Tobacco and Vapes Bill

Baroness Merron Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 23rd April 2025 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Merron]

That the Bill be now read a second time.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)]

My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time, and it is an honour to do so.

The evidence, despite perhaps some lingering myths and misperceptions, remains stark and compelling: smoking remains unequivocally the number one preventable cause of death, disability and ill health in our nation. Progress has been made, but this is not a problem of the past. Smoking continues to cast a long shadow over our society, remaining a significant public health challenge with persistent rates of prevalence. Every year we witness the loss of approximately 80,000 lives in the UK directly attributed to smoking.

The impact of smoking reverberates throughout lifetimes, increasing the risk of a whole range of conditions from stillbirth through to significantly higher rates of dementia, stroke, heart attacks, lung diseases and many cancers. Smoking also results in a significant loss of productivity in the wider economy and places a considerable burden on our healthcare system. In total it is estimated to cost society approximately £21.3 billion annually.

To correct this course, this Bill will create a smoke-free generation, making it an offence to sell tobacco products to anyone born on or after 1 January 2009, meaning those who turn 16 this year, and younger, will never legally be sold tobacco in the UK. This will gradually end the sale of tobacco products across the country, protecting future generations from the well-documented and evidenced harms of smoking.

In turning our attention to vaping, we face a nuanced challenge. Vapes are less harmful than smoking and absolutely have a strong role to play as a cessation aid for adult smokers seeking to quit. In fact, clients of stop smoking services who have used a vape to quit have had the highest success rate of any group. Nevertheless, a concerning increase in youth uptake should not be ignored. In 2023, one in four children aged 11 to 15 tried vaping, often drawn in through appealing sweet-like flavours and colourful packaging.

In response to this challenge, the Bill includes measures which address the rise in youth vaping and other nicotine products. We will ban advertising and sponsorship, and implement regulations concerning the flavours, descriptions, ingredients, packaging and point-of-sale displays of these products. The intention here is clear. We will ensure that the marketing of vapes can no longer target minors. However, it is imperative that the Bill strikes a necessary balance, ensuring that vapes remain an accessible option for adult smokers looking to transition away from dependence on tobacco, while clamping down on youth vaping.

The public understand the importance of this Bill and what it aims to achieve. Some 69% support a smoke-free generation policy, while 82% of adults support banning names of sweets, cartoons and bright colours on vape packaging, and 81% support banning the advertising and promotion of vapes at the point of sale.

This Bill is the product of the combined effort of Members of both Houses and many outside Parliament over the course of many years. A key manifesto commitment of this Government is to create a smoke-free generation, and this Bill has rightly received support from across the political parties. I express my thanks to many—over, as I said, many years—but I particularly thank the former Prime Minister, the right honourable Rishi Sunak MP, who committed to the original form of this Bill. I also thank my ministerial colleague, Ashley Dalton MP, and the members of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Smoking and Health. Many others have also informed and motivated the action by this Government.

As we turn our attention to the substance of the Bill, I want to highlight its core aims. At its heart, the Bill is about safeguarding the health of our population. Its fundamental principle is to address the cycle of addiction and societal disadvantage. It is a key component of our broader health mission: a commitment to shift from treatment to prevention. Under our Plan for Change, the Government are committed to ensuring a sustainable health system that moves healthcare from hospital to the community, from analogue to digital and from sickness to prevention.

The Bill incorporates a UK-wide approach, reflecting the need for change across our four nations. Health is a devolved matter, so the Bill has been developed in close partnership and collaboration with the Scottish Government, the Welsh Government and the Northern Ireland Executive. This ensures not only greater consistency across the nations but a more enforceable regime across the UK.

In addition to creating a smoke-free generation, the Bill will amend the existing powers to designate certain outdoor settings as smoke free. This will offer greater protections to those at risk from the harms of second-hand smoke. Any such extension will be carefully considered and subject to consultation. In England, the Government will consult on banning smoking outside locations frequented by children and vulnerable people, such as schools, hospitals and playgrounds, but not outdoor hospitality or wider open spaces. Private outdoor spaces are out of scope of the powers in the Bill.

In addition, the Bill provides regulation-making powers to address the entire life cycle of tobacco, vaping and nicotine products, enabling the Government to set appropriate product standards to protect consumers. The introduction of a pre-market registration scheme will provide comprehensive oversight of manufacturers and the products they introduce to our stores. Retail licensing provisions then facilitate ongoing monitoring and modification of retailer practices, strengthening enforcement and ensuring adherence to the measures we put in place.

It is important to acknowledge, as I know many noble Lords do, the dynamic nature of the products we are discussing and the fact that our scientific understanding of their long-term impact continues to evolve. Therefore, the Bill allows for the highly technical details of the regulatory regime to be set out in subsequent regulations that are well placed to adapt to emerging evidence and market innovations.

This is not just about the Bill. The Bill is part of a wider effort across government to address the challenges of smoking and youth vaping. The Government are actively supporting current smokers who wish to quit. We are increasing funding for local stop smoking services by an additional £70 million in 2025-26 and delivering national action, such as the national smoke-free pregnancy incentives scheme and the vaping Swap to Stop scheme.

The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has laid legislation that will see the ban of single-use vapes from 1 June this year, addressing a key factor in youth vaping as well as environmental concerns. Moreover, to discourage non-smokers and young people from starting vaping, and to generate revenue for public services, the Government will introduce a vaping products duty, which will come into force from 1 October 2026. In order to continue to incentivise smokers to quit and keep the differential in price, duty rates on all tobacco products were increased by 2% above inflation in the Autumn Budget, with further additional increases for hand-rolling tobacco to reduce the gap with cigarettes.

We recognise the importance of robust enforcement of our new laws and regulations, so the Government have announced £10 million of new funding in 2025-26 for Trading Standards to tackle the illicit and underage sale of tobacco and vapes, and to support implementation of the measures in the Bill. In total, we will invest £30 million of new funding in 2025-26 for enforcement agencies, including Trading Standards, Border Force and HMRC.

I extend my gratitude to noble Lords on all sides of the House for their ongoing support for the Bill and for getting it to this stage. The time to act is now, which is why this is priority legislation for this Government and why we have gone further than the previous Government. I look forward to the collegiate and constructive debate that I know will follow from my engagement thus far, and I will seek to respond to the main questions and themes. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all Members of your Lordships’ House who have contributed to what has been a thoughtful and wide-ranging debate on a very important issue.

Today’s debate has been very well supported. I hope that noble Lords will understand that I will not be able to cover in my summary every issue that has been raised, but I will endeavour to respond to as many of the themes and questions as possible. Of course, I will be happy to have further discussions with noble Lords, and we will have the opportunity for these ahead of and during future stages of the Bill. I too look forward to Committee.

It seems many hours ago since my noble friend Lady Thornton spoke of the measures in this Bill being a further step along the way. I share that view, which has been expressed by a number of other noble Lords, particularly those in what I shall politely call the cohort of former Health Ministers. I do not know what the collective term is, but I am sure we will work on that. I am in that cohort, and I too worked towards the initial smoking ban in 2007. As a Public Health Minister, I introduced the display regulations we are now so used to. When we introduced the original ban in 2007, no one could have dreamed of the challenges we have today, including vaping; this was not something we had considered. It was also important to go with the public, which is why I was keen to outline the public’s support in my opening remarks.

I am grateful for the challenge. I have heard many concerns being expressed today, along with outright opposition to the Bill. I have also heard much support for the Bill, although there are rightly questions about the measures in it. Many noble Lords have been supportive, including the noble Lords, Lord Lansley and Lord Stevens, who assisted me by anticipating some of the arguments that will be deployed. The noble Baronesses, Lady Redfern and Lady Smith, and many others, were also very supportive.

I am grateful to my colleagues on both Front Benches for taking a line similar to the one I am about to take in respect of the Chief Medical Officer’s views. These include:

“If you smoke, vaping is safer; if you don’t smoke, don’t vape.”


I am also very grateful to noble Lords who were good enough to join me yesterday at a briefing with the Chief Medical Officer and officials, which I certainly found helpful. I know that others did too.

I understand that there are different perspectives on a number of issues, and I now turn to some of the points that were raised. I heard concerns about the smoke-free generation policy from a number of noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Scriven, Lord Brady, Lord Naseby, Lord Sharpe, Lord Teverson and Lord Moylan. However, the reality is that smoking leads to significant harm. A clear majority of smokers regret ever having started. My noble friend Lord Browne spoke about this, as did the noble Lord, Lord Vaizey, who recounted his own personal experience. Many people struggle to give up due to the addictive nature of nicotine.

I am grateful to a number of noble Lords for sharing their personal experiences, which brought colour and a human touch to our debate. These included the noble Lords, Lord Jopling and Lord Rennard, my noble friends Lady Rafferty, Lady Ramsey and Lord Griffiths, and the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan.

However, let us remember that the harms of smoking extend beyond the individual. They impact on non-smokers, especially children and pregnant women, through second-hand smoke. This policy will be the most significant public health measure in a generation. It will build on the previous steps I spoke of, such as the 2007 indoor smoking ban, with the goal of safe- guarding the health of future generations from preventable and serious harm. That is why we are bringing the Bill forward.

The noble Baroness, Lady Fox, decried the Bill on a number of levels, including—she must forgive me if I am wrong on this—that it is Tory legislation. Actually, this is a Bill on which we are agreed across the House and across parties. Of course there are questions, but a wise Government and wise Opposition Benches acknowledge good when they see it. That is where we are today.

A number of noble Lords suggested raising the age of sale to a particular age—for example, 21 or 25—as a potential way to address smoking. As the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, put so well, that would not stop young people starting to smoke. The whole point is that, once you have started to smoke, the challenge of giving up is tremendous, because it is an addiction. Introducing a particular age could have a positive impact but it will not fully achieve the ambition of a smoke-free UK. Our goal is to go further, to break the cycle of addiction. We want to drive smoking rates down to 0%. That is why we have suggested a smoke-free generation.

On the practicalities, implementation is absolutely key. On ID checks, the majority of retailers sell tobacco and vapes responsibly—I acknowledge that. They follow the recommended practice and regularly ask for ID from customers. The Bill provides powers to specify in regulations the steps that may be taken to verify a customer’s age, to provide clarity and to support retailers. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, spoke to this point. We are exploring how we can enhance age verification with digital verification services, providing an opportunity to securely verify age, both in person and online.

With regard to the products in scope, the Bill captures all tobacco products, as tobacco is uniquely harmful. There are around five times more people smoking non-cigarette tobacco, such as cigars, than a decade ago, and the greatest increase is among young adults. To the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and the noble Lord, Lord Vaizey, I would say that this is why the Bill, importantly, captures all tobacco products and must not be watered down to exclude certain products.

The noble Earl, Lord Lindsay, and the noble Lords, Lord Strathcarron, Lord Scriven and Lord Brady, referred to other products outside of this range. I again call upon the words of the Chief Medical Officer: there is no safe level of tobacco consumption. That is what sets it apart from other products that we might feel are harmful. There is no safe level, not even a little bit; that is the key. Therefore, cigars, shisha and heated tobacco are all in scope. To the point raised earlier about heated tobacco, there is evidence from laboratory studies of its toxicity, and there are, as noble Lords have spoken of, less harmful tobacco-free products to support people to quit, rather than heated tobacco.

A number of noble Lords raised points about the growth in illicit sales. The noble Lords, Lord Dodds, Lord Blencathra, Lord Naseby, Lord Scriven, Lord Howard and Lord Murray, the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, and the noble Earl, Lord Leicester, were concerned that the Bill’s ambitions could be undermined in this respect. As other noble Lords have said, history shows that when we have introduced targeted tobacco control measures, the size of the illicit market has not increased. As the noble Lord, Lord Bichard, told the House, it has in fact continued to fall. When the age of sale increased from 16 to 18, the number of illicit cigarettes consumed fell by 25%.

On the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, the Government are cracking down on the demand for illicit trade, as well as the supply, with the joint strategy with HMRC and Border Force backed up by over £100 million of new funding over five years.

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bichard, for articulating support for those who work in trading standards as well as acknowledging their worth, and I share his views on that. As these were points raised by the noble Lords, Lord Moylan and Lord Udny-Lister, it might be helpful to reiterate that we have announced £10 million of new funding in 2025-26 for trading standards to boost the workforce and tackle the illicit and underage sale of tobacco and vapes.

A number of questions were raised about whether driving down the smoking of tobacco could lead to an increase in the smoking of cannabis. As the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, accurately said, the Bill is not banning the smoking of anything—it is in reference only to tobacco and vapes. I also ought to say that we are not aware of any link between the rates of smoking cannabis and the rates of smoking tobacco. I know that noble Lords are more than aware that cannabis is, of course, illegal.

On the matter of abuse against retail staff, raised by my noble friend Lady Carberry, we are working closely with retailers and will utilise the long lead-in time to best support them in preparing for and implementing these changes. That includes rolling out information campaigns for both the public and retail workers. We will not stand for violence and abuse against shop workers; everyone has the right to feel safe. To protect hard-working and dedicated staff who work in stores, this Government will introduce a new offence of assaulting a retail worker.

On the issue of smoke-free places, in England we intend to consult on extending smoke-free outdoor places to outside schools, children’s playgrounds and hospitals, but not—I say to my noble friend Lord Faulkner —to outdoor hospitality settings or wider open spaces such as beaches. This is because—and it might be helpful to the noble Baroness, Lady Bray, as an assurance—we judge that this adequately balances a range of priorities by protecting the most vulnerable while ensuring that businesses are not financially impacted.

There was a lot of discussion about the rationale for the broad powers, including within the Bill. Noble Lords are right to point to the high number of regulation-making powers that the Bill takes. I have no doubt that noble Lords have enjoyed or will enjoy scrutinising the 96-page delegated powers memorandum, which sets out in full the detail of the rationale for each and every one of the powers. I recommend it as good reading. Concerns were particularly raised by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Hoey and Lady Meyer. I assure noble Lords that each of these powers has been carefully considered and aims to ensure that the Bill establishes a clear regulatory regime for tobacco, vaping and nicotine products, and that we have worked very closely with the Attorney-General’s Office to get it in the right place.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, spoke to, given the need to adapt to emerging scientific understanding and to market innovations, it is crucial that the details of the regime are set out in regulations, to ensure sufficient flexibility. In addition, most of the regulations require significant technical detail, which is more appropriate for secondary legislation.

As some noble Lords referred to, the Bill is UK-wide, so certain powers are being repeated for each part of the UK. Equally, the Bill restates or amends a number of existing powers from across tobacco control legislation, to bring it together in one place. That will help to make legislation more useful and accessible.

I can assure noble Lords that the Bill provides a statutory requirement to consult on regulations, and we are working constructively with retail associations and the Local Government Association to help shape the early design of the scheme. The noble Lord, Lord Mott, was right to say that we should support responsible retailers, who are the majority and who want to do the right thing. They do not want to be undermined by those who are not being responsible. I put that to the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, who was concerned about impact.

On the matter of balance in respect of vapes, there was a useful debate, both in the Chamber and at a meeting I held with the Opposition Front Bench, about the matter of flavours. To avoid unintended consequences on adult smoking rates, the scope of restrictions will be carefully considered and consulted on. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, raised the issue of exemptions from the advertising ban for public health purposes. We are clear that healthcare providers can continue to provide advice about vaping as a smoking cessation tool. For example, pharmacists could display public health campaign messaging or provide advice to customers about vaping as a smoking cessation tool. I wish to say to my noble friends Lady Mattinson and Lord Hanworth, as well as the noble Earl, Lord Russell, that we will keep emerging evidence under review, and have already commissioned a 10-year study to investigate the long-term effects of vaping on the health of 100,000 young people, which I hope will be helpful.

On the matter of filters and the environment, I understand and am sympathetic to the concerns raised by noble Lords, including the noble Baronesses, Lady Grey-Thompson and Lady Bennett. The environmental harm of items with tobacco butts is evident, as it is the most littered item in the UK. Ultimately, the best way to tackle this littering is through reducing smoking rates, but we are where we are. Local authorities already have powers to tackle littering, including through the ability to issue fixed penalty notices of up to £500. We are working closely with Defra to take a systematic approach to what is indeed something of a blight.

On the matter of age and the concerns, including twins born either side of midnight, should such a thing ever happen, I remind noble Lords that other policies already do this, such as universal credit increases, NHS screening programmes and access to vaccines.

On the “polluter pays” levy, raised by the noble Lords, Lord Crisp and Lord Young of Cookham, my noble friend Lord Faulkner and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, the Government’s present preference is, as I think noble Lords are aware, to continue with a proven and effective method of dealing with tobacco products through increases in tobacco duties, to incentivise those who currently smoke to quit, and to generate finances that can be put back into public services.

I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, for his support for the Bill and appreciate the intentions behind his suggestion to be smoke-free by 2040.

On the points about the Windsor Framework, I have heard the concerns about the application of smoke-free generation policy in Northern Ireland from the noble Lords, Lord Dodds and Lord Weir, the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, and my noble friend Lady Ritchie. I have met the Northern Ireland Health Minister, and we continue to work well with his office. I assure noble Lords that we are content that the measures intended to apply to Northern Ireland are consistent with the obligations in the Windsor Framework.

In closing, I am most grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to this debate. This is a landmark Bill, and it will be the most significant public health intervention in a generation, so I beg to move.

Bill read a second time.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill

Baroness Merron Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 27th October 2025 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)]

My Lords, I am most grateful for the amendments and also the contributions today. As we know, this group of amendments seeks to change or to place conditions on our smoke-free generation policy. As the noble Lord, Lord Young, and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, both observed, this group is very much at the core of the Bill and I understand the amount of interest that we have had today.

Let me say at the outset that there are a number of areas raised by noble Lords that I will return to in much greater detail, including, as the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, to: verification and retailers in group two; illicit sales and licensing in group 13; tobacco products that are in scope in group 16; and vaping, which is in groups five and six. I look forward to the detail of those debates when we get to them.

Perhaps I could say that I am grateful for the supportive comments on this Bill, which, as we have been reminded throughout, was introduced under the previous Government. Credit goes to them for doing so, in particular for the commitment that was shown by the former Prime Minister, the right honourable Rishi Sunak. I am therefore grateful to my noble friend Lady Carberry, the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, and the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, who helpfully reminded us all that this is a health Bill, and that is what we are here to consider. I also thank the noble Lords, Lord Bethell and Lord Young, and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, all of whom have been supportive of the smoke-free generation principle and have emphasised to the Committee today the amount of public support for that and its role in stopping the cycle of addiction.

I will start with the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Murray of Blidworth, which propose changing the age of sale and proxy purchasing offences. These amendments would make it an offence to sell tobacco products, herbal smoking products or cigarette papers to a person under the age of 21. They would also make it an offence to buy or attempt to buy these products on behalf of anyone under the age of 21.

I am also grateful for the points that were just made by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, on this group of amendments. I cannot fail to emphasise that smoking is indeed the number one preventable cause of death, disability and ill health. It is unique in its harm, because it claims the lives of around 80,000 people a year in the UK, it causes one in four of all cancer deaths in England and up to two-thirds of deaths in current smokers can be attributed to smoking. I am sure that, over the years, noble Lords have heard the Chief Medical Officer’s opinion of the contribution that smoking makes, and that there is no safe level of smoking.

To the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, who spoke about restrictions on adults’ individual autonomy, three-quarters of people who smoke wish that they had never started smoking. The majority want to quit and we want to help them. In my view, smoking is not about freedom of choice; I believe that the tobacco industry takes that choice away through addiction, particularly at a young age. In my view and that of a number of noble Lords whom I have heard speak, there is no liberty if we are speaking of addiction.

Almost every minute, someone is admitted to hospital because of smoking and up to 75,000 GP appointments can be attributed to smoking every single month. There is, as has been referred to, an economic cost. It is estimated to cost our society more than £21 billion a year in England alone, including £3 billion a year in costs to our health and care service. This is far from insignificant.

That is why this Government has made a commitment to create a smoke-free generation, so that anyone born on or after 1 January 2009 will never be legally sold tobacco products. I recall the noble Lords, Lord Scriven and Lord Mackinlay, making a particular reference to the potential contribution of people bringing tobacco back from abroad, but the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, and the noble Lords, Lord Murray and Lord Strathcarron, talked about the Bill prohibiting smoking. Let me make it clear: the smoke-free generation policy is not about criminalising people who smoke. It will not be an offence to possess or consume tobacco, regardless of your age. I can tell the noble Lords, Lord Scriven and Lord Mackinlay, that we are not imposing new restrictions on bringing tobacco back into this country.

I agree with my noble friend Lady Carberry. It is my belief—it is not just a belief, in fact; it is based on experience—that, if we raise the age of sale to 21, to which this group of amendments refers, the tobacco industry will simply change its business model and target older adults; a number of noble Lords referred to this. It will not meet our ambition of a smoke-free UK.

Similarly, the Bill makes proxy purchasing an offence such that anyone over the age of 18 cannot legally purchase tobacco products on behalf of someone born on or after 1 January 2009. The noble Lord, Lord Scriven, and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, asked important questions about the handling of proxy purchasing. I have explained clearly what the offence is and who would be responsible for it. This is about protecting children from the harms of smoking. I reiterate that tobacco is uniquely harmful. As I have said, there is no safe level of smoking; I emphasise that, to my knowledge, no other consumer product is killing two-thirds of its users.

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

I just want to pursue the issue of proxy purchasing abroad. My question was not about whether people will be able to buy tobacco abroad or whether duty-free limits will cease. My question was: if somebody buys cigarettes in a jurisdiction outside the UK and, when they come back, gives one of them to someone who is not legally entitled to buy them here, will that be an illegal act for the UK citizen who has bought that product abroad?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The purchasing referred to is within our jurisdiction.

That gives me an opportunity to make a general but important point. This is about changing culture and practice. It is not about everything staying the same. This is not just a message but a practice in terms of what is acceptable and what is not. All noble Lords have seen changes over the years, as I did when I was the Public Health Minister in the previous Labour Government, which have meant that we can speak about this Bill, as we are doing today, in a way that I do not think would have been possible just a few years ago. Tobacco is a deadly addiction, and preventing children starting to smoke is undoubtedly the easiest way to reduce smoking rates. We have to be bold and brave on this, which is why we are committed to creating a smoke-free generation.

My noble friend Lady Carberry mentioned the impact assessment. Modelling shows that creating a smoke-free generation is expected to help reduce smoking rates among 14 to 30 year-olds to near zero by 2050. That is a prize worth having, in my view. Over the next 50 years, it will save tens of thousands of lives, as well as many years lived in ill health with misery, discomfort and pain; it will also avoid up to 130,000 cases of lung cancer, stroke and heart disease. As I say, all of these are, I believe, prizes worth having.

On the impact assessment, a number of noble Lords said that an “age 21” policy would have just the same impact as a smoke-free generation policy. That is not true. We are aware that the tobacco industry has been telling parliamentarians this. I must say, again, that it is incorrect. The published modelling considered different scenarios for the impact of the smoke-free generation policy; it did not model the impact of raising the age of sale to 21. I believe that we have a responsibility to protect future generations from becoming addicted to nicotine; to break the cycle of addiction and disadvantage; and to allow people the chance to live healthier lives.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

The Minister must be clear that the report was done by KPMG; it was commissioned by Philip Morris Ltd, but it was not written by that organisation.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I am happy to accept that clarification, but the point that I am driving is still being driven.

I now move on to Amendments 5 and 205 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, which seek to introduce an interim age of sale of 21 at Royal Assent, before the smoke-free generation provisions come into force. Although I appreciate the noble Lord’s ambition in seeking to raise the age of sale for relevant products, which we are discussing, it is my view that these amendments are not necessary; indeed, they would distract from our ambitions. Let me explain why.

Under this Bill, the smoke-free generation will come into force in 2027 when people born on or after 1 January 2009 turn 18. Subject to timetabling, these amendments would mean that any interim age of sale proposed by the noble Lord would be in place for only a year or less. Retailers and enforcement agencies—they are, as many noble Lords have acknowledged, absolutely key to the success of this measure—would not be provided with any time to prepare for the increase to 21. I do not feel, therefore, that a measure such as this one would be helpful; indeed, it would divert resources.

The important matter of communication to the public came up in the debate. The noble Lord’s amendments would confuse all such communications if a different regime were to apply for such a short time.

The noble Lords, Lord Strathcarron and Lord Mackinlay—as well as other noble Lords—referred to the situation in Australia. Let me say this in response: we are not aware of any evidence for the illicit market in Australia being the result of a change in the age of sale. In fact, I am advised that Australia has not changed its age of sale since 1998. I say this to noble Lords: the UK is highly regarded for its robust, comprehensive approach to tackling illicit tobacco. Despite what the tobacco industry may say, implementing tobacco controls does not lead to an increase in the illicit market.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

My Lords, we have another Division, so the Committee is again suspended for 10 minutes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I hope my responses have been a reassurance to the Committee and that the proposers of these amendments will feel able not to press them.

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

May I ask one question? The Minister has not yet touched on the issue of Northern Ireland. Is it right that the Windsor Framework precludes the generational smoking ban coming into effect in Northern Ireland?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The Bill is UK-wide, as the noble Lord will be aware. It has been developed in partnership with the Scottish Government, the Welsh Government and the Northern Ireland Executive, and the intention is that the measures in the Bill will apply across the UK. I assure him that, in preparing the Bill, the Government considered all their domestic and international obligations and the Bill does comply.

[Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)]

I thank the Minister for her answer and her remarks, and all noble Lords who have spoken in this fascinating group. While the amendments themselves are not fascinating—because I proposed them—the speeches of noble Lords have been. They have shown a consistent and deep interest in the topic and a variance of views.

A number of issues remain unanswered, as highlighted by the somewhat roundabout answer on the compatibility of the generational ban with the Windsor Framework. Noble Lords will no doubt still have a number of other questions, in particular in relation to the fact that there is no proposal in the Bill for possession of tobacco to be an offence, nor the smoking of it. Instead, we are told that there is to be an offence of supplying cigarettes and buying them for another. That sort of offence is unworkable and unenforceable, and is effectively window-dressing for a scheme that is highly unlikely to succeed. That perhaps stands as a totem for a problem with the generational ban more generally—it is unworkable and unenforceable and will lead to greater criminality.

We saw from the speeches by Members across the Committee that there is a range of views. Accordingly, I suspect that there is a real risk that, if this Bill were to pass with the generational ban in it, it would be revisited in the same way as occurred in New Zealand when realisation of successful implementation was seen to be too far off and the approach changed. With that, although I reserve the right to reconsider the issue on Report, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Howe (Con)]

My Lords, I turn next to my noble friend Lord Lansley’s amendments, which would introduce requirements and provide enabling powers for age-verification technology to be built into vaping devices themselves. This proposal opens up all sorts of interesting avenues of thought. The idea of age-gating devices, using technology to prevent use by those who are underage, is innovative by any standards. As we heard from my noble friend, there is already at least one technology that would facilitate this; like him, I am led by the manufacturers to understand that it has been successfully trialled in the United States.

There could be distinct advantages to such a system: it would close a loophole that rogue sellers currently exploit; it would be more effective as a way of reducing the incidence of underage vaping; it could avoid unpleasant confrontations in retail stores, about which we know retailers are very worried; and, as my noble friend said, it would not affect the way in which adults use vapes as a way of quitting smoking. From the Government’s point of view, an amendment along the lines of my noble friend’s would act as a form of future-proofing the Bill, because it would enable them to regulate the technology in devices or packaging— a power that this Bill does not currently give them. Can the Minister tell us whether the Government have considered systems of this kind and whether officials are aware of developments in this field?

I turn to the amendment in the name of the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, which calls for a review of age-verification methods. The Committee will be grateful to him for raising this idea; it links into my noble friend Lord Lansley’s amendment, but it also speaks to the crucial principle that we must remain properly informed about how these measures will work in practice. This Bill introduces a major new regulatory framework, so it has to be monitored and tested against real-world evidence. Age verification will, as I have said, be central to the Bill’s success, so we need credible and accurate systems to facilitate it. The noble Viscount is therefore right to emphasise the need to engage directly with those on the front line: the retailers who will have to implement these rules every day. Their experience will be one of the best indicators of whether the system is working as intended.

I turn to the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, introduced by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, which seek to place a statutory requirement on businesses to operate age-verification policies in England and Wales. These are well-intentioned amendments, and we share entirely the objective of preventing underage sales. However, as I read it, the Bill as drafted already makes it an offence to sell tobacco or vaping products to anyone below the legal age and provides for a due diligence defence for retailers who have taken all reasonable precautions. In practice, that means having and enforcing an age-verification policy, which is the very outcome that these amendments seek to achieve. The familiar Challenge 25 model is already a well-established part of a range of retailer compliance. So, although we understand and respect the motivation behind these amendments, we do not believe that it is necessary to restate these duties in the Bill.

I welcome the amendment from my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham, which would prohibit the online sale of tobacco products. This raises serious and timely questions around enforcement, fairness and the protection of legitimate retailers. My noble friend put his case very well. Online sales prevent a potential route for illicit or underage trade; as purchasing habits continue to shift online, that risk will surely only increase. We therefore see every benefit in exploring whether a prohibition or stricter control of online sales is appropriate.

If I were to voice a caveat, which I am sure my noble friend would not object to, it would be that we must always ensure that law-abiding retailers—those who comply with the law and operate responsibly—are not disadvantaged. Any new regulation has to be clear, enforceable and fair. The central question here is: has the Minister given any thought to this issue? If so, what capacity do the Government have to enforce a measure such as the one suggested by my noble friend? What mechanisms exist to distinguish legitimate traders from those operating illicitly? Can we control online sales in the way we would like to do? I am sure that the Minister will be the first to recognise that, if unregulated online trade becomes a loophole—indeed, it already is—it will seriously undermine the objectives of the Bill.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, this group of amendments addresses the important topics of age verification and online sales. I am grateful to all noble Lords for not just their contributions but the intent behind these amendments—an intent that I have heard as being presented to assist the Bill. I am grateful for noble Lords’ considerations; I have certainly heard the support given by the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, to a number of these amendments.

I turn to Amendments 24 and 25 tabled by my noble friend Lord Davies of Brixton, who is not able to be in his place. We wish him well. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, for presenting these amendments, which would introduce a requirement for a person carrying on a business selling tobacco, herbal smoking, vaping or nicotine products, in England or Wales, to operate an age-verification policy. I certainly welcome the intention to prevent underage sales and to express a view—as I have heard not just from the noble Baroness but from other noble Lords—about supporting retailers to do the job that we are asking of them. I associate myself with that, but we believe that the Bill’s current provisions are sufficient in this regard.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

Is the Minister aware of the retailers—some 3,000 of them—which have written to Ministers to make the point, which emerged in a number of noble Lords’ speeches, about how concerned retailers are about the emphasis upon them denying access to vapes? The use of age-gating technology would substantially relieve those pressures on retailers.

We need to look at what the evidence may be about whether adult smokers who wish to quit by using vapes would be at all deterred by the age-gating technology. To that extent, what worries me is that we may conclude, either through international experience or pilot schemes in this country, that they are not deterred at all. Then suddenly we do not have access to a technology that would deal with illicit sales and proxy purchasing, which the point-of-sale restrictions will not bite upon. I worry that we should have the powers available.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I understand the point the noble Lord makes. I believe I said that it potentially risks making vapes less accessible. I know that that is not a view that he shares. I also agree that, where there is evidence, we need to be focused on it in the measures we are taking. But the position I have outlined is the case. I will reflect on the comments that he and other noble Lords have made, which I have heard very well. I understand the concerns of retailers and I am very aware of them; that is why we continue to work so closely with their trade associations to overcome difficulties. We do not want retailers to be put in a position where they cannot do the job that they want to do. We will continue in our work in that way.

With that, I hope the noble Lord will feel about to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her concluding remarks and for the sensitive and attentive way that she commented on the debate; she has clearly listened to what noble Lords said and sought to respond within the limits of government policy. As far as my own amendments are concerned, I heard what she said with just a hint of encouragement; there was not a slamming of the door at least, so I look forward to seeing what the Government come forward with on Report.

Concerning the other amendments in this group, I refer to the fact that the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, used the words unintended consequences. The Bill potentially has quite a lot of unintended consequences. Some of them relate to age verification and the role of retailers in the architecture created by the Bill. There are potential lacunae in the Bill.

I simply say that the sooner the Government come forward with draft regulations and a clear idea of what is being required, the happier noble Lords will be and, more importantly, the happier the retailers—including online retailers—will be with the Bill as it goes forward. I hope that the Minister recognises that and feels that the Government can act on it. Perhaps we might even see some draft regulations before the Bill completes its passage through your Lordships’ House. In the meantime, with that hopeful and optimistic wish on my lips, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their thoughtful contributions. As they have acknowledged, the Government are taking bold action to create the first smoke-free generation. Our published modelling shows that smoking rates in England among 14 to 30 year-olds could be close to 0% as early as 2050. I make that point particularly in respect of Amendment 4, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Bethell.

I sympathise with the intention of his amendment and with the other amendments we have debated in this group. Let me assure noble Lords that, as is consistent with best practice, we will evaluate this legislation as is appropriate and helpful, such as by monitoring smoking rates over time. We need to ensure that no one is left behind in this smoke-free UK that we seek to create.

However, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, that we do not believe that an outright ban would be the most effective or proportionate way of encouraging current smokers to quit. As he knows, we are taking an evidence-based approach to supporting current smokers to quit and have invested an additional £70 million both last year and this year to support local authority-led stop-smoking services in England. We are continuing our national smoke-free pregnancy incentive scheme to support pregnant smokers to quit, which the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, referred to.

I turn to Amendment 193, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham. I aspire to be as mindful as I know he is of the importance of parliamentary scrutiny of the implementation of legislation. As I mentioned, we will assess the implementation of the Act, which is consistent. For measures implemented by secondary legislation, we will publish post-implementation reviews as appropriate. I can also commit to publishing a report on the Bill before Parliament, in line with our requirements, so we do not feel that it is necessary to outline this in the Bill. There are no plans to develop a report on specific targets or to publish a road map at this time, because we are focusing our attention and total ambition on making sure that we can deliver the Bill and work on the regulations that will follow.

The noble Lord, Lord Young, asked about a retained target to have a smoke-free England by 2030. We are going even further than the Smokefree 2030 target. As I have mentioned throughout, our ambition is for a smoke-free UK and creating the first smoke-free generation.

Finally, I turn to Amendment 199, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover. The Government are committed to ensuring the successful implementation of all measures in the Bill, as I am sure she appreciates. We will ensure that the public, retailers, enforcement bodies and other relevant groups are aware of all measures and their associated commencement date. We will publish clear guidance in advance to aid a smooth transition. The noble Baroness’s amendment also seeks to include measures to raise public awareness. That is absolutely key, as the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, also said.

I say to noble Lords that we run successful public health campaigns to support smokers to quit and to inform the public on the harms of tobacco. Indeed, this month is our annual Stoptober campaign. I therefore reassure the noble Baroness that my officials are working to ensure that everyone will be informed about the smoke-free generation policy and the benefits of quitting and continuing that route.

To the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, about social media campaigns, earlier this year we launched the first ever campaign to inform young people about the health risks of vaping. The campaign featured on social media and paid media used by young people, and the noble Baroness will be delighted to know that that included working with trusted influencers to speak directly to—how might I put it?—a younger audience.

On the comments by the noble Lord, Lord Harlech, the matter of which tobacco products are in scope will be covered in detail in group 16, and I look forward to discussing that.

On the basis of those responses, I hope the noble Lords will feel able not to press their amendments.

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her concluding remarks, which were thoughtful, detailed and thorough. I congratulate the Government on pursuing these measures with the energy and determination that Rishi Sunak brought to it when he was Prime Minister. They still enjoy widespread support in all corners of the House—not unanimous support, but widespread.

I am grateful for the Minister’s commitment to the £70 million cessation budget and to the smoke-free pregnancy programme that my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham mentioned. I am grateful for her commitment to evaluation and assessment and to a post-implementation review. These are standard. I hope very much that she has taken on board the comments about the need for a clear road map and for accountability, and I am grateful for everything that she said on that.

I also emphasise the importance of a public health campaign—whether it should use influencers and Kardashians, I am not quite sure—and I pay tribute to the DHSC and the NHS for their public health campaigns, which have proved to be effective: they are good curators of the nation’s health when it comes to campaigning. I emphasise to the Minister the critical importance of getting both the guidance and the communication right. We do not legislate in order to communicate, but the communication of good legislation is very important.

I also stand by the Minister’s comments on cigars and other tobacco products. I thought my noble friend Lord Harlech made extremely clear and persuasive points. I totally take on board everything he said on my 2040 extinction proposal and would very much like to talk to him about that in future, and how it might be shaped.

With that in mind, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill

Baroness Merron Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 30th October 2025 Grand Committee

[Earl Howe (Con)]

It certainly could be—it sounds a very interesting way forward. I did not take it that the noble Earl was suggesting introducing a levy as a substitute for tobacco duty but as an addition to it, so, in the nature of things, if this were accepted, that is the mix we would get.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)]

My Lords, I am most grateful for the debate today on this group of amendments, which seek to impose regulatory obligations on the tobacco industry. Although in general I would certainly say that I have sympathy for the aims behind these proposals, I suggest that, for the reasons I will go on to outline, they are not necessary in respect of the Bill.

Amendment 192, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, seeks to require the Secretary of State to consult on proposals for regulating the prices and profits of, and to raise funds from, tobacco manufacturers and importers. Similarly, Amendment 194 from the noble Earl, Lord Russell, seeks to require the Secretary of State to introduce regulations to raise funds from tobacco manufacturers and retailers.

The noble Earl, Lord Howe, made the first point that I was intending to make. I feel that in many ways —I know not all noble Lords will share this view—we already have a “polluter pays” tax on tobacco, which comes in the form of tobacco duties, as the noble Earl outlined. Overall, throughout, I am very focused on what impact will be made on improving public health and driving down rates of smoking, as I know we all are. I also appreciate that there are different opinions as to how that might be done. It has been pointed out regularly to the Government that the UK has some of the highest tobacco taxes in the world. Duty rates on all tobacco products were increased by 2% above inflation in the Autumn Budget last year, with an additional increase for hand-rolling tobacco to reduce the gap with cigarettes, and this duty raises about £8 billion a year.

I am aware that the noble Lords, Lord Bourne and Lord Scriven, in addition to other noble Lords, are very supportive of these amendments. I am sure that noble Lords who have quoted me accurately today will probably say I should have looked at this before, but I refer back to, as the previous Government will be aware, a previous consultation in 2014, which showed that going down this road would not raise the significant amounts being referred to when you take into account lost duties.

I have spent quite a lot of time with officials and others going through the detail of all this, not least because of my previous comments. Certainly, having had the chance to review the detailed government advice and all that comes with it, which I now have access to as a Minister, I think that the way to reduce the profits of the tobacco industry is to reduce the use of tobacco—I believe I said that on day one in Committee—and by creating a smoke-free generation. That is not just a prize in itself but will have a great impact, in the way I think noble Lords seek, on the industry. It is unclear to me how an additional levy on tobacco industry profits could be implemented without the costs being passed on to consumers—again, there was some concern about that in this debate—or without regulating prices.

The noble Lord, Lord Young, referred to a price cap on tobacco products. Certainly, my investigation into this shows that regulating pricing would be extremely complicated to design and implement, and difficult to shield from abuse and challenge by the global tobacco industry. Therefore, given that, as I just said, our focus is on implementing our smoke-free generation, our judgment is that the benefits do not outweigh the costs.

Therefore, at this stage, to do the job that I believe most people—not everybody, I know—is focused on, our preference would be to continue with what is a proven, effective and understood model of increasing tobacco duties. This approach provides an incentive to those who currently smoke. It incentivises them to quit, which is what we want to focus on, as well as generating revenue to be put back into a full range of public services, including public health and the National Health Service.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, who I know is extremely well aware that I am about to say this, that of course tobacco taxation is a matter for His Majesty’s Treasury, and decisions on taxes are reserved for fiscal events. I would be extremely unwise, in my position, to speculate in advance of a forthcoming Budget.

Moving on to Amendment 12—

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

Houdini would be jealous of the way the Minister ingeniously escaped the trap I set for her earlier, as she tried to reconcile her previous position with what she is now saying. But does she accept that the amendment does not at all ask the Government to introduce a levy? It says:

“The Secretary of State must consult and report on the desirability”.


That would enable the Government, and indeed others, to look at some of the issues that the Minister has raised. The 2014 exercise she referred to consulted on a totally different levy, which would have been passed on to the consumer. The difference between the “polluter pays” principle as we propose it and the one that she proposes is that in the case we prefer, it would be the tobacco manufacturers that would pay, whereas relying on the duty, as the Minister seems to, means that the consumer pays.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I agree that Amendment 192, tabled by the noble Lord, would require the Government to consult on introducing a tobacco industry levy, but, as a former Minister himself, he will be aware of the use of consultation. It remains the case that we believe that the most effective model of dealing with tobacco products is through increases in tobacco duty, so it would not be logical to accept an amendment that requires a consultation on something the Government do not wish to pursue. Amendment 194, in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Russell, would require the Government to make regulations to introduce a tobacco industry levy.

Amendment 12, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, would require the Secretary of State to lay regulations requiring tobacco manufacturers and importers to publish quarterly data relating to the sale of tobacco products across England and Wales. Similarly, Amendment 148, also tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, would require regulations made under Clause 95 to require the provision of certain information, including sales data from producers or importers of relevant products. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, also spoke in support of these amendments.

This is perhaps an opportunity to refer back to the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Fox. I heard her concerns about what I said on day one. This is not a question of labelling an industry in any way, but we take very seriously our obligations as a party to the World Health Organization Framework Convention on Tobacco Control. I and the Government are very sympathetic to attempts to increase and improve the transparency of the tobacco industry.

I certainly agree with the observations of the noble Baroness, Lady Northover. We know that deprived areas are more likely to have lower life expectancy and higher smoking rates. That is why we particularly need to press forward with this legislation. It is also why we routinely and proactively publish correspondence received from and sent to the tobacco industry, and have produced guidance for the Government on engagement with the tobacco industry, which protects health policy from the commercial and vested interests of the tobacco industry and encourages transparency in all interactions.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

That is an important point. When will the consultation end? Will we have its results before we are asked to give this Bill its Third Reading?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I will gladly come back to the points that the noble Lord has just made, if he will allow me. In the meantime, there is no doubt as to the intention and ambition of each of the amendments before us, but it is the Government’s view that they either are unnecessary, due to existing powers, or would risk introducing complexity and unintended consequences; they would not do the job that I know we all want them to do. Once again, I assure noble Lords that we remain committed to reducing smoking, to improving public health and to ensuring transparency around the tobacco industry’s activities.

In so doing—this is perhaps the overall point of this group—I can say that the answer to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, it is 3 December 2025 on which we can set that date for the call for evidence to close. What I am trying to say to noble Lords is that that is very soon. In answer to the noble Lord’s concerns about how long these things might take—

[Lord Scriven (LD)]

My question to the Minister was slightly different. It was not about when the consultation will close. It was about whether we would have the results and the Government’s view before Third Reading. That is the critical question—not, “When will the consultation close?”

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The noble Lord will be glad to know that I am reminded of what I should know already: matters in relation to the dates for Third Reading are matters for business managers. It will also depend on how much progress we make.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

I ask for a brief clarification. Is the Minister claiming that Amendment 12 is not necessary because she will accept Amendment 148?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

No, that is not the case. I urge the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, this group is about the polluter paying and responsibility across a wide range of areas. On Amendment 12, on the practice of disclosing sales data, it is already in place in the United States—full data to the Government and partial to public sources. It is also the practice in Canada, so there is precedent for that. It is not seen as an unreasonable burden, but it is a useful public health tool. It is important to know, for public health reasons, which I and others have outlined, where sales are high.

The noble Baroness, Lady Fox, referred to growth. She might want to consider the economic and growth consequences of the ill-health costs to individuals, families and the NHS and the death that results for so many consumers of tobacco products, then factor that in when she is looking at growth in the United Kingdom. Tobacco kills, which she rightly referred to. I do not need to refer her to the cancer registries—that is self-evident. It is therefore appropriate that we address this. As a former student of Marx, as she identifies herself, she will be very familiar with the notion of exploitation, particularly of the poor and already disadvantaged, to which I have referred, and the difference at the moment in outcomes between groups in terms of equality.

This is an important area. We are seeking to strengthen the Government’s arm, as is always the case when you move from “may” to “must”. We look forward to further discussions with the Minister on how best we do that. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Patel (CB)]

It comes from tobacco.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions on this group of amendments exploring the part of the Bill that relates to the sale of vaping products. I will make a general point to start with, which may be helpful as it has come up a number of times in the debate. It is true to say that vapes are less harmful than smoking because they do not contain tobacco and have fewer harmful chemicals. However, because there is a nicotine content and there are unknown long-term harms, there is a risk of harm and addiction that comes with vaping. That is particularly acute for adolescents whose brains are still developing.

There is a careful balance to be struck in taking action against youth vaping, by which I mean children and young people, while ensuring that vapes absolutely remain accessible to adults who are seeking to quit. Noble Lords will have heard me refer before to the Chief Medical Officer, who is clear that if you smoke, vaping will be a better option; but if you do not smoke, do not vape. It could not be clearer.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Russell (LD)]

I welcome the Minister’s response. However, she said that my amendment would make vaping significantly more expensive than smoking but I want to fundamentally challenge that. That is not the case. The £25 would be a one-time deal; after that, you would save every time you refilled your vape. You would just spend £25 once in your lifetime. That is not making vaping more expensive than smoking in any way at all.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I appreciate the clarification that the noble Earl has made. If that is the case, though, I have to say that that would send a complex pricing message to people, and we are not seeking to add complexity to where we are going. I am not sure I agree with the analysis but I am happy to look at the point that he is making.

Perhaps it will be helpful if I reassure the noble Earl that we are already acting to pick up the point that he rightly raised and which the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, was keen to emphasise, which is to ensure that vapes are not sold for pocket-money prices. Indeed, the Chancellor has confirmed the introduction of a vaping products duty from 1 October 2026. That will set out a single flat rate of £2.20 per 10 millilitres on all vaping liquids, and it will be accompanied by a simultaneous one-off increase in the rate for tobacco duties.

The noble Earl, Lord Russell, raised a number of points about the environmental damage done by vapes. I will be pleased to hear and respond to the debate in the next group about single-use vaping.

The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, asked about vapes being prescribed as a quit aid. We have a world-first scheme here, Swap to Stop, to help adults to ditch cigarettes as part of a 12-week programme of support, as I highlighted earlier in response to the noble Lord, Lord Moylan.

Amendment 28, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, would prohibit businesses from providing free samples of tobacco and vaping products. The noble Baroness said herself that Clause 15 already bans the free distribution of any product or coupon that has the purpose or effect of promoting a tobacco, herbal smoking, vaping or nicotine product as well as cigarette papers, and that includes free samples. It should never have been the case that addictive nicotine and vaping products could have been legally handed out for free, and I am glad to say that the Bill closes that loophole. Clause 15 also states that products cannot be sold at a substantial discount, which will ensure that businesses cannot heavily discount products to the point where the price is no longer such a relevant factor for a prospective purchaser. So the noble Baroness is quite right to seek to close that loophole, and I am grateful to her for raising the issue, but I can confirm that the Bill already achieves her intention.

[Earl Howe (Con)]

To pick up on that, I ask the Minister to clarify the issue that was left slightly in the air earlier about the derivation of nicotine. While nicotine can be synthetically produced, it is derived from tobacco, but the point made by definition in the Bill is that a vaping product is a distinct product from a tobacco product. So the advertisement seen by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, which I agree is highly regrettable, may be accurate in saying that the product is derived from tobacco but is not a tobacco product. Is that correct?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, if we take the logic of the noble Baroness’s argument about nicotine being derived from tobacco, does that drive a coach and horses through the distinction between tobacco products and vaping products? Wherever you stand on this argument, are we now arguing that vaping products are, in fact, tobacco products because the nicotine in them is derived from tobacco? We all have to clarify this, whichever side of the argument we are on.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I fear to tread here—I will be brief. The Bill distinguishes between tobacco products, nicotine products and vaping products. They are separate products. I emphasise the point that I made earlier: vapes are not risk-free, although they are less harmful than smoking. They do not involve burning tobacco, which releases tar and carbon monoxide. However, I must say, having heard the range of debate, I feel that it would be very helpful for me to write to noble Lords with further clarity on these points.

[Noble Lords]

Hear, hear.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I look forward to doing so.

I turn to Amendment 16, which was moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, and tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson. It seeks to probe the reasoning behind the age of sale for vapes and nicotine products set out in Clause 10, as well as why this differs from the proposed new voting age. The Bill restates the existing age of sale of 18 for nicotine vaping products; it also extends this restriction on the age of sale to nicotine products and non-nicotine vaping products, to which no age restrictions currently apply.

On the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, the age of sale for these products and the voting age serve completely different purposes. The age of sale for vaping and nicotine products aims to prevent children and young people becoming addicted to harmful products at a very young age. The risks of harm and addiction from vaping and nicotine products are, as I mentioned earlier, particularly acute for adolescents, whose brains are still developing, so an age of sale of 18 is proportionate to the risks posed.

The age of sale of 18 is indeed distinct from extending the right to vote to 16 and 17 year-olds. In the latter case, which we have yet to debate in the House and the other place, extending the right to vote allows them to have a say in shaping their future and engaging in our democracy. We are looking at completely different criteria. The Government have set out their plans to bring forward their legislation on electoral reform, and I am sure noble Lords look forward to debating those proposals in due course. For all these reasons, I hope noble Lords will feel able to withdraw their amendments.

[Lord Moylan (Con)]

May I probe a little on the noble Baroness’s response to my Amendment 18? On the one hand, she seemed to take a hard and unrelenting line on vending machines, particularly in enclosed mental health premises. On the other, the noble Baroness said towards the end that she was still working on it, and I wondered to what extent one could look for hope. I am sure the noble Baroness said that she was still working on these issues. I appreciate that she has consulted the National Health Service, but I think she probably means NHS England, a vast organisation at some distance removed from patient contact. In fact, it has no patient contact at all. The noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, said that representations have been made by a certain number of mental health trusts on just this issue. Their views need to be considered, because they are very much closer to real life. May we hope that the Minister will come back at a later stage with something that modifies the severity and comprehensiveness of the ban that is, as she says, in a Bill that we are here to change?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I will be happy to check exactly what I said but, to be clear, we are not continuing discussions about vapes in hospital and mental health settings, in respect of vending machines. As I said, that is in the Bill. I hope I was making the point that discussions are continuing in respect of vape-free places, and that will be a matter for regulations. I assure the noble Lord that NHS England was in full consultation with the relevant parts of the services. It does provide services and it is the right organisation. As the noble Lord knows, we are bringing NHSE into the department in any case in the future. I am sure he will welcome that, as I certainly do.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

This has been a wide-ranging debate and I thank the variety of noble Lords who spoke. There has been some clarity: it might not be clarity that I am happy with, but we heard the noble Earl, Lord Russell, say that his aspiration is a nicotine-free generation, not just a tobacco-free one. There has been some confusion about the conflation of tobacco and nicotine. The Bill, at least, makes a distinction between those things. It is possible that the Minister—and every other Lord who wanted to get rid of that distinction—wants to challenge the nature of the very core of the Bill, but I assure them that the Bill makes that distinction. If that is not true, it would be interesting to hear what has happened there.

Also, medical scientific discussion on this makes the distinction very clearly and endlessly, particularly, by the way, by oncologists. Those who work with people who have developed cancers from smoking are very enthusiastically promoting nicotine products. As I understood it—as I was assured at Second Reading by the Government and noticed in other communications —we should not be fearful that vaping was a target of prohibition from the Bill. But the more the conversation goes on, and the more it is treated the same, then that is the direction of travel. I would still argue that when one says that the evidence is not in on whether something is helpful, it is not a scientific way of approaching it. The evidence is not in on a wide range of things that are happening in the world. It is evidence that we base evidence-based policies on, not the lack of it.

In the discussion on young people, we ended up discussing whether we are protecting children in a variety of the amendments, through to 20 and 30-somethings in a nightclub who should not be let near a vending machine with vapes in it. My point was not that they would be recreationally vaping because they would be having a good time and therefore it was very dangerous. Although, I have to say that having a good time in a nightclub is not yet, I think, illegal. Having a drink and a cigarette outside a nightclub is, as yet, not illegal—although it might well be by the end of the Bill. The point about vaping was that young people having a good time will often have a social cigarette, and the vaping vending machine might encourage them to do something less harmful. That was my point, rather than me trying to get them all vaping or forcing them to vape.

The conflation of children and young adults needs to be sorted out. In that sense, although I am sure I did not do remotely as good a job of moving Amendment 16 as the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, would have, we need to be clear that voting in elections is not a technical matter; it is philosophically about saying that someone is an autonomous adult. Therefore, we have a conflict in who we consider children and adults when it comes to health.

I finish by saying I am genuinely, totally disappointed by the attitude to mental health provision and vending machines. Many mental health charities are concerned about this. The age-gating issue is not an issue in mental health hospitals. This idea that there will be hordes of children wandering around accessing vapes from a vending machine—it just seems cruel and inhumane. I do not understand why that exception would not be made. It is true that mental health charities and family groups have suggested that having the odd vending machine in a hospital where people are restricted from leaving would be helpful. It would be kind and compassionate. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Howe (Con)]

My Lords, the first amendment in this group, in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Russell, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Grey-Thompson and Lady Walmsley, shines a spotlight on a fascinating question: when is a reusable vape not a reusable vape? The ban on single-use vapes came into force on 1 June this year, as we have heard. Single-use or disposable vapes are clearly defined in the guidance: they are vapes which are not designed or not intended to be reused. For all the reasons given by the noble Earl, especially the environmental reasons, that ban is soundly based. A reusable vape is one that possesses two key features: it must have a battery which can be recharged and the e-liquid container—that is, the cartridge or the pod—can be either refilled or replaced with a separately sold item, which is where the amendment comes in.

The regulation explicitly states that a device is not refillable or reusable if it has a single-use container, such as a pre-filled pod, that you cannot buy separately and replace. In other words, the law at present tries to capture in the definition of a disposable vape all devices that look and function like a disposable vape. So far, I hope, so clear, but as we have heard from the noble Earl, this leads on the ground to some grey areas of interpretation. A vaping device may be packaged in such a way as to claim that it is intended to work with replaceable pods—and hence that it should be classed as refillable and reusable. In practice, however, that claim can sometimes be a fiction. If, in reality, the replacement pods are not readily available for purchase separately, the device is at risk of falling foul of the legal description of a reusable vape. Enforcement authorities will also check whether the battery is genuinely rechargeable and whether a replaceable heating coil is genuinely replaceable.

More and more reports suggest that in some shops, replacement pods are either not available at all or are in very short supply. Furthermore, so-called reusable devices are priced similarly to the former disposable vapes. The net effect is that the user is tacitly encouraged to throw away the entire device, including the battery and the pod, once they have finished using it. Functionally, the supposed reusable vape has become a disposable vape.

The question therefore is: is there a need to change the definition of what counts as a disposable vape? The noble Earl suggests in his amendment that part of the answer is to ban pre-filled single-use vaping pods. The problem with that suggestion is that some vaping devices properly classified as reusable devices genuinely depend on the supply of replacement single-use pods and are thereby genuinely reusable. Banning all single-use pods would mean removing those types of reusable vaping devices from the market, a step which, on the face of things, appears rather severe.

What, therefore, is to be done? If it is true that many devices currently on the market technically tick the box of being refillable or reusable but in practice behave like disposables, how are we to address that loophole? Is the answer to reframe the regulations, or does the answer lie in intelligent enforcement by local authorities and trading standards? I will be interested to hear the Minister’s reply.

That point links neatly to the second amendment in this group, Amendment 145, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, which I think makes a sensible and pragmatic case, pace the noble Baroness, Lady Carberry, to whom I listened very carefully. In introducing further regulations in this area, we would be well advised to take stock of the prohibitions that have already been introduced and examine their impact in practice. The single-use vape ban that came into force on 1 June provides us with an opportunity to do that. We will no doubt debate at later stages the regulation-making powers designed to control flavours, and so on. I align myself with the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, in wanting to tread cautiously, reflecting on how the single-use ban came in as quickly as it did and whether some unintended consequences have ensued from it.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I am most grateful to noble Lords for the debate on this group of amendments. I will start with Amendment 22, tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Russell, which seeks to ban all “pre-filled single-use vaping pods”.

We understand the concerns being raised about the environmental harms of single-use products. The ban that was introduced by Defra came into force on 1 June, which was not so long ago. Under that ban, vapes must be rechargeable and refillable, while any coil must be replaceable. A vape is not considered refillable if it has a single-use container, such as a pre-filled pod, that you cannot buy separately and replace. Pre-filled pods that can be replaced are therefore not captured, to the points raised by a number of noble Lords, as the ban focuses on tackling the greatest environmental harms. Those are posed by batteries and the surrounding elements contained in the vapes. I acknowledge that vaping creates waste; that is true when users fill up a tank or pod themselves using refill bottles, as the noble Earl described, as well as when pre-filled pods are used.

However, to minimise the environmental impact, since April 2024 it has been compulsory for all businesses selling vapes and vape products, including pods, to provide their customers with a recycling bin and to arrange for these products to be collected by a verified recycling service. I hope that makes a helpful contribution in answering the points raised by the noble Earl, Lord Howe. Since this obligation came into force, some 10,500 vape takeback bins have been introduced into stores. I say to the noble Earl, Lord Russell, that Defra is monitoring the impact of its regulations and will consider the environmental impact of any new vaping regulations brought in using the powers in this Bill.

I hear the concerns about the appeal of single-use pods to children. The Bill contains powers to regulate vape devices. Importantly, we have recently launched a call for evidence that seeks information on the role that different sizes, shapes and features of devices play in the appeal of vaping to young audiences. As part of that, we would welcome evidence on any types of vaping device that particularly appeal to children. I assure the Committee that we will use the evidence to inform future proposals on potential restrictions to devices.

Amendment 145, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, seeks to place additional requirements on the Secretary of State before regulations can be made on contents and flavour. I note that part of these requirements involves evaluating the impacts of the ban on single-use vapes, which came into force on 1 June. Defra is monitoring the impact of its regulations and a post-implementation review will be undertaken in line with statutory obligations.

Turning to the impact of future restrictions on contents and flavour, we recognise that vape flavours are an important consideration for smokers seeking to quit. We will therefore consider the scope of restrictions very carefully to avoid any unintended consequences on smoking rates. I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Carberry for her contribution on this group.

As I said, to support all this, the call for evidence was launched on 8 October. It includes questions about the role of flavours, their contents and the associated risks. I assure noble Lords that before any restrictions are introduced on contents and flavours, we will conduct an impact assessment. We will also undertake a consultation on our policy proposals, and Parliament will have the opportunity to scrutinise the regulations. I hope that this response allows noble Lords not to press their amendments.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her response to my amendment and the other amendment in this group. It has been an interesting group. I also thank the noble Earl for his response to my amendment. He speaks absolute truth: the reality for most people is that, if you have a legal vape with a pod in it and you are minded to not use it as a one-time product but to replace the pod, most shops do not sell them. You cannot get them, they are not available, and the reality is that big tobacco is skirting these regulations and selling only the vapes, not the pods—and, even if you buy the pod, they cost almost the same as buying a new vape.

I recognise the need to review the regulations, which are very recent, and I welcome the fact that Defra is monitoring that, but the real trouble here is that the regulations did not go far enough and there is no clear blue water. They are neither fish nor fowl. It is too easy to skirt these regulations. You just stick a charging point on, stick a pod in it, and you have met the requirements of the regulations, but the reality is that you are still selling a product that is extremely cheap, is used once and thrown away. These matters need further thought.

I asked the Minister whether she could update us on the work of the circular task force. Perhaps that is something we could do before Report. I am happy for that to be done in writing, but more needs to be done. I recognise the call of the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, for more evidence; the Minister has given some reassurance on that. However, I do not support holding up the Bill while we wait for that evidence. With that, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.