Welsh Affairs

Alun Cairns Excerpts

Monday 19th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered Welsh Affairs.

I commend the Backbench Business Committee for recognising the importance of holding this debate on Wales. I thank my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House for agreeing to reschedule the debate from St David’s day, in the light of the weather, and to hold it now in Government time. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen), who originally secured the debate by persisting with the Backbench Business Committee and gaining a positive outcome. I am sure that the debate will be wide-ranging, constructive, and even provocative at times. Whatever issues are considered, I am confident that we will all have the best interests of Wales at heart.

I think the whole House will want to pay tribute to Lord Crickhowell, the former Welsh Secretary—the longest-serving Welsh Secretary—who sadly died today. A statement was made in the other place. I have many fond memories of him, as I know many other hon. Members will, and we know the challenges he faced and the stability he brought to Wales with his vision. Cardiff Bay is an obvious example, as is the establishment of S4C, and there were so many other changes thanks to the influence he brought to bear across government.

It is also important to pay tribute and respect to Lord Richard, who also died today. He contributed significant work to the devolution debate through the Richard commission, which played a significant part in establishing a foundation for the further advancement of devolution in Wales. Our thoughts and respect go to the families of both Lord Crickhowell and Lord Richard.

If this debate had been held on the originally planned day, it would have been associated with a whole host of initiatives and gatherings here in London to recognise issues facing Wales, and highlighting the best that Wales has to offer, as part of Wales Week in London. More than 80 events were held in areas from culture and sport to business and the economy. There were events at No. 10 Downing Street, at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, here in Parliament and at Lancaster House, where the Welsh Government scheduled their events. Unfortunately, Ken Skates, the Welsh Government Minister, could not be there, but I was happy to step in and to support his actions and his wishes. There were also events across London at various headquarters of UK and international businesses that have strong interests in Wales or are seeking to invest in Wales. Wales Week in London was a fantastic success. Being Welsh, it lasted much longer than a week, and probably longer than a fortnight.

In recognising those events, I pay tribute to Dan Langford and Mike Jordan, who initiated the concept of Wales Week in London. All the events have become part of a successful time in the Welsh calendar on and around St David’s day. The week has been jointly supported by the UK and Welsh Governments, appreciating that as we leave the European Union, the more outward-looking and ambitious we are, the stronger our position as we grasp the new opportunities ahead.

[David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

Indeed, 1 March would have been a very special day for the debate. Would it not also have been a special day to announce the finalised growth deal for north Wales, given that one was announced for other parts of Wales on that day, and given that there has been a tremendous amount of work on it? We have now had the spring statement. Will the Secretary of State give some indication of when he will announce the funding and outcomes for the growth deal in north Wales?

[Alun Cairns]

I am encouraged by the sense of urgency from the right hon. Gentleman, and from other Members from north Wales. He will well know, however, that this is a matter for local partners, because we can respond as quickly as possible as they develop and bring forward their initiatives and ideas. We are making very good progress. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary was in north Wales last week, working with local partners—local authorities and businesses—to progress the case as quickly as possible.

[David Hanson]

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way again. He will know how important the deal is. It is certainly locally driven, but the framework for it is the spending limits set by the UK Government and the Treasury and the indications that he gives. If he gave an indication via the Treasury of what the spending limit was, the deal could be signed very quickly.

[Alun Cairns]

The right hon. Gentleman tempts me, but he knows that that is not the way it works. We assess and break down the merits of each individual part of it. We then break down which areas are devolved and which are reserved, and we come up with a package that is jointly supported by the Welsh Government, the UK Government and partners in the community, including those in the private sector and local authorities. I am as anxious as he is to see the deal progress as quickly as possible, on the basis of the success we are seeing elsewhere.

[Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab)]

On St David’s day in Torfaen, we had a visit from the American ambassador. He visited Pontypool indoor market and Frog Bikes, a new business which, with support from the Welsh Government and Torfaen County Borough Council, is now partnered with USA Cycling. Will the Secretary of State join me in congratulating Frog Bikes on that achievement?

[Alun Cairns]

I will happily congratulate it. I met the US ambassador to the UK a few days before his visit to Wales. He shared his plans and hopes, and I said that the visits he hoped to make were thoroughly excellent. He is a true friend of Wales, and I am keen to develop a much stronger relationship with him as we attract investment and other opportunities and meet challenges such as the one between the UK and US steel industry, which we spoke about last week.

[Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State has outlined how important it is for Wales to look outward. The Government committed in 2012 to the western rail link to Heathrow, which would directly connect Wales to Heathrow, going through the west country and, indeed, Slough. Does he agree that it is about time the Government built it?

--- Later in debate ---

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for highlighting that project, because it is important to Wales. I thoroughly support it, and we want to gain investment from a range of sources for it. His point highlights how integrated the rail network is—Wales sometimes benefits from spend in England, and England sometimes benefits from spend in Wales.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Alun Cairns]

I want to make some progress, then I will give way.

I was discussing the opportunities for Wales as we leave the European Union. I hope Members throughout the House will welcome the news earlier today that an agreement in principle has been reached with the European Union on the implementation period. As the Prime Minister has said, that shows that with good will on both sides, it is possible to agree an arrangement that works for all sides.

As we leave the European Union, the Union of the UK is more important than ever before. We are a Union of four nations developed over a long history, communicated through a common culture and a shared identity. As a result of joint working and the collaborative approach taken by the UK Government and the Welsh Government, we have delivered a fiscal framework that secures Welsh funding over the long term and a Wales Act that puts Welsh devolution on a stable footing.

Despite what is often reported in the press, the relationship between the Governments is positive, and I take pride in that, along with the First Minister. While there will undoubtedly be challenges ahead, Wales is well placed to benefit from the many opportunities that leaving the European Union offers, such as the chance to form new partnerships, maintain relationships with old allies and become true beneficiaries of the UK being a global leader in free trade.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State must be concerned by a leaked document from the Government five weeks ago indicating that there would be a 9.5% reduction in Wales’s economic growth rate if the Government failed to achieve a deal with our European partners. If the Government are considering the possibility of no deal, he must be extremely concerned about that projection.

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman tempts me, but he knows that the Government do not comment on leaked documents. Statements have been made that those documents were not complete, nor were they approved by Ministers.

I am happy to talk about the strength of the Welsh economy and the opportunities we have to exploit the UK being a global leader in free trade. Wales was the fastest-growing nation in the UK in 2016. We have 98,000 more people in work since 2010, with 44,000 more women in work and unemployment down by 48,000 compared with 2010. That demonstrates the strength of the Welsh economy, in which I have significant confidence.

[Geraint Davies]

Does the Secretary of State accept that 60% of Welsh exports are to the EU, and there is a real risk that we will face tariffs, regulatory barriers and supply chain constraints, which would undermine that growth? Would it not be better for him to commit now to pressing to be part of the single market and the customs union, if in fact we Brexit?

[Alun Cairns]

As the hon. Gentleman says, about 60% of Welsh exports go to the EU. I am surprised by the simplistic approach that someone of his stature and understanding takes. He of all Members would recognise the complexity of supply chains. The real figure is that 80% of Welsh output goes to the rest of the UK, and there are then onward exports to the European Union and elsewhere. That demonstrates the complexity of supply chains, and he undersells himself by taking that simplistic approach.

Export figures are strong, as the hon. Gentleman is happy to highlight. Last year, we exceeded the £16 billion figure. Export growth to the EU rose by 12%, and the increase in exports to areas outside the EU was 13%. Inward investment remains strong, with investments from companies such as Ipsen Biopharm. It has invested £22 million in Wrexham to expand its facilities, creating 100 jobs. Over recent years, the amount invested locally has been close to £100 million. Spanish manufacturing giant CAF is investing £30 million in Newport producing railway rolling stock, creating 200 new jobs.

Toyota’s recent announcement that it will build its new Auris model in Burnaston is great news for the engine plant on Deeside. That demonstrates the complexity of supply chains, which I mentioned to the hon. Gentleman, and highlights the fact that Wales gains much from being part of the common UK market.

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

Clearly the Toyota announcement was extremely good news, but it was planned over a number of years. Does the Secretary of State agree that the company, along with others such as Airbus, has major concerns about the post-Brexit situation, particularly if we have tariffs?

[Alun Cairns]

I am quite surprised that the hon. Gentleman suggests that major investments such as that take place with such simplicity. They might have well have been thought of a number of years ago, but it takes a lot of hard negotiation to strike the final deal and gain a commitment to investment. We all recognise that global companies such as Toyota could take their investment almost anywhere, but it chose to bring it to the United Kingdom. I was in Japan just last August talking to Toyota about that investment, because of the ongoing influence it will have on any investment on Deeside. We have not yet won that for Deeside, but we are in a much stronger position because of Toyota’s commitment in Derbyshire.

I have also had the privilege of visiting Qatar and the US in recent months, to meet investors and seek to establish new relationships that will benefit Wales and the rest of the United Kingdom. The Welsh and UK Governments are developing a strong trading relationship with Qatar, and in six weeks the very first Doha to Cardiff flight will operate, making it far easier for investors from the region to trade in and with Wales.

[Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab)]

Does the Secretary of State now accept that the Welsh Government were right to put in the investment to purchase Cardiff airport several years ago? Without that investment within his own constituency, Cardiff airport could have folded, because he simply was not interested.

[Alun Cairns]

I do not accept that statement. The ownership of the airport does not matter; it is the operation and management of the airport that is important. The hon. Gentleman will recognise that it is an independent, limited company, and it is important that the airport has the freedom to operate in the way it does. I am privileged to have the airport in my constituency, and I support it. In recent months, I have spoken to every managing director or chief executive involved to encourage and facilitate more flights to and from the airport, which is playing a part in contributing to its success. It has grown by 8%, but other airports across the country have grown by similar amounts because of the success of the UK economy.

Welsh businesses will be at the forefront of the UK’s biggest ever trade festival, which kicks off in Hong Kong later this week. I am determined to ensure a close working relationship between the Welsh Government, my office and the Department for International Trade on foreign direct investment and our export ambitions. This is what businesses and communities want. Last week, the Department for International Trade and I held workshops in my office in Cardiff bay to better understand the barriers to exporting and the opportunities in which each Government can play a part in supporting those ambitious companies. I will host a similar event in north Wales next week.

Certainty and continuity for businesses and communities are themes that we are extending to our approach to leaving the European Union. As Members will be aware, we have been working closely with the Welsh Government on the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill. Our initial approach was to retain all EU powers at UK level on a temporary basis to provide the certainty and security that the business community has called for, and we have committed to working with the devolved Administrations on how these powers will work and their onward transfer to the Welsh, Scottish and Northern Ireland Assemblies and Parliaments. However, having listened carefully to the concerns raised by the devolved Administrations, we have tabled an amendment to clause 11. The assumption is that the powers should be devolved, but with an order-making power to enable the UK Government, working with all the devolved Administrations, to legislate and to protect the UK common market. This will apply only in a limited number of areas and on a temporary basis. We have published analysis showing that we expect there to be only 24 areas of policy where we will need to discuss the possibility of legislative frameworks with the Welsh Government.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Wayne David]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Alun Cairns]

I will give way in a moment, but I want to finish this important point.

This means that we expect to be able to devolve 40 areas with either no frameworks or only informal agreements. The result is that the vast majority of powers returning from Brussels that intersect with devolved competence will fall under the full control of the devolved Administrations from day one of exit.

[Susan Elan Jones]

Is not the right hon. Gentleman really saying that he has not listened to the Welsh Government?

[Alun Cairns]

I would hope that the hon. Lady recognised that we have listened to the Welsh Government and the other devolved Administrations by bringing forward the amendment in the other place. We are still working with the Welsh Government to get to a position of agreement where we can gain a legislative consent motion. That we have a robust relationship is demonstrated by the fact that the First Minister and the Finance Minister, Mark Drakeford, have said that we are very close to a deal, although we are not there yet and further challenges remain.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

I understand that one of the 24 areas relates to procurement, but there appears to be no formal way of negotiating on and agreeing how these powers will actually be transferred.

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Lady raises an important point. As we talk about the 24 areas, we will of course want to apply the Sewel convention. That is the basis on which devolution has worked since the change to the UK constitution back in 1999. We will always want to get there by agreement, but that is the basis on which the Sewel convention works. Whatever legislation there is in the 24 areas of law that we want to use to protect the UK market, we will always seek agreement with the devolved Administrations under that convention. That demonstrates the level of co-operation between the UK Government and the devolved Administrations, and I have already mentioned my positive relationship with the Welsh Government.

[Christina Rees (Neath) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Secretary of State says that this is a temporary measure. Why is he altering the Government of Wales Act 2006, because that surely makes it permanent?

[Alun Cairns]

I am not quite sure which specific element the hon. Lady is referring to, but I will happily meet her to discuss the details. We are having an ongoing positive discussion with the Welsh Government, as well as with the Scottish Government, and we are keen to get to a position where we will gain a legislative consent motion.

[Christina Rees]

I am talking about the UK Government’s amendment to clause 11, which specifically says that there will be an obligation on UK Ministers to consult Welsh Government Ministers, not to seek their consent.

[Alun Cairns]

Clearly, we will consult, but we will also use and honour the Sewel convention, which is the basis on which legislation has been developed and drafted ever since 1999—with the agreement of the devolved Administration.

[Wayne David]

rose—

[Alun Cairns]

I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, but I then want to make some progress.

[Wayne David]

The Secretary of State is very kind. This is an important point, and it is important to have clarification. He has mentioned the retention of powers “on a temporary basis”. How long is temporary?

[Alun Cairns]

The reason for using the word “temporary” is that we want to bring in order-making powers for 24 areas of law to use them to protect the UK market until we have reached a position of agreement with the devolved Administrations on how we will enact legislation to put in place frameworks on those areas of law. In each and every one of the areas, we will, as we progress through the 24 areas, use the Sewel convention. This demonstrates the pragmatic, positive process we are pursuing. I could easily give some simple, practical examples of why this is important, but Wales has certainly more to gain than it has to lose. I have highlighted the fact that 80% of Welsh output goes to the rest of the UK, and that undermines—sorry, underlines; let me clarify that this underlines—the importance of doing the right thing on these 24 areas of law, because one part of the United Kingdom should not be given the power to hold up every other part.

Much attention is understandably given to the EU market, but the UK market is central to the success of the Welsh economy, and we must recognise the importance of the UK market to investment and jobs. As I have mentioned, 80% of Welsh output goes to the rest of the United Kingdom, so protecting the internal UK market will protect jobs and investment in Wales and across the UK. Where these limited common frameworks are needed or indeed essential, we will continue to apply the principles of the Sewel convention, seeking the support of the devolved Administration at every stage. This is an entirely reasonable proposition, and follows the foundations on which devolution has been established since 1999. I hope that the Welsh Government and Labour Members will recognise that we have moved a considerable way on this, and will see the importance of providing as much certainty and continuity as possible for businesses in Wales. We will continue to work closely with the Welsh Government to secure their agreement to promote a positive recommendation on a legislative consent motion in the Assembly.

Advice on the 24 areas, as well as on the others that we do not want to be subject to an order-making power, has come from industry itself. An expert panel was established, and businesses have raised genuine concerns about their UK prospects being undermined. Industry has advised us all the way along, and that is how we have ended up with these 24 areas. Any action to scupper that will be undermining—genuinely undermining —industry and business, as well as investment prospects, in Wales.

Agriculture is a key area of the Welsh economy and central to our way of life across Wales. Last summer, I hosted the Environment Secretary at the Royal Welsh show where, in one his first official engagements, he met the Farmers Unions of Wales, the National Farmers Union Cymru, the Country Land and Business Association and other key stakeholders, as well as my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Chris Davies), who was working at the show that day. Our engagement with them has continued since then, with all of them having regular access to UK Government Ministers and officials. Most recently, the farming Minister—the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, my hon. Friend the Member for Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice)—met a group of representatives at the Royal Welsh agricultural showground to discuss our exit from the EU, but also to talk about longer-term plans for the UK’s environment and agriculture sectors.

At many of those meetings, if not all, geographical indicators have been raised, because we all recognise the importance of labelling, marketing and branding our produce. A moment ago, I talked about clause 11 and frameworks. This is a good example of why a UK approach is needed to protect the interests of producers and consumers. We obviously need common regulations on food labelling across the UK because we rightly want to protect the status of Welsh lamb, Welsh beef, Halen Môn and many other brands, so that they are recognised and protected across the UK and beyond. That does not mean, as has been suggested, a one-size-fits-all approach to branding. We are committed to protecting all 84 of the registered geographical indicators now and after EU exit.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State makes an important point about what the UK wants. Has he had discussions with European Ministers or Commissioners about what they will allow in respect of such branding in the future? Many brands, including Halen Môn in my constituency which he mentioned, are very concerned about this issue.

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman raises an important point. Like me, he highlighted Halen Môn, which has gained significantly from its geographical indicator brand. He will recognise that these issues are subject to negotiations. I expect our discussions with the European Union to take place on a positive footing, but of course we cannot pre-empt anything.

[Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the European Union has an equal interest in ensuring that its products receive similar protection? For example, the United Kingdom is one of the biggest markets in the world for champagne. I am sure that the new Conwy vineyards in Mochdre would be delighted to label their excellent products as champagne, but I think they would be entirely happy to see their products equally protected.

[Alun Cairns]

My right hon. Friend is very sharp on these matters and recognises their importance, as I am sure do many of the champagne drinkers on the other side of the Chamber. A vineyard in my constituency was caught out by the geographical indicators when it labelled its sparkling wine “llampagne”. Unfortunately, the European Commission threatened to take action and the company rebranded its product. My right hon. Friend underlines my point that we hope that these elements of the negotiation will take place on a positive basis as we leave the European Union and consider the new opportunities that that will provide.

On another topical issue, I want to reassure Members that work continues between my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, my office and the Welsh Government on the Swansea Bay tidal lagoon. As the Business Secretary said last week, the Swansea proposal is more than twice as expensive as Hinkley nuclear power station, so we will continue discussions with the Welsh Government to look at the affordability of the case and do everything possible to make it a reality. However, the challenges are quite obvious.

[Jo Stevens (Cardiff Central) (Lab)]

As much as we are all enjoying the tour around the Secretary of State’s Outlook diary and the various visits and meetings he has had, in that time he could have made a decision with his Cabinet colleagues about the Swansea tidal lagoon. It is over a year since the Hendry report; when will we hear a result and a decision?

[Alun Cairns]

As we have said, we will respond as quickly as we possibly can. However, the hon. Lady will recognise that this is quite a dynamic environment. The price of renewable energy has plummeted over that period and the numbers from the tidal lagoon company have also changed, so perhaps the delay will prove to bring better value for money for the taxpayer. As I have said, the current proposal is twice as expensive as Hinkley nuclear power station, and I am sure the hon. Lady wants to see good value for money for the taxpayer, whatever the outcome.

[David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that if Opposition Members were serious about getting the project off the ground, they would recommend to the First Minister of Wales that he accept the invitation to appear before the Welsh Affairs Committee and explain the apparent gift of £200 million that he briefed the Western Mail on, instead of hiding behind the excuse that he will not come for some reason?

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for highlighting the need for hard negotiations and discussions about what the facts are. Many claims have been made, but ultimately it comes down to whether the case provides value for money. As I have said many times, we must ensure that large-scale projects provide value for money for taxpayers and consumers. My hon. Friend will remember the very difficult decision the Welsh Government faced when they decided to cancel the Circuit of Wales in Blaenau Gwent. Despite wanting to do something, they knew ultimately that it was not good value for money, as the numbers proved.

[Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State tell us when he has accepted an invitation to an Assembly Committee? On the tidal lagoon, does he agree that this is not just about a one-off project that will create valuable renewable energy; it is about the knock-on effects throughout south Wales, the technology that will be created and all the other tidal lagoons that will be created as a result?

[Alun Cairns]

I appeared before the Assembly’s External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee just a few months ago. I have been in front of them on a number of occasions.

The hon. Lady will have had a close relationship with the Circuit of Wales and the challenging decision that that involved. The principles behind the Circuit of Wales decision apply equally to the value for money of any major infrastructure project. As we analyse the numbers, I am sure that she and other Members would not want to see investment that was not good value for money for the taxpayer.

[Ben Lake (Ceredigion) (PC)]

Before we move on from Swansea and the topic of cancelled projects, does the Secretary of State agree that there is a strong argument to reinvest any funding that was allocated to the electrification of the south Wales main line, which has been cancelled, in the Welsh network?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman raises an interesting point, but he well knows that, as the hon. Member for Slough (Mr Dhesi) indicated earlier, the rail network is far more integrated than that. I would highlight the investment in the Halton curve. Although it is in England, it will benefit north Wales passengers by linking Wrexham to Liverpool directly. We therefore cannot be prescriptive about what will bring benefits. There are exciting opportunities to improve access to west Wales. For example, there are calls from significant quarters for a Swansea parkway station. That holds the prospect of transforming access for west Wales passengers and is something that I am quite excited about.

I would love to talk about the Severn tolls and the growth deals in much more detail, but unfortunately time has got the better of us. I want to use this opportunity to celebrate the great success that Wales has to offer in the UK and beyond. From abolishing the Severn tolls to supporting exporters and investors, we continue to show our commitment to Wales. Growth in Wales is strong, and Cardiff saw the highest increase in growth of all UK capital cities in 2016. It is clear that investors see Wales as a great place to invest. There is clearly a lot to celebrate and I look forward to the stimulating debate ahead of us.