Combined Authorities (Mayoral Elections) (Amendment) Order 2022
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Baroness Scott of Bybrook
That the Grand Committee do consider the Combined Authorities (Mayoral Elections) (Amendment) Order 2022.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Baroness Scott of Bybrook) (Con)
My Lords, I will also speak to the draft Local Authorities (Mayoral Elections) (England and Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2022, and the draft Police and Crime Commissioner Elections and Welsh Forms (Amendment) Order 2022.
These instruments were laid before this House on 1 and 3 November 2022. If approved and made, they will amend existing secondary legislation to take account of a change made by the Elections Act 2022. That change was to bring in first past the post voting for the election of mayors and police and crime commissioners, replacing the supplementary vote system, which is currently used for those elections. The change in principle was expressly tested during the passage of the Elections Act by an amendment brought to a vote on Report, and this House determined that the change should remain part of the Act.
The statutory instruments before us today are an essential consequence of that change. Elections to the roles of combined authority mayor, local authority mayor, and police and crime commissioner all rely on similar provisions in legislation for their conduct, forms and ballot papers. For this reason, we are considering these three statutory instruments amending those provisions together today.
For elections to be conducted consistently and fairly, it is necessary for secondary legislation to prescribe their conduct and to provide templates for many of the key documents that will be used in those elections. These measures will provide support to council officers and act as an assurance to the voting public: everywhere these elections are held, they are undertaken using the same ballot papers, with no variation in the form of that ballot paper from one place to the next.
Under first past the post, mayoral and PCC elections will no longer require a second round of counting in the circumstances where no candidate receives more than 50% of the vote. These statutory instruments will amend legislation to reflect the new, simpler count process. Ballot papers are changing too, showing one column of boxes against the listed candidates, with voters directed to put a cross in the box next to a single choice. Detailed instructions for the printing of ballot papers and forms, and instructions for postal voting, are also amended to reflect the change to first past the post.
Without these statutory instruments being approved and made, election officers will not be able to effectively deliver elections for these roles. The provision of the Elections Act 2022 making this change is now in force and the change will first apply to any mayoral or PCC elections or by-elections held on or after the ordinary election day in May 2023. That is 4 May 2023, being the first Thursday in May. An instrument subject to the negative resolution procedure, making similar changes for elections to the Mayor of London, was made on 26 October and laid before Parliament on 31 October. That instrument is now in force and will first apply to any by-election or elections held on or after 4 May 2023.
In drafting these instruments, my department and the Home Office have consulted the Electoral Commission on the text and we are grateful to it for its technical comments, which we have taken into account.
In conclusion, these instruments are essential to ensure that council officers can properly implement the move to first past the post voting for elected mayors and police and crime commissioners. That change, which Parliament has approved, will mean easier voting for these posts, with more straightforward counting of votes and with clearer, quicker results. I beg to move.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for setting out the instruments so clearly. She has already answered one of my questions.
I have always been in favour of combined authorities and the devo deals that we have been seeing. I realise that this is beyond the scope of these instruments, but it has brought new dimensions of government and administration to swathes of the countryside. I applaud that. This has been happening not only in urban areas but in rural areas too. Can the Minister indulge us by updating the Committee on where we are on devolution deals—on Cornwall and Yorkshire, for example? I simply do not know. I am happy for this to be done in writing, particularly as it is beyond the scope of these instruments, if she cannot do so now.
I will not delay the Committee long. I had one more substantial question related to today’s orders and regulations. I appreciate that they are largely about first past the post for combined authorities and local government, which is consistent with the referendum held on voting systems under the coalition Government. However, in the United Kingdom today, we have myriad different electoral arrangements, particularly in Wales, where we seemingly have some anomalies, such as the voting age for local elections now being 16 while for police and crime commissioners it is 18. Can my noble friend the Minister say something about the Government’s thinking across the board?
Westminster retains some important legislative and administrative rights in relation to electoral arrangements, which now seem to be a smorgasbord of different positions, particularly in Wales, where the Senedd elections are done by a form of proportional representation—the additional member system—while police and crime commissioner elections are first past the post. Local government is now partly first past the post, but local authorities can, if they want, go down a different route with the single transferrable vote. There are some inconsistencies. Can the Minister say something on that? I am most grateful.
Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)
First, I refer noble Lords to my entry in the register, which states that I am still a local councillor in Burnley.
The regulations and orders under consideration today will bring forward first past the past for a range of elections. While I disagree that this policy should be the focus of the Government’s attention amid the cost of living crisis, these instruments would implement a decision already made as part of the Elections Act. For that reason, I shall not return to the same arguments made during the debates on that legislation, but I have a series of brief questions, which I hope the Minister can answer.
First, the Explanatory Memorandum and the debate in the other House seem to suggest that the only consultation was with the Electoral Commission. Can the Minister confirm this? Does that mean that no local authorities were engaged as part of this process? Did the Government speak to the Association of Electoral Administrators? Secondly, the memorandum says that this will save £7.3 million. Can the Minister explain this figure? Finally, when will the public awareness campaign begin so that voters in May know that they must change how they vote at the ballot box? I hope the Minister can provide assurances and, as always, I look forward to her response.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
I thank noble Lords for their contributions to the debate. It is probably best if I go through the speakers in turn. First, I agree with my noble friend Lord Bourne that we have elections in a lot of different ways, across the United Kingdom. There are two points for me. First, the Elections Act 2022 started to make sure that many, at least in England, were more similar. There is nothing we can do about, for example, the Welsh Government and the way they have their elections; that responsibility is devolved to them, apart from for general elections. We can only talk to them, but that is what devolution is all about and we welcome those changes.
As for devolution in this country, the Chancellor’s Autumn Statement mentioned a number of authorities that were looking at different ways of combining so that they could have devolved responsibilities. I will get an updated briefing on that, let my noble friend have it and put a copy in the Library, because things in that area are moving quite fast and I should like him to have that up-to-date information.
I thank my noble friend Lord Hayward; I have noted the Gould principles. We just need to remember that returning officers need plenty of time and notice to make some of these changes to elections: they have to make different order forms and ballot papers, and train staff, if things change. The Gould principles can be flexible, as we have seen, but a certain amount of time is needed and we should be getting this through as soon as possible for May 2023.
Moving on to a number of questions from the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, the voting system used to elect our representatives sits at the heart of our democracy and is of fundamental importance to the Government. We were elected on a manifesto that included a commitment to continue to support the first past the post voting system. The Government believe that that system is a robust and secure way of electing representatives that is well understood by voters and provides for strong and clear local accountability. It also ensures a clear link between elected representatives and constituents in a manner that other voting systems may not.
The Government’s manifesto position in favour of first past the post also reflects that in the 2011 referendum there was a significant vote, as the noble Baroness will remember, in favour of retaining first past the post for parliamentary elections, when the proposal to introduce a transferable vote system—the alternative vote—was rejected by a majority of 67.9% of voters. Voters have had their say. It is simple and understood, and the Government have made it very clear in our manifesto that we support it and will move forward by changing any elections that we can to make those systems simpler.
The noble Baroness also brought up challenging spoiled ballots in other electoral methods. To give your Lordships an example, around 5% of votes cast in the May 2021 election for the Mayor of London, under the existing supplementary vote system, were rejected. The noble Baroness said that it is normally about 1%, but 5% is five times that. The Electoral Commission report of 2015 on the general election found that the percentage of votes rejected in the supplementary vote elections, held on the same day as the general election, was 12 times higher than for the first past the post vote.
Baroness Pinnock (LD)
Does the Minister have a breakdown of the spoiled ballot papers? As she will know, having been involved in elections for many years, rejected ballot papers are spoiled for a number of reasons. Sometimes voters do it deliberately, writing “None of the above” or words to that effect—sometimes quite strong words—or deliberately voting for every candidate. Those papers are spoiled not because the voter does not understand but because they reject all the candidates who are standing or for other reasons. Lumping it all together like that does not reflect validly what went on. I gave an example from Wakefield district where less than 1% were rejected for valid reasons of obviously not understanding the way the election system worked.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
The noble Baroness is quite right: the issue of spoiled ballots is complex. Ballots can be spoiled for many reasons. This can also reflect how the electorate is feeling at the time. I think we have all seen that when we have been closely involved in elections.
The noble Baroness also brought up the issue of savings. The savings referred to in the Explanatory Notes are from the findings of the impact assessment. As a responsible Government, we always undertake impact assessments. The decision was taken to do that assessment on the principle of FPTP. There is a saving, and we have to communicate that.
The noble Baroness also raised PCC elections and turnout. I quite agree with her. However, I am not sure that it is up to the Government to ensure that our communities and the electorate understand the work of PCCs. I would challenge PCCs and suggest that they need to get out and tell their communities what they are doing on their behalf. They have been around a long time. The percentage turnout is increasing, but I agree with the noble Baroness that it is not increasing enough, given the important work that they do.
I move on to the questions from the noble Lord, Lord Khan. The Electoral Commission was the only consultee, because it was a technical consultation. We just wanted to make sure that all the wording and technicalities were correct. The Electoral Commission will issue guidance to explain the votes and exactly what has to be done, and it will do it as soon as secondary legislation is available. As part of the Bill itself, we made it clear that any differences to the way our electoral system works had to be communicated. This will be done in plenty of time for the elections in May next year.
I have mentioned the impact assessment and the £7.3 million. It is published—this is something that we do. I am very happy to share that impact assessment, if the noble Lord would like to see it. We will let him have it, so that he has all the detail.
These orders and regulations will mean that the decision which Parliament has taken, that mayoral and PCC elections should be on a first-past-the-post basis, can be implemented effectively. They are an essential element in the legal framework sustaining our local democracy. Therefore, I commend the instruments to the Committee.
Local Authorities (Mayoral Elections) (England and Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2022
Baroness Scott of Bybrook Excerpts(2 years ago)
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Baroness Scott of Bybrook
That the Grand Committee do consider the Local Authorities (Mayoral Elections) (England and Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2022.
Police and Crime Commissioner Elections and Welsh Forms (Amendment) Order 2022
Baroness Scott of Bybrook Excerpts(2 years ago)
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Baroness Scott of Bybrook
That the Grand Committee do consider the Police and Crime Commissioner Elections and Welsh Forms (Amendment) Order 2022.
Renters Reform Bill
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Baroness Scott of Bybrook) (Con)
The Government’s consultation on introducing a decent homes standard to the private rented sector closed on 14 October. We are considering the responses carefully and will publish our response to the consultation as soon as we can. In the meantime, the Government have committed to ban Section 21 no-fault evictions to protect tenants and will introduce a renters reform Bill in this Parliament.
Baroness Thornhill (LD)
I thank the Minister for that definitive Answer. As we were promised it in 2022-23, this definitely feels like a disappointing push-back of the much-needed reform of the private rented sector, which I and many others look forward to, as there is much work to do. For example, last week in the Budget the Chancellor said that rent hikes of 11% were unaffordable and acted to cap rent rises faced by social tenants. However, private landlords are still free to charge the going market rent and, according to Zoopla, this has increased nationally by 12% in the past year. In the same Budget, the Government chose to freeze—
Baroness Thornhill (LD)
I will get to my question; I note that noble Lords have been more liberal with other speakers. In the same Budget, the Government chose yet again to freeze housing benefit and local housing allowance levels. Does the Minister believe that this is fair, as it disproportionately affects private renters? Are there plans to review these levels? Given that private tenants are likely to pay higher rents than their social sector counterparts, does she agree that they too deserve protection from unaffordable rent rises?
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
My Lords, the Government do not support the introduction of rent controls in the private rented sector. Historically, evidence suggests that this would discourage investment in the sector and lead to declining property standards as a result, which would not help either landlords or tenants. Recent international examples also suggest that rent controls can have an invertedly negative impact on the supply of housing and may encourage more illegal subletting.
Lord Mackenzie of Framwellgate (Non-Afl)
My Lords, I am aware of many landlords who own one property which they use for letting purposes, and it amounts to their sole income. Does the Minister therefore agree that a one-size-fits-all rent freeze could damage those who rely on rental income to service their ever-increasing mortgages, thereby damaging the rental sector altogether?
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
My Lords, I think that is exactly what I have said. We need a balance here, in order for landlords to still provide this sector, which is an extremely important sector, and in the renters reform Bill that is coming forward I am sure that we will discuss that in further detail.
Lord Carrington (CB)
My Lords, whilst welcoming an enormous amount that is in the proposed legislation, I am very concerned about the capacity of the courts to undertake the justified evictions under Section 8. Currently, the waiting times are simply enormous, and this is putting off a lot of private landlords.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
The noble Lord makes a very good point. When court action is needed for landlords to gain possession of their properties, the courts should provide fair and efficient access to justice. We are working with the judiciary, the Ministry of Justice and HM Courts & Tribunals Service to introduce reforms to make the possession process much more efficient for landlords, while maintaining essential protections for tenants built into the court processes.
Lord Blackwell (Con)
My Lords, I declare my interest as an owner of rented properties. Following on from that last question, will my noble friend undertake that, in seeking to protect tenants from a minority of unscrupulous landlords, they will not make it impossible for proper landlords to regain their properties from tenants who may be behaving inappropriately?
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
My noble friend is right that we need a balance in this, and the way we are going to get a balance is through good debate on the Bill that is coming forward in this Parliament. We will have all those discussions and, hopefully, we will get something at the end which is balanced—for landlords but also, most importantly, for tenants.
The Lord Bishop of London
My Lords, rents in London are up to double the level of rents elsewhere in the UK. Crisis has warned that the number of people sleeping rough in London has risen by a quarter in just one year, and more than half of those spotted on the streets are sleeping rough for the first time. What are the Government doing to prevent those who are struggling to pay their increasing rents from falling into homelessness?
Baroness Scott of Bybrook
My Lords, we have a number of interventions that can be used that the Chancellor brought in, both for people that are struggling with their rents and people who are struggling with household bills as a whole; that was all laid out in the Chancellor’s Statement last week. As far as homelessness is concerned, we are providing local authorities with £316 million in the homelessness prevention grant funding, and we are encouraging local authorities to use that flexibly, because it will not be the same in London as it is in other areas of the country.
Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)
My Lords, the Government’s own White Paper admits that the private rented sector
“offers the most expensive, least secure, and lowest quality housing”
to nearly 4.5 million households. Will the Government introduce a new renters’ charter to give tenants more choice and more control over their homes?
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
My Lords, if it is in the White Paper, we will see whether it comes through into the Bill and will discuss that. I am sure that if the noble Baroness tables any amendments, we will discuss those in full.
Lord Best (CB)
My Lords, I recognise that the Government are not going to introduce a freeze for the private rented sector or the social housing sector, but there is a cap on rents for social housing landlords, housing associations and councils. That cap means that they will not be getting the revenue they expected if they have the full increase in their rents. The main beneficiaries of this are the Government and Treasury, because housing benefit will be reduced—so the autumn Statement tells us—by £650 million. Will this windfall gain of £650 million for the Treasury over the next five years be recycled or reinvested back into social housing, where it is very badly needed, to upgrade the stock and build new homes?
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
The Government are already investing in social housing; we are putting £11.5 billion into building social housing. Some of the money from the windfall, as the noble Lord called it—I would not call it that—will go into that. There is also support going to local authorities to support those in the private rented sector who might have problems this winter and whom we might need to help out.
Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con)
My Lords, following the tragic death of Awaab Ishak due to fungus growing in a family apartment, will my noble friend the Minister agree to a review of the Homes (Fitness for Human Habitation) Act 2018 to stop this ever happening in the private rented sector?
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
As we discussed in a lot of detail last week, this was an extremely sad and very disturbing case. On whether we will look at the healthy homes standard again, I think we will now wait to see if it is going to be in the renters reform Bill. In the meantime, the Secretary of State wrote to all local authorities this week to insist that they look at their stock, so that we as a department and a Government know exactly what is happening in our social housing stock as far as mould and damp are concerned.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)
My Lords, one reason why low-income tenants are struggling with their rents is that the local housing allowance has been frozen. Can the Minister explain why?
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
We have to understand that this country is in an economically difficult time, and very difficult decisions have to be made. If we look at what was given to very vulnerable groups of people in the Statement last week, I think noble Lords will agree that the Government are doing all they possibly can—
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
No—the Government are doing all they can to support these people and help them, both now and if they have problems as the winter goes on.
Ballot Secrecy Bill [HL]
Baroness Scott of Bybrook ExcerptsFriday 18th November 2022
(2 years, 1 month ago)
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“Amendment of the Representation of the People Act 1983In the Representation of the People Act 1983, before section 63 insert—“62C Influencing voters at polling booths(1) A person who—(a) is with another person at a polling booth, and (b) intends to influence that other person to vote in a particular way or to refrain from voting,commits an offence.(2) A person who—(a) is near a polling booth when another person is at that booth, and(b) intends to influence that other person to vote in a particular way or to refrain from voting,commits an offence.(3) For the purposes of this section—(a) a “polling booth” is a compartment in a polling station in which voters can mark votes screened from observation;(b) assisting a person with voting, in accordance with rule 39 of Schedule 1 or any other legislation, is not influencing that person to vote in a particular way or to refrain from voting;(c) a person may be near one polling booth while at a different polling booth.(4) A person who commits an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction—(a) in England and Wales, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months, to a fine or to both;(b) in Scotland or Northern Ireland, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months, to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale or to both.(5) This section does not have effect in relation to an election in Scotland or Wales under the local government Act.””Member's explanatory statement
This amendment replaces the provision in Clause 1.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Baroness Scott of Bybrook) (Con)
My Lords, in moving Amendment 1, I shall speak also to my Amendments 2, 3 and 4. I am pleased to say that the Government are supporting the Bill introduced by my noble friend Lord Hayward. In doing so, we have tabled Amendments 1 to 4 to address issues with the drafting of the Bill, to ensure that the provisions are proportionate and to avoid any unintended consequences. The Government have worked with my noble friend in preparing the amendments and I am grateful for his support and expertise in resolving these matters.
My noble friend’s Bill arises from concerns over so-called family voting; that is, family members accompanying voters into a polling booth in a polling station for the apparent purpose of influencing or guiding how they cast their vote. I draw noble Lords’ attention to the report published by Democracy Volunteers on the May 2022 elections, which highlighted instances of this practice. It was reported that staff in polling stations were reluctant to intervene when they saw it occurring. These findings are clearly a cause for concern.
We have listened to the concerns raised by noble Lords on this issue at Second Reading. The Government share these concerns and are committed to safeguarding our democracy against those who would harm it. We consider it important to ensure that there is clarity in the law on this issue, and that presiding officers in polling stations have confidence to challenge inappropriate behaviour where it occurs.
I will now set out the details of changes made by the amendments. Amendment 1 proposes a new clause which replaces the current Clause 1 and makes changes to the wording of the offence provisions in the Bill as currently drafted. Under the new clause, a person would commit an offence if they are with a voter in a polling booth and/or are near a polling booth when that voter is in that booth, with the intent of influencing that person to vote in a particular way or to refrain from voting.
The amendments are drafted to avoid the offence criminalising innocent behaviour, particularly where two voters are in a polling booth but only one intends to influence the other. By adding the requirement for intent, the offence as amended would capture the would-be offender and avoid capturing the victim. The amended clause provides that a formal companion who has completed the necessary paperwork, or a presiding officer assisting a disabled voter, would not be subject to the offence when acting in that capacity. This gives reassurance that disabled voters will continue to be able to have assistance when voting, where necessary.
The offences in the current draft of the Bill are described as “corrupt practice” and the penalties for them are out of step with those for existing secrecy offences in electoral law. The amendments therefore provide that a person found guilty of the offence on summary conviction will be liable to up to six months in prison or a fine, or both, creating consistency across legislation. The amendments remove from the Bill the exemption from the offence for persons aged under 18. The offence would apply if a person above the age of criminal responsibility seeks to influence a voter. I reassure noble Lords that the approach being taken is consistent with the drafting of other electoral offences and does not prevent a child accompanying a parent into a polling station.
The amendments provide that the measures apply to UK parliamentary elections and local elections in England. Under the amendments, the Bill will not now apply to local elections in Scotland and Wales, which are the responsibility of the devolved Administrations in Scotland and Wales, but we are making the devolved Administrations aware of our plans to update the law in this area and will encourage them to consider taking similar steps in relation to their own elections.
Amendment 2 introduces a new clause that applies the offence provisions to local elections in Northern Ireland and elections to the Northern Ireland Assembly. These elections are excepted matters and outside the competence of the Northern Ireland Assembly, and the Government consider that the new offences should apply also to these polls.
Amendment 3 makes necessary changes to Clause 2. In particular, it provides that the measures in the Bill will come into force on such a day or days to be set in regulations by the Secretary of State. This will ensure that there is sufficient time for Electoral Commission guidance to be updated and polling station officials to have training on the new offence before it comes into force.
Amendment 4 amends the Long Title of the Bill to align it with the provision made by the Bill as amended.
In conclusion, it is of fundamental importance to our democracy that voters are able to vote in secret without being coerced or having the threat of coercion. It is the Government’s view that the effect of the Bill as amended, once commenced, in combination with the existing law, is to empower presiding officers to deal with suspected offences under the Bill. This means that presiding officers will be able to ensure that voters are accompanied only by appointed companions acting in accordance with rule 39 of the parliamentary elections rules and the equivalent rules for other elections covered by the Bill, or by children under the supervision of the voter, and not by persons who may intend to influence the voter’s vote or infringe the voter’s right to vote in secret. I urge noble Lords to support these necessary amendments and I beg to move.
Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)
My Lords, I too thank the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, for introducing this stage of the Bill. I will be brief. At earlier stages, we debated the fact that standards matter and that they are particularly important in ensuring confidence in our voting system. Our laws need to be crystal clear and that is why the Bill is so important. It creates absolute clarity on what is and is not acceptable.
We supported the Bill at Second Reading and continue to do so. It is really good to see that the Government took the concerns raised earlier very seriously, brought forward amendments, which we strongly support, and will now support the Bill and enable it to move forward. We need to make sure that we have good, strong laws and an understanding of exactly what is acceptable when people vote in a polling station. We wish the Bill well and, like the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, we thank the Minister for her attention and for improving the Bill.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
I thank all noble Lords for their contributions but mainly for their support for what I consider a small but very important Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Rennard, was absolutely right: clarification is important in these matters. My amendments clarify and that is important. It is also important to ensure that we have no unintended consequences that would cause trouble, possibly to disabled people and through a lack of understanding of when children can enter the polling booth, et cetera.
I thank all noble Lords so much for their support. I hope we will get this Bill through as quickly as possible. Again, I urge all noble Lords to accept these amendments on behalf not only of myself and the Government but of the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, whom I thank for bringing the Bill to the House in the first place. As I said, it is an important Bill and I thank him for the work he has done with us on it.
“Amendment of Northern Ireland legislation(1) In the Electoral Law Act (Northern Ireland) 1962 (c. 14 (N.I.))—(a) in section 111, in subsection (2A), after paragraph (c) insert—“(ca) in the case of an offence under paragraph 26A of Schedule 9, on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months, to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale or to both;”;(b) in Part 3 of Schedule 9, after paragraph 26 insert—“26A “(1) A person who—(a) is with another person at a polling booth, and(b) intends to influence that other person to vote in a particular way or to refrain from voting,commits an offence.(2) A person who— (a) is near a polling booth when another person is at that booth, and(b) intends to influence that other person to vote in a particular way or to refrain from voting,commits an offence. (3) For the purposes of this paragraph—(a) a “polling booth” is a compartment in a polling station in which voters can mark votes screened from observation;(b) assisting a person with voting, in accordance with rule 36 of Schedule 5 or any other legislation, is not influencing that person to vote in a particular way or to refrain from voting;(c) a person may be near one polling booth while at a different polling booth.”(2) In Schedule 1 to the Northern Ireland Assembly (Elections) Order 2001 (S.I. 2001/2599), in the table, before the entry for section 63 of the Representation of the People Act 1983 insert—
“Section 62C (influencing voters at polling booths)”” |
“(1) Section (Amendment of the Representation of the People Act 1983), section (Amendment of Northern Ireland legislation)(2) and this section extend to England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.(2) Section (Amendment of Northern Ireland legislation)(1) extends to Northern Ireland only. (2A) This section comes into force on the day on which this Act is passed. (2B) The other provisions of this Act come into force on such day or days as the Secretary of State may, by regulations, appoint.(2C) Regulations under subsection (4) may appoint different days for different purposes or areas.(2D) The Secretary of State may, by regulations, make transitional, transitory or saving provision in connection with the coming into force of any provision of this Act.(2E) Regulations under subsection (6) may make different provision for different purposes or areas.(2F) Regulations under this section are to be made by statutory instrument.”Member's explanatory statement
This amendment provides for the extent and commencement of the new Clauses and for the making of transitional provision, etc., by regulations.
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment aligns the long title with the provision made by the Bill.
Housing Market
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Baroness Scott of Bybrook) (Con)
My Lords, I begin by saying thank you to the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick of Undercliffe, for the opportunity to debate this important issue. I know it is of considerable interest to many noble Lords and I am grateful for their contributions today.
I also give a very warm welcome to the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Stevenage. It is lovely to have somebody else from local government to join the little local government family we have in this Chamber. It is also nice to see her face to face, as I watch her most Sundays on the BBC Look East programme from my house in Norfolk and I feel I know her from that. It is lovely to see you, and I hope we can spend a bit of time together talking about things that are of interest to both of us.
The noble Lord, Lord Khan, is absolutely right: it is horrendous and totally unacceptable that Awaab Ishak died so tragically in a house in Rochdale—a house that was under social housing providers. We spoke about that last night and I do not want to talk about it much more, other than to say that the Secretary of State gave a very clear Statement in the other place yesterday, which I repeated in this Chamber. That said that we will continue to review everything to do with this case and make the necessary changes to ensure that it does not happen again. I said that yesterday and I repeat it today. As I also said yesterday, our thoughts and prayers are with Awaab’s family at this very difficult time.
A well-functioning housing system gives people the capacity to put down roots in their community and provides them with the confidence that their home will be safe and decent. The residential construction industry is an important contributor to our economic output, enabling movement of labour and productivity growth. Good housing, as the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, made very clear, gives people good health both physically and mentally. The Government accept that.
As my noble friends rightly pointed out, people across the country and across all tenures face housing challenges. Too many people are struggling to get a foothold on the housing ladder and too many houses are substandard. This Government do not underestimate the challenge ahead. We know that there are short-term challenges: mortgage rates and private rents have increased alongside other household bills. We are monitoring the situation closely and taking action where necessary. Our interventions have so far included the Government’s energy bills support package and further measures announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer today: an extension of the energy price guarantee beyond April, at an adjusted rate; additional cost of living payments, which will be made in 2023-24; and a 7% cap on the increase in social rents. But we heard today that longer-term challenges in the housing market also need to be addressed.
As today’s Autumn Statement shows, the Government are taking the decisions needed to ensure our strategy is fiscally responsible. We will also continue our work to address the longer-term structural issues in our housing system that are affecting people across all tenures. As we strive to build the homes people need, we must champion the needs of communities, provide the right infrastructure, preserve the green belt and protect our environment at the same time.
This Government have made significant progress in reforming the housing system. Levels of first-time buyers are now at a 20-year high. The supply of new homes reached 243,000 in 2019-20—a 30-year high. We are already seeing a steady improvement in the quality of homes and on building safety. The number of people sleeping on the streets in England is at an eight-year low. More than half a million households have been supported into secure accommodation since the landmark Homelessness Reduction Act came into force in 2018.
But, let me stress, there is a lot more to do. That is why we have committed to an ambitious housing mission as part of the Government’s overarching strategy on levelling up. The Levelling Up White Paper sets out the Government’s strategy to create a fair and just housing system that works for everyone, boosting home ownership and improving housing quality.
As I noted last week, during the debate on the Built Environment Committee’s report Meeting Housing Demand, housebuilding is a priority for this Government. I thank my noble friend Lord Lilley for his contribution, and I agree about the need to build more homes. There is compelling evidence that increasing the responsiveness of housing supply will help achieve better outcomes, including helping moderate house prices, provide for population growth and improve quality and choice.
In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, in the 2019 Conservative manifesto we committed to continue working towards delivering 300,000 new homes a year. We have announced a £10 billion investment in housing supply since the start of this Parliament. Our housing supply interventions are due ultimately to unlock more than 1 million new homes during the current Parliament and beyond.
To help diversify the housebuilding industry, as part of this investment, we have launched the £1.5 billion levelling up home building fund. This fund provides loans to SME builders, developers, self and custom-builders and innovators, to deliver 42,000 homes. It will support SME developers to grow their businesses, deliver new homes and create a more diverse housing market. We are also embracing modern methods of construction that can help deliver good-quality new homes more quickly and more sustainably, with the potential to improve productivity in the industry.
The noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, also raised the important issue of social housing supply. We are continuing to invest in the delivery of affordable homes, including social rented and supported housing. Our £11.5 billion affordable homes programme will build tens of thousands of homes, helping first-time buyers to get on to the ladder, providing more stable, affordable rented options, including social rental, and delivering new supported housing for older, disabled and other vulnerable people. The Government remain committed to our 10-year vision for the reform of adult social care. We are taking forward proposals in the People at the Heart of Care White Paper.
Following today’s fiscal Statement, departments are reviewing specific spending plans. Details will be announced in due course.
The noble Baronesses, Lady Thornhill and Lady Taylor, both raised the matter of right to buy receipts. Since the reform of the housing revenue account and the introduction of self-financing in April 2012, a proportion of receipts is paid to the Treasury. These considerations remain important. There are no current plans to release anything further to councils from the settlement agreed in 2012. However, in the consultation issued alongside the social housing Green Paper we consulted councils as to what other flexibilities we could provide to enable them to build more quickly. In March 2021, we announced a package of flexibilities, including allowing five years to spend receipts and for replacements to be delivered as shared ownership or first homes.
The noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, referred specifically to the requirement that the right-to-buy receipts should not fund more than 40% of the cost of replacement properties. The intention of this cap is to maximise the number of new homes that can be delivered using right-to-buy receipts, with councils adding their own resources to this source of funding. In the package of flexibilities announced in March 2021, the Government increased the proportion of a replacement property that can be funded using right-to-buy receipts from 30% to 40%. It also increased the time limit for spending receipts from three to five years. This set of reforms, combined with the abolition of the housing borrowing caps in 2018, gives councils substantially increased flexibilities to build these replacement homes.
Our ongoing reforms to the planning system as set out in the Levelling Up White Paper will not only enable more beautiful, sustainable houses to be built but will ensure that local communities are at the heart of planning. Our homes must be built in the right places. To this end, we need to make the most use of suitable brownfield land to meet housing needs and regenerate our high streets and town centres. This is why the government policy provides strong encouragement for the take-up of brownfield sites and expects local authorities to prioritise suitable brownfield land for development. The £1.8 billion brownfield, infrastructure and land fund will unlock up to 160,000 new homes on derelict and underused land. The funding will boost local areas by transforming disused sites and investing in vital infrastructure to help create vibrant communities for people to live and work in. This will be achieved while protecting our cherished green spaces.
The noble Lord, Lord Best, raised the important work of Sir Oliver Letwin through his review of build-out. The Government acknowledge the conclusions of the Letwin review and agree that local authorities need more powers to support build-out. The Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill, which was introduced to Parliament on 11 May, will boost local authorities’ powers to manage development, ensuring that it works for communities as well as developers. The Bill will improve the system of locally-led development corporations to support local area plans for regeneration and growth and will include a range of important measures to accelerate the build-out of sites. It will replace the existing system for securing developer contributions with a new flat-rate infrastructure levy that will aim to capture land value uplift at a higher level than the current developer contribution regime, allowing local authorities to use the proceeds for providing the affordable housing and infrastructure that communities need. I can reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, that the levy will deliver at least as much, if not more, affordable housing than the current system of developer contributions. This will be secured through regulation and policy supported by the provisions in the Bill.
We are considering possible revisions to the NPPF to reflect wider changes to the planning system and will publish further details on this in due course. We are also testing innovative approaches to improving land value capture further through a government amendment which will allow a pilot of community land auctions. Participating piloting authorities will be able to invite landowners to submit a price at which they are willing to sell their land. Once that occurs, the authority will be able to consider the financial benefits of allocating land submitted in their local plan, and then auction the development rights where the land has been allocated. The LPA will be able to keep auction receipts to invest in infrastructure and affordable housing in its areas. I think we will discuss this a lot more when the LUR Bill comes to this House very shortly.
Our housing mission in the Levelling Up White Paper sets out that, by 2030, renters will have a secure path to ownership, with the number of first-time buyers increasing in all areas. Since spring 2010, over 800,000 households have been helped to purchase a home through government-backed schemes such as shared ownership and right to buy. In 2021, the annual first-time buyer numbers had reached a 20-year high at over 400,000. Our ongoing commitment to build new homes, including affordable homes, will support more households on to that ladder. Of course this is a difficult time for first-time buyers, which is why we are cutting stamp duty and delivering schemes such as first homes, which provides housing at a discount of at least 30%. We will continue to monitor the state of the mortgage market closely.
For those who bought homes only to find their experience of home ownership restricted by unfair leasehold practices, we are taking forward a programme of reform to improve the leasehold market. In 2022, we enacted the first part of legislative reforms: the Leasehold Reform (Ground Rent) Act. We intend to follow this up with further leasehold reforms later in this Parliament to make it easier and cheaper for leaseholders to buy their freehold, extend their leases, or take over management of their buildings. I will host an all-Peers round-table meeting to discuss leasehold reform on 6 December.
Across the private rented and social rented sectors, our levelling-up mission is to reduce the number of non-decent rented homes by 50% by 2030, with the biggest improvements in the lowest-performing areas. The private rented sector White Paper sets out a 12-point plan to provide a better deal for private renters, including abolishing Section 21 no-fault evictions and, in return, improving possession grounds for landlords. Legislating in this space remains a top priority for this Government, and, to return to the question of timing raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, yesterday, I say that we will bring forward legislation in this Parliament. We have also recently consulted on introducing a decent home standard in the PRS and are considering responses before setting out next steps.
In response to the point of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill, on freezing rent, I say that the Government do not support the introduction of rent controls in the private rented sector to set the level of rent at the outset of a tenancy. Historical evidence suggests that this would discourage investment in the sector and lead to declining property standards as a result, which would not help landlords or tenants. Recent international examples also suggest that rent controls can have an inadvertently negative impact on the supply of housing and may encourage more illegal subletting.
The social rented sector is equally at the heart of our housing mission in this country. As the Chancellor announced in the other place as part of his Autumn Statement, we have set a 7% ceiling on social housing rent increases next year, saving the average tenant £200. Having carefully reviewed the responses from our consultation on rent caps, our decision strikes an appropriate balance between protecting social tenants from high rent increases and ensuring that social landlords are able to continue to invest in new and existing social housing and to provide decent homes and the services that tenants require.
The housing White Paper sets out a wide range of measures which together will ensure that residents live in safe and decent homes, are treated with fairness and respect, and have their problems quickly resolved. The Social Housing (Regulation) Bill is part of our programme to deliver on those White Paper commitments. As your Lordships know, it is a short but radical Bill: that is what the sector needs and tenants deserve. I am immensely proud to have recently taken it through this House as a crucial element of the Government’s response to the terrible Grenfell tragedy. The Regulator of Social Housing—the body responsible for regulating social housing in England—will be taking a new, proactive approach to regulating social housing landlords on the issues which matter most to tenants. The Bill will drive significant change in how social landlords behave, forcing them to focus on the needs of their tenants. Where they do not do this, they will be robustly held to account.
The noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, also raised the issue of energy efficiency in social housing. We have committed to consulting on setting minimum energy-efficiency standards for the social rented sector within six months of the Social Housing (Regulation) Bill receiving Royal Assent. It is right that we give landlords the opportunity to feed in on the approach, including how they manage this within the context of competing pressures. We have also secured more than £1 billion to the social housing decarbonisation fund to support landlords so far, with a total of £3.8 billion committed within this Parliament.
After the tragedy of the Grenfell Tower fire, we are determined to learn the lessons of the past. We will ensure that residents of high-rise buildings are safe, accepting and implementing the findings of the Hackitt report. The Building Safety Act received Royal Assent on 28 April 2022, with ground-breaking reforms giving residents and home owners more powers and protections so that homes across the country are safer. It delivers far-reaching protections for qualifying leaseholders from the costs associated with remediating historical building safety defects and enables them to hold those responsible for building safety defects to account. The Act establishes three new bodies to provide effective oversight of the new regime: the building safety regulator, housed within the Health and Safety Executive, a national regulator of construction products, located in the Office for Product Safety and Standards, and the new homes ombudsman. Many of the detailed provisions within the Act will be implemented through a significant programme of secondary legislation.
Across all our work, we are focused on transitioning to net zero, in line with the Government’s 2050 targets. In 2025, we will introduce the future homes standard, which will ensure that all new homes produce 75% fewer carbon emissions than under current regulations, and that they are net-zero ready. We are also consulting on options to mandate assessment of, and limits to, whole-life carbon impacts of new construction in 2023.
For existing homes, the Government are investing £12 billion in help-to-heat schemes to ensure that homes are warmer, cheaper to heat and more efficient. In England alone, the average home below the Government’s target energy performance certificate C rating will spend over £550 more than one at the threshold; in total, that is £8 billion wasted per year. Therefore, the Chancellor, in his Autumn Statement today, announced a new national ambition to reduce the UK’s final energy consumption from buildings and industry by 15% by 2030 against 2021 levels.
I will go through this as quickly as possible, if noble Lords are happy for me to; they may want me to stop. I will just talk about homelessness and rough sleeping, because it is important. We are taking action to ensure that everyone has access to a good home. In the levelling-up White Paper, we set out our commitment to tackle homelessness and end rough sleeping for good. This is why we are investing £2 billion over the next three years into homelessness and rough sleeping.
Again, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, for securing today’s debate. Utilising the strategy set out in the levelling-up White Paper, and our extensive policy programme, this Government are committed to addressing the challenges faced by households across tenures of housing in England. I look forward to working with noble Lords to deliver a housing system that works for everyone.
Social Housing Standards
Baroness Scott of Bybrook Excerpts(2 years, 1 month ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Baroness Scott of Bybrook) (Con)
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement made in the other place earlier today by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities. The Statement is as follows:
“Mr Speaker, Members across the House and people across the country will have been horrified to hear about the circumstances surrounding the tragic death of Awaab Ishak. Awaab died in December 2020, just days after his second birthday, following prolonged exposure to mould in his parents’ one-bedroom flat in Rochdale. Awaab’s parents had repeatedly raised their concerns about the desperate state of their home with their landlord, the local housing association, Rochdale Boroughwide Housing. Awaab’s father first articulated his concerns in 2017, and others, including health professionals, also raised the alarm, but the landlord failed to take any kind of meaningful action. Rochdale Boroughwide Housing’s repeated failure to heed Awaab’s family’s pleas to remove the mould in their damp-ridden property was a terrible dereliction of duty.
Worse still, the apparent attempts by Rochdale Boroughwide Housing to attribute the existence of mould to the actions of Awaab’s parents was beyond insensitive and deeply unprofessional. As the Housing Ombudsman has made clear, damp and mould in rented housing is not a lifestyle issue, and we all have a duty to call out any behaviour rooted in ignorance or prejudice. The family’s lawyers have also made clear their view that the inaction of the landlord was rooted in racism and cultural prejudice.
The coroner who investigated Awaab’s death, Joanne Kearsley, has performed a vital public service in laying out all the facts behind this tragedy, and I wish to record my gratitude to her. As she said, it is scarcely believable that a child could die from mould in 21st-century Britain, or that his parents should have to fight tooth and nail, as they did in vain, to save him. I am sure the whole House will join me in paying tribute to Awaab’s family for their tireless fight for justice over the last two years. They deserved better and their son deserved better.
As so many have rightly concluded, Awaab’s case has thrown into sharp relief the need for renewed action to ensure that every landlord in the country makes certain that their tenants are housed in decent homes and are treated with dignity and fairness. That is why we are bringing forward further reforms. Last week, the House debated Second Reading of the Social Housing (Regulation) Bill. The measures in that Bill were inspired by the experience of tenants that led to the terrible tragedy of the Grenfell fire. The way in which tenants’ voices were ignored and their interests neglected in the Grenfell tragedy is a constant spur to action for me in this role.
However, before I say more on the substance of those reforms, I would first like to update the House on the immediate steps that my department is taking with regard to Awaab’s death. First, as the excellent public service journalism of the Manchester Evening News shows, we are aware that Awaab’s family was not alone in raising serious issues with the condition of homes managed by the local housing association. I have already been in touch with the chair and the chief executive of Rochdale Boroughwide Housing to demand answers and that they explain to me why a tragedy such as Awaab’s case was ever allowed to happen, and to hear what steps they are undertaking immediately to improve the living conditions of tenants, for which they are responsible.
I have also been in touch with the honourable Member for Rochdale, who has been a powerful champion for his constituents, and will be speaking shortly to the honourable Member for Heywood and Middleton to discuss finding suitable accommodation for tenants in Rochdale who are still enduring unacceptable conditions. I also hope to meet Awaab’s family, and those who live in the Freehold estate, so that they know that my department is there to support them. It is right that the Regulator of Social Housing is considering whether this landlord has systematically failed to meet the standards of service it is required to provide for its tenants. It has my full support in taking whatever action it deems necessary. Finally, I know the coroner has said she will write to me, and I assure the House that I will act immediately on her recommendations.
Turning to the broader urgent issues this tragedy raises, let me be perfectly clear, since some landlords apparently still need to hear this: every single person in this country, irrespective of where they are from, what they do or how much money they earn, deserves to live in a home that is decent, safe and secure. That is the relentless focus of my department. Since the publication of our social housing White Paper, we have sought to raise the bar dramatically on the quality of social housing, while empowering tenants so that their voices are truly heard. We started by strengthening the Housing Ombudsman service so that all residents have somewhere to turn when they are not getting the answers they need from their landlords. In addition, we have changed the law so that residents can now complain directly to the ombudsman, instead of having to wait eight weeks while their case is handled by a local MP or another ‘designated person’.
One of the principal roles of the Housing Ombudsman service is to ensure that robust complaint processes are put in place, so problems are resolved as soon as they are flagged. It can order landlords to pay compensation to residents whom they have mistreated. It can also refer cases to the regulator of social housing, who will in future be able to issue unlimited fines to landlords they find to be at fault. All decisions made by the ombudsman are published in the public domain, for the whole world to see which landlords are consistently letting their tenants down.
It is clear from Awaab’s case, which did not go before the ombudsman, that more needs to be done to ensure that this vital service is better promoted and reaches those who really need it. We have already run the nationwide Make Things Right campaign to ensure that more social housing residents know how they can make complaints and easily access the Housing Ombudsman service when things are too slow. We are now planning another targeted multi-year campaign so that everyone living in the social housing sector knows their rights, knows how to sound the alarm when their landlord is failing to make the grade, and knows how to seek redress without delay.
Where some social housing providers have performed poorly in the past, they have been given ample opportunity to change their ways and to start treating their residents with the respect they deserve. The time for empty promises of improvement is over, and my department is now naming and shaming those who have been found by the regulator to have breached consumer standards, or who have been found by the ombudsman to have committed severe maladministration.
While there is no doubt that this property fell below the standard that we expect social landlords to meet, Awaab’s death makes it painfully clear why we must do everything we can to better protect tenants. Our Social Housing (Regulation) Bill will bring in a rigorous new regime that holds landlords such as these to account for the decency of their homes and the services they provide. At the moment, the system is too reliant on people fighting their own corner, and we are determined to change that. The reforms we are making through the Social Housing (Regulation) Bill will help to relieve the burden on tenants with an emboldened and more powerful regulator. The Regulator of Social Housing will proactively inspect landlords and will have power to issue unlimited fines. It will be able to intervene in those cases where tenants’ lives are being put at risk because landlords are dragging their feet in actioning repairs. In the very worst cases, it will have the power to instruct that properties are brought under new management.
Landlords will be judged against tenant satisfaction measures, allowing tenants and all of us to see transparently which landlords are failing to deliver what residents expect and deserve. The right of everyone to feel safe in the place that they and their loved ones sleep at night is universal. That is why both our levelling-up and private rented sector White Papers set out how we will legislate to introduce a legally binding decent homes standard in the private rented sector for the first time. We recently consulted on that and are reviewing the responses so we can move forward. It is a key plank of our ambitious mission to halve the number of non-decent homes across all rented tenures by 2030, with the biggest improvements in the lowest-performing areas.
Through the legislation we are bringing forward, we hope no family ever has to suffer in the way that Awaab’s family has suffered. We will end the scandal of residents having to live in shoddy, substandard homes, such as some on the Freehold estate. We will restore the right of everyone in this country, whatever their race or cultural background, to live somewhere warm, decent, safe and secure—a place that they can be proud to call home. I commend this Statement to the House.”
Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)
I too thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. I am standing in for my noble friend Lady Pinnock, who cannot be here tonight; I have 15 years of experience in chairing a housing association, so I hope that I can contribute some constructive points.
This Statement follows a personal tragedy for the Ishak family in Rochdale. We should convey our sympathy and support for them, but the best thing we can do is reduce the possibility of this happening again. However, in my experience, social housing is not easy or straightforward, but complex. Some of the housing stock is far from up to standard, some tenants have very complex social needs and investment in this sector is switched on and off with each change of government, which also has further implications. The regulation regime and regulators also change frequently—three times during my 15 years—which means a loss of experience and knowledge of housing associations and a weaker regulator as a result.
Sadly, one of the problems is that too many tenants in social housing feel a lack of respect. They are demoralised. Anyone who has canvassed such housing knows that one of the biggest problems is getting them to vote, with the consequence that they do not get the all-round, cross-party political attention that they should.
I will make three points relevant to this case. First, maintenance is always a variable expenditure, depending on the state of finances of housing associations. It is easily switched off and the consequences follow much later. This is why, in looking at the funding of social housing, the Government need to look at not just new development and building, which is already inadequate, but at what is being invested in improving and maintaining the stock. I always had to fight in the housing associations that I chaired; investing in development is attractive but the stock is the most important thing, because the tenants are often paying for the new developments through their rents and therefore they need improvements too. That must always be respected by housing associations and the Government.
Complacency culture is a problem. There are some fantastic people working in the housing sector, to whom we should give respect, but there are a minority of housing associations and managers who are inadequate. It is too easy for the bad associations to run themselves for the convenience of staff and not tenants. In every housing association I have been involved in, whether you like it or not, you have to fight to make people think that it is simply not good enough to say, “This is good enough for them.” You need higher standards than that. Tenants need to be at the forefront and have respect.
Finally, we always need to learn from mistakes and seek to improve, but there is a danger with blame culture. It is very easily politically to say, as the Statement does,
“The time for empty promises of improvement is over, and my department is now naming and shaming those who have been found by the regulator to have breached consumer standards”.
I agree that we should expose that, but we also need to be aware of the unintended consequences. If that stops an openness and a willingness of people to admit mistakes, we will have a worse situation.
It is important to ask why the Regulator of Social Housing, after two years of this case, is only now considering whether the Rochdale association is up to scratch. Where has it been? Did the housing association in Rochdale alert the regulator at an early stage that it had a severe problem, and what has it done over the past two years to address these issues? That seems pretty important. I accept that naming and shaming has a role, but not if it leads an organisation to cover up and disguise mistakes. I give the example of the airline industry: we would never be where we are in the airline industry if we spent all our time naming and shaming rather than trying to deal with mistakes and errors and improve the safety record.
So I would like to end with three questions to the Minister. First, is there enough social housing stock in the system to allow housing associations to move people where improvements are needed on the existing stock? I would identify that as almost certainly a major problem that needs addressing. Secondly, are the Government happy with the speed of the Social Housing Regulator in intervening in this case? Did it wait until the end of this case before it intervened? Surely it should have been involved at a much earlier stage, and somebody, if they were running a housing association, should have alerted the housing regulator to the problem. If the Manchester Evening News was involved, I cannot believe that it was not in contact with the regulator—so what has it been doing over the last few months such that we are now waiting for it to make its judgement?
Thirdly, will there be much more attention paid by the Government to improving our housing stock in all sectors, rented and owner occupation, to phase out outdated housing? Surely, we need to do this as part of the insulation programme, but it is fundamental to the problem that we are talking about today that not enough attention has been placed on improving existing housing stock.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
My Lords, I can hear the passion from both noble Lords opposite and I think it is completely appropriate. I wish to add my voice to those who have shone a light on the failings of the housing association, although I understand that the blame culture does not always work; you always have to have with it the support to do better. I have a huge amount of respect for the regulator, and when the regulator has the new duties when the Bill goes through, I am sure that they will do the shaming, if necessary, but they will also do the supporting where necessary as well.
We cannot allow families such as Awaab’s to live in housing that is not fit for human habitation, where there are clear signs of neglect, damp, and mould, and where the family fears for the children’s health. Living in a decent home is a right, and the Secretary of State has been quite clear that the Government will not rest until every single household feels safe in their home. Addressing a number of things that have been brought up, the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, quite rightly talked about the issues of the Housing Ombudsman. I do think that this is the way forward for individuals, the way forward for the regulator to get to know issues that are becoming systemic in any area, and the way forward for individual issues to be dealt with in a very timely manner. But we do need—the Secretary of State mentioned this in his Statement—to get out to the tenants to tell them how to do this, and that needs to be done sensitively, because having English as a second language can be a barrier to that, as can other things. We need to make sure that we are doing everything we can, and the Secretary of State said that we are going to go into another country-wide communications project on this—the ombudsman is part of the key to making sure that this does not happen again.
Both the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, and the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, mentioned building. We know that there is, I believe, £11.5 billion in the affordable housing building fund, and some of that is for social housing. But I say to the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, that there is never enough housing stock to do what we really want to do. This has not just been the case recently; it has always been a challenge, and it is a challenge that you have heard the Secretary of State say that he is up to delivering. We just have to keep going with building the necessary housing stock in this sector that is required.
Energy—once again from the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock—is always something she challenges the Government on, and quite rightly. As I have mentioned before, there is a government programme of support and money available to retrofit all housing stock, and we also have to remember that the social housing sector is the most energy efficient sector in the country—but we cannot be complacent, and we need to move on this as well.
On private rented sector properties, I have not got the timeline yet, but the review has been done and we are working on getting that through, because it is important. This was not a private rented sector house or flat, but we do know that these issues are just as difficult and complex in the private sector as they are in the social sector. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, that I think there is an issue about culture in the housing sector as a whole, and I am hoping that the Social Housing (Regulation) Bill will start to change that culture. That was something that we brought out very early on when we announced the Bill—the fact that we wanted a cultural change within the sector. That is extremely important. I have been involved in the sector a little bit—not as much as some noble Lords, but I have—and there is a cultural issue that does need changing. The regulator knows that, and will spend time working with the sector to change that culture.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, on maintenance and stock improvement, and I will take that back to make sure that we are encouraging all social landlords to make sure that the maintenance is agreed. I know from the local authorities delivering social housing that this is something that is always important to them; certainly, when I was involved, we had planned maintenance—it was good planned maintenance, and the money was there to do that. But there is always a bit of a pull and push on this—whether it goes into maintenance or new properties—and that is an issue too.
I will look at Hansard and, if I have not answered all noble Lords’ questions, I will, as always, write. But what is important to me is that we continue to have a discussion, all of us, in this House, because this House has many of the answers and challenges us all. To any Peer—there are not many of us here—who wants to contact me following the debate to discuss this matter further, I say that my door is open, because it is an important matter and I want to discuss it. It is important that all of us. There is expertise and experience in this House, and I can see that there are noble Lords who know quite a lot about this sector with us today. We need to use that to ensure that nobody has to deal with what Awaab’s family faced ever again.
Before I sit down, I just want to say that our thoughts and prayers are with Awaab’s family through what must have been the most horrendous time—something that obviously they will never forget, and let us hope that we never forget it either.
Lord Best (CB)
My Lords, this is such a horrible tragedy. I join the Minister in sending sympathies to Awaab’s parents. To lose a two year-old child is just about as bad as it gets, and I feel very strongly about that. I know that the housing association itself is deeply troubled and upset by what has happened on its watch. The coroner said that this should be a “defining moment” for the housing sector. I spoke today to the chief executive of the housing association, Rochdale Boroughwide Housing, and there are some important lessons that the housing associations and we in Parliament and government can learn from this tragedy.
First, the Statement from the Secretary of State explains that the Social Housing (Regulation) Bill, which we greatly welcome in this House—we have completed its stages here—will enhance regulation of social landlords and the role of the Housing Ombudsman. This new legislation is important, since I suspect that in this case there was no knowledge at all of the Housing Ombudsman. There was an opportunity to make a complaint and be listened to a lot earlier, but I think that opportunity was simply not known about in Rochdale at the time. We now have legislation that will strengthen the ombudsman, but we need to promote that ombudsman service really quite energetically, and I believe that this process has started.
In my ignorance, I did not understand that mould can actually kill a small child—it is as bad as that. Mould is a horrible thing to have in your house, but the fact that it can lead to death really brings home just how awful this plague is in so many houses where ventilation and heating in combination are not achieving a balance, and where condensation is causing this horrible mould. The urgency of doing something about this has now been magnified by this event and it means that all housing associations have to give priority to this. When they hear that a place has mould on the walls, they must take that very seriously. When a visit is happening for any other reason, staff need to be told, “Look out for mould as well; report that back to base. That is a serious issue”. Now that housing associations are very large enterprises, communications within them need to be good enough so that people share all the information and understanding they bring back from a visit or telephone call. That sharing of information needs to identify where mould is a problem so that something can be done about it.
My next point is that fuel poverty is also behind this. People are not putting the heating on and not making the place warm enough. They cannot be blamed for that; the cost of fuel is a major part of the house- hold budget. This will get worse with the current energy crisis and we will have more of these cases, not fewer. I am afraid that a lot of properties owned by housing associations—including pre-1919 street properties and 1960s and 1970s concrete buildings—need serious attention. They need insulating in a modern way that will cut those energy bills and mean that the lack of heating does not create the condensation that leads to the mould that leads to tragedies like this. We are going to have to invest in these older properties. We are ready for decent homes round 2; I hope the Government are up for this. These things are not just a matter of regulation; they are, as the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, said, also about investment. We all agree on that. The social housing decarbonisation fund coming through will be really helpful. The levelling-up funding should target the insulation of older properties. We can see where the priority really lies in terms of the resources we are going to put into properties: cutting down on fuel bills.
There are some important lessons here. There are lessons for government as well as for the housing associations. Let us hope that some real value can come from this miserable tragedy of poor little Awaab, and that this is indeed a defining moment for the housing sector.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
It is indeed a defining moment. The Secretary of State has made it very clear that he thinks that this is a defining moment and that he is not going to let this go.
I was also surprised by how dangerous mould can be. I have concerns about the sharing of information in these cases, because a health visitor and a visiting midwife both noticed this mould. They put forward a report to the council, which did not seem to go as far as it should have. Sadly, communication is often an issue in these cases and we need to make sure that those problems are dealt with as well as the issues of the housing.
Obviously, this case was two years ago, but I am concerned about fuel—of course I am. However, I am mostly concerned about whether some of these tenants know what they can get from the Government to help them. I am not sure that they do. Through wearing my other hat as a Faith Minister, I am working very closely with the faith communities to make sure that when they talk to their communities and have their warm hubs and so on, they ensure that everybody knows exactly what the Government are offering to help them, because that sometimes is not the case. This case was not so much about heating but about ventilation, but that is another issue we need to look at across the sector, because mould often grows when ventilation is not correct.
Lastly, the noble Lord is absolutely right that not enough people know about the ombudsman. We had the Make Things Right campaign, which reached millions of social housing residents. This family obviously did not know about that, but I would then ask: where was the housing association to say that the family could go to the ombudsman when they first complained? There is more that we need to do, both the Government, in telling social housing residents about what they can get, and others who have contact with these families, by suggesting to them that the ombudsman is there to help them.
Lord Pickles (Con)
My Lords, mould was causing death to children when Charles Dickens explored the inequities in the rookeries, so it is particularly shocking that this should occur in our own century. My noble friend talked about the rights of tenants and their inability to understand the role of the ombudsman, but this tenant family did the right thing: they got legal advice and their lawyer approached the council. For some reason, the council thought that was a reason to do nothing and not to attend to the mould. Will my noble friend make it clear that this is not a reasonable excuse not to act to provide safe and secure housing? This is particularly important because she talked about the culture. There is a disturbingly high level of churn among officials doing this kind of work in housing associations, looking at maintenance and the like. You can get it right for a while and then someone else comes along. Can my noble friend be unambiguous and say that this is clearly a misunderstanding of how the law operates and not a reasonable excuse?
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
I agree with my noble friend. When I read about this, I was also very surprised by the timeline: once Awaab’s father had instructed solicitors, the housing association then said it could do nothing further. I understand that many housing providers have a policy to routinely pause addressing complaints through their process when legal proceedings are commenced, and that this stays in place until agreements are reached between solicitors. I do not think that is right. We need to look at this. Repairs should not be stopped. When rehousing is necessary, I do not think that should be stopped. I understand that this is in the hands of the housing providers; if they want to keep going with maintenance, rehousing or whatever is required, they can. They have decided to have this policy, but personally I do not think it is acceptable.
Baroness Sanderson of Welton (Con)
My Lords, the Housing Ombudsman said earlier today that at the heart of little Awaab’s death lies the behaviour of the landlord, Rochdale Boroughwide Housing. As he said, for this landlord, and perhaps too many others in the social housing sector, there are issues with culture, behaviours and values. We know this. We have seen it time and again. So, while I commend the Government for all the actions they have taken since Grenfell, will they look again at including professionalisation in the Social Housing (Regulation) Bill? My noble friend the Minister has emphasised the importance of culture change, but without professionalisation it will be so much harder to change the culture, behaviours and values of those working on social housing.
My right honourable friend in the other place said that it is the right of everyone to feel safe in the place where they and their loved ones sleep at night. We know that many living in social housing would feel happier, safer and more valued knowing that the people responsible for their homes were qualified, just as those in other sectors with responsibilities to others are qualified. If this is to be a defining moment, let us not waste this opportunity. We have a real opportunity to do something about this now.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
I thank my noble friend. I wondered whether I would get that question from her or the Front Bench opposite. Noble Lords know that we recognise in the social housing White Paper the need to improve professional standards in social housing, so that all residents receive the high-quality services they deserve and, as importantly, in my opinion, are treated with dignity and respect by social housing staff.
We have carried out a review on professional training and development and, as a result, have amended the Social Housing (Regulation) Bill to allow the Secretary of State to direct the regulator to set standards on the competence and conduct of all staff involved in the management of social housing. The new competence and conduct standard will ensure providers take appropriate steps to ensure all staff have the right knowledge, skills and experience, and demonstrate the behaviours required for the delivery of high-quality and professional services for tenants. As my noble friend knows, the Bill is going through the other place at the moment. I am sure there will be more discussions on this, so we wait to see.
Baroness Eaton (Con)
I declare my interests in the private rented sector, as in the register. We have heard from a number of colleagues about the importance of the culture in social housing provision being improved. Would my noble friend agree that social housing landlords must do better to train staff to see the welfare of tenants as their responsibility, rather than seeing them as a problem to be managed?
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
I absolutely agree with my noble friend. That is the culture change we need to embed in the sector and the Social Housing (Regulation) Bill is the catalyst for this. I know that professional qualifications are an issue, but the Government have made it very clear that they want the staff working in housing associations to have the right knowledge and skills, and particularly empathy with tenants. That applies in every sector. Training is necessary and will come. The regulator will certainly be looking at these issues as it moves forward to taking on responsibility for not just the financial issues within the sector but the consumer issues.
Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)
The noble Baroness said that she would look through Hansard and write to us. Could she look at when we are likely to see the passage of the renters reform Bill? We have talked about the importance of private rented housing compared with social housing and the Bill is critical to making progress, so I would be grateful for a response on that.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
I will. I am sorry; I forgot that. I will probably give an answer in the debate tomorrow.
Police and Crime Commissioner Elections (Amendment) Order 2022
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Baroness Scott of Bybrook
That the draft Order laid before the House on 17 October be approved.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Baroness Scott of Bybrook) (Con)
My Lords, these SIs are a key part of the implementation of the Elections Act 2022, which your Lordships debated at some length earlier this year.
The Assistance with Voting for Persons with Disabilities (Amendments) Regulations 2022 are made in consequence of, or to make similar provision to, Section 9 of the Elections Act 2022. The intention of both Section 9 of the Act and these consequential regulations is to improve the support available to disabled voters at polling stations, and they do this in two ways. First, they replace the existing requirement to provide a single, prescribed device to assist blind and partially sighted voters with a broader, better requirement that returning officers provide equipment to assist a wider range of disabled voters to cast their vote independently. They also revoke reference to that device for UK parliamentary elections where its description is included in secondary legislation. Secondly, they replace the unnecessarily restrictive requirement that anyone assisting a disabled voter be either a close family member of that voter or an elector themselves with a requirement that the person assisting be 18 years or over. This will allow people to more easily get support to cast their vote where the person best placed to support them did not meet either of the two previous criteria.
These changes are made for UK parliamentary elections by the Elections Act 2022, and this instrument makes equivalent changes across a range of other polls, including most mayoral elections; local authority governance referendums and neighbourhood planning referendums in England; police and crime commissioner elections in England and Wales; and MP recall petitions across the UK. The changes are being replicated at other polls, including English local elections, Greater London Authority elections and London mayoral elections, through separate secondary legislation following the negative procedure that will be laid before the House in due course. These instruments are essential in ensuring that the improvements to support for disabled voters in the polling station introduced by the Elections Act are applied consistently across all polls reserved to the UK Government.
The Police and Crime Commissioner Elections (Amendment) Order 2022 has two purposes. First, it amends the spending rules for police and crime commissioner elections for England and Wales to replicate amendments made by the Elections Act 2022. These changes will bring much-needed clarity to candidates and their agents that they need to report benefits in kind—that is, property, goods, services or facilities which are provided for the use or benefit of the candidate at a discount or for free—which they have actually used, or which they or their election agents have directed, authorised or encouraged someone else to use on their behalf. In combination with expanded statutory guidance from the Electoral Commission, which is provided for by the order, this will support compliance with the rules and ensure those wishing to participate in public life can feel confident doing so, clear in their legal obligations.
Secondly, it inserts two additional welfare benefits into the list of qualifying benefits for proxy voting applications for police and crime commissioner elections. This will ensure that disabled people in receipt of new welfare benefits in Scotland who have recently moved from Scotland would be able to make a proxy vote application at a PCC election, without the need for it to be attested, while a decision is pending on the equivalent welfare benefit in the jurisdiction where they now reside. To give an example, if a disabled person who has been living in Scotland and is in receipt of an enhanced rate of new adult disability benefit has recently moved to a local authority in England and wishes to apply for an emergency proxy vote at a PCC election, the proxy vote application will not need to be attested by another authorised person, because the Scottish welfare benefit will be payable for 13 weeks from the time of their move. This means that the applicant for a proxy vote for a PCC election would be on the same footing as a person in receipt of the equivalent benefit in England for that period until they apply for the equivalent benefit in England and Wales.
It is vitally important that these rules also be updated in relation to police and crime commissioner elections to ensure consistency and fairness across the law, that candidates and election agents can discharge their responsibilities with confidence, and that disabled electors get the support they need at UK elections. I beg to move.
Lord Jones (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her authoritative introduction. In terms of the context of our consideration, can the Minister give a breakdown of the affiliations—political or none—of the PCCs in England and Wales? Again, for context, looking at paragraph 7.3 of the Explanatory Memorandum, does the Minister have data concerning average PCC election expenses based on the last and previous rounds of elections? It would be interesting to be told the lowest and highest moneys expended in those two PCC elections. I do not ask the Minister from whence these moneys came—that really would be interesting.
For a better body politic, what is the Minister doing to try to ensure more interest in PCC elections? How might the citizen elector be persuaded to rate these elections to be of greater importance? What is being done to ensure greater participation? Is it not time to set up a major study of the concept of police and crime commissioners? What has been their success? How can their proceedings be improved? What of the quality of the candidates, and what of their backgrounds? Does the Home Office consult with the Welsh Assembly, the Senedd? Is there a sharing of information and opinion? Do Ministers from those two Parliaments meet? Is it an England and Wales order? It is. Were there consultations between England and Wales ahead of drafting? What kind of consultation was there? Was it ministerial, by officials, or simply by the net?
Lastly, perhaps I might persuade the Minister to consider a visit to north Wales. Our North Wales Police authority is very good. The chief constable and her board work very well alongside the federation and the PCC. I think that that visit would be helpful in providing ministerial insight into Wales and her workings. The police authority in north Wales is an excellent, exemplary organisation. Finally, I commend Mr Andrew Dunbobbin, the PCC. He is a serious and committed citizen, hoping to help things along.
Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)
My Lords, I start by thanking the Minister for her thorough introduction of these two instruments.
I will look first at the police and crime commissioner elections order. I know that it is out of scope of the SI, but my noble friend Lord Jones made an important point when he talked about how we really need to look at increasing participation in these elections. They have terribly low turnouts and that is not good for democracy.
As we have heard, the order relates to benefits in kind, referred to as “notional expenditure”, that are given to PCCs. In July 2018, the Supreme Court ruled that there is no requirement that these benefits must be authorised by the candidate or the election agent. That is why concerns arose, which we discussed at some length during the passage of what became the Elections Act: people were concerned that they could be liable for expenses without even being aware that they had been incurred.
We support that this is clarifying what happens now in law around notional expenditure and that this is being replicated for PCCs’ elections. We believe it was right to tidy up the law in relation to notional expenditure in the Elections Act and we supported that during the passage of the Act. But I remind the Minister that I tabled an amendment to the Bill which stated:
“The Secretary of State must publish new guidance to candidates on notional expenditure within the period of 12 months”.
Can the Minister reassure the House that there will be guidance to candidates and their agents on this matter?
I turn to the second instrument, on assistance with voting for persons with disabilities. Again, this implements changes made by the Elections Act 2022, which we discussed earlier this year. One of the things that we looked at in some detail was removing the specific requirement for polling stations to offer tactile voting devices and replacing it with a fairly vague duty for workers at polling stations to support voters with often a wide range of disabilities. It is also worth noting that the RNIB did not think that tactile voting devices were enough and that more needed to be done. So there is much in this to commend.
One thing that came across very strongly in our debates on the Elections Bill was that blind and partially sighted people experience a unique set of challenges when voting. Obviously, voting is fundamentally a visual exercise. Some noble Lords expressed concern about the way this might be implemented and resourced. The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, clearly explained those concerns just now.
I say to the Minister that along with others, we will be keeping an interest in this to make sure that returning officers continue to make voting accessible for everybody, regardless of their disability and at every polling station. It might therefore be helpful if the Government could indicate that they too will be monitoring the issue to ensure that the changes being made proceed as intended. As the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, said, a review in five years is a long way off when you have a fundamental change to how people with disabilities will be able to vote. At the end of the day, all we want here—I am sure the Government are in the same place—is for blind and partially sighted voters in particular to be able to exercise their democratic right confidently and independently.
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
I thank noble Lords on all sides of the House for their contributions. I will try to answer all the questions, but I may not give your Lordships a complete answer, so I will read Hansard tomorrow and make sure that, if any have not been answered, I will do so.
The noble Lord, Lord Jones, went slightly off the SIs, but I understand why. It has been almost 10 years since the PCCs were introduced in 2012, and it is always right that the Government take a step back and review the model and their role on a continual basis. The Government were clear in their 2019 manifesto that they would strengthen the accountability of elected PCCs and expand their role, and a two-part internal review into the role of PCCs was established by the then Home Secretary. This has provided an opportunity to look more closely at how the Government can strengthen that accountability but also the resilience, the legitimacy and the scrutiny of democratically elected PCCs, because we want to ensure that the record of those PCCs is more visible to the voting public. This comes to the noble Lord’s questions about why the people of this country are not really interested in this, and why the election numbers are down. If we can make PCCs more visible, I hope we can increase the public vote and drive up standards.
One of the other things that needs to be done is clarification for the public of the relationship between a chief constable and a PCC, because they need to know that in order to know who to go to, and then they have the right checks and balances. So the Home Office is doing work on this. I think that is probably enough on that.
The noble Lord asked a number of quite detailed questions about the breakdown of spending; I will write to him with the answers.
With regard to visiting Wales, that is a very kind invitation but I will leave it to my noble friend Lady Bloomfield, who I believe is going to Wales tomorrow. She goes regularly, and I am sure that she would love to meet some PCCs in Wales.
I move on to the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton. As she knows, it can be difficult to access polling stations, particularly in rural areas, but this of course is the responsibility of electoral officers. I do think they are getting better at it, and this Act and the changes that are being made, and the fact that the Electoral Commission now has to take more notice of what is being said and give more guidance to electoral officers about this, mean that things will change even more for the better.
In addition, particularly for those people who have sight difficulties, the work that the noble Lords, Lord Blunkett and Lord Holmes, have done through the Act to give different polling stations the flexibility to find the best way to enable blind and visually impaired people to vote in a proper way has been fantastic. They are not in their places, but I thank them for the work that they have done on that.
On training, I am sure that the commission will be helping local electoral officers with that. There is indeed a five-year review, which the Electoral Commission is required to undertake and to report the steps taken by returning officers. However, because this is not the way the commission works, I do not expect that it will wait for five years to do it. I am sure that it will keep a rolling view on it, because that is the way that it works, and it is important that that happens.
Assistance with Voting for Persons with Disabilities (Amendments) Regulations 2022
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Baroness Scott of Bybrook
That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 24 October be approved.
Relevant document: 16th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee
Devolved Administrations: Intergovernmental Relations
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Baroness Bryan of Partick
To ask His Majesty’s Government what meetings have been held in 2022 with the devolved administrations as part of the intergovernmental relations arrangements.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Baroness Scott of Bybrook) (Con)
My Lords, the Prime Minister spoke with the First Ministers of Scotland and Wales on his first day in office, underlining the Government’s commitment to working closely with the devolved Governments on the shared challenges facing people across the UK. From January to September this year, there have been over 200 ministerial meetings between the United Kingdom Government and the devolved Governments on a wide range of issues.
Baroness Bryan of Partick (Lab)
I thank the Minister for that reply. Unfortunately, there is a sense of quantity overriding quality in some of these meetings. I have searched high and low to find as many minutes and communiqués as I could, but I get the impression that many of these meetings are simply going through the motions. Academics have put this down to the Government having a unitary mindset, even after 20 years of devolution, and not actually accepting that there has been a fundamental change in the constitution. Does the Minister understand why people in Scotland and Wales feel that their Parliaments and political representatives are not given the level of respect that they should be afforded?
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
I do not agree with that. The UK Government and the devolved Governments are working under jointly agreed operating arrangements; therefore, the quality and frequency of engagements are a joint endeavour between Governments. The UK Government deeply value transparency, accountability and effective scrutiny by the UK Parliament and the broader public of the Government’s participation in intergovernmental structures. We will continue to update the House on our published transparency reports. The last one came out on 21 July, and there is one due out shortly, in the third quarter of 2022.
Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)
My Lords, given the reliance on science during the pandemic, which does not recognise national boundaries, and the frequency of travel between nations, what lessons have been learned from the divergence of pandemic policies between each area? Will the Government take account of the agreed actions of the four vets from each area in dealing with the avian flu in any evidence they give to the Hallett inquiry?
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
I thank the noble and learned Lord for that question. I think it goes slightly away from today’s Question, but I can tell him that, last year and the year before, the number of ministerial meetings between the UK Government and the devolved Governments increased considerably. That is important, because it reflects the work they all did on Covid-19 issues. I will certainly take his questions on avian flu and the learnings from Covid to the Department of Health and Social Care.
Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)
Would the Minister agree that relations between the Government and the devolved Administrations fall far short of what was hoped for when devolution was established? Will the Government therefore set up a genuine consultation to ensure that what is devolved stays devolved, what is reserved is reserved and what is shared is shared with an atmosphere of mutual respect?
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
I do not agree with the noble Lord. I think it is. We have clear arrangements between the UK Government and devolved Governments about how they work together, the frequency of those engagements and what they talk about. This is not just at Prime Minister level but right the way through, through the Ministers and down to the officials. The work done between the four areas of the United Kingdom is good and works well.
Baroness Fraser of Craigmaddie (Con)
My Lords, the Minister will be aware that the Scottish Government plan to publish their budget for 2023-24 on 15 December. Is she aware of any discussions or considerations the UK Government have had with the devolved Administrations on the Chancellor postponing the Autumn Statement until 17 November and the corresponding ability of the devolved Administrations to plan for their budgets, less than a month later?
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
The Treasury considers a range of factors when setting fiscal events, including the impact on the devolved Administrations. The Scottish Government’s agreed fiscal framework sets out that funding will normally be finalised in the autumn prior to each financial year. Delivering the Autumn Statement on 17 November is therefore in line with these normal arrangements. The fiscal framework also recognises that normal arrangements sometimes need to be delayed, so sets out alternative arrangements in such a scenario. However, I do not think that delivering this on 17 November is such a case; for example, I think what it is thinking of are abnormal events such as when we had a general election close to Christmas.
Lord Wigley (PC)
Will the Minister accept that the last three or four years have been a period when relationships between Westminster and Cardiff have been far from satisfactory? Given that we have a new Government, will she give an undertaking that there will be a positive initiative to try to overcome the difficulties that have existed, particularly by giving information to the Government in Cardiff in good time, so that they can react after considering the matter and not be rushed into taking decisions that cause problems later?
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
The Prime Minister set the tone for the Government’s collaborative approach to working with the devolved Governments right from his very first day in office. I can tell the House that the Prime Minister expects to meet the First Ministers again later this week. That is the tone that he has set and that we will continue.
Baroness Fookes (Con)
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the Constitution Committee issued a very important report on the future of the United Kingdom? We would hope that intergovernmental relations will be taken very seriously, but there is a particular problem, in that the consent of the devolved Governments does not have to be sought for delegated legislation on matters that I am very aware would otherwise not be reserved. May we hope that this problem will be looked at very seriously, because it causes intense irritation among the devolved Administrations?
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
I thank my noble friend for that comment. I will take it back to the department, discuss it and then come back to her.
Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)
My Lords, the challenges we face—the cost of living crisis, the climate crisis and standing up to Putin—are common across our four nations and we need to face them together. Can the Minister detail what recent engagements the Government have had in the past few months with the devolved Administrations on the climate crisis as part of preparations for COP 27?
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
I thank the noble Lord. I cannot give the dates for what happened but it is possible, at any time, to go on to the government website and see what those meetings were about. However, I can tell the noble Lord that if those are the issues which the devolved Governments want to speak to the Prime Minister about, I am sure he will be listening at this coming meeting.
The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)
My Lords, I do not think the Cross Bench has had a go yet. The first inter- governmental relations quarterly report came from the Cabinet Office. The latest one comes from the Department for Levelling Up. Can the Minister explain why that has moved and explain how the machinery of government works so that if a ministry is found not to be pulling its weight in this important aspect, it is encouraged to do so?
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
The area of inter- governmental relations was with the Department for Levelling Up prior to the last reshuffle. It then went to the Cabinet Office and it is now back with the Department for Levelling Up. That is the place—the communities area—where it should be.
Lord Woodley (Lab)
My Lords, I hope the Minister appreciates that the people of Liverpool can feel as alienated from the UK Government as those in Wales and Scotland. Does the Minister accept that Liverpool and other regions should be represented in these discussions, alongside the devolved Administrations?
Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)
I do not agree with that. There is a completely separate area of discussion with the devolved Administrations and another, which I think is important, with the rest of local government and the regions of the whole of the United Kingdom. Those two separate things go alongside each other and work well.