Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Baroness Berridge Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 19th September 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, sadness and sympathy are palpable in our inboxes and in this Chamber. Your Lordships’ House is a sobering scene. I begin with what is missing from the Bill—the letter “S”, the plural. As the noble Baroness, Lady Berger, has outlined, there is no mention of family or relatives. Its premise is the western Enlightenment view of the self and individual autonomy, which is alien to parts of the UK, let alone to some of our ethnic minority communities. On the latter, I can put it no better than an article by Chine McDonald, director of Theos, in a post on 26 November last year:

“Many people will be familiar with the southern African term ‘Ubuntu’, which means ‘I am because you are’. In my own community—the Igbo ethnic group of south-eastern Nigeria—there is the concept of the Umunna: the fraternity, the clan or the community … there is a strong sense of existing not as an individual, but knitted into a family … The idea that someone who is facing death might not want to be a burden … is anathema to West African tradition. You can’t be a burden because you are not a separate entity. You’re part of a whole”.


Anyone who has visited the north-east of England might attest to a similar “thick” community.

I heard the compelling story of someone with PTSD after watching the huge syringes of drugs go into their father. There is no duty under the Bill to warn them. What about the effect on you of witnessing the failed process that the Bill outlines? Or are they just not allowed to be there?

Another “S” is “subtle”. Many noble Lords have spoken of subtle pressure, and pressure and coercion are used in the Bill, by relatives, which can be hard to detect. There is another wrong premise in the Bill: that pressure comes from a person. If you join a Facebook networking group, say, for fellow sufferers of the same disease, the algorithms can alter the content offered to you, or comments by others can cause you to idealise the thought of assisted dying, create a reward pathway in your brain and even, according to studies, change the network and structure of your brain. Thus, in fact, the coercion could come from an unquantifiable force, or even an algorithm, not a person. How can medical practitioners ever know if you have been pressurised like this? Although this research field is still in its infancy, could we, in 10 years, be reporting that deaths were actually through coercion on social networking? Even today, a family is suing OpenAI, saying that ChatGPT encouraged their son to take his life. Other studies are now reporting that people are more likely to turn to social media for medical health reports than to qualified physicians. This is the world in which we are legislating. We know that this can influence elections; how can it not influence these decisions?

The clause to prohibit advertising is insufficient. This Bill is for an analogue age, not one on the cusp of AI. Although I support the suggestion of the noble Baroness, Lady Berger, for a Select Committee—and I hope I am not throwing a spanner into the timetable—I do not think we can ignore these issues. I am an optimist, and I hope that the six-month timeline in the Bill—again, because we are on the cusp of medical breakthroughs—will in the future become impossible. Anyone who knows parents of children with cystic fibrosis knows that the new-gen drugs are transformative. How will clinicians advise when they do not know what breakthroughs we are on the cusp of?

My final “S” is single women, as the noble Lord, Lord Truscott, talked about. A meta-analysis of the best quality of Oregon between 1998 and 2018 says that it witnessed an increase of 50% in voluntary suicide of older women over the age of 65. We know that suicide can be contagious. Are we opening up that Pandora’s box again? I agree with the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London about voting on the principle. This is leadership from the Church of England, and the feedback to me is very welcome. I do not view this as taking your own life; I view it as giving your life back to God. This is a sacred act, and not one the state should provide.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Baroness Berridge Excerpts

Committee stage
Friday 14th November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Markham (Con)]

With due respect, I must say, as one of the committee members, that that point was put forward on a number of occasions. Unfortunately, there was a majority of people in the committee of seven to five against, by the way the nomination process worked, so it was the feeling of those members not to invite terminally ill people to speak. The minority of us who were in favour of the Bill tried on a number of occasions to hear them, but that was not allowed.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, I do not think it is helpful to your Lordships’ House to be going into discussions that included private discussions. The Motion that the House passed did not suggest that. Noble Lords will also know that there are ethical concerns about calling people who are so vulnerable.

[Baroness in Waiting/Government Whip (Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent) (Lab)]

I remind your Lordships of the conventions of the House. An intervention on an intervention is not ideal. If we can follow normal conventions, that will be helpful.

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[Baroness Blackstone (Lab)]

My Lords, I agree entirely with what the noble Lord, Lord Markham, just said. We have a tried and tested way of measuring people’s capacity, but we do not have a single tried and tested way of measuring people’s ability. That is a very broad concept, and anybody who has worked in education at any level will say with absolute certainty that it would be unwise to replace what is currently in this Bill with “ability”. There is no definition of it—it can cover a vast variety of different kinds of ability—and finding an adequate test could take years.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interest: I received a personal donation from Dr Etherton to fund research support. Normally, I would agree with the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, in relation both to legal terms that are not defined and to moving to something that is ill defined; he will find, in the later groups of amendments with which I am involved, that this is a key concern that I have had.

The amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, talks about “ability”. I have struggled with that, for the same reasons as the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, but I have been persuaded that there is something in this. I served on your Lordships’ Select Committee. One of the benefits of serving on those Select Committees is that you sometimes get to meet your hero. Professor Sir Chris Whitty sat in front of us as the highest expert in the land, but when he gave evidence to the Commons Select Committee he had to write afterwards because he had misunderstood something and had to clarify it. It was after the Third Reading vote, I think. His letter was put in our pack and made public; I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, for nodding. One has to consider the fact that even he got it wrong.

We also heard from Professor Alex Ruck Keene, who is an honorary KC, who trains practitioners in how to apply this test. We heard that, although it might be common and used up and down the land, there is a considerable body of evidence that practitioners are struggling to apply it in what he calls the 15% of cases that are complex. I think this is the kind of case outlined by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss.

The committee’s time constraints meant that I was not able to put that evidence to Professor Sir Chris Whitty, as Members’ questions are limited, but I put the following to him because it is sometimes helpful for us to think about the practical realities. The MCA would bring with it its other parts, not just the capacity test. There is a presumption if, for example, an 18 and a half year-old who has had a life-limiting condition all their life is being assessed and the doctor doubts whether that young person has capacity that they have capacity—as far as I understand Professor Ruck Keene. We have to take that evidence into account. There has been some discussion about the royal colleges, but as political parties we know that some people will peel off from the corporate view. We need to take seriously that the royal colleges are not supportive of the Bill. While Professor Sir Chris Whitty might—

[Baroness Blackstone (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as chair of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists. I have followed what the different royal colleges are saying and it is not true to say that they are opposed to the Bill in general. Most of them are neutral, one or two are in favour and one or two are against.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

As people around me are saying, I do not think I said that. They are neutral. The royal colleges have said that they have problems with the Bill, but they have been neutral on the principle, save for the Royal College of General Practitioners. I am sorry; I stand corrected on that. They are neutral, as is the Association for Palliative Medicine, which is not a royal college.

When one looks at the evidence that we took, of course individuals from within that group would come along whom we had to call. It was right that we did that, but one looks at a corporate view. I enormously respect Professor Sir Chris Whitty, but I heard his evidence on this and he was not the highest expert in the land. He was humble enough to write to correct himself, as he had misunderstood the Mental Capacity Act when he gave evidence in the Commons.

[Lord Blencathra (Con)]

My Lords, we should all be grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, for bringing this matter before the Committee, but also to my noble friend Lord Harper, who has highlighted some of the deficiencies in in the Mental Capacity Act. Yes, it may be tried and tested in its current usage but, as we heard from many sides of the Committee, it may be inadequate for dealing with death issues.

I was going to speak in support of Amendment 2, but I might also be willing to support the potential oral amendment from my noble friend Lord Deben. When considering important decisions, particularly in the context of healthcare, it is crucial to understand the distinction between capacity and ability. This is especially relevant for terminally ill patients, as questions about decision-making may arise on treatment options, advance directives and legal matters.

I believe that we should change references from “capacity” to “ability” when discussing decision-making for terminally ill patients. The reason for this change is to ensure clarity and accuracy in describing a person’s actual situation. We should not be afraid to bring in a new word if it is more relevant than “capacity”. Although “capacity” is a legal and clinical term for specific criteria, “ability” is a broader term that may better reflect the practical realities and nuances of an individual’s situation. Using “ability” can help to avoid misunderstandings and ensure that patients are supported in ways that are appropriate to their unique circumstances.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Baroness Berridge Excerpts

Committee stage
Friday 21st November 2025 Lords Chamber

Moreover, doctors have reported how difficult it is to detect coercion, encouragement and undue influence. Just asking a person whether they are subject to undue influence or coercion is not enough—the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, has dealt with this—as they may be afraid to say that they are. One of the greatest difficulties is identifying where there has been coercion. Doctors are generally not trained to do this, yet, under the Bill, they are the ones who have to decide, without any context or supplementary information, that a person is free from such pressures.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 48, to which I have added my name, and to my Amendment 846. I added my name to Amendment 48 to explore whether pressure can emanate from a non-human and non-corporate source. As I mentioned at Second Reading, so much pressure nowadays, particularly for young people, comes from the internet, video games, social networking, TikTok and influencers. It is not only the use by people of online devices as a mechanism to pressure another person; it can also be pressure from algorithms themselves, without a human intervening.

In addition to the two prosecutions of OpenAI for ChatGPT allegedly encouraging children to take their own lives, those with chronic illnesses have testified to me that when, for instance, Facebook realises from conversations that you have a chronic illness, it changes your feed from the promotion of group chats and adverts that are positive to negative content about your treatments, whether you can live with it, and even suggesting going to Switzerland. Is it the Bill sponsors’ intention that, when the medical practitioner is verifying under the terms of Clause 10(2)(h), it is not this type of pressure? Are the internet service providers covered by Clause 1, as there is no definition of “person” in the Bill? As I said in Committee, the Bill is designed for an analogue age and not one on the cusp of AI.

Turning to statutory guidance and Amendment 846, the next question is not who applies pressure but what we mean by “pressure”. The former Chief Coroner, Thomas Teague, came to our Select Committee and we asked whether we need to define pressure. He said:

“If it forms part of the ingredients of a statutory offence, then it might be necessary. Frankly, I’m not sure that it would because, for such a common word in the English language, the fundamental principle that lawyers apply is to take the dictionary definition”.


So, last night, I looked in Collins English Dictionary, which defines “pressure” as

“someone … trying to persuade or force”

someone to do something. What a low bar that is that has to be detected. It is a good job that the law will not be retrospective and that there is parliamentary privilege; otherwise, the attempts by the noble and Learned Lord, Lord Falconer, to try to persuade us of the merits of the assisted dying Bill might actually be covered by his own Bill.

I asked the noble and learned Lord in Select Committee whether a consultation is necessary when a new concept is introduced into criminal law. His reply was, “Sometimes yes, sometimes no”. I think that catching mere persuasion means that this is a “sometimes yes” moment, particularly—as has been outlined by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan—as this creates the basis for a criminal offence in Clause 34 that can mean imprisonment for life. The noble and learned Lord will not be surprised to hear that later in Committee we will return to his evidence to the Select Committee in relation to Clause 34.

In the Select Committee we asked various professionals what they thought “pressure” meant. Dr Suzy Lishman of the Royal College of Pathologists, who is opposed to the Bill, said:

“I would understand pressure to mean encouragement to go down a particular route, and coercion to involve some force or threat. I have had no training whatsoever in either of these”.


The Royal College of Psychiatrists’ Dr Annabel Price said:

“It would need to be differentiated from coercion in terms of its definition. Coercion would be the application of force, threat”—

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

I would like to ask the noble Baroness whether the Select Committee asked anybody who is terminally ill what they thought “persuasion” or “coercion” might mean?

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

We covered that matter on the first day in Committee.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

The noble Baroness is not answering my question. The truth is, of course, that the committee did not ask anybody who is terminally ill what their view was about any of this.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

I will just reply to the noble Baroness, then, that within the Bill that is not necessary. I have outlined Clause 10. This applies to the people who are verifying in the process, not to the individual. It was not in the Motion your Lordships’ House approved that that evidence should be taken.

To continue, Dr Annabel Price said:

“Pressure has a broader definition of perhaps strong encouragement, expectation or the worry of letting somebody down”.


The noble Lord, Lord Patel, joined in this mini focus group and asked:

“If I were to use the word ‘pressure’ and if I were to use the word ‘coercion’, how would you interpret the two?”


Professor Mumtaz Patel from the Royal College of Physicians—again opposed to the Bill—said, “It is grey”.

Amendment 846 also reflects the view of the Law Society, which is neutral on assisted dying but opposed to the Bill. Kirsty Stuart said:

“I think it is really difficult because there is not a definition at the moment … in the Bill”.


That is why Amendment 846 is based on the statutory guidance principle from the offence of coercion under the Serious Crime Act. I note that the Home Office has recently had to issue 91 pages of statutory guidance on that offence. It seems the courts are struggling with it.

Even if Thomas Teague is right that you look at the dictionary, are we talking about economic pressure, emotional pressure, financial pressure, spiritual pressure, reputational pressure, internalised or externalised pressure, or pressure of circumstances—for instance, no one provides you with a hospice bed? As Dr Suzanne Kite, from the Association for Palliative Medicine, said:

“We know that there are pressures of, ‘Can we afford the electricity for the oxygen supply?’ … Yes, these are issues”


that people face “on a daily basis”. The Bill is silent as to what kind of pressure is meant.

To move from individual sources of pressure, there can also be group sources of pressure. Alasdair Henderson, from the Equality and Human Rights Commission, spoke to the Select Committee about

“this wider issue of coercion or pressure at a societal level or an attitudinal level”

and

“the broader trends or cultural issues”.

He said that

“pressure is not always applied directly by another individual, but can result from attitudinal barriers, particularly around disability, and lack of services and support in society as a whole”.

Could pressure come from NICE refusing you, on value-for-money grounds, the drug that you think will wipe out your metastasised cancer? Indeed, the pressure could emanate from the Chancellor of the Exchequer in her Budget, or from the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, to encourage vulnerable people to take assisted dying, a matter I put to the Government Minister, Stephen Kinnock.

Caroline Abrahams of Age UK said:

“The context again for this is a system in which adult safeguarding is under acute pressure because local government is under such acute pressure”.


The British Association of Social Workers also said that unless these statutory services

“are adequately resourced, that may bend people’s decision a certain way … much of social care is self-funded now. If you are poor and you cannot have access to those personal resources, even more pressure is applied to you”.

I look to the noble Lord, Lord Pannick: how does a medical practitioner sign to say that this kind of pressure—from culture, society or attitudes, or lack of statutory services—is not being put on the individual?

There was unanimity in the Select Committee when we started asking the professionals about training. I said that pressure

“is not defined in the Bill, so I am afraid I cannot help you. We have no definition in the Bill. You are going to need training, though, in pressure. Has any of you received any training like that?”

Professor Nicola Ranger from the Royal College of Nursing, Professor Mumtaz Patel of the Royal College of Physicians and Dr Michael Mulholland from the Royal College of GPs all said no. So we now have additional costs added to the Bill, because we have to devise training in pressure and deliver it to a whole raft of professionals, care staff, et cetera, so that they understand it, in particular bearing in mind the vulnerability to criminal prosecution that exists in Clause 34.

I am going to give the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, this opportunity to shorten Committee proceedings. Deleting “pressure” from the Bill, when it has not been consulted on and has not been subject to pre-legislative scrutiny, would aid the Committee in evaluating the Bill.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

My Lords, in a group such as this, which has so many conceptual, linguistic and semantic alternatives on offer, it is very difficult to see how a Committee stage such as this is going to help very much in determining a final solution to the matters under consideration. Therefore, it could become very tempting to enter into the nice and easy solution suggested by my noble friend Lord Pannick, to the effect that the Bill is quite enough and provides sufficient protection. It is right to say that the Bill certainly seeks to provide sufficient protection, and I do not in any way attribute anything other than good motives to those who sponsor the Bill, in particular the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer.

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[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

I will just follow up my noble friend’s remarks. He is a noble friend; I campaigned for him several times in his constituency when he was an MP, and I will remain a friend of his, I hope. I want very quickly to follow up on his remarks about what we might call the “Pannick paradox” between the decision to ask for an assisted death and the decision to refuse any further medication or help that will continue your life for a short time. My noble friend is right. They are not the same: a decision to ask for a death when you know that death is inevitable, and one simply to deny any further help or sustenance, with starving yourself to death the only way of achieving that end, are very different. The difference is that if someone is able to ask for a calm, assisted death, they will die with dignity and not in squalor, having forced the system to cut off any hope of further life. My noble friend knows that I do not agree with him on this, but I absolutely believe he is right in saying that there is a fundamental distinction. That is one reason why I support the Bill.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

It might help noble Lords to know that we are being followed on Twitter. This issue—I am aiming to save time—of the Pannick dilemma has been commented on by Philip Murray, who is a law lecturer at Robinson College in Cambridge. He said the following, and we may wish to seek his advice:

“I find it astonishing that various Lords”—


forgive me for the embarrassment—

“including those who should know better (Lord Pannick …), keep conflating withdrawal of treatment and assisted suicide. The act/omission distinction has underpinned morality and law for millennia”.

I hope that either of the noble Lords, Lord Pannick or Lord Dobbs, will reach out to this gentleman to aid all noble Lords so we will not spend any further time on that dilemma.

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

My Lords, may I just say that other views are available in the legal community, including among many distinguished judges who I will not name. There are many law reports that question this distinction, not least for the reasons that have just been given.

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On Amendment 49—

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, my name is on the amendment that the noble and learned Lord has just mentioned. This was also from Second Reading. There are loads of people signing forms saying that coercion or pressure has not happened. What is the situation with the internet? What is the situation for young people? We are failing young people if we do not make clear how that practitioner is going to know. Young people are pressured through non-human means nowadays.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

The Bill makes it absolutely clear that it must be your own decision. Let us suppose that your views of the world are affected by the internet and that you are ill and an organisation is urging you to commit suicide, that organisation should be liable if that happens.

In Amendment 49, the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, wants “person” to include a body corporate or an organisation in relation to pressure. If an organisation or a body corporate is putting pressure on a group of people or on individuals and that makes them do it—this is putting it crudely, but if an organisation says, “Do have an assisted death; it is the right thing for everybody or for you”—that should be covered by the Bill. The noble Baroness adverted to how “person” can generally include both corporate person and human person, but I can talk to her separately about that to make sure that it is covered.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Baroness Berridge Excerpts

Committee stage
Friday 5th December 2025 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Leicester]

My Lords, I too rise to support this amendment with some caution, noting that these are deep waters. I hope that noble Lords will forgive me for pointing out the blindingly obvious: as I look around your Lordships’ Committee, I do not see any 18 to 25 year-olds on these Benches, and the voices of children and young people are vital in such a debate.

The role of Children’s Commissioner was created to ensure that the voices of children and young people were heard within your Lordships’ House and the other place. Therefore, when the Children’s Commissioner, whom I know personally, who has visited my diocese and whom I have seen at work listening to children and young people—she and her staff are superbly skilled at that work—urges us to be cautious, I believe we should listen. I therefore urge consideration of that note of caution.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 4, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Berger, to which I added my name.

As well as this Bill, the Private Member’s Bill in the name of the noble and learned Lord has, as a requirement, the safeguard of a six-month prognosis. When one looks at this in relation to those over 18, I am interested in what pre-legislative scrutiny or consultation the noble and learned Lord, or the other Bill’s sponsor in the other place, had on the science. I am not a scientist, but I have a researcher who is a scientist, so I took advice on how to treat the science when one speaks in a debate with those who have great eminence, such as the noble Lord, Lord Winston. Having looked at that, I believe it is relevant to the age limit in the Bill. There will be specific types of vulnerability for certain groups of young people—as the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, outlined—but those will be discussed in later groups.

According to peer-reviewed studies—which, I am told, are the best way to begin to treat the science—the brain reaches its full size physically at the age of 14, but the neural circuitry does not develop to enable enhanced decision-making and cognitive function until the age of 25. I am also informed—I am sorry to disagree with my noble friend Lord Sandhurst—that the study that was quoted by the BBC is viewed as an outlier from the peer-reviewed studies that we have in this regard.

When looking at terminally ill adolescents—I am grateful to the noble Lady, Lady Hayter, for reminding us of that—we also need to consider that there are psychological reports that they may have an unrealised concept of the finality of death, which I think is relevant to what the noble Lord, Lord Moore, said. As the Children’s Commissioner stated in her letter of evidence to the Select Committee:

“Compelling arguments have … been made about the additional difficulties present in diagnosing young people in this age group, and predicting with certainty the chance of living for six months”.


Of course, if that is wrong, it could lead to an earlier, untimely death, if assisted dying is made available to them.

I was really intrigued by that statement and sought to look at the scientific evidence. I have found peer-reviewed papers, in particular one from the University of Manchester reporting historical data that finds that, even with advanced diseases such as thyroid cancer, this group has a better rate of survival than adults over the age of 25. The report outlines that that may be because a more efficacious response to treatment, as a younger body may be better able to receive it; it may be due to an elevated sense of hope, which is often reported in young adults; or it might be because such a devastating diagnosis at that age is hard to fathom, as it is not a disease they think would ever happen to them. That sense of hope possibly contributes to a positive impact on the immune system, thus resulting in a better response to the administered medication.

The second reason I outline is that—as the noble Lady, Lady Hollins, briefly alluded to—there is a significantly increasing life expectancy in terminally ill young adults due to the incredible advances that we are beginning to see in treatments such as advanced immune therapies and personalised genotype-directed treatment. Both have seen increased survival rates of up to five years in up to 80% of patients with terminal cancers. Although we will come to the matter of young people and the EHCP in a later group, I think it is right to reiterate that we have policies that treat those between 18 and 25 differently in certain situations.

The Children’s Commissioner also brought to our attention that young people already often fall into a gap at the ages of 16 and 17. Some community palliative care services end at 16, and then others do not begin at 18. That makes me wonder whether we need to think more about their access to specialist palliative care in this Bill in later groups.

Can the noble and learned Lord outline what process there was, before both Bills were put together, to look into the scientific evidence? It seems to me that the assumption in both Bills is that a six-month prognosis affects or applies to all groups of the population in the same way. Is that indeed the case? We know from evidence from the European Society for Medical Oncology’s Professor Stone that a six-month prognosis is inaccurate in over half of cases. Is six months the right level to use—that might be a connected change—or is 18 too young an age? I would be grateful to know whether the noble and learned Lord has already engaged with this science. Perhaps with the assistance of the noble Lord, Lord Winston, this, I think, would be a valuable way of looking at the evidence behind Amendment 4.

[Lord Weir of Ballyholme (DUP)]

My Lords, this is an important group of amendments, particularly to those of us who have an interest in young people. It is very important that we have heard today a range of opinions on where age eligibility should lie. When dealing with age eligibility in this Bill, it seems that there are three critical questions. First, at the lower end of eligibility, should there be an age limit below which it is impossible to access assisted dying? Secondly, if it is agreed that there should be an age limit, is 18 the appropriate age? Thirdly, as has been posed by the two sets of amendments in this group, if we feel that 18 is too young an age, what is the appropriate age that we should set?

On the first issue, I am glad to say that at least the proponents of this Bill have not gone down the line—as has been argued, I think, by some lobbyists and has been the case, for example, in Belgium and the Netherlands—that there should be no lower age limit. I welcome the fact that this seems to be accepted by the proponents of this Bill. However, I reiterate the question that has been asked—I look forward to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, summing up in relation to this—about what assurances we could have if we ended up in the position where the eligibility is at 18. What confidence could we have that that will be stuck to?

On the second issue of whether 18 is the appropriate level, I cannot claim any particular knowledge or expertise on neuroscience, but I have a lot of experience having served twice as Education Minister in Northern Ireland. I am sure that, if you speak to anyone who has served in that sort of role in any of the jurisdictions, they will say that the greatest privilege you have in that ministerial capacity is meeting young people on a day-to-day basis and talking to them about their lived experiences. It is a great joy to meet the many very healthy, confident young people who can look forward to a lifetime ahead of them. However, it is also the case that you come across a number of young people who are very vulnerable, who have extremely life-limiting conditions and who have a terminal illness.

In my experience, the families of those young people reorientate themselves through their love, so that the focus of almost all family activity is on that young person. The by-product of that, at times, can be that some of those young people feel themselves to be a burden on their family: that they are disrupting everything that their family does and not allowing their family to lead a normal life. They sometimes feel a sense of guilt.

While I am sure that we will come on to this in later stages, I note the concern about what might be described as “self-imposed coercion”: people coming to the conclusion that they will be doing a service to their loved ones by going down the route of assisted suicide. We know that concerns have been raised in relation to the disabled and the elderly feeling under a particular level of pressure, but it would be naive to believe that young people in that position do not also feel themselves to be pressurised. I do not want us to create a situation where a young person, in the run-up to their 18th birthday, asks, “How can I facilitate my family by taking that ultimate step?” So, on the issue of maturity, I contend that 18 is perhaps not the right boundary point in this case.

Finally, there are competing amendments about whether it should be 21 or 25. While I came to this in a fairly agnostic manner, I have been persuaded much more towards the position of the noble Baroness, Lady Berger. I am also persuaded in many ways by the words of the Children’s Commissioner. I have considerable experience of dealing with both the Children’s Commissioner in England and her opposite number in Northern Ireland, and I believe that the commissioners tend to have a particular worldview: when they look towards young people, they want the world to be permissive towards them. They are progressive in their nature—and sometimes, I have to confess, they may be a little too progressive on certain subjects for my own liking. But they always look, where possible, to extend rights to children that are normally given to adults. So, when we see a situation such as this, where a Children’s Commissioner is, in effect, saying, “Be very careful in relation to the law. Do not extend this to younger people between 18 and 25”, we need to pay cognisance to that.

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[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

Just to clarify my position, I was responding to the debate which gave rise to real concerns about the age. I understood the noble Baronesses, Lady Cass and Lady Finlay, to say that perhaps a way forward would be to see whether there were additional safeguards from 18 to 25. That would involve me having a discussion with them and, if they were satisfied that there were additional safeguards and that they thought the age of 18 was right, that would obviously have an effect on me. If they put other arguments, I would obviously take them on board as well. My experience of the House is that, if one sees a way forward, before one continues making the same arguments as before, one sees whether a compromise that sensible Members of the House think would be enough works and whether it could attract support on Report. That was what I was thinking.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

May I draw the attention of the noble and learned Lord to the fact that the amendments I have laid in relation to EHCPs and additional assessment criteria are currently in group 7? If he has that meeting and that compromise might be available, that may enable me to withdraw some amendments.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I very much welcome that suggestion. I also welcome the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Harper, who, as I understand it, is saying that we should also look at the clinical diagnosis of people. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, also raised that point. I am more than happy to include both those things, and if they both want to come, I would welcome them.

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[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, I have some questions for the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, about his Amendment 6, because my concerns also relate to the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Moylan. It does not seem to reflect the way that seriously ill children behave.

I have looked after children dying of malignancies. They knew that they were dying and asked really straightforward questions. They would ask about how they would die and would want to have in-depth conversations. I recall one little boy who asked me if he could play football in heaven, after another little boy in an adjacent room had died a few weeks earlier. These children asked for explicit details and wanted to have lots of conversations. Another one said that he would die after his goldfish died. Sadly, that was prophetic and when he was close to death, he asked his divorced parents to come in and promise to look after his siblings together. These children know each other; they want to ask questions and need to have them answered.

I am not sure how, with Amendment 6, doctors are meant to respond to these children when they ask questions. At the moment, you respond gently and openly, and explore with them what they are really asking about in an age-appropriate way. I have a concern that this could make people feel risk-averse about having open communication with these children, and let children remain isolated with their fears. They hear about assisted dying on the news and in the media; the ethical aspects are part of the senior school curriculum in some areas. I am really concerned that Amendment 6, while well-intentioned, and the adjacent amendments, might actually make the day-to-day looking after of these children as they are dying more difficult.

Amendments 170 and 405 seem to lower the threshold for communication. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, for pointing out that whenever an interpreter is used they must be a registered public service interpreter, to avoid the poor communication scenario which I referred to last week. Speech and language therapists are essential, so can the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, explain how with one would judge “effective”, as is listed in his amendment, and assess “reasonable steps”? These seem very subjective and I am not sure how they would be monitored. Others have spoken to the other amendments, so I look forward to hearing the comments from the noble and learned Lord.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

I will speak briefly to raise attention to Amendment 170, which has recently been added to the group. In an effort to short-circuit, we will come to the issues of interpreters much later on.

I have laid Amendment 174, which quite simply says that an interpreter must be over the age of 18. It will not surprise the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, that I have a whole cluster of amendments to deal with what may be inadvertent situations that are not covered off for under-18s. I invite the noble and learned Lord to look at that amendment to see whether it can swiftly be clarified and dealt with, along with the others that relate to children.

In this group, I will also speak to the noble and learned Lord’s Amendments 332, 417 to 419 and 425, which I believe are a genuine attempt to deal with the report from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. It advised the sponsor of the Bill to remove the Clause 15 power and to align the other clauses, because there were inconsistent wordings. I want to reiterate that reassurance was given in the other place that there would be one second opinion by another doctor. This goes back to the noble and learned Lord’s opener: when we talk about “cannot”, we need to cover that off in the Bill. The Bill was covering death or illness—obvious situations where the function cannot be fulfilled—but “will not” is obviously a different scenario.

Unless the doctor is unable to perform that function, for whatever reason, if we do not stick to the word “cannot”, we will potentially get the opening up of the ability to choose a number of doctors and maybe having some kind of discussion. Then they may not want to act, which may be for the reasons outlined by the noble Baronesses, Lady O’Loan and Lady Goudie. Then we might have a number of assessments or discussions that do not become a formal refusal which is then documented. I do not think the noble and learned Lord intended, by changing Clauses 10 and 13, to broaden the scenarios where a further referral could be made to any situation in which the doctor is unable or unwilling to continue; I think this has happened inadvertently. I know that my noble friend Lord Harper has laid amendments regarding particular scenarios beyond “death” and “illness”, and I think that the Minister in the other place, Mr Kinnock, mentioned family circumstances or emergencies. Perhaps the way ahead here—I am trying to pre-empt a further group, when we get to it—is that we could have a clause that outlines more circumstances than the two that are in the Bill.

Obviously, as lawyers, we know we can never cover every circumstance that would justify a doctor saying, “I can’t do this function any more”, not “I won’t”. Perhaps there could be a system whereby a doctor who wants to withdraw, and his or her circumstances are not in the paragraphs, should have to go to the panel and say, “I’ve got a situation that isn’t within the framework of the legislation, but I can’t for these reasons perform that function”. So I hope the noble and learned Lord will not move those amendments, as he has promised, but we could come back to this in the group that deals substantively with exploring scenarios where the doctor cannot act.

[Lord Ashcombe (Con)]

My Lords, I wish to express my particular concern regarding Amendment 416. The question I must put to the noble and learned Lord is, why should an independent doctor tasked with providing a second opinion not have access to the notes of the first? Is the intention to prevent any influence on the second medical professional, even when the first has identified grounds for dissatisfaction and declined to proceed with the possibility of assisted death?

We have already engaged in lengthy debates on the crucial matters of decision-making capacity and the risks of coercion. What if the first independent doctor had uncovered evidence of precisely such concerns? This situation inevitably calls to mind the troubling prospect that a patient, or indeed another party exerting influence upon that patient, might seek out a doctor willing to endorse the view of the co-ordinating physician. Surely the medical notes generated throughout the process are of fundamental importance to all involved in the medical profession, and it cannot be right that they should be withheld from any participant in the decision-making claim. I therefore earnestly ask the noble and learned Lord to give me his thoughts on this, as I do not really consider this to be a straight drafting issue.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Baroness Berridge Excerpts

Committee stage
Friday 12th December 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness O’Loan (CB)]

I thank the noble Baroness for that helpful intervention, but we do not know what the outcome of that meeting will be. I think I have the right to make my remarks.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak to the amendments in this group. I did not table one in my name about a group of people who are also subject to deprivation of liberty safeguards. I am pleased to hear the noble and learned Lord repeat his offer of a meeting, which was made last Friday. I was disappointed not to receive an invitation to a group meeting to discuss the various groups of vulnerable people who may need additional conditions. Had there been such a meeting, I would not be taking up time today or on the later group, where I had offered to withdraw amendments had a meeting taken place.

There is another group of people under deprivation of liberty safeguards who are not under the Mental Capacity Act. These are young people who are under the High Court jurisdiction of deprivation of liberty safeguards—called High Court DoLS. I thank the President of the Family Division for ensuring that there is research available on this group and the Children’s Commissioner, who has visited very many of them. Those young people are so troubled that their liberty needs to be restricted, but they cannot currently be detained under Section 25 of the Children Act in a secure children’s home. That was for a variety of reasons. One was that we ran out of places, but another was that some of them were in such a situation that they could not even bear a communal secure environment like that.

I did not table an amendment also because under the Children’s Wellbeing and Schools Bill these young people will possibly be brought under the statutory jurisdiction of the Children Act, though it would not be all of them. There were 1,280 applications made last year, and around 90% of them were granted, so this is not, as was originally envisaged, a handful of young people. Are any of those young people also ill? Are noble Lords content that at 18 years and one day old they should have assisted suicide raised with them? Are they also happy that if a child has been under mental health treatment but is also physically ill, at 18 years and one day they come under the jurisdiction of this Bill? The same applies to those detained in a young offender institution. Sadly, due to the Private Member’s Bill process, I do not believe that there has been any consultation, a White Paper or pre-legislative scrutiny to flush out the details and data that we need to properly legislate.

I am grateful to the Children’s Commissioner for attending the Select Committee, but I was surprised that the Public Bill Committee in the House of Commons did not hear from her.

In addition to the issue of those who are 18 years old and one day, some of whom are still under the jurisdiction of the Children’s Commissioner until they are 25 and under the jurisdiction of the local authority, it is not wrong to say that there will be enormous societal change that affects children. I would be grateful to know, whether now or in the meeting that the noble and learned Lord has promised, whether he is aware of this group of children and what meetings he has had to establish how many would be affected at 18 years old, how many are in this group and how they can be protected by additional conditions and safeguards.

[Lord Harper (Con)]

My Lords, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, gave a very welcome response to the opening speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay. He set out a range of protections that there may be. Once he has had those conversations, if he is persuaded that there need to be some protections, will he be prepared to table his own amendments on Report to put those protections and assurances in the legislation, or will he do what the Delegated Powers Committee referred to as disguise legislation, which is only putting it in codes of practice and guidance?

I think it would be widely agreed that if we are going to have those protections, it is better that they are in the Bill. They then cannot be watered down and can be properly enforced. Could he indicate that to all noble Lords after he has had those conversations with those who are interested? The disadvantage of having private meetings is that you are not able to tell other people. If the noble and learned Lord wants proceedings to go faster and to table his own amendments on Report and prevent the need for other people to do so, can he indicate that, once he has had those conversations, he would be willing bring forward those amendments and put those protections in the legislation. I am sure that would be most welcome. If he could indicate his thinking on that today, that would be of help to the House.

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[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I hear the noble Lord, but my role today, as I am sure he understands, is to advise your Lordships on the risks as we see them and for noble Lords to decide how they wish to interpret them with regard to these amendments. But I am grateful for the point that the noble Lord makes.

Noble Lords may wish to note that these amendments would lead to different treatments for those detained under the Mental Health Act from those detained under the Mental Capacity Act. Only those detained under the Mental Capacity Act would be excluded from assisted dying. Noble Lords may wish to consider whether this is justifiable, given that the criteria for detention under both Acts are similar. The decision on which Act to use is largely a matter of professional discretion. Operationally, these amendments could also create confusion for practitioners, because they depart from the principle that capacity assessments are decision- and time-specific, so additional guidance and training would be needed.

Finally, as noble Lords will be aware, these amendments have not had technical drafting support from officials, which means that they may not be fully workable, effective or enforceable in the way that they are currently drafted. However, the issues raised are rightly a matter for noble Lords to consider and decide.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

I have heard this outline of the Government’s position. Am I correct in understanding that the Government have no position on ensuring that the Bill is safe for vulnerable groups of people?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I would not make that assumption.

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[Lord Moore of Etchingham (Non-Afl)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. As I said, I will come on to the amendment soon, but I want to emphasise this point because I think that it matters a lot in this debate and will matter in the coming weeks. A particularly virulent article in the Times, written by Nicholas Boles—he was, until recently, an informal adviser to the Prime Minister—put these arguments in a way that was quite inappropriate for the type of discussion on a conscience issue that we are having.

On prisoners, I want very much to pursue the point about autonomy, which is absolutely right. It goes to the heart of this Bill, because the Bill’s supporters are those who give precedence to autonomy over all other things. The people who are more questioning of the Bill do not necessarily do that—at least, they think that there are many qualifications to the right of autonomy.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, pointed out so eloquently, this issue very much applies to prisoners, who have a double loss of autonomy in prisons. First, their autonomy has been taken away from them by the decision of the state, as expressed in the quaint phrase “at His Majesty’s pleasure”; it is not “at the prisoner’s pleasure” but “at His Majesty’s pleasure”, which is an expression of the power of the state and the prisoner’s loss of autonomy. Secondly, prisoners lose autonomy in another way because of their vulnerability and the situation they are in.

The point I wish to add to this argument is to do with the Government, rather than the movers of the Bill, although it affects them, of course. In evidence to the Select Committee, the relevant Minister at the Ministry of Justice, Sarah Sackman, said that, as far as the Government are concerned:

“The policy choice that the option of a voluntary assisted death be extended to those in prison is just that. It is a policy choice on which the Government are neutral”.


I do not understand how the Government can be neutral on a matter that is entirely within their purview, and I would like to hear what the Minister has to say about that.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 30A and 119A in my name, which relate to children and young people who are under an EHCP. I offered to withdraw these two amendments in order to shorten proceedings; by putting that on the record, I will shorten the meeting offered by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, but not necessarily these proceedings.

I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Coffey for spotting a typo in Amendment 119A—ECHP instead of EHCP. Please may we not create any more quangos with that combination of letters?

The Select Committee heard from Dame Rachel de Souza, the Children’s Commissioner for England, about the basic policy reason behind some vulnerable adolescents and those with additional needs being under her jurisdiction until they are 25: they need the extra support to transition into adulthood. Amendment 30A would remove all young people under an EHCP from the Bill; Amendment 119A on this policy ground would mean them falling under the Act, but with additional conditions. Such an issue may be additional subject matter for the promised meeting. Would these be the right conditions, were we to accept Amendment 119A?

The Children’s Commissioner’s jurisdiction also covers anyone under the age of 25 who has ever been in care. She has a specific responsibility for children up to the age of 25 who have an EHCP. I note that, in law, it is not 18 for all purposes. You cannot adopt children until you are 21. So, at the moment, the Bill does not produce a cliff edge at the age of 18.

Some of the young people on EHCPs may lack capacity and are, therefore, outside the scope of the Bill. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins—she is no longer in her place—has often said, assessing the capacity of people with learning disabilities is a complex matter. However, many young people are on an EHCP because of other additional needs or considerable childhood traumas; they will have capacity and will, therefore, come under this Bill. It is again relevant to think of them at 18 years and one day old, and with a life-limiting condition. Sadly, due to the lack of the usual pre-legislative processes of consultation, a White Paper and scrutiny, we are without the data on these vulnerable groups showing how many in the EHCP or under High Court DoLS also have life-limiting conditions. That data would give us an idea as to the priority of conditions for different groups.

In the Select Committee, Ken Ross of the Down’s Syndrome Association stated that people with Down’s syndrome cannot always fully comprehend complex decisions and have very suggestible minds. This is why there are additional safeguards in the EHCP, but if they have capacity, they are under the Bill currently without any additional safeguards.

Again, due to the process of the Private Member’s Bill, it is not clear how this legislation sits with other legislation and safeguards. Has the Bill been considered by the Department for Education, which has responsibility for children under the 1989 Act? Has the noble and learned Lord met with those Ministers? For instance, just to give an array of possible problems, in many cases local authorities legally still have a role for those under an EHCP after the age of 18. How will that fit with the processes outlined for assisted dying? Will there be a clash of decision-making from the EHCP special educational needs panel and the TIA panel?

What legal authority does the local authority have on safeguarding grounds to intervene in the panel’s process for a young adult on an EHCP if it disagrees with the assessment by the panel that the young person is making the request for assisted dying due to peer pressure or, as Ken Ross suggested, an enhanced susceptibility to pressure from white coat syndrome for those with Down’s syndrome? Is it mandatory for the TIA panel to get information from the SEND panel? Can the SEND panel appeal the decision to grant assisted dying? It seems not, so the family and the local authority will be left with the expensive and difficult remedy of judicial review.

Has the noble and learned Lord considered the evidence from the British Association of Social Workers? It states that the panel needs the power to do its own safeguarding assessments, or the power to close a case a local authority is seized of under Section 42 of the Care Act 2014. Otherwise, assisted dying could be granted and there could still be an open safeguarding case at the local authority unless the panel has the power to investigate and close it. These issues would have been flagged on a government write-round or during proper pre-legislative scrutiny. I am disappointed at the lack of meetings so far, as we need a proper process to consider the position of many vulnerable 18 year-olds on the day after their 18th birthday.

Bearing in mind Amendment 22, which the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, mentioned, I wonder whether she, the noble and learned Lord or the Minister are aware of whether the policy decisions made for pregnant women in other jurisdictions are based on policy alone or on clinical evidence. If there is clinical evidence that drugs can promote and induce labour, is that why other jurisdictions have taken pregnant women out? That is relevant, because I have amendments later in the Bill about warning relatives of complications, especially if there is going to be a person under 18 present while assisted dying is being given.

Finally, on the points raised at the start of the proceedings by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, I did not have the benefit of listening to the “Today” programme, but we are dealing with so many groups of vulnerable people. That is because of the lack of pre-legislative steps that we usually have. Groups would have been consulted and there would have been a White Paper. I have been exchanging optimistic emails with the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, but for me personally it is an open question, bearing in mind the lack of pre-legislative scrutiny, whether the Private Member’s Bill process actually fix that.

I know that the noble and learned Baroness worked with the noble Baroness and that she is very fair-minded, but I have had cause to look at the evidence from the Jersey States Assembly, a small Parliament. It was drawn to our attention in the Select Committee by Alex Ruck Keene KC that some instructions went to 200 pages, so I asked the Library to do some research and the Jersey parliament’s process is gold-plated. Not only that, but its website is much easier to use than parliament.uk and one can look at the process and timetable from 2021. When the States Assembly approved what it was going to do, the Executive—the Minister for Health and Social Affairs—gave drafting instructions to parliamentary counsel. To write a piece of legislation fit for purpose, they ran to 201 pages. We say that we are the mother of Parliaments in the Commonwealth context, but that is the way to legislate. I keep open in my conscience whether this process can fix the problems with the Bill which are such that none of the royal colleges is currently supporting it.

[The Lord Bishop of Gloucester]

My Lords, I speak to Amendment 22 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, to which I have also added my name. I declare my interest as Anglican Bishop to prisons in England and Wales.

There are many reasons why I believe that assisted dying may not be a fair choice for the general population, as things stand, but today I am shining a spotlight, as has already been said, on the prison population. I do not think that there has been enough attention in the debate so far on how the Bill would function for those in prison. I do not apologise for having spoken about prisons in the previous group, because this Amendment 22 is about excluding prisoners from the Bill, but the previous group of amendments assumed that prisoners would still be in the Bill. Therefore, we still need to look through that lens when we are discussing issues about GPs and medical records.

The prison population is in worse health than the general population. We have heard that. However, the reports from both the Health and Social Care Select Committee in the other place and the Chief Medical Officer paint a more concerning picture than that. Age-related illnesses, dependency and frailty can begin at an earlier age than in the general population. The prison population is ageing faster, and when I am visiting prisons I never cease to be shocked by the number of extremely elderly and frail people in prison. In most places, the prison system is not able to meet their needs properly—and that is not to criticise the prison staff, who are doing their best.

Nacro reported that, in 2019-20, people in prison missed 42% of scheduled hospital appointments. The Health and Social Care Select Committee goes as far as to say that

“so-called natural cause deaths, the highest cause of mortality in prison, too often reflect serious lapses in care”.

As has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Farmer, there is a lack of palliative and end-of-life care in prisons and, although there are some examples of excellent practice, action to improve this is voluntary and not supported by the commissioning of services.

Noble Lords may well say that prisoners should have equal access to care under the law, including assisted dying but, as has already been said, they do not currently have equal access to care. For me, this is not simply about the prison system and healthcare; it is about the perspectives and sense of well-being among those in prison. I will not rehearse everything that has already been said, but will just reiterate that the prison population experience high levels of hopelessness. We have frequently and rightly spoken about IPP prisoners in this House.

Again and again as I visit prisons, I hear about and see evidence of the high levels of self-harm in our prisons; it is particularly high in the female estate. Self-inflicted deaths in prison are predicted to continue to rise disproportionately compared to the general growth of the prison population. We need to be cognisant of the fact that, during the special Select Committee on the Bill, the Royal College of Psychiatrists talked about how a person’s wish to hasten their death can be impacted by what their life is like.

Although compassionate release is an option, it is rarely taken up. Crucially, according to Macmillan Cancer Support’s A Guide for Prisoners at the End of Life, it also requires a three-month prognosis. How does that interact with the Bill?

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[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

It is important I reclarify that that is a policy decision. What I am doing with your Lordships’ Committee is advising on risks, to assist noble Lords to make their decision regarding this policy.

Amendments 30A and 119A, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, would exclude any person with an education, health and care plan from being eligible for an assisted death, except in cases provided for in regulations made by the Secretary of State. As drafted, these amendments could impose unclear and potentially undeliverable legal duties on the Secretary of State and are potentially not aligned with how EHCPs work in practice or in law. The amendments give rise to a number of unresolved operational questions that do not work with other provisions of the Bill and they are not drafted with sufficient specificity. That could lead to confusion for those interpreting the legislation and unintended outcomes.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

We are about to have a meeting to outline special additional conditions, so can I clarify that the Minister is not saying that that is not possible and just that the particular conditions outlined in Amendment 119A are not possible?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

First, I am referring to the amendments before us. Secondly, I am advising on risk and workability, again for the assistance of your Lordships’ Committee, which, as is correct and proper, will make the decision.

These amendments appear to treat people with EHCPs differently from those who do not have them. This could give rise to potential incompatibility with Article 14 of the ECHR, when read with Article 8, and would require reasonable justification for differential treatment.

Finally, as noble Lords will be aware, the amendments in this group have not had technical drafting support from officials, so the way they are drafted means that they may not be fully workable, effective or enforceable. However, as I have said, the issues raised are rightly a matter for noble Lords to consider and decide.