New Hospital Programme Review

Baroness Merron Excerpts

Tuesday 28th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, I extend my gratitude to the Minister for the Statement on the pressing issue surrounding the new hospital programme review. This initiative, inherited from the previous Conservative Government, who overpromised and underfunded, was a significant letdown for countless communities and patients across England. While the ambition to modernise hospital infrastructure is commendable, the current trajectory raises serious concerns that demand urgent attention.

Such concern was raised in a recent email from the chief executive of Leeds Teaching Hospitals NHS Trust, which showed the impact on both patients and staff of such a delay for capital investment in the hospitals that he leads. Recent data paints a worrying picture: hospitals facing delays under the new hospital programme reported over 500 infrastructure-related incidents in the past year alone. These failures led to the loss of 32 days of clinical time, directly impacting patient care.

This is not just about numbers, it is about real people unable to recover, return to work or resume their daily lives because of these delays. Alarmingly, nearly 100 flooding events occurred in these hospitals that have now been delayed for repair and rebuilding, representing a quarter of all such incidents across NHS England, despite these hospitals accounting for less than 1% of the total NHS estate. Helen Morgan MP, the Liberal Democrat spokesperson in the other place, aptly described these hospitals as “hanging by a thread”. She rightly criticised postponement of essential projects as a “false economy” that jeopardises patient safety. Delays not only inflate cost, forcing hospitals to allocate more of their stretched budgets to essential maintenance, but allow estates to deteriorate further, leading to closed clinics and clinical facilities, extending waiting times and possibly leading to poorer health outcomes for patients.

Therefore, I ask the Minister: have the Government conducted an impact assessment of these delays? If so, will she release a comprehensive evaluation detailing the risk to patients’ well-being, the additional maintenance cost anticipated between now and 2039 for these hospitals, and the financial implications of delaying investment? Specifically, have the Government considered whether to adopt an invest-to-save model, offsetting the cost of borrowing against the escalating maintenance burden and the economic inactivity for some patients caused by estate failures? This could provide a more sustainable way of building these hospitals.

The Autumn Budget of 2024 announced a £3.1 billion increase in the health and social care capital budget over the next two years. While welcome, this figure falls far short of the £6.4 billion per year experts say is necessary to address the NHS’s growing challenge. Over recent years, the maintenance backlog has more than doubled in real terms, rising from £6.4 billion in 2015-16 to a staggering £13.8 billion in 2023-24. This includes urgent issues such as crumbling roofs, outdated electrical systems and failing heating and ventilation—conditions that no hospital staff or members of the public should endure.

The King’s Fund has highlighted a troubling practice. Despite planned increases in capital investment, financial pressures have driven the reallocation of capital budgets to cover day-to-day spending. This undermines the long- term investment urgently needed to maintain and upgrade our healthcare facilities. In light of these alarming facts, I pose the following questions to the Minister. What specific measures have been implemented to ensure that delays to hospital building programmes do not compromise patient safety? How do the Government plan to bridge the gap between the £3.1 billion and the £6.4 billion per year experts say is required to address the NHS hospital maintenance backlog? Will the Government publish a detailed impact assessment of the delayed projects, outlining the risk to patient care and safety? What strategies have been put in place to ring-fence capital budgets, ensuring they are not diverted to cover day-to-day expenses? How do the Government intend to address critical maintenance issues, such as failing roofs and outdated electrical systems in hospitals that will not see rebuilding until the mid to late 2030s?

In conclusion, while the Government’s commitment to improving hospital infrastructure is evident, the current capital allocations are insufficient to address the pressing needs of these facilities. Without sustained investment, the Government risk compromising both patient safety and quality of care. I urge the Government to reassess their funding priorities and consider an invest-to-save model to secure safe and effective hospital environments for patients and professional staff alike. I call on the Minister to address these concerns with the seriousness that they deserve.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the reflections and questions from the Opposition Front Benches, although I noticed a difference in the level of understanding of where we are between the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, and the noble Lord, Lord Kamall—I note his disappointment with what he refers to delay and reassessment, and I will return to that.

Perhaps I might make a few points that might be helpful to frame some of the responses, and then go on to some of the specific questions that were asked. I note the disappointment of the noble Lord, Lord Kamall. I cannot, however, accept his assessment, because of where we started. It is impossible to ignore that. As we know, the independent investigation by the noble Lord, Lord Darzi, found the NHS to be starved of capital—indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, spoke to that. There was some £37 billion of underinvestment in the 2010s, and the fact is—this is borne out by the National Audit Office, which confirmed it—that we were not going to be seeing 40 new hospitals by the date set, so, in my view, it has been independently verified. The new hospital programme was announced by the last Government in October 2020 to deliver 40 new hospitals by 2030. The fact is the schedule for delivery was repeatedly delayed and, on top of that, unfunded beyond March 2025.

That is why, when we came into government, the Secretary of State within weeks commissioned an urgent review into the new hospitals programme. That, I am glad to say, was carried out at pace over the summer of 2024. What was that all about? It aimed to put the programme on a firm footing with sustainable funding. I do not accept that that was simply a delay. I can understand disappointment—I would like it to be different—but we have been dealt the hand we have. The outcome of the review, which was announced on 20 January in the Statement that we are discussing tonight, provided a credible plan and timeline to deliver schemes, and that is set out in the published New Hospital Programme: Plan for Implementation. It is backed with investment, which is expected to increase to £15 billion over each consecutive five-year wave. That is averaging around £3 billion a year from 2030. Funding will, of course, as with all government funding, be confirmed at future spending reviews.

The current wave of new building is under way, and there are a further three waves. The first wave consists of 16 schemes beginning construction between 2025 and 2030; wave 2 has nine schemes beginning construction between 2030 and 2035; and wave 3 has nine schemes beginning construction between 2035 and 2039. That is like chalk and cheese compared with where we were before. We had a promise of new hospitals when, in fact, many of them were not new hospitals, whereas this sets out quite clearly what will be built, when it will be built and the funding. To me, this is actually honesty; it may not be where we want to be, but it is saying that this is the honest situation, and this is what we will do.

The new hospital programme provides a mix of new builds and/or refurbishments, new-build extensions and refurbs. That is under that programme, and I can also confirm to the noble Lords that we will be appointing a programme delivery partner in the coming weeks to support this delivery.

I was asked about other capital projects, and I shall just mention a few. Capital spending is increasing this year, rising to £13.6 billion next year. That includes £1.5 billion for new surgical hubs, diagnostic scanners, beds across the estate and new radiotherapy machines to improve cancer treatment. That will also help greatly towards tackling waiting lists.

Reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete, or RAAC, is an area of great concern. Over £1 billion has been allocated to tackle that and address the backlog of critical maintenance, repairs and upgrades across the NHS estate, to which the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, referred. Importantly—because we often discuss this—over £2 billion will be invested in NHS technology and digital infrastructure, because it is not just physical build but about making sure that we are building for the future.

In general terms, I believe that the new hospital programme is finally, as it was not before, on a sustainable footing. The plan is realistic, credible and transparent, so we will be held to account. It is part of our determination to rebuild the NHS and rebuild trust—because I feel, sadly, that trust went.

The noble Lord, Lord Kamall, rightly raised the point that it is not all about large-scale hospitals, and I certainly agree with that—not least because it is one of our pillars, as the noble Lord said, to shift the focus of the NHS out of hospitals and into the communities. We understand that, if patients cannot get a GP appointment, for example, they are going to end up in A&E, which is worse for them and expensive for the taxpayer. At the Autumn Budget, we established a dedicated—and I stress “dedicated” in answer to the question about funding from the noble Lord, Lord Scriven—capital fund of £102 million for 2025-26 to deliver around 200 upgrades to GP surgeries across England that will support the improved use of existing buildings and space, boost productivity and enable the delivery of more appointments. I would absolutely agree that that is very important.

I was asked about other funding, and I have mentioned the health capital spending that is needed. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Scriven—and I know he is aware of this—that we inherited a monumental backlog of maintenance. I refer also to a couple of other points that the noble Lord raised. I do not want to put words into his mouth, but one of them was about whether we can review. I know that this is an issue, and there are certain schemes that people wish to advocate for and are particularly concerned about. The fact is that the decisions have been made, and they were made while taking into account all the necessary criteria in a fair and open way. The Statement outlines the lists, and they will not be changing. For those who are not on the waves, we are working with them to look at what is needed, so people are not being ignored. I also emphasise that my colleagues in the House of Commons, the Secretary of State and, particularly, the Minister, Karin Smyth, have engaged widely and very quickly with every constituency MP, in the waves that are outlined in the Statement and those that are not mentioned, because we understand people’s concern.

The noble Lord, Lord Scriven, also asked about an assessment of the impact of the new delivery schedule. It is now available on GOV.UK with the plan for implementation— and I hope that is helpful. I definitely echo the noble Lord’s concerns about continuous switches between capital and revenue, and I can assure him and your Lordships’ House that the Government’s now updated fiscal rules will stop future switches from capital to revenue. I also reassure both noble Lords that the Government are committed to all hospitals in the new hospital programme. No scheme has been added or removed, and we are working with each trust in the programme to determine the most appropriate site in line with local needs and the needs of the individual scheme.

If I may make just one last point, the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, asked about consideration of invest to save, and I have to say that the Statement outlines exactly how we will proceed in this regard.

We know that we have to underline the under- capitalisation of the past; that is essential if we are going to fix the foundations of the NHS and if we are going to make it fit for the future. I hope that noble Lords will accept that this Statement represents a change. It is deliverable, manageable, transparent and will provide what it says it will do on the tin.

[Lord Mott (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the £102 million that the Minister referred to for the upgrade to GP estates. May I ask how many of those will be in Cambridgeshire? Has any assessment been made of the pressure that the upgrade of those GP estates will take off the NHS? The Minister said that often people cannot get a GP appointment and therefore tend to go to A&E. Has any assessment been made of how much pressure will be taken off and, more importantly, the quality of care given to people who are able to go to their local GP instead of having often to go to A&E?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

While I cannot answer exactly on Cambridgeshire, which the noble Lord raises, I can say that the department and NHS England are working with integrated care boards to ensure that there is a priority on high-impact projects where investment will unlock all the things we are all looking for, which are significant productivity gains and additional usable space from existing buildings. Of course, ICBs are responsible for that. I perhaps should also make the point that this is the first dedicated national capital fund for primary care since 2020. The noble Lord rightly quoted me back about the benefits of investing in GP practice. We are probably all familiar with that. There have been a number of reviews, including, of course, the independent review of the noble Lord, Lord Darzi, which spoke to the point about the need for capital investment in primary care.

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

My Lords, will my noble friend the Minister and the ministerial team at health accept my congratulations that they have had the courage to come up with a realistic programme, whereas what we had before was fantasy? This is very important. I read the Darzi report, and it has been clear that for years capital money has been used in order to fill revenue gaps at the end of the year because, basically, the whole system was underfunded. It is also clear that, as well as wanting to put the estate and buildings right, there is a tremendous need for investment in hospital equipment, scanners and all the rest in order to improve quickly the effectiveness of delivering good services to patients, and that the Government have to balance these pressures. It looks to me as though they are doing it right.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I am, of course, delighted to accept the thanks from my noble friend, and I will indeed share it with the ministerial team. As has already been raised by the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, and as my noble friend has pointed out, robbing Peter to pay Paul does nothing; productivity, safety, quality of care and providing services, including tackling waiting lists, requires investment in capital and dealing with the state of buildings and the estate. I am sure that we have all seen many examples of where failure to invest has not helped at all. I am glad that my noble friend welcomes the investment that we are making, not just in new surgical hubs but scanners, beds and new radiotherapy machines to improve cancer treatment. All these are about tackling the waiting lists because we inherited the highest ever waiting lists and the lowest-ever patient satisfaction, and we are determined to turn that around.

[Lord in Waiting/Government Whip (Lord Cryer)]

My Lords, the annunciator tells me that Report is not due to begin again until 8.07 pm. Since the Statement fell short of the anticipated 40 minutes, I beg to move, from a packed House of Lords, that we adjourn during pleasure until 8.07 pm.

Community Pharmacy Closures

Baroness Merron Excerpts

Tuesday 28th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have to prevent community pharmacy closures.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government recognise that pharmacies are integral to the fabric of our communities. They provide an easily accessible front door to the NHS and are staffed by highly trained and skilled healthcare professionals. We have now recommenced the consultation with Community Pharmacy England on funding arrangements, which was not able to be concluded before the general election.

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

I thank the Minister for her response. Since 2017, there has been a net loss of 1,200 pharmacies in England, with 35% of closures occurring in 20% of the most deprived areas. The annual funding shortfall in England stands in excess of £100,000 per pharmacy—a rise from £67,000 since 2023. Between September 2022 and June 2024, the annual loss of pharmacy access was 3.4 million hours. Given this, does the Minister believe that pharmacies are in a healthy state to support the Pharmacy First service?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

Some 98% of pharmacies are signed up to Pharmacy First and I am glad about how it is developing. On the noble Baroness’s very real points, the majority of recent closures were the result of large pharmacy chains optimising their portfolios. As she is aware, community pharmacies are private businesses, although they earn most their income from the NHS. Those business models vary significantly.

Local authorities are required to undertake a pharmaceutical needs assessment every three years to assess whether the population is being served. Integrated care boards have to give regard to those needs assessments when they review applications from new contractors and seek to fill any gaps. This continues to be work in progress to which we must be alert, but it is also important to look at some of the reasons for the closures.

[Lord Fowler (CB)]

My Lords, is it not true that we have not used community pharmacies in this country to their full potential? That impression was confirmed for me when I was chairman of such a group. Should our policy not be to develop community pharmacies so that they make an even bigger contribution to public health in this country? Would it not be better if pharmacists’ income came from that kind of effort, rather than from asking them to rely on the sale of cosmetics and other over the counter, commercial products?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

Commercial over the counter products will have a part to play. However, I take the point that the noble Lord makes. I am sure it is true that their vital role, and the opportunities that they offer, were not exploited as much as they could have been—when I say “exploited”, I mean that in a positive way. The Minister for Care, Stephen Kinnock, issued a press release today. In his last point he says:

“I am committed to working closely with Community Pharmacy England to agree a package of funding that is reflective of the important support that they provide to patients up and down the country. I am confident that together we can get the sector back on its feet and fit for pharmacies and patients long into the future”.

[Baroness Winterton of Doncaster (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government are on the right track in recognising the role that community pharmacists can play in public health by preventing illness and reducing the number of people turning up at A&E. However, is my noble friend the Minister aware of reports that some GPs have been unwilling to direct patients to community pharmacists, even under the Pharmacy First programme? Will she look at whether further action is needed to ensure that GPs work with community pharmacists to deliver services to patients?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I am aware of the reports that my noble friend refers to. This is a new service; it needs to bed in. NHSE is working closely with ICBs, GPs and the community pharmacy sector to improve referrals. Funding has also been provided to ICBs for primary care network engagement leads, who should be well placed to support GP teams to refer into the service. We are aware of my noble friend’s point; we are acting on it and we will continue to keep it under review.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

Further to that important point, will the Government guide ICBs to commission additional services from pharmacies? They have often not been commissioned with a sustainable funding model. Dispensing is not enough. They can provide important preventive services and minor illness services. However, they need the commissioning revenue to enable them to sustain their position.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

That point is understood, which is why I thought it important to bring to your Lordships’ House the announcement in the media release from my ministerial colleague Stephen Kinnock. As I mentioned in answer to an earlier question, integrated care boards have a role to play. They should—in fact, they are required to—have regard to the pharmaceutical needs assessment conducted every three years by local authorities. That ought to identify where there are gaps and allow consideration of how to fill any such gaps.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, given the estimate that community pharmacies save some 38 million consultations that would otherwise have been in general practice each year, and the fact that 97% of pharmacy staff report shortages in accessing different medicines as prescribed, how are the Government planning to allow community pharmacies to adjust medicines—as has been recommended by Community Pharmacy England—so that they can modify prescriptions, rather than spend time recontacting the GP when they are themselves familiar with the items?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The noble Baroness raises a good point and work is continuing to resolve that. It might also be helpful to say that NHS England has commissioned an economic analysis of the cost of providing pharmaceutical services and that will inform future funding arrangements. I say that in answer to the point the noble Baroness made about the potential savings that can accrue if we maximise the role of pharmacies.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I understand the point that the Minister made about large chains rationalising their portfolios of premises. Have the Government and the NHS looked into whether the extra money made available to pharmacies from the Pharmacy First programme can make these pharmacies viable where they would not have been before? Secondly, what conversations are NHS England and the department having with retailers, community hubs or, where feasible, GP surgeries to provide local community pharmacy services in partnership with them?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The economic analysis by NHS England that I just referred to will be helpful in informing where we go next. I confess that I did not get all the detail of the noble Lord’s second point, so I will look at it in Hansard and I will be pleased to write to him.

[Baroness Humphreys (LD)]

Community pharmacy owners rated medicine supply instability as the most severe pressure their businesses face. This instability puts operational pressures on pharmacies and financial pressures on businesses, and for patients it can mean alarming delays. What measures are the Government taking to address the problems of medicine supply and their impact on hard-pressed community pharmacies?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I recognise that, as the noble Baroness says, there are some difficulties with the supplies of certain medicines. That has been going on for some time. We are therefore working to ensure that the supply chain is secure and robust and can meet the demands on it, which requires a detailed look. Work will continue, and I look forward to continuing to update your Lordships’ House about that.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not the case that the present health structures are not suitable for purpose? Do we not need to look at providing health centres that include a pharmacy, dentists, doctors and all other services in one place to get the maximum resources to the public?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My noble friend will be glad to know that bringing services together under one roof and designing them around the patient is exactly where this Government are going. I ask him to keep an eye out for the 10-year plan, which will address many of the points that he is making.

Young Disabled People: Social Care Services

Baroness Merron Excerpts

Tuesday 28th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Monckton of Dallington Forest]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have to address demand for support from young, disabled people and their families, particularly in relation to provision of social care services, as they transition to adulthood.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government recognise the difficulties that young disabled people and their families can face when they transition into adult social care. This has been a neglected area, which is why the Department of Health and Social Care is now working across government to identify opportunities to better support young people and their families at this crucial stage in their lives. My ministerial colleague, the Minister for Care, Stephen Kinnock, has recently met his counterpart at the Department for Education to discuss how the two departments can make progress on this issue.

[Baroness Monckton of Dallington Forest (Con)]

My Lords, for many people with learning disabilities, transition into adulthood is purely chronological. Their needs and care requirements remain exactly the same. Parents have described this transition into post-18 services as like jumping off a cliff.

I was approached by the parents of Cameron, a young man with severe learning disabilities. Melanie, his mother, was a nurse for 30 years, and his father, David, was a Royal Marine commando who fought in three wars. Their professional life serving the community and their country has not prepared them for the battle they are facing with Somerset Council to get the right accommodation for their son. Melanie told me that the day he turned 18, all support fell away. Will the Minister accept that these are the same people, with the same condition and the same continuing needs, and that, as part of adult social care reform, there needs to be a separate category for people with learning disabilities, who are so neglected? In this spirit, would His Majesty’s Government consider a Minister for learning disabilities?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I understand and am sympathetic to the points that the noble Baroness makes about Cameron and his family. I listened very closely to the concerns that she raised. As I mentioned in my Answer, we are very aware and absolutely accept that the services are not in the places they need to be. That is why I made the commitment to work closely with the relevant department.

Looking to the future, as recently as November we published what I regard as a very ambitious and wide-ranging whole-system plan, called Keeping Children Safe, Helping Families Thrive. It seeks to break the cycle of crisis intervention and to rebalance the system back towards earlier help for families, which I hope would have been helpful in the situation the noble Baroness describes. All local authorities, including Somerset, have to set out the support available for those with special educational needs and disabilities as they move into adulthood.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, the duty of local authorities to carry out a transition assessment includes whether the child, or their carer, is likely to have needs for care and support after the child in question becomes 18. In the light of that, what resources and guidance are the Government giving to local authorities about the needs of the carers of those transitioning to adulthood? Does the complexity of this whole issue not indicate the need for care co-ordination?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

It certainly does. The noble Baroness has been positive about the plans that we have for the independent commission, led by the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, to resolve once and for all, on a cross-party basis, adult social care. The noble Baroness makes a very good point about the role of carers. Indeed, when we think of a young carer particularly, it is crucial that their needs are considered and that support is given. It is part of the whole way in which we support someone who needs social care, no matter what their age.

[Lord Laming (CB)]

My Lords, when the Public Services Committee took evidence on the transitional arrangements for young people with disabilities, we experienced two extremes in that evidence. One was that the transfer from education services to social care services was badly handled in a lot of authorities. As the noble Baroness, Lady Monckton, said, it felt like falling off a cliff, with young people then described as unemployable. The second, which was quite inspiring, was where local authorities had established a local hub where employers could meet these young people. They discovered there things that could benefit both sides, and that the young people blossomed in work. Will the Minister do everything possible to encourage the second?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The noble Lord is correct to reference the committee’s findings. People should not be written off as unable to work. It is about getting the right support in place, with the right provisions and at the right time. I certainly share his view. That is why we are working across government to achieve the very thing that he talks about.

[Baroness Pitkeathley (Lab)]

My Lords, I was with someone this morning who has a son at this stage and was told that the earliest time when they could have a transition interview would be December 2026. In the meantime, the only support they are getting is from the local branch of Mencap. As well as co-operation between health and social care, will the Government commit to supporting the voluntary sector, which provides such important services in this regard?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I have direct experience of the value of charities such as Mencap, and I thank it and all the other third sector organisations involved. I agree with my noble friend about the need to incorporate all sectors. That is the only way that we will provide the right provision in a timely fashion.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, we know it is true not only for this care service but for many health and care services that there is often concern when, upon reaching adulthood, the patient has to move from paediatric care to adult services—we have had a number of debates on that in this House. Often, that can involve a change of medical staff, from a clinician or caseworker who knows the patient to someone who is a stranger, as it were. Can the Minister tell noble Lords what guidance there is for the clinician or the health worker looking after the child, as well as for the clinician who will be looking after the child when they are an adult, whereby they talk to each other to ensure as smooth a transition as possible?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The transition assessment has to cover the whole range of provision, including healthcare, as the noble Lord rightly says. That is already embedded. I refer back to the point of my noble friend: it is indeed true that there are long waiting lists for transition assessments, which is far from ideal. This means that people are suffering from late planning and insufficient support, which we want to put right, no matter where the requirement comes from, whether it is in health, education or employment.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

The Minister may recall that, in 2022, the Down Syndrome Act was passed by your Lordships’ House, having been introduced in another place by Sir Liam Fox MP and in this House by my noble friend Lady Hollins. Can the Minister tell us how far we have got in implementing the terms of that Act, especially in helping those with Down syndrome to find employment in the workplace?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

It is a good point. I will be pleased to look into it in greater detail and write to the noble Lord.

[Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I had not intended to speak but I want to reach out to the noble Baroness, Lady Monckton, as I understand her frustration and why she is upset. I declare an interest as a mother of a child in this situation—he is now an adult, at 46 years old. That is precisely what happened to my family and my son; the service was no longer fit for purpose. There are hundreds and thousands of parents feeling exactly the same angst. Will the Minister’s review therefore build in space for advocacy on behalf of parents in any forward-looking strategy that the Government are considering?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The role of advocacy is extremely important. I take on board what the noble Baroness is saying.

[Baroness Bull (CB)]

My Lords, can the Minister say what the Government are doing to persuade employers of the value of employing a diverse workforce, including those with learning disabilities?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I would be pleased to get some specific detail, but I agree with the noble Baroness—there are huge benefits both ways, as was said earlier. We are keen to promote and support this, to get as many people into employment as possible, and to let employers benefit. I will gladly write to the noble Baroness.

Mental Health Bill [HL]

Baroness Merron Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 27th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe (Con)]

My Lords, I believe we would all accept—and, personally, I am in no doubt—that my noble friend Lady Browning possesses a breadth and depth of experience in matters relating to autism and learning disability. By that, I mean that she has not just a familiarity with the day-to-day challenges of life for individuals with one or more of these conditions but a knowledge of the practical frustrations and hurdles that often have to be overcome if the best interests of such individuals are to be properly defended.

It is amply clear from what my noble friend has said that, if this amendment were inserted into the Bill, it would have the potential to make a material and beneficial difference to the process of discharging certain patients from a secure mental health unit in particular types of situations. As my noble friend said, and as we all know, there have been many instances where autistic patients have been detained inappropriately and for long periods under the Mental Health Act and where families have struggled to secure their relatives’ release.

I cannot see a logical reason why a mental health tribunal should not be placed on an equal legal footing with the Court of Protection in this very limited respect. I hope the Minister will agree.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)]

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, for tabling Amendment 128 and for her contribution, along with that of the noble Earl, Lord Howe.

On the proposals in Amendment 128, I can tell your Lordships that, under the current tribunal procedure rules, the tribunal can direct responsible authorities, which could be a local authority or an NHS body, to provide evidence. The practice directions that apply in mental health cases place a requirement on the responsible authority to provide reports and records relating to the patient’s detention treatment and any after-care plans. The tribunal can use these reports to decide whether the detention criteria are being met. Therefore, it appears that the tribunal has extensive powers to require responsible authorities to provide the information to support its decision on whether to discharge a patient. I hope that the noble Baroness will be satisfied with this response and will withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Browning (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for his support from the Front Bench and to the Minister for her reply. Although it was very reassuring, could I ask her to clarify something? Has the level of information leading to a proper discharge plan under the existing powers of tribunals been set in primary legislation, which is what I am asking for under this Bill, or is it in secondary legislation or guidance?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I am happy to confirm that to the noble Baroness. The important thing for me is that we make sure that, as always, we can move with best practice and keep up with what is needed. With that in mind, I will confirm that later to the noble Baroness to ensure that I am correctly answering her detailed question.

[Baroness Browning (Con)]

I am grateful to the Minister, as always. She is always helpful with these difficult points. I will just flag up that if the tribunal power to get that information in order to encourage more discharges is not in statute, then perhaps we will return to it at a later date. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Bradley. As usual, he has been very sensible and measured in the amendments he has tabled. As the noble Lord reminded us, he has been very patient on many of the measures he is proposing.

I will speak to Amendment 140, which is also in the name of my noble friend Lord Howe, and hopefully touch on some of the amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Bradley. On a positive note, I will say how much we welcome Clause 46 and its removal of police stations and prisons as places of safety under the Mental Health Act. I think that noble Lords across the Committee welcome that, and the Government are to be congratulated on it.

The Wessely review stated:

“Far and away the best way to improve the care and outcomes for those with the severest mental illnesses is to provide more and better alternatives to detention”.


It also remarked that, all too often, opportunities for early intervention were missed. The report noted that this means that the first contact a patient often has is with the police, rather than with a mental health professional. I know we have discussed this and the overall involvement of police a number of times in Committee. I am sure we may come back to this on Report, but all noble Lords are aware that this must be addressed. Clause 46 is therefore very important in implementing that recommendation from the Wessely review.

I want to focus on a sentence that comes after the recommendation in the Wessely report:

“That means that, where they do not currently exist, health-based places of safety will need to be commissioned”.


I think this goes to the heart of the issue the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, was talking about—implementation but also data. Amendment 140 attempts to probe the Government. It would require the Secretary of State to publish a report on alternative places of safety for patients who are liable to be detained, particularly focusing on community care. We need to know this; as the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, said, we need the data.

Noble Lords have raised many times that we know that everything is not going to be done overnight. We understand that. We know there is a 10-year timeframe. We want a better understanding of what will be delivered when. Some of it will be subject to spending reviews, but some of it will be delivered whatever the result of a spending review. It is all very well saying that police stations and prisons and cannot be used as places of safety—no disagreement there—but this will mean that patients have to be placed elsewhere. Clause 46(2)(a) states that a place of safety for an adult is

“any hospital the managers of which are willing temporarily to receive that person”.

So far, the Bill seems to say—the Minister may correct me—that the only place of safety is a hospital. If I have misunderstood, I am prepared to be corrected, but as all noble Lords will know, that is not always ideal. Capacity in hospitals is in short supply. What will happen if a place of safety is needed but there are no appropriate hospitals nearby that are willing to receive that person, for lack of available space or staff? That is why this amendment places a focus on community-based alternatives for places of safety. If we can shift some of the burden here away from hospitals and into the community, part of the problem might be alleviated.

On an earlier amendment, Amendment 151, the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, said that we all know that capacity in the community is currently quite limited. The report required by my amendment would enable the Secretary of State and the Department for Health and Social Care to consider and create a plan to develop greater capacity in the community for this purpose. We understand that not everything can be delivered now, but we would like to see a plan so that we can understand the Government’s intentions, their own timeframe and how they intend to roll this out. The amendment once again aims to probe the Government on their implementation plan.

I thank the Minister for meeting my noble friend Lord Howe and me to discuss appropriate places of safety. In that meeting, the Minister mentioned the community crisis houses that the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, alluded to, and said that her department was investigating how these might be used as alternatives to hospital or, indeed, police stations. As Mind says on its website, crisis houses provide

“intensive, short-term support to help manage a mental health crisis in a residential setting, rather than in a hospital”.

They can vary; some may simply provide temporary overnight accommodation to ensure that those experiencing mental health crises have a safe space away from other areas of their life, while others may provide treatment as well. Many of these crisis houses are operated by voluntary and civil society organisations.

One of my great passions in politics is to champion the role of local community civil society groups, so that we do not always have to look to the state to provide all the solutions. I think that there is some real promise here, and the Government are to be congratulated on it, for the provision of community crisis houses to be expanded, so that they can act as health-based places of safety, as the Wessely review recommended.

The questions I have at this stage for the Minister are in the nature of a probing amendment. What progress has the department made in exploring these community crisis houses and, indeed, other community-based places of safety, as alternatives to police stations and prison cells? Can the Minister tell us, when the Government are implementing the provisions of Clause 46 and commissioning health-based places of safety, whether they will include discussions with local civil society organisations and charities about how best to implement them, perhaps in partnership? I am sure she will recognise that their expertise will be highly beneficial and that they often know their local community much better than officials do, whether those be national officials or sometimes even local government officials. I appreciate that the Minister will not necessarily have all the answers tonight but, if not, I look forward not only to her comments but to the letter that she will promise to write to us afterwards.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Bradley for his contribution and for Amendments 128A and 163B. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, for speaking to Amendment 140 in his name and that of the noble Earl, Lord Howe. We are committed to implementing these reforms as soon as is it safe and practical to do so. We will return to this matter on the next day in Committee.

As I have said before—I know that noble Lords have heard this—we are reluctant to commit to enacting single provisions or publishing single plans or reports at specific times, given their dependence on so many other developments, particularly spending reviews. Removing police stations and prisons as places of safety under Section 55, and removing police stations under Sections 135, 136 and 136A will, as noble Lords suggest, require making sure that viable alternatives and clear pathways into support are fully established and in place. Commencing by regulations enables the reforms to be enacted once this is the case.

I know that my noble friend Lord Bradley is aware of this, but I will repeat it in respect of these amendments. Officials from my department, the Ministry of Justice and the Home Office are working with health and justice partners across government to develop the necessary plans to ensure that sufficient resources and the right processes are in place, and to establish clear timelines for implementation.

Mental Health Bill [HL]

Baroness Merron Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 27th January 2025 Lords Chamber

I urge the Minister to see what can be done to ensure that the provisions of this Bill relating to the appointment and role of nominated persons can be made fully compatible with the provisions of the Children Act, and, most especially, the best interests test that that Act lays down as the iron principle governing this entire field of law.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for an extremely helpful debate. I want to say how much I understand the concerns around the nominated person regarding children and parents, and the great need to get this right in the way that noble Lords have rightly unpicked today.

It is very important that parents are involved in a child or young person’s care. I say to noble Lords, as this has come up before, that we do not intend or wish to undermine the rights or responsibilities of parents. In the vast majority of cases, the nominated person for a child or young person will be their parent or whoever has parental responsibility, either because they have decided that themselves, with the relevant competence or capacity, or because they are appointed by the approved mental health professional.

For under-16s the Bill sets out that if they lack competence to make this decision, the approved mental health professional must appoint a parent, or a person or local authority with parental responsibility. The Bill aligns with the Mental Capacity Act on decision-making capability, with young people aged 16 and over considered to have the capacity to make relevant decisions. We think it is important, as I know noble Lords do, that children and young people have the right to choose a nominated person, and I understand the need to get the nominated person right. Some 67% of over 1,200 respondents to the White Paper consultation supported extending this right to under-16s.

We must have the right processes and safeguards for all patients, and additional protections for children and young people. These safeguards will cover the nomination process and the ability to overrule the nominated person or remove someone from the role if they are not acting in the patient’s best interests. The noble Baronesses, Lady Bennett and Lady Berridge, and the noble Lord, Lord Meston, have all put forward amendments to give responsibility to the tribunal or the Court of Protection in these matters. The county court already has a role in displacing the nearest relative. We believe that it has the expertise, procedural tools and legal framework to handle sensitive disputes involving external parties, such as conflicts of interest or allegations of abuse. I emphasise the word “sensitive”. I believe that the debate today has acknowledged that we are in very sensitive territory and that we need to get this right.

The noble Lord, Lord Meston, mentioned the training of judges. I can confirm that we will be working with the county court to ensure that it is aware of and can fulfil the requirements of the new provision.

The noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, asked for figures on county court applications, and I will be very glad to write to her and answer her fully. Similarly, I will be very pleased to write to her in detail on the matter of legal aid.

The Act and the Bill allow for someone who is not acting in the interests of the patient to be overruled or removed from this role. On Amendment 68 specifically, the Bill enables the responsible clinician to overrule the nominated person on the grounds included the amendment, so I am grateful for its being brought before us today. This will be quicker and will avoid burdens on the tribunal.

On Amendment 69, transferring the role of the nominated person to the Court of Protection would expand the court’s remit to under-16s. Currently, the court can deal only with the financial affairs of under-16s. The Court of Protection makes decisions for those lacking capacity, but patients need to have capacity to have appointed their own nominated person. Where they lack capacity or competence, the approved mental health professional will appoint, and the Bill sets out the grounds for them to terminate the appointment.

On Amendments 77 and 84, the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, asked about the concept of a temporary nominated person. This is in recognition that such an appointment by an approved mental health professional is only until the person concerned has the relevant capacity or competence to choose their own—that is what is meant by the word “temporary” here.

The First-tier Tribunal (Mental Health) in England and the Mental Health Review Tribunal for Wales are focused on reviewing detention under the Mental Health Act. The provisions of the amendments would add additional burden on that tribunal. My concern is that it would risk undermining its core function and delay detention reviews, which I know is not something that noble Lords would wish.

Amendment 70, tabled by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, would specify that parents, guardians and anyone with parental responsibility can apply to the court to displace a nominated person. The Bill already allows anyone involved in the patient’s care or welfare to apply to the county court to terminate the appointment of a nominated person. This includes parents, guardians and anyone with parental responsibility, as her amendment seeks.

On Amendments 72 and 73, in the names of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, I wholeheartedly agree that the law has to prevent exploitation and manipulation. The nomination process is indeed intended to ensure that the decision is the patient’s own. I recognise the circumstances that the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and other noble Lords described as possibilities. We have to consider all the potential scenarios, which are very real challenges to us. A health or social care professional, or an advocate, must witness the nomination and confirm in writing that the nominated person is suitable and that there has been no fraud or undue pressure. On the point the noble Earl raised, the code of practice will include guidance on how to determine this.

Amendment 76 was tabled by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. We understand the desire to involve parents in the decision, and for the vast majority this will be appropriate. We are concerned that the amendment’s requirement to consult a parent, guardian or someone with parental responsibility could risk undermining the principle of giving children and young people a choice. It could also, in a different way, pressure the child into choosing the parent, in circumstances that might be far from desirable. Although we do not think that we should require consultation with the parents in all circumstances, we would expect the witness to discuss the nomination with parents and others with interest in the welfare of the child as part of the assessment of suitability. We will consult on guidance in the code on how practitioners should encourage the child or young person to involve their parents, even if they are not the nominated person, unless it is inappropriate.

On Amendment 82, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, I agree that parents and carers are to be given information about the care and treatment of their child. If a child nominates a person other than their parent as their nominated person, their parents retain legal rights under parental responsibility. These rights include the right to be consulted on certain decisions and to receive information about the child’s care. The Bill also introduces a duty on the responsible clinician to consult with people involved in the child’s welfare on care and treatment planning, which includes parents and carers.

With those comments in mind, I ask noble Lords not to press their amendments.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her careful and detailed response to an important group of amendments. It may affect only a small number of cases, but they are cases where we really need to get this right. Those two adjectives apply very well to this whole debate.

I will make a couple of comments in response. We have had three suggestions about where the applications to remove the nominated person should be. Personally, I do not have a strong view. I thought the point from the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, about legal aid was important. Justice unfunded is justice denied, so it really is important that there is that full and necessary support, wherever they end up.

With that, I pick up the important point made by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, about the witness being such an important person to ensure that this process goes well. The noble Earl talked about making sure the guidance is right. I add that we have to make sure that the resources are there, thinking about our overstretched mental health services. We need to ensure that the person who will be the witness has the time to put in the resources to ensure that they can properly be a witness. It may not be a subject of law, but it certainly needs to be thought about.

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[Earl Howe (Con)]

My Lords, in this group of amendments my noble friend Lady Berridge has raised an armada of issues which I think it is clear to all of us cannot be ducked. These issues, as she said, were examined at length both during the independent review and by the Joint Committee, but it has to be said that in both instances it proved too much of a challenge to identify a satisfactory resolution to them. For that reason, as we observed in our debate on the previous group, the weight of these matters now rests on the shoulders of this Committee and of the Government.

In summary, we need arrangements that are robust enough to ensure that a nominated person’s appointment can be effectively challenged, and that, in certain circumstances, where necessary, the exercise of their powers can be legally contested and blocked. Without those measures, we shall leave an unacceptable lacuna in the law and, more pertinently, run a high risk of exposing children to personal danger.

My noble friend is to be thanked for assisting this Committee’s deliberations with the clear way in which she has set out the challenge, and I hope and trust that the Minister will wish to grip the challenge with her usual vigour.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, like the noble Earl, Lord Howe, I am most grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, for introducing an appropriately wide range of scenarios, questions and testing. That is important for the Committee but also for our ongoing work. As the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, said, to describe this area as complex is to use too small a word, and I think we are all wrestling with that to get it in the right place. I know that noble Lords are aware that the work is ongoing, and I thank them for their engagement and interest in this issue. As I said previously, I very much understand the need for a robust process to keep children and young people safe and ensure that only appropriate individuals can take on the role of nominated person, while giving children and young people that right to choose.

I will respond collectively to the amendments put forward in this group. As I set out earlier, we agree that in the vast majority of cases there is an expectation that a parent or whoever has parental responsibility would take on this role, and that would include consideration of special guardians and child arrangement orders. We also agree that, where parental responsibility has been removed due to care proceedings, in the vast majority of cases it is unlikely to be appropriate for such a person to take up this role. My reference to this being a complicated area—

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

Perhaps the noble Baroness will let me make a bit of progress.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

I think I need to clarify a point of law—I am looking to the noble Lord, Lord Meston. In care proceedings, is parental responsibility removed? I do not believe it is; it remains with the parents. That is very important.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

It is shared.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I thank noble Lords for that exchange, which brings me to my repeated point about the complicated area in which we are treading.

As was highlighted by the pre-legislative scrutiny committee, we will set out our expectations in the code of practice as to whom approved mental health professionals would appoint, or the witness would confirm suitability of, in a range of circumstances, including in the more and most complex cases. We will consult on this to ensure that we cover as many scenarios as we can.

I can confirm to the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, that we are working with NHS England, the Department for Education, the Association of Directors of Children’s Services and others to ensure that our policy and guidance reflect what can be a very complex arrangement for some children under the Children Act.

The Bill is clear that where an approved mental health professional is appointing a nominated person for an under-16 they must appoint someone who has parental responsibility, and the amendments extend this approach to all under-18s. As I said previously, we are allowing more flexibility for 16 and 17 year-olds rather than prescribing in legislation who this must be.

While the amendments put forward a wide range of circumstances, we all know—and the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, demonstrated this—that there will be nuanced and complex cases, especially for 16 and 17 year-olds. Someone outside the proposed list, such as a step-parent, may be the most appropriate person, or a kinship care arrangement may be in place. These amendments propose regulatory powers in recognition of this but we feel that updating statutory guidance will allow us to keep this up to date and in review as new policy is implemented.

The noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, asked about differences between special guardian orders and special care orders. The Bill says that the approved mental health professional must appoint the local authority or anyone else with parental responsibility as the nominated person. The special guardian, as someone with parental responsibility, would be appointed if a special guardianship order was in place. In relation to the proposal for two people to take on this role, as the nominated person exercises specific statutory functions under the Mental Health Act, we feel it is right that only one person has these limited powers, to avoid the potential for disagreement and confusion about who can exercise the relevant power.

We recognise that there will usually be more than one person with parental responsibility and that the approved mental health professional will need to determine who should be the nominated person. Under the current system, this would be the older parent, which we do not think is necessarily appropriate. We will provide guidance for approved mental health professionals in the code of practice. This may include which of the parents is recorded as the child’s next of kin, who the child lives with and who is accompanying the child.

The noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, helpfully inquired about the status of the nominated persons paper that was sent out in an attempt to be helpful. It was developed very much to support the debate, which it certainly has done, and we intend to develop it further. I very much welcome the further engagement from Peers and we will continue to formally consult as part of the code of practice so that it is an aid to the considerations of noble Lords. I hope it is doing that.

In the current nearest relative provision, only one parent will hold this role. As I mentioned in the previous debate, this will not exclude the other parent from being involved in their child’s care. Whether or not they are the nominated person, parents and carers should be given information about the care and treatment of their child, unless it is inappropriate. This is reflected in the Bill. We absolutely agree that someone should be removed as the nominated person if they are not acting in the interest of the patient. Criteria are included in the Bill for when an approved mental health professional may terminate an appointment, one of which is when the person is

“otherwise not a suitable person to act as a nominated person”.

On the points made by a number of noble Lords, suitability includes whether there is any risk to the patient. This may include if the person is behaving in a way that indicates they are unsuitable for the role; for example, if they are exercising their powers without due regard to the welfare of the person.

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[Baroness Browning (Con)]

Reflecting on what the Minister has just said, would that close the Bournewood gap, which we tried to close in earlier legislation, where a professional carer cared for an autistic man who was not able to articulate for himself, but was overruled by the clinician? I am just trying to get my head round what she has just said because that was the Bournewood gap and, as the Minister will know, it ended up in the European Court before it was resolved.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

We need to be considering that as one of the scenarios and I would certainly be very glad to give the noble Baroness and noble Lords a more considered response to the very important point that has just been raised.

Under this policy, an approved mental health professional would terminate their appointment if the nominated person is not acting in line with the patient’s interests. I really wish to emphasise this.

For all these reasons and the responses I have given, I hope that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who have spoken and for the considered nature of the response and the clarification regarding the special guardianship. However, as we have outlined, other people remain having parental responsibility and it seems that under the Bill, as it is only one person, it could be that the residual person still has parental responsibility. It could just be that person under the Bill and not, in that situation, who is appointed.

I am concerned, not only by the outline at the beginning in relation to parental responsibility being removed. I just feel that there is a lack of understanding—with all due respect to the Minister’s diligence, thoroughness and engagement with colleagues—about the depth of the issue that we have here. She mentioned “would” appoint. That seems something that can be under the Mental Health Act code—“would” seems to be that as long as you document your reasons for that, you can move. It seems that from the situation I have outlined, in which the 16 or 17 year-old has been removed from the dad’s care because he has been shown to be, and proven by the family court to be, a danger, he could be appointed as the nominated person. Then we are relying on a speedy process in the county court—which we are not sure we always get legal aid for—to remove him. I am concerned by phrases such as “more flexibility for 16 and 17 year-olds”. Does that include the 16 and 17 year-olds who are under special guardianship or where there is a care order?

It seems that there is a conflict, based on what the co-leader of the AMHPs is saying, what the review has said and what the response says. We have a conflict between two pieces of legislation that we must continue to grapple with. On phrases such as “working with the DfE”, I asked specifically whether there had been a meeting with the Minister for Children and Families. The responsibility for a serious case review sits with that department. If we are to some extent right, this risk to children will manifest itself in an imperfect system. Obviously, there are professionals and clinicians, but we all know of cases that have gone wrong and ended up in inquiries.

I remain concerned by the lack of clarification on legal advice. Legally, in some ways this is fascinating—but it is not fascinating because it involves child protection. I welcome the engagement and I am sure that we will meet again in regard to this, but the severity of the risks that we are exposing, and allowing young people and AMHPs to go behind findings of fact in the family courts made under the Children Act is an incredibly serious issue. I hope that the Minister will be furnished with that kind of geeky legal advice, because for the children’s sake we need that.

However, I am grateful for the manner of her engagement and of course beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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Moved by

[Baroness Merron]

87: Clause 31, page 42, line 37, leave out paragraph (a)
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment, my other amendments to Clause 31 and my new clause inserted after Clause 31 would provide for commencement two months after Royal Assent of provisions about tribunal reviews concerning patients subject to conditions amounting to a deprivation of liberty.

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Moved by

[Baroness Merron]

94: After Clause 31, insert the following new Clause—
“References: restricted patients not subject to deprivation of liberty conditions(1) The Mental Health Act 1983 is amended as follows.(2) In section 71 (references by Secretary of State concerning restricted patients), for subsection (2) substitute—“(2) The Secretary of State must refer to the appropriate tribunal the case of any restricted patient detained in a hospital if—(a) the patient’s case has not been considered by the appropriate tribunal within the last 12 months, whether on the patient’s own application or otherwise, and(b) there is no pending application or reference to the appropriate tribunal in relation to the patient’s case.” (3) In section 75 (applications and references concerning conditionally discharged restricted patients)—(a) before subsection (2C) (as inserted bysection 31(3)(a)of this Act) insert—“(2B) Where a restricted patient has been conditionally discharged, is not subject to conditions amounting to a deprivation of liberty and has not been recalled to hospital, the Secretary of State must refer the patient’s case to the appropriate tribunal on the expiry of—(a) the period of two years beginning—(i) in the case of a patient who has previously been subject to conditions amounting to a deprivation of liberty, with the date on which the patient most recently ceased to be subject to such conditions, and(ii) in any other case, with the date on which the patient was conditionally discharged, and(b) each subsequent period of four years.”;(b) in subsection (2D), after “subsection” insert “(2B) or”;(c) in subsection (2E) omit “, is subject to conditions amounting to a deprivation of liberty”;(d) in subsection (2F), after “subsection” insert “(2B),”;(e) in subsection (2H), after “subsection” insert “(2B),”;(f) in subsection (3), after “subsection”, in the second place it occurs, insert “(2B),”.(4) The amendments made by this section apply in relation to any person who is a restricted patient within the meaning given by subsection (1) of section 79 of the Mental Health Act 1983, or is treated as a restricted patient as a result of that subsection, whether the person became such a patient (or treated as such a patient) before or after the coming into force of this section.”Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for my amendment to Clause 31, page 42, line 37.

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[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their amendments and considerations, including the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, for her observations on the group before us.

On Amendment 99, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, services already capture data on instances of police using relevant powers to take patients to emergency departments. The Home Office collects national policing data on detentions under Section 136 of the Act and removal to a place of safety, including the number of times that A&E has been used. NHS England’s emergency care dataset includes data on mental health, including how patients are referred to hospital and their conveyance methods. I understand the points that the noble Lord was seeking to probe, but we feel that it is not necessary to create a new legislative requirement.

My response to Amendment 137, also tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, will focus on the position in England, because I imagine that that is what the noble Lord is particularly interested in, and of course different arrangements apply in Wales. We recognise the importance of preventing illegal drug use in mental health units and take the issue extremely seriously. All units must have robust policies in place to prevent the introduction of illegal drugs. To pick up the point that the noble Lord put to me about the recording of drug-related incidents, I assure him that such incidents would be recorded as a patient safety incident. While published data does not break down the nature of an incident to get an aggregate view at national level, details of incidents will nevertheless be shared with NHSE and the CQC to allow appropriate action then to be taken.

As I have referred to, providers must inform the CQC of certain events affecting their services. Inspectors review all reported concerns, as I have said, and that is important to determine the necessary follow-up actions. Issues that relate to the introduction and use of illegal drugs in an in-patient setting would be reflected in the CQC’s regulatory inspection findings where concerns have been identified, with potential consequences for ratings and for regulatory sanctions. We believe that there are already processes in place for the CQC in England to receive information about drug-related incidents. We feel that this is a better use of the capacity—which is not infinite, as the noble Lord knows—of the regulator, rather than having a national report on the overall efficacy of the systems that are in place.

Amendment 151 was tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, and spoken to by a number of noble Lords, and I am grateful for their input. A number of other amendments have called for statutory reports on current community services. As I have said previously in response to those debates, we recognise that reducing detentions cannot be achieved by legislation alone, and will absolutely depend on the right services in the community. The CQC publishes an annual survey on community mental health support, and we will be publishing a 10-year plan for the NHS later this year. Progress in community mental health services is already being made. In the last 12 months, more than 400,000 adults have received help through new models of care, which aim to give people with severe mental illness greater choice and control over their care. However, we recognise that more needs to be done.

I want to pick out a particular focus on innovation in this amendment. The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, referred to the fact that the impact assessment does not include costs for community services. That is not quite the case. There are significant costs associated with the changes to learning disability and autism, which are included in the impact assessment. I agree that wider reforms in community mental health services are needed for the reforms to achieve their intended benefits in full, but they are not a direct consequence of this Bill. That is why they are not costed in the impact assessment. I hope that will be a useful clarification for the noble Baroness.

As I mentioned last Monday, NHS England is already piloting the 24/7 neighbourhood mental health centre model in England, building on learning from international exemplars, some of which have been brought to the attention of your Lordships’ House by various noble Lords, and I have welcomed that. Six early implementers are bringing together their community crisis and in-patient functions into one open-access neighbourhood team that is available 24 hours a day, seven days a week. That means that people with mental health needs can walk in, or self-refer, as can their loved ones or concerned professionals. We are currently commissioning an evaluation of these welcome pilots, which is due to report in June 2026.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, referred to reports last week of an increase in the number of young people admitted to general hospital wards with mental health concerns. NHS England is in the process of developing a new model for specialised children’s and young people’s mental health services, supported by a new service specification and quality standards. That new model would support the delivery of specialist services in the community and in-patient settings to ensure that children and young people are treated in age-appropriate in-patient environments, as well as the least restrictive environment close to the child’s or young person’s family and home. The noble Baroness’s point is well made, and I hope that will be helpful.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

I welcome what the Minister has said about the pilots and the significant changes being made to existing mental health services. Short of someone putting down an Oral Question or securing a debate, how will Parliament be able to monitor that? We know that, in the health service and more broadly, successful pilots happen but then disappear without trace and never get implemented. How will Parliament be able to assess progress from the pilot stage to implementation, along with broader changes? What mechanisms are there?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The noble Baroness makes a fair point, and that is something I shall return to later in Committee. I am keen, as I hope noble Lords know, to speak in your Lordships’ House about progress that is and is not made, and I will continue to do that.

Overall on this group, given the amount of plans and reporting already in place, we do not think that additional statutory review, particularly in relation to Amendment 151, is necessary. For all the reasons that I have put to the Committee, I hope noble Lords will be good enough not to press their amendments.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her response and thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this group. I should have also mentioned that I am very sympathetic to the intention behind Amendment 151 from the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett. Noble Lords throughout this debate have been speaking about community resources and accountability for those resources; indeed, I have a related amendment in the seventh group. In some ways, the Minister has partly answered that probing amendment.

I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, and will reflect on the points she made. As the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, said previously, this was a probing amendment to see what data was being collected. Noble Lords will understand that, if we want to improve a situation, we need to collect data. It may not be perfect, and perhaps we can have some conversations between now and Report about that. I am very grateful that the Minister said that this data is collected. I wonder if she could write to us with links to where it can be found. That could address some of the concerns raised by stakeholders who wrote to us, which led to this amendment being tabled.

I remember that, when I read the work of the pre-legislative scrutiny committee, the Metropolitan Police service’s submission said that, in 2021, for the first time more patients were conveyed to a health setting in a police vehicle than in an ambulance. I wonder if that is still true or if that situation has been reversed. The purpose of these amendments was to seek what data was available, so that we can address the problems that Amendment 99 and 137 sought to address. With those comments, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

In the absence of the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, I will just say that I support all these amendments. I expressed concern about under-16s and those aged 16-18, but that does not stop me thinking that these advance choice documents are an excellent plan. However, I am concerned about the point that the noble Baroness makes with Amendment 120. An independent mental health advocate would be extremely helpful, because there may be quite a lot of people who really would not know how to make an advance choice document, would be very concerned about it and might write down some really not very sensible things, when they could have help as to what they really wanted. I strongly support the noble Baroness’s amendment.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful for all the contributions in this group. I will start with Amendment 115, tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and supported by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall. Under the Bill, services should not only offer individuals who are likely to benefit from making an ACD information and support to do so, they should proactively support such individuals. This is functionally equivalent to a right to request an advance choice document.

The amendment applies to large groups. We have concerns that, for example, it may be practically challenging or sometimes inappropriate to contact people who were detained some time ago. We intend to identify groups in the code of practice that services should target; it can then be updated in response to changing best practice and emerging research.

On the point raised by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Stevens, and the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, about how advance choice document information is made available to patients, we will set out in the code of practice detailed guidance on how services should discharge their duties under the Bill to inform and support individuals to make an ACD. Any failure to implement the duty in this aspect of the code could ultimately be challenged in the courts. I hope that gives some indication of the strength of that provision in the Bill.

The noble Lord, Lord Stevens, raised the implementation timeline, as outlined in the impact assessment. We want to ensure that there is appropriate resource in the system before ACDs can be brought in. I am sure noble Lords understand that this is critical, for ACDs to have the right level of impact. For example, the effect of ACDs is dependent on the expansion of the second opinion appointed doctor service. In the meantime, services can, of course, progress with putting ACDs that deal with patient needs and wishes overall should they become detained. That would very much build on the work that South London and Maudsley, and others, have done.

I turn to Amendments 117 and 125 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Barker. I confirm that we are committed to mitigating the barriers that get in the way of creating an advance choice document. The code will make it clear that commissioners should provide accessible information in response to individual needs, with flexibility around how individuals make their preferences known—the point that the noble Baroness raised. We plan to create a standard advance choice document template for people to complete, with supporting guidance. That should prompt thoughts about the things that an individual may wish to consider and decide before they become unwell. I can assure noble Lords that the template will be available digitally as well as in hard copy. Our intention is that a digital version of the document will be created for easy access by professionals as needed.

Amendment 120, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, and spoken to by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, has the stated intention that mental health in-patients create an ACD. While the Bill does not prevent this, in most cases it will not be the best time, as patients may be very unwell and lack capacity. Insights from the South London and Maudsley NHS Foundation Trust with King’s College London suggest that encouraging people to create an advance choice document after discharge—when their health has improved and the support network can help—can be useful. The person’s community mental health team is best placed to provide support, rather than an independent mental health advocate whose role is to support people who are detained. The duty on commissioners in the Bill is intended to focus on the community and other contexts outside of hospital. We feel that this is more likely to increase the uptake of advance choice documents.

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

The crucial question that the noble Baroness is asking is around which staff can access this information and where. That means that the information in the ACD has to be always available to whoever is seeing the patient, wherever they happen to be. Does that mean that, as in palliative care, the ACD will become part of an electronic patient record, and that there will be an expectation that all practitioners, wherever they are, will refer to it all the time?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The noble Baroness makes a good point. I am sure she is aware that one of the main pillars of change as we move towards the 10-year plan is shifting from analogue to digital. I am sure that this will be part of those considerations.

I now turn to Amendment 121, tabled by my noble friend Lord Davies of Brixton and supported by the noble Baronesses, Lady Tyler and Lady Neuberger. The noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, spoke to this very amendment. We know that financial problems can worsen or trigger mental illness. We agree that individuals should be encouraged to include in their ACD any care and support to help them manage their financial circumstances when unwell. The code of practice will include guidance from professionals on this point, while the template will prompt people to consider financial matters.

On Amendment 122, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, and supported by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, it is important for practitioners to be aware of, and, where applicable, to consult with, the person’s attorney. However, we do not agree with requiring people to include all of the information contained in the lasting power of attorney in their ACD. The document is owned by the individual, who should be free to include what matters to them. Some of the information in a person’s lasting power of attorney may not be relevant, and copying over its contents may introduce inaccuracies due to human error. We intend to encourage service users to include the existence of an LPA where applicable in their advance choice documents, and practitioners can then be made aware and take the relevant steps.

On Amendment 123, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, we agree with the aim that is stated here. The code of practice will set out all of the groups which services should proactively target to make an advance choice document, including people on the dynamic support register. The code can be updated in line with emerging research and best practice, as I have said a number of times before, and can include detail and nuance that is not possible in primary legislation.

With those remarks from me in mind, I hope that noble Lords will feel able not to press their amendments.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

I have one very quick question. Throughout the whole of Committee, since day one, the Minister has referred to the code of practice being updated. Can she tell us the date by which it will have been updated? It is quite important for implementation and some dates that the Minister keeps referring to. If she cannot let us know now, she could write to the Committee.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I would be very glad to share the date if I could put a date on it. It will be after Royal Assent, and I will keep noble Lords updated.

[Earl Howe (Con)]

My Lords, I very much appreciate the support from around the Committee for my Amendment 115. I support all the other amendments in this group, each of which is designed to bolster the rigour and thoroughness of the advance choice document process.

It is good to hear from the Minister that the code of practice will include guidance on how information on ACDs will be made known to relevant would-be patients. I shall need to reflect on this, but I confess I retain a worry in this area. The CQC in its annual report of 2020-21 on monitoring the Mental Health Act reported that many patients do not have their rights explained to them during their treatment. This is despite the existing requirement in the Mental Health Act code of practice for hospital managers to provide information both orally and in writing. Clearly, if someone without an existing ACD is admitted to a mental health unit for treatment, it will be too late for them to execute a valid ACD during that episode of care. The time to be informed that an ACD could be an appropriate thing for them to draw up is once they are discharged, to cater for possible future contingencies.

I suggest that the CQCs finding is still relevant, its point being that the NHS is not all that good at providing information to patients in a timely or appropriate way. Therefore, I think that creating a duty to do so would add value—perhaps not in the precise terms I have used in the amendment, but in similar language. That could, incidentally, be achieved quite easily if mental health patients were automatically invited to complete a debriefing report following discharge from hospital in the way that I suggested in an earlier amendment.

The prize, let us remember, could be significant. I refer noble Lords back to remarks by the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, in an earlier debate, where she indicated that independent advocates have been proved as central to the success of advance choice documents—a facilitator, in other words. She referred to a study in North Carolina that showed that providing a facilitator in the form of an independent advocate increased the number of people making a psychiatric advance directive from 3% to 60%. That is a very powerful set of figures.

I hope the Minister will be open to further discussion on this and the other amendments in the group between now and Report. Meanwhile, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment 115.

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Moved by

[Baroness Merron]

127: Clause 43, page 55, line 35, after “provided” insert “or arranged”
Member's explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for my amendment to Clause 4, page 5, line 20.

Mental Health Bill [HL]

Baroness Merron Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 22nd January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, I add my support for Amendment 58, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins, and to which I have added my name. Briefly, given the time, the care and treatment plan is a major plank, a pivotal safeguard of the Bill. The safeguard is not open to voluntary patients. As the noble Baroness outlined, we want to encourage many young people to voluntarily enter a hospital to get the treatment that they need. A 2021 UCL research project found that only 23.6% of young people were detained involuntarily. The large cohort would be those who have consented by parental consent and those who voluntarily entered the treatment. As such a high proportion of the under-18 population are entering voluntarily, it is imperative that they also have a care and treatment plan.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for the pertinent points that they have made.

I will start with Amendments 57 and 58. There is no doubt that all patients who are in a mental health hospital for care and treatment should have a care plan, whether or not they have been detained under the Act. This is already set out in guidance for commissioners and in the NHS England service specification and care standards for children’s and young people’s services. In line with the independent review’s findings and recommendations, care and treatment plans for involuntary or detained patients are statutory. This is because such patients are subject to restrictions and compulsory orders, including compulsory treatment, which places them in a uniquely vulnerable position.

Rather than bringing voluntary patients into the scope of this clause, we feel it is more appropriate to use the Mental Health Act’s code of practice to embed high standards of care planning for all patients—voluntary and involuntary. Specifically with regard to children and young people, any provisions that are relevant to voluntary patients are already met by existing specialist care planning standards and the NHS England national service specification for children’s and young people’s services, which providers are contractually obliged to follow. NHS England is already in the process of strengthening that current service specification.

Regarding points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, and my noble friend Lord Davies on the contents of the care and treatment plan and patient discharge plan, as my noble friend Lord Davies kindly set out for me, which I appreciate, the Government have consulted on the required contents of the care and treatment plan, as originally proposed by the independent review. The expected contents of the plan are described in the delegated powers memorandum, which has been published online. I understand the points that my noble friend made; we will return to them regarding what we intend to include in the patient discharge plan.

I turn to Amendment 59, tabled by my noble friend Lord Davies and supported by the noble Baronesses, Lady Tyler and Lady Neuberger. The plan needs to include details of interventions aimed at minimising financial harm to the patient where this is relevant to their mental health recovery. My noble friend asked for my agreement on this point. I hope that he will take that in this way. We intend to set out in regulations, rather than in primary legislation, what that plan must include. We will consider personal financial matters that are relevant to a number of the elements that we intend to require in regulations, such as the services that a patient might need post discharge. My noble friend’s point, and that of the noble Baronesses, is very well made and is taken on board.

Turning to Amendment 60A, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, I confirm that the Bill sets out who is responsible for the statutory plan. For in-patients, this is the clinician who is responsible overall for the patient’s case. The quality of plans for detained patients is monitored by the CQC. Any housing, accommodation or wider social care needs that are relevant to the patient’s mental health recovery are already captured within the scope of the statutory care and treatment plan. We intend to require in regulations about the content of the plan that a discharge plan is a required element of the overall care and treatment plan—which noble Lords rightly have pressed the need for. Existing statutory guidance on discharge sets out that a discharge plan should cover how a patient’s housing needs will be met when they return to the community. Currently, where a mental health in-patient may benefit from support with housing issues, NHS England guidance sets out that this should be offered, making links with relevant local services as part of early and effective discharge planning.

Where a person is receiving housing benefit or their housing is paid for via universal credit, there are provisions already in place that allow them to be temporarily absent from their property for a limited duration. We know that the vast majority of people entering hospital will return home before the time limit expires, therefore avoiding a negative impact on their living situation.

We intend to use the code of practice to clearly set out expectations on mental health staff around care planning, including consideration of accommodation and housing needs, and also to highlight existing provisions that protect a person’s living arrangements while they are in hospital.

On Amendment 61, tabled by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, we of course recognise the importance of involving parents, guardians and those with parental responsibility in decisions around care and treatment. We have already provided for this in the clause by stating

“any … person who cares for the relevant patient or is interested in the relevant patient’s welfare”.

The clause seeks to include also carers and other family. As I said last week, this is consistent with existing established terminology used in the Mental Capacity Act and the Care Act.

The amendment would also make this a requirement for all patients, not just children and young people. We do not think it is appropriate here to give an automatic right to parents to be involved in an adult patient’s care. However, we have made provisions to ensure that anyone named by an adult patient, including parents, are consulted where the patient wishes them to be.

[Baroness Browning (Con)]

On that last point about adults, I realise this is a more difficult area, but we have debated in this House reports from the charity Mind about adults, and young adults at that, who, when they have been admitted not just to mental health hospitals but to general hospitals and have had difficulty communicating —I go back to autism, but it might not be uniquely autism—hospital staff have said, “They are over 18, so we’re not listening to you, mum”, while standing by the bedside asking why a person is not eating, when there is probably a very good reason why not. We have recorded deaths of young adults because the parents of people over 18 have not been listened to. It is a mantra that I have heard many times, in many situations: “They’re over 18, it’s up to them”, when, in fact, quite clearly, their lives could be saved, or their health improved, if hospital staff had listened to mum or dad at the bedside. That is on the record and we have debated it in the past, so I wonder how the Minister thinks we can resolve it as far as mental health patients are concerned.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The noble Baroness is right to raise that point. This is the difference between legislation and practice, and we have to bridge that gap. We are very alive to the point she makes, but the important point about this amendment is that we are trying to include all those whom the patient wants to be involved, not just restricting it to parents. I take the point she has made and will, of course, ensure that we attend to that. I would say that that is, as I say, more a case of how things are implemented.

On Amendment 62, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, and the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, it is important that the transition of a young person to adult services is planned and managed with the utmost care by the clinical team. This is reflected in existing care standards and guidelines, which set out what should be met, what relevant teams should meet and how to provide specific support where a young person’s care is being transferred to adult services. This should take place six months prior to the patient turning 18 years of age. On reviewing the patient’s statutory care and treatment plan when they reach adulthood, in Clause 20, subsection (5)(d) of new Section 130ZA already sets out that that plan must be reviewed following any change in circumstances or conditions. We think that turning 18 and transitioning from children and young people’s services to adult is a significant change and absolutely requires review of the plan. We will make this explicit in the code of practice.

Finally, I turn to Amendment 64. I thank my noble friend Lady Keeley for sharing the reality of how this manifests itself by sharing with us individual circumstances. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Young, whose work on young carers is well known and respected. We support the intention to ensure that children are properly safeguarded. If a person is known to services, immediate safeguarding needs to form part of the planning by approved mental health professionals on behalf of the local authority and others involved in the Mental Health Act assessment before bringing a person into hospital. If a person is not known to known to services, the professionals should work with the relevant agencies to make sure the necessary steps are taken. The statutory guidance Working Together to Safeguard Children sets out how all practitioners working with children and families need to understand their role in this regard.

[Baroness Keeley (Lab)]

I just want to reflect that the noble Lord, Lord Young, said in his speech that young carers services almost never receive any referrals from adult mental health services, despite the provision that already exists and has done for a number of years in codes of practice. This is a difficult thing—I tried to bring in legislation for that in the other place on a number of occasions. I just thought that was worth pointing out.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend for pointing that out. On the points raised about protections for young carers, the code highlights that children who are caring for parents with severe mental illness are entitled to request a young carer’s needs assessment under the Children Act. It goes on to cover the information that young carers should be offered to help navigate such a challenging time.

Returning to the guidance about which I was speaking, as has been identified, it already outlines the responsibility of multiagency safeguarding partners. Protecting children at risk of abuse and stopping vulnerable children falling through the cracks is very much at the heart of the Children’s Wellbeing and Schools Bill, which was introduced to Parliament last month.

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

I thank the Minister. I want to raise the issue that so many children and adolescents are placed for care out of their area, which makes the subsequent treatment plan hard to manage. Can the Minister at least look at whether the code of conduct needs strengthening on that issue? For example, it could include a recommendation that a local team visits the person in the hospital before they are discharged. Of course, I would like to see more beds closer to home, but we have to face the reality.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I appreciate that point, and I certainly would be happy to have a look at that.

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[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, during the debates on this Bill—and throughout my time in this place—I have learned that there are specific topics about which other noble Lords are passionate. For example, the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, who is not in her place for sad reasons, is passionate about many issues; but, in the context of this Bill, she has long championed issues around the detention of those with autism and learning disabilities, as has my noble friend Lady Browning. My noble friend Lady Berridge is very passionate about children and young people and about tackling racial discrimination, and the noble Lord, Lord Davies, is very passionate about the link between finance and mental health. Many noble Lords are passionate about specific issues. For me, Amendment 138, in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Howe, goes to the heart of an issue in which I very strongly believe, based on my own experiences of racism while growing up in Britain.

Before I go into that, I will touch on the amendments from by the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker. In one of my first work experiences—in Chase Farm Hospital many years ago—I got to know and speak to a young patient from the Traveller community. He told me about the problems that the Traveller community had in getting access to medical care, and how members of the community were always treated with suspicion and not in the same way. So I am very sympathetic to those amendments.

To get back to my own experience, the Britain of recent years, which my children grew up in, is much less racist than the Britain that I grew up in the 1970s and 1980s, when it was common to be called offensive names or to be chased by skinheads, sometimes actually with weapons and knives. But my experience was a lot better than the racism that my father faced when he came here in the 1950s. There are horrendous stories that he told my siblings and me when I was younger. I believe that we can be proud of that progress, as a country and a society.

When I was a Member of the European Parliament, I used to chat to the taxi drivers in Belgium and France. I would tell them that I was from London, and not all of them but many of them would say how lucky I was, since they had a friend or relative in London and they thought that London was incredibly diverse and tolerant compared with where they lived. That was very touching to hear—but I have to admit that that is my experience, and some will have had different experiences. Even my experience does not mean that the battle against racism and racial disparities is over. As many noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Davies, the right reverend Prelate and my noble friend Lady Berridge, have rightly said, we have to be vigilant on this.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, said, one reason for the review and this Bill is because my noble friend Lady May commissioned the Wessely review due to the disproportionate number of black people being issued with community treatment orders or being detained; noble Lords have referred to this. We have known about that issue for a long time. Although politicians in the other place and many noble Lords here have raised the issue many times over many years, we do not really seem to have grasped the issue or to be on top of it. When I ask colleagues and medical experts about the disparity, I get a variety of answers. In the absence of any widely distributed and comprehensive study, the vacuum is filled by anecdotes or assumptions, sometimes racial stereotypes. One of the most common responses I have heard is that it is complex or multifaceted.

I remember when I did not initially get into the local grammar school, despite having the best grades in the class—better than some of the white pupils who got into the school; it also happened the previous year, in the year above me, when one of my friends who was black, an Afro-Caribbean, topped his class and did not get into the local grammar school—and my mother challenged the decision and asked for the reason, she was told “It’s complicated”. Fortunately, she persisted, and I got my place thanks to the help of my local Member of Parliament, who later became the late Lord Graham of Edmonton, may he rest in peace.

So when I hear the response, “It’s complicated”, I hope noble Lords will understand that I am simply not satisfied with that answer. It is just not good enough any more. The purpose of my amendment is to probe the Government to understand what they know and what research they are aware of, so we can understand the reasons for these racial disparities and put in place measures to tackle them. If it is complicated, can the Government or NHS list the various reasons and say what they are going to do about it? As noble Lord after noble Lord has said, we need the data.

The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, who is not in her place, reminded noble Lords that many of the answers from the Minister sound similar to the responses from 20 years ago. That is not a political point. I suspect that the answers given by the Minister, who is well liked and respected, would not be very different from the answers prepared by officials for any Health Minister of any party. Some of the answers are probably very similar to answers that I gave when I was a Minister. That is not to disrespect the diligent civil servants in the department, who work really hard, but we need answers to the following questions.

What studies are the Government, DHSC and NHS aware of? What do we understand from the various studies? What secondary data do we have, and what are the known unknowns? What do we know that we need to know more about? Has there been any attempt from that secondary data to generate the questions for the primary research so that, once and for all, we can understand why a disproportionate number of black people are subject to community treatment orders and to being detained? Do the Government, DHSC or the NHS, if they have the data, know how to use it to reduce those disparities? If so, when will they begin to reduce these disparities?

I was very pleased to hear a reference to some of the pilot schemes. Perhaps the Minister can refer to some of those schemes, and maybe that would be helpful. But I have to say that if the answers that we receive to these questions, either tonight or when the Minster writes to noble Lords between now and Report, are not adequate, I suspect that noble Lords will have to send the Minister back to the department to kick the tyres and get a better answer. It is as simple as that; otherwise, I am afraid that we will return to this issue on Report. If it comes to that, I hope that we will not see a Government urging noble Lords from the governing party to vote against an amendment that would seek to tackle these huge racial disparities in a methodical way and with an evidence-led approach. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I thank noble Lords for the points they have made. I shall start with those from my noble friend Lady Whitaker regarding Amendments 63, 101, 107, 113, 116 and 124 and immediately address the point about the limited available data on Roma communities.

I absolutely acknowledge that the data on Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities is indeed very limited. I emphasise that I say this not as an excuse; it is just what I have discovered. This is largely due to lower numbers, but we are working with NHSE to improve ethnicity reporting for all patients. More broadly, the Office for National Statistics is working with a range of government departments to undertake research into the barriers and enablers for this community in accessing a range of public services, including mental health services. Findings are expected later this year. I know my noble friend has been very active in pursuing this point and I am grateful to her for doing that. I hope that will be a generally helpful response.

I add to all noble Lords that I absolutely agree that information, communication and support should be provided in a culturally appropriate manner. However, we do not believe that the amendments would achieve that aim, nor are they necessary. The duty to take cultural differences into account in how services are delivered is already enshrined in the Equality Act 2010. These existing duties are the legal basis for ensuring that services are culturally appropriate. That said, we absolutely acknowledge that, in practice, many services still fall short, but that is the position that we find ourselves having to tackle. This is where we need to strengthen guidance. The patient and carer race equality framework is already in place to strengthen the application of these principles, and we will strengthen guidance in the code to ensure that duties under the Equality Act are embedded in practice. We therefore believe that these amendments would not have any additional benefit above what is already in place and what is planned.

On Amendment 65, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, we recognise that there are very significant disparities in the use of community treatment orders between different groups. This data is published as part of the annual Mental Health Act statistics. As the noble Baroness said, in 2023-24 it certainly was the case that patients from black and black British ethnic groups were around seven times more likely to be placed under a CTO than those from white groups. I add that patients from all minority ethnic groups are more likely to be subject to the use of a community treatment order than patients who are white. These disparities are explored in the impact assessment.

The noble Lord, Lord Kamall, drew on his personal experience, for which I thank him. I am sorry that he has to bring that personal experience here, but of course it is the case that the battle against racism and racial disparities is far from over—I completely agree. I am sure he will have noted the commitments made by this Government to tackle racism and racial inequalities, particularly in the NHS and social care.

The reality is—many noble Lords have spoken about this—that we are in a position where we have less data on outcomes and patient experience of being subject to community treatment orders. Officials are now working with NHS England and system partners to understand what additional data it would be wise and helpful to collect. We will cover CTOs in the planned independent evaluation of the reforms but, as ever, I have to share, in honesty, that it will take time to gather new data. A review after 12 months would be premature, not least because it would mean it was based on data from before any reforms commenced. I do not feel that that would be helpful. I assure noble Lords that, rather than committing in legislation to a review at a fixed date, we are committed to keeping existing and additional future data under review.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

I think one of the reasons why people are asking for an open and transparent review—and, in some cases, one that reports back to Parliament—is that this is about not only the data but accountability for carrying out actions and implementation. That is the bit that is missing. Everything I have heard from the Minister on this subject so far—maybe she is coming on to say something else—suggests that without accountability, and overview and transparency of that accountability, the guidance is not going to work. Believe me, as somebody who used to work in the service: if you know that the Government were looking at this and that it was going to Parliament, it sends a powerful message for action to be taken in each individual unit. That is what is required, and I do not see that coming from the Minister’s answers. Can she tell me where that accountability streak will be, and how we, in this House and the other House, can put pressure on if the guidance is not being followed, based on the process she has outlined?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I understand the point the noble Lord makes. However, it does not lead me to accept the amendments. I understand the intent and I am sure noble Lords realise how sympathetic I am to it, but I repeat the point I made earlier: if one looks at what the amendment actually does, it will not serve that purpose. I take the point about transparency and accountability, and I hope the noble Lord has heard many times that that is very much the mode of direction. Perhaps it will be of some assistance to say that the PCREF will improve data collection on racial disparities over the coming year, and the CQC has existing duties to monitor and report on inequalities under the Act. We will continue to monitor racial disparities in the use of CTOs. That situation will be ongoing. If it is not doing the job that it is meant to do, we will not be complacent and will seek to act.

We agree there is a need to improve organisational leadership—

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

Just before the Minister talks about that point, I understand her concern about the 12-month time limit, because it would be before the reforms are introduced. However, is she satisfied that there will be a robust baseline before the reforms are introduced so that we know what we are measuring against? Otherwise, in a few years’ time, we could be asking whether the reforms have worked, but we would not know because we did not have the baseline data. That is the starting point.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The noble Baroness is quite right: one has to be able to compare, and that baseline will be in place. You could collect all the data you like, but it has to be meaningful. Her point is well made.

There is a need to improve organisational leadership to improve data collection and change culture across the mental health system. Again, this is exactly what the PCREF is designed to do and something we want to embed further through the revised code of practice.

The creation of a responsible person was an additional recommendation from the pre-legislative scrutiny committee, and it is one we have considered in some detail. However, ultimately, we think that the role is not necessary, because it would duplicate existing roles and duties. There are already duties on providers of mental health services to identify and address inequalities relating to protected characteristics under the Equality Act 2010 and specifically the public sector equality duty. CQC already has a duty under the Mental Health Act to monitor as health services exercise their powers and discharge their duties when patients are detained in hospital or are subject to CTOs or guardianship. It publishes an annual report, Monitoring the Mental Health Act, which includes detailed commentary on inequalities. The PCREF is now part of the NHS standard contract. It has created new contractual obligations on providers to ensure that they have a framework in place to record and address racial inequality in mental health systems and to look at training and other policies to address racial disparities. Ultimately, we do not think that a responsible person is necessary to achieve all the aims, which are understood, set out in the amendment.

Finally, I want to turn to Amendment 138 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, and supported by the noble Earl, Lord Howe. We recognise, as I have said, that there are significant inequalities in the use of detention under the Mental Health Act and of CTOs between different minority-ethnic groups, and in particular the overrepresentation of black men. We monitor those inequalities through routinely published data and are improving this data through the PCREF. The CQC, as I have mentioned, reports on inequalities in its annual report under existing duties, but we agree that we lack robust evidence on what drives those inequalities, and that has been a matter of considerable debate in your Lordships’ House. We need to conduct research into this, and we are exploring with experts, including academic researchers, the best way to tackle it.

I am concerned that two years is not enough time to scope and commission the report, collect and analyse new data, and form meaningful recommendations. Additionally, we hope that through improved decision-making under the reforms we will see a reduction in the number and proportion of black men who are subject to the Act and a reduction in racial disparities more generally. It is a major driver of why we introduced the Mental Health Bill. A report after two years feels premature, because it would be likely to be based in reality on data from before the reforms were commenced.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving way and sorry for interrupting her flow again. The point about having a staging report after two years is to get ahead and upstream of what is happening rather than retrospectively being able to do stuff after it has gone on. Two years in management terms to be able to determine trends of intended or unintended consequences and then put different things in place is really important. I believe that this amendment, with a report back to Parliament, would send a very strong signal and allow the Government, the department and NHS England to pick up trends, even if it was not the total picture, which would determine different policies and practices and potential changes in the code as well as management action. I think that is what lies behind the noble Lord’s amendment.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I am sorry to interrupt at this time. I note that the noble Baroness thinks that 12 months is too short, and many noble Lords can perhaps see the point that two years is too short. Does the department have any idea of what a reasonable timeframe is? There has to be some accountability, as the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, said. We could accept the warm words and the intentions of the Minister here tonight, but what happens if nothing changes? Where is the accountability? Can the Minister think about asking the department whether there is a reasonable timeframe for some meaningful research? I have supervised academic theses over time. You can have the one-year and then you go on to the three-year for PhD, and sometimes that is quite comprehensive data. There might be a meta study that could be done of lots of existing studies. First, what is a reasonable time? The noble Baroness does not have to answer now; it can be in writing. Secondly, if we let this go, how do we make sure there is accountability? How do we come back to this in three years or four years or five years? I look forward to the answer.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I was about to say that I do understand the need for pace, but I know that noble Lords understand the need to get this right and I know they are not suggesting that we should get it wrong. I will certainly be glad to look at the points that have been raised. I assure noble Lords that I do not want this to be warm words and I understand what noble Lords are seeking. I want to ensure that it is right and that the pace is right. I will look at the points raised because—although I do not think anyone is accusing me of this—it is the exact opposite of avoiding accountability and transparency; it is just about dealing about what is in the amendments.

The noble Lord, Lord Kamall, asked me a number of very pertinent questions and to do justice to them I will write to him. In conclusion, I hope that noble Lords—

[The Lord Bishop of Manchester]

Before the noble Baroness sits down, could I tease out from her a few words about the religious literacy point that myself and the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, raised earlier? While we have rightly focused much on race and ethnicity this evening, which is important, I find that sometimes people take a pride in being religiously illiterate and in not paying attention to somebody’s faith in a way that they would probably not take a pride, as a professional, in not attending to somebody’s ethnic background. Does the Minister have a little word to say about that?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I suspect that the right reverend Prelate knows where I would be coming from on this. He and the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, are quite right that consideration of one’s religion and religious practices and not making assumptions about them are absolutely crucial.

[Baroness Whitaker (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend for her understanding of the crucial meaning of the data shortage and for her very helpful account of further work. The problem with relying on Gypsy, Roma and Traveller being covered by equality legislation guidance is that, unless they are specifically named as what they are, lots of people have no idea that they are there, that they are subject to an appalling level of discrimination and that they need a targeted response, directed—as it would be with a faith community or other community—at the reason they are so discriminated against.

But, on the whole, I am glad that the Minister has got the point about so many things and I sense that she has sensed the depth of feeling raised in this very short debate. I will thank very briefly everyone who joined in. The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, quite rightly pointed to the range of cultures that are potentially alienated by not being understood at all, as well as the need for data. I was very grateful for the support of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester, because what he says is based on his real experience. I am very glad that my noble friend Lord Davies went on about the centrality of this issue; it is not a marginal add-on, it is part of our society. Of course, the plea of the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, for more research and proper data is really essential. I enjoyed his note of hope and I hope very much that we will be able to continue it and increase the progress. I had better withdraw my amendment for the time being, but we may need to return to this.

Mental Health Bill [HL]

Baroness Merron Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 22nd January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stevens of Birmingham (CB)]

Very briefly on the question that the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, raised, the notion of supply-induced demand is a well-known phenomenon across health services. However, I have to say to her that I think that we are a long way off that being the problem that is principally confronting children and young people’s mental health services. We have a massive gap between the need for effective therapies for children and young people and their availability.

When the process of trying to expand children and young people’s mental health services kicked off several years ago, the goal was that we would get to a situation where one in three children and young people with a diagnosable mental health condition would get some form of specialist mental health support. That number has now been exceeded. I was just looking at the stats published last week and, although I do not see the most up-to-date number for it, I would be surprised if more than one in two are currently getting specialist mental health support for a diagnosable mental health disorder, not just distress. So, we are a long way off confronting this problem of supply-induced demand, whatever broader cultural or therapeutic labelling questions that she rightly points to may be in the ether. Fundamentally, we are going to need more services to benefit the children and young people who need them, not pretend that this is somehow all vapourware, imaginary or a cultural deformity, unlike our predecessors in the Victorian era.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)]

I thank noble Lords for their contributions on this important set of amendments. I say at the outset that I note the various observations that are outside the Bill, as the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, pointed out, but I have noted them and I am sure we will discuss them on a number of occasions.

First, I turn to Amendments 46 and 47, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, and the noble Earl, Lord Howe. I have heard how many noble Lords are in support not just of those two amendments but all the amendments in the group. I am sure noble Lords will not be surprised to know that I understand where people are coming from and I will be pleased to go through the response to them.

The noble Earl, Lord Howe, spoke about “troubling and sensitive matters” and about being inspired by testimonies that came through the charity Blooming Change—I express my thanks to that organisation for the work it does. Officials in the department have met the group and it made a very helpful contribution. Hearing from those with lived experience is crucial to making sure that this is the best Bill, and I know that many noble Lords have done that, so I thank the noble Earl for bringing that into these amendments.

Amendments 46 and 47 would change the definition of appropriate medical treatment to include treatment which

“seeks to minimise the patient’s distress and promote psychological wellbeing and recovery from any childhood trauma”.

Childhood trauma can of course have a devastating impact on psychological well-being. Effective and compassionate in-patient care must be informed, as I have said, in co-production with people with lived experience and be trauma informed. NHS England’s Culture of Care Standards for Mental Health Inpatient Services certainly underlines this.

The noble Earl, Lord Howe, and other noble Lords raised concerns around in-patient settings and how appropriate they are, which I understand. I hope it will be helpful to say in answer that the new definition of “appropriate medical treatment” introduces the requirement that treatment has to have a reasonable prospect of benefiting the patient. We would expect the setting in which someone is going to be detained to be considered as part of this. Of course, I am more than aware—without wanting to go into the generics in this group or any other group—that the place in which we start, in terms of the suitability and availability of the right settings, is not where I am sure any of us would want to be.

We also know that the sensory environments in settings can cause difficulties for people with sensory sensitivities. To support NHS services to address sensory aspects of the environment, which the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, referred to, NHS England has published a sensory-friendly resource pack, which outlines 10 principles to improve the sensory environment and signposts other resources.

The clause in the Bill that defines “appropriate medical treatment” already requires decision-makers to take into account the nature and degree of the disorder and all other circumstances, which could include childhood trauma, when considering whether medical treatment has a reasonable prospect of therapeutic benefit. The definition of medical treatment is unchanged and is indeed broad, including nursing care, psychological therapy and medication. All these interventions could include an overall aim to minimise distress and promote psychological well-being.

Amendments 50 and 51, tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Tyler and Lady Bennett, aim to ensure that the clinician considers non-drug-based interventions as part of the new “clinical checklist”. The checklist requires clinicians to identify and evaluate alternative forms of medical treatment when deciding whether to give a particular medical treatment to a patient. As I have already mentioned, the definition of medical treatment under the Act is broad. As well as non-drug-based interventions, it includes specialist mental health rehabilitation and care. On the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, which is an important one, it does include the therapeutic environment or setting. This requirement, as outlined, would apply to all patients falling under Part IV of the Act. It includes patients with a learning disability and autistic patients who are detained for assessment under Section 2 and patients detained for treatment under Part III.

With specific regard to those with a learning disability and autistic people, I recognise the concern that they are more likely to be prescribed an antipsychotic than the general population. I emphasise that psychotropic medication should only be given for the right reasons, in the lowest dose, for the shortest time. NHS England has a national programme of work to stop overmedication and the inappropriate prescribing of these medications, which is aimed in particular at people with a learning disability and autistic people. Noble Lords will be aware of the STOMP programme. Alongside it is a national supporting treatment and appropriate medication in paediatrics programme called STAMP—the two are not to be confused. These programmes work particularly closely with those with lived experience, families and carers organisations, and a wide range of health and social care professional bodies.

Amendment 53, in the names of the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, would require the approved clinician to offer a patient any treatment that is appropriate, having applied the new clinical checklist. The reference to medical treatment in that checklist should already be read in accordance with Clause 8, which inserts a new definition of appropriate medical treatment to enact the principle of therapeutic benefit.

The clinician must also support the patient to participate in decision-making to make sure that they do not simply offer their preferred treatment to the patient, with no discussion or consideration of alternatives. The Bill also requires clinicians and, where relevant, the second opinion appointed doctor to provide a written record that the treatment being administered meets the definition of appropriate medical treatment. Therefore, it is felt that the Bill already meets the intention of this amendment. Furthermore, if the intention is to ensure that a range of treatments is being considered by the responsible clinician, I can reassure noble Lords that this is already the case, because, as I have said, the definition of medical treatment is broad.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I would be very pleased to look into it further, but, as I have described, this is a rolling programme. I emphasise that the CQC has that duty both to monitor but also to make the relevant bodies subject to sanctions if needed—in other words, more immediately. So I am concerned that through this amendment we could be creating a structure which is actually less flexible and responsive than the one we have now.

Amendment 148, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, would impose on integrated care boards—ICBs—a legally binding duty to provide local, in-person, specialist withdrawal treatments for patients on psychiatric medication prescribed during the course of their treatment by services under the Mental Health Act. In addition, there would be a duty on each ICB to send to the Secretary of State an annual report on the availability, uptake and outcomes of this support. Under this amendment, the Secretary of State would be obliged to lay these reports before Parliament. ICBs would also be subject to a requirement to provide a 24-hour helpline and online platform to support patients to receive withdrawal treatment.

Let me say at the outset that I recognise the difficulties that withdrawal can pose. I recall that the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, spoke on this very point in the Chamber last month and was also good enough to speak directly to me. It is, I agree, an issue that will not go away and, per the noble Lord’s request, I would be happy to arrange a meeting. I feel there is a whole area here to which we today, considering amendments, cannot do justice, so I would be pleased to do that. To the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, who has tabled Written Questions, I say that I look forward to answering them, and I hope that he will look forward to reading my Answers.

Where relevant, we would expect the patient’s statutory care and treatment plan to include a tapering plan and put in place whatever additional support is needed to enable a patient’s recovery and effective discharge. On the requirement to provide support in the community and report on availability, this is the responsibility of local health commissioners. In 2023, NHSE published a framework for ICBs and primary care boards on how to optimise personalised care for patients prescribed medicines associated with dependence or withdrawal symptoms. With regard to the requirement in the amendment for a 24-hour helpline, this would not seem proportionate, given the relatively low numbers of people who might need this service, who should already have a support plan in place, including access to relevant local support services.

Finally, Amendment 154, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, would allow the Secretary of State to make regulations giving people detained in hospital and those subject to community treatment or guardianship orders the ability to have certain care and treatment matters considered by a mental health tribunal.

This is a very complex area, as I am sure the noble Baroness is aware. The amendment seems to draw on the recommendation made by the independent review to give patients a new right of appeal to a single judge of the mental health tribunal regarding compulsory treatment. I recall that the previous Government publicly consulted on this new right, and the majority of respondents raised major concerns in this regard. The consultation was followed by further long and careful consideration with stakeholders, which led the then Government to the conclusion that this safeguard is just not viable. A solution could not be found that provided an efficient and effective route of appeal for patients while avoiding the risks of the tribunal intervening in clinical decision-making, alongside significant resource burdens. Many of these concerns were reflected in the report of the pre-legislative scrutiny committee, which also acknowledged the complexity of the issue.

We believe that the other provisions in the Bill will better achieve the same objectives of providing patient choice and autonomy, so while we do not support introducing a new role for the tribunal, I assure your Lordships that the emphasis on therapeutic benefit within the detention criteria will mean that whether care and treatment are proving effective will play a role in the tribunal’s consideration of whether or not detention should continue to be upheld. With these explanations, I hope that the noble Earl feels able to withdraw his amendment.

[Earl Howe (Con)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate in such compelling ways, and I think we can see that when it comes to the experiences of children and young people in mental health units, we are dealing with a story that is a lot more substantial than mere anecdote. From briefing I have received, I am afraid I have been left in no doubt that the therapeutic environment in a number of mental health hospitals around the country—not all, of course—is, to put it mildly, a lot less than optimal.

Clearly, it is unacceptable for any patient, of whatever age, to be detained compulsorily without being offered treatment. It is unacceptable that drugs or restraint should be used as punishments. Challenging behaviour can be difficult to deal with, but staff should be trained to deal with it in a way that demonstrates that they understand the root causes of the behaviour. Those causes can be extremely complex.

To pick up another strand of the debate, I am in no doubt that medication has a place in mental health therapy. It can often be the treatment of choice. It is one tool in the toolbox. However, I very much agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, and the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, had to say about social prescribing. It can not only be clinically effective but save costs if it is delivered, for example, by local charities that work in the fields of music, drama or art. Incidentally, it can help budding musicians, actors and artists in their downtime to train as music, art or drama therapists, which is an added bonus.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Howe (Con)]

There are two answers to that. First, it is generally unthinkable for a Government to lay regulations without first having consulted the relevant parties. Secondly, if we are honest, putting something on the face of a Bill is not the whole story; there would need to be proper clinical guidance published alongside that for practical purposes for hospitals and elsewhere.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for examining the important issues that have been raised in this group of amendments.

Amendment 55, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, supported by the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, seeks to change the Mental Capacity Act to allow young people aged 16 or 17 the ability to make a binding advance decision to refuse medical treatment for mental disorder. I shall set out some concerns about the amendment that may be helpful.

First, the amendment would mean that a young person who is not detained under the Mental Health Act could refuse a mental health treatment, even if it was life-sustaining. While the Mental Health Act and the Bill currently provide safeguards that enable a person’s advance decision to be overruled, detention under the Act may not always be appropriate. For example, if a 16 year-old is left very unwell following an attempted suicide, then currently they may be given treatment on the basis of what is in their best interests, under the Mental Capacity Act, if they lack capacity to consent at the time. However, under the amendment, if the 16 year-old had made an advance decision to refuse treatment necessary for their recovery or to sustain their life, then they might need to be detained under the Mental Health Act simply so that their advance decision could be overruled. This is important in terms of timely access to treatment and to avoid loss of life, of course.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The overall concern is as I have identified. Yes, indeed, as always, it is a complex area that we need to unpick, but our main concern has to be for the welfare of the young person. The concern about the amendment is that, inadvertently, it would work in the opposite direction.

To finish on Amendment 55—this might also be helpful to the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett—we are of the view that the Bill strikes the right balance between self-determination and responding to the needs and vulnerabilities of children and young people. For example, in the clinical checklist, many of the new treatment safeguards and provisions around care and treatment planning apply equally regardless of age and aim to ensure that treatment is more patient-led.

Amendment 56, tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and supported by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, is somewhat similar to Amendment 55 in seeking to change the Mental Capacity Act to provide a mechanism by which children and young people can make an advance decision to refuse medical treatment for mental disorder. However, under Amendment 56, the child or young person’s advance decision would have legal weight only if they were detained under the Mental Health Act. As I have already discussed, while we recognise the principled position to extend the rights of adults to children, giving under-18s the right to make an advance decision to refuse treatment would conflict with a long- standing legal principle established by common law in the courts and codified in the Mental Capacity Act and would, therefore, mean that the amendment would not achieve its desired effect. This principle recognises that, in some serious cases, the courts, parents or those with parental responsibility may overrule the refusal of a child or young person, especially in cases where the child’s life is at risk.

I reassure noble Lords that we are nevertheless committed to giving children and young people a voice as far as possible when it comes to decisions about their care and treatment. I refer again to the example of the clinical checklist, which requires consideration of a patient’s wishes and feelings, including those expressed in advance.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

What legal status does the checklist that the Minister keeps referring to actually have?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I will come back to the noble Lord on that, and I thank him for asking the question.

I was about to refer to the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler. I may not be doing so in quite the right place, so I hope she will forgive me, but I do not want to lose this point. She asked what engagement we have had with the Department for Education. Our officials have engaged with DfE officials on the development of the Bill, including on the interaction between the Bill and the Children Act, which I know is of quite a lot of interest to noble Lords. We have also discussed questions around the statutory test with both the DfE and the Ministry of Justice, given that competency tests apply in wider children’s settings than mental health. I hope that is helpful.

Amendment 136, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, would require the Government to hold a review of whether a statutory test of competence should be introduced into the Mental Health Act for under-16s within a year of the Bill being passed. While we recognise that there are competing views about Gillick competency, it is nevertheless the established framework for determining competency for children. To introduce a statutory test for under-16s only under the Mental Health Act is likely to risk undermining Gillick, which remains the accepted competence test for under-16s across all settings, including reproductive health and children’s social care, and the wider legislative framework on matters related to children.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

The trouble with Gillick is that it does not provide, for those who have to make the decision, how to do it.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I appreciate the point that the noble and learned Baroness has made. As I said, I know there are competing views about its application. I reiterate the observation that it is the current established framework, but I hear what she is saying about what she believes are the implications of that.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

The Minister’s own policy document says that this test should be in the code of practice. How does that not also contribute to the undermining of Gillick that the Minister refers to?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

Actually, my feeling about the code of practice is something that I wanted to bring up, because it has come up quite a lot. The code of practice is statutory and aimed at practitioners, and it allows nuance and so on, but Gillick is in case law and it guides us throughout. The point I am trying to make is that if it is changed in respect of this Mental Health Bill then that has implications across the wider question of competency for younger people, and that is of great concern.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

I apologise for interrupting the noble Baroness again, but the fact is—I speak as a former lawyer and judge who applied Gillick—it does not actually give guidance. All it says, as I understand it, is that under-16s have to be listened to. That is great, and I totally agree. What it does not do—but the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Meston, would—is set out the guidance that those who make the decisions need to have.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

Obviously, I am listening closely to the noble and learned Baroness’s experience and feeling on the matter, and I will certainly be pleased to reflect on the points that she and the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, have made.

If I continue, that may be of some assistance—we will see. It is of concern to me that the possible creation of two different tests will potentially cause further confusion and uncertainty on the ground. We are therefore not in a position to welcome a statutory test of competence in the Mental Health Act.

Before I continue to Amendment 147, I will come back to the good question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, about the legal status of clinical checklists. Because they are in the Bill, they are a statutory requirement for clinicians, to be followed in respect of all patients. I hope that will be useful.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

It is useful, but it is therefore contradictory to what the Minister has just said. If the checklist is statutory and it is legally binding that it has to be followed, how would a young person in that checklist having a view about their care be different from an advance directive? That is the issue. The Minister said the other alternative is that a person under 18 or 16 can make a decision in relation to the medical checklist, and she has just said that the decisions are legally binding. Alternatively, is it that carrying out the process is legally statutorily binding but the views of somebody who is 16 on that list are not?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I was referring more to situations, of which I know the noble Lord is aware, where there is a need for intervention. I think I used the word “overruling”, and I used some examples where there was a risk to life. So it is about application in that regard. I will look at that question in greater detail when I reflect on this area of debate and, if there is more that I can add to assist the noble Lord, I will be pleased to do so.

Amendment 147 is in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Meston, supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, and spoken to by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett. It would create a statutory test of competency for children in respect of decisions under the Mental Health Act. Under that test, competence for under-16s would be defined by reference to the functional test of capacity established in the Mental Capacity Act but without the diagnostic test, and by having due regard to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.

The courts have already made clear that the approach of the functional test is not suitable for children. We do not think that the functional test is appropriate or compatible with the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which the amendment itself makes reference to. The amendment, as drafted, is therefore not considered to be in line with established case law.

The noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, asked about the justification for not including a test in the Bill. As I have mentioned, Gillick is established in case law, not statute, and the code explains how the Gillick decision is to be applied. But this does not mean that the House of Lords decision is not mandatory. There is a duty to follow case law. It is not discretionary, as I know noble Lords are aware.

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[Lord Meston (CB)]

My Lords, I do not want to prolong this, but I have to say that, although I am disappointed and a little surprised by the response from the Government, the intention is to align the Mental Capacity Act and Gillick. It is frankly not correct, if I understand the situation, to say that it is not based on case law. I referred to a specific case in which the judge formulated, essentially, the test that appears in my amendment. As I say, I do not want to prolong this but, if necessary, I can refer the Government to that case.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

Perhaps I can just say to the noble Lord that, when I reflect on the discussions on this group, as well as all the others, it may be helpful to discuss this further.

Amendment 55 withdrawn.

Health and Social Care: Winter Update

Baroness Merron Excerpts

Tuesday 21st January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, I want to echo the comments of the Secretary of State in the other place about the appalling treatment of Achamma Cherian, who was stabbed in the Royal Oldham Hospital last Saturday. It is absolutely intolerable for any member of NHS staff to be treated in this way. Can the Minister reassure your Lordships’ House that staff in A&E especially are protected, but also throughout our NHS?

I want also to start by thanking our NHS and social care staff for their remarkable effort. One of the problems that our NHS and social care staff have faced is total exhaustion since the winter of 2019-20. Immediately following the winter pressures, we were faced with a pandemic. Everybody in the NHS is now saying that this winter feels much worse, simply because it is yet another year of winter pressures.

Ambulance services have had to change their advice across the country to warn of being overstretched. A leaked memo from the West Midlands Ambulance Service says that patients who had collapsed with abdominal pain and vomiting, which are category 3 and 4 calls, and even, in the periods of highest demand, with heart attack or stroke, which is category 2, were told, “We don’t have an ambulance available to respond to you and it may be hours before one is available. Is there any way you can arrange safely to get to a hospital emergency department?”

I am minded to tell the House that, when I got a bus the other day that passed University College Hospital at Warren Street, a number of people got off who were clearly extremely unwell and being taken to the hospital by their families. What are the Government planning to do to support patients who need urgent ambulance services that are not available—for reasons that we understand are often to do with backlogs in A&E, queues and so on?

The Statement says that the experience of patients this winter is unacceptable, and we on these Benches agree. It is the opposite of a vicious circle: it is a circle of hell, not just for patients but for staff. I note that the Secretary of State commented in the Statement on what he saw when he was visiting, but worse is to come. We know from the Royal College of Nursing survey published earlier this week that we have patients dying in corridors, with nurses feeling absolutely unable to provide support for them.

It is not just 14 years of underinvestment; frankly, we are now seeing the problems of the wrong reforms that happened some years ago now. That has resulted in particular in pressure on primary care. The Statement focuses on hospitals but does not address the real crises that are going on in primary care.

In addition to the issues of funds and the planned extra doctors, who will take a while to come in, what are the Government planning to do to prevent hospitals constantly referring patients back to primary care when they need just an X-ray or a test, rather than being dealt with by the doctor they are seeing in hospital?

The emphasis of the Statement is obviously on the current high level of infections. It comments on the more than 5,000 patients in hospital beds with flu, but it does not say that we need to add to that RSV, pneumonia and Covid. The problem is that there is no weekly data from the UKHSA, which no longer collects and publishes such data. I hope the Government are prepared to consider reinstating that. An interesting graph on social media about two weeks ago set the peaks and troughs of all these infection spikes over the last three years against the increasingly long absences of NHS staff due to extended sickness, and they mirror exactly. I ask the Minister—who will remember that when she was in opposition, I asked this of many Ministers—what is happening in hospitals to encourage staff, when facing infection spikes, to wear masks and to encourage others to do so? This is about getting the basics right.

The Chancellor has made an investment this year. Compared to past winter investments to cover the winter crisis, how much is going to be there for the long term—or, by the time we get to March, will it all have been sucked up by the current winter crisis?

The Statement says that it is not too late to get yourself vaccinated. I have to tell noble Lords that, if you are a clinically vulnerable patient—and I count myself in that category—it is. GP services keep being given deadlines, which they pass on to patients. Patients then discover that they cannot get the vaccines at their local surgery. If they are inspired to go and find help elsewhere, that is fantastic. However, I suddenly got lots of texts from my surgery saying, “You haven’t been vaccinated yet. Go and get vaccinated”. I had been vaccinated. The problem is that the pharmacy database does not relate to the GP database. When will that be remedied? I have been going on about this problem for well over a decade. It is ridiculous that I have to intervene and say, “Actually I have had it—at your request”.

I have talked before about primary care, and it is shameful that the previous Government did not provide enough vacancies for newly qualified GPs last year. I credit this Government for providing some support and money this year to make sure that is happening. Will this continue to happen in future years or is it one-off, one year’s money? While the extra funding for general practice is welcome, it is not enough without the contractual change between primary care and secondary care. Have the Government taken account of that? It is not solving the real problem, which is that GPs and their staff are facing phenomenal pressure in their systems.

To conclude, most people are saying that this is the worst crisis we have faced in years. Unlike other parties, particularly the former Government, I am not prepared to blame the current Government for that. I credit the Government for the steps they are taking, but will they look at the longer-term issues that need to be dealt with to get our NHS back in a stable condition so that patients can rely on the service, from ambulances through A&E, general practice and hospital service?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)]

My Lords, I pay tribute to staff in health and social care for their commitment all year round, but particularly when the pressures are on us all in the winter. The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, mentioned the nurse who was attacked at Royal Oldham Hospital. Our thoughts and prayers continue to be with her, her family and friends, and we wish her a speedy recovery. I can assure the noble Baroness and your Lordships’ House that protection of staff, and freedom to work and move around without abuse, harassment and discrimination, are all very important to us as a Government. There will be more about that as we talk about the workforce plan.

Let me make a few general points. I thank the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, for their questions and observations, all of which are important. As the Secretary of State said in the other place, it is crucial that we are honest, and I hope by now that your Lordships’ House will realise that we are, as a new Government, not frightened to say what the reality is, which is why the noble Lord, Lord Darzi, was commissioned to look into the state of the NHS. The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, asked about long-term issues and that is exactly where we are.

I acknowledge the significant pressures faced by the NHS this year. However, cold weather, a sharp rise in flu and other infections, and other stresses and strains are not unusual, and we should not be surprised that winter comes every year. It is not acceptable to be going into a crisis every year. We have also taken immediate action. For example, beating the backlog of waiting lists is crucial, as is the 10-year plan because it will create an NHS for all year round. In addition, the emphasis is on getting social care into the right place, both in the immediate and the long term, because—as noble Lords regularly and rightly say—it is inextricably linked with the NHS.

Both Front Bench speakers talked about data and planning and preparation. There was a great deal of planning and preparation for what was then the upcoming winter, which we are now in, across health and social care. In the words of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, we have been doing our best with the hand that we have been dealt. The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, acknowledged that and I am grateful for her acknowledgement and her support. Annual winter pressures will always exist, but they should not automatically lead to an annual winter crisis.

These issues will not be solved overnight. It is going to take time, but we believe it can be done. That is why we are making investments—the noble Baroness asked about investment. The Budget committed an extra £26 billion to health and care—not as a knee-jerk reaction but to allow us to plan now and for the future.

On planning and preparation, I assure your Lordships’ House that the Secretary of State meets senior leaders in social care regularly. He also meets the UK Health Security Agency and NHS England regularly. Those groups are key to Ministers keeping on top of this.

We also have an excellent national operations centre, which I pay tribute to—that goes to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall. The data available from it allows a focus on individual hospitals and individual patient waiting times. As of last week, we were down to one critical incident across the country, which compares positively with the 24 that were in place before.

The noble Lord, Lord Kamall, asked about lessons learned—if I might paraphrase it like that. I assure the noble Lord that before the spring we will set out lessons from this winter and the improvements that we will make ahead of next winter. For me, that is very welcome, because that is about acting as quickly as possible and looking to the future.

The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, spoke about primary care, which is key to taking pressure off. I know that the noble Baroness is well aware of the three key pillars of the 10-year plan, which will be available in the not-too-distant future. I am sure that your Lordships’ House will want to discuss that at length, and I will be pleased to do so. To take the points from both noble Lords, that is all about the move from analogue to digital, from treating sickness to prevention, and from hospital to community. Those are not just words; they will greatly assist with the long-term planning that I know both noble Lords are seeking.

The noble Baroness referred to primary care. We have committed to recruiting over 1,000 newly qualified GPs through an £82 million boost to the additional roles reimbursement scheme. The key thing about that is that it will increase the number of appointments delivered in general practice. If I might make another point to the noble Baroness, we recently made announcements about GPs being able to make a direct referral for tests and scans to stop the real “around the houses” of sending a patient to see a consultant, who then sends them away for the relevant tests and scans before they can see them in the round. That will do a lot to reduce waiting times and increase access.

The noble Baroness was right to raise corridor care. She will have heard the Secretary of State say that

“we will never accept or tolerate patients being treated in corridors. It is unsafe, undignified” ”.—[Official Report, Commons, 15/1/25; col. 364.]

He has also made it clear that he is ashamed of that situation. I say that in a spirit of honesty. That is a feeling I share. The Secretary of State also said that he could not, in all honesty, promise an end to corridor care by next year because, as he rightly observed, it will take time to undo the damage that has got us to this place. It will be through investment, reform and planning that we will be able to do that.

The noble Baroness also asked about winter funding. That is a very important point, because over many years we have seen last-minute winter funding arriving too late to make a difference, no matter the intention. This time, as I mentioned, the Chancellor allocated nearly £26 billion to the NHS for 2025-26 in the Autumn Budget. That means, in comparison with the funding that it would have got under the last Government, that the NHS will receive £2 billion more. For me, perhaps the most important point is the ability to plan ahead and factor in the need to support preparation for winter.

There are a number of other points that I could make and I am sure that noble Lords, as we move to further questions, will raise them. In the meantime, I thank both Front Benches for their interest and their questions, but also for their challenge.

[Lord Laming (CB)]

The Minister will be pleased to know that the House was glad that she referred to social care. Every day in the winter there are thousands of patients who no longer need to be in hospital; it is not good for them to remain in hospital, and it is not good for the NHS that they remain in hospital. In addition to the considerations of the social care commission, which will take some time to go through, will it be possible to have a proper endeavour to address these issues before next winter? As the Minister said, there always seems to be a winter crisis now. Would it be possible to get local government and the charities together, but also—and this is not difficult to do—to respect the role of unpaid carers and to provide support for people who are, in effect, taking over the care of patients who would otherwise remain in hospital?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The noble Lord is right to remind us of the challenge of having people in the right place, rather than in hospital when they do not need to be there. We have already taken action, so I am pleased to be able to reassure him that, while the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, will look at long-term solutions for social care, she will present a report within a year from her commencement, which will add to the actions that we have already taken.

The noble Lord talked about unpaid carers—and I certainly share the respect that he holds for unpaid carers, so I am very pleased that we have given the biggest boost in income to family carers through eligibility for the carer’s allowance. That has meant an additional —on average, of course—£2,300 a year. That is the biggest boost since carer’s allowance was introduced in the 1970s. We are also legislating for a fair pay agreement, for the first time ever, which will help to tackle the number of vacancies, now standing at 131,000. There will be immediate action, because discharge requires being able to be in the right environment, which might be home but it might need an adaptation. Through the disabled facilities grant there will be a further 7,800 adaptations to homes both this year and next year. So we have taken the immediate action—and, yes, there is a lot more to do.

[Baroness Winterton of Doncaster (Lab)]

My Lords, my noble friend the Minister has just reiterated what the Statement said—that one of the key levers for easing winter pressures is NHS reform, particularly moving some hospital services into the community, which could deal with some of the issues raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, including X-rays, scans, tests and so on. Does she agree that this will require close collaboration between NHS trusts, hospital trusts, local authorities, ICBs and, sometimes, the private sector? Will she work with Ministers in other departments, not only to remove any obstacles there might be to this but to actively encourage it to happen at the local level? By the way, there are some good examples in South Yorkshire of this happening, and proposals for it to happen.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My noble friend is quite right to highlight the good examples in South Yorkshire. There are good examples across the country and one of our challenges, as the Secretary of State has said, is taking the best to the rest. This is a very good example of that. I certainly agree with her observations. This requires joined-up working locally and nationally, which is why we work closely with other departments in both the immediate term and the longer term as we seek to reform health and social care.

[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interests as an NHSE board member and a fellow of the Royal College of Nursing. I absolutely acknowledge that the Health Secretary and the team, including the Minister, are trying to resolve many of these problems. However, I echo the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Laming, that we need something much more quickly than the long-term plan. Can serious consideration be given to funding four or six weeks of care as soon as people leave hospital, whether or not there is a legal entitlement to that cost, to get the one in seven people currently lingering in hospital beds out into better facilities so that they can be supported by their families and friends? Also, the criticism of the advertisements for corridor nurses is absolutely incorrect; we need a higher percentage of nurses in A&E and surrounding departments if they have a much higher number of patients than they were originally established for.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for bringing her comments before the House and for acknowledging our efforts, direction and commitment, because this is not easy and, as she knows, will not happen overnight. However, we need to tackle delayed discharge, following the point made by my noble friend Lady Winterton, through the development of local partnership working between the NHS and social care and making sure that the right support is there to return home—if that is the best place for people—or for an intermediate arrangement. This should not be just an issue of hospital or home; sometimes people need facilities along that trajectory, because they have different needs and their conditions do not stay still. That is why it has to be local partnerships.

Every acute hospital has access to a care transfer hub which brings together professionals from the NHS and social care to manage discharges of people with more complex needs who need extra support. We will shortly publish the better care fund policy framework, which will drive greater impact from over £9 billion of public spending on integrated care. Reducing delayed discharge will be a key part of that. I heard the request from the noble Baroness. She will understand that we have to take account of the financial situation we inherited, but we also need innovation, creativity and practicality to find answers to these very long-standing challenges.

[The Lord Bishop of Manchester]

My Lords, the nurse who was attacked and injured at work recently and who has been kindly mentioned several times already today is a member of one of our Oldham congregations. I assure your Lordships’ House that she and her family remain very much in our prayers in Manchester.

Research by the National Churches Trust published last year shows that the ministry of the UK’s church buildings saves the NHS £8.4 billion every year. Church projects help keep many people out of hospital; they support others when discharged. Other faith communities do similar work and many of them do it in partnership with us.

Secondly, the problem in winter—even in the balmy climate of Manchester—is that it gets cold. Part of the work to prevent serious illness lies in keeping people warm and offering them social contexts where some early signs of declining health can be picked up before they become too serious. Many of my churches in Manchester, along with other places of worship all across the nation, take part in the Warm Welcome Campaign which does precisely that. They are open maybe for a morning and offer a free lunch as well as a warm space where people can just socialise and not worry about their heating bills.

Does the Minister agree with me that places of worship make a vital contribution to the nation’s health and save the NHS money? Will she not only join me in thanking them but ensure that those of her ministerial colleagues who are presently considering whether the Listed Places of Worship Grant Scheme should be extended beyond the present financial year are apprised of these facts?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I made a call for creativity, and I compliment the right reverend Prelate on his creativity; I will certainly pass on his comments to my colleagues. I am delighted to agree with him about the importance not just of places of worship but of communities, including faith communities. As the right reverend Prelate said, we can find the finest examples of community provision which support the NHS and social care through churches, synagogues, mosques and other places of worship. I pay tribute to and thank all those that do this. Of course, this is overwhelmingly done by volunteers, and I pay tribute to all of the volunteers in faith communities and beyond.

[Baroness Pitkeathley (Lab)]

My Lords, the Statement mentions 12,000 patients in hospital beds where they do not need to be. The noble Lord, Lord Laming, has rightly drawn attention to the fact that many of those people discharged are dependent on the care provided by their families. In spite of many reports written about the need to plan discharge from hospital—at least one of them written by me 40 years ago—too much discharge still happens at pace and without planning. It is Friday afternoon and suddenly, the consultant needs the bed. Oh, funny that: there is no care available in the local community. Would the Minister agree that all the reports about discharge indicate that you should start planning for discharge the minute the patient is admitted, and that this planning should include those who are going to provide the care, whether that is the voluntary sector or the patient’s own family?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I agree with my noble friend about the need to plan sooner. It gives the opportunity to assess what is, is not, and can be made available. I also very much share my noble friend’s comments about involvement—involvement of the patient themselves but also of their loved ones. I know from the reports that my noble friend has done over the years how she has shone a spotlight on the exclusion of the very people who could assist in the discharge procedure and make it go smoothly. I welcome her comments that the discharge is as important as the admission and the care people get while they are in hospital.

[Lord Bichard (CB)]

I too acknowledge the commitment and effort being made, and also, of course, the commitment on the front line. I am not a health professional—and I feel particularly conscious of that, given some of the people in the Chamber this afternoon—but I have spent too much time in the last 12 months as a client and had much time to reflect upon the fact that the problems with the health service are much the same as the problems in most other public services. First of all, we do not design the service around the client and the patient, and, whatever I am told, that still seems to me to be so obvious. We do not join up the various services: pharmacies, GPs and district nurses, who I have got to know quite well. We do not make effective use of digital or AI, and we do not make good use of the community and voluntary sector and charities. Sometimes, we resent them, or they are resented. Of course, there is the issue of social care.

I think we all know this, and I am hearing the right things coming out of government at the moment, but, actually, these things have been there for 20 years. They have been said about and talked about for 20 years, yet things have not really changed. I really want to be convinced that they are going to change, but I want to be convinced that we are learning from the lessons of past failures and that we are focusing on owning up to those failures, because that is the only way in which we will move on. Can the Minister reassure me that we are looking at why it has taken so long and that we are really determined to take on the barriers?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. These things do not just happen; we are here because of a failure to reform, a failure to invest and a failure to get the right productivity and results that we need. Indeed, there has been a failure over a number of years to do exactly what the noble Lord spoke about. I could not have put it better myself. The noble Lord came up with the most marvellous advert in his comments for the central pillars, to which I referred, of the 10-year plan, which will soon be available, following the biggest ever consultation in the history of the NHS.

The noble Lord talked about community. One of the things that we will be ensuring will happen in the NHS is a movement of focus from hospital into community. The noble Lord talked about digital. We will move from analogue to digital. He also talked about services being around the patient. I have frequently said that we need to get the services around the patient, not the patient around the services. There is also the move from sickness to prevention. All these three pillars will completely transform the National Health Service.

The noble Lord also referred to the third sector, including charities. We could not deliver much of what we deliver without them, and charities often are extremely well-placed to do things that statutory services cannot, so they are part of the equation and I offer all respect to them.

[Baroness Cass (CB)]

My Lords, the investment described in additional GPs is really welcome, as are the other reforms in primary care. However, one of the challenges in previous recruitment drives into primary care has been losing people from the other end and not being able to retain. Therefore, will the Minister tell us about retention strategies and how they will counteract that really troubling trend?

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[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The noble Baroness is quite right. It is not just about recruitment, although it gives me the opportunity to speak also on the previous point made by the noble Lord about the importance and effectiveness of interdisciplinary teams. Again, the workforce we need must be one that can provide for the 10-year plan, and that plan means that some things will take 10 years, while we are already doing other things. We have to make sure we have the right training. On the point about retention, we know what staff are saying to us: their morale is low; they are under pressure and feel exposed, and, in many cases, they feel frightened. I am shocked to find the amount of racism that is experienced. It is not possible to overlook any of these things, so in the coming year, as we give more information on the workforce plan—and I am looking forward to doing so—it will be a workforce for now and the future, not the past.

Mental Health Bill [HL]

Baroness Merron Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 20th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, on the amendment outlining the definition of “serious harm”, two situations were raised with us on the Joint Committee. One was that the change in the criteria is the main tool that will help with racial inequalities; I would be grateful if the Minister could outline how she envisages that will work in practice. The second point was about the period during which such serious harm has to be exhibited. We heard numerous times about people with psychosis, many of whom—I think it was over 70%—do not realise that they are getting ill when they are presenting. How poorly do they have to get? Sometimes the intervention might need to be sooner than in the definition we understood of “serious harm”, which was slightly different from that which the independent review had, which I think was of “significant harm”. If the Minister could address those two points, that would be very helpful.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their contributions to this important debate in which a number of key issues have been raised.

Amendment 23, tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and supported by the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, relates to new Section 125D, regarding registers of people with a learning disability and autistic people who are at risk of detention. The amendment would remove new Section 125D(5), which defines

“specified risk factors for detention”.

I heard the noble Earl, Lord Howe, refer to this as an Aunt Sally amendment—I politely have “a probing amendment” here but I hope that we are in the same area—that is intended to clarify the definition of

“specified risk factors for detention under Part 2 of this Act”.

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[Earl Howe (Con)]

My Lords, I shall be very brief, because other noble Lords have already eloquently articulated the arguments that are almost self-evident about the importance of services for people with autism or a learning disability and, in particular, the importance of training all staff who may find themselves working in those fields. I agree very much with the remarks of my noble friend Lady Browning and the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, and I was particularly interested in the research mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, which brings us into a whole new dimension, I think, in this debate.

The need to train all healthcare staff, no matter what role they perform or which part of the health service they serve in, should surely be taken as read. This should be training both in the initial identification of those with autism or a learning disability and in the skills needed to handle such individuals with the necessary sensitivity and insight. I was interested in what the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, had to say about that. The behaviour of a person who is on the autistic spectrum can be baffling to anyone who has had no experience of it, and because of that it can be open to misinterpretation. A situation of that kind carries dangers, which is why it is so necessary for healthcare staff to know how to react in a way that will make the situation better and not worse.

This is not the first time that we have debated this important topic. I believe we may be told by the Minister that mandatory training in these areas is already provided for in Section 20 of the Health and Social Care Act 2008. The provision reads:

“Regulations under this section must require service providers to ensure that each person working for the purpose of the regulated activities carried on by them receives training on learning disability and autism which is appropriate to the person’s role”.


That broad provision was inserted into the 2008 Act thanks to an amendment which your Lordships approved three years ago, during our debates on the Health and Care Act 2022.

So, a provision on training is already enshrined in law; the problem is that we have no way of knowing the extent to which it is being implemented in practice. Hence, Amendment 145 would require the Secretary of State to publish a review on mandatory training for all persons who treat patients with learning disabilities and autism under the 1983 Act and consult as necessary to determine the extent to which health service staff are actually in receipt of such training. I see this amendment as perhaps a logical partner to Amendment 152 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, and indeed, in his absence, to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Adebowale.

While the vast majority of people who provide care to people with learning disabilities and autism do so with compassion and professionalism, we have seen a number of failings in care for people with those conditions. At the same time, detention will continue to be necessary in some cases where a patient with autism or a learning disability is suffering from a separate mental health condition. In all those cases, regardless of the context in which a person presents, we need to have confidence that the people providing care have the training they need to deliver that care sensitively, and above all, capably. I would venture to say that the people who need to have most confidence in the system apart from the person receiving the care are the parents or nearest relatives of that person. Hence, I believe we need more transparency on how well the system is working than we have currently.

Incidentally, one of the things that could come out of a review of training is an opportunity to look at the current processes for whistleblowing. An important aspect of improving standards of care is to have a system of accountability that includes listening to everyone in the sector, from the most senior staff to the most junior. No one should be afraid to speak up when they see something going on that does not look right, and I should be very grateful to hear what the Minister has to say on this whole theme and on the other important issues that noble Lords have raised.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I express my gratitude to noble Lords, not just for their amendments but for the way in which this debate has been conducted. I appreciate much of what lies behind the contributions and amendments today.

I first turn to Amendment 33, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, and supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, and also Amendment 150 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Adebowale. All of these were spoken to throughout this group, including by the noble Baronesses, Lady Tyler and Lady Murphy. I noticed that Amendment 150 was particularly referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, and the noble Earl, Lord Howe.

On the matter of data collection, I absolutely share my noble friend Lord Beamish’s view on its importance, the need for the visibility of data and the need to find out what is behind detention. However, I can give the reassurance that the data and statistics that were referred to are being collected and published. They will continue to be monitored and published monthly in the assuring transformation statistics for learning disability and autistic people, and I hope that will be helpful to my noble friend.

The amendments I am referring to, which the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, introduced, require the Secretary of State to publish plans within a specified timeframe, outlining the Government’s plan to allocate sufficient resources for the commissioning of services for the detention and treatment of autistic people and people with a learning disability, as well as costed plans which show how integrated care boards and local authorities will ensure provision of adequate community services for these groups.

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[Baroness Barker (LD)]

This is a key point for a lot of the amendments that noble Lords have asked about. Can the Minister write to all noble Lords with more detail of the training programme—its content, the timetable, who is going to be responsible for making sure that it is implemented and reviewed? Will she specifically deal, in that letter, with my question about whether tier 3 training is included?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I would be very pleased to write to noble Lords, as the noble Baroness suggests.

Amendment 42A, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, which the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, also spoke to, relates to appropriate expertise in learning disability and autism for medical practitioners with responsibility for recommending admission for treatment. We strongly agree with the principle of this amendment. The current code of practice sets out that, where a patient is known to belong to a group for which particular expertise is desirable, at least one of the professionals involved in their assessment should have expertise in working with people from that group wherever possible. The code also makes clear that consideration should be given to any disability the person has in order that the assessment has regard to that in the way that it is carried out.

The noble Baroness, Lady Browning, asked further about how the Bill will make sure that professionals have the right skills and expertise. This whole area rightly comes up repeatedly when we debate.

I accept that it is crucial that those with a learning disability and autistic people are dealt with sensitively and professionally. It is crucial that clinicians are able to make distinctions between a learning disability or autism and any co-occurring mental health disorder—that point was made powerfully. It is a matter for clinical judgment to determine whether a person with a learning disability or an autistic person meets the criteria for detention under Part II, Section 3 due to a co-occurring psychiatric disorder. To assist clinicians in decision-making, we will update the code of practice to provide the guidance that will be necessary, and I hope that that will make a major change.

[Baroness Browning (Con)]

I am grateful to the Minister and very encouraged by her response. I want to flag up something else that I raised. Occasionally, at some point of crisis for undiagnosed adults, the question is asked: could this be autism? At that point, we need people who have a very good working knowledge for them to raise that question, because it can make a world of difference if they are right. It is not just about somebody who presents with a diagnosis; it is about those who are undiagnosed. I do not know the quantity, but my gut feeling is that there are quite a lot of adults out there who are still undiagnosed. I do not know how the Minister will accommodate that situation.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The noble Baroness makes a good point. Indeed, not everybody has a diagnosis. I suggest that, when we look at provisions, we should make clear—through the appropriate means and not in primary legislation—how the practice should take account of the point that she made very well. I will be extremely mindful of that.

We believe that the code of practice is the most appropriate place to articulate the type of experience that might be required in this area, through a non-exhaustive list of practical examples, which would avoid the need to define in primary legislation exactly what constitutes sufficient experience. The reason for that is to allow flexibility on the particular needs and circumstances of the individual. As we update the code of practice, we will engage with expert stakeholders to improve practice and to reflect the new Act. The code will be laid before Parliament before its final publication. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, for her comments in this area.

The number of long-term detentions was rightly raised by my noble friend Lord Beamish and the noble Baronesses, Lady Murphy and Lady Browning. The number of people with a learning disability and autistic people in mental health hospitals is indeed unacceptable. Too many people are still being detained who could be supported in their communities with the right provision. Work is under way to address this. For example, NHS England has allocated £124 million of transformation funding for services, which includes funding to reduce reliance on mental health in-patient settings. Noble Lords can be reassured that I will take a particular personal interest in this area.

[Lord Beamish (Lab)]

On that point, I welcome what my noble friend the Minister has announced, but the real problem is about housing, including specialist housing in different areas for individuals leaving secure units. That is not universal throughout this country, as people leaving mental health units are then having to travel long distances. Surely we need local plans, and that money going in locally to provide the housing needed.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My noble friend makes a good point about housing; we discussed it on day 1 in Committee. We are working with our ministerial colleagues who deal with housing on the need for the right kind of housing to be available. The point was well made and is taken.

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[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

I understand that the Minister may wish to write to me on this, but I wonder whether there is a real prioritisation of those experts by experience guiding that research, and what input there might be. If the Minister can write to me, that would be fine.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I would be pleased to write to the noble Baroness.

As I set out in response to other noble Lords, I hope the Committee has heard how much I agree that the adequacy of training is a key issue. We are aware that developments in best practice in caring for people with a learning disability and autistic people need to be reflected throughout. As I set out, the Health and Care Act 2022 requires that staff be given the training appropriate to their role, and we expect that this should be reviewed in line with the up-to-date situation. The CQC assesses staff training as part of its regulatory function. For these reasons, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have taken part in this useful and informative debate, and I thank the Minister for a thorough explanation of what happens. However, there does seem to be a disjoint between what is happening on the ground and what people in an office in Whitehall seem to think is happening. That is why noble Lords have discussed issues to do with data, training, a costed plan, research and development, and the implementation of people who at least have training and an expertise in diagnosis. Something just does not feel right. The Minister has explained what is happening, but without a fully costed plan up front, with targets, accountability and data ongoing, what will happen is what happens now. Things will be diverted and diluted, and we will not be able to hold the plan to account. For that reason, while I thank the Minister for the explanation she has given, I feel that we will return to this issue at a later stage to dig down and get that deliverable framework. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

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[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, given that all those who have spoken to this group of amendments have been brief, I shall try to be brief. Once again, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, for discussing with me in an exchange of emails over the weekend the intent behind the amendments in her name.

The noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, makes a reasonable point about clauses in the Bill that contain the phrase “likelihood of the harm” or “serious harm may be caused”, because it is assumed that such risks are quantifiable and predictable. I was struck by her observation that psychiatrists, psychiatric nurses and academics have warned about the difficulty of being able to predict episodes of violent behaviour in individuals because the base rate for violence, particularly serious violence, in the population is low. One of the things that we keep saying throughout this debate is that we need to see the evidence and the data, and that that should drive decisions that are being made. Given that, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for sharing the statistics, which I will not repeat but which reinforce the point that she wanted to make.

Considering those statistics, I am sympathetic to two specific points that the noble Baroness made. The first is that making statements about individual risk based on such statistics is complex and possibly unsafe, and, as the noble Baroness said, may be unethical. The second is that it may be helpful to use structured risk-assessment systems in routine clinical practice, if used by appropriately trained staff, to predict possible violence at a group level. However, given that many noble Lords have spoken about patient-centred care and the importance of understanding the individual and their sensory profile, surely we should be looking at patients as individuals, where the clinician better understands the individual patient’s mental state, relevant history and response to treatment given his or her life circumstances.

I will be interested in the Minister’s response to the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, urging the Government to replace wording such as “likelihood of the harm” or “serious harm may be caused”. These terms are inexact and somewhat ambiguous and do not appear to be driven by evidence. Perhaps there are more appropriate terms for more holistic and comprehensive assessments.

Amendment 45, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, proposes that the definition of appropriate medical treatment includes the setting in which treatment takes place. This takes us back to a point made on the first day in Committee by the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, and just now by the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, that for those with autism and learning disabilities, being held possibly in noisy, bright, busy settings full of people who may be strange to them, and where they may feel powerless and worry about what will happen next, is likely to affect their mental health and well-being. Therefore, surely it is important that we take account of the points made by the noble Baronesses, Lady Barker and Lady Tyler, particularly in Amendment 45.

On Amendment 48, it is really important that care is led by the level of therapeutic benefit. That should be based on evidence to drive those decisions. Given that, I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I am most grateful for the contributions that have been made and the amendments that have been tabled.

I turn first to Amendments 37A, 37C, 38A, 38B, 42B, 42D, 42E, 42G and 42H, all tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, and spoken to by other noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, regarding the new criteria. Let me say at the outset that the new criteria explicitly require decision-makers to consider the risk of serious harm and the likelihood of those harms occurring in order to justify detention. Clearly, the reason for this is to ensure that any risks to the public and the patient are consistently considered as part of the assessment process, and to protect patients from lengthy detention when these risks are unlikely to occur. I hope that this will be helpful for some of the debate that we have had.

The amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, seek to revise the proposed new risk criteria to remove any mention of risk that “may be caused” or the “likelihood” of the risk transpiring. The purpose appears to be to remove any prospective assessment from the detention decision and instead focus on the risk as it can be established at the time. The noble Baroness, in her introduction, asked about the reasonableness of the words in the provisions, and I understand that this is where the concerns lie. I should also thank the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, for his comments on evidence and data and their importance. In answer to the noble Baroness, I should say that the independent review found that the current criteria for detention are too vague and recommended that the Government should update the detention criteria to be more explicit about how serious the harm has to be and how likely it is to occur to justify detention. The intention of the revised detention criteria in the Bill is not to ask clinicians to make predictions but to clarify that they should consider whether a harm is likely to occur, based on their assessment and knowledge of the person—something that the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, focused on—rather than based on risks which may never occur.

Any consideration of risk arguably preserves the need to look at what might happen rather than what is happening or has happened in more concrete factual terms. We think that it is important that the detention criteria allow clinicians to detain based on the risks that they think are likely to happen, rather than just the risks that have already materialised. This enables them to act early to prevent harm to the patient or others. In line with the intention of the noble Baroness’s amendments, this should be based on personalised individual risk assessments and information about the patient’s history and personal circumstances—again, something that I know noble Lords are exercised by, which is about the individual approach to this.

We did engage again on the changes to the detention criteria last summer, in light of the recommendation on this issue by the pre-legislative scrutiny committee, and to assure ourselves that the detention criteria struck the right balance between allowing clinicians to continue to take early action when they are concerned about a patient’s or others’ safety and the independent review’s concerns that people could be detained on the basis of risks that might never occur.

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[Earl Howe (Con)]

My Lords, there is little for me to do following the persuasive speech of my noble friend Lady May, other than to say how much I support her in putting forward her amendments. I hope that the Minister will approach the proposals my noble friend has made in a receptive and constructive way.

I was struck by the case put forward by my noble friend Lady Buscombe about how technology could assist in the handling of mental health incidents. I hope equally that the Minister will wish to follow up on my noble friend’s suggestions.

The question of whether police officers, and only police officers, should exercise the powers under the Act to remove a person suffering from a mental health crisis to a place of safety is one that, as my noble friend Lady May said, has been simmering in the Home Office and the Department of Health and Social Care for a decade or more. Extending those powers to suitably trained healthcare professionals would be a change that I suggest goes with the grain of this Bill as regards the emphasis that it places on looking after mental health patients in the best possible way. That is not a criticism of the police in any sense. The police do a magnificent job in tackling anything that they are called upon to do, but, as we have heard, the police themselves say that the vast majority of instances in which they are called upon to deal with a mental health incident do not require a policing response.

The issue of risk is important to consider. Statistically, as my noble friend said, most mental health incidents present no risk whatever to the police attending. Admittedly, it is not always possible to tell in advance how risky a particular encounter is likely to be, but I agree with my noble friend that, provided that a paramedic is suitably trained and equipped, they will have the necessary skill set to deal with any risk to their own safety, bearing in mind that if a police presence turns out to be necessary, they can always call for one.

I very much hope that, between now and Report, the Minister will agree to meet my noble friend, if that is what she wishes, to map out a way forward that will lead to a broadening of the Sections 135 and 136 powers.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been an interesting debate, with much agreement across the Committee. I noted the support from both the other Front Benches, from the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, for much of what has been said.

Let me first discuss Amendments 37B, 38C, 42C, 42F and 128B in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady May, along with Amendment 158 in the name of my noble friend Lord Davies of Brixton. I am most grateful to the noble Baroness and my noble friend for bringing this issue before the Committee today. Amendments 37B, 38C, 42C and 42F would add a new category of authorised persons and would provide that police constables and such authorised persons may detain a person under Sections 2, 3 and 5 of the Act.

I share the recognition from the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, of the noble Baroness, Lady May, who I commend for her work to pave the way and dramatically reduce the use of police cells as a place of safety for those who are experiencing a mental health crisis. I listened carefully to the noble Baroness’s words of advice to all government Ministers; all I can say is that I cannot think how much better we could be advised than by a former Home Secretary and Prime Minister.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins, for what I might call her notes of caution in respect of extending provisions, and the noble Lord, Lord Meston, for sharing his first-hand experience to add to the debate today.

We understand the broad intention of these amendments and of Amendment 128B, also in the noble Baroness’s name, to reduce police involvement in mental health cases for all the reasons that were said, including the extra distress that an officer may—inadvertently, of course—bring to a very delicate crisis situation.

The noble Baroness, Lady May, asked how the Bill will ensure that pressure is not placed unduly on police resource. I understand that that is very much a driving consideration, so let me say a few things on that matter. We recognise the pressure on the police, who are responding to a very large volume of mental health-related incidents, although—this is not to dismiss the point—detentions under Section 136 have decreased this year by 10%, and we are removing police cells as a place of safety to reduce some of this burden. We recognise, in particular, that police time in health settings should be reduced. I give an assurance that we have committed to look at this issue and to update the code of practice to clarify the handover process between police and health, including in A&E, which the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, spoke about. We recognise the confusion around the application of the legal framework that can tie up police time when it would be lawful for them to leave a patient with health staff.

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[Baroness Barker (LD)]

I thank the Minister for her characteristically full and attentive response. I understand why she is not too enamoured by my amendment, and I do not intend to push that much further. However, having listened to her response to the noble Baroness, Lady May, I cannot help but arrive at the conclusion that, while we are quite content, because we all agree, to see police officers being taken away, we are not going to change anybody else’s roles or responsibilities to plug what will be an inevitable gap. I return to something I have said today and previously: this will be the only mental health legislation for 20 years. If we let this go through, in the certain knowledge that we are creating a big gap which will not be filled by existing roles or the deployment of people within the NHS, we are being quite negligent. We are consigning a lot of people to finding themselves without appropriate support at moments of distress, and that goes for staff who happen to be around at the same time.

The noble Baroness, Lady May, is a fan of Geoffrey Boycott. I hope that she goes in to bat again and does not give up. There is an enormous gap here and we have just made it worse.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I appreciate the contribution of the noble Baroness. None of us, including the Government, wishes to create a gap, either intentionally or unintentionally. I should have said in my remarks that the noble Earl, Lord Howe, asked whether I would meet the noble Baroness, Lady May, should she so wish. The answer is yes. I was glad to do so previously with the Secretary of State; it was extremely helpful.

I assure the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, that there is no intention to create a gap, and we would be happy to elaborate further. She is absolutely right to say that we should be cautious and that it would not be good legislation to do that. The challenge is whether the amendments before us are the answer. I hope that this is a helpful comment.

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[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

I too want to add, equally with great care, to this very interesting discussion. I am concerned about the police. I have not quite understood from the Minister her thoughts on a point that has been made twice now by the noble Lord, Lord Meston about everybody waiting for the police. Are the Government thinking of making it unnecessary for the police regularly to attend?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I thank noble Lords for their interventions. To the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss—how can I put this?—I say that the police should be there only when they are needed because they are the police. It is true—the point was made very well in the course of the debate introduced by the noble Baroness, Lady May—that it often goes beyond that. That is why “right care, right person” is something that colleagues are working on with police forces, as well as looking at the whole connection with health services. It is well understood.

I heard the comments of my noble friend, as well as those of the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins, following on from the noble Lord, Lord Scriven. When the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, was speaking, the words that came into my head were “chicken and egg”, about legislation and skills. We looked at skills, but—these are not quite the right words—not at the expense of addressing the question of whether the law is in the right place. They are connected, but I refer the noble Lord to the points made earlier, by me and the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins, about the response we have had from health and care professionals. It is about finding the right way. I take the point that there is a gap now. We do not want to make it worse, and we know that it is not acceptable.

[Baroness May of Maidenhead (Con)]

My Lords, may I say how grateful I am to all those across the House who have supported my amendments. When the Minister first stood up and started to respond, I got quite excited and hopeful. I thought the points had landed, but then, as she carried on speaking, my hopes were dashed as I realised that, in a very elegant way, she was actually rejecting all the points that I had made in my amendments.

The Minister emphasised the code of practice and dealing with the issue of the handover between police and medical professionals. The whole point of my amendments was to ensure fewer handovers between the police and medical professionals, because there would be fewer times when the police were called as the first responders to a mental health incident. The Minister kindly said she would meet with me, and I hope she might be willing for the noble Lord, Lord Davies, also to be part of that discussion.

The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, referenced my admiration for Sir Geoffrey Boycott. One thing about Sir Geoffrey Boycott was that his centuries tended to come quite slowly. Maybe the response and government reaction to this will be a little slower than I had anticipated; but, on the basis that I anticipate that that reaction may come and the century may be scored, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

First-cousin Marriage

Baroness Merron Excerpts

Monday 20th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Farmer]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have to address the health and social impacts of first-cousin marriage, including those relating to women’s rights.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)]

My Lords, NHS England continues to drive improvements in care and access to genetic services for all communities, including through research into the health risks of closely related couples—second cousins or closer—having children. In 2024-25, there was an investment of £1 million in the Genetic Risk Equity project, which supports equity of access to genetic services for the small proportion of closely related couples who have a higher risk of having children with certain genetic conditions.

[Lord Farmer (Con)]

I thank the Minister for that Answer. Pakistani-heritage journalist Matthew Syed has highlighted the risk-multiplying effect of genetic disorders when cousins intergenerationally marry cousins, as happens in remote Shetland, Orkney, and in the British Pakistani community. Pakistanis account for 3.4% of births nationwide but 30% of recessive gene disorders. The NHS employs staff specifically to deal with consanguinity-related diseases. Given this considerable disease burden, and the NHS cost, will this Government mount a health information campaign warning of this significant extra risk?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I understand the point that the noble Lord is making, but this is a very complex topic in respect of which there is a great lack of reliable data. Any plans for any health information campaign anywhere clearly need to be considered carefully. Perhaps I can reassure the noble Lord that staff from the Genomic Medicine Service are already working with other national projects, such as Born in Bradford and Best Start for Life in Birmingham, to engage with the communities most affected by first-cousin marriage. Of course, any campaign plans for Shetland and Orkney will be a matter for the Scottish Government.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for referring to the Born in Bradford study because 18 months ago, it reported that over the last decade, the number of intra-cousin marriages in the Pakistani community had substantially fallen. The reasons for this were awareness of the risk of congenital abnormalities, young people staying in education longer, and changing family values. This is clearly a successful project. Is it being replicated elsewhere in the UK?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The noble Baroness is right that consanguineous unions are decreasing. While it had the best data, the NIHR-funded study, Born in Bradford, to which the noble Baroness and I have referred, found that between 2000 and 2010, 39% of British Pakistani couples in Bradford were first cousins. However, that reduced by 27% by 2019, for the reasons suggested. Driving change across whole ranges of areas makes a difference, but it is important that we keep this in perspective and make any communications and support absolutely appropriate.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

My Lords, surely, this Question is an example of the great value of our genetic science in Britain, and the excellence of the National Health Service in this area. In the Midlands, as the noble Baroness has mentioned, these diseases are common, but the progress we have made in their diagnosis and treatment—and, to some extent, prevention—has been quite remarkable and will continue. I have to add that many of the diseases are extremely rare in such families, and therefore what you could do about cousins in every case would be impossible, but the information being given is exemplary in most cases.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for those very informed observations, and I share the assessment that he has made.

[Baroness Uddin (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I welcome the reduction in the number of interrelated family marriages, not only in Bradford; the numbers have also drastically reduced in the Bangladeshi community. I understand that countries such as Saudi Arabia have a significant number of first-cousin marriages. In pursuing the suggestions of the noble Lord, Lord Farmer, about a further awareness campaign, can we also learn something from Pakistan, Bangladesh and Saudi Arabia, or anywhere else where this practice exists? Can the Minister confirm whether she has undertaken any discussions internationally?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I certainly have not, and I am not aware of discussions that have taken place between Ministers or officials in our department and those in other countries. However, I will be very glad to look into that and to write to the noble Baroness.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Farmer for the Question, and the Minister for the sensitive way in which she is handling it. When we want to look at policy in sensitive areas, surely, we should be led by the data, so I just wonder what the Government’s latest data is. We know that about a decade ago, 6% of congenital defects or anomalies were in children born to first cousins in Pakistani communities, compared to 3% for the wider population. I have seen more recent statistics that say the figures are now 4% and 2%. So, what is the latest data the Government are working with, and what level would those congenital defects have to reach before they were seriously concerned?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for his support in this area, which is indeed sensitive. The statistics he quotes are quite right. It is of course an interesting reflection that the risk of genetic abnormalities does not just double from 3% to 6% in those infants whose parents are first cousins, but also doubles in older white British mothers—I am a bit worried about saying “older” because it is actually over 34. However, the point is well made that it is not just this group. NHS England has recently published guidance to improve the recording of national data on closely related couples, so I hope that noble Lords will find this of interest as we go along. But of course, there has also been much investment in research as well as data development, and I absolutely agree that data is what has to drive us.

[Lord Patel (CB)]

My Lords, we know that there are over 6,000 genetically related rare diseases and that, apart from first-cousin marriages, there are other high-risk areas. One, which the Minister just mentioned, is the age of the mother, but this also applies to the age of the father, to people who undergo certain medical technology treatments for fertility reasons, and to mothers who smoke at a higher rate. So, there are lots of other influences that may give rise to genetic-related issues at birth. But the important question is: are there any areas where we can definitively say, “If you do X, Y and Z, or if you do not do X, Y and Z, the incidence of genetic diseases will be reduced”?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right that there is a whole range of factors in this area, and I am grateful to him for bringing that before your Lordships’ House. He will of course be aware of the main pillars in the 10-year plan: for example, moving from sickness to prevention, which is key. The noble Lord also mentioned tackling smoking, which we will continue to drive forward. But I wanted to use the Question to highlight that the NIHR is undertaking research projects into improving early recognition, diagnosis and treatment of specific genetic and congenital diseases, particularly in communities with high rates of marriage between close relations. So, to the specific point, I again hope that that will be helpful.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

Will my noble friend have discussions with the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office about the data for and experience in some of our overseas territories, particularly Tristan da Cunha and St Helena?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

Yes; that will be extremely helpful in this regard, and I thank my noble friend.