HGV Driver Shortages

Viscount Thurso Excerpts

Monday 13th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I recognise that my noble friend wants to open the floodgates to EU drivers, but I sense that he may be waiting quite a while for the flood to arrive, because as I have outlined there is a shortage of drivers across the EU. What we must do is focus very hard on recruiting and training domestic drivers, and getting some of them to return. That is where the heart of this lies.

I note what my noble friend says on training. I do not know where the £7,000 figure comes from, because I actually phoned up an HGV trainer the other day—not for myself, of course—to ask and they said that it was around £3,000. By removing the staging requirement to get a C licence and a C+E, we will have combined the two training elements together. We would also expect training to reduce to get a C+E articulated licence. As my noble friend may know, there are private sector loans available and many of the training schools will make those available to the trainees, but of course it would be better if industry paid for the training in the first place.

[Viscount Thurso (LD)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware of the recent research which shows that HGV drivers dislike their conditions and having to stay away overnight? With that in mind, will the Government look again at the plans for rail freight villages and palletisation of freight? That would put a lot of freight on to the railways and allow the drivers to do the last-mile deliveries, which would keep them nearer home and be more eco-friendly. I commend it to the Government.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

I thank the noble Viscount for his suggestion. We in the Department for Transport are great supporters of rail freight. We have made significant investments in rail freight. It is not suitable for many of the goods moved by road, but where it is suitable we have various grants available to slightly subsidise the cost of rail freight and get that freight off the roads.

Oral Answers to Questions

Viscount Thurso Excerpts

Thursday 5th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

1. What recent representations he has received from catering, maintenance and other staff of the House on the management of the House.

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)]

The Commission has received no recent formal representations from staff in those areas on the management of the House. The staff have, however, had a number of opportunities to express their views to the management, including in the recent staff survey.

[Mr Sheerman]

The right hon. Gentleman will know of my long campaign for the House to be not just an average or good employer but the very best exemplar of an employer. It is no secret that I want us to adopt the John Lewis model for the staff in this place, who work so hard for us. When are we going to engage those members of staff and stop employing them on short-term contracts or using agency staff on a long-term basis? Let us have secure employment and a decent way of living.

[John Thurso]

I have enjoyed throughout this Parliament the exchanges I have had with the hon. Gentleman on this matter, and the direction of travel he indicates is one that we are very much seeking to take. The recent leadership and management survey shows that on all leadership and management criteria we have improved our score over that of the civil service generally, and on nine out of 10 such criteria we have improved our score on last year’s. There have been some uncertainties, for example, on the security services, and we have done the right thing in bringing those in hand. That has reduced uncertainty and is very much in line with what he wishes. I am sure that in the next Parliament the Commission will continue in that direction.

[Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the best ways in which Members of this House could show their appreciation for their staff and ensure the security of their employment is by using our facilities much more heavily than they do?

[John Thurso]

I entirely agree with my right hon. Friend and salute all he has done with his Committee to make that a realistic possibility.

The Leader of the House was asked—

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[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

4. What training and advice is provided to House staff on how to deal with transgender people visiting the parliamentary estate.

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)]

All House staff dealing with the public are expected to undertake mandatory diversity and inclusion training, and the same standards are expected from all service providers, including the Metropolitan Police Service.

[Kerry McCarthy]

On 4 February, there was an LGBT history month event here. I had complaints made to me by two people who attended the event that security guards at the Cromwell Green entrance had repeatedly addressed them as “sir”, even though they had made it quite clear that they did not wish to be addressed in that way. The Met is looking at this—I think the House of Commons Commission has referred it to the Met—but will the right hon. Gentleman make sure that they do not have to suffer such treatment in future?

[John Thurso]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for bringing that case to our attention. Indeed, as I believe she knows, this has been referred to the Metropolitan Police Service, whose staff these were. It is taking this extremely seriously and we have made it clear to the Met how seriously we take it. As far as our own staff are concerned, diversity and inclusion is a key part of the core induction and training for all visitor assistants and all staff generally. We take these matters very seriously and we are determined to make sure that this is not repeated.

The Leader of the House was asked—

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[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

6. What proportion of waste on the parliamentary estate was recycled in (a) 2010 and (b) the most recent period for which figures are available.

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)]

The percentage of all waste arising from the parliamentary estate that was recycled or recovered in 2010 was 52.1%. In 2014, it was 62.8%. This shows a fairly considerable improvement; however, we are a little below what we need to be to make sure we are on track for our 2020 target.

[Mr Hollobone]

Which recyclable waste streams are in practice the least recycled, and what are the plans to improve that in the next Parliament?

[John Thurso]

My hon. Friend asks me a question to which I do not have an accurate answer—or, rather, to which I do not have an answer. I am sure that an accurate answer exists, but I just do not have it. I should make that distinction quite clear. However, what we do is operate to the waste hierarchy, of which I am sure he is aware. First, we try to ensure that the waste does not happen. When it does happen, we seek to recycle it in the most effective way possible. We only dispose of it if it is absolutely necessary.

The Leader of the House was asked—

Oral Answers to Questions

Viscount Thurso Excerpts

Thursday 22nd January 2015 Commons Chamber

[John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)]

3. What estimate he has made of savings that could be achieved through sharing more services with the House of Lords.

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)]

There has been no overall assessment of the potential financial savings from increased joint working with the House of Lords. Subject to what is said later today in the debate on the report by the House of Commons Governance Committee, the Commission expects to write to the Lords House Committee shortly to propose an initial joint meeting later this year. I would not be surprised if the issues raised in the Governance Committee’s report about greater bicameral working were on the agenda for that meeting.

[John Robertson]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman, and he will know that there is wide support for that in the Governance Committee. Members would like to see such work go forward as quickly as possible. The trouble with this place and the other place is that things can be dragged out for some time, so will he ensure that we can move down the road a lot quicker than usual?

[John Thurso]

As the hon. Gentleman will know, both Houses are sovereign, so we must make progress through dialogue and agreement. However, I am much encouraged by how the joint service for procurement was set up last year, and I believe that there is an appetite in both Houses to reach agreement. I will certainly do all I can to assist in that.

[Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD)]

I know that my right hon. Friend has extensive management experience in the hospitality industry. What constraints does he see in making this place efficient compared with his private sector experience?

[John Thurso]

I thank my hon. Friend for that extremely interesting question. I would observe that when one is appointed chief executive of an organisation in the private sector, one is in charge, one takes responsibility and one gets on with it. In this place and the other place, we are responsible to the Members, so it is necessary to have a structure that properly reflects that. One therefore tries to take the best bits of governance that one has learned from the private sector but use them in a way that serves the House and its primary purpose of legislation.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

The right hon. Gentleman also knows that this is not just about cost saving. Many of us are in favour of serious economies, but we want an effective system across both Houses that delivers good improvements to the quality of our ability to do our job. Many of us want co-operation on security and other things with the House of Lords, but this is not just about cost cutting; it is about getting a better service to Members of this House.

[John Thurso]

I agree wholeheartedly with the hon. Gentleman and that is exactly what has been happening. Let us consider, for example, what is happening with the security services being brought in-house. That is the most effective model and will deliver the best service. The joint procurement service has been put together between the two Houses. The primary reason for that was to increase governance, but it is now also producing savings without any detriment—indeed, there is an improvement—to services. I am at one with the hon. Gentleman on that objective, and I believe we are starting to deliver it.

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[Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)]

6. What the responsibilities will be of the director of the Parliamentary Digital Service.

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)]

Rob Greig, currently chief technology officer at the Royal Opera House, has been appointed as director of the Parliamentary Digital Service. His main duties will be to develop and implement a digital strategy for Parliament and bring together Parliamentary Information and Communications Technology and the Web and Intranet Service into a unified, digital service. A copy of his job description will be placed in the Library.

[Michael Fabricant]

I am grateful for that answer—unlike the Carol Mills disaster, this appointment seems to be well made. I understand that Rob Greig will be responsible to the Clerks of both the House of Commons and the House of Lords. Does the right hon. Gentleman think there will be a conflict of interest, and if there were to be, how might it be resolved?

[John Thurso]

I preface my answer by saying that our important debate this afternoon will touch on a great many of these matters. Such things are currently being debated and need to be worked out. This is a bicameral appointment which, under the Parliament (Joint Departments) Act 2007, is made by the corporate officers of the two Houses. We will clearly have to work out the best line management going forward, but I believe that with the current flow of good will in both Houses, that should be eminently achievable.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

Will this person also talk to the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, which regulates most of the provision of IT services for Members of Parliament? Neither printer in my constituency office has worked since November, and IPSA will not let me buy a new one. I have literally no means of sending a letter to my constituents—[Interruption.] Or to Government Members. Surely a vital part of a Member’s job is to be able to write to their constituents.

[John Thurso]

If the hon. Gentleman will allow me, I will look into that specific case because I do not have an accurate answer for him. My belief is that a repair service would fall under PICT and should be provided, but I would like to check and give him an accurate answer.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

Oral Answers to Questions

Viscount Thurso Excerpts

Thursday 4th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)]

Mr Speaker, the specifics of the work of your commission are not directly the responsibility of the House of Commons Commission. However, I understand that work is at an advanced stage, and that it is planning to publish its report on 21 January.

[Stephen Mosley]

Eighteen-year-old Rachael Farrington from Cheshire has established the successful “Voting Counts” website and social media campaign, which intends to engage young people with politics and encourage them to vote. How is the Commission working with young e-activists like Rachael to encourage young people to get involved with parliamentary democracy?

[John Thurso]

I congratulate my hon. Friend’s constituent on her work. It sounds absolutely fascinating. All I can tell him, as far as the Commission is concerned, is that the commissioners heard evidence on this matter and it will be reflected in its report. However, it is not for me to anticipate that. In addition to the more traditional evidence sessions, the commissioners met a wide range of people in a number of towns and cities in the United Kingdom.

[John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)]

Is there not a fear that any introduction of electronic voting, which is partly what we are talking about, could give rise to abuses? Would it not be more sensible to stick with the system we have now on the basis that if it is not broken, don’t fix it?

[John Thurso]

I have to again point out that the House of Commons Commission is not actually responsible for this matter, so as its spokesman I cannot comment on it. However, I know that Mr Speaker, whose commission it is, has heard what has been said and I am sure that it will be taken into account.

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Speaker’s Commission on Digital Democracy is looking at innovative ways of engaging with the public on democracy, including e-voting and other matters? Does he not think that we should consider such important ways forward in conjunction with consideration of how the public regard voting and democracy in the present day?

[John Thurso]

My hon. Friend makes an exceptionally good point which I may personally support. However, as the spokesman for the Commission, I have to refer to the answer I have already given and say that I am sure his words have been heard by those who need to hear them.

[Mr Speaker]

I call Mr Andrew Bridgen. Not here.

Oral Answers to Questions

Viscount Thurso Excerpts

Thursday 23rd October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

4. What steps he is taking to reward staff for exceptional work in supporting hon. Members.

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)]

May I begin my answer by reiterating, on behalf of Members on all sides of the House, the gratitude for the excellent work of all those who serve us at every level in the House service? More specifically, as part of the current three-year pay agreement for the main pay groups, there is a commitment to review the existing performance management arrangements and to introduce a new system that can reward staff based on their overall contribution, including service to Members. In addition there are also a number of non-financial ways in which staff who provide excellent service can be recognised and rewarded. One particular example is through the regular “thank you” events that are now held by the acting Clerk.

[Mr Sheerman]

That all sounds fine and good, but should we in this House not be trying to be a model employer, and a model employer would not employ lots of people on short-term contracts to substitute full-time employees with agency staff? Also, surely we should be an employer that can boast that our staff have the highest morale and highest commitment. They do have the commitment, but the morale is going down week after week, and early retirements of good, valued members of staff is the result.

[John Thurso]

On morale, the most recent staff survey shows that 84% of the staff spoken to would recommend the House of Commons and PICT as a good place to work, and that is up on last year’s 76%, so I think that actually morale has been improving, particularly since we have come to a settlement on pay and other matters. With regard to contracts, I would point out that the House, in its endeavours to become a model employer, has got rid of zero-hours contracts and some of the people who were on zero-hours are now on contracts that are appropriate to the work they do. The House always looks to produce the best contract for employees and to retain its staff. We do not always succeed as best we can, but we certainly always endeavour to do it and will continue to do so.

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

5. What recent representations he has received on the case for a rescue cat being adopted to control the mouse population on the Parliamentary Estate.

[John Thurso]

That suggestion has been made from time to time, most recently and specifically by the hon. Lady, who suggested a rescue cat or two from Battersea Dogs and Cats Home in our exchanges on 6 February. The idea has a clear appeal and has therefore been given full and proper consideration by the House authorities. However, that consideration showed that there are very clear practical and technical difficulties, and therefore this has led to a decision not to accept the generous offer.

[Miss McIntosh]

I am grateful for the full reply and the fact that the Battersea Dogs and Cats Home has offered a rescue cat. It is a matter of fact that the mouse population is spiralling out of control, particularly in areas where food is being prepared, which poses a clear health hazard. Will the right hon. Gentleman review his decision and, using the same model adopted by Nos. 10 and 11, consider having a rescue cat that can be released in the evenings to keep the mouse population under control? If mice can be close to the source of food and pose a health hazard, one would think it would be perfectly sensible to introduce a cat to keep the mouse population down.

[John Thurso]

The hon. Lady has made reference to the significant rodent problem in this place, and measures are being taken to combat that through pest control. On the possibility of having a cat, given the scale and size of the estate, it would be necessary to have a great number of cats to make any real impact, and having a herd of cats on the Parliamentary Estate would present a number of difficulties. I am also advised by my own Chief Whip that herding cats is quite difficult.

The Leader of the House was asked—

Oral Answers to Questions

Viscount Thurso Excerpts

Thursday 10th July 2014 Commons Chamber

[Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)]

4. What recent assessment he has made of the quality of service to hon. Members provided by Parliamentary ICT.

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)]

Parliamentary ICT services are scrutinised by the Administration Committee on a regular basis. The most recent report to the Committee was on 16 June and related to the migration of mailboxes to Microsoft 365 services. This summer, all parliamentary services were subject to a process of interviews with Members and their staff. A summary of the feedback has been published, and a summary of responses from PICT and House departments to the feedback will be considered by the Committee on 14 July.

[Helen Goodman]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that answer. I will not detain the House with the six-month tale of trying to get my BlackBerry mended, because it would take too long, but I know that I and many other Members are having considerable difficulties with IT services in the House at the moment. For example, Microsoft 365 seems to require people to have 20:20 vision, and the average age of a Member of this House is 55. It is proving extremely difficult. What can he do to ensure that the service is centred more on Members’ needs and less on strategy?

[Mr Speaker]

I was going to suggest that the hon. Lady seek an Adjournment debate on the subject, until I realised that she has, in fact, just staged one.

[John Thurso]

I have great sympathy for the hon. Lady. The problems I have had with my Android would detain the House for just as long. First, very considerable benefits will accrue from the transfer. Secondly, and most importantly, we have a new structure for the management of IT coming in, following the recommendations of a strategic review of our online services by mySociety. That will result in different organisational and management structures. I believe that many of the problems to which she has alluded, which are shared by many Members, will get us to the place we all want to be more quickly and efficiently.

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

May I suggest to my hon. Friend that hon. Members consider using Google, which is completely free, and Google Docs for saving documents, and then we do not need to spend thousands of pounds on things such as Microsoft 365?

[John Thurso]

I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for his suggestion. The particular difficulties of operating in many locations with different staff and different devices mean that the cloud gives us a significant opportunity to improve service. Incidentally, it also gives us the opportunity to save a considerable amount of money, which can be put into further improving the service—

[Mr Speaker]

I think—sorry, the hon. Gentleman had not quite finished his answer.

[John Thurso]

No, Mr Speaker, I think you were right.

[Mr Speaker]

I hope this is the start of a trend. Mr Barry Sheerman.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

I get quite a good service out of PICT. I had the fortunate experience of walking through PICT’s offices the other day. Why is it that so many men are employed in PICT? There are hardly any women at all. What is going on in recruitment here? Surely we believe that women can do this kind of task in a way that is equal to, if not better than, men.

[John Thurso]

I can only say to the hon. Gentleman that the House Service is committed to diversity in terms of gender and in many other ways. It is led by Mr Speaker and the management. As to PICT itself, I would have to look into the matter and write to him as I do not have the facts to hand.

The Leader of the House was asked—

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[Mr Simon Burns (Chelmsford) (Con)]

6. What assessment he has made of the procedures for the appointment of the next Clerk of the House and Chief Executive; and if he will make a statement.

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)]

The process for appointment of the next Clerk of the House and Chief Executive has included public advertisement and the use of an executive search agency to identify potential candidates, undertake initial interviews, review all applications and draw up a long list of suitable candidates. A short list for interview has been agreed by the selection panel. As the process is not yet concluded, I cannot yet provide the assessment that my right hon. Friend seeks.

[Mr Burns]

I accept that the role of the Clerk of the House is of vital importance to all hon. Members. Given that the world has been trawled for a potential successor, even, for some odd reason, as far as Australia, will my hon. Friend tell me whether the taxpayer will be paying the cost of travel to the UK for interview of any candidates from abroad, and what budget has been set aside to fulfil that?

[John Thurso]

With regard to the first part of the right hon. Gentleman’s question, I can of course confirm that we all recognise the supreme importance of the role of the Clerk and the Chief Executive in our affairs, and I am sure that the panel will be working very diligently—I am serving on that panel—to ensure that the person with the right qualifications is chosen for the job. With regard to the second point, I do not know what the expenses may be for candidates and therefore may I write to my right hon. Friend on that question?

The Leader of the House was asked—

Oral Answers to Questions

Viscount Thurso Excerpts

Thursday 20th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)]

The establishment of a parliamentary commission would be a matter for the two Houses. Should a motion to establish a commission be tabled in this House, the accounting officer is required under Standing Order No. 22C to provide an assessment of the financial implications. If a parliamentary commission were established, the funding and practical arrangements would then fall within the remit of the House of Commons Commission, advised by the Finance and Services Committee and others. Parliamentary commissions are relatively rare, and the implications will depend on the details of any specific proposal.

[Natascha Engel]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his answer. Does he agree that it should be down to the House to decide what the remit and resources of any parliamentary commission or Joint Committee should be, to ensure that it does not cut across the work of departmental Select Committees but instead complements it?

[John Thurso]

The hon. Lady puts her finger on an extremely important point, which is that the merits or otherwise of commissions and Committees are a matter for the House, or for the two Houses in the case of a parliamentary commission. Should a commission or Committee be appointed, it would be for the House authorities, including the House of Commons Commission, to make the arrangements for it to be properly resourced.

[Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

Would it not be sensible if the House of Commons Commission were involved in the preparation of the note to be prepared by the Clerk of the House about the costs of such a parliamentary commission, so that it could give its view on the matter? Is it not the case that the additional net cost to the House of Commons of about £175,000 is pretty much de minimis in our budget of £215 million? After all, spending money on scrutinising the Executive is what the House of Commons is for, and cost would be a poor excuse from the Government not to have a parliamentary commission.

[John Thurso]

I do not quite share the hon. Gentleman’s definition of de minimis. Standing Order No. 22C would take de minimis as below £50,000, and I think that saving, or spending, £175,000 would be above de minimis. However, his point that the resource required would be well within the scope of the resources provided is a good one. As I say, it would be for the House and its relevant Committees to make the necessary decisions, following which the House of Commons Commission would undertake the necessary work on resources.

The Leader of the House was asked—

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[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)]

The latest estimate of the cost of constructing and equipping the education centre is £6.93 million, excluding value added tax but including the usual provision for contingencies.

[Mr Chope]

Will the hon. Gentleman tell me how expenditure of some £7 million on what will be a temporary building can possibly be justified? Would it not be much better to put the education centre into the space that is currently occupied by the loss-making day nursery overlooking Parliament square?

[John Thurso]

The hon. Gentleman and I served together on the Administration Committee during the last Parliament, and I know of his enthusiasm for the education centre. We considered a wide range of options, all of which we have considered again during the current Parliament, and this option provides by far the best value. It allows us to increase the number of children who go through the education centre from 45,000 to 100,000, which is a significant advance.

A teacher who had taken children around the Houses of Parliament said that it had been a

“fantastic experience that allowed children to have firsthand experience of how the Houses of Parliament work. It was great for them to see it as a working building—online it is static and empty. They were very much struck with awe and wonder.”

Engagement with children is the future of our politics.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that it is very important for children from outside London, particularly those from my constituency, to be able to come and see what goes on in Parliament, and engage with the democratic process? Can he tell us when the first sod will be turned, so that we can have the centre as soon as possible?

[John Thurso]

I cannot at this moment give the hon. Lady an exact date, but it is hoped that the centre will be open in 2015, probably just after the election. As for her first point, as one who represents the most northerly constituency on the mainland of the United Kingdom—and long may it remain united—I must say that it was a tremendous pleasure to welcome children from Kinlochbervie and Wick high schools two weeks ago who made two separate visits. I am sure that we wish to continue to do everything possible to enable constituencies such as hers to benefit from these resources.

Oral Answers to Questions

Viscount Thurso Excerpts

Thursday 6th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

The Commission has a policy of continuous improvement, which helps to drive both efficiency and effectiveness. The fundamental principle adopted by the Commission has been that any cost reductions should not adversely affect the ability of the House and its Members to carry out their parliamentary functions. The House is on track to reduce its budget by 17% in real terms between 2010-11 and 2014-15, and this discipline has been a spur to innovation and moving to new and better ways of doing things. In many ways, the House is now more rather than less effective.

[Mr Sheerman]

May I profoundly disagree with the 17% cut? We are sent here to serve our constituents. This cut in budgets means that we are less and less able to do our job properly at every level. We know that, and the staff, whose morale is at rock bottom, know it too. It is about time the House of Commons Commission got the message that something is rotten in the state and that we have to do something about it soon.

[John Thurso]

May I say in all humility to the hon. Gentleman that the facts simply do not bear out his assertions? For example, sickness absence, which in most businesses is an extremely good measure of the morale of the work force, is at its lowest since we began recording in 2008-09. May I also say that the Finance and Services Committee at its meeting this week received the quarterly out-turn for the third quarter, and a number of the major Departments that operate Member services have budget left to spend and are likely not to use their budgets in-year? That is a result of effective delivery of services and there is no absence of money for parliamentary scrutiny.

[Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend accept that the decision of the House to change its sitting hours has had a negative impact on catering, access to the Palace for constituency parties, and the ready availability of meeting rooms for the many groups that seek them?

[John Thurso]

My right hon. Friend makes an extremely valid point. He, as Chair of the Administration Committee, has done a great deal of work with his Committee on this matter to ensure that the services provided are of the highest quality and, wherever possible, open to our constituents as well as to Members.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

2. What steps the Commission is taking to reduce heating bills on the parliamentary estate.

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

This is a timely question, as a campaign has recently been launched to encourage all users of the estate, including hon. Members, to reduce energy use. All new estate projects are assessed for opportunities to improve energy efficiency in the Palace. Improvements are being made to temperature control and the efficiency of heating systems. There has been a successful pilot of roof insulation and a programme to refurbish windows is under way. Thermostatic radiator valves and occupancy sensors that shut down after a set period have been fitted in a number of areas across the estate.

[Mr Hollobone]

We must all put up our hands and admit to our individual responsibility for contributing to the hot air generated in this place, but will the House of Commons Commission undertake a study of the financial savings for each degree that the thermostat was turned down?

[John Thurso]

My hon. Friend makes a very sensible suggestion, which I will certainly take away and find out the answer to, and do my utmost to implement.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

Is it especially expensive to heat the Terrace marquee? I recently received a letter from a constituent about an event that I had agreed to sponsor for the Westminster Education Forum, which showed that it was charging people £45 plus VAT for the privilege of attending an event at this House of Commons. Is that acceptable, and is that a direct consequence of the current efforts to turn this place into a convention centre?

[John Thurso]

The hon. Gentleman asks about the heating in the Terrace marquee. I do not have an answer to hand; if I may, I will write to him with the correct answer.

[Mr Speaker]

James Wharton. Not here. Where is he?

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[Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)]

5. What consideration is being given to a temporary relocation of Parliament to enable refurbishment of the Palace of Westminster.

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

I announced in a written statement on 17 December 2013 that the contract had been awarded for an independent appraisal of the options for restoring and renewing the palace, in co-operation with the House of Lords. A temporary relocation of Parliament is one of the options being analysed. Other options include a phased programme of less disruptive interventions or a partial relocation. No decisions on the matter are expected in this Parliament, and certainly not before the report is received.

[Meg Hillier]

I fear that once again we are kicking an issue into the long grass. Sadly, we have lost the opportunity to relocate to east London now that the Olympic park is soon to reopen. Would not a relocation to somewhere such as, say, Birmingham, in the centre of the country—[Interruption.] It could be Birmingham or any other city that Members may wish to suggest. Would that not only speed up the improvement of this place but modernise ways of working and change the culture of this place once and for all?

[John Thurso]

Confident in the Union of the United Kingdom, I would of course offer Inverness as a place we might all like to go to, which would save the taxpayer a considerable amount in travel expenses. The really important thing is to get this right. The independent options appraisal will ensure that we have a true understanding of the scale of the problem and the different costs of different solutions. I suggest to all Members that we wait to see what the outcome of that is and then make a decision based on fact and best value for the taxpayer.

The Leader of the House was asked—

--- Later in debate ---

[Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)]

8. What assessment he has made of the amount of food waste from catering outlets on the Parliamentary Estate.

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

Food waste from prepared dishes in the House of Commons catering outlets, as measured as a percentage against sales, is 3%. This is well below the national average for the catering industry, which is 5%. The Sustainable Restaurant Association has rated the House of Commons as a good-practice organisation in respect of food waste. We take a variety of measures to monitor and reduce the amount of food waste from catering outlets. There are plans to extend composting of food waste, which is already undertaken in the Palace in relation to other outlets.

[Mr Speaker]

We are now better informed.

[Duncan Hames]

I thank my hon. Friend for that reply and for the progress that is being made. Does he agree that, as staff in the catering service see this challenge day in, day out, it would be wise for the Commission to invite them to make their own suggestions on reducing food waste?

[John Thurso]

It has been my experience that staff suggestions are always worth looking at, but the real challenge is the 21% waste from domestic fridges—that is the real scandal.

[Mr Speaker]

That was a splendidly pithy reply, which allows us briefly to get on to the important matter of vermin infestation.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

9. What recent representations he has received on vermin infestation on the parliamentary estate.

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

Recent representations have been received from hon. Members about mice in Norman Shaw South. Measures taken include sealing gaps and fitting bristle strips to office doors. Leaflets have been distributed to alert occupants to the measures being taken and provide practical advice to alleviate the problem. I encourage hon. Members to follow that advice, which includes not leaving sandwiches on their desks.

[Diana Johnson]

According to recent media reports, mutant super rats are taking over the Commons and it is costing £6,000 per month for vermin control measures on the parliamentary estate. Surely the traditional use of cats would be more effective and cheaper.

[John Thurso]

My sympathies are entirely with the hon. Lady. I have a perfectly vicious cat in Thurso which is keeping the rodent population down. There are serious problems in relation to people who are allergic to cats and the diseases they carry. After extensive research, it is believed that there is no rat problem inside the House of Commons—at least, not of the four-legged variety.

[Mr Speaker]

We are running late, but we must hear from Miss Anne McIntosh.

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

As I am sure you are aware, Mr Speaker, we have been offered a rescue cat or two from Battersea Dogs and Cats Home. I fear I might be allergic to mice and rats—of the two and four-legged variety—so will my hon. Friend consider that very generous offer?

[John Thurso]

I am certain the Commission would want to consider such a generous offer.

Oral Answers to Questions

Viscount Thurso Excerpts

Thursday 19th December 2013 Commons Chamber

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

3. What recent progress has been made on reducing the House’s running costs.

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)]

May I take this opportunity to wish you, Mr Speaker, and all the staff who serve us so well a very merry Christmas?

On Monday the Commission agreed to lay an administration estimate of £201.3 million for 2014-15. The estimate originally agreed for 2010-11 was £231 million. After adjustments for transfers and so forth, that is equivalent to a 17% reduction in real terms. Savings of £15.3 million are being delivered this year and next through a number of initiatives.

[Jeremy Lefroy]

Happy Christmas, Mr Speaker, and I thank the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso) for the work that the House of Commons Commission is doing in rightly reducing costs. The other side of costs are benefits. Has the Commission analysed the benefits of the House of Commons? There are not only tangible benefits that additional visitors and tourism bring to the local and London-wide economy, but intangible benefits such as education for our school children and showing the values of a parliamentary democracy to the world.

[John Thurso]

The hon. Gentleman makes an extremely valid point about the contribution that the House’s activities make to the wider community in which we sit. We have not undertaken such work, but I will take his suggestion away and look at it in the new year.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

Every year, the House of Commons spends tens of millions of pounds on making sure that the building literally does not fall down. Will the Commission set out the next steps for the long-term future of the building?

[John Thurso]

As I am sure the hon. Gentleman will have seen, the first ever written statement from the representative of the Commission was made on Tuesday last, announcing the contract for an outside company to consider options for the future of the building. It would be preferable to wait until those conclusions, delivered professionally, allow us to make a proper judgment.

[Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that there will be a beneficial impact on the costs of running the House if we could so arrange our affairs that there was a greater intensive use of the facilities by both Members and staff?

[John Thurso]

I am very grateful to my right hon. Friend, who chairs the Administration Committee so ably. He makes a very valid point.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

9. I regret to say to the hon. Gentleman that I have lost all confidence in the House of Commons Commission. I thought the Commission’s job was to allow and facilitate Members in this House to do their job properly and serve their constituents efficiently. We do not expect the House of Commons Commission to be incompetent bean counters. I find every day that my job of serving my constituents in this place gets harder and harder due to the incompetence of the House of Commons Commission. I would like them all to resign and for commissioners to be elected by this House, so they can facilitate our doing a job for the people we represent.

[John Thurso]

May I wish the hon. Gentleman a very merry Christmas and a happy and prosperous new year? I can speak only for myself, but I am a doctor of business administration, a fellow of the Institute of Hospitality, a fellow of the Tourism Society and have been a fellow of the Institute of Directors. I therefore regard myself as having some qualifications that I can bring to the task in hand. My fellow commissioners have a wide range of experience across many disciplines. I have to say, observing the management of this House, that a tough challenge is being met with professionalism and resolve by the team. The Commission does, in my humble judgment, an outstanding job in overseeing it.

[Mr Speaker]

We all attach almost as much weight to the views of the hon. Gentleman as does the hon. Gentleman.

[Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)]

4. What recent consideration he has given to making Factiva news services available to hon. Members and their staff.

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

The position has not changed since the answer given to the hon. Gentleman on 7 November. The current online news service will be reassessed in 2015, when a decision is required on whether to extend the current contract for a further two years, or to retender the service.

[Michael Fabricant]

May I wish you, Mr Speaker, and the Clerks a happy Christmas?

I was really excited by the answer given to me on 7 November, saying that I should

“be aware that some members of the Library have individual subscriptions”—[Official Report, 7 November 2013; Vol. 570, c. 413.]

to Factiva, which is a far better service than Nexis, and that they would therefore be able to help me. Well, it so happened that I actually wanted to get something from The Times, so I phoned up the Library and they said, “Oh no, we can’t forward you anything from it—it breaks the contract.” I asked, “Well, could you scan it in?” “Oh no, we can’t do that—it’ll break the contract.” In the end I said, “Well, go to get the ruddy newspaper, photocopy it and send it through the internal post,” which they did. I am afraid that, for the first time in my life, I have to agree with the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman).

[Mr Speaker]

Was there any possibility that concealed therein was a question?

[John Thurso]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for notice of his likely supplementary, which he answers for me. The Library has a small number of individual subscriptions for The Times online so that it can assist Members in tracing articles. I appreciate the hon. Member’s sense of frustration and I have asked a member of the Library staff to contact him to explore how the service might be improved without infringing the House’s legal and contractual obligations.

The Leader of the House was asked—

--- Later in debate ---

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)]

The announcement made on 27 November that you, Mr Speaker, intended to set up the Speaker’s Commission on Digital Democracy is entirely in keeping with the House of Commons Commission’s objective of encouraging public participation in the parliamentary process. The Speaker’s Commission on Digital Democracy will encourage involvement by all.

[Pauline Latham]

What steps will be taken by the House of Commons Commission to ensure that the Speaker’s Commission does not overlap with the work of the outreach service and the remits of the Procedure Committee, the Select Committee on Political and Constitutional Reform and the Administration Committee?

[John Thurso]

All those very important issues will indeed be covered by the Committees of the House and I fully anticipate that at its inaugural meeting the Speaker’s Commission would look at exactly how best to maximise the work of all the bodies the hon. Lady has mentioned. We see it as being entirely complementary and not in competition.

[Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)]

I was delighted to be asked by you, Mr Speaker, to serve on the Speaker’s Commission on Digital Democracy, which will, we hope, meet for the first time in January. I urge hon. Members to contact us with any of their thoughts. In the early days, we are planning to do some crowd-sourcing of what we should consider and I ask the hon. Gentleman to let us know any thoughts he has. Will he be willing to meet us in the new year?

[John Thurso]

I am ready to be of service to the hon. Lady at any time.

Oral Answers to Questions

Viscount Thurso Excerpts

Thursday 12th September 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

2. What progress has been made in encouraging the recycling of plastics and cartons on the parliamentary estate.

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)]

At present, separate recycling facilities are provided for plastic, glass, cans and paper. A new system is being trialled in Portcullis House to increase the estate’s recycling rate. Office bins will be used for mixed, dry recyclables only, including paper, cans, plastic and juice cartons. Food and non-recyclable waste will be collected in bins at tea points and in kitchen areas. By introducing that scheme, we aim to maximise the amount of plastics and other items that are recycled. We anticipate an increase from the current 58% towards our target of 75%.

[Mr Hollobone]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his endeavours in this regard. It is important that the Commons estate leads by example on recycling. Is he satisfied that waste from individual offices is separated properly into the different waste streams?

[John Thurso]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that question. The short answer is that I am never satisfied and we can do a great deal more. I think that our efforts to collect waste centrally and separate it into the different recycling streams will make quite a difference. I look forward to being able to report improvements in the future.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

I welcome any improvements in recycling, as I am sure does everybody else. Will the hon. Gentleman consider the use of plastic by the building as a whole? We have removed much of it from the catering department, but not all of it. However, Members’ offices are still supplied with plastic envelopes that are not recyclable or biodegradable. I could be wrong about that, but I believe it to be the case. Will he ensure that we use only paper and cardboard, which are completely recyclable?

[John Thurso]

The hon. Gentleman makes an extremely good point. Some of the matters that he has raised are outwith our control, but we seek to pursue the strategy that he advocates wherever it is within our control.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Recycling targets are set for households, councils and manufacturing businesses. Is the hon. Gentleman prepared to set targets for the House of Commons Commission so that it is trying to achieve the sorts of targets that we try to achieve at home?

[John Thurso]

I am delighted to confirm that we have a target. The House has a target to reduce by 75% the waste that is generated by weight by 2020-21, based on a 2008-09 baseline. Our recycling rate for the 12-month period ending 31 August was, as I have just said, 58.4%. I hope that the measures we are taking will get us far closer to our target.

The Leader of the House was asked—

--- Later in debate ---

[Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con)]

4. What progress has been made on the restoration and renewal of the Palace of Westminster; and if he will make a statement.

[John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross)]

Following consideration of the study report on the condition of the fabric of the Palace, the House of Commons Commission and the House of Lords House Committee agreed, in October last year, to commission a comprehensive independent cost appraisal of a range of options for the restoration and renewal of the Palace of Westminster. The opportunity to prepare the independent options appraisal has been advertised, and six interested bidders who met the brief qualification requirements have been invited to submit a proposal. The deadline for submissions is 11 October. It is anticipated that the successful tenderer will begin work in January 2014.

[Pauline Latham]

My concern is that if we decant from this place for five years, which has been rumoured, new Members in 2015 might never serve in this Chamber. That would be detrimental to their experience of being in Parliament, if they serve only one term. Is it possible to consider moving us into the House of Lords, with the Lords moving out for the period and us then moving back in?

[John Thurso]

I understand that there is precedent for that. The purpose of the independent options appraisal is to consider all those points. The critical point is that no decision will be possible until the next Parliament, so no decision will be taken on whatever option may be thought best until sometime in the next Parliament. It will be the Parliament after that before the decision is implemented. The key factor is that all Members of both Houses want to achieve the best value for money for the taxpayer, who will ultimately be paying for this. That should be the guiding principle, provided we can work appropriately.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

Since £30 million a year is spent on both Houses for essential maintenance, and recognising the state of the building as described in the report last year—widespread defective mechanical and electrical services, fire risk, asbestos and so on—should we not reach a decision more quickly on the rebuilding of the Palace, and not leave it in a state where each year we are spending money when, at the end of it all, rebuilding will have to take place?

[John Thurso]

The hon. Gentleman raises an extremely good point—one that has been considered in the essential maintenance work that is going on. Clearly, the mechanical and electrical services in particular have to be brought up to a safe and workable standard so that we can occupy the building. I believe that time and money spent now in getting a really thorough appraisal will produce the best value result overall, but we have to keep spending money to ensure that the building is safe and proper to use.

The Leader of the House was asked—