Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Walney Excerpts

Monday 18th February 2019 Commons Chamber

[Mr Ellwood]

I was delighted to meet Rock2Recovery not very long ago and I pay tribute to the work it does, along with all the other charities, as this is so important. No one size fits all in supporting our veterans; there are many avenues by which we can ensure that they get the support and credit that they deserve.

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Ind)]

Is the Secretary of State in favour of other Departments spending a few million so that he can save hundreds of millions from his budget? If he is, will he put the weight of the Ministry behind our drive, with BAE Systems and the community, to make Barrow even more attractive a place to come and stay in, so that we can improve the productivity of the workforce?

[Gavin Williamson]

Having had the opportunity to visit Barrow a number of times, I know that the town offers so very much. We are very dependent on the residents of Barrow for the amazing work they do in developing our nuclear deterrent. I would be happy to meet the hon. Gentleman to discuss how we can work across the Government to deliver that vision.

Modernising Defence Programme

Lord Walney Excerpts

Tuesday 18th December 2018 Commons Chamber

[Gavin Williamson]

As yet, we have received no formal requests from any Department, but we are making contingency plans. We will ensure that 3,500 service personnel, including regulars and reserves, are held in readiness to support any Department with contingency needs.

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Ind)]

The Secretary of State is right to push for more creativity in thinking about the future capability of our underwater environment, but is it not time for him to confirm that that will be based on a submarine platform?

[Gavin Williamson]

The hon. Gentleman tempts me to do so, but it is fair to say that our investment in submarines is currently vast, involving both the Astute and Dreadnought programmes. We want to think about innovation, and how we can best tap into the skills that are held by BAE Systems and the people of Barrow to develop the platforms that will succeed Astute, and we hope to be able to update the hon. Gentleman and the House on how we expect to do that in the not too distant future.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Walney Excerpts

Monday 26th November 2018 Commons Chamber

[Gavin Williamson]

As I said earlier, we recognise not only the brilliant skills that are held at the Devonport dockyard, but the importance of having a strong relationship with all our suppliers. We always work very closely, whether it is with Babcock, BAE Systems or Rolls-Royce, on the availability and deliverability of all our military assets.

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Ind)]

The Secretary of State was obviously missed at our CASD reception, but we understand that he had a rather important emergency Cabinet meeting and noted that when he emerged from it, he remained as the Defence Secretary, which was helpful. Will he pay tribute from the Dispatch Box to the work that has gone into ensuring that we have had the continuation of the deterrent for 50 years, and does he agree that the problems with the refits make it all the more important that we deliver Dreadnought on time?

[Gavin Williamson]

I formally offer my apologies for not being able to attend the reception, which I sadly had to miss, but I look forward to attending a future one, and I would like to formally record my thanks to the men and women of Barrow, who have continuously worked so hard to provide us with the world’s cutting-edge submarine technology. Like the hon. Gentleman, I was very proud when I went through Barrow to see those Astute class submarines and the Dreadnought being built. It is absolutely integral to our national security. This is not just about the Royal Navy, but about the whole industrial supply chain pulling together to make sure that Dreadnought is delivered on time and in budget.

Defence Industry and Shipbuilding

Lord Walney Excerpts

Wednesday 11th July 2018 Commons Chamber

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Ind)]

I will try to cut short my soaring rhetoric, Mr Speaker, and give you four succinct minutes.

I agreed with much of what the Minister said about the nature of the threat we face and the need for the UK to prepare for them, not just now and for the years ahead but for the decades ahead, and about the scale of the potential threat from Russia, as it rearms and seeks to spend £30 billion extra per year on defence. We do not know where China will be in 10 or 20 years, either, except that it will almost certainly deliver on its vision to become a super military power by 2050.

I agreed with all of that, but then, towards his conclusion, the Minister clearly stated that there was opposition between building these ships in the UK and economic efficiency, and he suggested that there was opposition between building them in the UK and maximising the Navy’s capabilities. That is just wrong. We need only look at the experience of Barrow shipyard and the submarine programme in the 1990s, which my right hon. Friend the Member for Warley (John Spellar) referred to so accurately.

Back in 1990 the Vanguard class of submarines came to an end, and the then Conservative Government did not introduce the Astute class programme so that there could be a seamless run-through. The result of that was not only mass unemployment, with more than 10,000 people made redundant, but all the social and economic costs which still scar the community now. It made the whole business of shipbuilding in the United Kingdom far less efficient, and it made us far less capable. Because of the delay and because of the skills that were lost to Australia and elsewhere, the first Astute-class submarine was £1 billion over budget. The overrun now affects the Dreadnought class to the extent that it is touch and go whether the new vessels will be in place to maintain the continuous at-sea deterrence which, next year, will have existed for 50 whole years.

It is clearly in both the nation’s economic interests and the interests of its capability that we maintain shipbuilding, so that if we have to greatly increase our naval capability because of the uncertainty posed by future expansive states, we have the necessary capability. The Minister suggested that it was in some way wrong to give contracts in order to retain work in shipyards, but that is exactly what is needed to maintain Britain’s capability to respond to uncertain threats in the future.

[Jamie Stone]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[John Woodcock]

I will not, because of the need for us to wrap up.

That reason alone—apart from all the jobs that will be involved—is sufficient to place contracts in the UK, and that is what the Government ought to do.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Walney Excerpts

Monday 11th June 2018 Commons Chamber

[Gavin Williamson]

I think my right hon. Friend is saving that for the next Defence questions.

We need to be looking at the threats that are starting to evolve right across the world, including in Europe. Those threats are increasing dramatically, and we have to ensure that we have the right capabilities to meet them. That is why we have the modernising defence programme to look in detail at how those threats are evolving, and why we are leading that analysis in the Ministry of Defence rather than any other part of Government. We want to come up with the solutions and answers to ensure that Britain and our allies are defended to the very best of our capability.

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Ind)]

The Secretary of State knows that it is about not simply the amount of money but when it is made available for key programmes. It was great to welcome him up to Barrow shipyard a couple of weeks back, but does he accept that unless he can persuade the Treasury to release more money for the Dreadnought programme in the crucial early years, we risk the programme being more expensive and potentially late, endangering the continuous at-sea deterrent?

[Gavin Williamson]

The hon. Gentleman makes a valuable point. It is essential that we have the right resources at the right time to deliver that critical programme. That is why I was so pleased that we were able to secure an extra £800 million in this financial year to ensure that our nuclear deterrent is delivered on time and in budget.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Walney Excerpts

Monday 23rd April 2018 Commons Chamber

[Gavin Williamson]

My hon. Friend is absolutely correct to highlight that increasing threat. The Government have committed to spending £1.9 billion to ensure that our defences are in the best possible place. As the nature of warfare starts to change, and as the threats increase, we have to be realistic about the fact that the two realms of cyber and conventional forces will increasingly start to merge. We should not just think about the importance of defending ourselves in terms of cyber-security; it is also about conventional forces.

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)]

Russian submarines are increasingly aggressive, so is the contract for Astute boat 7 signed and is the Secretary of State alive to the need to accelerate future capability research so that we can get back on top in this arena?

[Gavin Williamson]

I very much hope to be able to update the House and the hon. Gentleman in the not-too-distant future. We are very conscious of the importance of our deterrence, which is absolutely pivotal for keeping this country safe, and our submarines in the north Atlantic are absolutely central to that.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Walney Excerpts

Monday 5th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mark Lancaster]

My hon. Friend will be aware of the recent deployment of HMS Sutherland, and there will be further such deployments in future to that part of the world.

For the first time in a generation, the Royal Navy is actually growing. It grew in manpower last year and will continue to grow over the next couple of years, and not just in manpower—the size of its surface fleet is also growing. The latest of the offshore patrol vessels arrived in Portsmouth only this weekend.

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)]

Given everything that the Minister’s boss has just said about the importance of NATO, the deterrent and the threat from Russia, it would be absolutely unthinkable, would it not, not to order the full quota of seven Astute class submarines?

[Mark Lancaster]

The hon. Gentleman is a champion of his constituency and repeatedly comes to the House to support the work that his constituents have done for generations in building our submarines. I am very confident that shortly he will have the news that he wishes for.

Modernising Defence Programme

Lord Walney Excerpts

Thursday 25th January 2018 Commons Chamber

[Gavin Williamson]

We are very much looking at that option. We need to ensure that forces that are even further east can be properly resupplied and supported.

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)]

I think the whole House will congratulate the Secretary of State on taking the review out of the straitjacket, but is there a risk that the submarine programme—in particular, funding for Astute boat 7, which has not yet been priced—could be diverted by the review?

[Gavin Williamson]

It is too early in the process for me to be able to comment on that, but I will look into the issue and come back to the hon. Gentleman. Obviously, the whole point of the programme is to look at things afresh. However, we have commented fairly regularly on the increasing threat that we face in the north Atlantic, which has been raised by Members. We must ensure that we have submarines that are able to operate in and defend the north Atlantic.

Defence

Lord Walney Excerpts

Thursday 11th January 2018 Commons Chamber

[Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (Con)]

It is a privilege to rise to speak in such a consensual debate; I congratulate the hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) on securing it. It is an honour to speak after the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Ruth Smeeth), who is such a vociferous supporter of the Royal Navy and Royal Marines.

In a Westminster Hall debate a couple of months ago, I cited the age-old list of enemies of the fleet; Members will forgive me for repeating it today. They are, in reverse order: the French, because with the Navy it is always the French; the enemy of the day; and, of course, Whitehall. That is, of course, typical Jack humour, but as ever with Jack there is an uncomfortable grain of truth. As a Conservative proud to think of my party as the part of the armed forces, it is rather difficult to swallow.

On the one hand, the Government have proved themselves to be committed to the defence of our nation and the resourcing of strong, capable, adaptable and modern armed services. The UK still has the second largest defence budget in NATO, the largest in the EU and the fifth largest in the world. It is one of only five countries that meets the NATO baseline of spending 2% of GDP on defence—a depressing statistic in itself. It is the Conservative party and this Government who have committed to increase defence spending by 0.5% above inflation every year until 2021, meaning that the defence spend is £35.1 billion in this financial year, will be £36 billion next year and will go up to £39.7 billion in 2021.

The last year did see unprecedented investment in equipment across the forces. I apologise in advance for this rather long list, but it is important to underline how much equipment is being purchased and built by the Government for the forces of the Crown. The Royal Navy saw HMS Queen Elizabeth being commissioned, the Prince of Wales being named, five offshore patrol vessels start their build, and steel being cut for the first Type 26 frigate, HMS Glasgow, and for the first of the new Dreadnought class ballistic missile submarines. The Astute class programme continues, and the competition for the Type 31E has been unveiled. The Army has seen the warrior infantry fighting vehicles upgraded; 50 upgraded Apache attack helicopters; new Chinook helicopters enter service; and brand new Ajax multi-role armoured vehicles. Meanwhile, the RAF saw the purchase of nine Boeing P-8 maritime patrol aircraft, 48 F-35s, new Voyager transport aircraft, new high altitude surveillance aircraft, more than 20 Protector drones, and Airseeker surveillance aircraft.

I have not even mentioned that the Government side of the House is the only one that unreservedly, without fear or favour, supports the maintenance of Britain’s independent nuclear deterrent. With that record, as well as our unparalleled investment over the past year—

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)]

rose—

[Andrew Bowie]

I will give way to the hon. Gentleman.

[John Woodcock]

I thank the hon. Gentleman, but that is demonstrably not true. Had he been with me during the many circular arguments within the Labour party over the last seven years, rather than having just popped up as a Conservative MP this time, he might know better. Will he correct the record please?

[Andrew Bowie]

If there is a circular argument within the Labour, it shows that it is not united behind an independent nuclear deterrent. Perhaps we should ask some of those who were backstage at Glastonbury last year whether the leader of the Labour party supports an independent nuclear deterrent.

With our record, as well as our unparalleled investment in the defence estate to bring accommodation up to a level suitable for 21st-century life, which is needed, the commitment of the Conservative party and the Government to the forces of the Crown should be unquestioned. In the past seven months, however, it has depressed me to read stories and debates in this place and hear at first hand from those still serving that all is not as rosy on the ground as we would like, and that perhaps we are not doing or spending enough to maintain our dedicated armed forces at the necessary level for them to do the jobs we ask them to do. We cannot underestimate the effect that continual media speculation has on morale in the ranks, especially in my neighbouring constituency at RM Condor, for example, which seems perpetually to have the sword of Damocles hanging over its future.

--- Later in debate ---

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)]

I suspect you may agree, although you would never be ungracious enough to say it, Madam Deputy Speaker, that sometimes debates in this place can go on a bit. But we have heard a genuinely informative and at times inspiring series of contributions today, and it has been a pleasure to sit through and listen to the debate, almost in its entirety. I, like perhaps one or two others, may not have the privilege of winding up a debate any time soon from the Front Bench, so it is a privilege to be the last speaker from the Back Benches in this debate.

[Mr Sweeney]

Almost.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

For the avoidance of doubt, there is still one hon. Member to come and I have not forgotten him.

[John Woodcock]

Who could ever forget him? I say to my hon. Friend that I am terribly sorry—I had not seen him back there.

Let me just add a few thoughts on the threat we face, the budget constraints and personnel issues to the many cogent points that have been made in this debate. First, let me say that it is truly extraordinary that this country is in a position where the Ministry of Defence is locked in a battle with the Treasury and we are talking about desperately trying to save vital capabilities such as our amphibious capabilities, the size of the armed forces and so many others. We are scrapping merely to maintain things at their existing level, when we have heard so often and it is so obvious that the threats we are facing are expanding.

Russia has been mentioned many times in this debate. The scale of the threat posed by President Putin’s expansionist regime is not spoken about nearly enough. It is not mentioned nearly enough that, for the first time since the second world war, part of a European nation has been annexed by another European nation by force. That has almost fallen off the public and political agendas, yet it has happened and it will happen again, unless countries such as the UK can wake up to the scale of the threat we face. The values that we all hold dear are potentially in mortal danger. In an act of terrible complacency, we seemed to believe that the post-cold war consensus had settled those values for good, but they are being eroded. Even now, we are not prepared to understand the scale of the peril they are in.

We have an expansionist Russia, and we have, potentially, a similar mortal threat to our country and our values from the evil ideology of which the latest encapsulation has been Daesh. Although that organisation is crumbling, that ideology will certainly resurface in other forms. Part of the investment that this country makes to combat that ideology will extend far beyond the MOD’s capabilities, but we have seen its capacity to cohere around a capability that can control a state for a certain amount of time.

If we look just beyond Daesh’s first foothold in Iraq, we can see how in Syria our complacency about tackling Daesh and the perversion of Islam that it represents has mingled with our complacency about the threat posed by Russia. As has been well articulated not only today but in a Conservative Member’s question in Prime Minister’s questions this week, that has gravely diminished the UK’s standing and put a question mark not only over our capability to intervene if we wish, but over our willingness ever to do so, despite the fact that our values are threatened.

We have those two weaknesses coming together, as epitomised in Syria. We do not know what the future of the European Union will be after the UK leaves, but we have drawn a red line in respect of areas of future co-operation, so we must have our own capability outside the EU. America is retreating into itself. Aside from the monstrosities of President Trump’s regime, we simply cannot rely on America coming to the aid of our values in Europe.

[Mr Seely]

I do not disagree with the hon. Gentleman’s point—I do not like President Trump any more than he does—but in the US it is an Administration, not a regime. There are regimes in Cuba and Russia, because their democracies are questionable. I know that some of us do not like the American Administration, but it is an Administration, not a regime.

[John Woodcock]

It is, and let us hope it is a one-off. I cannot remember who made this point earlier, but there has been a real question mark over the US’s enduring willingness to engage around the world that dates from before the current Administration. The fact that we can have someone such as President Trump shows that our complacent reliance on the Americans must go forever, even if—God willing—we get someone we can actually trust with the nuclear button in the future.

We have this budget process whereby we have to plead for even current levels of defence spending to be maintained. Let me say another thing on that—this has been mentioned by a number of people. In fact, this is the first time that I can recall agreeing so substantially with Scottish National party Members on an issue—I am sorry to have to break that to them. It must be the case now that the Government act to take the Dreadnought programme out of the Ministry of Defence’s budget and deal with it through the Treasury reserve. I was privileged to be an adviser to the previous Labour Government for a number of years. I remember quite clearly the agreement that the then Defence Secretary, now Lord Hutton, reached with the then Chancellor, now Lord Darling, over restoring what had historically been the position that the nuclear deterrent would be treated outside the MOD’s budget. It was a grave act of complacency by this Government, which came to power in 2010, to rip up that agreement. While I was waiting to speak just now, I tried to refresh my memory of what happened then. I came across the way in which the then Chancellor, George Osborne, announced it at the time. In justifying the decision, he said:

“All budgets have pressure. I don't think there’s anything particularly unique about the Ministry of Defence.”

Well, absolutely. As we have heard from so many speakers, the MOD’s budget, with the capabilities that it is defending, is unique. Even if that complacency was justifiable back then, which it was not, it is deeply worrying that we now have another Chancellor who is potentially adhering to that line of thinking, when all the developments in the world since then have shown that, actually, we did not understand the level of threat we were facing.

In conclusion, let me turn to personnel, but in a different sense from that which has been cogently spoken about by a number of Members.

[Alex Chalk (Cheltenham) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman is making some fair points, if I may say so. Does he accept this one as well? When considering the total amount of money that goes towards our collective national defence, there are a number of pots, particularly in so far as they affect the intelligence services, which are especially important in terms of waging war in cyber-space, that are not necessarily taken account of within the £36 billion of the defence departmental expenditure limit, and that must be taken into consideration when looking at this in the round.

[John Woodcock]

I would be interested in discussing that matter further with the hon. Gentleman. I am not sure whether I accept that point. The whole point of this is that we are talking about very difficult decisions, and I do not envy the Ministers on the Front Bench. We are shifting around money from an overall pot, which is just woefully, woefully inadequate.

Let me talk about personnel. First, locally, I was saddened to see the departure from Barrow shipyard of Will Blamey after only a few months in the job. I wish him very well. I know that he has a big contribution to make in the future and, hopefully, that will be in the field of the strategic defence of our realm. I welcome Cliff Robson as the new managing director. I say that not just to get it on the record, but to make the point that the challenges facing our submarine programme must not be all put at the door of the good men and women at Barrow shipyard.

There has been a level of mismanagement of the submarine programme as part of the suboptimal management of the entire defence equipment programme, and it may be reaching a critical point. It is not acceptable for the Government to lay blame at the door of people who are doing extraordinary work for the defence of the realm; Opposition Members will not allow the Government to get away with that. The Government are currently seeking to starve our future capability of the vital equipment budget, which is not great at the moment, but it is now vital in order to create future capabilities so that we can continue in the business of building submarines.

My final point on personnel relates to the ministerial team here. I am really glad to see the Minister in his place. From the fact that he kept his job in the reshuffle, I take it that he has been given the assurances he sought that the Army will not recede any further. I look forward to him making that clear in his winding-up speech. I welcome the new Minister for defence procurement, who comes in at a critical time. I hope that Opposition Members will be a constructive force in helping him to meet the challenge of arguing for greater resources and ensuring that they are properly spent. Let me finish on the Secretary of State, who is not a man I knew a great deal about. In fact, I get the sense that he is not a man that many in the armed forces knew a great deal about before he took his job. I look forward to working with him constructively, particularly on the future of the submarine programme.

This is a time for seriousness—for serious people and people who are able to establish a grip over their roles. In various roles, I have briefed a newspaper occasionally and ended up with a story, sometimes in The Sun and sometimes in the Daily Mirror. But I have looked at the way in which the Ministry of Defence has been run over the past couple of months, and, although I welcome the fact that the Secretary of State has apparently intervened directly to save some military dogs and is personally cutting down on the Chancellor’s ability to use military flights, I question whether this shows that he is spending sufficient time ensuring that our equipment programme is up to scratch in a way that will be effective for the nation. He still has a window of time in which to prove himself, but he needs to do so in short order.

[Dr Julian Lewis]

It is very kind of the hon. Gentleman to give way at this late stage. May I just say that I, for one, want to give the new Secretary of State the benefit of every possible doubt, because what we need at this moment in time—the debate has really brought this out—is someone who is going to have a bare-knuckle fight with the Treasury to get the money we need for defence? The fact that he may not have much of a background in defence is not the main issue. The main issue is whether he will fight for money for defence and whether he can win that fight.

[John Woodcock]

It is, absolutely. I suppose it remains to be seen whether the tactics he has so far adopted continue and are effective. We will be as supportive as we can in ensuring that that is the case. I wish that the Secretary of State were here so that I could say this to him in person. I do not know what his other commitment is, but this has been a really important debate with many important contributions, and he would do well to listen to what has been said this afternoon by colleagues on both sides of the House.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Walney Excerpts

Monday 27th November 2017 Commons Chamber

[Gavin Williamson]

My right hon. Friend always speaks with a high degree of common sense and truth. I pay tribute to him for the work he has done for the Ministry of Defence. I agree with his assessment, because ultimately a Government will be judged on how they defend the nation.

[John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)]

Maintaining capabilities is as important as creating them, so how much will it cost to upgrade the nation’s docking facilities now that it is necessary to refuel all the Vanguard submarines, which was not originally planned, alongside deep maintenance to the Astute class? Who will pay for that?

[Gavin Williamson]

We are working with our industrial partners on that, including Babcock, and looking closely at what the costs will be. I am unable to reveal those costs to the House at this moment, but that body of work is continuing.