Oral Answers to Questions

Iain Duncan Smith Excerpts

Monday 24th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)]

9. How many people have had their benefits reduced to the maximum of £26,000 (a) nationally and (b) on the Isle of Wight to date.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

By December 2013, 36,471 households had been capped nationally. Local figures obviously vary from area to area. The Isle of Wight is an area that does not get capped as much; some 100 households or fewer have been capped so far. These numbers include single households without children, for whom the cap is less than £26,000.

[Mr Turner]

The average gross wage on the Isle of Wight is just over £18,000, so take-home pay is about £15,000. The benefits cap is £10,000 more than the average islander earns. How can I explain this to islanders? Does the Minister think that I should mention that the Labour party believes that there should be no limit at all on the largesse of taxpayers?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Far be it for me to recommend to my hon. Friend what he should mention to his constituents, but he might well start with the fact that this benefits cap was opposed by Labour when we implemented it. His point about the level is simple. We have embedded the cap now, it has been rolled out and we have made sure that it has worked properly. We have seen a huge number of people move back to work; some 19,000 people who were going to be capped have gone to work and thus avoided the cap. So the cap is successful everywhere. However, we should remember that there are differences in income and in London a lower cap would be a rather severe penalty to put on people. Therefore, although I keep the cap under review, I have no plans at the moment to change its level.

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

The hon. Member for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner) clearly wants the cap to be reduced in his area and the Secretary of State makes an important point about London. Does that not suggest that there is some argument for taking into account regional variations in costs, so that the cap reflects what is happening locally?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I am intrigued and pleased that the hon. Gentleman says that he supports the principle of the cap, which is more—in essence—than the Opposition have ever done in any vote. They voted against the cap—just in case they have forgotten. My point to him is a viable one. The trouble is where should regional calculations be made? Cities in regions have different levels of income from some of the countryside, so it starts to become quite a complicated process. Of course, I am willing to discuss this issue with the hon. Gentleman and anybody else who thinks that they have a plan, and I will certainly look at that, but right now the cap is successful, the majority of the public think it is a good idea and it was only his Front-Bench team who decided to vote against it.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

Does the Secretary of State think it appropriate to consider putting a cap on the amount of housing benefit that landlords can receive? Can we at the very least have some transparency, so that we can see how many people who support the Tory party rake in hundreds of thousands of pounds in benefits?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I do not know if it is now Labour policy to cap landlords in that way; I suspect that the immediate effect would be fewer landlords making properties available. It seems to me that that would be a complicated, tortuous and pointless policy. However, I think there is plenty of transparency; some of the papers seem to have found out the facts for themselves.

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[Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con)]

18. What recent progress his Department has made on the roll-out of universal credit.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

Since October, universal credit has started running in Hammersmith, Rugby and Inverness and it is rolling out today in Harrogate and Bath. It is already out in a number of other centres up in the north-west. Based on caseload projections, some 6,000-plus people are likely to be paid universal credit in the pathfinder. That will be subject to confirmation in the official statistics. Many more claim jobseeker’s allowance using the key elements of universal credit, which are also being rolled out to a wider audience. Some 270,000 jobseekers are now using elements such as the claimant commitment, which is part of universal credit.

[Nick Smith]

Well, the Secretary of State is certainly going faster than universal credit.

Under the Government’s original timetable 1 million people would be receiving universal credit by April this year. When does the Secretary of State now expect this 1 million target to be met?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I have said constantly and I continue to say that we will not be giving out targets for dates. As I said earlier, roll-out has begun. I invite the hon. Gentleman to go to any one of the centres and talk to the staff there and to the claimants. He will find that what is happening is a real improvement in their seeking work and getting work, and in the advisers being able to apply themselves to those with the greatest difficulty. Universal credit will have rolled through by 2016, as I said, with all those benefits merged into one, and people will be claiming universal credit, not any other benefit.

[Mr Speaker]

I call Laura Sandys.

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[Laura Sandys]

I am a strong believer in behavioural change, and my behaviour will change shortly—but just before it does, what assessment has my right hon. Friend made of the behavioural change that is happening as a result of the introduction of universal credit?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I say to my hon. and highly informed Friend that it is important for us to understand what this is all about. Colleagues on either side of the House should attend centres where universal credit has been rolled out. They will hear from the advisers that we are beginning to see a real change in culture among those who are claiming benefit and those who are delivering it. All the centres that I have visited believe that this is improving the situation for claimants, and it makes life a lot easier and a lot more efficient for advisers in jobcentres.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

Would that the Secretary of State were as informative as the Speaker. The answer to the question on the Order Paper—in other words, how many people are on universal credit—is 3,200. Bearing in mind that so far universal credit has cost £612 million, that is £191,250 per person, which does not compare very well with the £6,500 per person that was mentioned for the future jobs fund. It seems that the Prime Minister was right when it comes to Government pet projects: money is no object. When will the Secretary of State allow the Opposition direct access to his officials so that we can sort out his mess?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I rather hope that at some point the hon. Gentleman had a maths O-level, because his maths is so pathetic as to make it risible. He has all the numbers and all the amounts that are relevant to the development of all the equipment that will roll out the complete universal credit. [Interruption.] I am going to answer this question. In truth, the operational running costs of the pathfinder, which is what we are running at the moment, are some £6 million, which equates to £200 per claim. By the way, he needs a little correction. In case he had not noticed, we have already invited him and all his colleagues to come and visit us. I think they are down to visit us this week, so he needs to check his diary, or maybe his colleagues did not want him to come with them. I do not know.

[Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab)]

15. What assessment he has made of the effects of the migration of claimants from incapacity benefit to employment and support allowance.

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[Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)]

17. What recent assessment he has made of the extent of abuse of zero-hours contracts in back-to-work schemes.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

Under the Work programme, providers are paid for getting people into sustained work, generally a job of at least 16 hours a week, paid at the national minimum wage or more, and which lasts for a minimum of six months. That can be two or three jobs, but none the less, they have to last for six months.

Outcomes are counted on that basis, therefore DWP does not hold information about the employment contract itself. Moving someone on to a zero-hours contract would not count as a job outcome unless it entailed meaningful work that was registered, taking them off benefits.

[Chi Onwurah]

My constituent was taken on by a security company on a zero-hours contract with a promise of 40 hours a week, but he has been given only 17 hours, while the company takes on more staff from the Work programme with more promises of proper hours. He cannot pay his rent, he cannot sign on because he would be considered to have made himself unemployed, he cannot plan and he cannot live. When will the Secretary of State end this abuse of zero-hours contracts?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

As I understand it from what the hon. Lady said, her constituent was not taken on under the Work programme, but others in the Work programme were, which was causing him the problem. If she wants to give me the full details of the case I will look at it, because that is slightly different from what I understood her question to be about. If there is an abuse among the Work programme providers in this regard, I will certainly deal with it.

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

Will the Secretary of State look at those vacancies, particularly in the Ryedale jobcentre, that are the most difficult to fill, which tend to be in the care sector? Will he also look at any abuse of zero-hours contracts in the employment of carers, whether under the Work programme or any other long-term sustainable work?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

First, may I say how pleased I am to see my hon. Friend in her place? It is my personal hope that she remains there and returns to the House again, because she gets great coverage for her constituents. The issue she raises is an important one, but we need to get the right balance between what zero-hours contracts deliver and any abuses there might be. The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills is carrying out a consultation, and we are fully co-operating in that and will ensure that such contracts do not cause problems in the Work programme. However, it is worth remembering that those contracts also provide people with a flexible way of working and the freedom to arrange jobs around other commitments, and they allow employers to be competitive in response to market trends. I therefore think that we must get the balance right with zero-hours contracts and not throw the baby out with the bathwater. We must recognise that for many people they are positive and helpful, but we also want to end any abuses there might be for others.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

19. What plans he has to meet representatives of the Trussell Trust.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

Although food banks are not a Department for Work and Pensions or Government responsibility, Department representatives and Ministers—myself included—have on occasion had cause to meet representatives of food banks, including the Trussell Trust.

[Susan Elan Jones]

A decade ago at Easterhouse the Secretary of State said how important small, grass-roots community organisations are. If he really believes what he said then, when he spoke the rhetoric of broken Britain, is not it time he set a date, met the representatives and listened to what they have to say about food poverty in the United Kingdom?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I have two points for the hon. Lady. First, I have just said that all of us have at some point met representatives of the Trussell Trust. Secondly, I absolutely think that those involved in food banks and in supporting those who are in difficulty or in need are very valuable members of the community, and I celebrate the work they do. I believe that it is the right thing for them to do. I think that all those involved in food banks are decent people trying to do a decent bit of work for those in need of help, and we support that in general terms as constituency MPs. However, I must say that the over-politicisation of this issue has done no help at all, as some leaders of food banks have attested over the past week.

[Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)]

The Trussell Trust has been exposing the real impact of Ministers’ policies, so out of pique they have refused to meet the trust’s representatives since last summer. Now that they have been overruled by the Prime Minister, who met trust representatives last week, will DWP Ministers at last step up to their responsibilities? Was not the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster absolutely right when he said last week that

“there shouldn’t be people living with nothing, in destitution, in a country which is as prosperous as this”?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I have two points for the right hon. Gentleman. First, he, his party and others have deliberately set out to politicise the issue of food banks—[Interruption.] Well, those are not my words. The person who runs the Oxford food bank has said:

“I think this whole debate has become hopelessly politicised.”

Food banks do a good service, but they have been much in the news. People know they are free. They know about them and they will ask social workers to refer them. It would be wrong to pretend that the mass of publicity has not also been a driver in their increased use. The Opposition, notwithstanding the fact that under them the number of food banks increased tenfold, are trying to make a political issue out of this. They have done no service to those who need help and support and no service to those who run the food banks.

[Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

Today I welcome the latest statistics showing the growth in employment over the past year. Against a rise of 54,000 foreign nationals at work, 360,000 more UK nationals are employed, a far better record than under the previous Government. With new measures to tighten up on immigration still further, such as the minimum earnings threshold announced last week, we are ensuring that those who want to work and who will work hard and play by the rules will see the benefits of Britain’s growth.

[Steve Baker]

The bishops have said that there is an “acute moral imperative” to act on welfare, and I agree, because that has been clear since at least 2006, when the Centre for Social Justice published its report, “Breakdown Britain”. Will the Secretary of State confirm that he is still on a moral mission to break those cycles of deprivation that lead to entrenched poverty so that people can live lives of hope and fulfilment?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I am determined, as I have been since I arrived as Secretary of State, to improve the welfare system so that it supports people back into positive lifestyles, and that is what we are doing. More people have moved from economic inactivity, which is now at its lowest levels, back into work. There are now fewer workless households than there were on our arrival. When we came into government, one in 20—a fifth—of all households were without work; that figure has now reduced for the first time in 30 years.

[Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)]

On 13 January, the Secretary of State told this House that between 3,000 and 5,000 people were wrongly paying the bedroom tax because of a loophole in the legislation. Since then, councils have been trawling through years of records to find out who has been overpaid. Will the Secretary of State update us on how many people were wrongly paying the bedroom tax?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

On the loophole that I talked about when I made that comment, the estimate we had, which was drawn from local authorities and still stands, in our view, was that some 5,000 people may be affected. That is based on the most up-to-date data that local authorities have given. I know that the hon. Lady and her team have made a freedom of information request, but the key thing is that the information we have is based on all the local authorities’ evidence to us, and I do not believe that her evidence is in any way accurate.

[Rachel Reeves]

Yes, we have put in a freedom of information request, because we did not think that the Secretary of State’s numbers were correct, and, as it turns out, they are not. The FOI request shows that with 194 out of 346 councils having responded so far, a staggering 21,500 people have been wrongly paying the bedroom tax, including 4,198 in Tory local authorities, so perhaps they have got their numbers wrong too. There are 275 in Tory Chester, 200 in Tory Peterborough, 234—

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[Mr Duncan Smith]

Yet again we hear from the hon. Lady a complete failure to mention the fact that in all her Government’s time in power, they did nothing for those who lived in overcrowded accommodation. A quarter of a million people were left to us who suffer every day because they cannot get the right rooms. One million people were left on the waiting list, and the house building programme fell to its lowest point since the 1920s. There is only one answer to her: sorting this out is the right thing to do, and shame on a Government who did nothing for those in greatest difficulty.

[Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con)]

T2. Will the Minister join me in welcoming the fall in unemployment in my constituency over the past three years? We now have about 2,500 more people in work than in 2010, benefiting young and old, those in full-time and part-time positions, and men and women. Does not this highlight how important it is for the Government to stick to their economic plans and ensure that the well-being of this country improves?

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[Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)]

T4. The Minister will be aware of the 16% drop in unemployment in my constituency, along with the 34% drop in youth unemployment. Will he join me in welcoming the support of local businesses at our next annual Enfield jobs fair on 7 March, where employers are coming to support us in helping to find work for the unemployed?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I will do everything I can to make sure I am there to support my hon. Friend, who is also my parliamentary neighbour. He is right to say that what we have seen in the recent employment figures has happened only because we stuck to the course of our economic plan and because the welfare reforms are delivering more people into work. All that would be damaged if that lot were in power.

[Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)]

T7. Two of my constituents—both of whom are UK citizens—went to other European Union countries to find work, but when those jobs ended and they came home they found they were no longer eligible to receive benefits in the UK. Did the Government mean to penalise UK citizens who go abroad to get off the UK unemployment register, and is not that exactly the wrong signal to give? Will the Secretary of State change the regulations?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

As the hon. Gentleman should know, we are bringing forward tougher sanctions on those who come here just to take benefits, rather than to work. Of course, British citizens working abroad are more likely to have gone abroad with a strong work record in the UK, so when they come back that is taken into account. If the hon. Gentleman is worried about a particular case, perhaps he would like to write to me and I will take it up. The sanctions are fair because they stop people coming to countries such as Britain just because they have better welfare systems than theirs.

[Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con)]

T5. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on all the work he has put into getting people back into employment, but I was visited this weekend by one of my constituents, Paul Vachon, who has been unemployed for more than 12 months and is highly skilled. His major concern is that, because he is close to the point of retirement, his employability is diminished. What are the Government doing to encourage and support those such as Paul who are seeking jobs at the point when they are about to retire?

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[Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op)]

Mr Speaker, you will remember that during exchanges at the last Work and Pensions questions, the Secretary of State said that Manchester had spent very little of its discretionary housing allocation. I wonder whether he wants to use this opportunity to clarify that allegation, given that only two days later, his Department granted Manchester city council an extra £200,000 of discretionary housing payment in recognition that its money was nearly spent.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I stand by the figures I gave the hon. Lady, and I also stand by the fact that Manchester—[Interruption.] No, the figures I gave her were the halfway cut for the year, when she said that it had already overspent—[Interruption.] No, she cannot run away from it. She said that it had overspent, and the reality is that it had not overspent. Since then, it has asked for more money. We have a pot, and we have allowed it to have more money. That is the point of the discretionary housing payment. Welcome to the world of decision making.

[Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)]

My constituent Jane has been receiving treatment for cancer since her diagnosis last October, but she was wrongly told that she was excluded from applying for help unless she resigned from her job altogether or became pregnant. Will the Minister meet me to discuss Jane’s suggestions to improve how patients receiving treatment for serious illnesses are referred by the NHS towards help, such as personal independence payment, in the interests of joined-up government?