Human Medicines (Amendments Relating to Hub and Spoke Dispensing etc.) Regulations 2025

Lord Scriven Excerpts

Tuesday 17th June 2025 Grand Committee

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for the comprehensive way in which she introduced this instrument, including how it corresponds with all the documentation that we have. I am glad to see that it applies to Wales; we have many small pharmacies with cross-border flow and many roads going across the border, so this SI will make things much easier.

Like the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, I have some questions. I hope that at least some of them will be answered; some of them may need time. One of my concerns is about how the finances of this will work, because pharmacies depend on a dispensing fee. Who will get the fee? Will that be down to local negotiation? Will the fee be split?

However, the principle of freeing up time for the pharmacist to undertake more clinical duties is to be welcomed. They are often the first point of call for patients now. They often know the patient. They spot the person who looks less well and can advise them appropriately. They can also advise on drug side-effects, if a person goes into the pharmacist and asks about new symptoms that they might have.

However, I wondered where the liability sits if there is an error. If I understood right, it would sit with the hub if it were in what is dispensed, but there may be a difference in liability for information given to the patient. One hopes this will never happen, but some of those governance issues need to be thought through in detail.

I note that the pharmacists are already taking impressive extended roles in some areas. For example, there is a scheme in Bristol where pharmacists are taking blood for PSA assessment and reaching a population who would not otherwise present for screening for cancers. If we have pharmacists doing more health screening that would certainly free up GP time. Again, pharmacists will need to be remunerated for that.

I was interested to see that the international evidence is a little variable. Germany, Finland, Belgium and Denmark already using a hub-and-spoke dispensing model but the evidence is not overwhelmingly conclusive. In hospitals, where you have a single large building and a large number of prescriptions, automated pharmacy has in many ways revolutionised the administration of medicines.

One of the concerns is the time lag from a dispensed medicine going from the hub out to the spoke. I hope that will be thought through, so that we do not have patients, perhaps with mobility difficulties, having difficulty getting back to collect their prescription, and that those things will be factored into such arrangements.

Another area that I have a slight concern about relates, not surprisingly, to my own area, palliative care. We know that the availability of controlled drugs is poor at times, yet they are often needed urgently. I hope that consideration has been given as to how the dispensing of controlled drugs in particular can be rapid and efficient, especially when the clinical situation has changed and new medications are required at speed for a patient to be able to remain at home, rather than ending up taking an unnecessary or inappropriate voyage to hospital, with possible admission. Those travel systems also come into it.

The last area that I hope this model will tackle is waste, because there are a lot of things that patients are prescribed but never end up taking. Those of us who have been in a house after someone has died will often have been given several supermarket bags—I will not name the supermarket—full of packs of medicines that have been dispensed. They can be extremely expensive but have not been taken. They cannot be taken back in at the moment and cannot be recycled. The schemes that recycled some of the opioids, such as diamorphine, have not continued over the years. This is an enormous financial waste to the NHS, because some of these medicines have been very expensive.

I hope that this model will free up pharmacists and incentivise them to dissuade patients from accepting prescriptions when they are not actually taking those medicines. I could spend hours relating numerous stories of patients who were either not taking their medicines or giving them to somebody else. I have even once been presented with some children trying to sell me grandmother’s pain relief at the foot of the stairs, which helped me understand why I could not get grandmother’s pain under control. There is a real problem of waste in the system. If this instrument will decrease waste without jeopardising pharmacist’ income from prescribing fees, that would be very welcome.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for outlining the purpose behind and need for these regulations.

On these Liberal Democrat Benches, we are of course open to innovation and efficiency in our healthcare system. We recognise the potential for modernising practices to streamline operations, to reduce burdens and, ultimately, to try to improve the delivery of medicines to patients. However, for something as sensitive and fundamental as dispensing medicines, the devil, as always, lies in the detail—as the noble Viscount, Lord Stansgate, and the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, pointed out—so we must scrutinise these proposed changes with the utmost care.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

It would be fair to say that the review will be on how well this is working rather than an attempt to move to model 2. In all the modelling, we believe this is the best way to go. Patient safety is paramount, as it always should be, as is the expansion of services to individuals, but we will keep the whole matter under review.

There were two other questions. The noble Lord, Lord Scriven, asked about the fee structure. The spoke will still receive the fee for dispensing and the paying hub for the services it provides. We are not planning to dictate how the fee structure will work between hubs and spokes, as I said in an earlier answer.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

This is an important point. This could create market distortion. If there was a hub with a number of community pharmacies as part of its parent group, is the noble Baroness saying that it could give an advantage to those pharmacies against an independent pharmacy that was not part of the hub group and therefore could charge that pharmacy a higher fee for providing exactly the same service? That could create market distortion. It is important that we understand that that could not happen within these regulations. If the Minister cannot give that answer, I ask her and her officials to go away, think about this carefully and write back. It is an important point.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The whole point of the regulations, as well as cutting red tape, is about levelling the playing field. I understand the point the noble Lord is making, and I re-emphasise that arrangements between hubs and spokes are for them to make, rather than us to set. I am happy to look at the point the noble Lord makes and to write to him further with more detail.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

Perhaps it might be helpful to noble Lords if I refer to the Competition and Markets Authority in this regard because it noted that the proposed amendments that we are speaking of today are broadly competitive. It also acknowledged that there could be potential long-term competition risks if the market develops in such a way that pharmacy access to medicines, for example, is through an increasingly limited number of hub suppliers.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, suggested could happen, we might have only a few larger hubs emerging. I understand the concern that that could affect the availability of medicines for patients and their pricing. However, because of the recommendations from the Competition and Markets Authority, the department has committed to review the impact on competition once the hub market is sufficiently established. We will then assess whether action is needed to alleviate any barriers to the development of what, I believe, we all want to see: a dynamic, competitive hub market.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

I am sorry to pursue this, but, in the impact assessment, the Government do not state how many hubs will be created. How can they reassure communities that these regulations will not distort the market? It is a very important issue for community pharmacies, which are dispersed. There is now a genuine concern that the Government do not even know how many hubs will be created—that links to the exact point that the Minister just made on the number of hubs.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

It is not possible to predict—although I do not think the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, is asking me to do so—how many pharmacies will take up this arrangement, because it is an enabling piece of legislation, not a requirement. It is also a matter between those businesses. To remind noble Lords, we already have provision in place for suitable pharmacy provision across the country, whether it is rural or urban, and that sits outside the regulations we are talking about today.

The noble Lord, Lord Scriven, asked about the regulation of hubs, and I can assure him that they will be registered pharmacies regulated by the General Pharmaceutical Council in Great Britain or the PSNI in Northern Ireland. The General Pharmaceutical Council has great experience in inspecting hubs and has substantial intelligence on what practical arrangements have been adopted by hub-and-spoke operators that work well. The pharmaceutical council will also ensure that all standards for registered pharmacies are met and—to the point raised by a number of noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Kamall—that patient safety is protected.

To conclude, I emphasise that hub-and-spoke arrangements are not new, as large companies already operate their own hubs. This is probably a discussion for another day, but some people might suggest that that was an example of some market influence, if I can tactfully put it like that. In the meantime, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions, consideration and questions, and I beg to move.