The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Care (Baroness Merron) (Lab)
My Lords, I am most grateful for the amendments and also the contributions today. As we know, this group of amendments seeks to change or to place conditions on our smoke-free generation policy. As the noble Lord, Lord Young, and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, both observed, this group is very much at the core of the Bill and I understand the amount of interest that we have had today.
Let me say at the outset that there are a number of areas raised by noble Lords that I will return to in much greater detail, including, as the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, to: verification and retailers in group two; illicit sales and licensing in group 13; tobacco products that are in scope in group 16; and vaping, which is in groups five and six. I look forward to the detail of those debates when we get to them.
Perhaps I could say that I am grateful for the supportive comments on this Bill, which, as we have been reminded throughout, was introduced under the previous Government. Credit goes to them for doing so, in particular for the commitment that was shown by the former Prime Minister, the right honourable Rishi Sunak. I am therefore grateful to my noble friend Lady Carberry, the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, and the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, who helpfully reminded us all that this is a health Bill, and that is what we are here to consider. I also thank the noble Lords, Lord Bethell and Lord Young, and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, all of whom have been supportive of the smoke-free generation principle and have emphasised to the Committee today the amount of public support for that and its role in stopping the cycle of addiction.
I will start with the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Murray of Blidworth, which propose changing the age of sale and proxy purchasing offences. These amendments would make it an offence to sell tobacco products, herbal smoking products or cigarette papers to a person under the age of 21. They would also make it an offence to buy or attempt to buy these products on behalf of anyone under the age of 21.
I am also grateful for the points that were just made by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, on this group of amendments. I cannot fail to emphasise that smoking is indeed the number one preventable cause of death, disability and ill health. It is unique in its harm, because it claims the lives of around 80,000 people a year in the UK, it causes one in four of all cancer deaths in England and up to two-thirds of deaths in current smokers can be attributed to smoking. I am sure that, over the years, noble Lords have heard the Chief Medical Officer’s opinion of the contribution that smoking makes, and that there is no safe level of smoking.
To the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, who spoke about restrictions on adults’ individual autonomy, three-quarters of people who smoke wish that they had never started smoking. The majority want to quit and we want to help them. In my view, smoking is not about freedom of choice; I believe that the tobacco industry takes that choice away through addiction, particularly at a young age. In my view and that of a number of noble Lords whom I have heard speak, there is no liberty if we are speaking of addiction.
Almost every minute, someone is admitted to hospital because of smoking and up to 75,000 GP appointments can be attributed to smoking every single month. There is, as has been referred to, an economic cost. It is estimated to cost our society more than £21 billion a year in England alone, including £3 billion a year in costs to our health and care service. This is far from insignificant.
That is why this Government has made a commitment to create a smoke-free generation, so that anyone born on or after 1 January 2009 will never be legally sold tobacco products. I recall the noble Lords, Lord Scriven and Lord Mackinlay, making a particular reference to the potential contribution of people bringing tobacco back from abroad, but the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, and the noble Lords, Lord Murray and Lord Strathcarron, talked about the Bill prohibiting smoking. Let me make it clear: the smoke-free generation policy is not about criminalising people who smoke. It will not be an offence to possess or consume tobacco, regardless of your age. I can tell the noble Lords, Lord Scriven and Lord Mackinlay, that we are not imposing new restrictions on bringing tobacco back into this country.
I agree with my noble friend Lady Carberry. It is my belief—it is not just a belief, in fact; it is based on experience—that, if we raise the age of sale to 21, to which this group of amendments refers, the tobacco industry will simply change its business model and target older adults; a number of noble Lords referred to this. It will not meet our ambition of a smoke-free UK.
Similarly, the Bill makes proxy purchasing an offence such that anyone over the age of 18 cannot legally purchase tobacco products on behalf of someone born on or after 1 January 2009. The noble Lord, Lord Scriven, and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, asked important questions about the handling of proxy purchasing. I have explained clearly what the offence is and who would be responsible for it. This is about protecting children from the harms of smoking. I reiterate that tobacco is uniquely harmful. As I have said, there is no safe level of smoking; I emphasise that, to my knowledge, no other consumer product is killing two-thirds of its users.
Lord Scriven (LD)
I just want to pursue the issue of proxy purchasing abroad. My question was not about whether people will be able to buy tobacco abroad or whether duty-free limits will cease. My question was: if somebody buys cigarettes in a jurisdiction outside the UK and, when they come back, gives one of them to someone who is not legally entitled to buy them here, will that be an illegal act for the UK citizen who has bought that product abroad?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
The purchasing referred to is within our jurisdiction.
That gives me an opportunity to make a general but important point. This is about changing culture and practice. It is not about everything staying the same. This is not just a message but a practice in terms of what is acceptable and what is not. All noble Lords have seen changes over the years, as I did when I was the Public Health Minister in the previous Labour Government, which have meant that we can speak about this Bill, as we are doing today, in a way that I do not think would have been possible just a few years ago. Tobacco is a deadly addiction, and preventing children starting to smoke is undoubtedly the easiest way to reduce smoking rates. We have to be bold and brave on this, which is why we are committed to creating a smoke-free generation.
My noble friend Lady Carberry mentioned the impact assessment. Modelling shows that creating a smoke-free generation is expected to help reduce smoking rates among 14 to 30 year-olds to near zero by 2050. That is a prize worth having, in my view. Over the next 50 years, it will save tens of thousands of lives, as well as many years lived in ill health with misery, discomfort and pain; it will also avoid up to 130,000 cases of lung cancer, stroke and heart disease. As I say, all of these are, I believe, prizes worth having.
On the impact assessment, a number of noble Lords said that an “age 21” policy would have just the same impact as a smoke-free generation policy. That is not true. We are aware that the tobacco industry has been telling parliamentarians this. I must say, again, that it is incorrect. The published modelling considered different scenarios for the impact of the smoke-free generation policy; it did not model the impact of raising the age of sale to 21. I believe that we have a responsibility to protect future generations from becoming addicted to nicotine; to break the cycle of addiction and disadvantage; and to allow people the chance to live healthier lives.
Lord Scriven (LD)
The Minister must be clear that the report was done by KPMG; it was commissioned by Philip Morris Ltd, but it was not written by that organisation.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I am happy to accept that clarification, but the point that I am driving is still being driven.
I now move on to Amendments 5 and 205 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, which seek to introduce an interim age of sale of 21 at Royal Assent, before the smoke-free generation provisions come into force. Although I appreciate the noble Lord’s ambition in seeking to raise the age of sale for relevant products, which we are discussing, it is my view that these amendments are not necessary; indeed, they would distract from our ambitions. Let me explain why.
Under this Bill, the smoke-free generation will come into force in 2027 when people born on or after 1 January 2009 turn 18. Subject to timetabling, these amendments would mean that any interim age of sale proposed by the noble Lord would be in place for only a year or less. Retailers and enforcement agencies—they are, as many noble Lords have acknowledged, absolutely key to the success of this measure—would not be provided with any time to prepare for the increase to 21. I do not feel, therefore, that a measure such as this one would be helpful; indeed, it would divert resources.
The important matter of communication to the public came up in the debate. The noble Lord’s amendments would confuse all such communications if a different regime were to apply for such a short time.
The noble Lords, Lord Strathcarron and Lord Mackinlay—as well as other noble Lords—referred to the situation in Australia. Let me say this in response: we are not aware of any evidence for the illicit market in Australia being the result of a change in the age of sale. In fact, I am advised that Australia has not changed its age of sale since 1998. I say this to noble Lords: the UK is highly regarded for its robust, comprehensive approach to tackling illicit tobacco. Despite what the tobacco industry may say, implementing tobacco controls does not lead to an increase in the illicit market.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes) (Con)
My Lords, we have another Division, so the Committee is again suspended for 10 minutes.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I hope my responses have been a reassurance to the Committee and that the proposers of these amendments will feel able not to press them.
Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)
May I ask one question? The Minister has not yet touched on the issue of Northern Ireland. Is it right that the Windsor Framework precludes the generational smoking ban coming into effect in Northern Ireland?
Baroness Merron (Lab)
The Bill is UK-wide, as the noble Lord will be aware. It has been developed in partnership with the Scottish Government, the Welsh Government and the Northern Ireland Executive, and the intention is that the measures in the Bill will apply across the UK. I assure him that, in preparing the Bill, the Government considered all their domestic and international obligations and the Bill does comply.
Lord Murray of Blidworth (Con)
I thank the Minister for her answer and her remarks, and all noble Lords who have spoken in this fascinating group. While the amendments themselves are not fascinating—because I proposed them—the speeches of noble Lords have been. They have shown a consistent and deep interest in the topic and a variance of views.
A number of issues remain unanswered, as highlighted by the somewhat roundabout answer on the compatibility of the generational ban with the Windsor Framework. Noble Lords will no doubt still have a number of other questions, in particular in relation to the fact that there is no proposal in the Bill for possession of tobacco to be an offence, nor the smoking of it. Instead, we are told that there is to be an offence of supplying cigarettes and buying them for another. That sort of offence is unworkable and unenforceable, and is effectively window-dressing for a scheme that is highly unlikely to succeed. That perhaps stands as a totem for a problem with the generational ban more generally—it is unworkable and unenforceable and will lead to greater criminality.
We saw from the speeches by Members across the Committee that there is a range of views. Accordingly, I suspect that there is a real risk that, if this Bill were to pass with the generational ban in it, it would be revisited in the same way as occurred in New Zealand when realisation of successful implementation was seen to be too far off and the approach changed. With that, although I reserve the right to reconsider the issue on Report, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, I turn next to my noble friend Lord Lansley’s amendments, which would introduce requirements and provide enabling powers for age-verification technology to be built into vaping devices themselves. This proposal opens up all sorts of interesting avenues of thought. The idea of age-gating devices, using technology to prevent use by those who are underage, is innovative by any standards. As we heard from my noble friend, there is already at least one technology that would facilitate this; like him, I am led by the manufacturers to understand that it has been successfully trialled in the United States.
There could be distinct advantages to such a system: it would close a loophole that rogue sellers currently exploit; it would be more effective as a way of reducing the incidence of underage vaping; it could avoid unpleasant confrontations in retail stores, about which we know retailers are very worried; and, as my noble friend said, it would not affect the way in which adults use vapes as a way of quitting smoking. From the Government’s point of view, an amendment along the lines of my noble friend’s would act as a form of future-proofing the Bill, because it would enable them to regulate the technology in devices or packaging— a power that this Bill does not currently give them. Can the Minister tell us whether the Government have considered systems of this kind and whether officials are aware of developments in this field?
I turn to the amendment in the name of the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, which calls for a review of age-verification methods. The Committee will be grateful to him for raising this idea; it links into my noble friend Lord Lansley’s amendment, but it also speaks to the crucial principle that we must remain properly informed about how these measures will work in practice. This Bill introduces a major new regulatory framework, so it has to be monitored and tested against real-world evidence. Age verification will, as I have said, be central to the Bill’s success, so we need credible and accurate systems to facilitate it. The noble Viscount is therefore right to emphasise the need to engage directly with those on the front line: the retailers who will have to implement these rules every day. Their experience will be one of the best indicators of whether the system is working as intended.
I turn to the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, introduced by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, which seek to place a statutory requirement on businesses to operate age-verification policies in England and Wales. These are well-intentioned amendments, and we share entirely the objective of preventing underage sales. However, as I read it, the Bill as drafted already makes it an offence to sell tobacco or vaping products to anyone below the legal age and provides for a due diligence defence for retailers who have taken all reasonable precautions. In practice, that means having and enforcing an age-verification policy, which is the very outcome that these amendments seek to achieve. The familiar Challenge 25 model is already a well-established part of a range of retailer compliance. So, although we understand and respect the motivation behind these amendments, we do not believe that it is necessary to restate these duties in the Bill.
I welcome the amendment from my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham, which would prohibit the online sale of tobacco products. This raises serious and timely questions around enforcement, fairness and the protection of legitimate retailers. My noble friend put his case very well. Online sales prevent a potential route for illicit or underage trade; as purchasing habits continue to shift online, that risk will surely only increase. We therefore see every benefit in exploring whether a prohibition or stricter control of online sales is appropriate.
If I were to voice a caveat, which I am sure my noble friend would not object to, it would be that we must always ensure that law-abiding retailers—those who comply with the law and operate responsibly—are not disadvantaged. Any new regulation has to be clear, enforceable and fair. The central question here is: has the Minister given any thought to this issue? If so, what capacity do the Government have to enforce a measure such as the one suggested by my noble friend? What mechanisms exist to distinguish legitimate traders from those operating illicitly? Can we control online sales in the way we would like to do? I am sure that the Minister will be the first to recognise that, if unregulated online trade becomes a loophole—indeed, it already is—it will seriously undermine the objectives of the Bill.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, this group of amendments addresses the important topics of age verification and online sales. I am grateful to all noble Lords for not just their contributions but the intent behind these amendments—an intent that I have heard as being presented to assist the Bill. I am grateful for noble Lords’ considerations; I have certainly heard the support given by the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, to a number of these amendments.
I turn to Amendments 24 and 25 tabled by my noble friend Lord Davies of Brixton, who is not able to be in his place. We wish him well. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, for presenting these amendments, which would introduce a requirement for a person carrying on a business selling tobacco, herbal smoking, vaping or nicotine products, in England or Wales, to operate an age-verification policy. I certainly welcome the intention to prevent underage sales and to express a view—as I have heard not just from the noble Baroness but from other noble Lords—about supporting retailers to do the job that we are asking of them. I associate myself with that, but we believe that the Bill’s current provisions are sufficient in this regard.
Lord Lansley (Con)
Is the Minister aware of the retailers—some 3,000 of them—which have written to Ministers to make the point, which emerged in a number of noble Lords’ speeches, about how concerned retailers are about the emphasis upon them denying access to vapes? The use of age-gating technology would substantially relieve those pressures on retailers.
We need to look at what the evidence may be about whether adult smokers who wish to quit by using vapes would be at all deterred by the age-gating technology. To that extent, what worries me is that we may conclude, either through international experience or pilot schemes in this country, that they are not deterred at all. Then suddenly we do not have access to a technology that would deal with illicit sales and proxy purchasing, which the point-of-sale restrictions will not bite upon. I worry that we should have the powers available.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
I understand the point the noble Lord makes. I believe I said that it potentially risks making vapes less accessible. I know that that is not a view that he shares. I also agree that, where there is evidence, we need to be focused on it in the measures we are taking. But the position I have outlined is the case. I will reflect on the comments that he and other noble Lords have made, which I have heard very well. I understand the concerns of retailers and I am very aware of them; that is why we continue to work so closely with their trade associations to overcome difficulties. We do not want retailers to be put in a position where they cannot do the job that they want to do. We will continue in our work in that way.
With that, I hope the noble Lord will feel about to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Moylan (Con)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her concluding remarks and for the sensitive and attentive way that she commented on the debate; she has clearly listened to what noble Lords said and sought to respond within the limits of government policy. As far as my own amendments are concerned, I heard what she said with just a hint of encouragement; there was not a slamming of the door at least, so I look forward to seeing what the Government come forward with on Report.
Concerning the other amendments in this group, I refer to the fact that the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, used the words unintended consequences. The Bill potentially has quite a lot of unintended consequences. Some of them relate to age verification and the role of retailers in the architecture created by the Bill. There are potential lacunae in the Bill.
I simply say that the sooner the Government come forward with draft regulations and a clear idea of what is being required, the happier noble Lords will be and, more importantly, the happier the retailers—including online retailers—will be with the Bill as it goes forward. I hope that the Minister recognises that and feels that the Government can act on it. Perhaps we might even see some draft regulations before the Bill completes its passage through your Lordships’ House. In the meantime, with that hopeful and optimistic wish on my lips, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Baroness Merron (Lab)
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their thoughtful contributions. As they have acknowledged, the Government are taking bold action to create the first smoke-free generation. Our published modelling shows that smoking rates in England among 14 to 30 year-olds could be close to 0% as early as 2050. I make that point particularly in respect of Amendment 4, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Bethell.
I sympathise with the intention of his amendment and with the other amendments we have debated in this group. Let me assure noble Lords that, as is consistent with best practice, we will evaluate this legislation as is appropriate and helpful, such as by monitoring smoking rates over time. We need to ensure that no one is left behind in this smoke-free UK that we seek to create.
However, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, that we do not believe that an outright ban would be the most effective or proportionate way of encouraging current smokers to quit. As he knows, we are taking an evidence-based approach to supporting current smokers to quit and have invested an additional £70 million both last year and this year to support local authority-led stop-smoking services in England. We are continuing our national smoke-free pregnancy incentive scheme to support pregnant smokers to quit, which the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, referred to.
I turn to Amendment 193, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham. I aspire to be as mindful as I know he is of the importance of parliamentary scrutiny of the implementation of legislation. As I mentioned, we will assess the implementation of the Act, which is consistent. For measures implemented by secondary legislation, we will publish post-implementation reviews as appropriate. I can also commit to publishing a report on the Bill before Parliament, in line with our requirements, so we do not feel that it is necessary to outline this in the Bill. There are no plans to develop a report on specific targets or to publish a road map at this time, because we are focusing our attention and total ambition on making sure that we can deliver the Bill and work on the regulations that will follow.
The noble Lord, Lord Young, asked about a retained target to have a smoke-free England by 2030. We are going even further than the Smokefree 2030 target. As I have mentioned throughout, our ambition is for a smoke-free UK and creating the first smoke-free generation.
Finally, I turn to Amendment 199, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover. The Government are committed to ensuring the successful implementation of all measures in the Bill, as I am sure she appreciates. We will ensure that the public, retailers, enforcement bodies and other relevant groups are aware of all measures and their associated commencement date. We will publish clear guidance in advance to aid a smooth transition. The noble Baroness’s amendment also seeks to include measures to raise public awareness. That is absolutely key, as the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, also said.
I say to noble Lords that we run successful public health campaigns to support smokers to quit and to inform the public on the harms of tobacco. Indeed, this month is our annual Stoptober campaign. I therefore reassure the noble Baroness that my officials are working to ensure that everyone will be informed about the smoke-free generation policy and the benefits of quitting and continuing that route.
To the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, about social media campaigns, earlier this year we launched the first ever campaign to inform young people about the health risks of vaping. The campaign featured on social media and paid media used by young people, and the noble Baroness will be delighted to know that that included working with trusted influencers to speak directly to—how might I put it?—a younger audience.
On the comments by the noble Lord, Lord Harlech, the matter of which tobacco products are in scope will be covered in detail in group 16, and I look forward to discussing that.
On the basis of those responses, I hope the noble Lords will feel able not to press their amendments.
Lord Bethell (Con)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her concluding remarks, which were thoughtful, detailed and thorough. I congratulate the Government on pursuing these measures with the energy and determination that Rishi Sunak brought to it when he was Prime Minister. They still enjoy widespread support in all corners of the House—not unanimous support, but widespread.
I am grateful for the Minister’s commitment to the £70 million cessation budget and to the smoke-free pregnancy programme that my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham mentioned. I am grateful for her commitment to evaluation and assessment and to a post-implementation review. These are standard. I hope very much that she has taken on board the comments about the need for a clear road map and for accountability, and I am grateful for everything that she said on that.
I also emphasise the importance of a public health campaign—whether it should use influencers and Kardashians, I am not quite sure—and I pay tribute to the DHSC and the NHS for their public health campaigns, which have proved to be effective: they are good curators of the nation’s health when it comes to campaigning. I emphasise to the Minister the critical importance of getting both the guidance and the communication right. We do not legislate in order to communicate, but the communication of good legislation is very important.
I also stand by the Minister’s comments on cigars and other tobacco products. I thought my noble friend Lord Harlech made extremely clear and persuasive points. I totally take on board everything he said on my 2040 extinction proposal and would very much like to talk to him about that in future, and how it might be shaped.
With that in mind, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.