Human Medicines (Amendments Relating to Hub and Spoke Dispensing etc.) Regulations 2025

Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Excerpts

Tuesday 17th June 2025 Grand Committee

[Viscount Stansgate (Lab)]

My Lords, I broadly support these regulations. I hope that my noble friend the Minister will not mind my intervening briefly to ask a couple of questions; I have no wish to detain the Committee.

Obviously, I understand that community pharmacies have been playing an increasingly expanded clinical role in treating minor illnesses and improving medicines’ safety and optimisation. To improve the efficiency of dispensing, these regulations will help support community pharmacies in taking on a more clinical role. The purpose of these regulations, which is to free up smaller pharmacies and enable them to undertake hub-and-spoke models, is, I am sure, a good one. First, does my noble friend the Minister have any idea of how welcome this will be to smaller pharmacies? Is it expected that a great deal of them will undertake these new arrangements outwith the previous restriction on being in the same legal entity?

Secondly, having recently been to my local pharmacy and having talked to the pharmacists there, I was struck by the strain that they are under, both in terms of their workload and financially. Am I right in thinking that this hub-and-spoke model, which will be made more widely available, will in some way help smaller pharmacies deal financially with the situations that they face? Am I wrong in thinking that there is a financial dimension to this? If there is, I would be very grateful for any reply that the Minister can give, but, in summary, these regulations are a step in the right direction.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for the comprehensive way in which she introduced this instrument, including how it corresponds with all the documentation that we have. I am glad to see that it applies to Wales; we have many small pharmacies with cross-border flow and many roads going across the border, so this SI will make things much easier.

Like the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, I have some questions. I hope that at least some of them will be answered; some of them may need time. One of my concerns is about how the finances of this will work, because pharmacies depend on a dispensing fee. Who will get the fee? Will that be down to local negotiation? Will the fee be split?

However, the principle of freeing up time for the pharmacist to undertake more clinical duties is to be welcomed. They are often the first point of call for patients now. They often know the patient. They spot the person who looks less well and can advise them appropriately. They can also advise on drug side-effects, if a person goes into the pharmacist and asks about new symptoms that they might have.

However, I wondered where the liability sits if there is an error. If I understood right, it would sit with the hub if it were in what is dispensed, but there may be a difference in liability for information given to the patient. One hopes this will never happen, but some of those governance issues need to be thought through in detail.

I note that the pharmacists are already taking impressive extended roles in some areas. For example, there is a scheme in Bristol where pharmacists are taking blood for PSA assessment and reaching a population who would not otherwise present for screening for cancers. If we have pharmacists doing more health screening that would certainly free up GP time. Again, pharmacists will need to be remunerated for that.

I was interested to see that the international evidence is a little variable. Germany, Finland, Belgium and Denmark already using a hub-and-spoke dispensing model but the evidence is not overwhelmingly conclusive. In hospitals, where you have a single large building and a large number of prescriptions, automated pharmacy has in many ways revolutionised the administration of medicines.

One of the concerns is the time lag from a dispensed medicine going from the hub out to the spoke. I hope that will be thought through, so that we do not have patients, perhaps with mobility difficulties, having difficulty getting back to collect their prescription, and that those things will be factored into such arrangements.

Another area that I have a slight concern about relates, not surprisingly, to my own area, palliative care. We know that the availability of controlled drugs is poor at times, yet they are often needed urgently. I hope that consideration has been given as to how the dispensing of controlled drugs in particular can be rapid and efficient, especially when the clinical situation has changed and new medications are required at speed for a patient to be able to remain at home, rather than ending up taking an unnecessary or inappropriate voyage to hospital, with possible admission. Those travel systems also come into it.

The last area that I hope this model will tackle is waste, because there are a lot of things that patients are prescribed but never end up taking. Those of us who have been in a house after someone has died will often have been given several supermarket bags—I will not name the supermarket—full of packs of medicines that have been dispensed. They can be extremely expensive but have not been taken. They cannot be taken back in at the moment and cannot be recycled. The schemes that recycled some of the opioids, such as diamorphine, have not continued over the years. This is an enormous financial waste to the NHS, because some of these medicines have been very expensive.

I hope that this model will free up pharmacists and incentivise them to dissuade patients from accepting prescriptions when they are not actually taking those medicines. I could spend hours relating numerous stories of patients who were either not taking their medicines or giving them to somebody else. I have even once been presented with some children trying to sell me grandmother’s pain relief at the foot of the stairs, which helped me understand why I could not get grandmother’s pain under control. There is a real problem of waste in the system. If this instrument will decrease waste without jeopardising pharmacist’ income from prescribing fees, that would be very welcome.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for outlining the purpose behind and need for these regulations.

On these Liberal Democrat Benches, we are of course open to innovation and efficiency in our healthcare system. We recognise the potential for modernising practices to streamline operations, to reduce burdens and, ultimately, to try to improve the delivery of medicines to patients. However, for something as sensitive and fundamental as dispensing medicines, the devil, as always, lies in the detail—as the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, and the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, pointed out—so we must scrutinise these proposed changes with the utmost care.

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[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The whole point of the regulations, as well as cutting red tape, is about levelling the playing field. I understand the point the noble Lord is making, and I re-emphasise that arrangements between hubs and spokes are for them to make, rather than us to set. I am happy to look at the point the noble Lord makes and to write to him further with more detail.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

I will pick up on this because it is a concern. In her summing-up speech, the Minister spoke about the business interests of the hub and the spoke. A concern is whether you could have a hub, which will be a large, possibly even multi- national, provider that could create a monopoly. As has been recognised during this debate, in rural areas, in particular, dispensing doctors are often a small group. Pharmacy services have a relatively low turnover but are important to such communities that are a long way from other places and where the services provided by the pharmacist are particularly important. Yet, as a small spoke, they may not have the power to negotiate with a strong central hub that may well be driven by shareholders and profit. There is a little bit of me that would really like this to somehow be a not-for-profit arrangement over the whole of it, but I realise that that is not feasible.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

Perhaps it might be helpful to noble Lords if I refer to the Competition and Markets Authority in this regard because it noted that the proposed amendments that we are speaking of today are broadly competitive. It also acknowledged that there could be potential long-term competition risks if the market develops in such a way that pharmacy access to medicines, for example, is through an increasingly limited number of hub suppliers.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, suggested could happen, we might have only a few larger hubs emerging. I understand the concern that that could affect the availability of medicines for patients and their pricing. However, because of the recommendations from the Competition and Markets Authority, the department has committed to review the impact on competition once the hub market is sufficiently established. We will then assess whether action is needed to alleviate any barriers to the development of what, I believe, we all want to see: a dynamic, competitive hub market.