Israel

Andrew Percy Excerpts

Wednesday 14th December 2011 Westminster Hall

[Guto Bebb]

I agree entirely. That emerging city is indeed a testament to the development of the west bank. I agree that the prosperity and viability of the west bank is crucial to any move towards peace.

Prime Minister Netanyahu is subject to regular criticism, which ignores three important points. The first is that peace in the middle east has always come from the initiatives of the right in Israeli politics. That might not be something that some hon. Members in this Chamber would appreciate, but, in truth, the 1979 agreement with Egypt was the result of the efforts of Prime Minister Begin, and the 1994 agreement with Jordan that has been mentioned came from the leadership of the right. It is important to bear in mind that if the right in Israeli politics is moving towards peace, that offers the opportunity for a unified approach.

In the same way, comments about the Prime Minister of Israel ignore his words. Time and again he has made it clear that he is ready to negotiate anywhere, with anyone. I am not here to defend him; I am trying to offer some balance. In a speech in 2009, he said clearly:

“I appeal to the leaders of the Arab countries and say: Let us talk about peace. Let us make peace. I am willing to meet at any time, at any place”.

He followed those comments in 2011:

“Let’s meet here today in the United Nations. We have to stop negotiating about the negotiations. Let’s just get on with it. Let’s negotiate peace.”

Those are not the words, in my view, of a Prime Minister who is unwilling to talk about peace.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate, because, like him, I was extremely concerned about the words of the Foreign Secretary, where the emphasis seemed to be very much on Israel. I want to add another quotation from Mr Netanyahu:

“Israel will not be the last state to welcome a Palestinian state into the United Nations. We will be the first.”

My hon. Friend is right to emphasise the point that Netanyahu is expending considerable political capital on the issue. Far from being the ogre and pariah that he is made out to be, he has committed himself time and again to peace and negotiations.

[Guto Bebb]

Again, the record, but, unfortunately, not necessarily the media in this country, would support that view.

More important than words are actions, and in 2009-10 there was a freeze on all settlement activity. For a right-wing politician in Israel that is a brave move. The 10-month freeze was met with nine months of no activity by the Palestinians—another missed opportunity.

European Union

Andrew Percy Excerpts

Tuesday 13th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

I beg to move,

That this House commends the Prime Minister on his refusal at the European Council to sign up to a Treaty without safeguards for the UK; regards the use of the veto in appropriate circumstances to be a vital means of defending the national interests of the UK; and recognises the desire of the British people for a rebalancing of the relationship with our European neighbours based on co-operation and mutually beneficial economic arrangements.

Yesterday in the House the Prime Minister referred to a period of great change in Europe. There is a sense arising out of the European Council at the weekend that something very significant has happened in the United Kingdom’s relationship with the European Union. A taboo has been broken. For the first time in living memory, a Prime Minister of the United Kingdom went to an EU summit not only prepared to say no but, in the event, actually used the veto when it became necessary in our national interest. I commend the Prime Minister for sticking to his word and wielding the veto in the circumstances that he outlined in this House last week. I have to say with regret that that is not something that we have come to expect from British Governments. We have been more used to Ministers going to crucial EU meetings in recent years and coming back having to explain why the latest EU regulation or measure is being implemented despite the implications for our national interests.

It is clear that what the Prime Minister has done has gained support from people from right across the political spectrum. That may not be reflected in some of the speeches, interventions and posturing in the House, of course, but it is clear that a large number of people from all backgrounds, whether they are Tory, Labour, Liberal Democrat or support parties in Northern Ireland, agree with what the Prime Minister has done.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

May I provide my right hon. Friend with an example of that? Two of my constituents living on the Isle of Axholme wrote to me last night by e-mail to inform me that they had voted Liberal Democrat in the general election but would now vote Conservative because of our Prime Minister’s actions.

[Mr Dodds]

I am sure there will be many such messages flooding in to right hon. and hon. Members over the coming days. There is no doubt that, not for the first time, many Members are out of step with what the people think.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Lidington]

I actually think that it is a very good idea for officials, not only from the Foreign Office but from other Departments, to hear creative and constructive ideas, especially from Members of Parliament of all parties—and the all-party group on European reform includes members of the hon. Gentleman’s party, as well as members of mine—and from people outside Whitehall and government. The Foreign Office has a range of contacts with think-tanks and academics as well as with Members of Parliament, so that our policy making can be informed by creative ideas from outside. That seems to be a very sensible way of governing, and I am slightly shocked that the hon. Gentleman should appear to think that a closed cadre in Whitehall, insulated from of outside advice and influence, is the best way to proceed. If that is the thinking of the Labour party, it might explain the disastrous legacy that he and his colleagues bequeathed to this Government.

The German Chancellor’s spokesman said yesterday that Britain is one of Germany’s closest partners and one of her most important allies and friends; that we work very closely together on a number of different policy challenges, including within the context of the European Union; that what Britain and Germany share are key convictions on competitiveness and on what creates jobs, innovation and creativity in the economy; and that we will both continue to work to make the single market a joint success. President Sarkozy, with whom we have had one or two disagreements, said in an interview with Le Monde yesterday that he recalled our partnership in defence co-operation signed in November 2010 and our joint intervention in Libya, as well as our shared commitment to nuclear energy as part of a balanced overall energy policy. Our partnerships with France, Germany and all our European allies remain strong and dynamic.

We need not listen only to European leaders. The US Secretary of State was asked the other day whether the position that the Prime Minister took at the summit had caused her concern, given what the questioner termed “the historic bridge” that Britain had offered between Europe and the United States. Secretary Clinton replied in very clear terms:

“I have to say it does not. I think that the role that the UK has played in Europe will continue.”

I do not think that these fears of isolation, which for obvious reasons of vested interest the Opposition want to whip up, will turn out to have substance.

If the Opposition want a little more reassurance from someone whom they might trust a bit more than the German Chancellor’s official spokesman or the United States Secretary of State, I refer them to the comments of Lord Digby Jones. It is no good the shadow Foreign Secretary shaking his head. He was happy to serve in government alongside Lord Jones. In fact, the Labour members of that Government were happy to hail his recruitment as evidence that they were attracting a Government of all the talents and bringing in people from British business to strengthen their ranks—they certainly needed strengthening. Anyway, when asked whether Britain’s business interests would survive and flourish, Lord Jones said, “Definitely.” There is a clear view that our partnerships in Europe will continue and that the opportunities available for British business in Europe will continue to thrive.

[Andrew Percy]

Should we not try to regain ownership of this word “isolation”? Surely, it is not a bad thing to be isolated from something that is not in the country’s interest, that is bad for the United Kingdom and that the British public do not want to be a part of.

[Mr Lidington]

There was a time when Labour leaders were prepared to accept that sometimes there was a need to stand out on their own in defence of British interests. Tony Blair said, when he opposed the introduction of an EU-wide tax on savings, that if we are isolated and we are right, that is the correct position to be in, but as we know, the Leader of the Opposition told his party conference:

“I am not Tony Blair”.

We have yet another example of that inheritance now being disavowed by those who were happy to serve when the opportunity arose.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Lidington]

The terms that one is able to extract in the context of such a negotiation will be more favourable if one can negotiate as part of a bloc of 500 million consumers. What the EU was able to offer South Korea collectively was access to a market of 500 million. The UK on its own would have been able to offer access to a market of 50 million to 60 million consumers. That is not an insignificant number, but it is a tenth of the size of the European Union as a whole. That difference in scale means that European countries have greater weight and leverage when they are able to get their act together and negotiate en bloc.

The third reason I believe it remains in our national interest to stay an active member of the European Union is that membership enhances our ability to influence events abroad. On issues where there is a genuine common European interest, where the national interests of the 27 member states converge, it makes sense for those member states to act together, pool our influence and speak with a united voice. One voice representing 500 million consumers is heard more loudly in Beijing, Delhi and Brasilia than 27 separate voices. However, it is equally the case that where EU member states do not agree, it is right and proper that, as sovereign nations with our own national interests, we speak and act independently. It is also right that foreign policy and security and defence policy should remain matters where unanimous agreement is required for a European position to exist.

[Andrew Percy]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Lidington]

My hon. Friend must forgive me, but I want to press on.

Collaboration over Libya has brought in many—although not all—European states, including Italy and Belgium. In recent months, the EU has exerted collective pressure on Libya and Syria, as well as on Côte d’Ivoire and Belarus. Different European countries have different contributions to make. Poland and other eastern partners can give us a unique perspective as we seek to support the democratic movements in the middle east and north Africa, and can also improve our insight with regard to our relations with countries such as Russia and Ukraine. Spain’s influence in Latin America will continue to shape Europe’s engagement there, and Portugal is now helping European interests on the UN Security Council. If we look at the EULEX mission alongside NATO in Kosovo, the EU civilian and military missions supporting NATO elsewhere in the Balkans or the Atalanta mission to tackle piracy off the coast of Somalia, we see operations of European civilian or military experts focusing on particular areas of expertise, often in tandem with NATO, the United Nations or national forces. Those are good examples of where European countries have been able to give themselves greater clout by being willing to act collectively.

The motion in the name of the right hon. Member for Belfast North says that the British people desire “a rebalancing of the relationship with our European neighbours”, and I agree with the hon. Member for North Antrim that there is too much centralised direction of many European policies.

The Government are committed under the coalition agreement to examining the balance of competences between Britain and the European Union, and as both the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister have said, there is a good case for rebalancing competences between the EU and its member states. Clearly, this would require the agreement of all 27 member states on the basis of negotiation and agreement, and could not be achieved through a unilateral decision. We have made no commitment to a particular outcome from this review. Work has begun and it is in its early stages.

In contrast to the Government’s positive and active commitment to make a success of our EU membership and our robust defence of our national interests, we have heard nothing from Her Majesty’s official Opposition save carping and an evasion of straight answers. Yet Labour was the party that committed us to the EU bail-out mechanism. This was the party that meekly surrendered £7 billion of Britain’s budget rebate. This is the party whose leader refuses to say whether he would have signed the treaty that was before the British Prime Minister last week, but tells the BBC in an interview:

“I don’t think Brussels has got too much power”.

It is a party whose leader still yearns to join the euro, but the only certainty is that if we followed its advice, we would not just be attending EU meetings, as we would be in the queue for a bail-out, along with some of the others.

The Government are committed to a positive and active role within the European Union—on the single market, on global trade and on foreign policy. That is what is in our national interest, but we will not be afraid to stand up and resist, refusing to participate in measures where we believe that they run contrary to the national interests of the United Kingdom.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jenkin]

rose—

[Andrew Percy]

rose—

[Emma Reynolds]

I am not giving way for the moment.

As I understand it, the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change has just this evening added his voice to the chorus of criticism of the Prime Minister from Liberal Democrat Ministers so I will be interested to see whether, given that the Liberal Democrats have had three different positions in five days on this issue, they have now come to a settled position. I hope that they will oppose the motion. How could they vote for it when they are on record as saying that what happened is a bad deal for Britain?

--- Later in debate ---

[Emma Reynolds]

If the hon. Gentleman remembers, it was our Government who kept this country out of the euro.

The UK’s isolation is bad not just in economic terms, but for our influence in the world. Even the Deputy Prime Minister said on Sunday that when we stand tall in the European Union, we stand tall in Washington. But it is not only our standing in Washington that is now of concern. Political and economic power is rapidly moving south and east, to Brazil, India and China. In this new multi-polar world, it is those who harbour a fanciful, nostalgic longing for the empire who naively think that the UK could be more powerful standing alone. The only game in town to further prise open markets in emerging economies and to change the rules of the trade game, is for the UK to act within the European Union—a Union that magnifies our influence. Only this weekend, at the climate change summit in Durban, we saw that by working together with our European partners, we amplify our voice on key global challenges.

[Andrew Percy]

rose—

[Emma Reynolds]

I will give way, if the hon. Gentleman will be patient.

[Andrew Percy]

I have been very patient; I am the last one to get in.

The hon. Lady talks about the issue of clarity. Will she tell my constituents what the Labour party’s position is? Would they have agreed to what was asked on Friday? Do they support further European integration? Will they rule out membership of the euro for ever? Three simple questions, to which they want three simple answers.

[Emma Reynolds]

Last but not least, a simple answer—we are not in favour of joining the euro.

The cheerleaders who toasted the Prime Minister at the welcome home party at Chequers last Friday want out of the European Union. What was once the Eurosceptic fringe of the Conservative party has now become the mainstream, as has just been demonstrated. The Prime Minister is clearly following, rather than leading, his party. Naturally, Conservative Members are happy, albeit only for the time being. The right hon. and hon. Members who now back the Prime Minister do not agree with him that our membership of the European Union is vital to our national interest. They are the same right hon. and hon. Members that he tried to get on board when he ran for his party’s leadership. He beseeched them to “stop banging on about Europe”, but they did not obey.

I am not sure what was on the menu at Chequers, but the Prime Minister should be in no doubt that his guests have an insatiable appetite. After starters of prosciutto and cured meats, they will still want steak tartare for their main course. The Prime Minister has only earned himself a gap between the entrée and the plat principal.

The Prime Minister’s actions last week were apparently taken in the face of some unidentified threat to one part of our economy, but the real objective was to toss some extra red meat to the anti-Europeans, whose appetites have now been whetted but not sated. Had the Prime Minister spent as much time and energy speaking to our European partners in the run-up to the summit as he spent pandering to his anti-European Back Benchers, we might be in a different place now—and it would be in the national interest for us to be in a different place. However, we have a Prime Minister who puts his party’s interest before the national interest, and as a result we have a bad deal for British jobs, businesses and banks. Our country needs and deserves better leadership.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

To continue the party analogy introduced by the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), I am certainly a willing attendee, although judging by his speech he is a bit of a party pooper. I did not agree with much of what he said, but I certainly agreed with the speech by my right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) and others who have spoken from the Opposition Benches—if not always in opposition to us.

I want to mention the response from my constituents. Since the Prime Minister’s action on Friday, we have been inundated with e-mails, Twitter messages, answerphone messages and telephone calls to the office from people—people who voted for all different political parties—saying that the Prime Minister was absolutely right to draw a line in the sand. It has been interesting listening to the people who criticise us on this issue and the language that they use. It is the usual sort of Euro-fanaticism that we hear from them, the usual patronising guff, as I called it the last time I spoke.

[Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is right. The Prime Minister used the veto to stop this European integration. Sitting in the European Parliament, of course, one finds that people are ever driving for greater union. This is one Prime Minister who has actually stood up for the British people. We must commend that.

[Andrew Percy]

I could not agree more with my hon. Friend, who, having been not at the heart of the EU but certainly present, knows a lot more about its workings than I would ever wish to know.

I was talking about the language used by those who object to or criticise the Prime Minister’s actions despite having no alternative plan. They say that it is ill thought out, that we are ill informed and ignorant and that we do not understand the issues. My response is this: we understand the issues perfectly well, we understand how the EU works; we just do not like it—and you know what, Mr Deputy Speaker? They need to wake up because the public do not like it either, if the response to opinion polls and in our constituency offices and e-mail inboxes is anything to go by.

Of course, these are exactly the same people who argued for us to be in the euro. We hear this nonsense from Labour Members that they were the party that kept us out of the euro. They were not at all. They would have had us in there had it not been made so politically inconvenient and difficult for them. That is why they spent so much money trying to prepare us for the euro. I suspect that quite a few of them, if they were honest, would have us in the euro at the first possible opportunity. So we will not take any criticism from the Opposition Benches—I mean the Labour Benches, not the finer Benches occupied by Irish Members.

[Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend think that the Leader of the Opposition would have been more successful at delivering a result during last week’s talks in Brussels, given that every time his party went into talks it said yes to everything? Surely, the fact that for once we have said no might make people sit up and listen.

[Andrew Percy]

Love thy neighbour, I say, and the Leader of the Opposition is my constituency neighbour, so I do not wish to speak ill of him, but I entirely associate myself with my hon. Friend’s words.

I want to concentrate on the Opposition’s position before saying a few words about the Minister’s response. The hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds) did not answer my three questions: she did not say whether the Opposition have ruled out membership of the euro for ever; she did not say whether they believe that we have integrated too far and whether they are against integrating further or ceding more powers to the EU; and she did not answer my third question—one posed by many Members on both sides of the House—about what they would have done last Friday. There is this fanciful configuration under which they would have grabbed a deal—because the negotiating skills of the Leader of the Opposition are so renowned—that was good not just for Europe and the euro but for Britain. I simply do not buy it, and I strongly suspect that the British public do not either.

I want to say a few words about our valued coalition colleagues and their response over the past few days. I used to agree with a lot of what the Deputy Prime Minister said. Indeed, I clutch in my hand—although one must not use a prop, Mr Deputy Speaker—a photocopy of a Liberal Democrat election leaflet. They are mercifully thin on the ground in Brigg and Goole because we have no Liberal Democrat councillors. It is headed, “It’s time for a real referendum on Europe” and continues:

“It’s been over thirty years since the British people last had a vote on Britain’s membership of the European Union. That’s why the Liberal Democrats want a real referendum on Europe…But Labour don’t want the people to have their say. The Conservatives only support a limited referendum…Why won’t they give the people a say in a real referendum?”

The leaflet reads: “It’s time for a real referendum”.

[Martin Horwood]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Andrew Percy]

No, I have heard the hon. Gentleman’s explanation of this in the past, when he talked about a referendum at some time in the future, but this leaflet says very clearly, “It’s time for a real referendum”. People can even send it back to the real referendum petition, 4 Cowley street, London.

[Martin Horwood]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Andrew Percy]

I am not going to give way, because I have heard the nonsense about the Liberal Democrats’ manifesto commitment on this issue before, which was all about how there would be a referendum at some point in the future. However, I am afraid that the quotation given by the Deputy Prime Minister on this leaflet—he is named as “Lib Dem Leader Nick Clegg”—says:

“It’s time to give the British people a real referendum on Britain’s membership of the European Union.”

I can assume only that when this leaflet went to the printers, the bit saying, “At some point in the future, but not any time soon,” was missed off. Some people would say that the Deputy Prime Minister—

[Martin Horwood]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Andrew Percy]

I am not going to give way, so give up.

[Martin Horwood]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Is it in order for someone repeatedly to attack Members in the Chamber, and by implication the Liberal Democrat parliamentary party, and not give way when that is challenged?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

I think one would say that it is a political comment rather than an attack. As both parties are joined together, I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would take it not as an attack, but as a political comment.

[Andrew Percy]

I am upset if any of my valued coalition partners thought that I was in any way besmirching their characters individually or attacking them. I am not: they are valued partners in this enjoyable coalition that we find ourselves in. However, I have said enough about the election literature.

Some people would say that the Deputy Prime Minister has acted disgracefully in the last few days. I am not going to say that. Some would say that he has acted appallingly, and I am not going to say that either. I will leave it to others to comment on that. What I would say in conclusion, however, is that I heard the Minister’s comments, and I was warmed by much of what he said. We need a little more detail about whether the institutions will be used, but I hope that last Friday shows that a line has been drawn in the sand and that we have said, “We’ve had enough integration, and the British public have had enough.” Whatever the other arguments, we have to accept that the British public are not where the political elite are in this country, but are much further on in the argument. They have looked at the European Union and they do not like it. That is why it is time we gave them a say, or at the very least ensured that nothing is given away to Brussels.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

I remind the next speaker that we have only two minutes to go until the wind-ups.

Middle East and North Africa

Andrew Percy Excerpts

Wednesday 9th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

I welcome what the right hon. Gentleman says about the legacy issues. Of course, we will continue to work with him and others on these subjects. We have no evidence that what he describes would be the result. That underlines, of course, the importance of a negotiated solution. Passing motions in the United Nations will not resolve the issue, but a successful negotiation between Israel and Palestine would do so.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

The Foreign Secretary’s statement seemed to focus very much on the actions of Israel rather than on the actions of the Palestinian Authority, which continues to threaten the state of Israel and not to do enough about terrorist attacks on Israel. However, may I urge him to look again at whether we abstain? Surely we should be voting against this unilateral and provocative act that will do nothing to bring anybody to the negotiating table.

[Mr Hague]

We will not vote against it, for the reasons I gave in my statement. I disagree with my hon. Friend a little on this. In recent years, under President Abbas, the Palestinian Authority has done a very good job of building up many of the attributes of statehood. In particular, the work of Prime Minister Salam Fayyad has been excellent in this regard. We must not lose sight of that. On the other hand, of course, there is Gaza and the behaviour of Hamas; the Palestinian Authority is not in control of that situation, so I can meet my hon. Friend halfway on that. The Palestinians have done a good job of building up many of the attributes of a state, and that is why we could not countenance voting against this resolution.

National Referendum on the European Union

Andrew Percy Excerpts

Monday 24th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

That is one of the reasons I am giving.

My fifth reason is that the concept of holding a three-way referendum as set out in the motion is innovative but seriously flawed. Leaving aside for a moment all the uncertainty and difficulty which would occur in the run-up to a referendum, which is my final point, if we are serious about this we have to think carefully about what would actually happen in a three-way vote. It is highly unlikely that any one of the three options would receive more than 50% of the votes. If, for the sake of argument, 40% of people voted to stay in, 30% voted to leave, and 30% voted to renegotiate, would that mean that we stayed in without any renegotiation at all? Is this to be a first-past-the-post referendum or a preferential voting referendum? If it is to be a preferential voting referendum, we have just rejected that system—in a referendum. Perhaps we would have to have a referendum on the voting system for the referendum itself.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

rose—

[Mr Hague]

I will give way again in a moment.

If we voted to leave the European Union, would that mean that, like Norway, we were in the European Free Trade Association and in the European Economic Area but still paying towards the EU budget, or, like Switzerland, not in the European Economic Area? If we voted to renegotiate

“based on trade and co-operation”,

as the motion says, does that mean that we would be in the single market, or not; still subject to its rules, or not? Does “co-operation” mean that we still work together on a united position on Iran, Syria and other foreign policy positions, or not? When we had renegotiated, would we, given the wide range of possible outcomes, need another referendum on the outcome of the negotiation?

I point these things out because there is a reason why a referendum is normally held on a specific proposition with a yes or no answer, and I believe that any future referendum must be held on that basis, not as a multiple choice among vaguely defined propositions.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)]

I understand that I have only five minutes, so I will take only two interventions—if people want to intervene—if colleagues do not mind.

I would like to address first the process and principle of the motion and then present-day Europe, if colleagues will forgive the alliteration. The origins of today’s debate lie in the Government’s democratic outreach, through e-petitions. More than 100,000 people signed an e-petition calling for a debate in Parliament on this issue. The Backbench Business Committee then decided that to be the right debate to bring before Parliament and, as Members will know, that Committee is elected by the House. This debate has not been brought about by a small or large number of Conservative Back Benchers, therefore; it is a response to the will and the voice of the British people.

Also, it is wrong to try to frame this debate as calling for an immediate referendum or, indeed, for an in-or-out referendum. That is clearly not the case, as is self-evident from the motion, which is mainstream and inclusive. The motion calls for a Bill and has a timetable referring to this Session. As colleagues will know, that Bill might not come forward for another 18 months and would be subject to the same drafting, the same consultation and the same amendments and new clauses as any other Bill. Therefore, to suggest that the motion necessarily reflects what would be in the Bill is disingenuous at best. Any subsequent referendum would also be consulted on with the Electoral Commission in the normal way and would not necessarily reflect the motion before the House today. This is not about an immediate referendum—I would not support an immediate referendum—nor is it about an in-or-out referendum, which I would not support at this stage. I support a trade-plus relationship with Europe; let us see how Europe responds. If it does not respond, perhaps the British people in future will demand that this Parliament move to an in-or-out referendum.

[Andrew Percy]

Is not the point that as far as pro-Europeans are concerned there will never be a right time for a referendum? Indeed, we could see constituents in Scotland voting on their relationship with the Union with England, while our constituents in England will be denied any say about our relationship with Europe.

[Mark Pritchard]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point, as always. We have had referendums on a range of issues, whether in Northern Ireland, London, Wales or Scotland—indeed, referendums on anything but the European issue. I hope that that will change.

Some have accused some Government Members—and even some Opposition Members—of making Europe an issue. I would remind the House that Europe is an issue today because Europe is making itself an issue, not those on our Back Benches. On the principle, millions of people have never had a say on the European question, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) said, because they either had not been born or were not old enough to vote in 1975. Even among those who were old enough to vote, many thought that they were signing up for a common market, not a political union.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Redwood]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Andrew Percy]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Mr Walter]

I will not give way any more; I really need to get on.

The European Commission and the European Parliament have ideas and aspirations that sit more than awkwardly with the concept that we all have of a sovereign state. There are those in Brussels who see national Governments and national Parliaments as a nuisance and who think that life would be much simpler if we decided everything at a European level, but thank God we live in a democracy. Thank God we have Members of the European Parliament who are prepared to stand up for the British interest and, more particularly, that we have Ministers and a Prime Minister who can go to Brussels, argue our case and succeed.

What is it that my colleagues and friends want from any new treaty? Have we not had enough of treaties? Can we not at least make the one that we have work? What would a new treaty do? Would it relegate us to the European Free Trade Association or the European economic area? Would it get us the Norwegian deal? They argue that the EU would have to give us access to the single market—yes, but at what price? Norway does not have a free ride in its access to the single market. It does not contribute to the common agricultural policy but it jolly well pays its share to other areas of the EU budget and it gets absolutely nothing back. What is more, its price for access means that it too implements all EU directives—in fact, it has a better record than us, with 99.6% of EU directives having been implemented by the Norwegian Parliament—but the difference is that it has no Ministers at the table when they are discussed. It has no commissioner, no parliamentary representation in co-decision and it has to accept whatever Brussels sends. It is not even a case of, “Take it or leave it;” it is, “Take it, or else.”

We cannot blame Brussels and the wicked foreigners for all our woes. To quote the Prime Minister,

“We are all in this together”.

Europe needs Britain and Britain needs Europe. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary struck the right note earlier. We are in Europe, our history is European and our destiny is European. As far as I am concerned, we are here to stay and I beg my colleagues to reject the motion.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Let me be clear: I do not support today’s motion because I believe that it is in Britain’s national interest for us to be involved in the European Union. As has been widely acknowledged by many in this debate and elsewhere, half of Britain’s exports go to the rest of the European Union, and 3.5 million jobs in this country are dependent on our trade with our partners in the European Union. My own constituency is a former mining constituency where manufacturing is now very important. If Britain were to withdraw from the European Union, or even substantially to renegotiate its terms of membership, it would be bad economic news for the people I represent.

[Andrew Percy]

I am interested to hear what the hon. Gentleman says. However, the argument is not about whether we are in or out of Europe but whether we have a referendum. If he is so convinced of his argument, why is he frightened to allow the British people to express their view?

--- Later in debate ---

[Martin Horwood]

I thank the hon. Gentleman, but I have with me the list of how Members voted on our proposal for an in/out referendum at the time when we said it was appropriate, and I do not think his name is on the list of the Ayes. A few Labour Members did break ranks, however.

[Andrew Percy]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Martin Horwood]

I am sorry, I will not give way again, otherwise I will be out of time.

May I also remind some Conservative Members of what was promised in their own manifesto? It promised that any proposed future treaty that transferred areas of power or competences would be subject to a referendum lock. Of course, they actually got that in the European Union Act 2011, which we all voted for only a matter of weeks ago.

[Andrew Percy]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way on that point?

[Martin Horwood]

No, I will not, I am sorry.

Let us look at some of the options on offer in the motion. We have the renegotiation option, which, frankly, is a fiction. What kind of negotiation would take place if we actually tried to do that? What price would Monsieur Sarkozy or Frau Merkel extract in those negotiations for the disruption and risk that would be posed to the working of the Union? Why would the renegotiation succeed if the other 26 member states did not support it, and why would they support it if the only issue of debate was Britain’s terms of membership? That is why it is such a nonsense to extract renegotiation from any other fundamental shift in relationships that would be happening at the time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)]

This is an interesting debate, and I apologise for having missed a few of the contributions. It is also a strange debate, however, in that many of the arguments being proposed in support of the motion do not, in fact, support it. My good friend the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash) is not in the Chamber at present. He talked about the £40 billion trade deficit, but anyone who voted for the Common Market voted for that to happen, as, unfortunately, it is inevitable in a free market economy. For instance, 73% of our chemical industry is now owned by companies that are not based in the UK, and that will end up against us in the trade figures.

My hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) is also no longer here. She urged us to put our own logical or ideological assessments before the instructions of the Whips. I have always done that, which is why I am going to vote against the motion. It is not logical to vote for it.

My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) has slipped away. He is not so much a friend as an ongoing further education project for me. I pointed out to him that the only way to get any of what he wants is to invoke article 50 of the Lisbon treaty, which states that we can leave the European Union. That has been put in place very deliberately. However, article 49 states that any country that leaves will be dealt with as if it is a new applicant, with no automatic right to rejoin and no special advantages. All this nonsense about renegotiating, repositioning and working on reform does not apply, therefore, and only a straight in/out referendum would be relevant. We could act upon that, but everything else would be left entirely to chance and to negotiations in the European Council and the European Parliament. That is the reality.

[Andrew Percy]

Surely the hon. Gentleman accepts that we can agree a new treaty that does exactly what many Members on the Government Benches wish. We can leave it to the treaty to achieve that.

[Michael Connarty]

Let me give the following advice to the hon. Gentleman, and to the Scottish National party Member who is present, the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart). The SNP thinks that if Scotland votes to separate from the rest of the United Kingdom, it can walk straight into the EU, but that is not the case. Scotland would get into the EU only if it agreed to one major condition: it would have to join the eurozone.

If the UK wanted to get back in, we would have to join the eurozone too. That is the reality, because that is now a condition for entering the EU, and it has been since before the Lisbon treaty. The position is as follows, therefore: we would have to decide in a referendum whether we wanted to be out of the EU, and if we wanted to go back in after that, we would then be at a great disadvantage because a decision would not come into force until after two years. It would have to be ratified by the other states; it would go ahead only if the European Parliament were to agree to it; and there would then be a vote to agree it in the Council under qualified majority terms. We are therefore tied up in knots by the Lisbon treaty, which I have described as a tipping point.

I am glad to see that the mover of the motion, the hon. Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall), is back in his place. He argued that the closure of an accident and emergency department in his constituency was down to the European Union. If there is such a closure in a Member’s area, the people who can deal with it are sitting on the Government Front Bench. The hon. Gentleman should ask SNP Members about that, because of what happened after their party was elected with a clear majority in the Scottish Government elections. The first thing it did was overturn a proposal to close two accident and emergency units: one in Monklands and the other in Ayrshire. That illustrates the power of Government in this context. Such issues are nothing to do with the European Union, therefore, so the hon. Gentleman should not have made that point.

Some Members have also said that the call for a referendum expresses the settled will of the people. I respect, and am very fond of, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel), but that is a very misleading claim to make. If we get 100,000 people writing in to say we should have a vote on a referendum on capital punishment, that would be more likely to be carried than the vote on this referendum. Are we really saying that 100,000 signatures would trigger a debate and vote in the House on a referendum on capital punishment? This is not about the settled will of the people, therefore. It just so happens that a lot of people have sent in some signatures on blogs, and I do not want to pay particular attention to them because I think that it is important that, like the Tunisian people, we respect parliamentary democracy.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nick Boles (Grantham and Stamford) (Con)]

I have listened with great attention to all of the speeches for the past five hours, with the occasional break to take in and then expel a little liquid. I can tell the House that the passion and the idealism, and even the personal courage, has all been on one side of the debate—the side of those who support the motion.

I agree with much that those hon. Ladies and hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House believe and want. I agree with them that Governments of all stripes have given too much power to the EU; that we need to renegotiate the terms of our membership, so that it focuses more on economic matters of trade and co-operation, and less on other issues that Europe was not set up to deal with; and that the British people should have the final say.

However, I will not vote with them tonight for the following reason. Although they have the passion, the idealism and the personal courage, I am afraid that they lack good sense. There will be only one time in the foreseeable future when we can hold a referendum on our membership of the EU—it has been 40 years since the last one, and we are likely to get only one shot in the next 40—and we must use it well. We must hold that referendum when it is most likely to assist us in getting the deal from Europe that we want.

[Andrew Percy]

I can predict exactly what will happen. If we propose a referendum at a time of economic growth, everyone will say, “Now is not the time to have a referendum, because everything is going so swimmingly.”

[Nick Boles]

I thank my hon. Friend, but that was not my point. My point on timing is simply this: we need the promise—or, indeed, the threat—of that referendum to persuade our European partners to give us some of what we want in that negotiation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Burley]

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

It is clear that what was put to the people in 1975—we should remember that they voted yes—was the Common Market, but the European Union that exists today would be unrecognisable to those who voted then. When Britain joined the Common Market, it signed up to a free trade agreement. Since then, the power of European institutions has changed beyond all recognition. I am delighted that the Government have enshrined in law that a referendum must be held before any further powers are ceded to Brussels. This is a major step—one that I have supported with enthusiasm.

Frankly, given the EU’s propensities for creating new treaties, I suspect it will not be long before the people get the vote that they desire and deserve. That vote will be important. If the public vote in favour of a future treaty, it will rule out for another generation any thought of us ever leaving the EU. If the public vote to reject it, I believe it would be difficult, if not impossible, for there not to be a subsequent vote on our withdrawal. Given that the referendum that I want is inevitable, as a result of the laws passed by the Conservatives, I must think carefully about the current motion and its impact on the people of Cannock Chase.

[Andrew Percy]

I respect my hon. Friend’s views. Like him, I was born after the last referendum on the matter, but the problem with his argument is that it does not give us the opportunity to have a say on whether we want to be in the EU. That is what my and his generation want to have. We have never been asked that before, and it is about time that we were.

[Mr Burley]

I think that our generation will be given that choice.

I must consider the impact that passing this motion would have on my constituents. That is the key point. Business men have told me that there are signs that give cause for optimism, but that the recovery is fragile.

Commonwealth Partners (Resources and Co-operation)

Andrew Percy Excerpts

Wednesday 12th October 2011 Westminster Hall

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. The subject of this debate is sharing resources and co-operation with Commonwealth partners, which I feel passionate about. I do not think that, in recent years, this country has necessarily put the sort of emphasis that we should have on our relationship with our Commonwealth partners, so I would like a response from the Minister.

It is important to recognise what the Commonwealth is and the important role that it plays around the world, especially in our own country. It is made up of 54 sovereign nations and contains 31% of the global population—about 2 billion people—more than half of whom are 25 or under, so the Commonwealth and its population really are the future. It contains the world’s largest, smallest, richest and poorest countries, and its members span six continents and oceans, from Africa, Asia, the Americas and, of course, Europe. There are 44 Commonwealth countries in the G77, which will be an increasingly important body, and five in the G20—Australia, Canada, India, South Africa and the United Kingdom. Nineteen of the 39 African Union members are from the Commonwealth. Similarly, 10 nations in the Pacific Islands Forum are Commonwealth nations. Indeed, even two countries in the European Union—Malta and ourselves—are members of the Commonwealth.

The Commonwealth is also a massive trade body, with $3 trillion of trade taking place within it each year. We hear a lot about our trading relationship within Europe, but considering the fact that the Commonwealth includes economies such as India’s, it is clear that the possibilities for trade growth within the Commonwealth are massive.

Commonwealth countries comprise a third of the destinations for our exports. When both trading partners are Commonwealth members, the value of trade is likely to be a third to half more than when one or both are non-Commonwealth. Indeed, five of the top 10 countries in which to do business are Commonwealth countries. As a body, the Commonwealth might be rooted in history, but its best potential lies in the future.

Don McKinnon, a former Secretary-General of the Commonwealth, has said:

“One of the standard misconceptions about the Commonwealth is that it is merely a ‘relic of the Empire’... The truth is that the Commonwealth is a unique organization, which provides an international forum where each member country can have its voice heard and increase its weight in world affairs. It is a family of nations, whose members share not only a common identity, but common values and a common sense of purpose.”

I would argue that it also shares a common future.

The Commonwealth has shifting focuses—from foreign affairs, particularly the promotion of democracy and human rights, to science and technology, and the role of women, which has been its focus this year—and it plays a vital role in education. I know from my former profession as a teacher that Commonwealth teachers and students are involved in strong education programmes and links. It is to be regretted, however, that Commonwealth citizens who come to this country are forced to pay fees to study in UK universities that European Union citizens do not.

We get all that from the Commonwealth for just 20p per citizen a year, as opposed to the £54 a year it costs us to be a member of the European Union. I promise to move on from the EU, but there has been a perception in recent years—this was certainly the perception in many of our Commonwealth partner nations—that when we joined the EU, we in some ways turned our back on the Commonwealth. I pay tribute to the Government, particularly the Foreign Secretary, who in recent months has made it clear that the Commonwealth is very much a part, and an increasingly important one, of our foreign policy as we progress. That should not be viewed as an EU-versus-Commonwealth argument, but it is clear that, when we entered the EU, there was a perception that in some way we left behind the Commonwealth. I have my own view on the EU, but we need not get into that today.

The Commonwealth has a huge role to play in aid and development overseas. Although that is not strictly part of the Minister’s portfolio, it is important that we refresh ourselves with some of the relevant statistics. India provides about £7 million a year to 19 African members. Indeed, Australia has recently increased its commitment to Commonwealth countries in Africa, which is something to which the UK Government are also committed.

I mentioned trade briefly in my introductory remarks. The Commonwealth is an incredibly important player in trade internationally. It is important that we as a Government demonstrate that, while our trading relationship with the EU is important, there are huge opportunities available to us in the Commonwealth, which is, in itself, collectively responsible for more than 20% of world trade, about 20% of investment, and approximately 20% of the world’s gross domestic product. Between them, Commonwealth nations imported some $2.3 trillion-worth of goods and exported $2.1 trillion-worth in 2008 alone. We should promote intra-Commonwealth trade and ensure that the Commonwealth plays a key role in new international markets, particularly considering the emergence of economies in Asia, Africa and Latin America. India will be an economic and democratic powerhouse. It is in the Commonwealth, so we have links and relationships, and could be making so much more of them.

Turning to the Minister’s responsibilities, the greatest potential for growth might lie in foreign policy and the Commonwealth’s soft power. I hope to hear from him what the UK’s vision is for the Commonwealth and any common foreign policy aims. I suppose that the advantage of a common foreign policy agenda in the Commonwealth is that that does not come through diktat, as might be true of other organisations. It is about coming together and sharing broad aims and principles, and working towards them. Moreover, there is no infringement on any nation’s sovereignty.

I and many others have said that the Commonwealth embodies the diversity of race, ethnicity, religion, political institutions and liberalism that characterises the reality of globalisation. Opportunities are available. By working together, we could have a major impact on international affairs and developmental issues in particular, which is something to which the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting reaffirmed its commitment.

I want to press the Minister on the Government’s vision for the future of the Commonwealth. I have mentioned sharing resources. Discussions have taken place between other Commonwealth countries—perhaps we have been involved in some of them—about this country’s massive network of overseas missions and foreign embassies. The UK alone has, I think, more than 300 foreign missions. Canada, which is a country with which I am acquainted, has more than 260. That massive international Commonwealth network offers us huge potential, particularly at a time of fiscal restraint, when we are making tough decisions about our overseas missions. In this country, we do not necessarily always get the sense of the importance of the Commonwealth that we get when we visit other Commonwealth countries. A Canadian passport states, as clear as day, that if the passport holder needs help overseas they should head to a Canadian embassy or, if none exists, to a British embassy. There is the potential for us to share some of our resources for foreign missions with like-minded nations that are also making tough fiscal decisions.

[Karl MᶜCartney (Lincoln) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend and near geographical neighbour on the subject of his debate. He has touched on a few Commonwealth issues that have chimed with me. For example, he just mentioned passports. Through my role with the Sir Keith Park memorial campaign, I am aware that many people from New Zealand, South Africa and other countries that are part of the Commonwealth and that helped us during the second world war—such countries feel an affinity to our nation—think that the changes made to visa rules in recent years under the previous Labour Government have not treated them very well. Obviously, I hope he agrees that it is time to put back what they have given us over the years and to treat them in the way that fellow Commonwealth members should be treated.

[Andrew Percy]

I thank my hon. Friend and next-door-but-one or two neighbour—anyway, he is a fellow Lincolnshire Member—for that intervention.

When I return to the United Kingdom, I am offended that people are pushed along through the European Union channel. Latvians, Lithuanians, Poles, Germans and French people are able to walk through those channels, but our own brethren from Canada, Australia and other Commonwealth countries are made to feel very much like foreigners. Of course, Commonwealth citizens are not foreigners when they come to this country, nor are we foreigners when we visit Commonwealth countries. That is not something I was going to raise with the Minister, but it is a good point that I hope will be heard by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, and as my hon. Friend says, it is about time that we treated those fellow Commonwealth citizens with dignity and respect. We should at least put them on an equal footing with other citizens.

[Jessica Lee (Erewash) (Con)]

I thank my hon. Friend for securing this important debate. We have mentioned the point about passport control. Is it not also right that, with the Queen’s forthcoming diamond jubilee, this is the perfect opportunity for us to reassert our relationship with Commonwealth countries, particularly in terms of economic resources and co-operation?

[Andrew Percy]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. The diamond jubilee next year is an absolutely fantastic opportunity for us to show that.

The Commonwealth is rooted in history, but it is also about the future. Let us consider the statistics on the percentage of the world’s population, particularly young people, and on international trade, investment and where those emerging markets are. Let us park what is happening in the eurozone and the collapse of European economies and look to where the future is. The future is in those markets and in those regions of the world where the Commonwealth has links, both historical and actual, that no other organisation or international body has, with the possible exception of the United Nations, although that is variable. There is a chance for the Government to restate their absolute commitment to the Commonwealth.

In the two or three minutes remaining, I shall put my questions to the Minister. I apologise for not being able to send him my questions in advance, but I ended up putting this information together at a late stage because of various clashes. What is the Government’s vision for the Commonwealth? What progress has been made on the Foreign Secretary’s 2010 statement that the FCO would

“lead a co-ordinated cross Whitehall approach to help the Commonwealth achieve its potential and which underlines the United Kingdom’s commitment to this unique global organisation”?

I would like to get a sense from the Government of what areas of policy co-operation they feel could best help to promote the values of the Commonwealth and those elements of economic development and trade that are so important. Given the fiscal pressures on the United Kingdom and other countries, has the FCO yet considered sharing foreign missions and other resources internationally with our Commonwealth partners? The research paper “UK Defence and Security Policy: A New Approach?”, published in January, contains the following Government quote:

“We want to strengthen the Commonwealth as a focus for promoting democratic values and development”.

We would all agree with that and I hope to hear the Minister’s view on achieving it.

As my hon. Friends said in their interventions, there is the potential for the Commonwealth to move forward and be one of the most important bodies internationally during the next few decades, particularly given the development taking place there. While bearing in mind the United Kingdom’s relationship with Europe, its transatlantic relationships and so on, we need to ensure that at the heart of policy making is a commitment to working to improve and further develop Commonwealth relationships. The previous Government did not seem to pay much attention to the Commonwealth—the fact that no Opposition Members are here perhaps suggests that that is still the case—but this Government think differently. I hope that the Minister will take on board some of my points. I look forward to his response.

Palestine and the United Nations

Andrew Percy Excerpts

Thursday 15th September 2011 Commons Chamber

[Alistair Burt]

I take the hon. Gentleman’s point. The barriers to progress are many, and they are very much about trust and confidence as well as the legacy of negotiations in the past. A situation where one side proclaims victory and the other feels defeat will not help anyone, no matter what the subject matter might be. Let us therefore try to work towards a situation next week where a resolution will not bring that about, which is what many parties are seeking to achieve.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

I welcome the Minister’s cautious approach on this issue. As said by other hon. Members, there is no way that a unilateral declaration of statehood can make up for negotiations. There is a risk of the issue becoming a battering ram for those who seek the delegitimisation of Israel, so will he give us an assurance that the British Government will take no part in anything that seeks to do that?

[Alistair Burt]

I can assure my hon. Friend that neither this Government nor the previous one had any truck with the delegitimisation of Israel, and they both took many steps to reject those who tried to project such an image—and that will continue. Ultimately, the relationships between the rest of the world and Israel and, indeed, the rest of the world and the Palestinians will be much affected by the way in which they can work together to get the agreement that we all seek. We will do everything in our power to encourage that.

Africa and the Middle East

Andrew Percy Excerpts

Wednesday 29th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

President Assad must reform or step aside. If we are to maintain international unity of pressure on Syria, we must be careful in how we phrase such things. That is the right position for the United Kingdom to take, particularly as a Security Council resolution is still on the table, which we would like to push forward if the situation in Syria continues to be so dire. I am confident that we have taken the right position.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

We all want a negotiated settlement to the middle east conflict, but given that Hamas continues to attack Israel and to manipulate and undermine any direct negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, what more can we do with our international partners to ensure that Hamas accepts the Quartet principles and comes to the negotiating table?

Oral Answers to Questions

Andrew Percy Excerpts

Tuesday 14th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

Mr Speaker,

“peace cannot be imposed on the parties to the conflict. No vote at the United Nations will ever create an independent Palestinian state.”

They are not my words, but those of President Obama. Might not moving too quickly towards a unilateral declaration of statehood undermine moves towards peace entirely, and should we not be seeking negotiations towards an agreement between the two parties outside the UN?

[Mr Hague]

My hon. Friend will have heard in my answers that we have placed our emphasis strongly on that. There is a need for a return to negotiations by both sides, and now that President Obama has made his speech about 1967 borders, I hope that Palestinians will take that approach. We have already talked about the Israeli approach.

Oral Answers to Questions

Andrew Percy Excerpts

Tuesday 15th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

The hon. Gentleman underlines what I said—that the condemnation of the killings at the weekend is shared across the House—and he makes the powerful point that peace in the middle east will be built on contact between citizens and civil society as well as on the decisions of political leaders. I certainly join him in congratulating those organisations on their work. We also urge Israeli and Palestinian leaders to make the most of that work and to seize the opportunities in the coming weeks to advance the peace process.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

No doubt the Palestinian Authority has made some genuine progress towards its road map obligations, but has the Foreign Secretary had a chance to assess the role of the Palestinians in inciting the sort of attacks that we saw last weekend?

[Mr Hague]

I am sure that it is not the Palestinian Authority who incite attacks of that kind, which my hon. Friend might see if he looks at what Prime Minister Salam Fayyad has done to build the attributes of a Palestinian state on the west bank. The last thing he wants is incidents of that kind. Of course, we do not know who incited those events, but I feel confident that it was not the Prime Minister and the President of the Palestinian Authority.

European Union Bill

Andrew Percy Excerpts

Tuesday 1st February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

I do not intend to speak for long; I just want to make a few observations about the new clause.

I listened intently to my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone), who will know from our communications that I have some concerns about how the new clause would work. I have some sympathy with what my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) said about the new clause’s unintended consequences, but I take a slightly different view from him as I think that it is worth supporting, if for no other reason than to send a message to Ministers about what many people in my constituency and of my generation feel about the European Union. I was not born when we last had a referendum on the EU—I am a few years younger than the proposer of the new clause. My generation has never had the opportunity to express its view at the ballot box on the EU as an institution.

[Mr Hollobone]

Actually, nobody has had the chance to express their view on the European Union, because it was not the European Union in 1975—it was the common market.

[Andrew Percy]

I stand corrected. Many of my constituents who took part in that referendum, including my own parents—at least one of them was sound enough to vote no—tell me that it was not what they voted for. My hon. Friend is entirely right to correct me.

My generation has had no opportunity through the ballot box to express a view on whether we should remain a member of the European Union, because broadly speaking both parties have always supported membership. My view is firm—I do not think that we should remain a member—but I am not arrogant enough to suggest that it is for me to dictate to the British public. I simply want the British public at some point to have a say on whether we should remain a member of what has become a very interesting institution—as one hon. Member called it.

[Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con)]

Over the past few days, I have had nearly 100 e-mails and letters about forests, but since 7 May I have not had a single letter or e-mail about withdrawal from the European Union. This debate shows the difference of opinion across the country, and the genius and magic of this place that it matches Members so closely to their constituents in their passions and needs.

[Andrew Percy]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. I would be happy to take him to Goole, where he could talk to people in my community who are concerned about the large amount of immigration resulting from our membership.

[Dr McCrea]

On the point about the letters and postbag, how many letters has the hon. Gentleman received in support of the European Union?

[Andrew Percy]

The answer is fairly simple: a big, fat zero.

[Mrs Main]

If we are going to judge from our postbags, we would not be having a referendum on the alternative vote system, which has been mentioned to me by only one person—a local Liberal Democrat, who said, “You’ll never again be able to say, ‘Nobody has ever mentioned AV to me’”. We cannot use the postbag of my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Ben Gummer) as some sort of barometer of opinion.

[Andrew Percy]

All we would end up debating from my postbag is the state of our roads following the recent cold weather—but that is not how politics works.

I have been led away from my line of argument, which is that it is time that the people had a say on the EU. As I said in response to my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Ben Gummer), many people in communities such as Goole, which has seen large amounts of immigration as a result of EU expansion, would say, “Lots of people come here to fill jobs people here won’t do. They come here to work incredibly hard, but we have had such a mass influx, and nobody asked us for our permission through the ballot box for the extension of immediate rights to come to this country and work without any requirements or immigration controls.” Nobody asked the British public, who are rightly angry about that, and that is why they wish to have a referendum.

[John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman, with whom I share a boundary, for giving way. Is he aware that his Government, whom he so vigorously supports, are maintaining the current level of European immigration over five years, with an extra 700,000 projected by the Office for Budget Responsibility? Government Members seem unwilling to discuss that in the House.

[Andrew Percy]

The hon. Gentleman—my neighbour on my southern border—makes an interesting point. Thanks to what was given away by the previous Government, it is pretty much impossible to do a great deal on this issue, which is one reason why we now either accept a mass influx of uncontrolled immigration or we get out of the European Union. That is really the only choice that the public have.

There are some technical problems with the new clause. If we had an in/out referendum following the rejection of an initial referendum, that would lead to problems with the debate on the first referendum. It would probably become a debate about whether we should have an in/out referendum, which would be undesirable. I mean no disrespect to the genius of my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough when I say that new clause 11 is not perfect. However, from my point of view, I could not vote against anything that introduced an in/out referendum, which is why I shall be supporting this imperfect but well-meant new clause.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hollobone]

I was honoured to be asked to add my name to the new clause tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone). I, too, would like to celebrate his genius not only in drafting the clause, but in taking advice from the Clerks and outdoing the Government Front-Bench team in having such a long debate on the provision this evening. He has worked tirelessly to get this issue debated on the Floor of the House, and I would like to congratulate him.

I am proud to say on behalf of my Kettering constituents that I am in favour of an in/out referendum and that if there were one, I would vote to leave the European Union. I have absolutely no doubt that if that issue were put to my constituents, a majority would vote to leave the EU. That would not necessarily always have been the case. Had there been a referendum 10 or 15 years ago, there might well have been a majority for staying in. I have no doubt that a majority of voters in the Kettering constituency would have voted to stay in the Common Market in the referendum of 1975. Now, however, people are so fed up with European issues and with the effect Europe is having on their country and their way of life that we have crossed over so that there would no longer be an overwhelming majority in favour of staying in. The majority would want to leave so that Britain can be a proud, self-confident nation once again, without having to pay a massive annual membership fee—soon rising to £10 billion a year—and without having to open our borders to all and sundry from across the European Union, allowing them to flood to these shores.

Immigration is a European issue. It did not used to be, but it is now. People in my constituency and across the country are fed up with the numbers of people coming into our country from abroad and fed up with uncontrolled immigration from the European Union. Frankly, my Kettering voters feel let down by the political establishment that our being in the European Union should have been allowed to take over so many aspects of our lives.

[Andrew Percy]

Does my hon. Friend share my embarrassment at the very idea that people from Australia, Canada and New Zealand—our Commonwealth brethren —are made to wait at our borders while we have absolutely no control over people coming here from 20-odd countries in Europe?

[Mr Hollobone]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that intervention because he has hit the nail on the head. In the few times I have had the misfortune to go abroad, whenever I come back into this country, I always try to do so without coming through the European Union section. I have been told several times that a British passport holder has no choice and has to go underneath the blue flag with the yellow stars. I just think it is a huge shame that our country has come to that.

The Minister gave the game away early on when he had difficulty responding to my perfectly reasonable request that Her Majesty’s Government undertake a comprehensive audit of the costs and benefits of our membership of this European club. I would have thought that everyone would be in favour of such an audit. After all, if the argument for being in the European Union is so strong, why not get the evidence together and put it to the British people? Those who feel strongly that the time has come to leave the Union would also like to see the facts and figures presented. I perfectly understand that it is going to be apples and pears, and that some things are not perfectly calculable, but Her Majesty’s Government should at least make some kind of effort to tell the British people why it is so important for us to remain in the EU. As far as my constituents and I can see, the membership subscription is now too high, we have no effective control over our borders with the EU, and business and other institutions in our country are being strangled more and more, month by month, by the red tape emanating from Brussels. It is time that it stopped.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hollobone]

Of course the Chinese are interested in trading with the EU bloc, because it is a big economic entity. Were we outside the EU, however, China would also be interested in trading with us. As for the idea that if we left the EU we would lose 3 million jobs, that has never been proved by the Labour party, and it is misleading to tell the British people that so many jobs are tied to our membership of the European Union.

[Andrew Percy]

I cannot get away from my old job as a teacher. I want to help to disabuse the hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds) of a couple of assumptions. Does my hon. Friend agree that businesses are not buying British goods just because we are in the European Union? The French are not buying goods from this country out of the goodness of their hearts; they are doing it because they make hard-headed business decisions, and they will continue to buy things from this country whether we are in the European Union or outside it. It is extremely likely that if we were outside it, we would continue to have a free trade agreement with them.

[Mr Hollobone]

The point is that if we left the European Union, we would continue to trade with the European Union. The idea that, if we tore up our membership slip, suddenly no one would talk to us or trade with us any more is nonsense.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Main]

From the hon. Lady’s rather tetchy remarks, I gather that most of her right hon. and hon. colleagues are off somewhere else debating more pressing matters, but this is being debated now and unlike her I think it is crucial that we debate it clearly. If we are game enough tonight to let people have a little sniff of the freedom of choosing, it could be the first time that many of them have a chance to hear the arguments for and against staying in the European Union.

[Andrew Percy]

On the comments of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds) about Labour Members wanting to discuss more important issues, perhaps she would like to comment on why the Opposition have chosen the subject of forests, rather than the NHS, for tomorrow’s Opposition day debate.

[Mrs Main]

That was not quite on the subject of the debate, but I take my hon. Friend’s point.

Opposition Members could have had a referendum on the Lisbon treaty and I believe that my party and other hon. Members here felt that the people should have had a say, but they did not. The hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) advocated quite strongly having a debate on the in or out issue; I do not feel that the treaty’s ratification negates that aspiration. I am sure that he would make a very robust defence for having an “in” vote, whereas other Members on the Government side who have concerns about it would make a robust argument for an “out” vote. That said, I am fed up with hearing constantly the mantra that now is not the time. It is never the time; it has not been the time for the past 19 years. When will be the time? The Bill offers us the opportunity to have a little hook on which to hang the possibility—that is all—that at some time in the future, if the people were unhappy about the relationship with Europe, they could say so.

I do not know how the people of St Albans or Cheltenham would vote or how the country would vote on this issue. I could be surprised and find that they wholly endorse our position within Europe, in which case any future Government could go forward with a robust mandate for referendum locks on transfers of power within treaties, because that would not necessarily mean that people want to give away more powers. People might say that they are happy with exactly the level of power that has been given away but that they do not want to give away any more. They might say yes to staying in but no to further transfers of power. That is why I disagree with my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset: I think that one can be in that position. Indeed, that is the position we are in now, because we are not taking a vote on this—we are staying put but saying that no more powers should be transferred.

I would like the good people of this country to have a say, because they do air their concerns when one talks to them in supermarkets, pubs and cafés. They air their concerns when they hear about some of the nonsense legislation we have to put up with and when they hear that we cannot do anything about some issue because it is a result of EU legislation. I think they would like a say, but that does not mean that they cannot be persuaded. I say to hon. Members, “Give us the chance to put the argument to the people and let them decide. Don’t be frightened of giving them the chance to make a decision because you think they’ll make the wrong decision. It’s their country and we’re here to represent their views.” I do not believe in not asking them their views. If we can have a referendum on the alternative vote, which was never raised on the doorstep prior to its being raised in the House and which was not being advocated by a single party in the House, we should be able to have a referendum on something that was raised on the doorstep and on which some parties stood as a sole issue—Europe. I do not agree with the hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds) that the Opposition Benches are empty because Opposition Members are not interested; I believe they are empty because they have been told to go off and play away at something different. It is the complacency demonstrated by those empty Benches that has led us to where we are.

In conclusion, I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough for his ingenuity in getting the new clause debated on the Floor of the House tonight. I am sorry that the Whips and other hon. Members feel they have been kept here tonight because the usual suspects are making a noise and a row about Europe. But if we did not, I believe our constituents would say to us, “Don’t ever say to me that you’re unhappy about Europe, because when there was a chance for you to give us a say—at some point in the future not yet decided—you shut down that avenue, because you could.” Tonight, I do not believe that avenue should be shut down. I believe it is the fear of knowing the answer that is shutting it down, not any logical reason.