Wales Bill

Chris Davies Excerpts

Tuesday 5th July 2016 Commons Chamber

[David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)]

I begin by genuinely welcoming the two new members of the Opposition Front-Bench team. One, the hon. Member for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris), I have not known for that long, but she has always shown her willingness to work in a non-partisan way when that is called for. The hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) and I go back many decades. Although we have never really agreed, I think it is wonderful that he has found his way on to the Front Bench. I suspect it will take me even longer than him to get there, but you never know. We might even see a nonagenarian on the Front Bench one of these days, and I will put myself up if I am still here.

I will address the thrust of the Plaid Cymru amendments—most importantly, amendment 21 and the general view that Plaid Cymru Members want to underline the absolute permanence of the National Assembly for Wales within the British constitution. I speak as someone who campaigned against the Welsh Assembly—I was one of the leaders of the campaign against it, back in 1997—and voted against it. Subsequently, there was a discussion among those of us in the no campaign about what we should do next. After all, the Assembly had gone through on a turnout of only 50%, with a majority of less than 1%. About 25%—just one in four—of the Welsh public had voted for a National Assembly of Wales. There were discussions about whether we should demand a rerun, or take to the streets and protest that such an enormous constitutional change was taking place with the support of just one in four of the population. We discussed all those things and the anger that we felt about the plan for the Assembly going ahead.

We decided in the end that we needed to show some humility. It was not a case of whether we were right or wrong but of listening to the will of the Welsh public. Subsequently there was a referendum a few years later, when I campaigned against further powers for the Welsh Assembly. I do not like to say that I was wrong—no politician ever does—but I accept fully that I was on the losing side and that, once again, the Welsh public had spoken and made clear their support for a Welsh Assembly. I therefore wish to say that, as someone who was probably more anti the Welsh Assembly than anyone else in this Chamber—well, I would have said that a few years ago but now I am not so sure—I totally and utterly accept that the Welsh Assembly is there, and there to stay.

Despite my constitutional misgivings about the Assembly, and the fact that I predicted at the time that it would always be seeking more powers every couple of years, I have always thought that were obvious advantages to having a body that could take some control over matters that affect the people coming to see us in our surgeries. People always want to talk about health services and the NHS, for example, and I have always thought it easier to get hold of a Minister in the Welsh Assembly than Ministers in Parliament, probably because they do not have quite as much to do. Members of the Welsh Assembly are generally able to be in their constituencies more often than Members of Parliament, for obvious logistical reasons. There were always some advantages to be had; my concern was that we had left the English question unanswered, although we are starting to address that now.

I want to make it clear that I believe that it would be constitutionally outrageous for any party to come along and try to get rid of the Welsh Assembly. I certainly would not support that. I do not for a second think it is realistic to hold another referendum on the principle of whether we have a Welsh Assembly. I was on the losing side of that argument. Whether I was right or wrong is immaterial; I fought that case, I lost, and the people of Wales have spoken.

[Chris Davies (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con)]

I am delighted to hear my hon. Friend’s comments, and one always listens to every word he says. Does he regret that there was no mechanism in the first Wales Bill to allow another look at whether the Assembly should exist?

[David T. C. Davies]

There was no mechanism but there was a second referendum a few years later. I forget the percentages, but a much clearer level of support was expressed for the Welsh Assembly in that referendum. Realistically, now, by the time of the next election there will be people who have lived their entire lives with a Welsh Assembly. I do not think that it is a greatly loved institution, but it is not greatly hated, either. It is just accepted, as part of the furniture.

The only point I would make to the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts) is this. Regardless of whether her amendment 21 gets the support of the Committee today, I think it is absolutely inconceivable that there will ever be any attempt to get rid of the Welsh Assembly. It is our duty to work with it and to remember what the Welsh public have said to us twice through referendums. I hope that we will all take the same view about all referendums in which the Welsh public have expressed their voice.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr James Davies (Vale of Clwyd) (Con)]

With regret, I stand to oppose clause 16, which relates to the removal of the requirement for a referendum on the devolution of income tax or a proportion of it to the Welsh Assembly. I want to give my reasons for that. In Scotland there was a referendum before such a change took place. Also, the manifesto on which I stood for election—both the UK version and the Welsh version—reiterated the requirement for a referendum. When I and other members of the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs scrutinised the draft Wales Bill, it contained no such proposals. We must ask ourselves why at this stage we want to remove the requirement to have a referendum. In other words, why do we want to repeal this requirement that is in the Wales Act 2014? It is clear that the Welsh people would not vote in favour of the devolution of income tax, so this is an attempt to circumvent the will of the people, in my eyes.

Why do we wish to devolve income tax? Financial accountability has been talked about, but I believe that unless and until the Welsh Assembly Government levy the vast majority of taxes, they will continue to blame this place for not being in a position to provide them with limitless funding. Of course, any situation whereby they would levy most taxes would equate more or less to Welsh independence, which I feel the Welsh population do not favour.

If these powers are transferred, what will happen to the level of taxes? We are told by some that the powers would not be used, and if that is true then why would we wish to transfer them to Cardiff? Some, of course, fear that tax levels would be increased and, clearly, from my point of view, that would harm the Welsh economy. Some have suggested that tax could actually be reduced. That is highly unlikely, but if it ever occurred it would undoubtedly lead to calls from some nearby English regions for similar reductions. Any competitive advantages would be eliminated.

From a north Wales perspective, there are 50,000 cross-border commutes every day and 1 million people of working age live on either side of the border. This is a political border that does not reflect how people live their lives or how businesses operate, and there is already cross-border disparity in the standard of public services, which leads to much frustration. Why would we want to make the situation worse? I believe that differential tax rates could lead to confusion, further complication of an already complex tax system, additional associated costs, and consequences, intended or otherwise, for where people choose to live and work, whether that is in England or Wales.

We have just undergone the latest Assembly elections and, as in the past, disinterest and disengagement were evident, with votes cast primarily on the basis of politics in this place and with reference to the EU referendum, and I am afraid that sums up the level of enthusiasm for more Welsh devolution, at least in my area. It is clear that there is no call or mandate for additional powers and particularly not for tax-raising powers, and I see this as simply yet another step in the gradual break-up of the UK, which my residents do not want. Indeed, now that the prospect of partial income tax devolution has been raised, we are already seeing calls for further tax devolution. I feel strongly that this is an unnecessary and undesirable proposal and, with great regret, I will have no choice but to vote against the clause.

[Chris Davies]

Last week, I had the great pleasure of congratulating the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) on regaining his seat on the Front Bench after a gap of 27 or 28 years. That was in a slightly different role to the one he has taken today, but I am delighted to see him there. I am also more than delighted to see the hon. Member for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris) sitting next to him. Many Members will not know that a certain television company did a programme—it should have been a series—about two MPs trying to get to Westminster. They were me, now the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire, and the hon. Lady. She was my leading lady and I was her leading man, and I am delighted to see that the star is now shining brightly on the Labour Front Bench. That, I am afraid, is where the pleasantries stop, and pleasantries they are, I say to the hon. Lady.

I, too, have reservations and concerns about clause 16. I made my objections clear on Second Reading just a few weeks ago, and here we are, too quickly for my liking, already at Committee stage. I have great concerns about a referendum on income tax. I stood on many a doorstep, on many a street, on many a farm throughout two and a half years of the election campaign, and as we got closer to the election, it was a clear manifesto commitment that we would deliver a referendum on this very important matter. I am deeply disappointed that the Government have decided to do away with that referendum. I have made these feelings clear to various members of the Government and I have made my views clear in this place. Sadly, the Government have decided to go on with the clause and I, too, will vote against it today.

--- Later in debate ---

[Albert Owen]

I heard the hon. Gentleman speak on Second Reading and I am sure he is going to repeat a lot of what he said then about how he dislikes the Assembly, but before he does that, will he seriously consider Labour’s amendment 11, which suggests that we have a pause and that both Houses of Parliament and the Assembly debate this important issue, on which we are to represent our constituents? I respect the hon. Gentleman’s view. He has heard the reasons why I am moving away from demanding a referendum. Will he consider supporting that amendment?

[Chris Davies]

I may consider it, but at the moment I am thinking about going further, with deep regret, and looking to my first vote against the Government—my first rebellion, which is of great concern to me.

My position is not a criticism of the Welsh Assembly per se or of devolution. It is a criticism of the present incumbents down in Cardiff Bay. They have not delivered for us. Why on earth are we now looking to give them tax-raising powers? Sadly, I do not feel that they would be able to deliver that properly for the people of Wales. With great regret, I will not be able to support the Government’s proposal in this matter.

[Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con)]

I apologise for the fact that I was not here at the beginning of the consideration of this group of amendments. Sadly, I was detained by another engagement.

Like my hon. Friends the Members for Vale of Clwyd (Dr Davies) and for Brecon and Radnorshire (Chris Davies), I have huge concerns about clause 16. I speak as the Secretary of State who took the Wales Bill 2014 through this House. Unlike my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd, I was an enthusiast for tax-varying powers for the Welsh Assembly, because I thought that that would introduce a measure of accountability and potentially give the Assembly Government some incentive to introduce a more competitive tax regime in Wales. However, the Wales Act 2014 clearly states that such tax-varying powers should not be implemented until they are triggered by a positive vote in a referendum, and it is still right that such a referendum should be held; after all, tax-varying powers include the power to increase taxes.

If one expects the people of Wales potentially to pay more tax, it is only right that they should first be asked if that is what they want. That is what happened in Scotland in 1997, when the referendum had two separate questions, including one on taxation. Unlike hon. Members who have already spoken, I do not believe that it is beyond the bounds of possibility that the people of Wales would vote for tax-raising powers; after all, that is what the Scots did. However, imposing such a competence on the Welsh Assembly Government without giving the people of Wales the right to have their say in a referendum is utterly disrespectful of the people of Wales; after all, what was good enough for the Scots should be good enough for the Welsh.

I also share the concerns of my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd. I stood in a general election only 14 months ago on a manifesto that made it entirely clear that there would be a referendum before tax-varying powers were triggered, and I do not believe that anything has changed 14 months later. If we make a manifesto pledge, we should adhere to it, so, like my hon. Friends, I will, sadly, be voting against the Government on clause 16. My right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan), who is also a former Secretary of State, has asked me to indicate that she will do likewise. Sadly, she is not able to be here at the moment, but she too regards this as a point of principle. I urge my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to reconsider. By pressing ahead, he is breaking faith with the electorate of Wales.