Oral Answers to Questions

Brandon Lewis Excerpts

Wednesday 27th October 2021 Commons Chamber

[Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP)]

1. What progress the Government have made on negotiating a permanent settlement on the Northern Ireland protocol with the EU.

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Brandon Lewis)]

We have been in discussions with the EU since the publishing of the EU’s proposals on 13 October in response to our Command Paper from July. We are seeking to understand the detail of some of the headline claims that the EU has made on issues such as sanitary and phytosanitary measures and customs checks. We continue to work closely with the EU and are hopeful that we will be able to bridge any gaps between our positions.

[Carol Monaghan]

The law firm Carson McDowell has said that not one business has raised concerns about the European Court of Justice or its role as the court of ultimate appeal under the Northern Ireland protocol, so why are the UK Government prioritising a Brexit purity issue as their key demand in negotiations with the EU when it is completely immaterial to businesses in Northern Ireland?

[Brandon Lewis]

Actually, a whole range of businesses and business groups, as they are working through the detail of the EU’s proposals, have concerns about whether they cover enough to deal with the issues in Northern Ireland. That is why it is important that we have these negotiations. For us, it is also important, and ultimately important for business, to ensure that the mechanism to deal with any issues is one that is licensed there and more traditional in international agreements and transactions. The role of the ECJ, as we have seen already this year, does not provide that, and ultimately, therefore, does not provide stability for Northern Ireland businesses or indeed the political structure of Stormont. It is therefore important that we make sure that that is resolved to have a proper working solution.

[Louise Haigh (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab)]

Why has Brussels seen the legal text on the changes that the Government want to make to the protocol but the democratic leaders of Northern Ireland are still completely in the dark? Will the Secretary of State urgently share that text with them?

[Brandon Lewis]

This is a legal text we have shared with the EU, as we did with the papers we published earlier this year, which sadly we did not have too much feedback from the EU about. This is about engaging with the EU in a confidential manner to allow the space for these private negotiations and discussions to go ahead. It is right that we do that and do those negotiations in a proper, business-like way.

[Louise Haigh]

It is quite important that we have feedback from Northern Ireland as well. Not only will the Secretary of State not share that text with those I mentioned, but politicians, communities and businesses in Northern Ireland are completely excluded from the negotiations. Does he accept that it is not sustainable for a Secretary of State to say to the people of Northern Ireland, “We have decided what is best for you—take it or leave it”? Will he therefore move the talks to Belfast and give Northern Ireland’s politicians a seat at the table?

[Brandon Lewis]

I am happy to let the hon. Lady know that the reality of what is happening is quite different from what she outlined. The politicians in Northern Ireland are involved, and not just here in this House: only yesterday Lord Frost and I engaged with both the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, as we are doing on a regular, pretty much weekly, basis. We have also engaged with businesses all the way through, via the Business Engagement Forum—indeed, I met business representatives on Friday last week—so that they, and civic society, are fully involved with feeding into the negotiations, which of course, absolutely, are quite rightly between the UK Government and the EU.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that we need to see the removal of the Irish sea border on the movement of goods within the UK internal market between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and that tinkering around the edges of the protocol without removing these unnecessary checks and impediments to trade within the United Kingdom is totally unacceptable?

[Brandon Lewis]

I agree with the right hon. Gentleman; he is absolutely right. This is a point about consistency. We need to ensure that we have that free movement of goods—that goods are moving from Great Britain across to Northern Ireland for use and consumption in Northern Ireland—recognising also that we have a responsibility about goods moving into the EU. We are determined to deliver that. Sadly, the Opposition have been quite clear previously that they are happy to see a border between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. We are absolutely categorical about the fact that we want to ensure that goods can move freely and goods that are being consumed and used by the people of Northern Ireland can reach them in good order and in good time, as they should do and as we are determined to see happen.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I thank the Secretary of State for that answer. Does he also agree that in addition to resolving the trading issues and removing the Irish sea border, he and the Government need to pursue the full restoration of article 6 of the Acts of Union, which makes it very clear that there should be no barriers to trade within the United Kingdom and that there should be respect to the principle of consent, which is at the heart of the Belfast agreement?

[Brandon Lewis]

The right hon. Gentleman will, I know, be aware that this issue is subject to legal proceedings, so I hope he will excuse me being relatively brief in my reply. I reiterate our commitment in the Command Paper that we need to remove the burden on trade and goods with the UK and to ensure that businesses and consumers in Northern Ireland can continue to have full and normal access to goods from the rest of the UK. It is also worth colleagues across this House remembering that not only does New Decade, New Approach ensure that we have that full internal market in the UK, but the protocol that was agreed, in its principles, is very clear that it would not only not disrupt the everyday lives of people in their communities in Northern Ireland, as is currently a problem, but will respect the internal market of the United Kingdom. We are determined to deliver on that objective.

[Richard Thomson (Gordon) (SNP)]

Lord Frost recently said that there could be “no role” for the European Court of Justice in arbitrating disputes around the protocol. If that genuinely now represents the view of the UK Government, in contrast to when they negotiated and signed that protocol, can the Secretary of State tell the House how he would prefer to see disputes arising from the protocol arbitrated and settled? If he cannot share the text with politicians in Northern Ireland or in this House, can he at least give us a clue about what the outline of such a solution might be?

[Brandon Lewis]

As the hon. Gentleman may be aware, there are different mechanisms for arbitration where there are disagreements between parties about things that have been agreed in international arrangements, including the withdrawal agreement itself. Those are working very well. What we have seen this year is how the EU has used the ECJ, even with the infraction proceedings around the processes we had to take forward in March to ensure that we could continue to get goods to Northern Ireland. It shows a very one-sided approach to this matter. It does not work, including for the stability for the Northern Ireland, and it is right we correct that. We have outlined that in the Command Paper, and that is part of the negotiations we will be having with the EU.

[Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)]

2. What recent discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on the implementation of the Northern Ireland protocol.

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Brandon Lewis)]

I meet regularly with Cabinet colleagues to discuss Northern Ireland-related matters, including issues surrounding the Northern Ireland protocol, where it is vital that we find more productive and sustainable arrangements to deliver more effectively on the protocol’s objectives. It is worth remembering that it is clear that the protocol should protect the integral place of Northern Ireland in the UK’s internal market, minimise the impact on the lives of citizens, maintain the necessary conditions for north/south co-operation, and, importantly, protect the Belfast/Good Friday agreement in all its strands.

[Andrew Jones]

There are high volumes of trade between businesses in Northern Ireland and Yorkshire, including in Harrogate and Knaresborough. Many different business sectors are involved, but food and drink is particularly prominent, and I have had concerning reports of excess bureaucracy affecting trade. What steps is my right hon. Friend taking to ensure that business and trade flows as smoothly as possible?

[Brandon Lewis]

My hon. Friend makes an important point that has been echoed by the business community, the hospitality industry and the food and drink industry in Northern Ireland, even just late last week. It is something we need to resolve. That is why it is important we continue the work, as part of the discussions we are having with the EU, to deliver on what we set out in our July Command Paper as a way to resolve the issues over the protocol.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

The Northern Ireland protocol is still causing significant damage in Northern Ireland and great anger for those who are impacted by it. Whether Ministers want to believe it or not, we are heading towards a constitutional crisis in Northern Ireland if the issue is not resolved. Does the Minister accept that the only reason we have checks and a debate about the European Court of Justice having a role in Northern Ireland is because Northern Ireland is now subject to EU law? Unless that issue is dealt with, the Northern Ireland protocol problems will not be resolved.

[Brandon Lewis]

The right hon. Gentleman makes an important point, further highlighting the issues around the European Court of Justice. At present, we have a system where EU laws are imposed on Northern Ireland without the consent of anyone in Northern Ireland—he is absolutely right. The challenges and disputes about these laws are also settled in the Court, only one of the two signatory parties to the protocol, and that obviously came before the wider trade agreement. The CJEU sits at the apex of the system. In addition to causing an imbalance in the equilibrium of east-west and north-south arrangements, we believe the oversight is not necessary. To preserve the structure and the gains that we have seen through the peace process of 23 years in Northern Ireland, we believe they must be replaced by something much more in keeping with the intentions of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement and traditional international trade agreements.

[Simon Jupp (East Devon) (Con)]

3. What steps his Department is taking to address the legacy of the Troubles.

[Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab)]

4. What plans he has to bring forward legislative proposals to address Northern Ireland legacy issues. [R]

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Brandon Lewis)]

The Government will bring forward legislation to address the Northern Ireland legacy issues very soon, focusing on information recovery and reconciliation.

[Simon Jupp]

East Devon is home to many veterans who proudly served their country, risking everything while following orders. Can my right hon. Friend assure me that in his forthcoming legislation, we will stand by our promise to end vexatious claims against those who served in Northern Ireland?

[Brandon Lewis]

The Government are absolutely committed to fulfilling their manifesto commitments to provide certainty to the many veterans who served courageously to defend the rule of law during the long years of the troubles. I can give my hon. Friend and his constituents the reassurance that we will deliver on our manifesto pledge, but we are also clear that this is about ensuring that we are addressing the needs of victims and veterans at the same time.

[Dan Jarvis]

I offer my sympathies to the families of Dennis Hutchings and John Pat Cunningham during what must be an incredibly difficult period for them. The last time I raised the forthcoming Bill, I was told that veterans were being consulted. The Secretary of State will therefore be aware that a range of views are held, including in Northern Ireland where many oppose a blanket amnesty. Will he commit to continued close engagement with veterans to fully understand the views of those who served?

[Brandon Lewis]

I join the hon. Gentleman in offering my condolences and thoughts to those families. As in the rest of our engagement, we have heard a range of views from across the community, particularly on that side of the discussion from the veterans community. We are considering that carefully.

We have always been clear that dealing with the past in Northern Ireland must equally address the needs of victims and veterans. I am happy to restate the answer that I gave the hon. Gentleman previously and say that we will continue to engage closely with veterans groups across Great Britain and Northern Ireland as we seek to bring in legislation to address those important, complex and sensitive issues.

[Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con)]

After more than four years, two general election manifestos and a hand-signed promise in The Sun newspaper from the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State has delivered nothing. My question is very straightforward: “Where is your Bill, Brandon?”

[Brandon Lewis]

I appreciate that my right hon. Friend has campaigned on the issue for a long time and he has been forthright in his determination to deliver for the veterans community. We set out our Command Paper in July just before the summer recess. As we said we would, we have been engaging with interested parties in the past couple of months, including not just the veterans community but victims, civic society and, more widely, the political parties in Northern Ireland. As we said in the Command Paper, we are still focused on delivering legislation to the House this autumn.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

Can the Secretary of State tell the House clearly which of the groups representing the families of victims that he has met have agreed with his proposals?

[Brandon Lewis]

As I said when I launched the Command Paper, we appreciate that it is a very sensitive and complex issue that will affect a huge range of people. We have had wide engagement across victims groups and with victims who are not represented by groups. We are taking on that feedback at the moment and we will come forward with proposals very soon.

[Sarah Atherton (Wrexham) (Con)]

My constituent Edward Vaughan-Jones’ brother Robert, 2 Para, died at Warrenpoint in 1979. Some 42 years later, the family’s wounds have not healed due to repeated investigations and a lack of conclusion. Can my right hon. Friend outline when Mr Vaughan-Jones will receive a conclusive report on his brother’s death so that he can finally have some sense of closure?

[Brandon Lewis]

My deepest sympathies are with Mr Vaughan-Jones and the many other families who have waited far too long to get answers about the circumstances of their loved ones’ deaths. We are determined that part of the process of information recovery will mean that families get the answers that they have not had. They have waited far too long and we need to resolve that issue soon.

[Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)]

5. What recent assessment his Department has made of the impact of the (a) UK leaving the EU and (b) Northern Ireland protocol on the haulage industry in Northern Ireland.

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Brandon Lewis)]

Many of the same supply chain issues experienced in Northern Ireland are seen across the United Kingdom. We are seeing a shortage of HGV drivers across all supply chains. The Government have introduced a range of solutions to ease the pressures across the UK. We are separately in intensive discussions with the European Union to find solutions to the current issues that are being caused by how the protocol is being applied. The haulage sector has been impacted and we continue to engage with it to understand the issues it is facing to ensure that the work we do with the EU gets a resolution that works for it.

[Patricia Gibson]

Logistics UK, which represents 400 haulage operators in Northern Ireland and is responsible for 90% of goods transferred across the Irish sea, welcomed the EU’s proposals to improve the Northern Ireland protocol as a “leap of faith” and a positive step. Why have the UK Government refused to accept those proposals and instead insisted on sinking the negotiations with ideological demands rather than practical considerations?

[Brandon Lewis]

Again, I am afraid that I need to correct the hon. Lady’s misunderstanding of the situation. I met representatives of the haulage association on Friday who are clear that having looked at the details of the EU proposal, it does not work and it is not enough. They are much more focused on what we outlined in the Command Paper. We need to resolve those issues and I hope that, in the conversation with the EU—it has moved, which we welcome—we will get enough movement to deal with the issues that have been raised by the haulage industry, even those raised on Friday of last week.

[James Daly (Bury North) (Con)]

6. What steps the Government are taking to create jobs and attract investment in Northern Ireland.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Brandon Lewis)]

I continue to work closely with the whole of the Executive and the political party leaders on the issues that matter most to the people of Northern Ireland. Obviously, the promise of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement for devolved government locally accountable to the people of Northern Ireland must never be forgotten and is hugely important in making sure we deliver on the promise of a stable and genuinely co-operative Executive, built on respectful relationships and trust. That is where stability comes from and that is what I hope to see continue in Northern Ireland.

[Liz Twist]

Threats to collapse the Assembly hang over Northern Ireland and the Secretary of State is sleepwalking towards a political crisis. Key safeguards have still not reached the statute book 22 months on. Northern Ireland simply cannot afford this, so will the Secretary of State fast track the legislation through the House of Lords and commit to passing it in the coming weeks so there is at least a caretaker Executive in place?

[Brandon Lewis]

It was disappointing in the summer when one of the political parties tried to bring down Stormont with various threats about what it was going to do. At the moment it is important that we see stability at Stormont. We had the legislation yesterday in the Chamber and I am sad the hon. Lady was unable to join us on something she clearly cares about. It is important that we see stability there, working with all the parties and making sure they are delivering on what the people of Northern Ireland care about. That has to be the main focus and the legislation going through the House at the moment will help with that, but the way we keep stability at Stormont is around not legislation in Westminster but the political parties at Stormont focusing on working together to reform education, healthcare and the other issues that matter for the people in Northern Ireland.

[Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP)]

9. What progress the Government are making on implementing the commitments set out in the New Decade, New Approach agreement.