Oral Answers to Questions

Stephen Timms Excerpts

Monday 24th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I have two points for the hon. Lady. First, I have just said that all of us have at some point met representatives of the Trussell Trust. Secondly, I absolutely think that those involved in food banks and in supporting those who are in difficulty or in need are very valuable members of the community, and I celebrate the work they do. I believe that it is the right thing for them to do. I think that all those involved in food banks are decent people trying to do a decent bit of work for those in need of help, and we support that in general terms as constituency MPs. However, I must say that the over-politicisation of this issue has done no help at all, as some leaders of food banks have attested over the past week.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

The Trussell Trust has been exposing the real impact of Ministers’ policies, so out of pique they have refused to meet the trust’s representatives since last summer. Now that they have been overruled by the Prime Minister, who met trust representatives last week, will DWP Ministers at last step up to their responsibilities? Was not the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster absolutely right when he said last week that

“there shouldn’t be people living with nothing, in destitution, in a country which is as prosperous as this”?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I have two points for the right hon. Gentleman. First, he, his party and others have deliberately set out to politicise the issue of food banks—[Interruption.] Well, those are not my words. The person who runs the Oxford food bank has said:

“I think this whole debate has become hopelessly politicised.”

Food banks do a good service, but they have been much in the news. People know they are free. They know about them and they will ask social workers to refer them. It would be wrong to pretend that the mass of publicity has not also been a driver in their increased use. The Opposition, notwithstanding the fact that under them the number of food banks increased tenfold, are trying to make a political issue out of this. They have done no service to those who need help and support and no service to those who run the food banks.

Job Insecurity

Stephen Timms Excerpts

Wednesday 5th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Vince Cable]

I am going to come on to underemployment and part-time employment shortly, because it is a legitimate concern. Obviously, there are people who took part-time jobs in the depth of the recession who now want full-time work—of course that is true. What the hon. Gentleman might not be aware of is that in the past year the number of people in part-time employment has actually fallen in absolute terms by 7,000, and that the number of people in full-time employment has risen by 475,000. There was an issue relating to part-time jobs in the depth of the recession. It was understandable that people took part-time jobs in a very difficult situation, but over the last year the position has changed dramatically. Building an argument around part-time employment is now of historic interest, not contemporary interest.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

It is not an historic concern. The number of people who are working part time because they cannot find full-time work is still more than 1.4 million. It has never been that high before. It is a current problem, which the Secretary of State should be concerned about.

[Vince Cable]

It is a current problem, but it is a declining problem. The trend over the past year is striking: the new jobs being created are full-time jobs and part-time employment is declining. Of course, there are a lot of people who took part-time employment under very difficult conditions who now want full-time work. If the recovery is sustained, as it must be, then this problem will resolve itself, but I accept that there are a lot of people in unsatisfactory employment situations.

--- Later in debate ---

[Vince Cable]

I am surprised at that. I am not an expert on employment law, but I thought that protection from dismissal for trade union activities was a fully protected employment right. If the story is as has just been described, I would have thought the person concerned would have a good case to support his job.

Let me deal with the areas where the Opposition spokesperson was critical. He referred to the fact that we have quite deliberately tried to reduce the scope of employment tribunals, both by extending the qualifying period from one to two years and through the fee system, albeit with remission in respect of people on low incomes, as I think he would acknowledge. That was done for a specific reason. We are trying to ensure that difficult cases are moved from a legal, court framework to a framework of conciliation through ACAS. Lest anyone imagine that ACAS is some right-wing, business-friendly organisation that is against employees, let me point out—I do not know whether this has been picked up by the Opposition—that I recently appointed Brendan Barber as its head, so those whose employment disputes are referred to it can be pretty confident that they will be dealt with properly. It is surely right and sensible for small and medium-sized companies in particular not to tie up a lot of time and money in litigious processes when their disputes can be dealt with much better through conciliation.

The motion also refers to the dilution, as it has been described, of health and safety standards, although the hon. Member for Streatham did not refer to that in his speech. I do not know whether he has read the Löfstedt report, but it makes the position very clear. Essentially, what we have suggested is that where there is high-risk employment—and there is a great deal of it in agriculture, construction and manufacturing—the inspection regime should remain intact, but where there is found to be a low risk and that finding is evidence-based, the level of inspections should be reduced. No attempt is being made to undermine the safety regime applying to dangerous occupations.

It is worth bearing it in mind that, under the present Government, as under the last, British safety records are exemplary. According to our most recent survey, there were 148 fatalities last year. That is 148 too many, but the figure is comparable to the figure for the best previous year, 2009-2010, and significantly better than the figures in any other previous years. It means that we have a better health and safety record than almost any other country, including Germany, and that we are three times safer than France. Members should try to remember that important context before making throwaway references to diluting health and safety.

[Stephen Timms]

This is not a throwaway reference. I wonder whether the Secretary of State has seen the interview with Professor Löfstedt, whom he mentioned earlier. In that interview, which was published last month, the professor mentioned some of the steps the Government have taken on, for example, civil liability. He said:

“It’s very unfortunate; it’s more or less ideology. I have been trying to promote evidence based policy making and this does not help”.

That is what Professor Löfstedt is now saying about what the Government are doing.

[Vince Cable]

My impression is that the policy we have been pursuing is very much evidence-based, and the examples I have given on inspections are in precisely that category. However, my colleagues from the Department for Work and Pensions know much more about this aspect of the subject than I do, and no doubt they will respond to the right hon. Gentleman’s point.

Finally, let me deal with the one issue on which the hon. Member for Streatham spent quite a lot of time and with which he had a certain amount of fun. I refer to the “shares for rights” scheme. Of course, it is possible to develop a critique of that scheme, but what I find amusing is that at least three totally separate and conflicting arguments have been advanced against it. The first is that downtrodden workers will be stripped of their employment rights. When the scheme was being dealt with in Parliament, we tried to ensure that it would be entirely voluntary, and indeed we responded to proposals from the Opposition in order to entrench that.

Another line of criticism has nothing to do with downtrodden workers, but is all about highly paid executives carrying out a tax scam. That may be true. However, a third criticism—which we heard from Back Benchers and which is, at least currently, supported by the facts—was that neither of those things are happening, because not many people are taking up the scheme. If the Opposition are going to launch a full-frontal attack on the proposals, they should work out which of those three arguments they believe in.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

We have had an excellent debate. When the current Government were elected, we were promised that new policies would lead to

“steady growth and falling unemployment”.

Unfortunately, however, they did not. For three years, there was hardly any growth and unemployment stayed high. Despite all the benefit cuts, over this Parliament the Government will spend £15 billion more on social security and tax credits than they said they would just after the election. As a result, more young people have been out of work for over a year than at any time for 20 years. We urgently need to bring those young people, at the start of what should be their working lives, back into the labour market. In addition, more over-25s have been out of work for over two years than at any time since 1997.

After a long delay, jobs are finally being created, but the priority now is to bring back into the labour market those who have been locked out of it for much too long. That is the damaging legacy of three years without growth, and it needs tackling urgently, otherwise we will face a whole generation of lost economic potential.

[Andrew Percy]

On the subject of legacy and long-term youth unemployment, does the right hon. Gentleman regret the previous Government’s legacy? Under them, the gap between the best-performing and worst-performing schools widened, so we now have a group of young people relatively far less well educated than many of their peers.

[Stephen Timms]

What I am worried about is the apparent collapse of careers advice in schools, with more and more employers saying to us that young people are not getting the advice they need to plan for future employment. I am extremely worried about that.

Despite this legacy, our proposed job guarantee will deliver, unlike the Work programme, which was rightly described by the Chancellor in last summer’s spending review statement as “underperforming”, and the Youth Contract, whose wage incentives have proved a hopeless damp squib. The Secretary of State was right at the outset of the debate to commend the record on employment support in Wales, where the Jobs Growth Wales programme, reflecting our job guarantee, has done a great deal better.

This debate has focused on those in work. For the first time, the majority of people living in poverty are in households where somebody is in work, as was highlighted by my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies). A staggering number of people in work are resorting to food banks, in Wales and elsewhere, so I welcome the Prime Minister’s agreement to meet representatives from the Trussell Trust, which co-ordinates food banks, next week, overruling the childish refusal to do so by DWP Ministers over the last several months.

Month after month, it is the same. Last month, inflation was more than 2% and pay rises were below 1%. That is what people are experiencing. For the first time—we had an exchange about this earlier—over 1.4 million people are working part-time because they cannot find a full-time job. My hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) reminded us that the House of Commons Library calculated that the average household was more than £1,600 worse off than at the time of the last election.

The hon. Member for Ipswich (Ben Gummer), whom I am glad is back in the Chamber, made a thoughtful speech essentially arguing that there was nothing new about these problems. He should look at the quarterly Asda “Mumdex” briefing, which I think has been sent to all of us:

“Last year, we saw Mums cutting back on luxuries like holidays, gadgets and meals out. Now families are struggling to afford basics like heating and petrol.”

The intensity of the problem is new. YouGov found last year that the number of people feeling insecure at work had almost doubled since the election—6.5 million then, 12 million now—and the hon. Member for Selby and Ainsty (Nigel Adams) was right to highlight the case of job insecurity at a power plant in his constituency. That kind of problem is widespread.

Our motion refers to health and safety changes. I had an exchange with the Secretary of State about this earlier, but I want to make a bit more of the point. This year marks the 40th anniversary of Labour’s Health and Safety at Work, etc. Act 1974. The disability benefits Minister, the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning), rightly told me in a written answer last month:

“Workplace health and safety has made an important contribution to vastly reducing the numbers of people killed, injured or made unwell by their work in the last 40 years.”—[Official Report, 30 January 2014; Vol. 574, c. 669W.]

That is as a consequence of our legislation.

The Secretary of State reminded us that Ministers commissioned Professor Ragnar Löfstedt of King’s College London to review health and safety legislation. Some people think it should be dramatically cut back, but not the Secretary of State, and not Professor Löfstedt either. He wrote:

“I have concluded that, in general, there is no case for radically altering current health and safety legislation…There is a view across the board that the existing regulatory requirements are broadly right”.

Ministers said in response that they supported the recommendations of the review, but what they are doing is different. They are trying to shift the balance, even though they have been unable to find evidence to support them. I take the Secretary of State’s point—he is not responsible for this—but in an interview last month Professor Löfstedt described what is happening as ideology in place of evidence-based policy, and safety at work is at risk as a result. I want to highlight in particular the Government’s removal of civil liability for employers breaching health and safety law in the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act 2013, which Professor Löfstedt picked out in his report one year afterwards. Given all this, there is now growing concern that health and safety is being put at risk.

My hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty) highlighted employment rights and the case of INEOS in his constituency. The qualification period for protection against unfair dismissal has been doubled, from one year to two, and fees introduced for employment tribunals. The Government went so far as to consult on the proposal for no-fault dismissal made by Mr Adrian Beecroft in his infamous report. If that had been implemented, it would have allowed employers to fire people at will.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna) pointed out at the start of the debate, the minimum wage has fallen by 5% in real terms since the election. The Chancellor has hinted that he plans to do something about that for next year—better late than never; let us hope he delivers—but he should look at enforcement as well. An estimated 300,000 people are paid less than the minimum wage, but there have been just two prosecutions in four years. The Secretary of State said that enforcement had been sorted out, but where is the evidence? Since 2010, Ministers have announced three times that they will name and shame firms that flout the national minimum wage, but so far nobody has been named or shamed. We need much more effective enforcement, including by giving powers to local authorities.

My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) highlighted the explosion in zero-hours contracts. The Resolution Foundation has found that average pay on them is 40% less than on regular contracts. My hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Jim Sheridan) gave us a graphic example from his constituency of the reality of being on such a contract. We need a serious effort from Government to promote the living wage. My hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown) argued for “make work pay” contracts, whereby firms signing up to the living wage under our proposal in the first year of the next Parliament would get a tax rebate in that year of up to £1,000 for every low-paid worker who gets a pay rise, the Exchequer cost being entirely covered by increased tax and national insurance revenue.

Step by step, we are setting out how we will deal with the problems this Government’s policies will leave behind— growing insecurity and a big squeeze on family incomes in the middle and elsewhere. What we are proposing is practical, effective action to tackle job insecurity, make workplaces safer, improve pay, particularly for the low paid, and make the cost of living more manageable. We want to build a one nation economy, and the sooner the better.

Benefit Entitlement (Restriction) Bill

Stephen Timms Excerpts

Friday 17th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

The Bill is, of course, directly incompatible with our membership of the European Union. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear!”] The hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) proposes that European Union citizens who are working legally in the UK should not be entitled, for example, to help with their housing costs, which UK citizens are entitled to. That direct discrimination against EU citizens is clearly incompatible with our obligations as a member state—I noted the enthusiasm for that proposition on the Conservative Benches.

One puzzling aspect of the Bill is that under its terms, contrary to what the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) said, people from outside Europe would continue to receive the help that citizens of the European Union would be prevented from receiving. He said that he wanted anyone who is not a UK citizen to be denied access to benefits, and I think he is under the impression that that is what the Bill would do. In fact, it would have that effect only on EU citizens, not on citizens from countries elsewhere in the world.

Two million citizens of other European countries are living in the UK. Many will have lived in the UK for a long time, and some will be in receipt of housing benefit or council tax benefit, alongside other UK residents whose circumstances are similar. Under clause 2 they would suddenly stop receiving that help. Some will be in receipt of other non-contributory benefits such as pension credit, so we are talking about some pensioners being affected, perhaps after a lifetime of working in the UK. Some are in receipt of child benefit, which is not insurance based, or tax credits, but under clause 4 they would suddenly lose them. European Union citizens would suddenly be disadvantaged not only relative to UK citizens, but also relative to citizens of non-European countries. The hon. Gentleman has told the House that that is not his intention, but that is the effect of the Bill he supports.

[Mr Chope]

If, as the right hon. Gentleman suggested, a citizen of another country has been in the United Kingdom for a lifetime of work, they would be able to qualify for British nationality if they have been resident here for more than five years.

[Stephen Timms]

They may be entitled to do that, but many do not. Is it not the case that London has one of the largest French populations in the world? I think only two or three cities in France have more French citizens living in them than London does. The hon. Gentleman may feel that they should all apply for UK citizenship, but that seems to me an unreasonable demand.

[Philip Davies]

The right hon. Gentleman seems already to have started the gymnastics as to why he is against the Bill. Is he saying that if the same restrictions that the Bill places on people from within the EU were imposed on people from outside the EU, he would support it on the basis that it would be consistent? Is that what he is saying, or is he just trying to give a bogus reason for why he is against the Bill?

[Stephen Timms]

I am simply seeking to assist Conservative Members who—clearly, in the hon. Gentleman’s case—do not understand the effect of the Bill. He said that he wanted benefits to be taken away from anyone who is not a UK citizen, but that would not be the effect of the Bill. I am simply seeking to be helpful, as I always am, to him and other hon. Members, and to explain the effects of the Bill they are supporting.

It would be interesting to know whether the hon. Member for Christchurch has made an assessment of the Bill’s impact on the large number of UK citizens living elsewhere in Europe, if such a policy were adopted in other member states. There are 1 million UK citizens living elsewhere in the European Union, and if other countries adopted the policy set out in the Bill, many would find themselves much worse off. Some pensioners in other European countries would find their pensions drastically reduced, and I wonder what the impact on the Exchequer would be if large numbers of retired Britons, who currently depend on health services in other European Union member states, suddenly returned to the UK and became dependent on the national health service.

There are, of course, perfectly justified reasons for concern about how the benefits system works in respect of European countries. We certainly agree that the Government should act now to deal with the exploitation of migrant workers from the EU and provide apprenticeships and training for unemployed young people targeted specifically at sectors recruiting from abroad. It is also perfectly appropriate to make sensible changes to the rules for jobseeker’s allowance, so that it is clear that people should not simply claim benefits on arrival, but contribute first. We also support reforms at EU level so that family benefits, such as child tax credit and child benefit, are not sent abroad.

In our view, there should also be action outside the benefits system. We have argued that fines for breaching the minimum wage regulations should be doubled. Local authorities should be allowed to take enforcement action over the minimum wage. I hope we can debate that in our deliberations on the Employment Opportunities Bill, which appears in the name of the hon. Member for Christchurch further down the Order Paper. The value of the minimum wage has fallen relative to other incomes since the general election, and it is welcome that the Chancellor has indicated his change of heart and is speaking now about significantly raising it. Furthermore, the rules for gangmasters should be strengthened, and the Gangmasters Licensing Authority should have its remit extended to sectors where there is currently abuse. Steps should be taken to stop the exploitation of migrant workers by rogue landlords. It should be illegal to cram migrants into grossly unsuitable accommodation, such as garages, sheds, barns and overcrowded mobile homes.

The benefits system needs to be fair, and to be seen to be fair. Over many decades, people have come from European countries to Britain and made a huge contribution to our economy and our society. There are quite a number of EU citizens working here in the Palace of Westminster, and it would be absolutely wrong suddenly to place them at a drastic disadvantage, relative to other workers, whether UK citizens or citizens of non-European countries, such as China and India, who would not be affected by the Bill. For all those reasons, we firmly oppose the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mike Penning]

Of course, Madam Deputy Speaker. I shall try to speak up, too, so that Hansard can get every last nuance of what I say.

As I was saying, I was asked the same question when I became a Minister some three and a half months ago. That question is asked. I have officials of different nationalities who worked in Jobcentre Plus, but the difference is that it does not tie up directly with the Home Office systems at the moment. It will, however, when the excellent universal credit system comes into force. [Interruption.] I hear derogatory comments from a sedentary position coming from the Opposition side, so let me ask them whether they are going to scrap universal credit when they come into power—should this country be silly enough to allow a Labour Government back in again.

[Stephen Timms]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. However tempted the right hon. Gentleman might be to respond, we are not discussing universal credit today. I am happy for him to speak from the Dispatch Box, but he should not take us off the subject of this Bill. I expect the House to return to it.

[Stephen Timms]

I am grateful to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I have to respond to the Minister. We have, of course, always supported the principle of universal credit; it is a shame that the Government have made such a terrible mess of implementing it.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. That is enough. We are not debating universal credit. I require the Minister to speak only to the Bill and to ensure that the Government’s view of it is clearly heard, before we return to the promoter for his final comments.

Oral Answers to Questions

Stephen Timms Excerpts

Monday 13th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Esther McVey]

That is not the case. We want to look at the numbers. If we look at the spend on housing benefit, we see that it doubled under Labour from £12 billion to £24 billion. What we have got to do is look in the round at those people who are in overcrowded housing and those on waiting lists as well as those who have got houses that are bigger than they necessarily need and yet the taxpayer is funding all of it. The figures are right: the cost doubled under Labour’s watch.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

What plans does the Minister have to tackle the new record level of people wanting full-time work but only able to get part-time work? That went up in the most recent statistics to 1.47 million. It is the highest level it has ever been. What is the Minister going to do about it?

[Esther McVey]

Actually, in the last three months the vast majority of people who got jobs were getting not only full-time jobs but also permanent full-time jobs, and three out of every four jobs have been full-time.

Food Banks

Stephen Timms Excerpts

Wednesday 18th December 2013 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Mosley]

I shall come on to that point.

The Department for Work and Pensions is the front-line organisation dealing with people in that position and that is why I support wholeheartedly the Government’s decision to allow jobcentres to advertise and refer people to their local food bank. That is also why it was such a big mistake for the previous Government to ban jobcentres from referring people, depriving people of the information they needed to get food at times of emergency.

Let us make no mistake about it: food banks were not created by, for or because of this Government. They predate the Government, they predate recent welfare changes and they reflect deep long-term problems with our benefits system. As the majority of people who need food bank assistance are those who face changes to benefits, the clear long-term solution is a more joined-up benefits system. The solutions proposed by the Opposition in their motion do not tackle the root cause of the problem. They are short-term sticking plasters that merely cover up the cracks in the welfare system. We need a long-term solution to fix the problem once and for all.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman can help us with a puzzle. When the Government took office, Ministers perfectly properly made a lot of the announcement that in the future jobcentres would be able to refer people to food banks. However, that appears now to have changed. I received a written answer from the former Minister, the hon. Member for Fareham (Mr Hoban), which states:

“Jobcentre Plus …does not refer people to food banks or issue vouchers.”—[Official Report, 4 September 2013; Vol. 567, c. 373W.]

Can the hon. Member for City of Chester (Stephen Mosley) help us to understand why there has been that change?

[Stephen Mosley]

Jobcentres offer signposting and advice and point people in the right direction. Unlike Opposition Members, I think that the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions knows what the problem is. That is why he is pushing so hard for universal credit, which will transform welfare, solving many of the issues that still haunt our welfare system and that we have heard about today.

As well as the long-term solution of universal credit, there are some short-term actions that we can take. First, we need to find out more about food banks and I back the call from the Trussell Trust and my hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet (Laura Sandys) for an inquiry into their use. We need a clear picture of the role and extent of the banks and we need to know who uses them and why. Then we can have a debate based on the facts. Otherwise, this important debate will always run the risk of being hijacked by politicians hoping to score cheap political points, which does absolutely nothing to help those in need. The university of Warwick has produced a report for DEFRA on household food security and the provision of food aid. I hope that it will be forthcoming.

Secondly, I am a passionate believer in school meals. In my constituency I have seen the real difference that providing a hot, nutritious meal every day can make for children. I therefore congratulate the Government on introducing free school meals for infant pupils. By opening up free school meals to all children, we can put nutrition first.

Finally, we need to give food banks the support they need. Too often people suggest that we should be ashamed of food banks, but I disagree. Food banks play a key role in a caring society. Dozens of people in my constituency volunteer at the Wesley Methodist church and hundreds, if not thousands, donate food. I am proud that so many Chester residents want to help their neighbours and local communities when they are in need. I offer my heartfelt thanks to everyone who helps the West Cheshire food bank. They are doing a truly fantastic job.

Oral Answers to Questions

Stephen Timms Excerpts

Monday 18th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Esther McVey]

The future jobs fund cost £6,500 per outcome, whereas our work experience outcomes cost £325, which is a 20th of the price for exactly the same outcomes. As always, the coalition Government are delivering value for money.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

After more than two years of the Work programme and 18 months of the embarrassing flop of Youth Contract wage incentives, youth unemployment is still nearly 1 million, higher than it was at the general election and higher than when the Work programme began. That is terrible not only for young people, but for the future of the economy. When will Ministers finally get serious about that and back a proper youth jobs guarantee?

[Esther McVey]

Obviously the Opposition like to rewrite history. The 40% increase in youth unemployment that we saw over their years in office was shocking, particularly given that it was during a boom period. We are dealing with the issue most practically. The Youth Contract has been, is and will be a huge success, with wage contracts increasing from a slow start of 1,000 a month to 4,000-plus a month.

Oral Answers to Questions

Stephen Timms Excerpts

Monday 14th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Esther McVey]

For the first time in history, we are dealing with the people the hon. Lady—the Chair of the Select Committee on Work and Pensions—is talking about. Labour Members shake their heads, but I am afraid that they abandoned those 1.4 million people; we are supporting them. Of those on the Work programme, more than 380,000 are in work, and 168,000 have found lasting work. Ninety per cent. of those have been in employment for nine months or more. We are working on and dealing with that matter, but Labour abandoned it.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

I welcome the Minister to her new brief, and the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning), to his.

The invitation to tender for the Work programme said that, if there was no programme at all, 15% of people on employment and support allowance, to whom my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg) has just referred, would be in a sustained job outcome within two years. With the Work programme, the number has been about one third of that. Surely that underperformance is unacceptable.

[Esther McVey]

That is not true at all. We have reached out and supported people who were never supported under the Labour Government. Equally, I would like to separate those on JSA, who have exceeded targets, and those on ESA who must move closer to the workplace, which is what we are statutorily obliged to do, but not to put them in a job. We are doing that. Because of that, we are looking at the programme as a whole and putting further support in for those people. It is successful and, as I have said, Labour failed to do it.

[Stephen Timms]

The Minister should ask her civil servants about pathways to work.

In his spending review on 26 June, the Chancellor of the Exchequer called on the Secretary of State to make a hard-headed assessment of underperforming programmes in his Department. What progress is there with the hard-headed assessment of the Work programme?

[Esther McVey]

The Work programme is not an underperforming programme: 60% of people are off benefits. We continue to modify and improve it, which is only right. We have set up a best practice committee so that people can get even better. There is no underperformance. We are proud of the record. I will tell the right hon. Gentleman one thing: those people who have got jobs, whom he dismisses so discourteously, are very proud of what we have done.

Work Programme

Stephen Timms Excerpts

Thursday 10th October 2013 Westminster Hall

[Guto Bebb]

That is a fair point. When people try to score political points on this issue, it is worth bearing in mind that the performance of the previous programmes was not as good as what we are seeing under the Work programme.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

I will have something to say about the performance of previous programmes if I catch you eye later, Mr Walker. However, I want to pick the hon. Gentleman up on his point, which I agree with, about the programme’s performance at the beginning being particularly disappointing. With the benefit of hindsight, would he agree that the cliff-edge approach of shutting down the previous programme and immediately trying to set up the Work programme—inevitably, it took many providers quite a long time to get going—was not a good way to go about things?

[Guto Bebb]

In view of the fact that we were looking to shake up the way we were supporting people into work, I am not sure there was any other way around that. The summary to the Select Committee report highlights the fact that it was an achievement on the part of the Department to deliver the Work programme so soon after the announcement in Parliament and after the legislation was passed. Despite the circumstances, the programme was delivered.

The key problem with the statistics that people originally looked at is that there is a natural delay in the system before we can talk of a positive outcome in terms of generating a job for somebody. That delay has allowed the statistics to be used to try to make a political point about the programme. I know for a fact that the trade body representing Work programme providers has been particularly annoyed and upset at the way in which some of the statistics that have been released, which often have not indicated the time lag in the programme’s performance, have been used to try to make a point about the way the programme is performing.

Another interesting, key point highlighted in the report’s summary is about the importance of the relationship between Work programme providers and jobcentres. That relationship is highlighted as a weakness of the programme, but I have to say—I can speak only from personal experience in the area I represent—that one of the key factors behind the success of the Work programme in north Wales has been the positive relationship between jobcentres and Work programme providers. A key recommendation in the report is that different areas of the country, with different providers, should learn from each other. If providers in other parts of the country are having difficulties co-operating with their local jobcentres, and they want to learn some lessons, they are more than welcome to come to north Wales, where the relationship is working particularly well. That is not to say that the figures in north Wales are particularly good, but I will come to that, because there are problems facing the programme in different parts of the country that are not necessarily of the programme’s making. That is something I need to put on record.

Another point I want briefly to touch on is whether the Work programme can support all user groups. One of the programme’s crucial successes is in supporting young people back into employment. We have a youth unemployment problem, although it is not as bad as in some other European countries, and we should be thankful for that. There is no doubt that the youth contract and the financial support we offer employers to engage with young people looking for a job who are on the Work programme have been a success.

The report also highlights the fact that there is sometimes a lack of publicity, and of appreciation of what is happening and the support available to employers who want to recruit young people and to understand the Work programme. There is an obligation on Members of Parliament to highlight the support that is available. It does not matter what political party a Member represents; they will obviously prefer the Work programme to be a success. I wrote to hundreds of businesses in my constituency about the Youth Contract, highlighting the financial support available for young people on the Work programme who were job-ready, and willing and able to work, and explaining that if there were opportunities in those businesses the Work programme providers were ready and willing to help. I am glad to say that the initiative resulted in at least 20 young people securing jobs; I know that because employers have contacted me. That might be a small contribution, but as well as highlighting failures politicians have an obligation, where there is lack of publicity or understanding, to let employers know what support is available; because they are the ones who create jobs.

We have identified those under 24 as needing particular support, because of the challenges that they face in getting access to work. As everyone knows, it is easier to get into a job from a job. A young person without experience on their CV needs support to get a position. The Youth Contract has been a significant benefit to many young people, certainly in my part of the world, but perhaps there is a need to extend such support to other hard-to-reach groups. I have been keen to support young people looking for jobs in my constituency, but I am also aware that the average age of my constituents is among the highest in any constituency in the country, and certainly in Wales. A significant problem that we need to re-examine is how proactively to help those over 50 who are desperate to work. They may, despite having skills, have been out of the job market for some time. There is an argument for something similar to the Youth Contract, if funds permit at some point, to support those people. Perhaps we need to persuade employers that there is an advantage in recruiting such people from the Work programme.

[Guto Bebb]

I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. One of the strengths of the Work programme in rural Wales is the fact that providers have been able to vary their targets for attracting people to self-employment. Originally, the significant targets for self-employment were given to providers in south Wales. However, statistics clearly showed that the self-employment option was not doing well in south Wales, but that in rural and north Wales there was considerable interest in taking that route. There is a significant amount of support available from Work programme providers, but, more importantly, there is flexibility in the system to allow the numbers to be switched, and that has benefited many in my part of the world.

[Stephen Timms]

The hon. Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris) raised an interesting point. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it could be useful if eligibility to the new enterprise allowance were to be extended to participants in the Work programme? It is not available to them at the moment.

[Guto Bebb]

That, indeed, is one of the recommendations that I would make to the Department. I have been a key advocate of the new enterprise allowance. A long time ago I was an adviser to people starting out on the old enterprise allowance scheme. There are still businesses in my constituency that were established under that scheme. It is important to provide such joined-up support. I am not making a criticism; Work programme providers are giving valuable support in my constituency to people interested in self-employment. I appreciate the fact that they have developed strong relationships with local enterprise support providers, which is very important; the black box approach is a key issue for Wales. I agree that it would be helpful if the new enterprise allowance were available, especially when there is flexibility in the programme to allow figures and targets to be swapped between different parts of the country. We must not put barriers in the way of people who want self-employment.

Flexibility is a key part of the Work programme. There is no such thing as a standard client. That flexibility is crucial for reaching those who most need support and are most difficult to place. Work programme providers in various parts of the country have sometimes got access to quite specialist support services for individuals, to ready them for the jobs market, and often that support has been partially funded through European funding. For example, the European social fund has enabled some providers to refer Work programme clients to support schemes to make them more work-ready. The Welsh European Funding Office, an arm’s length body fully controlled by the Welsh Government, has decided not to allow Work programme clients access to any programme partially funded by the European social fund. That has been a great barrier to the black box approach. Indeed, Work programme providers in Wales that I have talked to—and certainly the two operating in my constituency—have been unable to get support for their clients that is available elsewhere. That might be support with numeracy, confidence-building or skills, but the providers are not allowed to refer clients to the programmes because of a decision that in Wales if a project is funded by the European social fund the support is not available to Work programme clients.

That is a matter of huge concern. As the report highlights, Welsh performance levels are not as impressive as those in other parts of the country. It could be argued that the economy and employment level in Wales are not as high as elsewhere, but private sector employment growth there, while not spectacular, has been positive since 2010. An extra 69,000 jobs have been generated in the Welsh economy and there is less dependence on the public sector than for a long time. It is bizarre that people who everyone recognises need to be supported into work—and often the ones who most need support—are denied access to programmes provided by further education colleges and specialist providers, just because they are Work programme clients. I am happy to say that evidence from the Welsh Government and the Department for Work and Pensions to the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs, for its report on the Work programme in Wales, will highlight that discrepancy. It is worth pointing out that often the individuals who are worst affected by the decision not to allow Work programme participants to use the schemes may be exactly those who, according to the report we are considering today, are least well served by the Work programme. There is an issue for the DWP, but I also want the message to go out that the Welsh Government should carefully examine the reason why their definition of additionality in European funding differs so markedly from the one used in England.

I have written to small employers in my constituency; and I do not have many large ones. During the general election campaign the present Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was then the shadow Chancellor, wanted to visit my constituency. He asked for a list of employers with more than 500 members of staff, and I could offer him nothing but the local authority. My constituency is very dependent on small businesses; so I have tried to highlight the support available for small businesses from the Work programme. The other thing we have done in my constituency is to undertake a jobs fair, which was a success. We managed to get significant participation and, again, have seen positive outcomes in terms of jobs created. I said clearly to the local newspaper that if one person found a job as a result of the jobs fair, it was my time well spent. Two weeks later, we are up to seven, which is very positive, with another six interviews in the offing.

The key point from that meeting was the fact that a number of small businesses came up to me and said they were confused by the number of organisations telling them that they offered support. This is an important point that we need to get across: we have to ensure that the streamlined level of support and the understanding of what support is available is also part of the way in which we deliver the Work programme. The last thing we want is for employers to feel that it is too difficult to engage with such an important scheme as the Work programme.

My experience of the Work programme has been positive, but I am not somebody who says there is no way in which we can improve the system. We have had two years, and in my view, the programme is delivering well, but there are problems with specific groups who are being supported by it but are not particularly successful, at this point, in getting into employment. We need to look at such things as why there is a delay before somebody can be referred on to the Work programme. In many cases, the delay is because the job centre will be able to support individuals, because, as everybody knows, the opportunity for people to re-engage with the workplace is much higher when they have recently lost a job than it is after several months.

However, there is an issue about identifying individuals who might have specific barriers in terms of getting back into the workplace. Why would it not be possible for such people to be referred immediately on to the Work programme? I am not sure whether there would be a huge additional cost, but we would avoid the period in which somebody loses their confidence for a period because they are in the job centre system and perhaps feeling increasingly dejected as they are unable to get back into the workplace. When identifying someone as needing particular levels of support, it might be worth considering that such individuals could be referred to the Work programme earlier. If we have confidence, as I do, that the Work programme is adapting and meeting the challenges of helping people back into the workplace, the sooner we can refer some people on to it, the better. I would like people to consider that point.

It is also fair to say that the programme was established quickly. The Select Committee recognises that it was an achievement to get the contracts signed and the programme up and running so quickly, but there is always an opportunity to regroup and readdress some issues. I talk to providers in my constituency and yes, they are very enthusiastic about the scheme, yes, they are confident that they will deliver in due course, and yes, they are frustrated with some restrictions in a Welsh context, but one comment that comes out strongly is that the assessment of individuals based on the benefits that they currently claim is a blunt tool, in terms of identifying the required support.

I understand that the reason why that was the way forward initially was that we needed to get the scheme up and running, and obviously, we assess people in terms of what sort of benefits they qualify for. However, as we have more confidence in the providers of the Work programme—and increasingly, we are confident that in most parts of the country we have Work programme providers who know what they are doing—we need to have an increased level of understanding about individual clients’ needs. Ultimately, if there are barriers because of somebody being categorised for a particular benefit, and that barrier is stopping them getting the support they need, we should, at least, try to recognise that and address it in due course. There is an argument for looking carefully at the way in which we assess individuals in terms of the level of support that they need, rather the using the blunt instrument of the benefits that they are receiving.

We also have to look carefully at the fact that we are now coming to the end of the initial two-year period. Clearly, the aim and aspiration is that the vast majority of people in due course will find employment. Current figures show about 56% being returned to job centres and about 41% going into employment, while some have been lost, or have left the system in some way. That is not a bad performance—obviously, I would like to see a majority gaining jobs—but we need to start thinking carefully about what we do now. Do we extend the programme? I have talked to individual Work programme clients—and advisers—and what has been striking is that a number have said that it has taken them a significant period of time simply to rebuild their confidence, and to feel that they can face an employer across a table and try and sell themselves. The coalition Government and, certainly, the DWP need to think carefully about whether there is mileage in extending the Work programme for particular clients for longer than two years. The two-year period is, again, a blunt instrument, because it is one rule for all, despite the fact that we recognise that some individuals need more support than others.

Nobody would deny that we can look at ways to improve the system, but we should be doing so from the point of view of claiming that there are great success stories and significant developments in the Work programme that are helping people get back into employment. As politicians, we need to be constructive friends of the Work programme. Where concerns exist, we need to highlight them, but we need to do so in the context of acknowledging that with a significantly better value-for-money ratio, the programme is delivering support and delivering people back into the workplace. Can it do more? Of course it can. Do we want it to do more? Of course we do. Can the Government look at ideas about changing elements of the programme to be more supportive of those who find it most difficult to find employment? Yes, I think the Government should, but we should also recognise that to date, the programme is a success story. I only hope that that success continues and is enhanced, and if changes result in that enhancement being even greater, no one would be more pleased than me.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

I apologise for missing the first minute or two of the debate. I very much welcome the Select Committee report and the telling observations made by the Chair of the Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg), in her opening speech. I also welcome the contributions from the other members of the Committee—my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams) and the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd); and indeed from the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb).

I share the Chair’s disappointment that the Government’s response was so cursory and did not address many recommendations fully, but we cannot blame the new Minister for that. I warmly welcome her to her new role. I congratulate her on her appointment. I look forward to debating these matters with her in the coming months. I hope that we will get a little hint from her this afternoon that she recognises the extent to which the Work programme is underperforming at the moment and the fact that it needs change, as the hon. Member for Eastbourne said. I am not denying that good things are happening in the Work programme, but it is underperforming and needs change. We need to look for a major change when the current contracts end.

The hon. Member for Eastbourne talked about those who had left the programme. There were 74,630 people referred to the Work programme in its first month, June 2011, but 53,720 of them returned to Jobcentre Plus after two years without a job. That is a disappointing outcome after two years’ effort. The hon. Member for Aberconwy is right to say that the Work programme got off to a slow start, which was predicted and could have been avoided, but unfortunately was not. I hope that we will see a significantly better performance over the coming months, but of those referred in that first month, more than 50,000 were badly served, with a few of them getting only a couple of face-to-face meetings and a phone call or two, as the hon. Member for Eastbourne described. I am sure that is part of the reason why we saw such a big rise in unemployment at that point.

[Guto Bebb]

According to House of Commons Library figures, 96,000 participants have completed 104 weeks, of which 54,000 have returned, meaning that 40,000 have gone into employment.

[Stephen Timms]

The numbers I have are slightly different, but we can look up the figures. Certainly, 50,000 people spending two years going back to the jobcentre is a disappointing start, but I hope that we will see better figures in future.

I was struck forcefully by something that the Chancellor of the Exchequer said in his spending review statement about the task facing the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. He said:

“That will require a difficult drive for efficiency, and a hard-headed assessment of underperforming programmes.”—[Official Report, 26 June 2013; Vol. 565, c. 314.]

The Select Committee is right to address key issues underpinning the underperformance of the Work programme identified by the Chancellor. The Centre for Economic and Social Inclusion has been commissioned to carry out the official evaluation of the Work programme, and I think that it will produce an interesting piece of work. In its analysis of the 26 September on the most recent performance data, it points out that two years in, the Work programme is not performing as well as the flexible new deal. The percentage of those over 25 entering the programme who secured a job in two years is 35%; it was 38.9% under the flexible new deal. The Minister’s predecessor but two used to castigate the flexible new deal. It turns out, according to CESI observations, that it was better than the current programme.

One thing that would help, and that the Minister could do quickly, would be to lift the ban on providers publishing data about what is going on in their areas. The ban was introduced—let us be frank—to safeguard the career prospects of the then Minister who introduced it, to whom I recall that the present Minister was Parliamentary Private Secretary, and in that it was successful. The right hon. Gentleman was promoted to his current post in September 2012 and a few weeks later we saw the first Work programme performance data, by which time he was safely off the scene. The ban means that information about what works well has been disseminated much too slowly and the underperformance that concerns the Chancellor, and I suspect all of us, would have been less if providers had been free to publish their performance data, as they were in the past.

The Government’s “Open Public Services” White Paper says:

“To make informed choices and hold services to account people need good information, so we will ensure that key data about public services, user satisfaction and the performance of all providers from all sectors is in the public domain”.

Actually, we had a complete ban on any data at all for the first 18 months of the Work programme. There are still no data, as the Select Committee has pointed out, about subcontractor performance. The “Open Public Services” White Paper, published by the Cabinet Office, uses the phrase

“all providers from all sectors”,

but we have still had nothing at all from the subcontractors. From that quote, I want to pick up the point about user satisfaction, which the Select Committee report also mentions. The Select Committee called, quite rightly, for regular surveys of user satisfaction on the Work programme, which would be valuable information. The “Open Public Services” White Paper had an effusive foreword written by the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister, in which they signed up to its goals. We should understand the user experience on the Work programme. The Government’s response to that recommendation is simply to tell us that there will be a couple of surveys of people who have been on the Work programme. That is not what the White Paper stated was going to happen. There should be much more information about what people are experiencing. The fact that there is not is one of the reasons for the underperformance that the Chancellor has pointed out.

The hon. Member for Eastbourne was absolutely right to highlight concerns about the performance of the Work programme for people on employment and support allowance. The Work programme invitation to tender stated that if nothing was done, 15% of those people would find a sustained job outcome within two years. The minimum performance standard was set at 10% above that, which is 16.5%. Paragraph 3.18 of the invitation to tender states:

“DWP expects that Providers will significantly exceed these minimum levels.”

They have actually achieved, as the hon. Gentleman stated, 5.8%. The Royal National Institute of Blind People tells me that 690 people with sight impairments were referred to the Work programme in its first 22 months, and 20 of them got sustained job outcomes. St Mungo’s has sent us a briefing for the debate, which tells us that 54% of homeless people surveyed for St Mungo’s, Crisis and Homeless Link reported seeing their Work programme adviser once a month or less frequently. It is not surprising, therefore, that very few of those who face serious hurdles—people with health problems and people who are homeless—have got into work.

I was in Australia last week, where I talked to people about those issues. There are quite a few providers that operate both in Australia and in the UK, and they said that the Work programme model was wrong and that “creaming and parking” was endemic; the hon. Member for Eastbourne has touched on that. I agree with the Select Committee that specialist voluntary sector providers have not been used enough. They have been squeezed out. In Australia, I was told that 50% of provision is from the voluntary sector, and I think in the Work programme it is about 20% and going down. As others have said in this debate, some good resources are not being utilised. St Mungo’s is a very good example. It had a contract with several prime providers in London, which was signed when the Work programme started in June 2011. By April 2012 it had not had a single referral, and it had to pull out and give up.

I agree with the suggestion that we should have a proper jobseeker classification model, which we do not have at the moment. There are many things that should be said, but I will conclude with this. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is right: the programme is underperforming. The Minister, who I welcome once again to her new role, has the opportunity to address that underperformance. Some of it can be addressed quite quickly, and the Select Committee report can be a real help. I wish the Minister well in her new role and I look forward to her reply.

[Mr Charles Walker (in the Chair)]

The Minister may now speak, but I will call Dame Anne Begg at 4.28 pm on the nose.

Oral Answers to Questions

Stephen Timms Excerpts

Monday 1st July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hoban]

I will join my hon. Friend in congratulating his local Jobcentre Plus on the work it has done. Jobcentre Plus does an excellent job in helping people into work, but of course helped by the private sector, which has created 1.3 million new jobs since May 2010.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

A key step for jobcentres will be the introduction of universal credit. A press release from the Secretary of State in May last year claimed that

“all new applications for existing benefits and credits will be entirely phased out by April 2014.”

Will the Minister acknowledge that jobcentres will still be handling new applications for existing benefits long after next April?

[Mr Hoban]

The right hon. Gentleman never ceases to amaze me with the number of questions he asks about universal credit. He knows exactly what the time scale is. We have said when the national roll-out will be completed and I thought he would have been delighted today that we have extended the roll-out to Wigan.

Oral Answers to Questions

Stephen Timms Excerpts

Monday 20th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State will recall that I wrote to him in November 2010 to warn that the IT system could not possibly be delivered in the time scale he was claiming—unfortunately, that has proved to be the case. In November 2011, he announced that 1 million people would be receiving universal credit by April 2014. What is his latest estimate of the number of people who will be receiving universal credit by April 2014?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Let me remind the right hon. Gentleman of a quote from the Institute for Fiscal Studies about the way we are rolling the system out. It said:

“The level of problems caused to tax credit claimants and employers as the new tax credit systems went live in April 2003 demonstrated that there were undetected gaps in the design of the testing regime for the systems.”

This system is a success. We have four years to roll it out, we are rolling it out now, we will continue the roll-out nationwide and we will have a system that works—and one that works because we have tested it properly.

[Stephen Timms]

In November 2011, 1 million people were going to be claiming by next April: now, the Secretary of State has not the faintest idea how many there will be—so much for this project being on schedule. There were supposed to be four pathfinders, but now there is only one, under which the only people who can get universal credit are those in the most straightforward circumstances. How long will it now realistically be before he has an IT system that can cope with, for example, applicants with children?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Interestingly enough, I had the right hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) in to see me last year and I told them exactly how we were rolling the system out—[Interruption.] No, no. I told them that the pathfinder would continue first of all with single claimants. As for the idea that somehow things have changed—he knew about that then and the situation is exactly the same now.