Oral Answers to Questions

Angus Robertson Excerpts

Monday 15th April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Dr Murrison]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to highlight this matter. He will be aware of the success of Operation Atalanta under British command; that operation has really got to grips with piracy off the horn of Africa. In addition, we engage with the European Union through EUTM—EU training mission—Somalia and EUCAP NESTOR, which is involved in training indigenous assets for littoral operations. He will also be aware of the work of AMISOM, the African Union Mission in Somalia, in which we are involved with training, and of the British Peace Support Team Eastern Africa, based in Kenya, which is heavily involved in peace support operations. Later this year, I hope that we will be able to open a defence section in Mogadishu, when security conditions allow.

[Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)]

Does the Minister agree with the value of joint international training as part of the defence engagement strategy? Will he take this opportunity to commend the thousands of personnel from 10 different states who are currently taking part in the Joint Warrior exercise, as well as all the communities that are hosting them?

[Dr Murrison]

I certainly commend our engagement in training. I have spent some time in Libya and Brazil recently, and it is clear that our international partners really want British training. It is an important part of their ask of us, and it is a first-rate part of our defence engagement activity.

Army Basing Plan

Angus Robertson Excerpts

Tuesday 5th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hammond]

I am very happy to meet my hon. Friend. I should reassure him that despite the closure of Claro barracks, the adjacent defence training estate site, Deverell barracks, and the associated training areas in Laver Banks and Ripon park will not be affected by this announcement.

On the disposal of the Claro barracks site, as with all the sites that are wholly or partially for disposal, the Defence Infrastructure Organisation will engage with local stakeholders and local planning authorities and endeavour to dispose of them in a way that maximises the receipt to defence, but also protects the interests of the local community and maximises the beneficial economic impact of development on those sites.

[Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)]

I thank the Secretary of State for advance sight of his statement, welcome the return of troops from Germany and pay tribute to them for their decades of service there and to the German communities that hosted them, but the statement marks the breaking of a raft of defence promises in relation to Scotland. Will he clarify that the UK Government are not returning 6,500 to 7,000 troops from Germany to Scotland, as promised, that they are not building new barracks at Kirknewton, as promised, that they are not opening a new training area, as promised, and that they are not delivering the Army personnel levels promised for Leuchars, but that they are closing the Sterling headquarters of 51st Infantry Brigade and HQ Scotland? The Ministry of Defence has acknowledged that over the past decade there has been a 28% cut in the number of defence personnel in Scotland, compared with an 11% cut across the UK as a whole. The Army return to Scotland was supposed to offset the loss of the RAF and increase the defence footprint, so will the Secretary of State confirm that across the services, and taking into account the RAF changes, there will in fact be fewer personnel, not more, and certainly fewer than the 15,000 planned for an independent Scotland?

[Mr Hammond]

We have already discussed the story in The Courier today, “Tank regiment rolls into Leuchars base”, and the story in The Scotsman, “Scotland to keep Royal Marines base at Arbroath”. One would think that the hon. Gentleman might have something positive to say about that. When my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox) made his statement in July 2011, the hon. Gentleman, as he might remember, accused the Government of planning to remove the Royal Marines from Scotland completely and close Fort George, neither of which has happened. It is true that the decision has been taken not to develop Kirknewton, but the balancing factor is the retention of Dreghorn as an Army barracks. The hon. Gentleman’s assertion about personnel numbers in Scotland is incorrect. My right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset made his statement on 18 July 2011, and I have checked the numbers against that baseline. The total number of armed forces personnel in Scotland will be just over 600 higher than the baseline. I have also made a little calculation of the proportion of our armed forces personnel who will be based in Scotland, compared with the proportion of the population of the United Kingdom in Scotland. By my calculation, 8.39% of the UK population is in Scotland and 8.65% of our armed forces will be in Scotland by the end of this programme.

Oral Answers to Questions

Angus Robertson Excerpts

Monday 25th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dunne]

My hon. Friend is a stalwart defender of this country’s nuclear deterrent. I applaud him for that and for the debate that he called on this subject at the end of last year. It remains to be seen what costings are attached to the alternative plans that our coalition partners may or may not publish in due course.

[Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)]

The majority of Scottish MPs at Westminster have voted against Trident renewal, just as the majority of Members of the Scottish Parliament have voted against Trident renewal, and just as the Scottish trade unions, the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations, every single faith group and the majority of public opinion are against Trident renewal. Why are the Government ignoring the democratic majority in Scotland and wasting billions of pounds on something that could never be used, rather than investing in conventional defence?

[Mr Dunne]

The hon. Gentleman should address his remarks to the workers of the Rosyth area and see how they feel about whether we should retain a nuclear deterrent in this country. Decisions about this country’s nuclear deterrent are made in this Parliament, as they were in 2007, and they will continue to be made here.

Deployment to Mali

Angus Robertson Excerpts

Tuesday 29th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hammond]

My right hon. and learned Friend talks about a step change in Britain’s commitment in Mali. Let me set this in context. In the SDSR, we made it clear that a greater part of Britain’s defence effort in future would be devoted to training, supporting and upskilling local forces in fragile areas, to prevent the breakdown of order in such countries. We are proposing to deploy up to 200 troops in a training role to support four Anglophone countries in west Africa to prepare forces to intervene in Mali. That seems to me to be a very well leveraged use of British forces, British resources and British capability to deliver effect at minimal cost and risk to ourselves.

[Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)]

The Secretary of State has drawn attention to the fact that discussions involving other countries are taking place in Brussels about the commitment that they are prepared to make to Mali. Will he update the House on commitments that have been made thus far by EU neighbours, including countries such as Denmark, and confirm that those discussions also involve countries that are not in the EU, such as Norway and Canada?

[Mr Hammond]

The hon. Gentleman is right; some offers of assistance have already been provided—I have just had a discussion this morning with the Belgian Defence Minister—but it would be better, if he does not mind, to await the completion of the discussion today. I can assure him, as I have already assured Mr Speaker, that one of my colleagues from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office will come to update the House as soon as we have the readout from that discussion and the one in Addis Ababa.

Unmanned Air Vehicles

Angus Robertson Excerpts

Thursday 24th January 2013 Ministerial Corrections

[Angus Robertson]

To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) how many crashes there have been with the Elbit Systems Hermes 450 Unmanned Aerial Vehicles in (a) the UK and (b) Afghanistan;

Armed Forces Redundancies

Angus Robertson Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)]

Service personnel numbers in Scotland are at a record low of 11,000. Will the Minister confirm whether that will go down yet further? Only last year the Ministry of Defence said that between 6,500 and 7,000 troops would return from Germany, that a new barracks would be built at Kirknewton and that there would be new training areas in the borders. Will the Minister confirm that the Government are going back on all those commitments?

[Mr Francois]

For the purposes of this process, Scottish personnel will be treated in much the same way as personnel throughout the rest of the United Kingdom. I believe the House thinks that is right; so do I.

Defence Industrial Base (Scotland)

Angus Robertson Excerpts

Wednesday 16th January 2013 Ministerial Corrections

The following is the answer given by the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the hon. Member for Ludlow (Mr Dunne), to a question from the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) during Defence Question Time on 14 January 2013.

[Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)]

Last week, the UK Government published a paper about Faslane, which was widely reported together with incorrect job projections. Will the Minister dissociate the UK Government and the Better Together campaign from double counting and fabrication on such a serious issue?

[Mr Dunne]

The hon. Gentleman has clearly been reading information that is simply not emerging from the Ministry of Defence. The base at Faslane is the largest employment site in Scotland, with some 6,700 military and civilian jobs projected to increase by around 8,200 by 2022 as the Royal Navy moves all its submarines there. Those are the numbers.

[Official Report, 14 January 2013, Vol. 556, c. 592.]

Letter of correction from Philip Dunne:

An error has been identified in the oral answer given to the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson).

The correct answer should have been:

Oral Answers to Questions

Angus Robertson Excerpts

Monday 14th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)]

Last week, the UK Government published a paper about Faslane, which was widely reported together with incorrect job projections. Will the Minister dissociate the UK Government and the Better Together campaign from double counting and fabrication on such a serious issue?

[Mr Dunne]

The hon. Gentleman has clearly been reading information that is simply not emerging from the Ministry of Defence. The base at Faslane is the largest employment site in Scotland, with some 6,700 military and civilian jobs projected to increase by around 8,200 by 2022 as the Royal Navy moves all its submarines there. Those are the numbers.[Official Report, 16 January 2013, Vol. 556, c. 6MC.]

Defence Personnel

Angus Robertson Excerpts

Thursday 6th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr James Arbuthnot (North East Hampshire) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the matter of defence personnel.

If I may, I would like to begin, rather oddly, by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for North West Cambridgeshire (Mr Vara) on the previous debate, which was outstanding—despite the fact that it has taken time away from the defence debate. I think that it was a really worthwhile way of starting today’s Back-Bench business.

I am grateful to the Backbench Business Committee for granting us a debate on personnel issues. We discover that there is a disadvantage in having this debate during the week of the autumn statement, because it has been relegated to the end of a day after not only the important debate we have just had, but important statements that have to be made following the autumn statement. Because there is less time than there might otherwise have been, I will take as little time as possible in order to allow everyone who wishes to speak to do so.

There will inevitably be subjects I do not cover. I am afraid that I will not cover the important issue of reductions of certain historic and well-recruited regiments, but I hope that, by not speaking about that, I will allow other right hon. and hon. Members to do so, and with greater knowledge than I could possibly show. I shall say little about redundancies or reservists, because the Defence Committee has recently conducted a number of inquiries into those subjects. Yesterday, we took the unusual step of announcing in advance the Committee’s programme for the remainder of this Parliament. It will include inquiries into some of these important matters.

One of the advantages of having the debate today is that it seems to have prompted the Ministry of Defence to produce lots of documents, including its accounts for 2011-12 and the annual report on the covenant. It is always nice to have the MOD’s accounts, even if the auditor qualifies them, as always, by saying that they do not show a true or fair view of the state of the MOD’s finances. It would have been nicer still if we had had the accounts in June or July, when we should have done, but no doubt the accounting officer will be able to give an explanation when he comes before us next week—an event to which I know the whole Defence Committee will be looking forward enormously.

Today’s annual report on the armed forces covenant is welcome. It reflects many of the suggestions made by the Committee in its continuing series of inquiries into the covenant, for example on doubling council tax relief, on the false economy created by the pause in the refurbishment of single living accommodation, on home ownership and on health care, particularly mental health care, for veterans and reservists. Those are not acknowledged as being the Committee’s suggestions, but we know the terms of trade and do not mind that, so long as the MOD from time to time listens to what we say and does something about it.

The relationship between the MOD and the Select Committee needs to contain an element of constructive tension—almost scratchy; never cosy. Sometimes there is more tension than constructiveness, but I tell the Minister that the more open his Department is with the Committee, the more we can help to get his policies right. We shall shortly be producing a report on the Service Complaints Commissioner, who, as usual, gave us most helpful evidence a couple of weeks ago. I hope that the Minister will listen and respond positively to what we will say on Dr Atkins’ extremely valuable role.

The MOD does sometimes help us. Last week it helped the Committee to have an extremely valuable visit to Afghanistan as part of our normal programme of visiting our armed forces wherever they are deployed. Several issues arose, and they are what I want to concentrate on for the remainder of my short remarks.

I will touch first on welfare matters, starting with decompression. At the end of a six-month tour, we consider it essential to ensure that our troops are provided with a period of what is known as decompression. Often that takes place in Cyprus on the way home, when the returning troops, over a few kegs of beer, are reminded that their spouses will have been living their own lives while they were away and will not necessarily understand exactly what they have been through. These are absolutely essential reminders.

However, apparently, decompression is not considered essential when our forces return for a two-week break in the middle of a tour. That suggests that we need to rethink the entire concept of the two-week break, not of decompression itself. Is the two-week break necessary or a good thing? For example, when our troops are working alongside the Americans, who, unlike British forces, get travel time taken off their break but get only a two-week rest and relaxation break in a one-year tour, does that create resentments on either side? Is the entire concept of a break destabilising? If, for operational reasons, someone’s break comes very near the beginning or end of their tour, what good does it do? The armed forces and the Ministry of Defence need to begin to think about these things very seriously.

The armed forces sometimes need to make serious and difficult choices between welfare and operational output. I suspect that in 2014 the welfare of our troops in Afghanistan will be pretty minimal, frankly. We will have drawn down and taken away much of their support system, and, as we were told, they will be living out of the backs of their vehicles. The troops and, just as importantly, we need to know that, think about it, and accept it now. This is not about stopping looking after the armed forces who do so much for us; it is about putting it in the context that their primary task is operational, and that when they signed up they also signed up to an element of austerity when necessary.

Another issue that arose was detention. There is a genuine problem over the legal ability to transfer those whom we detain to the Afghan authorities, which were accused in the past of mistreating one of the people we had previously transferred. We visited the detention facility in question, and we were impressed with the new deputy governor, who has a good international track record in observing and enforcing human rights. Nevertheless, we remain concerned that there should be a speedy solution to this problem. We must not run the risk of being forced to hold on to people whom our troops detain, because that might lengthen our involvement in Afghanistan in certain respects far beyond the period for which we would wish to be so involved. Still less must we put our troops at risk of being subject to any legal challenge regarding a failure to obey international law in what they have done. I suggest that in future there should always be an Afghan element in the capture, interrogation and detention of those suspected of insurgency or dealing in narcotics so that in all cases the detention is Afghan, not British, and the problem therefore does not arise. However, such a solution would require complicated discussions between ourselves and the Afghan authorities, and I appreciate that it will not be easy to achieve.

Our role in Afghanistan now is to step back, and that is a very difficult thing for the British armed forces to do. Their natural inclination, as the sort of people they are with the sort of qualities they have, is to step in and help; that is what they are trained to do. However, we are now reaching the stage in Afghanistan where the best help we can give is not to help. One aspect of this is the insider threat, which is sometimes referred to as “green on blue”. One of the soldiers we talked to in Camp Bastion said that it is absolutely galling that the very people we are there to help might turn on us. The risk is not going to go away; all we can do is minimise it. My own view—I do not know about other members of the Defence Committee—is that we are doing our very best to achieve that. If we draw the conclusion that we cannot trust the Afghan security forces, we will be quite wrong. It is a fantastic country with wonderful people who are, let us not forget, being asked to learn in a few years what it took us centuries to learn. It will still be necessary for our troops to help to use the ISTAR—intelligence, surveillance, target acquisition and reconnaissance—assets that we have and to call in the medical helicopters that are so highly regarded, but it will increasingly be less necessary for them to patrol alongside the Afghan patrols, which are becoming more capable day by day.

We came away from Afghanistan with a strong message. At the end of the summer, an instruction went out to the insurgents that they should fight their way through the winter. Despite that, the insurgency dropped away very suddenly. The insurgents are finding it increasingly hard to raise and retain their money and resources. They are also finding it very difficult to persuade their co-insurgents to fight Afghan soldiers, who are becoming increasingly competent. That competence is likely to increase with the advent of the academy for officer training, to be run along the lines of Sandhurst. We went to visit it. It is currently a building site, true, but the Afghans have begun to identify their first training officers and non-commissioned officers, who are clearly of extremely high quality. They have set themselves some enormously high challenges—for example, to have 150 female officer cadets a year passing through the college. In the long run—this point was most validly made to us by President Karzai—the issue of the equal treatment of women is likely to be resolved not by western influence or by the hectoring of countries such as ours but by education and the visibility of the outside world provided by the internet.

We found that security is no longer the primary issue of concern for most Afghans. There is still fear when people travel from one part of the country to another, but the ability of Afghans to farm in peace, and to get their goods to market on an increasingly secure road network, is being greatly improved. This has been achieved by a combination of the actions of our troops and the actions of the Afghan national security forces—police and army, pleasingly—in doing what our troops are training them to do.

Some say that we should leave Afghanistan now. In one sense, that is what we are doing. If we wanted to leave tomorrow, it would in fact take us about 18 months to do so. We are doing it by leaving in place a working security apparatus that will help to ensure that Afghanistan does not again become a threat to this country. By staying involved after the end of combat operations in 2014, we will ensure that there is transition, not abandonment. The strongest message that we received from our personnel in Afghanistan was that we should hold our nerve and stick to the plan, which is a good one.

Here I should acknowledge something: I was wrong. I believed that by setting a date for us to leave Afghanistan we were playing into the hands of the Taliban, who would just wait us out. I told the Prime Minister that if we concentrated on success, we would make it easier for us to leave, whereas if we concentrated on leaving, we would make it harder for us to succeed. It is hard for me to say this, but the Prime Minister and my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (John Stevenson) were quite right and I was quite wrong. In practice, the Afghans needed us to step back, and they needed a timetable. Arguably, by setting a date in 2014 the Prime Minister bought more time for the international security assistance force to achieve transition than it would have had if the time scale had been left open-ended.

Finally, I would like to pay tribute to our armed forces. They are going through a tough time at the moment, as is the entire country. They know they are not immune from the financial hardship afflicting us all. They are facing redundancies, reductions in the pensions they can expect and a smaller total expenditure on defence.

[Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)]

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that many service personnel want clarity from the Ministry of Defence on what will happen to arrangements for units in which husbands and wives are based? They, like the right hon. Gentleman, perhaps, and me, were under the impression that we might learn that from a statement from the MOD as soon as next Tuesday. Is he aware of reports suggesting that that announcement will not take place next Tuesday and does he know of any reasons why that might be? If not, perhaps the Minister on the Treasury Bench could clarify whether that is correct.

[Mr Arbuthnot]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. The Chief of the General Staff was asked a similar question when he appeared before us yesterday. Unsurprisingly, the timing of statements is a matter for the Government. We will have to wait to hear from the Minister whether this has been affected by the changes announced in yesterday’s autumn statement, but he will have heard the hon. Gentleman’s intervention and will no doubt be eager to cover it in his contribution, even if he does not look too eager at present.

As I have said, the Chief of the General Staff appeared before us and he said that this was a worrying and destabilising time for the armed forces. Picking up on the hon. Gentleman’s point, it is certainty that the armed forces want—they just want to know where they stand so that they can plan their lives accordingly.

It is our job as a Parliament to recognise what our armed forces do for us and to thank them for it. I am pleased that the country seems to be well aware of how much we owe our armed forces, and today is our opportunity to acknowledge it and to thank them.

[Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot). It is also a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal), who spoke in the previous debate and reminded me—this is important—that he probably arrived in the west midlands as a Ugandan Asian at the same time that I arrived there as a German. He now occupies Enoch Powell’s old seat and I have Neville Chamberlain’s old seat. That shows our extraordinary diversity and ability to assimilate and accommodate people from all parts of the world.

[Angus Robertson]

The hon. Lady is also holding a piece of paper in her hand.

[Ms Stuart]

Yes, I am holding a piece of paper—or several of them—in my hand.

Before the right hon. Member for North East Hampshire beats himself up too much about having been wrong, he should remember that we have not yet withdrawn from Afghanistan. I hope that we will both end up having to say that we have been proved wrong, but we should be anything but complacent about what happens in Afghanistan and about the ease of withdrawal. The closer we get to the withdrawal date and the more we have to ensure the safety of our own troops—we are not entirely clear who provides that security—the more difficult it will get. The situation reminds me of when children leave home: we cannot wait for them to leave home, but the closer the time gets, the more nervous we get about their having to step out.

I want to start by addressing a big issue and then move on to something more specific. I am often accused of having a typical foreigner’s emotional attachment to British institutions, which is probably true of a few people. I have always been extremely proud of a country that has a sense of itself and its role in the world, but the recent strategic defence reviews and what has been happening in other Departments have made me begin to wonder whether we still have that sense of self and of our role in the world.

I would assert that we now have a Ministry of Defence that says that we will provide the amount of troops that we can afford in order to balance the books, rather than starting off by saying, “This is the role we wish to play in the world.” I would have expected a strategic defence review to start by saying, “We have a Navy because we are an island and therefore we need x, y and z,” and, “Our air force is a certain size because we have assessed the risk from the air.” The commitment and engagement that we wish to see outside these islands should determine the size of our Army. I have seen no such clear statement as to what we are about.

--- Later in debate ---

[Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)]

It is an honour to follow the hon. Member for Filton and Bradley Stoke (Jack Lopresti), who, with his experience, has much to bring to debates such as this, as well as the Chair of the Defence Committee. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) and I are members of the German caucus of the House of Commons, and I am pleased to follow her as the next Opposition speaker.

I will concentrate on the forthcoming base review, and I look forward to the Minister’s response to get clarity on why the statement is not being made on Tuesday and on when we can expect it. The base review is directly related to defence personnel because it will concentrate on arrangements for the return of UK forces from Germany and confirm the configuration of basing arrangements—which units go where, which will change their role or close, and which will not return. That is what we expect to hear.

We should put ourselves in the position of servicemen and women and their families, whether they are at a base in the UK, Germany or somewhere else. It is coming up to Christmas and they are expecting some clarity, but unfortunately they will not get it, which is a shame. It would be helpful for the Minister to offer clarity on the time scale.

I want to focus on the impact of the basing review on service personnel and communities not only in the UK, but in Germany. I had the good fortune to be in Lower Saxony two weeks ago—I visited the area around the Bergen-Hohne training area—to meet the local authorities. An announcement on basing will have an impact on those authorities and the service and civilian communities around the training area. Speaking to the mayor of Bad Fallingbostel, Rainer Schmuck, reminded me of the experience we had in Moray recently—as part of the review of RAF bases, the local community had to plan for all kind of eventualities, which is incredibly destabilising. The basing announcement will have a tremendous impact on local authority budgets available in communities such as Bad Fallingbostel.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

When the hon. Gentleman was in Germany, did he get any indication of whether the British Government have given two years’ notice of withdrawal, which they must give under the treaty? It is my understanding from a recent conversation that that has not yet been given, which is adding uncertainty about what will happen in Germany.

--- Later in debate ---

[Angus Robertson]

That is a good question. I met the premier of Lower Saxony, David McAllister, when I was in Germany. Because many of the decisions to be taken on amelioration of basing policy are effectively devolved functions—Ländersache—in Germany, decision makers such as David McAllister will have to work with local communities to help with the transition following any announcement on the basing review. Not one of my interlocutors both at Länder and community level was aware of any fixed timetable beyond what was said in previous statements. I was not told that there has been any clarity on what is likely to happen. I am sure the Minister does not disagree—he will no doubt say that clarity will be given as soon as possible—but I should underline the point that many hon. Members were given the impression that we would hear on Tuesday, but it now appears that we will not.

For communities such as Bad Fallingbostel, the likelihood of the withdrawal of UK forces is significant. The role of the military in that part of the world goes back a long time, to the time of the Hanoverian redcoats. While they were tramping around parts of Scotland in the mid-18th century, they were also beginning to train on the Lüneburg Heath. The area has since become the most significant training area anywhere in Europe. A series of communities around the training area, whether in Bergen, Celle or Bad Fallingbostel itself, are exceptionally defence dependent. The impact of the basing review is significant not only in Lower Saxony; there are large-scale UK military presences in places such as Gütersloh and Paderborn. We should not lose sight of the fact that basing announcements will be relevant not only here, but in friendly nations such as Germany. It is important that people there have as much notice of any changes as we have here, and as quickly as possible.

I have a couple of constituency matters to raise. Right hon. and hon. Members know that I represent one of the most defence-dependent constituencies in the UK—it contains RAF Lossiemouth and Kinloss barracks. I stress to the Minister that I am hearing loud and clear that people want clarity on what will happen. There is uncertainty on the time scale for the transfer of the Typhoons from Leuchars and uncertainty in Leuchars about what will happen at the base. There is uncertainty in Angus about the Condor facility, which has been there for a very long time. If the Minister is not aware of that uncertainty, I strongly advise him to look closely at the trends at bases such as RAF Lossiemouth, where over and above compulsory and voluntary release we are seeing, in some very important trade groups and specialisations, people leaving in droves. That is due largely to uncertainty and, it has to be said, the success of the offshore oil and gas industry, which is offering tremendous opportunities to people starting a career in the civilian world.

It would be useful to remind ourselves of the commitments given on basing, which I imagine will be the starting point for the Ministry of Defence. We do not have to look back very far, because the previous Secretary of State for Defence, the right hon. Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox), was explicit about the MOD’s plans for Scotland and I would like to remind the House what they are. He made a statement on defence transformation, and I will read the entire paragraph, because it is important:

“Army brigades currently stationed around Catterick and Salisbury will make up three of the five multi-role brigades. The other two MRBs will be based in the east of England, centred on Cottesmore, and in Scotland, centred on Kirknewton, south-west of Edinburgh. The MRB centred in Scotland will require a new training area, and positive discussions are being taken forward with the Scottish Government. Two major units and a formation headquarters will be based at Leuchars, increasing the number of posts there from 1,200 to more than 1,300. Consequently, the Typhoon force due to be built up there will instead be built up at RAF Lossiemouth. Other MRB units will be moved into Glencorse, Caledonia, Albemarle barracks and eventually Arbroath, as we intend over time to bring the bulk of the Royal Marines together in the south-west.”—[Official Report, 18 June 2011; Vol. 531, c. 644-5.]

That was outlined only last year, and there is no ambiguity whatsoever. A month later, he went on to give welcome clarity on numbers. When asked about the number of troops expected to return from Germany to Scotland, he said:

“It is impossible to give an exact number, but I would imagine that between 6,500 and 7,000, or something of that order, of the 20,000 personnel we currently have in Germany will be coming back to the multi-role brigades in Scotland. The precise number and lay-down will be subject to the plans that the Army will bring forward in the months and years ahead, assuming of course that we have the agreement of the local authorities and the Scottish Government.”—[Official Report, 18 July 2011; Vol. 531, c. 655.]

The UK Government obviously had the support of the Scottish Government in relation to the training area and any planning that would need to take place. That was a very clear and unambiguous commitment about the number of troops coming back from Germany to Scotland.

All the mood music and noise we hear about the basing review makes me concerned that there will be a rowing back on those commitments only a year after they were made. The context is important and we should not lose sight of it. The former Secretary of State for Defence gave an important number when he told the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs on 7 June 2011 that

“between 2000 and 2010, the total reduction”—

in service jobs—

“was 11.6% but the reduction in Scotland was 27.9%. Over the decade 2000 to 2010 there were bigger reductions made in total personnel as a proportion than in other parts of the United Kingdom.”

That is the inheritance with which we have found ourselves, and we have the commitment given by the former Secretary of State that one would try to make good some of the disproportionate cuts visited on defence in Scotland.

[Mr Gray]

rose—

[Angus Robertson]

I will of course give way to the chairman of the all-party group on the armed forces.

[Mr Gray]

I am listening carefully to what the hon. Gentleman has to say and I am reluctant to bring a note of party political angst into what has been an extremely well informed and sensible debate so far. However, does he not agree that if his party’s great ambition of an independent Scotland was to happen, the amount of UK troops based in Scotland would be significantly lower?

--- Later in debate ---

[Angus Robertson]

I am interested that the hon. Gentleman has an insight into the policy of future UK Governments wishing to withdraw troops from different parts of the UK. [Interruption.] Will Government Members let me answer? I have spoken for the majority of my comments about the presence of troops in other countries. It would be entirely possible—in fact, would it not be advantageous?—for Scottish troops to continue to train and operate in the area of England he represents, and I see no reason why troops from the rest of the UK could not continue to operate in Scotland.

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

rose—

[Angus Robertson]

Forgive me, but I want to make some progress. I know that other right hon. and hon. Gentlemen wish to speak.

It is helpful, when talking about the level of commitment to the defence footprint in Scotland, to be reminded of the facts. Only four infantry battalions are based in Scotland. The Scottish-recruited infantry is now smaller than the infantry of the Irish Republic. Further to the infantry battalions, we have 39 Engineer Regiment in the newly renamed Kinloss barracks. It is important to note that manning levels there are 41% lower than the previous RAF establishment total and that no regular Army units are based in Scotland in the following and important categories: artillery, armour, signals, logistics, air corps, intelligence and special forces. There are no military training establishments in Scotland, which means no military academy, no engineering schools, no Army training regiments, no infantry training centres and no senior strategic military command.

Even at this late stage, as the Government go through what they planned to announce in the basing review, which is exceptionally important to service personnel, I appeal to them not to go back on their commitments. Only a year ago, promises were made, and they should be kept. On a related note, the covenant has mentioned. I agree that everything should be done to deliver on it. As the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston pointed out, however, a large number of policy areas relating to the covenant are devolved. I observe that the Minister with responsibility for liaising with devolved Administrations has yet to speak to the Scottish Government since taking office. Having been asked for a meeting by the Scottish Government, he has yet to reply and make it happen.

[Mr Francois]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Angus Robertson]

I would be grateful if the Minister could explain why that might be the case.

[Mr Francois]

I am responsible for my diary, and I met Keith Brown, MSP, who is the transport and veterans Minister in the Scottish Government, some weeks ago. He is an ex-Royal Marine. It is fair to say that we had a constructive meeting. I have met the person in the Scottish Government responsible for the issue I am responsible for in the UK Government, so to try and imply that the UK Government are not in a dialogue with these people is incorrect.

[Angus Robertson]

“These people” being the Minister and the Scottish Government. I am pleased that the Minister has met Keith Brown; I am just pointing out that the UK MOD Minister responsible for relations with the devolved Administrations has not followed his lead. Perhaps he might encourage him to do so.

I hope that the Government do not go back on their commitments at this late stage. I do not believe that any sovereign Scottish Government of any mainstream hue would manage defence in the way the UK Government have done, with disproportionate cuts to manpower, spending and basing. It is time to make better defence decisions in Scotland. The Scottish National party has committed to uniform personnel levels of 15,000 in Scotland—4,000 more than the 11,000 the UK currently has based there—but we will only be able to do that after a yes vote in the 2014 independence referendum. I look forward to that greatly.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Shannon]

The hon. Gentleman’s facts are absolutely correct. I thank him for what he has said. Let me also take the opportunity to thank him for the immense contribution that he has made in his former role as a soldier, both in Northern Ireland and elsewhere in the world, and in particular for the part that he played, as an officer in his regiment, in the peace that we now have in Northern Ireland. His contribution is not often mentioned, and I wanted to put it on the record.

By tradition, we in Northern Ireland have never had to be conscripted to provide service personnel. We go above and beyond our duty, and that should be acknowledged and respected. Although in many instances the troubles in Northern Ireland highlighted segregation, the Army and the cadets now recruit from all sectors of the community. I want to stress to the Minister the importance of our cadets and reserve forces to community involvement and community-building. The Army works hard in those different parts of the community to show people what a great career can be enjoyed in the forces.

Our cadet force recruitment has been second to none, crossing the religious and political divides. The highest levels of recruitment are from areas that are traditionally less supportive of the military—Strabane, Londonderry, Limavady and Enniskillen. The importance of the cadet forces to our society cannot be sufficiently underlined. Northern Ireland, in my view, has the most rationalised and efficient cadets in the United Kingdom. We develop a higher proportion of our soldiers and sailors on operations than any other region, and we have the most and the best recruitment in the UK.

The main link between the Ministry of Defence and the communities in Northern Ireland is first through the cadets and secondly through the reserves. The success story lies in the fact that people from what are, perhaps, the traditionally less supportive areas are now joining the cadets in rising numbers. The position must be enhanced in the future, and that demands a commitment from the Ministry of Defence: cadets today, reserves and a full-time Army tomorrow.

I believe that there is much scope for Northern Ireland to house and facilitate the training of troops in buildings that are already owned and operated by the British Army. I suggest that Thiepval barracks in Lisburn, which currently houses the 38th Brigade, should be retained and enhanced. The draw-down from Germany will provide an opportunity for that to be done. The garrison at Ballykinler and Palace barracks in Holywood provide accommodation and training facilities that are ready and waiting to be fully utilised—and, of course, we must not forget the facilities at Aldergrove, from which forces have already withdrawn. Again, the draw-down from Germany will provide scope for development.

Those buildings are already intrinsic parts of the community. Officers in the barracks ensure that there is co-operation with young people, and with the community as a whole. It makes a great deal of sense to me—and, I know, to other Northern Ireland Members, who unfortunately are not present today—for facilities that are already available to be part of the 2020 plan for the Army, and I ask the MOD to give that serious consideration. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

It is essential for the plan for the reserve forces to constitute 30% of Army numbers by 2018 to be realised through the use of the many troops that are currently trained and ready to go. Through the armed forces parliamentary scheme, I have had the opportunity—along with others, including the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart)—to visit our base in Cyprus, and to note the strategic importance of Cyprus in a very uncertain middle east. We need to be able to call upon fully trained and equipped personnel at any time, and I believe the reserves are a way to achieve that. Although these men and women are not in the Army full-time, they are trained to a very high standard. We must ensure the strength of the reserves does not diminish. We have built up expertise, and it should be utilised as needed. The reserves should form the foundation for the proposed changes, and the Northern Ireland reserve members are an important part of them. Given that, the Ministry of Defence must give commitments on Northern Ireland, as part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and its role in respect of the armed forces.

Everywhere I go in the world, I always come across serving personnel from Northern Ireland with links to my constituency. Fellow members of the armed forces parliamentary scheme have observed that, and they have expressed amazement that there are always such connections. From Afghanistan to Canada, and from Kenya to the Falklands to Cyprus, there is always a Northern Ireland link, which illustrates the commitment of people in Northern Ireland to Queen and country and the principles of freedom and democracy.

[Angus Robertson]

The hon. Gentleman talks of a specific Northern Ireland perspective, and he is no doubt aware that recently the service chiefs met representatives of the political parties from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland for the first time. His colleague, the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley), was present as was the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd), and the discussions were valuable. Does the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) agree that they should be continued?

[Jim Shannon]

I entirely agree, and I would like the Minister to comment on that in his concluding remarks. The Northern Ireland link is clear and necessary.

I want to touch upon the importance of the Cyprus base. Cyprus has become a point of interest not only for Russia, but for China, and the strategic importance of Cyprus is underlined yet again by the fact that China wants to make Cyprus the base for its European operations. That is a small part of a bigger story.

Our Cyprus base provides training for soldiers going to Afghanistan and for officers from Sandhurst, and it is essential that it is retained after any shake-up. The right hon. Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot) mentioned soldiers coming home having a chance to unwind in Cyprus. It is a tremendous base and it has a major role to play in helping soldiers unwind from combat stress before going home.

In these times of economic uncertainty, people are having to look outside the normal comfort zones to find work. There is therefore a rise in Army recruitment everywhere, but especially among nationalists, which speaks volumes about how the younger generation see themselves. When the main town in my constituency, Newtownards, celebrated the homecoming of the Irish Guards, one soldier remarked to me that when they were told that some in Belfast did not want them to parade there, they were bemused as some members of their regiment were Catholics and Belfast was their hometown. I was told that there was no real sense of religion among the troops, and I know that to be the case: those who serve in the British Army are brothers, full stop.

I am pleased that recruitment is up, especially as many young people will find not simply a pay packet but a vocation for life. That feature must be encouraged in any changes in the armed forces. I am all for the armed forces changing, and I ask the Minister to say something about the possibility of using the Northern Ireland bases to facilitate the draw-down from Germany. I am today putting down the mark for Northern Ireland and for her to play a major role in the future of the armed forces in Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Captain Wilfred Spender of the Ulster Division’s HQ staff was quoted in the press as saying after the battle of the Somme:

“I am not an Ulsterman but yesterday, the 1st July, as I followed their amazing attack, I felt that I would rather be an Ulsterman than anything else in the world. The Ulster Division has lost more than half the men who attacked and, in doing so, has sacrificed itself for the Empire which has treated them none too well. Their devotion, which no doubt has helped the advance elsewhere, deserved the gratitude of the British Empire. It is due to the memory of these brave fellows that their beloved Province shall be fairly treated.”

Can anything different be said of our troops today, and can the response from the MOD be any different?

Oral Answers to Questions

Angus Robertson Excerpts

Monday 26th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dunne]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for demonstrating his expertise and bringing it to bear on our complicated procurement processes. We recognise that smaller companies, unlike the larger ones, do not have the resources to focus on putting bid proposals together, which is why we are introducing a number of measures to make that easier for them. They include publishing on web portals all tenders over £10,000, streamlining contract processes and speeding up invoice and bill payment systems, which will make it more convenient for SMEs to receive timely payments. We are also considering requests for interim payments on procurement.

[Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)]

According to the MOD’s own statistics, only 2% of SME contracts are given to Scottish companies. Meanwhile, the new Defence Business Services organisation is set to have 1,672 members of staff, only 13 of whom will be in Scotland. Is the Minister not embarrassed by that track record?

[Mr Dunne]

The hon. Gentleman might be interested to know that I will be in Scotland on Wednesday evening to meet defence contractors precisely to encourage them to participate more in the procurement that is on offer.