Queen’s Speech: Implications for Wales

Albert Owen Excerpts

Wednesday 19th July 2017 Westminster Hall

[Jo Stevens]

The hon. Gentleman raises an interesting point. I know that there has been commentary from the Welsh First Minister about whether it needs to be reviewed. Perhaps the Minister will deal with that in his response.

The paucity of the Government’s programme for this two-year parliamentary Session was laid bare in the Queen’s Speech. Much of the Conservative party manifesto was abandoned: dementia tax; means testing the winter fuel allowance; grammar schools in England—of course, we do not have them in Wales—a vote on repealing the fox hunting ban, although I suspect that Plaid Cymru Members would have been glad at that policy; fixed-term Parliaments; the energy price cap; and the removal of free school lunches. The U-turns and concessions have continued apace since then.

What exactly was on offer for Wales in that Speech and since from the Government? After the dog’s dinner of the Wales Act 2017 in the last Parliament, there has been no progress on tidying up and providing much-needed clarity on the devolution settlement, nothing to offer on rail electrification or anything concrete on scrapping the Severn bridge tolls and no Swansea bay tidal lagoon announcement, despite the Government sitting on the favourable Hendry report since January.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend mentioned rail electrification in north Wales. Although I welcome the announcement of an HS2 hub in Crewe, does she agree that that was an ideal opportunity to announce at least a plan for the future of connectivity from Crewe to north Wales? Electrification could be a part of that.

[Jo Stevens]

My hon. Friend raises an important point, which I think demonstrates the Government’s lack of vision for Wales; they are always concentrating on what they can do for England, rather than Wales.

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[Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)]

Thank you, Mr Howarth; I will speak fast. I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff Central (Jo Stevens) for an amazing speech and for arranging for the debate to take place. The focus on the rights of women in relation to Brexit was spot on and something that no one else has raised so far. I am so pleased that she has done so.

One highlight of the Queen’s Speech was the customs Bill. I want to focus on that and the impact in Bridgend and in particular on Ford’s automotive engine plant. Like many other automotive companies in the UK, Ford relies heavily on tariff and customs-free trade. Automotive experts, including the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, have made it crystal clear that customs barriers and tariffs will cripple the industry. It is no secret that the single market and customs union have been critical to the sector’s competitiveness. That is critical; we cannot allow that to change. The most recent figures show how significant the industry is to the UK economy. Its turnover was £71 billion and it supports 800,000 jobs. The EU is the largest market for the UK’s automotive sector, with 56% of exported cars going into it.

The Government should heed calls from the sector and ensure that the benefits of the single market and tariff and customs-free trade with the EU is retained. That is essential. Keeping free trade and the supply chain unaffected is imperative, otherwise costs will increase. It is estimated that the effect on the automotive industry of losing free access to the customs union will be catastrophic. This is a highly integrated global industry, with vehicles and parts crossing borders multiple times in the assembly process. It relies on the just-in-time manufacturing process, so we need to maintain a seamless customs arrangement. Without that just-in-time process, we will have companies’ cash tied up in making sure that parts are available and stockpiled rather than arriving just in time. That will have a devastating impact on the viability of the automotive trade in the UK.

Leaving the EU without a deal would mean reverting to World Trade Organisation tariffs and customs checks at UK borders, which would increase delays, significantly increase costs and impact competiveness. The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders found that a 10% tariff on finished vehicles because of World Trade Organisation rules would cost the industry a staggering £4.5 billion, which would inevitably increase costs for consumers—the average cost of a car in the UK is expected to rise by £1,500 as a result. Research from the PA Consulting Group has found that the cost of moving to a World Trade Organisation regime would impose a 4.5% tariff on vehicle components alone, including the parts needed for the engines being built in Bridgend. That would impact the competiveness of companies such as Ford in Bridgend, and then there is the knock-on effect of 14,000 jobs associated with that factory in Bridgend—14,000 jobs that I am determined to protect.

I cannot stress enough how important tariff and customs free trade is. Investment in the UK car industry has already sharply declined in the first half of this year to just £322 million, compared with the total of £1.66 billion that was invested in the UK’s automotive sector last year. Companies are delaying spending because it is difficult to plan amid uncertainty over our future trading arrangements and concerns relating to the World Trade Organisation tariffs. The Government should carry out an impact assessment on how changes to customs procedures will affect the automotive industry, and absolutely avoid the possibility of resorting to World Trade Organisation rules.

The industry needs concrete reassurances and further details on how the customs Bill will ensure frictionless trade. Nothing is being told to the companies, everyone is living with uncertainty and employees are deeply concerned about their future, their ability to invest in mortgages and the uncertainty of their job prospects. Are they actually going to be in work in two years’ time? Nobody knows. Without doubt, the imposition of tariffs by losing access to the single market and customs union puts our businesses across Wales, such as Ford, at a significant disadvantage.

[Albert Owen]

My hon. Friend is making a very important point about the Government’s industrial strategy. It talks about the whole of the UK, but in the automotive sector they have done a sweetheart deal with Nissan, putting greater uncertainties on the other car plants in the United Kingdom. If we are going to have an industrial strategy for all, there must be a level playing field.

[Mrs Moon]

This Government do not like level playing fields. They do bungs to the DUP, and goodness knows what bung has gone into the north-east—I don’t know, nobody knows. We have to have transparency, and we do not have transparency.

A completed car being exported into the EU would face a tariff of 10%, with 4.8% on assembled engines and 2% on components. Currently, banking passporting of capital across the EU is allowed. Is the Wales Office monitoring the number of Welsh businesses applying for banking licences in the EU? SMEs will need time to cope with dealing with the customs transition. Are SMEs going to have support, training and opportunities to ensure awareness of the impact of exiting the customs union on their businesses? There is a great deal of concern that that is not there. Finally, will the Minister comment on REACH rules, on the registration, evaluation, authorisation and restriction of chemicals, which are used widely in the automotive industry, and say what he is doing to look at the impact on the automotive industry in Wales?

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Cardiff Central (Jo Stevens) on securing this debate and on her very fine speech.

This is a pivotal period in our history. It is a point that will determine the future of our economy, our governance and our relations with the rest of the world—that is, the world beyond just England—but I regret to say that the Prime Minister’s legislative programme is a deficient plan for defining times. The UK Government have no majority of their own, a compromised mandate and, as far as I can see, no real plan for Wales. They do have a split Cabinet, a lame duck premier and a legislative programme dominated by what one senior EU diplomat described to me recently as a vanity project for a few politicians who have now largely jumped ship—all that based on an unassailable sense of entitlement and an optimism that all will be well and the world will beat a path to our door.

My contribution today will be focused on two of the most wretched elements of the Queen’s Speech: the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill and the Government’s wilful neglect of Wales’s infrastructure. It is now quite clear that Westminster intends to claw back powers from the people of Wales. The UK Government intend to encroach on our basic power to govern ourselves, trashing the settlement that, since 1999, has allegedly been based on an agenda of respect. Plaid Cymru MPs will do all that we can to oppose the Bill. We have always said that we will never vote for legislation that takes power away from the people of Wales. Now that the Brexit Secretary has conceded that his withdrawal Bill will need the consent of the devolved Governments, the way that he achieves his purpose will be revelatory, if not miraculous. I look forward to how he will explain himself, but there we are—we live in very strange times.

One way to avoid the provisions of the withdrawal Bill that would most damage Wales would be to make it largely unnecessary by maintaining our economic links with our soon-to-be-former partners. Staying in the single market and the customs union would render much of the Bill nugatory. Yet, as I said, there is no majority, no mandate, no plan, a split Cabinet, a lame duck premier and a legislative programme dominated by a vanity project. As the Prime Minister might say, “Remind you of anyone?” Well, actually, it does; but it is more John Major than Margaret Thatcher.

Turning to infrastructure commitments, where is the concrete commitment—literally concrete—to deliver for Wales? There is a further commitment to HS2, and Welsh taxpayers will be contributing to building the most expensive railway in the world without an inch of it being in Wales. Whatever benefits might come to north and north-east Wales, and perhaps even my constituency, objective commentators have said that it will actually damage the economy of much of the south of our country. I do not think that has been given the attention that it should have been.

The most glaring omission is the electrification of the south Wales main line. I understand that we are to have a further Government U-turn—possibly today, or perhaps it has already been announced—just before we leave for our constituencies. The Prime Minister said the other night that she hoped we would leave Westminster to settle down. Well, we are here not to settle down but to settle up. The Labour Government promised us full electrification in 2009—I took their word for it then, and I am sure their intentions were sincere—and full electrification was promised again in 2010. It is enough of a scandal that eight years later we are still waiting for it, but for the British Government to scuttle electrification of the line to Swansea while expecting the people of Wales to stump up for England’s HS2 is breathtakingly arrogant and totally indefensible. I should be glad to hear the Minister’s attempt to defend it.

The UK Government are backtracking on the electrification of the south Wales main line. As for the equivalent electrification of the north Wales main line, I suppose we can join the long line of honest people queuing up to whistle for their money from this dodgy Government.

[Albert Owen]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way on that point?

[Hywel Williams]

I think not, because time is rather short.

The Queen’s Speech claws away at our ability to strengthen our country, and it indulges the country’s constitutional obsessives and imperial Walter Mittys at the same time. Plaid Cymru will oppose this destructive and offensive stupidity.

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[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

Thank you, Mr Howarth, for calling me to speak. I will certainly do my best to allow my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore) to make a contribution on equal parity.

The Queen’s Speech was an opportunity lost. It was a two-year programme that did not have a Welsh dimension, which is an absolute disgrace, particularly when we heard warm words from the Prime Minister, and indeed in the Queen’s Speech, that there would be a programme for the whole of the United Kingdom.

I will concentrate on three main points; other Members have touched on them, but I want to elaborate on them and get some answers from the Minister. The first is the north Wales growth deal. We have seen Cardiff and Swansea city deals, which I welcome. In no way do I want to take away from them, but north Wales needs a focus of attention. This growth deal has been announced in numerous autumn statements. It is supposed to be bottom-up from the councils in north Wales, but the reality is that they have been squeezed; they do not have the finances or other resources that are needed. If we are to have an industrial strategy for the whole United Kingdom, we need the United Kingdom Government to take the lead and not pass the buck.

Many of us here in Westminster Hall today received increased mandates from the people of Wales, including the people of north Wales. We want to have a voice when it comes to growth deals, and we want to be able to say that we can help deliver the best for our constituents, so I ask the Minister: what is happening with the north Wales growth deal and why are we as MPs being excluded from its consideration?

I know that the Minister has sympathy with me on the second issue I will raise, which is Welsh ports. That is because Welsh ports will be impacted by Brexit more than any other ports in Europe, because they are the corridor to the Republic of Ireland. If we are to have a “seamless” or “frictionless” border, we want to know what that means; businesses need to know exactly what that means. If we have tariffs in Welsh ports, including Holyhead, then we will have delays and additional costs, which will impact on jobs in north Wales, in Wales as a whole and in the whole United Kingdom. We need clarity on that. I understand the issues with the border in Northern Ireland—I understand the Good Friday agreement and the fragility of that policy. However, the issue of Welsh ports is very important, and thus far it has not been given the attention it deserves.

Finally—I want to allow my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore to make as long a contribution as possible—I will refer to the Hendry review and the Swansea bay tidal lagoon. The policy has just been kicked into the long grass, with excuse after excuse. I support the policy, and when I was on the Energy and Climate Change Committee we conducted an inquiry into it. We concluded, across parties, that it was a good thing for British energy and British industry. The Hendry review was an independent inquiry, based on a model that this Government had put in—contract for difference strike prices. It is their model, it is their review and it is time they delivered.

I will finish with one last point. The DUP has had £1 billion—in many ways, good on it—but that has taken money and attention away from Wales, which is a disgrace. It is the job of the Wales Office to stand up and be the voice of Wales in Westminster, but it is failing us.

[Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab)]

Thank you for calling me to speak, Mr Howarth; I am grateful for the brief time I have.

I want to make three points. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff Central (Jo Stevens) on securing the debate. I agree entirely with her, and indeed with the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams), about the power grab that the repeal Bill is now conducting against the Welsh Government. I believe that we could be bordering on a real constitutional issue in how devolution moves forward if—at the moment it appears that this will be the case—not all the relevant powers that currently reside with the EU are devolved to the Welsh Government by the UK Government.

There were two things missing from the Queen’s Speech that I feel quite passionate about, because they have an impact on Wales and should have been referred to. The first relates to rail electrification. We have had the Transport Secretary on the train to Paddington and we have had the Welsh Secretary driving the train from Paddington to Cardiff, and then saying that we will have additional funding for electrification to Swansea. That would have a significant impact on my constituency and many others across the south Wales belt, and it would have further implications for the electrification of the valleys lines, including the lines through Pencoed up to Maesteg and possibly even to the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon)—that would create a transport hub in Bridgend.

That electrification is vital, and the UK Government—the Conservative Government—are failing the people of Wales by not securing it. That is simply unacceptable, especially given the hundreds of promises that Ministers have made time and again to provide electrification. Maybe the Transport Secretary and the Secretary of State for Wales just like driving trains—that might explain why they are so keen to make false promises.

The key area I wish to focus on is the impact of pension changes on women born in the 1950s, which was not considered in the Gracious Speech. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff Central for plugging the work of our hon. Friend the Member for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris) and myself on this issue. The issue is specific to Wales—

[Albert Owen]

And to the rest of the UK.

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[Albert Owen]

On the Minister’s point about debating the Queen’s Speech in Westminster Hall, is it his intention to have a fuller debate in the Welsh Grand Committee, which was set up for Welsh issues only? It would also provide an opportunity for Conservative Welsh Members to attend and to speak up for Wales.

[Mr George Howarth (in the Chair)]

Order. Welsh politics has always held a great fascination for me, although I do not think this debate is the occasion to run either the last general election, or, as the Minister seems to be doing, the one before that. If we can stick to the issue at hand, I am sure the people of Wales will be very grateful to us.

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[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Lady is a member of the Labour party, so I understand her suspicion of the intentions of a Conservative-led Government, but the aim of the Henry VIII powers are to correct deficiencies within the law as it stands. There will be thousands of deficiencies where legislation refers to European regulations and European laws. There will be a need to correct them. The same need to correct deficiencies will be granted to the Governments in Cardiff, Edinburgh and, I hope, Belfast. The intention is to correct deficiencies. The last thing the hon. Lady would want to see on the day after we depart the European Union is for our legal system to be inoperable. That would be a dereliction of duty on behalf of this Government.

I hope that gives some degree of comfort to the hon. Lady. Ultimately, there is an obligation on the Opposition to scrutinise as we go through the process of putting that the legislation in place.

[Albert Owen]

Would the Minister give way on that very point?

[Guto Bebb]

Not for the time being; I have to make some progress.

Converting EU law into UK law is not enough to ensure a functioning statute book on exit day. As I have mentioned, retained EU law will contain a broad range of deficiencies that need to be corrected; the intention is that that those deficiencies can be corrected both at a devolved level and in Westminster.

In addition to the withdrawal Bill, there will be other EU exit Bills, which are absolutely essential for the way in which we can operate as we leave the European Union. The customs Bill will provide for a stand-alone UK customs regime on exit, and the trade Bill will put in place the essential and necessary framework to allow the UK to operate our own independent trade policy. I suspect Opposition Members, who respect the result of the referendum, would not argue against the need for a customs Bill or a trade Bill.

On the comments of the hon. Member for Ynys Môn about ports, the Wales Office is aware of the issues in relation to Holyhead port. I think I am right in saying that the Secretary of State has visited. I have recently had meetings with Irish Ferries, for example, to discuss the issue in detail. Although we all recognise the sensitive nature of the border in Northern Ireland, it is imperative that we ensure that the ports in Wales are also protected. The Wales Office is certainly very aware of that issue, and I am more than happy to deal with the hon. Gentleman on that in due course.

The trade Bill is also crucial because, as has been pointed out by many hon. Members, Wales is more dependent on exports than any other part of the United Kingdom. We saw a significant increase in our exports in the year to March 2017. When I hear the doom and gloom of Opposition Members about the Welsh economy, I would remind them that our exports are increasing, not decreasing, and we are exporting more to the European Union than we did in the year prior to the decision to leave the European Union. That is some source of comfort.

It is also imperative that we have an immigration Bill that deals with some of the issues raised about the concerns of EU citizens and the wider implications. On the point made by the hon. Member for Cardiff Central about her constituent and the lack of response from the Home Office, I would personally be more than happy to take that up on her behalf with the Home Office, if she would care to write to me about it. Such a delay in responding is simply not acceptable; I will happily look into it on her behalf.

We will also bring forward a fisheries Bill and an agriculture Bill, which will undoubtedly have an impact on Wales. Some 60,000 people are employed in the agriculture sector in Wales—we all know the importance of agriculture to our rural communities. We need to ensure that we have a functioning sector as we leave the European Union.

There are other pieces of legislation in the Queen’s Speech that are important to Wales. We will bring forward a number of proposals, for example modernising the courts system and dealing with domestic violence through the creation of a domestic violence and abuse commissioner. Those issues are not England-only; they apply in Wales.

I will try to respond to some of the points raised by hon. Members. I have touched on the fact that a number of pieces of legislation in the Queen’s Speech have a direct impact on Wales. Anybody who denied that would be wrong.

On the financial settlement for Wales, hon. Members have very short memories. Just before Christmas, we announced a fiscal framework for Wales that ensured a Barnett floor—something that has been called for by many interested parties in Wales for a very long time and was never delivered by the Labour party when they were in power in Westminster and in Cardiff Bay. It has been delivered by this Conservative Government. The fiscal floor currently ensures that for every £100 spent in England, £119 is spent in Wales. It guarantees that there will be a floor. In other words, because of that funding commitment, the Barnett squeeze will not happen again.

Over and above the Barnett consequentials, the Government have also delivered support for growth deals for Cardiff and Swansea. I assure the hon. Member for Ynys Môn that we are working very hard on achieving a growth deal for north Wales. The hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian C. Lucas) is in discussions with us on a regular basis on the growth deal for north Wales.

Oral Answers to Questions

Albert Owen Excerpts

Wednesday 8th March 2017 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for his work in respect of the importance of connectivity between north Wales and the north-west of England, as well as more widely. He is clearly aware of the potential of HS2 to open the door to better connectivity. I recognise his concern about the Crewe hub. We are discussing the issue at a ministerial level, but I would be delighted to meet him to discuss it further at any point.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

I look forward to welcoming the Secretary of State to my constituency tomorrow so that he can see the importance of connectivity between Wales, Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom. On the broadband universal service obligation, has the Minister made the case to other Departments for finance to roll out superfast broadband to the extra 5%?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman is well known for championing Anglesey. I thoroughly agree with him about the importance of connectivity, both digital and by road and rail. The Wales Office is continually making the case for a scheme to ensure that the whole UK is well served by digital connectivity as we exit the European Union.

Welsh Affairs

Albert Owen Excerpts

Thursday 2nd March 2017 Commons Chamber

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered Welsh affairs.

I thank the Backbench Business Committee for selecting this debate. I pay particular tribute to the hon. Member for Cardiff North (Craig Williams) for joining me and others in putting the case for securing it.

I am proud to be a Welsh MP, proud to serve in the House of Commons, proud to be Welsh, proud to be British and proud to be an internationalist. Wales has made an enormous contribution to Britain and the globe. I was hoping to make my opening remarks as the Welsh team were on the way, as Triple Crown winners, to winning the Six Nations championship. That is not so, but we are still a very united country and it is unity that is the theme of my speech today.

Yesterday, as Welsh people, we celebrated with patriotism. We had an excellent service in the House of Commons, where the Speaker’s Chaplain officiated in both English and Welsh. It is now on the record that we are allowed to use the Welsh language in future Welsh Grand Committees. I say to Mr Deputy Speaker that he should take a leaf out of the book of the Speaker’s Chaplain. He should attend a Welsh Grand Committee debate and, as a great visitor to my constituency and many other parts of Wales, speak in both Welsh and English.

Before I move on to some of the issues that have shaped the past 12 months, I want to say that there has been some good news. I remind the House of the excellent performance of the Welsh football team in Euro 2016, when we led the way for the United Kingdom. I remind Members, particularly those on the Labour Benches, that Labour was returned to government in the Welsh Assembly and that we again have a Labour First Minister of Wales.

Since St David’s day 2016, there have been some issues that have divided the country and the world. Brexit divided many of our constituencies—it divided Wales and the United Kingdom—and Bush was elected President of the United States. To talk of building walls—I said Bush, but I mean Trump. I have made that mistake before, but he is worse than Bush. The serious point is that Trump talks about building walls. To talk about building walls is to ask on which side of the wall people belong. We need to put an end to that kind of divisiveness. Of course we need political debate, critical thinking and broad opinion to shape our future, but we need to stop talking about Brexiteers and remainers. We need to talk about the 100% we are elected to represent. In Scotland, they still talk of the 45%, but if we are to move forward we have to move away from tribalism and towards unity.

As you know, Mr Deputy Speaker, Welsh MPs have played a pivotal role in the House of Commons. They have introduced policies and concepts that have united the United Kingdom. I am talking about Nye Bevan and the national health service—something we all support, because it has helped all our people—and Jim Griffiths, the former Member for Llanelli, who introduced the National Assistance Act 1948, again to give social protection to everybody in the UK. Those things have helped to shape the politics of the UK.

We must now build a consensus across parties on the big themes that can unite Wales and the UK. For one, we must provide social care for all our people, and we should have that debate here in the House as Welsh MPs. Over the last few years, I have been saddened to see divisions over the health and social care service being used politically by parties to divide us, when it should unite us and help the most vulnerable in society.

The digital revolution is something else that can unite us. We need to find 21st-century solutions, and one of those is superfast broadband. [Interruption.] Does my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) want to intervene? No? Superfast broadband liberates communities and families—I know of Welsh families with sons, daughters and other relatives around the world who now speak to them regularly because of the digital information technology facilities available—yet many people in rural and peripheral areas of Wales do not have the same facilities as those in larger towns and cities.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for spearheading the effort to secure this debate. Does he agree that it is not just a matter of householders’ rights and opportunities? We also need to get broadband right if we are serious about developing the economy in those peripheral areas.

[Albert Owen]

The hon. Gentleman is right. In fact, I was just coming to businesses. I welcome the Digital Economy Bill. I have been arguing for some time, like many other Members, that we need universal coverage in the UK, and it has been resisted for too long. Now it is in the Bill. United as Welsh MPs, we can take the lead and have the universal service obligation rolled out in Wales first. The Secretary of State, who I know is paying attention on the Front Bench, could be pivotal in taking this up in Cabinet. The Welsh Government, as a single body, are working with BT to roll this out in Wales, unlike in England, where there are several roll-out bodies. We can be ahead of the game, as we have been on many other big issues that have united us, so I hope he will listen and respond positively.

Like many Members, I have worked with BT Openreach and the Welsh Government, and I have worked to get individual businesses connected with fibre to their premises. The Welsh Government are moving forward, but according to the Library, many constituencies in Wales are behind the UK average when it comes to superfast broadband roll-out and the minimum of 10 megabits per second in the universal service obligation. We need to move forward on that. I say to the Secretary of State that we should have a cross-party group. We can be pioneers and lead the way. Wales, with its peripheral areas, rurality and sparse populations, can be a microcosm of the rest of the UK. I urge him to work with me and others on that. Many of the rural areas without superfast broadband also do not have mains gas, pay more for fuel and are greatly disadvantaged and socially excluded, so it is a serious issue I raise when I talk about broadband being a step forward for those areas. I hope that Members will work with me on that campaign.

We also need a transport system that works for the whole UK. I know that the Government have been pushing the case, with the Welsh Government and others, for better cross-border facilities, particularly in the south and north of Wales. It is important that we are an integral part of the UK network. The Secretary of State will get the backing of the Opposition if he pushes not just for electrification of the north Wales line but for better connections between north Wales and Manchester and Liverpool airports. That is essential. Many of my constituents, such as the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb), do not come down to Heathrow or Gatwick if they can get to Liverpool or Manchester. Making that easier for them will be a good deal for the people of north Wales.

I was in the Chamber for the beginning of the International Women’s Day debate, and was very moved by the comments in the opening speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Jess Phillips) about our colleague Jo Cox. Jo’s maiden speech will go down in history, not because she so sadly left us, but because she talked then about uniting people and highlighted that there is more that unites us than divides us. We need to go forward with that as an emblem.

One of my predecessors, Lady Megan Lloyd George, moved the first St David’s day debate, and she was one of the first pioneers: she stood up for women across the United Kingdom; she stood up for Wales as an integral part of the United Kingdom; and she was not afraid to talk about high unemployment and to fight for the national health service and social insurance. She had the good sense to move from the Liberal party to the Labour party, and she was a pioneer on those very big subjects. Wales can be very proud that in this House of Commons we have an annual debate, and also that throughout the year we are pioneering Members of Parliament across the parties, and that we work together for the best for our constituents, and work best for Wales within a United Kingdom as outward-looking internationalists. I am proud to open this debate, and—

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

rose—

[Albert Owen]

I am sure that my right hon. Friend wants to intervene, as he tried to earlier.

[Mr Hanson]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for allowing me to intervene. He raised a number of issues that he wants to put to the Government, and I want to ask if he would include among them the impact of the revaluation of business rates on businesses throughout England and Wales. The Welsh Assembly Government are helping businesses quite considerably, but I have, for example, only today received notice from one business that its business rates are rising from £22,000 a year to £66,000 from 1 April. Does my hon. Friend agree that the Government should be looking to address this in next week’s Budget?

[Albert Owen]

I certainly do, and if we had had more time I would certainly have raised the issue, because we did have a revaluation earlier in Wales. We had a transitional period, and now that that has come to an end many of our friends in England are looking to Wales to see what is happening. We need to work together to help in particular rural businesses that are being evaluated on the size of their premises. There are many horse-riding schools in my constituency, one of which I visited on Friday—I did not ride a horse—and it is suffering due to that.

I conclude by saying that the UK Government must take the Welsh dimension to Brexit far more seriously; I hope, and am sure, that they will. The Joint Ministerial Committee is important in areas that are wholly devolved to Wales. That voice of Welsh MPs and the Welsh people needs to be filtered through to Government level. The Prime Minister is the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom and she represents Welsh interests, and it is important that the devolved Administrations have a firm voice in those negotiations going forward.

I will listen to, and respond to, the debate.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

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[Chris Davies]

Just as when my right hon. Friend was Secretary of State for Wales, we are delighted to see Pembrokeshire people ruling over us, but we are also delighted to see them go back to Pembrokeshire on occasions, too—[Interruption] Even though he remains a great right hon. Friend.

My right hon. Friend stopped me as I was just about to mention that great institution that we call the Labour-run Welsh Assembly, which is proposing to litter not just Brecon and Radnorshire, but the whole of mid-Wales, with wind and solar farms by imposing measures on Powys County Council’s local development plan. Such a proposal would harm not only the excellent tourism industry that I mentioned earlier, but the attractiveness of mid-Wales for locals and those thinking of relocating there. It looks as if we will need one of those great St David’s miracles to prevent these plans from going through, but I can assure Members that I shall be fighting them all the way.

May I say again what a pleasure it is to see this House focusing on Wales issues?

[Albert Owen]

The hon. Gentleman is one of many Conservatives in mid-Wales who do not want wind farms. What alternatives for generating electricity would they like in mid-Wales? Would they like gas power or open-cast coal? What other source of energy do they propose to keep the lights on in mid-Wales?

[Chris Davies]

We would be delighted to see more hydro, and we are certainly delighted to support the tidal barrage and lagoon down in Swansea. Opposition Members do not seem to acknowledge that the tidal lagoon will benefit the whole of Wales, not just Gower, Swansea or south Wales—[Interruption.] I am delighted to have encouragement and support from across the Chamber for an agreement.

It is a pleasure to see this debate being held in the Chamber today. I look forward to working with the Government to build a stronger Wales long into the future.

--- Later in debate ---

[Albert Owen]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. As a Scot representing an English constituency overseeing Welsh affairs, you are most suited to your role. What we have seen today is the eloquence of the Welsh Members who are here today. They have been very passionate and proud of the Welsh dimension of British politics. I had hoped that the Secretary of State would respond to my request that Wales be the first part of the United Kingdom to have the broadband universal service obligation. We can be the pioneers.

It is good to see the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy sitting on the Front Bench for this debate. I hope that he has been able to put pressure on the Chancellor of the Exchequer to announce next week that the Swansea Bay tidal lagoon will be given the go-ahead. That would bring cheers right the way across Wales because we are the pioneers of energy production in this country, and we want to continue to be so in the future. It does not matter whether we are talking about new nuclear, wind, tidal or renewables, we want to be the pioneers in the lead.

On behalf of the Welsh Members, I wish to thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for the way in which you have overseen our proceedings, and to thank each and every Member from across the House and from each and every party—it is good to see that the Liberal Democrats have a 100% turnout today from Wales. We work together as a team—Team Wales—and on the closest day that we could get to St David’s day, we will shout from the rooftops that we are Welsh and proud, and the rest of the United Kingdom will sit and listen.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered Welsh affairs.

Wales Bill

Albert Owen Excerpts

Ping Pong: House of Commons
Tuesday 24th January 2017 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

With the leave of the House, Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to respond to the points that have been made. I thank all those Members who have made contributions today, and throughout the Bill’s passage through the House and the other place.

I am disappointed that the Opposition want to divide the House on the proposals we introduced in the other place on fixed odds betting terminals. Those proposals responded positively to calls that were made by colleagues on both sides of the House and by the Welsh Government. The Silk commission made no recommendations in that area, but having considered the Smith commission recommendations for Scotland we believe it is right to put the Assembly on the same footing as the Scottish Parliament and allow it to legislate on the proliferation of fixed odds betting terminals in Wales.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State asserts that only Members on this side of the House oppose the proposals, but Conservative Members of the Welsh Assembly oppose what the Government are proposing and have supported my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris), including Darren Millar from north Wales. Has the Secretary of State consulted his Assembly Members on this point?

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman makes a relevant point. We take the issue of problem gambling seriously. As I mentioned, we are committed to looking at all aspects of gaming machine regulations as part of a wide-ranging review of gambling. The regulation of fixed odds betting terminals is covered by the Gambling Act 2005, and we recognise that flaws exist in the current regulatory arrangements. They were introduced by the Labour party and it is time that they were reviewed. That is what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport is doing. We will act when that work has been completed, so I hope hon. Members will vote against the Opposition amendments and in support of the Lords amendments tabled by the Government.

The hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) suggested that the Bill showed a half-hearted approach to devolution. In the positive spirit in which the Bill has progressed through both Houses, I remind him that legislative competence orders were in place when we came into power in 2010 and started this process. A conferred model was in place then; the Bill introduces a reserved model. We have in place a needs-based funding settlement—something that has been called for for decades—and we are devolving significant tax powers. We have removed the water intervention powers and extended the Welsh Government’s powers in a significant range of areas, such as energy, fracking, elections and running their own affairs. A host of positive steps have been taken.

We all know that Members in the other place rightly pay close scrutiny to matters of constitutional importance in Bills such as this. Despite being in a minority in the other place, the Government were not defeated on the Bill, so I hope that Members from both sides of the House, and all Opposition Members, will recognise the significance of the Bill and, once and for all, welcome it because of the positive steps it takes in bringing about a devolution settlement that will last for a long time to come.

Lords amendment 1 agreed to.

Lords amendments 2 to 8, 11 to 27 and 33 to 35 agreed to.

After Clause 48

Gaming machines on licensed betting premises

Amendment (a) proposed to Lords amendment 36.— (Jo Stevens.)

Question put, That the amendment be made.

Leaving the EU: Infrastructure in Wales

Albert Owen Excerpts

Tuesday 17th January 2017 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr Flello. I, too, congratulate the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty) on securing the debate and, indeed, on the fact that today turned out to be an opportune moment to be discussing EU funding and the effect of leaving the European Union on infrastructure investment in Wales.

It is fair to say that there has been a contribution from EU funding into infrastructure investment in Wales. No one who represents any part of Wales would argue that that is not the case, but it is important to place that investment in context, in relation to the south Wales metro, for example, which is a fantastic project that will make a huge difference to south-east Wales and to which the Wales Office and the UK Government are fully committed. The UK Government’s investment in the scheme is £500 million, while that from European funding is £106 million. That £106 million is crucial, but it is important at the outset to clarify one point once again. I regret that, having made this point on numerous occasions, I have to make it again. I must be speaking very improperly if Opposition Members have not understood thus far. The guarantee is in relation to any EU-funded project that is put in place and secured prior to our leaving the European Union.

The decision as to whether a European project in Wales is in accordance with the UK Government’s priorities is based, in effect, on whether the Welsh Government are in favour of the project. European-funded projects in Wales are signed off by the Welsh Government. If the south Wales metro scheme is under way and there is a commitment of £106 million of European funding for the project, that £106 million will be underwritten by the Treasury. I hope that that is clear—it is as clear as I can make it. The Welsh Government make decisions regarding EU funding in Wales, and that might have been part of the problem in the past because, I would argue, the money has not been spent as well as it should have, but it is crucial to understand that if the Welsh Government are in favour of a project and it is signed off before we exit the European Union, that guarantee is in place.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

I apologise, Chair, for not being here for most of the debate. I have been in the Chamber trying to catch the eye of the Speaker on this very issue. The Minister is right that many of the infrastructure schemes are projects initiated by the Welsh Government, but Interreg, which has been important to west Wales and links to Ireland, may now be under different criteria. Will the UK Government, as signatories to the European Union, guarantee those projects in future? With today’s announcement of a common travel area, does the Minister envisage special status for west Wales ports?

[Guto Bebb]

As the announcement was made only today, it would be incorrect of me to respond immediately to the question of special status for west Wales ports. The hon. Gentleman is perfectly right that decisions relating to Interreg funding will remain with the British Government but, on EU structural funds in a Welsh context, I hope that I have offered the clarity that the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth requested.

It is crucial to understand that the investment in the south Wales metro is part and parcel of the electrification of the Great Western main line, because unless that line is electrified the metro system will not work as we envisage. Across the divide in this debate, we should at least recognise that the investment being made in rail infrastructure in Wales, both north and south, is both to be welcomed and crucial.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

The assurance I can give is that my Department and this Government are committed to the south Wales metro scheme, which includes the need to electrify the south Wales valleys lines. The excitement that is felt about that project is not confined to south-east Wales; as a north Walian, I see it as a coherent strategy to revitalise the valleys. Cardiff is a huge success story, with jobs being created, and the south Wales metro scheme will make it so much easier to ensure that people in the valleys can be part of that. Listening to this debate will perhaps make people forget that we have success stories in Wales. I understand and fully support the view that the project is dependent on the electrification of the Great Western main line, but although there have been delays with that work, that does not prevent this investment.

The £500 million coming from Westminster for the south Wales metro scheme is on top of the settlement for the Welsh Government, and it is important to state that the investment we are seeing in infrastructure such as the railways is complemented by a significant increase in the capital funding of the Welsh Government, which has come through as a result of budget announcements, and which I hope all hon. Members welcome.

In addition, there has been significant discussion about and development of the possibility of a city deal for Swansea and the west Wales region, which is imperative, and work is being undertaken on a north Wales growth deal. What is exciting about the development of a city deal in the north Wales context is the constructive engagement between Westminster, the Welsh Government and partners on both sides of the north Wales border. There is an understanding that a growth deal, and infrastructure investment as part of that, is dependent on co-operation between the north-west of England and north Wales, and between the Welsh and UK Governments. I stress again that the relationships that are being developed as a result of the work on the city region deal in Cardiff, the Swansea city region deal and the north Wales growth deal are building confidence between the Welsh and UK Governments.

[Albert Owen]

At the inception of the north Wales growth deal, it was envisaged that it would include European money, because it was linking England, Wales and the Republic of Ireland. Is the Minister suggesting that there will be a bid to Europe before we exit the European Union? If that is not the case, does he envisage the UK Government working with the Irish Government and the Welsh Government to get that funding?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman is well aware that the north Wales growth deal, in partnership with the Mersey Dee Alliance and so on, is dependent on a bottom-up approach. The answer to his question is that if the scheme and a deal are in place in good time to make an application for EU funding, it might be possible, but it depends on the timing. We are not a Government who say, “We know best in Westminster.” We are certainly not a Government who think Cardiff knows best. The city deals are based on growth from the bottom up. They are successful, and I hope they are proving their worth. It is a new way of working, and hon. Members should take it on board.

On investment in infrastructure and the co-operation between the Welsh Government and Westminster, the hon. Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds) highlighted an important point about investment in our digital infrastructure. We should at least willing be to concede that more than 11% of the entire funding at the UK level for broadband connectivity was allocated to Wales. I openly congratulate the Welsh Government on match-funding that investment with European funding. We know that great strides have been made on broadband connectivity in Wales, but more should be done. That is why I was absolutely delighted to be involved in a conference in Cardiff last week—it was attended by the Welsh Government Minister—on how we could further improve broadband connectivity and, more important, ensure that we have adequate mobile communications in Wales. We also need to look at how we ensure that those areas of Wales that will perhaps not be reached by broadband connectivity will be able to access broadband via 4G and, in the future, 5G services.

Money is part of that issue, and there is a need for investment, but there is also a need to look again at planning issues, which are the responsibility of the Welsh Government. A very positive outcome of the meeting was that the Welsh Minister highlighted that the Welsh Government would have a meeting this week with stakeholders in Wales to look at whether the planning infrastructure needs to be changed to make it easier to provide mobile infrastructure.

The key point is that there have been changes to the planning infrastructure in England to allow taller masts without the need for planning permission, but the approach taken by the Scottish Government has been very different, and that is perfectly fine. As we have devolved Administrations within the UK, there is nothing wrong with having a response in Wales that looks at Welsh needs, a response in England to the situation in England and a response in Scotland to the Scottish situation. The key point I stress is that co-operation on the issue between Westminster and the Welsh Government is of vital importance for communities in all parts of Wales and for the economic prosperity of Wales.

Leaving the EU: Wales

Albert Owen Excerpts

Tuesday 25th October 2016 Westminster Hall

[Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the effect on funding for Wales of the UK leaving the EU.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bailey. The debate is technically about budget decisions but, as we all know, making such decisions is not simply about working out how one reallocates figures. At its fundamental essence, the debate is about the people and the constituencies we represent, and their future, and that is where I would like to begin.

At the core of my constituency is the town of Port Talbot, which is home to more than 37,000 people. Since 1902, the beating heart of Port Talbot has been its steelworks—the largest and, I confidently say, the best in the UK, producing a third of the UK’s steel. Many people do not give a second thought to steel, but when they are driving their cars, having a can of baked beans or putting in a load of washing there is a decent chance they are using a piece of steel produced in Port Talbot. Everyone here today knows that the future existence of the works, as we call them, currently hangs in the balance.

The story of Port Talbot over the past 50 years is the reason for the debate. It is a story shared by many towns and cities across the country, from Stoke-on-Trent and its potteries to Dagenham and its Ford factory or Merthyr and its coal mines. Like them, Port Talbot was truly built, and grew, on the foundation of one industry and one company. Half a century ago, the works employed nearly 20,000 people out of a population of 50,000. Every other shop and business in the town depended on the custom of those workers and did a thriving trade, especially on Thursdays, which was payday. Times were good; the town centre was bustling and huge crowds would enjoy their summer weekends on the sandy beaches of Aberavon. As the plant churned out steel faster and better than anywhere else, we also produced extraordinary talent, such as Richard Burton and Sir Anthony Hopkins and, more recently, Rob Brydon and Michael Sheen.

The decline of the steel industry in the UK over the past 50 years can be seen in the standard of living in Port Talbot. The enormous lay-off of 6,000 people in 1980 led to huge numbers signing on to benefits. Today, the works employs just 4,000 people. They are in highly coveted jobs that still provide a decent wage, but nothing has replaced the jobs that were lost or the energy and pride that the industry gave Port Talbot. Icons of our community, such as the Plaza cinema, are boarded up, and smaller shops that depended heavily on steelworkers struggle on. Unemployment is 10% higher than in the rest of the UK, with one in four people relying on benefits to make ends meet. The level of education in our community is proportionally much lower than in the rest of the country. The people of Port Talbot are as warm, tough, hard-working and talented as anyone we could ever wish to meet, but many are losing hope that their lives will give them the kind of security that we all want. They simply do not see that there are opportunities for them. They know that we cannot recreate the jobs and economy of half a century ago, but they are frustrated that there are not the jobs and the economy for the next half century in which they can play a role.

I have told the story of Port Talbot today because it is a town that, despite recent improvements, is in long-term crisis. The future of my constituents hangs in the balance, and unless we take concerted action their prospects will continue rapidly to decline. That is why the debate is so important. As much as iron needs oxygen to be transformed into steel, our area, and the whole of Wales, needs investment to transform its future into one where people have security and opportunity.

And we now come to the crux of the matter. For years, the EU, in various guises, has contributed an enormous amount of investment in Wales, working closely with the Labour Welsh Government. Due to the consequences of the history I have described, south Wales qualified for the highest level of European structural and regeneration funding. All in all, EU structural funds and the common agricultural policy deliver well over half a billion pounds a year, in addition to money from other key funding areas such as higher education, culture and urban development. Working with Government, charities and businesses, the investment has made an enormous difference.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

European funding also provides leverage for getting matching funds from the UK and Welsh Governments, which makes it very valuable to our communities.

[Stephen Kinnock]

My hon. Friend makes a valid point. There is a clear multiplier effect with EU funding, because it provides the confidence that opens the door to all sorts of other sources and channels of investment. Although we are giving the raw data here, the multiplier effect is absolutely enormous.

Infrastructure built with EU funding is creating jobs and easier access for people and business, including through the Harbour Way road network, the new Port Talbot Parkway station and our town centre. That investment has helped to develop skills, funding 4,885 apprenticeships and 1,360 traineeships for young people, as well as programmes that have led to local people gaining 14,860 qualifications, which has prepared them for work. It has also been a catalyst for business, funding the Baglan energy park, upgrading our commercial centres and being a major investor in the SPECIFIC innovation centre. It has backed world-class industrial excellence in south Wales by being a principal backer of Swansea University’s bay campus, and has contributed to programmes—from historic gardens and activity centres to toddler play areas and community sports facilities— that have improved our family and community life, ensuring that one day Wales will once again dominate the Six Nations.

--- Later in debate ---

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bailey. Like the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) and my hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds), I am a democrat and accept the result of the referendum. Indeed, my constituency and Wales mirror the United Kingdom in that roughly 52% voted to leave and 48% voted to remain. We are talking about the future, and although the Prime Minister has said that she has a mandate from the 52%, we must talk for 100% of the residents of Wales and 100% of our constituents. It is important to put that on the record.

I was shocked, as many people were, that the previous Prime Minister, David Cameron, did not have a contingency plan. There was a simple question—leave or remain—and I could not believe that the Government did not cover both those bases, and particularly a leave outcome. We are in a difficult position. The captain—the then Prime Minister—has abandoned ship and left us rudderless and clueless about how to move forward.

I am a strong advocate of the European Union. Indeed, I am a strong advocate of unions—the EU and the Union of Wales, Scotland, England and Northern Ireland. I do not like the word “Brexit”, because it excludes Northern Ireland. We must have a better, more positive word about the United Kingdom’s future outside the European Union.

I worked with the Minister on structural fund projects before he came to this place. He knows how important structural funds have been to the development of Ynys Môn and north-west Wales. It is wrong of Conservative Members to say that that was a waste of money. The social cohesion that those funds have brought to my area after decades of under-investment is a testament to the European vision and the vision of the Welsh Government, which worked with the UK Government and the European Union to develop those areas.

My constituency is the gateway to Wales. It contains the major port of Holyhead, which links Wales to the Irish Republic. The Dublin to Holyhead route has been called the new Dover to Calais route, yet because of our exit from the European Union, that link is now uncertain. We need to look at that, because it will impact hundreds of jobs in my constituency. I remember working with our then MEP—it just happens to be Glenys Kinnock, the mother of my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock), who moved the motion—the Welsh Government Minister and the UK Government to get extra resources for that port. They understood the importance of linking Wales and the UK with the rest of Europe.

It is important that we have a vision for the future. Guaranteeing structural funds until 2020, as has already been committed to, is not good enough. We want a clear vision and a clear plan for the future. I want devolved Administrations, the farming unions and rural Wales to be part of that—I want them not on the fringes, but at the centre making decisions. Many of the issues that we are talking about are already devolved. I do not want them to be centralised here in the UK Parliament. I want devolved Administrations to have a direct voice in the future of Wales and the future of the United Kingdom.

--- Later in debate ---

[Gerald Jones (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bailey. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock) on securing this important debate and on the powerful case he made. We have heard from an array of hon. Members from across Wales who have a variety of views on what leaving the EU will mean for their constituencies, for Wales and for the people of Wales. The one theme that has come through is that the next few years will be an uncertain period for all, and for our communities and businesses in particular, as highlighted by my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris).

The Government have a clear and pressing duty to reduce that uncertainty. We have all heard of investment decisions that have been delayed and of businesses that are genuinely worried for their futures. People voted to leave, but they did not vote to damage our economy, so the Government need to step up and set out their plans more clearly to deliver the clarity and business confidence we so badly need.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) highlighted, Wales currently receives a significant net gain from the European budget because west Wales and the valleys qualify for the highest level of EU regional development funding. The Welsh European Funding Office estimates that projects in the 2007-13 round of funding created 11,925 enterprises, supported nearly 40,000 jobs and helped more than 72,000 people into work and 56,000 people into further learning. As my hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Christina Rees) said, 16,000 farmers in Wales get direct subsidies from the common agricultural policy, without which 90% would be in financial difficulty. My hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore) highlighted the positive impact that that funding has on farmers and the risk posed by leaving the EU.

Wales is set to receive £2.7 billion in structural funds up to 2020. We have heard examples of local regeneration already delivered across Wales. Many communities have been transformed with the support of EU funding, including many in my constituency. We heard my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon outline the iconic Swansea University campus and the Workways+ and BEACON schemes, which have been supported through the EU.

My hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) highlighted the important point of matched funding and what that means in supporting EU funding to go even further in regenerating Wales. My hon. Friend the Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) highlighted the regeneration projects in his area and the lack of reassurance coming from the Government.

Despite that, Wales voted in line with England to leave the European Union, and we respect that decision. However, Wales did not vote to become poorer or to damage its public services. That is why, as we begin the process of leaving the EU, we need to work together to ensure that Wales, its economy and its communities get the best deal.

[Albert Owen]

Does my hon. Friend understand that many people who voted to leave were under the impression that some £350 million saved from Europe was going to be spent on the health service in the UK? Five percent under Barnett would give Wales about £17 million. Does he think that should be honoured by the Government, or at least debated?

[Gerald Jones]

My hon. Friend makes a correct point. During the referendum campaign lots of lies were told and comments made, and the people of Wales and the rest of the UK voted for a specific set of circumstances. They did not vote to make our services poorer. Indeed, the investment promised by the Brexiteers—as highlighted by my hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds)—in the pledge signed on 14 June should be honoured.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

I am unsure which letter of 14 June the hon. Gentleman is referring to. I am referring to the Treasury commitment of October this year. I think that a commitment made this October trumps a letter of 14 June. The hon. Gentleman has also raised a number of issues about promises made in the referendum campaign that imply a lack of understanding of how a referendum campaign works. It is not about electing a Government. In the referendum campaign there were members of the Labour party on either side of the argument, and the same was true of the Government. To claim that promises made by the referendum campaign are binding on the Government is nonsense, and I think that the hon. Gentleman knows it.

[Albert Owen]

A few years ago the Minister would have been agreeing with us. It is the first time I have ever been accused of scaremongering for quoting the Chancellor of the Exchequer and Finance Ministers. As to the referendum campaign, we are not talking just about individuals making commitments. We are talking about the Foreign Secretary, the Secretary of State for International Trade and the Secretary of State for Exiting the EU. Those are three leading individuals. Will the Minister hold them to account, on behalf of the people of north Wales?

[Guto Bebb]

Again, I highlight the fact that comments made about the letter of 14 June do not reflect the Treasury’s position as it has developed. [Interruption.] Also, it is important to understand that those individuals from the leave campaign who joined the Government have done so with the intention—[Interruption.]

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

Electrification improvements on the south Wales main line will continue, and we look forward to delivering the promises that were made. We are looking at ensuring that the fast trains we need in south Wales will be delivered.

[Albert Owen]

I assure the Minister that none of us in objective 1 structural fund areas wear it as a badge of pride. He and I were on the same side in the 1980s and 1990s fighting for such funds; the then Conservative Government refused even to apply for them, which is why we are now in a dire situation. Will he commit, post-Brexit, to fight for the assisted areas scheme in Wales, to help the areas that need the greatest help?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman makes a constructive point, which I welcome. We are discussing EU funding in Wales post-2020, which will not happen because the people of Wales, along with the people of the rest of the UK, made a decision to leave the European Union.

It is imperative that we highlight the need to continually support Wales, which is clear from the Government’s commitments to Wales that have been highlighted: we are increasing revenue funding to the Welsh Government to £370 million; we have provided a funding floor to the Welsh Government, which has never been provided previously by the Labour party; over £900 million in new capital funding has been made available to Wales; there is a commitment of £500 million for the south Wales metro; we are waiting for proposals on the Swansea city deal; and we are in the process of encouraging a growth deal for north Wales. It is clear that the Government are delivering on our commitment to a regional policy that works for the whole of the UK.

I think the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen), who is making signs from a sedentary position that are unworthy of him, if I may say so, should be aware that the failure of EU funds in Wales to help our GDP position was not the fault of the EU funding. There is no denying that the way in which that funding has been utilised on three successive opportunities is a reflection on the Labour Government in Cardiff.

I am glad to say that the relationship between the Wales Office and the Welsh Government is extremely good, and I am glad to say that we have an understanding of the historical failures of EU funding streams. We are getting a constructive approach from the Welsh Government—unlike their colleagues in Westminster—who want to see a way forward in giving stability in the short term so that people who are committed to European projects know that those funds will be in place until 2020, which is precisely what we are offering.

Beyond 2020, it is important that we develop a strategy for the whole of the UK, which is exactly what we will do, working hand in hand with colleagues in the Welsh Government. Opposition Members should not take to their high horses and claim that they have no responsibility for the situation we face in Wales; they do, and they should acknowledge that. The people who vote for them highlighted their concerns in the referendum, which was a reflection, in my view, on the mismanagement of Wales by the Welsh Government for a very long time.

Oral Answers to Questions

Albert Owen Excerpts

Wednesday 19th October 2016 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

The situation is very clear. The proposals for the south Wales metro are part of the Cardiff city deal. They are a significant investment, and they include a contribution of around £110 million from the European fund. My understanding from the Treasury is that it will, if necessary, underwrite that element of the contribution, but if the proposals move forward in a timely manner, the European elements will be funded by the European Union.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

I associate myself with the words of the Secretary of State on Aberfan. In 1966, I was the same age as the schoolchildren who were killed in that tragedy. My predecessor Cledwyn Hughes, who was Secretary of State for Wales, said that that was the darkest day of his life when Aberfan lost a generation.

On rail integration, can the Minister tell the House whether he has had discussions with the Welsh Government, and indeed the Irish Government, about connectivity between rail and the port of Holyhead?

[Guto Bebb]

I assure the hon. Gentleman, who is a keen advocate of rail links in north Wales, that the Wales Office has had discussions with the Welsh Government, with the Irish Government and, just as importantly, with the Rail Minister at Westminster.

Wales Bill

Albert Owen Excerpts

Monday 12th September 2016 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

Negotiations are ongoing on the devolution of the franchise and how it can be achieved. If we accepted the new clauses and the amendment, that would set the whole franchise process back considerably. It has already been advertised, and we are anxious to press ahead as possible with the aim of reaching an agreement with the Welsh Government to fulfil the franchise obligations.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

The franchise would not change the Wales boundaries if we had a different model. We have a model in Wales, Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water, which is not for dividend, and which the Secretary of State fully supports. What is the difference between having our water run by a not-for-profit organisation, and having our railways run in that way?

[Alun Cairns]

A host of considerations, debates and discussions are taking place between the Wales Office, the Welsh Government and the Department for Transport, and we are conducting detailed negotiations over the franchise arrangements. We need to find suitable arrangements that will protect Welsh passengers and the accountability and responsibility of the Welsh Government, but let us not forget that that extends across the border. The Manchester-to-Cardiff line, for example, enters significant elements of England. The fact that a significant number of passengers will be domiciled or residing in English constituencies, and their right to seek redress through the parliamentary process, are details that we need to continue to discuss.

We are in a positive position with the Welsh Government, and I am anxious to continue on that basis. Accepting the new clauses and the amendment could undermine that positivity, and the franchising process. We intend to use other powers—under the Government of Wales Act 2006—to devolve franchising functions, in agreement with the Welsh Government. That would achieve many of the objectives that the new clauses and the amendment seek to achieve.

--- Later in debate ---

[Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab)]

I stand to speak to new clause 2 on fixed odds betting terminals. I welcome this amendment to the Wales Bill to confer legislative competence on the National Assembly for Wales to enable it to address the issue of FOBTs in Wales.

As Members will know, I have a long-standing concern about the growth and proliferation of FOBTs across the United Kingdom, and especially in Wales, as the Member of Parliament for Swansea East. That concern is shared by many in Parliament, and that has led to the formation of an all-party group on fixed odds betting terminals, of which I am proud to be the chair. The group is running an inquiry into FOBTs to assess their impact, and we will report to the Government early in the new year.

The new clause would confer legislative competence on the National Assembly for Wales to enable it to address the issue of FOBTs in Wales. That follows the adoption by the Welsh Assembly last year of a Back-Bench motion, supported by Members of all four parties then represented in the Assembly, calling attention to the social problems arising from the increase in gambling, and calling for consideration to be given to devolving responsibility over this matter to enable the Assembly to address it effectively.

The new clause is to be welcomed because it will add some additional control over FOBTs located in all new betting premises in Wales. Given the current low level of regulation surrounding FOBTs, any additional regulation is to be welcomed. The new clause would also, rightly, give Wales parity with Scotland in relation to FOBTs—there is no reason why there should be greater protection of the vulnerable in Scotland than in Wales or, indeed, in the rest of the UK.

However, while the new clause is a useful first step, it does not go far enough in protecting vulnerable communities and high streets in Wales. In particular, it is not retrospective, so it could enhance the value of current betting shops and will not limit the current proliferation of bookmakers and FOBTs. Instead, it will create a protected monopoly of existing betting shops. Moreover, the proposal could be challenging to implement on competition grounds, since it will alter the composition of new betting shops as opposed to current ones. How we implement the new powers in the Bill would also be a question to consider.

Many have reached the conclusion that the only effective way to tackle the problem of FOBTs is to reduce dramatically the stake that can be wagered on these machines from its current level of £100. That has not been addressed in the new clause, and it is the size of the stake that many see as the real issue with FOBTs.

There will be a “Panorama” programme tonight on this very issue, which will expose the problems that these machines are causing and the need for far more stringent regulation of them. I urge all Members of the House, if possible, to watch the programme. Nevertheless, I support the new clause as a first step.

[Albert Owen]

I want to concentrate my remarks briefly on new clause 3 and the rail franchise. What the Secretary of State has just said to the House about Dŵr Cymru is very helpful, so I will not go over that. However, it is important that the powers are devolved to the Assembly when these franchises come up. The Government have not got a good record when it comes to franchises for Welsh railways, and we saw the debacle with Virgin Trains. When the Wales and Borders franchise was set up, it was clear that responsibilities would lie within Wales. This very simple new clause is asking that the Assembly have the powers to ask publicly owned bodies to bid for the franchise. Let us not forget that the north-east coast railway was taken in-house when it got into trouble. There is already a facility within government for publicly owned running of railways. The new clause would give the Welsh Government the opportunity to put it out to franchise so that the excessive profits that have been made by Arriva trains are reinvested for the public good in Wales. That would be a positive step forward.

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[Albert Owen]

I did not understand the rationale of the Government when the Secretary of State tried to explain that earlier. Not only are German national companies operating, but UK publicly owned companies have been running the east coast line through the Department for Transport. It is a logical step to allow the Welsh Government to follow the same principle in offering this opportunity to publicly owned companies for the benefit of customers.

Let us be honest about our railways: this was a privatisation too far in the 1990s. It was rushed and it has not been working. We do not have privately run companies; we have an awful lot of public money subsidising private companies from across the globe, not just from this country. The new clause asks that the Welsh Government take responsibility and that moneys—profits—that are made are not paid in dividends to large shareholders but reinvested for the good of the customers in Wales. Let us give the Welsh Government the opportunity to be bold and radical, as they have been with water, and to put passengers first.

[Hywel Williams]

I rise to speak to amendments 61 and 66.

Amendment 61 seeks to devolve Welsh language broadcasting and Welsh language media to Wales. There is currently a discrepancy in that the Welsh Government have powers over the Welsh language but no powers over S4C—Sianel Pedwar Cymru—or Welsh language media, including radio and some print media. The Welsh language media are of great cultural, economic and linguistic importance to Wales. In his report on the creative industries in Wales, Professor Ian Hargreaves argued that the level of public debate about S4C was not in line with its importance, both culturally and economically, and asked whether this was

“a consequence of the fact that S4C is funded…largely…from London”.

It is all very quiet, possibly because the money is coming from London—or was at that time, at least. Further, he said:

“The UK authorities involved (Ofcom and DCMS) lack the instinct and self-confidence to animate this uniquely Welsh debate and the Assembly Government lacks the formal mandate.”

This is the basis of my argument.

S4C and its service have endured a difficult period of financial instability following last year’s autumn statement, when the then Chancellor announced cuts to the S4C grant from £6.7 million to £5 million by 2020. The first year of those cuts has been reversed, but only the first year. Last week we were told that the BBC Trust intends to freeze S4C’s funding from now until the end of the current licence fee agreement in 2022. This was portrayed in the media as a victory for the industry, with stability achieved, but it is a cut in real terms. With the proposed review of the funding and governance of S4C, and the BBC charter up for renewal in 2017, the future of the Welsh language channel still remains mired in uncertainty. The UK Government may have an agenda to cut funding for broadcasters in the long term. That is indeed a matter for the UK Government, but why should people in Wales be bound by decisions in London regarding media platforms that, by definition, operate through the medium of one of Wales’s official languages? Of all matters, this is surely one that most clearly pertains to Wales.

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[Hywel Williams]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. This matter will probably be addressed again when the Bill goes to another place. Perhaps we could have some discussions with the Welsh Language Commissioner in the meantime, to see whether her concerns are still justified.

[Albert Owen]

The Under-Secretary has said that the Welsh language belongs to this House as well as to the Assembly, so is the hon. Gentleman as concerned as I am that we are unable to conduct debates through the medium of Welsh?

[Hywel Williams]

That is a very interesting and pertinent point. Welsh, of course, is a British language. I will regale the House, if I may, with a point that surprised the predecessor of the hon. Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds) when I made it in the House some years ago when he was having a go at me about my Welsh language enthusiasms. I told him that English is also a Welsh language, which promptly shut him up.

I will turn briefly to Government amendment 13, which removes the requirement for a statement by the Presiding Officer to be made in both Welsh and English. As has already been said, the Assembly’s legal requirements and Standing Orders already require statements to be bilingual, so the amendment removes duplication and I am glad to welcome it.

On amendments 63 to 67, amendment 1 and new clause 2, we would welcome the devolution of gambling, betting, lotteries and the associated licensing. The hon. Member for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris) has done a great deal of work on the issue and I commend her for it. By devolving responsibility for those issues, I am sure we will be able to create solutions that really fit the needs of the people of Wales.

I hope, of course, for a complete capitulation on all those matters by the Secretary of State, but if, unaccountably, he is not that way inclined, I look forward to his comments later this evening or to whatever he would care to correspond with me about by letter. I will not, therefore, seek to divide the House.

Wales Bill

Albert Owen Excerpts

Tuesday 5th July 2016 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards]

That is another valid dimension. It was clear that the younger generations were very much in favour of remaining a part of the EU. The morning after the referendum, I was the guest speaker at the graduation service of Coleg Sir Gâr, the local further education college, and in particular the Gelli Aur campus, which specialises in agriculture courses. I started my speech by apologising to those generations of young people—mostly 16 and 17-year-olds—who had been unable to participate in the referendum but for whom the decision made on their behalf will arguably leave a far greater legacy.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

A consensus seems to be growing here on 16 and 17-year-olds having the vote. Rather than Wales mirroring some other parts of the United Kingdom, we should be radical in moving forward even further by talking about compulsory voting in Wales. Seventy four per cent. voted in a referendum, but if those others who felt disfranchised voted, the result might have been different. What we are talking about is radical Welsh politics.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I am grateful for that intervention, and what the hon. Gentleman says will be part of the debate as we go forward. I recently took part in a radio programme with the hon. Member for Cardiff Central (Jo Stevens), and we had a vibrant debate on this issue. My one concern about compulsory voting is that it moves voting from being a civic right to a civic responsibility, which is a very big change in attitude. I am not saying that I have closed my mind to it, and I acknowledge that the hon. Member for Cardiff Central made some persuasive arguments, but I shall reserve my judgment until the time comes.

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[Jonathan Edwards]

I fear that we are getting into a debate about PR, and my party is strongly of the view that we need to go down that road. We will have to address these issues as we go along. The last election was a wake-up call where one party had 50% of the seats but only 30% of the votes.

[Albert Owen]

Speaking as someone who was involved in the first referendum, I know that this was a big issue. It was argued that the Assembly would be different and we would have a hybrid system, which was put in place to help the smaller parties such as the hon. Gentleman’s party. It is not the fault of the Welsh electorate that they do not vote for his party or do not like it. We have moved considerably from this place, which has a full first-past-the-post system, to a hybrid system. In north Wales, Labour topped the poll but did not get one Member.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I am grateful for that intervention. The people of Wales will listen to what politicians have said today, and they will make their own judgment. My personal view, for what it is worth, is that the number of seats that a party has within an electoral body should reflect the percentage of votes they receive during the election. We will see how things develop in Wales.

My hon. Friend the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd spoke at some length about clause 10. Needless to say, I agree with every word she says, and I will join her in the Lobby to vote against it later this evening.

Amendment 33, tabled by my hon. Friends, is designed to ensure that the legislature of Wales has to authorise the drawing of money from the Consolidated Fund and that such funds can be used only for the purposes for which they were authorised. This is straightforward, and I hope that the UK Government will accept it.

Under clause 14, the Secretary of State will no longer be statutorily bound to visit the National Assembly each year. This is a positive move, which equalises the relationship between the Westminster Parliament and the National Assembly. It might also save the embarrassment of some of the less active Members in the National Assembly. I seem to recall a story from the last Assembly in which the previous Secretary of State for Wales, the right hon. Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones)—I am disappointed that he is not in his place, because I think he would have enjoyed this—had spoken more words than the previous Assembly Member for Islwyn.

Amendments 38 to 45 are technical, and I hope the UK Government will accept them. They deal with the naming of the legislature and the establishment of a legislatures commission in the event of a name change, and ensures that the provisions in clause 15 extend to both the English language and the Welsh language names.

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[Byron Davies (Gower) (Con)]

Thank you, Mr Gray, for giving me the opportunity to speak about the Bill today. I am delighted to see my neighbour, the hon. Member for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris), on the Opposition Front Bench.

By and large, I am happy with the measures and the devolution of some further powers to the Welsh Assembly. To be perfectly frank, I have never been a devolutionist, but I accept where we are and we must make it work. I know that the Secretary of State for Wales, my right hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns), and the Under-Secretary of State for Wales, my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb), will be doing everything that they can in the Wales Office to ensure that these further provisions are a success and contribute in a positive and constructive way to the Welsh economy and Welsh national life.

However, my concern about tax-raising powers is long standing, and it would be remiss of me if I did not raise on behalf of the people whom I represent in Gower the issue of a referendum on tax-raising powers. I am well aware and have no doubt that we have all seen enough of referendums to last a lifetime, but one on tax-raising powers for Wales would be slightly less contentious and would take place in a slightly better spirit.

The National Assembly for Wales, and devolution in Wales, has been on something of a journey over the past two decades. There have been mistakes, many potholes in the road and things that could have been done differently, but we have taken this course together and I am sure that everyone is committed to working to ensure that devolution works for the people of Wales. There is no doubt that Welsh national life has benefited from devolution, and it is important that people feel that our institutions are close to the decision-making process. There is still work to do on such issues, but things do not happen overnight at such a young institution. Speaking as a recent former Assembly Member, it is promising to have seen some progress and maturity in the Assembly as an institution since the last election.

I want to make it clear that when there has been a major decision that would greatly affect the devolution process, the people of Wales have been consulted every time. There have been close votes. Indeed, the one that created the National Assembly was on a knife edge, but the Assembly was created. The Welsh people then voted to give the Welsh Government law making powers. Now, the next stage of that process, and perhaps one of the most important, is to give the Welsh Government the power to levy taxes. It is argued that such powers are vital to economic growth, families’ security and the future prospects of the Welsh nation. If used well, tax-raising powers could create huge economic opportunities that drive our economy forward and increase the fortunes of our people, their children and things that they consider important to them. If they are used poorly, however, that could place a burden on family budgets, put encumbrances on small and medium-sized business, which are the lifeblood of the Welsh economy, and drive key companies and economic figures away from the burdens of a tax-laden Wales to Scotland, Ireland or England.

These powers are as crucial as any that have gone before, and if we are to be true to the Welsh people and to the devolutionary process that we have undertaken over the past two decades, it is only right and correct that we allow the Welsh people a voice on these powers. It is their democracy, their devolutionary process and their futures that are being decided, and some might quite rightly say that if they were worthy of being given the choice then, why not now?

The Under-Secretary has previously said that a referendum was not an absolute manifesto promise, but I contend that it was implied to the people of Wales and to my constituents that a referendum would be offered. I must admit that I am disappointed that it will not be on offer as I campaigned fiercely on the issue. However, after a great deal of soul searching, I will not vote against the Government on this. I hope that we can continue a dialogue on this issue and others to ensure that this Bill provides the very best outcome for our people in Wales.

[Albert Owen]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship once again, Mr Gray. Many points that I was going to make have already been raised by other Labour Members, especially by my hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith). None the less, I wish to discuss the idea of a referendum on income tax that was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty), who is no longer in his place. The hon. Member for Gower (Byron Davies) talked about the Conservative manifesto, but I am more concerned with the fact that, under the Wales Act 2014, it is clear that if there were to be a referendum on the devolution of powers to raise income tax, it would be held before the powers could be transferred to the Assembly.

I said on Second Reading that I am a devolutionist. I have long argued that major constitutional changes should be made by referendums, and I supported that in 1997 and 2011. However, in recent weeks I have been persuaded by some of the arguments on whether we should hold referendums on this specific issue and a range of others, including on having a go at the Government of the day. I make that point seriously, because I am not convinced that this is the major constitutional change that it once was. The Assembly already has tax-raising powers, but we do need some safeguards, which is why I will support amendment 11.

I know that you will not allow me to digress too much, Mr Gray, but let me say that I used to support the single transferable vote for elections. In theory, it is great textbook stuff, but as someone who has campaigned regularly in the Republic of Ireland, I can say that the practical implication of that has put me off. I have also been put off referendums over the past few weeks. None the less, we do need to move forward on income tax, and amendment 11 is the right vehicle to help us do that. What it suggests is that both Houses of Parliament in London and the National Assembly for Wales in Cardiff Bay would make that decision. They would have a mature debate on income tax, in which we would look at the whole fiscal framework and the settlement that we have at present.

Like my hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli, I am worried that if we were to give the Assembly the power to raise income tax, this Government would say, “There you are. You now have the tools to do the job. Get on with it and start raising your own taxes”, while they cut the block grant and other fiscal measures. Our Welsh constituencies would end up poorer, which worries me considerably.

It would be fair and right to have safeguards, and it is what the people of Wales want. This Chamber of elected Members and the second Chamber should look at the matter in greater detail along with the National Assembly for Wales. It is right to have that consensus and some safeguards to ensure that the people of Wales are not worse off as a consequence of the measure.

We all know that the Barnett formula has a flaw, and we all argued that in the 2015 election—it was in all our manifestos. I have concerns because for every pound that is spent in the UK, Wales gets £1.15 in return. It gets more than England, but not as much as Northern Ireland or Scotland. In the future, if these income tax measures were given to the Welsh Assembly by a Government who were keen to get rid of them without having that proper debate in both Houses of Parliament and the Welsh Assembly, I would worry that the people whom we are here to represent would be in a worse position. I understand the theory, but it is the practice that worries me, and for that reason, I will support amendment 11.

[Dr James Davies (Vale of Clwyd) (Con)]

With regret, I stand to oppose clause 16, which relates to the removal of the requirement for a referendum on the devolution of income tax or a proportion of it to the Welsh Assembly. I want to give my reasons for that. In Scotland there was a referendum before such a change took place. Also, the manifesto on which I stood for election—both the UK version and the Welsh version—reiterated the requirement for a referendum. When I and other members of the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs scrutinised the draft Wales Bill, it contained no such proposals. We must ask ourselves why at this stage we want to remove the requirement to have a referendum. In other words, why do we want to repeal this requirement that is in the Wales Act 2014? It is clear that the Welsh people would not vote in favour of the devolution of income tax, so this is an attempt to circumvent the will of the people, in my eyes.

Why do we wish to devolve income tax? Financial accountability has been talked about, but I believe that unless and until the Welsh Assembly Government levy the vast majority of taxes, they will continue to blame this place for not being in a position to provide them with limitless funding. Of course, any situation whereby they would levy most taxes would equate more or less to Welsh independence, which I feel the Welsh population do not favour.

If these powers are transferred, what will happen to the level of taxes? We are told by some that the powers would not be used, and if that is true then why would we wish to transfer them to Cardiff? Some, of course, fear that tax levels would be increased and, clearly, from my point of view, that would harm the Welsh economy. Some have suggested that tax could actually be reduced. That is highly unlikely, but if it ever occurred it would undoubtedly lead to calls from some nearby English regions for similar reductions. Any competitive advantages would be eliminated.

From a north Wales perspective, there are 50,000 cross-border commutes every day and 1 million people of working age live on either side of the border. This is a political border that does not reflect how people live their lives or how businesses operate, and there is already cross-border disparity in the standard of public services, which leads to much frustration. Why would we want to make the situation worse? I believe that differential tax rates could lead to confusion, further complication of an already complex tax system, additional associated costs, and consequences, intended or otherwise, for where people choose to live and work, whether that is in England or Wales.

We have just undergone the latest Assembly elections and, as in the past, disinterest and disengagement were evident, with votes cast primarily on the basis of politics in this place and with reference to the EU referendum, and I am afraid that sums up the level of enthusiasm for more Welsh devolution, at least in my area. It is clear that there is no call or mandate for additional powers and particularly not for tax-raising powers, and I see this as simply yet another step in the gradual break-up of the UK, which my residents do not want. Indeed, now that the prospect of partial income tax devolution has been raised, we are already seeing calls for further tax devolution. I feel strongly that this is an unnecessary and undesirable proposal and, with great regret, I will have no choice but to vote against the clause.

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Scotland had the opportunity of a referendum; Wales does not. Bringing forward the clause is wrong and the timing is wrong. The Assembly has not yet, over 17 years, fully delivered on many matters for which it has responsibility. I could go on for hours about health, education and agriculture.

[Albert Owen]

I heard the hon. Gentleman speak on Second Reading and I am sure he is going to repeat a lot of what he said then about how he dislikes the Assembly, but before he does that, will he seriously consider Labour’s amendment 11, which suggests that we have a pause and that both Houses of Parliament and the Assembly debate this important issue, on which we are to represent our constituents? I respect the hon. Gentleman’s view. He has heard the reasons why I am moving away from demanding a referendum. Will he consider supporting that amendment?

[Chris Davies]

I may consider it, but at the moment I am thinking about going further, with deep regret, and looking to my first vote against the Government—my first rebellion, which is of great concern to me.

My position is not a criticism of the Welsh Assembly per se or of devolution. It is a criticism of the present incumbents down in Cardiff Bay. They have not delivered for us. Why on earth are we now looking to give them tax-raising powers? Sadly, I do not feel that they would be able to deliver that properly for the people of Wales. With great regret, I will not be able to support the Government’s proposal in this matter.

Wales Bill

Albert Owen Excerpts

Tuesday 14th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right about that, and this is the function of many of the clauses and much of the motivation behind them.

The Bill also strengthens Welsh devolution by devolving further powers to the Assembly and the Welsh Ministers. To complement the Assembly’s existing powers over economic development, the Bill devolves responsibility for ports in Wales. That will enable the Welsh Government to consider the development of ports in Wales as part of their wider strategies for economic development, transport and tourism. Major trust ports will remain reserved, given their national, UK-wide significance. That means Milford Haven, given its importance to the energy security of the whole of the UK, will remain reserved. We are also devolving consenting responsibility for all energy projects in Wales up to 350 MW, aside from onshore wind projects which are being devolved through the Energy Act 2016.

The Bill also streamlines the consenting regime for energy projects, providing a one-stop shop for developers by aligning associated consents with the consents for the main project. When the Welsh Government make a decision on a new energy project, they will also be responsible for consenting to the new substations, access roads and overhead power lines relating to that project.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

Will the grid connections be devolved as well? For the larger projects, many of the planning consents are local, but I am unsure as to the actual connection to the grid.

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question. The purpose of the Bill is to give that one-stop shop in terms of consents for energy projects and all the consequences that follow thereafter, from access roads to overhead power lines and the connections thereafter. Those will of course be conducted in discussions with National Grid plc.

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[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies) on his speech. I agree with him on one thing: the need for an English Parliament to balance things out. I am sure that that debate will come forward and that he and I will be on the same side for once.

I congratulate the Government on pausing the Bill, which was the right thing to do because they got it wrong the first time round. The St David’s day agreement was not a major declaration in Welsh history—it will not be remembered as that—but it did move us in the right direction, and the Government did listen. I pay tribute to the Welsh Affairs Committee for its pre-legislative scrutiny because that highlighted some of the draft Bill’s weaknesses. I am sorry that the process took 12 months and it could not get on to other things, but it is important that before we bring forward major legislation in the House of Commons, we have the pre-legislative scrutiny for which Members—two of them, my hon. Friends the Members for Wrexham (Ian C. Lucas) and for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan), are sitting here to my left—fought very hard. Before, Bills were rushed through without the necessary scrutiny.

I very much welcome the fact that the Bill has now been changed, with major parts of it dropped, not least, as my hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) said, the necessity test, which I felt was a step too far. Rather than a measure for moving forward with devolution, it looked a bit like the old secretary-general giving powers and the nod to what the Welsh Government could do, which did not sit very comfortably. I look forward to improving the Bill and, by doing so, we should act more as visionaries than victims. We have had devolution for a number of years and it has done a lot of good things. The additional powers will empower the Welsh Assembly to do more good things for the people of Wales, moving forward and taking the people with it. That is the idea of devolution.

I am a long-standing pro-devolutionist and I have fought three referendums—in 1979, 1997, and 2011. The score in those referendums was exactly the same as that for Wales on Sunday—a 2-1 victory. I am not so confident about the outcome of the referendum later this month, but I hope to be on the winning remain side. To me, devolution is about decentralisation and greater democracy, or it is about nothing.

The UK state has changed considerably since 1997. It is more open, democratic and decentralised. I congratulate all parties on playing their part in making the United Kingdom a more decentralised and democratic state. I also welcome the support from many Conservatives. The hon. Member for Monmouth, a former Member of the Welsh Assembly, has changed his stance on devolution, and the right hon. Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones) also used to be against it. It is important that we bring people with us as we move forward positively.

[Kevin Brennan]

Does my hon. Friend agree that at the conclusion of the passage of the Bill and after the EU referendum, the time will genuinely have arrived for a constitutional convention to consider the future of the United Kingdom and its constitution, particularly with regard to how the nations of the United Kingdom and their devolved institutions relate to each other?

[Albert Owen]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who makes a very important point. There has to be a time limit if we are going to have a constitutional convention, because we do not just want academics producing papers and having long arguments. We should draw on the experiences of the British state as it is today, with the degree of decentralisation that has already taken place, and look at the English question. I genuinely agree with the hon. Member for Monmouth that that needs to be looked at in a positive way. I welcome the extension of powers to the regions and cities in England.

I talked about the many people who have moved from being against devolution to now being very active pro-devolutionists. Many in this House, including those in the two nationalist parties, do not think we are going far enough or quick enough. I understand and respect that, but as a pro-devolutionist I want the devolution settlements to work for Wales and for the UK. I want us to move forward in a positive way, bringing the people of Wales with us. Rather than just having ideologies, we must have practical devolution that works. We are moving forward, and this Bill helps in many ways in doing that. It is no good having devolution that just devolves powers from London to Belfast, Edinburgh or Cardiff—I want it to be spread within the nations and within the rest of the United Kingdom. I have seen some bad examples in this regard. When I served on the Welsh Affairs Committee and we went up to Scotland, we saw a lot of centralising of services. I worry about that. As a real devolutionist, I think we need better devolution within the devolved countries, as well as England, to get the balance right. I want to see this Bill improved, but I say that as someone who is an advocate of practical devolution. I welcome the devolving of more powers.

I am not going to deal with the detail of the constitutional issues, but I do want to talk about the practical implications of devolving powers in the context of ports, transport, and energy. I have a specific interest in ports, as the Member for Ynys Môn, which has a principal port that has grown. I have seen how the flaws in the devolution settlement have hampered some of the development of ports. I recall a new berth being built in the early 2000s—I think it was 2003-04—when we had to get special consent from the Department for Transport, the Welsh Office and the Welsh Government, with one saying that it was not possible to build within the port. The new provisions clarify that. When the Welsh Government take over responsibility for ports, they will be able to develop them in a practical way, with the local authority doing the planning as well. I welcome that.

As a former member of the Energy and Climate Committee, I welcome the move towards devolving powers on fracking and on petroleum extraction on land, and, I think, if I am reading the Bill correctly, at sea in territorial waters. Perhaps the Minister could clarify that when he winds up. It is important for the Welsh Government to have those consents in the same way as they have consents for offshore wind and other things. Wales could be really radical in low-carbon energy and the low-carbon economy if it has the tools to do so. I disagree with my hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) on nuclear power. I think that we need to have baseload low carbon alongside renewable energies. We need to have the proper mix, and Wales can be a leader in low-carbon energy. I welcome the consent for power stations up to 350 MW. That is a very good step forward.

I am concerned, however, about the grid connections. The Bill gives consent to the Welsh Government in planning and various other areas, but it does so only for the distribution grid, not the national grid. The measures relate to developments under 132 kV. I would like some clarification on that, because in my area and many other areas of Wales, National Grid projects are going ahead that will have a great impact on local communities. The Welsh Government and local government are best placed to look at those, rather than National Grid, which is an organisation that looks to its own private interests.

[Hywel Williams]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on the work that he has been doing on this matter in Ynys Môn, which is similar to that which I have been doing in Arfon. I share his concern that National Grid is not accountable to the people of Wales. It has supposedly carried out extensive consultations, but there has been no real consultation in our area.

[Albert Owen]

In the past couple of years we have highlighted the importance of giving the energy regulator more teeth to deal with that issue. We need the regulator on one side and the consenting authorities—which will be the Welsh Government, I hope, and the local authorities—on the other, so that we can put pressure on National Grid to take into account the impact that energy generation has on the environment and local communities, as well as on the national interest. I accept that there is progress in the Bill, but I would like clarification on that.

Clause 46 places a greater duty on the Secretary of State to consult Welsh Ministers before amending or establishing renewable energy incentives, such as feed-in tariffs and contracts for difference. That is important, because when Welsh Ministers then give consent, they will understand what it means for local developers and the total project. I would like to hear greater detail in Committee on what that means. A one-stop shop for energy developers sounds very good, but the involvement of multinationals and other developers will make it difficult.

I welcome the consent for fracking and extraction. As with other minerals, it is important that the Welsh Government have that. It is a tidying-up exercise.

I have already touched on port consent. The road transport powers are welcome, but they do not go far enough. Wales needs a more integrated transport system that takes into account sea, road and rail, rather than an approach that breaks them up. I want greater powers over rail. The franchise is coming up for renewal both of the Virgin Trains service on the west coast and of the Arriva Trains service on the Welsh borders. The Welsh Government will have an input, but the approach could have been tidied up a little bit better.

The Bill addresses predominantly constitutional issues, but it has important practical implications for Wales. I welcome the scrapping of the necessity tests and the fact that consents have been simplified. That is very good. I also welcome the reserved powers model, which a lot of Members from across the parties have worked together to establish.

I am concerned about income tax, an issue I argue about with some of my colleagues at the National Assembly. I have been involved in a number of referendums. If we think that the European referendum is going to be close, let us not forget how close the result was in 1997. I remember the differential between Scotland and Wales. I believe that if income tax powers for Wales had been on the ballot paper, the result would have been different. I say that as someone who argued the positive case for devolution, and that is what I am now doing for remain. We have to be delicate in the way we talk about devolving income tax and what it really means to the people of Wales. If the Government are saying that the Bill will introduce it without further consultation with the people of Wales and without a proper financial settlement, we will be in trouble. I do not want a huge gap appearing as a result of the block grant being reduced and it having to be made up out of general income tax.

I am not against the principle of devolving tax-raising powers to the Assembly—we have already done that in other measures in the Wales Act 2014—but I have also consistently supported the principle of holding a referendum when a major constitutional change is proposed, and I think that the devolution of income tax is one such change. That is the principle that I held in 1997, and I still hold it now. We need a further debate on the issue, because it would be wrong for the UK Government to make that decision after saying in 2014 that they were not going to make it. Indeed, the Conservatives, who are now in the majority here, told the country that they did not want to devolve income tax powers. I am cautiously concerned about the way in which the change is being made.

[Paul Flynn]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the result of a referendum that asked the question, “Do you want to pay more or less tax?”, would be so predictable that it would not be worth having the referendum?

[Albert Owen]

I understand what my hon. Friend is saying, but he is a democrat, like me.

[Paul Flynn]

Up to a point.

[Albert Owen]

Well, I am a total democrat by comparison with my hon. Friend. The tax-varying powers that the Scottish Government enjoy were given in a referendum. That is my point. There has to be consistency on these matters.

[Hywel Williams]

Will the hon. Gentleman concede, however, that framing a proper and understandable question that allows for a clear response is not easy? Does he have a suggested wording for such a referendum question?

[Albert Owen]

I have not thought of the wording, but I agree with the hon. Gentleman that democracy is difficult. We have to make a positive case for things and do so honourably. I did not understand, and was not able to explain in great detail, the question on extending powers in 2011, but I argued, along with members of Plaid Cymru, that the Welsh Government deserved to have lawmaking powers. Tax-varying and lawmaking powers are simple questions. As my hon. Friend the Member for Newport West has said, it may be difficult to win an argument, but we have to stick to principles. I have been consistent on this matter since 1997, and I do not think we can just jump into it after all the different elections we have had. However, given the current referendum, I understand the climate of fear that people find themselves in at present. I want to be radical and forward looking, and I want the Welsh Government to be so, too.

When the Minister winds up, I want him to clarify the issue of election powers. On the issue of lowering the voting age from 18 to 16, am I right in thinking that the Welsh Government will have the power to do so and that it will apply to Welsh Assembly and local government elections only? If there were a Welsh-only referendum, such as one on tax-varying powers or another Wales-specific issue, would the Welsh Government have the power to lower the voting age from 18 to 16? I am an advocate of that and have argued the case for it in this House for some time. This is an opportunity for us to give those responsibilities to the Welsh Government.

My hon. Friends the Members for Cardiff West and for Wrexham have been campaigning hard on compulsory voting. This is a great opportunity for the Welsh Government to be radical. Let us give them the tools to do the job. If the Welsh Government decide that they want compulsory voting in Wales, that would be a good step forward.

[Alun Cairns]

rose—

[Albert Owen]

I give way to the Secretary of State. I realise that I have taken up more time than I wanted to.

[Alun Cairns]

The hon. Gentleman is making a considered speech. I have had further information since the earlier questions about compulsory voting. I am happy to clarify that compulsory voting is permitted under the Bill as drafted.

[Albert Owen]

That is excellent news, and it is on the record. It is a victory for the three of us on the Labour Back Benches that we will now have the opportunity for compulsory voting in Wales, which I think is a radical step. Hansard will make that known, but I hope the media in Wales are watching the progress of the Bill. After all, it is not dry as dust, but is about the real issues affecting people, including compulsory voting.

[Alun Cairns]

rose—

[Albert Owen]

I am sure the Secretary of State is going to reconsider his considered view.

[Alun Cairns]

I just want to underline the fact that it perhaps provides even more justification for the justice impact assessment that may well be brought forward in relation to the legislation.

[Albert Owen]

It is the Secretary of State’s job, with his extra responsibilities and wages, to decide on the details. As a Back Bencher, I am saying that I am very proud that the Welsh Government have the opportunity to have compulsory voting.

As I have said, I want devolution to work. I want the Bill to work, but I want it to be considerably improved. I think the name of the National Assembly for Wales is a matter for the Assembly itself, but I do not see anything wrong with the current name. I am not a revolutionary, but I remember from reading about the French revolution when I was studying history that the French people wanted a national assembly. They did not fight for a parliament, and I do not think there is much in that word. I am very proud, as I know the French people are, of having a National Assembly. The National Assembly is a good term: it is a good name and it has a good meaning. It is a sovereign body, and I think the name should be kept, but that is my personal view.

I want a strong Wales, a strong United Kingdom and, yes, I want the United Kingdom to remain within the European Union. I agree that the Bill will provide some extra tools for the Welsh Government to do their job. I think there has been progress, and I congratulate Carwyn Jones on being re-elected as First Minister of Wales. I hope that he will get a good Bill once it has gone through its parliamentary stages, so that he can continue to do his job and serve the people of Wales with a Labour programme that will have been enhanced by the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Byron Davies (Gower) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn). I begin by thanking my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales and his predecessor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb), for the constructive way in which they have engaged across party divides to try to ensure that the new Bill will be a positive step in the devolution process and a positive move for the people of Wales.

I might not have started out being one of the great advocates of devolution, but I have, through my years as a Member of the National Assembly, come to realise that the devolutionary process is something that is important not just to Welsh political life, but to Welsh cultural and national life on many levels. I am sure that the Bill will continue to improve and add to the devolution process, and I look forward to scrutinising it during its passage through the House.

I will talk briefly about a topic that has been well-exercised today: taxation powers for the Welsh Government. There is a famous American slogan that there should be no taxation without representation. I am concerned that the new tax powers for Wales will receive no seal of approval from the people of Wales and no democratic process, and will involve no representation for the people of Wales. At the key stages of the devolutionary process, the people of Wales have been able to debate and have informed discussions about their future and what they want their democracy to look like. Of course, that process led to the creation of the National Assembly and law-making powers for Wales. Taxation powers represent a major step in devolution, so they deserve the same level of debate and discussion.

As an Assembly Member, I am worried about the level of scrutiny not just in the Assembly, but in Welsh political life, where there is limited media and political analysis. That is part and parcel of the Assembly being a young institution in the process of finding its distinct place in Welsh life, and its own methods of scrutinising Government and debating major issues.

The huge sea change in the level of scrutiny is something that has really struck me since I have become a Member of this House. One cannot fail to be impressed by the House’s extremely long and detailed process of scrutinising Bills. The Investigatory Powers Bill that has just been through the House is a key example of that. We had Committee reports, a Public Bill Committee and, perhaps more importantly, a constructive debate about not just the Bill, but society, technology and the crucial issues of privacy and security in a world that is becoming ever more dangerous. The process highlighted the crucial role of a constructive Opposition in the passage of legislation. It highlighted the significant role of the Back-Bench MP and reflected positively on a Government who wanted to engage in a process with all parties to achieve the very best piece of legislation.

This is the process that is missing in Wales. There has, until now—I am sure some of the new Assembly Members will change this—been very little in the way of Back-Bench scrutiny of proposed Welsh legislation. I have witnessed Bills being essentially nodded through, with serious and sensible amendments refused simply because they have come from an opposing party. It has simply been a case of, “This is the legislation. It is what we as a Government want and that’s the way it is going to be.”

That is not the way an institution that now has major powers over everyday life in Wales should be run. We need a wider debate in Welsh society and political life about our democratic processes, and our scrutiny over the Welsh Government and their processes. This is a genuine cross-party point. I am sure that Members on both sides of the House agree about the need to discuss these issues without fear or favour to ensure that the devolution process is the very best it can be.

[Albert Owen]

I hear what the hon. Gentleman says about scrutiny in both this House and the Assembly. I chaired the Investigatory Powers Public Bill Committee, so I know the length of that process. Does he agree that one reason why scrutiny is lighter in the Assembly is because it has fewer Members? The number of Members who are not on the Front Bench and in the Executive is an issue. Does he think we should look at the number of Assembly Members as this Bill progresses?

[Byron Davies]

That is a difficult question to answer. Should we increase the number of Assembly Members, particularly in the current climate in which the amount we spend in the world of politics is scrutinised? I had great difficulty coming to terms with that when I was an Assembly Member, but the honest truth is that if we are going to have proper scrutiny, we will have to consider increasing the numbers. I accept that many AMs are in government and unable to scrutinise.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Davies]

The hon. Gentleman is quite right, and I stated that earlier in my speech. However, there is collective responsibility down there, and it is the Assembly Government who are making those decisions.

This is the same Assembly that, when given the independent living fund by the Department for Work and Pensions, passed it on to local councils, but not before taking a so-called administration fee. That cost the adult social care budget for people in my local authority area of Powys £49,000.

Devolving further powers before the Welsh Assembly proves that it can utilise the powers that it already has is like hiring the same cowboy builder who has built a structurally unsafe house to come back and build the extension. It is unsound to make the assumption that piling more bricks on top of a wobbly Jenga tower will make it sturdier. It just does not make sense. Surely this is not the pillar of accountability.

[Albert Owen]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on reading his party’s manifesto, which was a brave step. But seriously, we have just had an Assembly election, and his party went down from second to third. He says that he wants to bring power closer to the people, so is he arguing for more powers for local authorities? That would in some way devolve powers within Wales.

[Chris Davies]

As much as it saddens me, I actually quite agree with the hon. Gentleman. The record so far suggests that it would be better to have devolution to local authorities than to a centralised Government in Cardiff Bay.

--- Later in debate ---

[Albert Owen]

Earlier the hon. Gentleman referred to something similar to what I believe in, which is a confederal system in the UK. Is he now advocating that and not independence? Is that his party’s line?

[Jonathan Edwards]

As I said when I made those remarks, I always try to be helpful in my politics. My party’s position is independence for my country—

[Albert Owen]

Say it.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I have made that clear in my contribution. However, if I was a Unionist such as the hon. Gentleman, I would make exactly the same argument as him, and I commend him for it.

Before I was rudely interrupted by my constituency neighbour, the hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart), I was talking about the boundary review. Wales is about to lose more than a quarter of our political representation. To put that in context, Wales will experience the largest proportional cut in representation here while simultaneously being denied powers and responsibility for our devolved Government. If the boundary changes go through without our significantly equalising the Welsh settlement with that of Scotland and Northern Ireland, there will be a further democratic deficit. With that in mind, I will vote against the boundary changes unless we have the same powers as Scotland.

The constitution of the UK is rapidly changing. This is a time for bold and visionary acts in the finest traditions of this House. I am afraid that the Bill does not reflect the realities we face, nor does it respond to the practical problems that arise from tinkering with the settlement. We will endeavour to strengthen it during its passage so that our country is not treated like a second-class nation.