Water: National Grid

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Wednesday 28th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to facilitate the establishment of a national water grid.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, our water White Paper set out the challenge of ensuring resilient and sustainable water resources in the face of increasing pressure from climate change and population growth. We need to use existing water resources more efficiently, develop new sources and build connectivity across the network. Water companies are already joining up sources of supply to build resilience. We are working closely with Ofwat and the Environment Agency to encourage further connectivity and to promote bulk water trading.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, by 5 April over half the country will be subject to drought orders. I know that the Minister understands the gravity of the situation but perhaps I may press him further. Will he and his departmental colleagues, as a matter of priority, bring forward a national plan—whether it is called a network or a grid, I really do not mind—so that for the future all parts of the country have an adequate water supply?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

As my noble friend is aware, much has already been done by water companies to improve interconnectivity. My noble friend asked about a plan. We are encouraging water companies to include provision for better interconnectivity in the next price review round, which is due to complete in 2014. This is potentially much more cost-effective than creating a national grid and it will help to address the problem of imbalances in water availability across the country. We need Ofwat to get the incentives right so that water trading is economically attractive for water companies.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I welcome the statement made by the noble Lord a few hours ago in this Chamber, when he indicated that any proposals to secure additional water supplies from Wales would go ahead only with the agreement of the National Assembly as water is a devolved matter. That being so, will he also confirm that there will be a Barnett consequential for the expenditure undertaken as a result of the Bill passed last night that would be relevant to Wales?

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[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The noble Lord made a valuable contribution to last night’s debate. The point I was making concerned the construction of new reservoir capacity, rather than taking water from existing reservoirs, and I think I should make that clear. I am not fully briefed on how the Barnett formula might apply in respect of the Bill which this House passed last night and any arrangements that might be made with Wales, so I cannot help the noble Lord on that point. However, I shall write to him if he will allow me to do so.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, is not one of the more obvious benefits of our EU membership the fact that we have been forced to spend at least £65,000 million, or £65 billion, on three EU water purification directives when there was nothing wrong with our water before? No one was getting tummy ache. Would not that sum now be useful for infrastructure and supply?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

No, I cannot accept the noble Lord’s premise. The Government owe it to all consumers to make sure that the water is of the highest standards and there can be no derogation from that obligation. The noble Lord is quite right that infrastructure costs money, but the water companies can be incentivised to provide just that.

[Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer]

My Lords, what importance do the Government give to some of the work being undertaken at, for example, the University of Leeds on the development of water-free washing machines and at other institutions on water-free lavatories? Is not the effort on finding ways of using much less water worthy of a great deal of investment?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My noble friend makes a very good point, indicating that water efficiency is one of the key strategies which it is in all our interests to pursue, particularly at this time when drought threatens a good deal of the country. That and water capture and storage are strategies which individuals and businesses can undertake for themselves.

[Lord Lea of Crondall]

Does the Minister recall that the last time the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, invented a statistic regarding the water directive—in this case, £65 billion—he got his arithmetic wrong, as he subsequently acknowledged, by a factor of 1,000? Does the Minister think that the same is likely to apply on this occasion?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I cannot possibly comment on the accuracy of the mathematics of the noble Lord, Lord Pearson. He has placed a figure before the House and, of course, is accountable for what he has suggested, but I cannot comment on it.

[Baroness O’Cathain]

Will the noble Lord tell us whether progress has been made on the things that we can change now rather than the things that will take 20, 30 or 40 years? For example, what progress has been made on stopping the leaks, and what proportion of water is actually lost through leakage every year?

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[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, as part of the Government’s drought summit, water companies are committed to reducing water losses and increasing leakage detection. It is important to say that leakage cannot be eliminated altogether. Even new pipes can leak, but water companies have leakage targets to move them to a sustainable, economic level of leakage. Leakage has fallen by nearly 40 per cent since the mid-1990s and is expected to fall by a further 3 per cent in the next three years.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, what progress is being made on the proposal to build a new large reservoir in the Abingdon area—I think that it is in Oxfordshire?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I know nothing of that proposal so I am not in a position to answer the noble Lord’s question. Reservoir capacity is important, of course, but even more important is the opportunity to connect up existing river resources and water resources so that they are available across water companies. That is the point that I wanted to make in response to my noble friend’s Question.

[Earl Cathcart]

My Lords, we pipe and store gas and oil around the country, so why not water? The Roman aqueducts did it 2,000 years ago. The Minister previously cited the difficulty in getting water uphill. Quite so, and no doubt the £30 billion or so cost of establishing a grid is also an issue. Why cannot we use wind turbines to push the water uphill? Is not the provision of water a far greater and essential benefit to one and all, rather than getting a few people to Birmingham a few minutes earlier? We should get our priorities right.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, it is possible to achieve both but it is not possible to make water flow uphill as my noble friend rightly points out. I would use the analogy that the amount of money that my noble friend is prepared to spend to put petrol in the tank of his motor car is a great deal more than he would be prepared to pay to fill his bath with water. Some of the difficulty comes from the fact that we as a country do not recognise the importance of water and value it enough.

Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Tuesday 27th March 2012 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That the Bill be read a second time.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, in December, the water White Paper, Water for Life, set out the many challenges facing the water sector: how much water we have available now and in the future; the impact on our natural environment from water and sewerage management; and the issue that this Bill is designed to address, which is keeping bills affordable.

We have seen in the south-west the long-term impact that investment in sewerage has had on customers’ bills. Ofwat’s price control regime balances the need for such investment with the impact on customers’ bills. However, we should remain alive to the arguments for different approaches when circumstances require, whether to address the exceptional consequences of past decisions, as with the south-west, or a case such as the Thames tunnel, where the sheer scale of such a project dwarfs the ongoing business of a water and sewerage company.

The Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill contains two simple spending powers, which will enable the Government to implement two policies that the Chancellor set out in the Autumn Statement, both of which are designed to reduce the costs of infrastructure investment falling on water and sewerage customers. The Bill will allow us to fund South West Water to keep its household customers’ bills down now and to provide contingent financial support for the proposed Thames tunnel in London.

Clause 1 is a general power to enable the Government to give assistance to water companies for the purpose of reducing charges payable by customers. The only purpose for which we currently plan to use the power is to reduce the bills of South West Water’s household customers by £50 a year until the end of the next spending review. We believe that the circumstances that they face are exceptional. For years they have faced the highest water bills in the country as they have paid the costs of the £2 billion invested in infrastructure post-privatisation. The benefits of this investment include improved water quality, reduced leakage, cleaner beaches and better bathing water, but the costs have been borne solely by South West Water customers and their bills have risen as a result. We believe that the Government should help to correct the historical inequity. We do not want another such inequity to arise.

London’s sewerage system is operating close to capacity —and the situation will only get worse with population growth, urbanisation and climate change. Even after construction of the Lee tunnel and improvements to sewage treatment works, around 20 million tonnes of untreated wastewater will still be discharged in a typical year from combined sewer overflows into the Thames. This is unacceptable on environmental and health grounds, and it needs addressing.

The proposed Thames tunnel offers the most timely, comprehensive and cost-effective solution for dealing with sewage discharges into the River Thames in London. Alternatives have been considered, including by the Thames Tunnel Commission, which is chaired by my noble friend Lord Selborne. However, none of the alternatives identified during the extensive studies carried out over the past decade has been found to swiftly and adequately address the environmental and health objectives for the Thames tideway while at the same time complying with our statutory obligations.

This includes alternatives such as a western tunnel combined with sustainable drainage systems. Implementing sustainable drainage on the scale required to address the combined sewer overflows east of a western tunnel would be hugely disruptive, expensive and unlikely to meet the environmental objectives. The existing sewerage system into which a western tunnel would discharge has limited spare capacity, so the western tunnel would spill more often and lead to significant odour problems, due to the amount of time sewage would be stuck in the tunnel. In-river treatment would not prevent untreated sewage from spilling into the Thames. I do not believe that the public want raw sewage to continue to spill into the Thames. Thames Water’s public consultations and complaints to the Environment Agency confirm this. However, we recognise that this is an expensive project.

Clause 2 will allow the Government to provide financial support for exceptionally large or complex works on water or sewerage infrastructure, such as the Thames tunnel. We are willing in principle to provide contingent financial support for exceptional project risks where this offers best value for money for Thames Water customers and taxpayers. However, as a Government, we will want to be assured that, when offering this contingent support, taxpayers’ interests remain a top priority. We are therefore working with Ofwat, Infrastructure UK and Thames Water to make sure that the financial structure for the proposed tunnel includes safeguards to minimise the likelihood of government support being called on. We believe that simply having the power available will help us to maximise private sector investment in the tunnel and keep the cost of its financing down.

I am aware that concerns were raised in another place about the breadth of powers in the Bill, and desire was expressed for greater parliamentary scrutiny ahead of government spending. The powers in this Bill are by no means unusual in their flexibility for future circumstance, nor do they remove the need or opportunity for proper parliamentary scrutiny of government spending plans in the usual way. Tough decisions always need to be made about the use of government money. I am sure that any future financial assistance under these powers would inevitably be the subject of much debate internally in the Government, in Parliament and with the public.

In the case of the south-west, there were years of campaigning and then the independent Walker review, which identified this as a set of exceptional circumstances. Financial assistance would never be given to water companies on a whim. However, exceptional circumstances do and will arise, as we have seen with South West Water and the Thames tunnel. As I said, we will need investment in infrastructure to keep our water supply resilient. We do not know what the future holds and we want future Secretaries of State to be able to use the power where genuinely necessary.

I reassure noble Lords that any public financial support for the Thames tunnel or similar projects will be tightly controlled. In fact, both clauses allow full terms and conditions to be attached to financial assistance. A £50 reduction to South West Water’s charges will be governed by a funding agreement to ensure that it is transparent on customers’ bills and that South West Water will not benefit from administering the payment.

Some noble Lords may be disappointed that we have only today—tonight—to scrutinise the Bill, although it is a small and, dare I say, perfectly formed Bill. The scope of the Bill is limited to financial assistance and, consequently, it has been certified as a money Bill. However, the department’s plans for a wider water Bill are well known and we aim to publish that bigger, more substantial draft Bill for Parliament to get its teeth into in the coming months. That Bill will contain the other legislative reforms promised in the water White Paper. I beg to move.

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[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who are here and who have contributed to this debate at an unsociable hour, although that has not affected the quality of the contributions, nor the vigour with which they have been presented. I just say to the noble Lord, Lord Knight, that there seemed to be a bit of an inconsistency between the case that he presented and the case where he was listening to the judgment of the noble and absent Lord, Lord Berkeley, on this issue. I welcome his broad support for the Bill. Clearly, he recognises that the Government have to act. We are under pressure from the Commission to clean up our act, as were the previous Government. If that is time-sensitive, then the Government have done the right thing by bringing the Bill forward to enable this project to go ahead at the first available opportunity.

The quality of the debate has not been affected by the lateness of the hour. It reflects well on this House that it is capable of scrutinising legislation at any hour. I have here a fistful of sheaves from the Bill team and I shall do my best to answer all the points that have been raised. The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, was in a particularly interrogative mood, as he often is. If I miss out any points, I hope that noble Lords will forgive me, and I shall certainly ask the Bill team to write to noble Lords on particular issues if I fail to address them.

The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, mentioned the water White Paper and said that there was a missing chapter on water efficiency. I would not like him to think that that was the case because water conservation is covered in every chapter of the water White Paper. In particular, chapter 6 covers our plans for water efficiencies in homes and businesses. It is a very important part of our strategy for dealing with the ever increasing demands for water in this country. He asked questions about whether there could be some abuse of these financial powers in, say, an election year. Any financial assistance would inevitably be the cause of much debate. There can be no disposition of government money without Parliament being very much on the alert. We know in the case of the particular move to fund the south-west that there had been years of campaigning and an independent water review to address this matter. We consulted publicly and made an announcement in the Budget specifying who could benefit from financial assistance, the duration and the reason why the Government were making the payment.

Noble Lords have asked why there is no sunset clause. We made it clear that we should leave it open for the Government to have the flexibility to offer similar support to future projects, should the case be strong, but such support could not be given without proper scrutiny in Parliament. I can give that commitment. What about the rest of the commitments to legislate that the Government made in the water White Paper? We intend to publish a draft Bill, as I said in my opening remarks. We have made considerable progress in drafting the Bill. It is important to get the legislation right. The advantage of a draft Bill is that we have an opportunity for further scrutiny before the Bill comes before the House. This will be a strategic shift in the water industry, in which I think Parliament will want to be fully engaged. I make no apology for what has been suggested that there has been an unnecessary delay in the implementation of the water White Paper.

I turn to particular points that have been made about South West Water and the welcome by my noble friend Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer and my noble friend and namesake Lord Taylor of Goss Moor. The independent Walker review examined the situation in the south-west and suggested a number of different models by which government should address the issue. We sought advice from Ofwat on the most effective way of dealing with it and considered all the other options in detail. The particular method has been chosen because it will be the most effective in dealing with the inequity that the whole measure is designed to address. My noble friend Lord Taylor asked again about how the funding might continue, which came up in a number of speeches. The Treasury has agreed that Defra can, if necessary, make a call on reserve to fund this policy through the current spending round. Defra will then need to bid for funding for the next spending review in the usual way.

Several noble Lords called on us to review social tariffs. As noble Lords will know, the matter is in the hands of individual water companies. The reasoning behind this is that companies know the most effective way to deliver a social tariff policy in their area. The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, asked about this, and there were questions from my noble friend Lord Taylor on the same subject.

I turn to the question of the Thames tunnel, which is the second part of the issue. The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, asked whether CLG or Defra would take the decision on planning. CLG is the planning authority under the Planning Act, but decisions on development consent for wastewater infrastructure of national significance may be taken jointly by the Secretaries of State for CLG and Defra, based on Planning Inspectorate recommendations. In this case that would seem the most likely process, but I cannot give a categorical assurance.

Questions were asked about state aid. Contingent financial support will need to be state aid compliant—and it is contingent finance to support investment that we are offering. Investors will want to know this before they invest. Our initial analysis of state aid rules is that this contingent support may require us to notify the European Commission. If appropriate, we will make the necessary state aid notification this summer.

There was much talk of the infraction risk, and of how much any fines were likely to be. The noble Lord, Lord Knight, speaking the words of the noble and absent Lord, Lord Berkeley, was very exercised about this. I understand that it is a serious matter, and that there is a case that we must be able to answer. We are working with the Commission. It is in our interest and that of the Commission to make sure that by building the Thames tunnel we will ensure that London’s river is clean and pollution-free. That is the purpose of the exercise. We are working with the Commission to make sure that it is aware of our commitment to achieve that.

The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, rightly wanted assurances about the devolved position of Wales. There have been no discussions about the construction or enlargement of any reservoirs in Wales. Indeed, none of the water companies, which all produce a 25-year outlook, includes any construction programme for a new reservoir in Wales. I do not suppose that the noble Lord is volunteering their construction; his questioning was not along those lines. However, I assure him that no English company at this stage anticipates this construction—and clearly any such arrangement would have to be approved by the Welsh devolved authorities. I hope that devolution will make these matters better between the two Governments, and between water companies and the Welsh Government.

I would hope that that is the future, and it must be one of the benefits of devolution which can protect the interests of the Welsh and the English in their relationships on this matter.

My noble friend Lord Jenkin talked about the transport of supplies for the construction of the Thames tunnel. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, asked me a Question on this matter, so I know that he is also interested. This House may have been one of the instruments that has reinforced this view on Thames Water because it is considering how it can limit the impact of construction traffic. The company intends to use the river wherever practical. We should remember that not all the construction sites are on the river, but quite a large number of them are. Barges can be very efficient. It is certainly the Government’s view that the river should be used. My noble friend referred to Blackfriars Bridge. That is entirely a riverside construction. It is not just the 406 million tonnes of excavated material that have to be moved; it is also the construction materials that need to be brought on to site. The Thames tunnel briefing, which I hope my noble friend has had a chance to see, makes Thames Water’s intentions about the transport of freight quite clear.

My noble friend Lord Fowler expressed particular concern about the Carnwath Road site and the change from the Barn Elms site to Carnwath Road. It is a planning matter. As he will know, planning prefers brownfield sites, such as Carnwath Road, as opposed to Barn Elms, which is not a brownfield site, but it will be considered by the Planning Inspectorate. Thames Water will need to justify this choice of site and the route of the tunnel as part of its application. It will need to submit an environmental statement describing aspects of the environment significantly affected. I hope that helps my noble friend, although it does not give him a reversal of the decision.

My noble friend Lord Selborne has considerable experience on this matter and expressed a number of concerns. I would like to address particularly his concern about costs, which was echoed in what the noble Lord, Lord Knight, had to say. Inevitably, there will be some variation in cost. It is rare for projects to come in on price and on time. This is a complex and extremely large project. Ernst & Young is currently employed by the department to provide financial advice on the most suitable and appropriate financing mechanism to deliver the proposed Thames tunnel that is fair to customers of Thames Water and to UK taxpayers. Ernst & Young is advising on structuring incentives into the financial mechanisms that will help drive desirable behaviours by those delivering the project to help ensure the effective management of project costs.

My noble friend Lord Selborne asked how the Environment Agency decided which combined sewer overflows were unsatisfactory. The EA assessed all 57 CSOs that discharge into the River Thames to identify which were having an adverse environmental effect. It looked at the frequency and volume of discharges, whether they were close to recreational areas, the number of complaints and the reports from other organisations operating on the Thames. Thirty-six were classed as unsatisfactory and therefore need to be addressed, and 34 discharge directly into the middle and upper reaches of the Thames in London.

My noble friend Lord Selborne and the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, asked what a tunnel would deliver. It would reduce the number of these spills from about 50 to 60 times a year to just three or four times a year, and the estimated volume of discharges from about 18 million cubic metres to just over 2 million cubic metres, improving water quality, with benefits for wildlife and river users. It would also ensure that we continue to meet the UK’s obligations under the urban waste water directive.

The noble Lord, Lord Smith of Finsbury—I nearly called him my noble friend—welcomed this project. The Environment Agency, with which he is very much engaged, is part and parcel of the team that is hoping to bring about the Thames tunnel project. I am very grateful for his support this evening, and for the contribution of my noble friend Lord Selsdon, whose experience in this matter I had not been aware of until he made his contribution to this debate.

There was some concern about the money getting to the right customers. South West Water is very much aware of the need to take account where metering and use are not necessarily directly connected because of multiple occupation or other situations. The money is designed to be per household and South West Water is intending to do that.

I have done my best to run through the questions asked. I hope noble Lords will understand if I did not pick them all up. I will do my best to address those that I have failed to do so by letter. Meanwhile, this may be an appropriate moment to thank all the staff and the Bill team for their support in seeing this debate through. We expect to have to work all hours. We have to share that expectation with a great many other people, and I am very grateful to them and I am sure the House will share in that regard.

Bill read a second time. Committee negatived. Standing Order 46 having been dispensed with, the Bill was read a third time and passed.

Drought

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Wednesday 21st March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to protect communities, food producers and habitats from the threat of drought in England.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, droughts happen in the natural order of things, and the Government’s reaction to the current dry spell is being planned for in detail with the Environment Agency and water companies. The Government recognised the risks early on and, since May 2011, the Secretary of State has held three drought summits to agree actions to manage the impact of drought. Water companies are working closely together to conserve public water supply, and government and key sectors are meeting regularly.

[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

I thank the Minister for that reply. The effects of drought are now too apparent in some parts of the country. For example, the River Kennet has in part dried up already. Does that not reinforce the urgency of taking forward the Government’s proposals on water abstraction? The contents of the Queen’s Speech have been even more pre-briefed than today’s Budget. Why has Defra failed to land a slot for a water Bill that would mean that we could get on with urgent action on water supply?

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[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, it is not for me to anticipate the contents of the Queen’s Speech, and certainly not to use the opportunity of this Question to do so. Noble Lords will know that next week we will consider a water Bill that deals with time-sensitive matters and which I hope will have the concurrence of the House. The noble Lord will have to wait to see whether the water White Paper is translated into legislation in the Queen’s Speech when it occurs.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

My Lords, will my noble friend comment on reports in the press recently about the proposal for a main line to be run alongside the high-speed link connecting to Birmingham and beyond, which would bring water down from the north-west to the drought-stricken regions of the south-east?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My noble friend anticipates a Question on the Order Paper about a national grid for water. Of course, all those matters have been considered by this and other Governments. It has been found that the interconnectivity of water systems is far more cost-effective than building a mainline grid. Water is extremely energy-expensive to pump around. Unfortunately, it does not naturally flow from the north of England to the south-east.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, on that point, has much work been done on the use of operational and non-operational canals to assist in that transfer?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Yes, it has, and to a limited extent they can be used in the interconnectivity projects between water companies. The companies are sharing a great deal and have invested considerable amounts. There has been a recent investment in the north-west of England to relieve a drought there by pumping water from Wales.

[Lord Naseby]

Is my noble friend aware that in 1976, when a severe drought affected eastern England, comprehensive work was done even on reversing the flow of rivers. Could he usefully dust down those files and look at all the work that was done in that period?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I can assure my noble friend that these things are constantly under review. I do not know that any particular major projects will alleviate this drought period, but it is important that we make the most of the natural links that we have and the best use of the water that is available to us.

[Lord Tomlinson]

Will the Minister reflect that if he is going to brush down the files from 1976, to accompany them he must remember that not only did we have a Labour Government but we had Denis Howell? What plans does he have to resurrect the spirit of Denis Howell?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

How can noble Lords be assumed to have forgotten? I seem to remember that when Denis Howell was appointed Minister for Drought, it did not stop raining.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

Will the Minister ensure that water companies do not close existing storage capacity for developing housing and other things? In particular, will he get in touch with Thames Water, which is closing storage capacity in Reading?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I do not know the details of the particular case to which the noble Lord refers, but it is certainly useful to be advised of that. Thames Water is not in as acute a situation as some of the other water companies. Indeed, it is helping out water companies in Essex by transferring water from its area to Essex. This co-operation between water companies is a very good strategy, and one which the Government are anxious to encourage.

[Lord Plumb]

My Lords, may I confirm what the Minister has just said? I was a member of Denis Howell’s committee, and I confirm that it rained the moment we met and did not stop for weeks. One hopes that if we can form a committee again, the same sort of thing will apply. I congratulate the Government on recognising the importance of water, its usage and its conservation. It is more crucial than people in this country perhaps realise. However, would the Minister agree that in the interest of food security, irrigation is essential? It is going to be a major problem in many areas. I realise that the Environment Agency has the responsibility for maintaining the main arterial rivers. Many of these have been neglected in recent times, which is a matter of importance that needs to be considered. However, restricting water for irrigation for certain food crops would be catastrophic and would result in crop failure.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

It is very good to have my noble friend volunteering yet again to deal with this matter on behalf of us all. There are considerable concerns in agriculture, particularly about establishing crops. However, farmers are used to dealing with the weather. They are by nature adaptable creatures. They are changing cropping programmes in some parts of the country, and they will change them in others. It is far too early to say what impact this may have on the food supply. All I can say is that the NFU and the Environment Agency are involved in the weekly bird table meetings that are held on this subject, and that is an extremely effective mechanism for getting the flexibility that we need to deal with this problem.

Food: Waste

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Tuesday 20th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Selborne]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what measures they intend to take to prevent food waste being sent to landfill.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, to reduce food waste and prevent it going to landfill, we are helping consumers through WRAP and its “Love Food, Hate Waste” campaign by working with industry via the Courtauld commitment and by aiming to launch in May a new voluntary agreement with the hospitality and food service sector. We intend to work towards our other waste review commitments, including developing the evidence base and exploring the role of incentives in reducing waste and managing it sustainably.

[The Earl of Selborne]

My noble friend lists a number of perfectly worthy measures, but is it not totally unacceptable that at the moment 16 million tonnes of food waste ends up in landfill—we must remember that it gives off methane, a very potent greenhouse gas? Should we not be looking at food waste as an energy source and encouraging caterers and commercial food interests to get their act together and ensure that none of this waste ends up in landfill?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am grateful to my noble friend for mentioning the catering industry, because the hospitality and food service commitment, which we are pressing across government, is directed expressly at that sector. Ministers in other departments are ensuring that the Government are taking up the commitment, and Members in another place and in this House are working to ensure that Parliament’s own catering is signed up to this commitment.

[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

My Lords, the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, is right that 16 million tonnes of food waste is way too high and that the potential for energy production is great. The Minister gave a fine answer in respect of catering, but can I press him on the subject of energy production, particularly from anaerobic digestion? What will Government offer to incentivise people in catering and elsewhere to put their food waste into that energy production?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The noble Lord is right: anaerobic digestion is a very good process for converting food waste. I was trying to emphasise that the most important aspect of food waste is to eliminate it at source, if you can. However, where food waste arises, AD is a very effective method. Indeed, we have an AD strategy plan, which includes a £10 million loan fund to set up new capacity. WRAP offered the first loan of £800,000 to a Wiltshire-based company, Malaby Biogas, in January 2012. Other actions to promote innovation in the AD sector, particularly on a small scale, are very much part of our strategy.

[Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer]

My Lords, for those of us lucky enough to have gardens or allotments, the incentive to compost is obviously much greater, but what incentive does the Minister offer to households without either of those to separate out their food waste?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

This is part and parcel of the CLG process of looking for weekly collections. In partnership with local authorities, we in Defra hope to encourage food waste as a separate waste stream. Certainly that has been our policy, and many of the local authorities that are putting in bids to the CLG are doing so on the basis of a separate food waste collection.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, what discussion are Her Majesty’s Government having with the devolved authorities in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland about co-operation on this matter and learning from each other’s experiences?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

In many of these cases, we in Whitehall can learn considerably from the devolved authorities. I am in contact with my opposite number in Scotland. I hope that that helps the noble Lord. Indeed, the department works very closely with the devolved authorities. There is much that we can learn from each other.

[Lord Vinson]

My Lords, traditionally and historically, food waste went to pigs. It seems extraordinary that millions of tonnes of food eaten by humans one day cannot be fed to pigs the next. Will he look at the restrictions and regulations that prevent this natural, common-sense and historically highly efficient usage of a waste product, and see whether they can be revised?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I thank my noble friend. In fact we are doing just that; Defra has commissioned a desk study, which is being operated by FERA at the moment and is due to report this summer. All noble Lords will appreciate that people have anxieties that we need to assuage. We cannot afford the repeat of the foot and mouth outbreak of 2001, as I think all noble Lords understand.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that food waste is one of the three main constituents of biomass, which, along with branches of trees and imported pellets, it seems many power stations are being encouraged to burn? What incentive is there for these companies to burn this food as an alternative to anaerobic digestion? From my discussions with the industry, there seems to be no incentive at all.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The Energy from Waste programme is subsidised and incentivised. It is up to local authorities to decide the best channel for their food waste. I mentioned before that Defra sees huge advantages in the use of anaerobic digestion as an efficient method of converting food waste into energy.

[Lord Laming]

My Lords, has Defra taken an interest in the impact of unnecessarily short use-by dates on a lot of food?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

A great deal of work has been done on food marking. Some of those labels merely tell the shops when the product should be taken off the shelves, and it is really more for stock control. Some great strides have been made. The reduction in food waste will depend very much on consumers being aware that the use-by date still means that you can freeze the product and that it is still healthy to eat. By informing the consumers about the practical information that is available to them, we can save people throwing away food that is perfectly healthy.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall]

My Lords, following on from the question of the noble Lord, Lord Laming, does the Minister agree that a great many people now growing up do not understand either how to buy or to prepare food, that often food is wasted because people are driven to believe the sell-by dates that are put on to packaged food, and that they have no mechanisms for understanding how to use their own common sense in discerning whether food is fit for consumption? Will he ask his colleagues in the Department for Education to look into educating pupils better about that matter?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am sure that we could all learn good household skills. It is never too late to learn about some of these very basic matters. I agree with the noble Baroness that a lot of food waste is caused by careless shopping and food stocking. This applies not just within the household but within the commercial and catering trades. That is why we are trying to tackle this problem on all fronts.

Agriculture: Schmallenberg Virus

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Wednesday 7th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to counter the spread of Schmallenberg virus in the United Kingdom.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, 121 farms in England are affected by the Schmallenberg virus. They indicate the extent of a late summer 2011 infection. All of them are within the at-risk regions for midge incursion during 2011 from continental Europe. We understand the anxiety of farmers as they get into the lambing season. We will continue to monitor and test for disease across the UK to determine the spread of disease during that time. Meanwhile we are working closely with our European neighbours to find out more about the disease.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, while recognising that farmers, vets and Defra are working very closely, are research establishments across the UK fully engaged in finding a remedy? Are all research programmes in the many European countries affected being co-ordinated with our own in the United Kingdom?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, good collaborative networks operate in Europe with our European colleagues. We are working with them and the Commission to develop an investigatory research programme to answer questions as to the disease’s origin, transmission and future prognosis. We have strength in depth in vector research at Pirbright and virus characteristics at the Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratory Agency at Weybridge, which will play a key role in this.

[Lord Clark of Windermere]

My Lords, has the Minister received any assessment—

[Baroness Trumpington]

My Lords, sorry, am I competing with somebody else? Forgive my ignorance but I do not know how this virus gets around. Is it through biting the animals, laying eggs or what? Families are involved in the birth of lambs. Are they—particularly the young women of the families—at risk of catching this terrible bug?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

No, I can reassure my noble friend that the family of viruses from which this infection comes poses no direct threat to human health. As for how the infection occurs, it is midge-transmitted: the midge infects the sheep or cattle. We know now that that occurred in the summer or early autumn of last year. Indeed, we know that the last possible date on which it might have occurred was 13 November. We know that from the weather prediction and patterns that we have studied to find out more about how this infection arrived in the country.

[Lord Clark of Windermere]

My Lords, I know when to be gallant. In view of the Minister’s assurance that there does not appear to be any risk to human health, and in view of experiences over recent decades, will he ask the Food Standards Agency and the Health Protection Agency to monitor the disease particularly closely?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I can assure the noble Lord that we have already done that. We have had risk assessments by the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control and the UK Health Protection Agency, both concluding that there is a very low likelihood of any risk from this disease to human health.

[Baroness Masham of Ilton]

I declare an interest as I have three flocks of sheep and we are coming up to lambing. What progress is being made on a serological blood test?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That is exactly what is being investigated at the moment. We do not have a blood test at present, but it is clearly going to be very important. This is a very new virus, and we know relatively little about it except the background from which it comes. We have very strong indications as to how it has come here. The work is ongoing, but I assure the noble Baroness that we are working hard to get a blood test.

[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

My Lords, the spread of this virus is clearly of concern to farmers in this country, and I welcome the update that we have had from the Minister. Does he agree that the department’s risk assessment on climate change suggests that this sort of disease, borne by midges, will become more common, and that how it is handled now will set a pattern for the future? On the basis of openness and transparency, will he agree a simple request that the Chief Veterinary Officer urgently provides a briefing to interested Peers so that the House can be updated regularly?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am most happy to do so. I welcomed this Question because I was aware that this matter must be of concern to a number of Peers. This is an opportunity to inform the House on the subject, and I give the assurance that a “Dear colleague” letter goes to all interested Peers on this matter.

[The Duke of Montrose]

I declare an interest as president of the National Sheep Association. Will all the reported cases be required to have laboratory confirmation of the disease? Are the laboratories able to cope with that, and does the Government’s scenario predict a seasonal peak in the next few months?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I have already indicated to the House that there is a season for the initial infection and therefore the consequent impact on young lambs and calves. There will be a seasonal pattern. I agree that we may have to deal with similar infections in future, so it is important to have proper precautions in place.

Dogs: Microchipping

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Wednesday 8th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hoyle]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will introduce the compulsory microchipping of dogs.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, we are close to finalising a package of measures to tackle irresponsible dog owners, and intend to make an announcement soon. In putting the package together, we have considered and set out the pros and cons of various approaches towards compulsorily microchipping dogs. The final package will cover future government handling of the issue, as well as plans to improve standards of dog ownership.

[Lord Hoyle]

I thank the Minister for that reply. It is very helpful in itself. Taking the old adage that there are no bad dogs, just bad owners, microchipping would certainly make for more responsible dog ownership. It would also make it easier for dogs that have strayed to be found by their owners. It would cut down on the number of stolen dogs. As a Government who are seeking popularity, it would be highly popular, as 83 per cent of the public who have been surveyed support this.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord for his support for what may indeed be included in the package. It might help the House to know that the cost of rehoming each stray is £1,100. The economic cost to this country of irresponsible dog ownership is enormous, let alone the human damage that can be caused by out-of-control dogs.

[Lord Low of Dalston]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that attacks on guide dogs are now running at over seven a month? The person who first drew this to my attention said, “What on earth are they doing putting a tax on guide dogs? Whatever next?”. But actually it is a very serious problem. It can mean a vulnerable person being left alone, in need of assistance, and without a dog for a considerable period of time. The dog may need to be treated, retrained or even withdrawn from service altogether. As each guide dog costs £50,000 over its lifetime, this has huge financial implications. Will the Government consider making attacks by dogs on assistance dogs a punishable offence in the same way as attacks on human beings?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I assure the noble Lord that we take this very seriously. It is an increasing problem. As the noble Lord said, there seven attacks a month on guide dogs. Sometimes, of course, the dogs carrying out these attacks are out of control; they are not even on a lead. The whole purpose of the policy will be to try to encourage responsible dog ownership. I am very pleased with the contribution the noble Lord has made to the issue by asking his question today.

[Baroness Parminter]

My Lords, the number of stray dogs in this country has risen to 126,000 and has been steadily increasing for the past four years. Does my noble friend agree that compulsory microchipping would help local authorities with the spiralling costs of kennelling, and help them reduce the number of healthy dogs they have to put down each year, which was 6,000 in 2011?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Yes, my Lords, I drew the House’s attention to the enormous economic cost of stray dogs; £57.5 million is spent by charities and local authorities in caring for and finding new homes for stray dogs. That is part of the thrust behind our proposals, which, as I say, we will be announcing shortly.

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that if all puppies were microchipped before they were eight weeks old, it would ensure that they could be traced to their breeders, which would prevent much of the iniquitous practice of puppy farming?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

This is certainly a proposal that we are looking at, and I thank the noble Countess for her contribution.

[Lord Renton of Mount Harry]

My Lords, perhaps I may suggest to my noble friend that the Government consider very carefully before insisting on the compulsory microchipping of dogs. Many dogs take badly to having a chip in them; they get very sore and so forth. Surely anyone who cannot control a dog should not have one; that should be the course.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am not sure that the respondees to the consultation share my noble friend's view on the matter, and I am not sure that the Government share it, either. We see microchipping as one measure we can take to address an increasing problem. The cost of stray dogs is something that we have discussed. The human cost of dog attacks is another matter that the House should bear in mind in considering these measures.

[Lord Grantchester]

My Lords, the House has heard many times before from the noble Lord that these matters will be dealt with soon. May I press him again on when “soon” may be? I was told that microchipping had already started and that six databases were up and running. The information on the databases will be useful only if it is up to date and accurate. What plans do the Government have to ensure that this will happen?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Some 58 per cent of dogs are already microchipped on a voluntary basis. The noble Lord asks about timing. When I say “very shortly”, I do mean “very shortly”, but the timing is not within my gift. I have clearly flagged up the possibility of an expansion of microchipping in the responses that I have given today, and we are working with everybody to make sure that this will happen.

[Baroness Byford]

My Lords, will the new compulsory system apply to dogs coming to this country? If not, what will the Government do about that?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Yes, my Lords, the pet travel scheme requires that all dogs coming to this country are microchipped.

[Baroness Fookes]

My Lords, as a former chairman of the RSPCA, perhaps I may point out that it has been the wish of that society and many others that there should be compulsory registration for dogs, as this is the only way to deal with manifold problems. May I remind the noble Lord—although he will probably not know—that in the House of Commons I tried twice to get this introduced, well over 20 years ago?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

This House always provides noble Lords with the opportunity to fulfil their ambitions, and it may be that my noble friend will achieve just that.

EUC Report: Agriculture

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Monday 6th February 2012 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, it is my personal pleasure as well as my governmental responsibility to reply to the debate. I join others in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Carter of Coles, and the committee, as well as those advising it, on the thoroughness of their inquiry and the subsequent report on innovation in EU agriculture. It really is a first-class report which has informed this debate, as I hope it will the wider public.

I was pleased to be able to attend part of the seminar in November. As I indicated then, and as noble Lords have generously pointed out, this subject is very much up my street. It is an important one, too, and I hope that the response from Defra, which is full and detailed, does credit to the quality of the report. The report will also be useful in reinforcing the Government’s position vis-à-vis their European colleagues, as my noble friend Lord Caithness hopes.

I had intended to start my speech by quoting from the opening paragraph of the introduction to the report. The noble Lord, Lord Carter of Coles, used those words to open his speech today. Mr Paolo de Castro encapsulated the essentials of our current position, and the report is unafraid to present the challenge that faces all policy-makers and innovators in science and on the farm. This debate, too, has risen to the challenge, not least because it has served as an opportunity for us to hear the maiden speech of the noble Lord, Lord Curry of Kirkharle, who brings to this Grand Committee, as he will to the House in general, knowledge, expertise and an ability to inform. This will be of great value to the House on this and, I hope, many subjects. The noble Lord is welcome as a Member of this House. He reminded us, as did my noble friend Lady Byford, that we must not in our enthusiasm for innovation forget the people and the skills that we need in addressing this topic—I hope to come to that shortly.

Many noble Lords pointed out that but a short while ago we saw ourselves as being in a land of plenty, but Sir John Beddington’s Chatham House speech changed all that, showing us the threat that mankind faces from a perfect storm of resource pressures, climate change and population increase. This was followed by the Royal Society’s Reaping the Benefits, which showed how science could provide solutions if we were prepared to take the opportunities that it offered and, ultimately, by the Foresight report, which placed the challenge in a global context. Many noble Lords talked of this, none more graphically than the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington. My own Taylor review was designed to look at the need to provide on-farm solutions here in the UK. The sub-committee not only recognises that but also points to the pan-European dimension of its solution.

At the seminar in November, I was given the opportunity to put forward to the European Commission the Government/Defra position on agricultural R&D and to ask for more information from it, particularly on European innovation partnerships and operational groups. Innovation in agriculture is very important to the UK Government. The Government Office for Science’s Foresight report on the future of farming clearly laid out the global challenges for the agriculture sector. Investment in research and innovation at both national and EU level will play an important role in supporting sustainable intensification and climate-smart food systems that will improve food security for Europe and globally.

If I may talk about one of these systems, my noble friend Lady Byford asked about animal welfare standards as a factor in good farm management, independent of the size of the unit. Animal welfare standards and business efficiency can be mutually supportive. We recognise the concerns about such standards creating a competitive disadvantage; we have had discussions in the House about the egg-laying directive, and I have pointed out that the department is concerned to ensure that the sow stall directive is properly enforced. These initiatives and high standards are something that we in this country are not prepared to jeopardise, but they do not necessarily conflict with the strategy for larger-scale production units.

The Government invest £400 million a year on agrifood research, including collaborative work with industry. As noble Lords have pointed out, that is mainly through BBSRC. Defra itself spends £65 million per annum on agricultural R&D, including animal health and welfare. I will not deny that I wish that as a department we had more, but deficit reduction must be addressed. Meanwhile, I assure the noble Lord, Lord Knight, that we are actively leveraging our limited funding.

This investment is coordinated by the UK cross-government food research and innovation strategy published by the Government Office for Science. The cross-government and research council programme on global food security will be a key vehicle for driving this agenda forward.

Perhaps I may comment on my noble friend Lady Parminter’s view, which she expressed very cogently, about the precautionary principle and how it fits with a policy of innovation. The Government agree with the committee that the precautionary principle remains relevant to decisions on food and environmental safety, but it must be applied sensibly and not as an unjustified barrier to new technologies. The noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, reminded us eloquently about our global responsibility to use technologies to address food supply throughout the world.

I would like to think that we can build on the shared respect for science that has been evident in this debate to move forward in the court of public opinion. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Knight, for his willingness to develop cross-party consensus on these issues.

Through the Technology Strategy Board, Defra and BBSRC, the Government invest in the Sustainable Agriculture and Food Innovation Platform, worth £90 million over five years, which matches funding by industry. It is worth noting that the TSB’s contribution of £50 million to this pot is new investment in innovation. The Government are also reviewing R&D tax credit support for innovation as part of the Dyson review recommendation to boost innovation in Britain.

It might be useful at this point to talk about agricultural skills. Several noble Lords mentioned this, and I shall build on the question that my noble friend Lady Byford asked. The national curriculum review is currently looking at essential knowledge that should be studied pre-16. Studying agriculture should be seen as a front-line activity of central importance to ensure that its relevance to the challenges of food security and sustainable intensification can be supported by a skill base. Lantra, the skills council for the environmental and land-based industries, offers information and careers across the agri sector and determines standards to ensure that qualifications meet both employer and learner needs. I know how important this is. Motivation and enthusing people to enter our industry will be vital if a new generation is to take this agenda of change forward. I should like to point out that in Holbeach itself there is a secondary school, which has now developed academy status, working alongside Lincoln University and the National Food Research Centre—an educational institute—to try to develop this in the heart of perhaps one of the most productive areas of UK agriculture. Therefore, I have first-hand knowledge of what is being done and what can be done on a much broader scale.

However, to tackle the challenges of creating a more innovative, profitable and competitive EU farming industry that can better withstand shocks and recover from them quickly, we also need to work in partnership with other countries in Europe and further afield. This is a factor that runs through the report and was reinforced by contributions throughout this debate. We therefore welcome European Union mechanisms that support this approach, including the European Research Area Networks—ERA-Nets—as well as supporting the Commission in its provision of the joint programming initiatives, or JPIs, of the member states.

My noble friend Lady Sharp mentioned the importance of awareness in the Commission of the need to remove complacency and to invest in innovation. At a wider international level, the UK’s proactive engagement with the Global Research Alliance on Agricultural Greenhouse Gases is an example of where a partnership approach can be used to address common global challenges and add value to our own £12.6 million greenhouse gas R&D platform to identify greenhouse gas mitigation options and monitor them more effectively.

The noble Lord, Lord Cameron, talked about global research partnerships. The Global Research Alliance on Greenhouse Gases includes the USA and Brazil, as well as many EU member states. UK researchers, including those from Rothamsted, which the noble Lord will know well, are actively collaborating with their counterparts in New Zealand and Australia as well as the US. This is all co-ordinated by Defra, which is also collaborating under the sustainable agricultural innovation partnership through the action plan for UK-China co-operation on food security. The noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, reinforced the importance of this global approach to research projects if we are to meet the global challenge of feeding the world.

As we enter the final years of the EU’s seventh research and development framework programme, we welcome the Commission’s recent proposals for Horizon 2020, a research and innovation programme for Europe between 2014 and 2020. Horizon 2020 should play an important role in addressing the key societal challenges that we face today. We are pleased that food security and sustainable agriculture are among the grand challenges to be addressed by the programme. Indeed, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, Caroline Spelman, is due to sign it off today.

EU-funded research must deliver value over and above that of our national programmes, and the impact of Horizon 2020 will depend on the active translation of research outputs as part of effective knowledge-exchange mechanisms. We therefore welcome the aim for Horizon 2020 to cover the knowledge spectrum from fundamental research through to demonstration activities.

Importantly, ambitious CAP reform would provide opportunities for agriculture to become competitive with less reliance on subsidies, releasing funds to encourage the cost-effective delivery of public goods and stimulate innovation in the agricultural sector as it grapples with global challenges to provide sufficient food to feed a growing population in a way that impacts less on the environment. I believe that the current package of proposals will fall short of this aim. I assure my noble friend Lady Parminter that we recognise the need for the identification of funding within the CAP for research and innovation.

We therefore broadly welcome the Commission’s proposal to establish a European innovation partnership, or EIP, for agricultural productivity and sustainability that will bring together relevant actors across the research and innovation chain. We also support the establishment of operational groups—OGs, as they are called—to test out emerging findings and to drive forward the adoption of new ideas and technologies. However, we await further clarification from the Commission on how the EIP networks and OGs will operate in practice and how they are to be funded, and we look forward to working closely with the Commission and others as these proposals are developed.

A number of noble Lords challenged our position on GM. I include my noble friends Lord Caithness and Lady Byford, but it was mentioned in a number of noble Lords’ speeches. The EU controls are the strictest in the world and robust enough to ensure that any approved GM products will be as safe for people and the environment as their conventional counterparts. Although ensuring that safety is paramount, we also need to be open to the potential benefits of GM technology. That is important, given the challenges ahead on food security and sustainability. My noble friend Lady Byford is right in her appraisal of the current proposals. A sustainable resolution of this issue must be based on science and be established across all 27 countries of the European Union.

In its inquiry, the committee has also examined the provision of farm advisory services to support agricultural innovation and competitiveness. I am delighted by this as it featured in my own report to the Government, then in opposition, to encourage greater collaboration between the public and private sectors in funding research and ensuring that a more effective knowledge transfer takes place.

A number of noble Lords mentioned the climate change risk assessment. I see this as an opportunity. Published last week, it presents the very real challenges posed by climate change. The scenario as painted for British agriculture is that there are opportunities within this agenda, but the assessment points particularly to the resource challenges of water. This will continue to be an increasing challenge not only in this country but across the world if we are to increase the capacity of our existing arable soils to produce crops and our grasslands to sustain livestock.

I am pleased to report that, as from 1 January—as noble Lords have mentioned—the new farming advice service will provide advice on competitiveness, nutrient management, climate change adaptation and mitigation and cross-compliance. The provision of the new service, secured by open competition, will be delivered by AEA Technology in active partnership with industry-related bodies such as the NFU, the CLA, the AHDB, LEAF, the West Country River Trust and ADAS. Farmers wanting professional advice will no longer have to ring round dozens of organisations before getting through to the right source. After all, good advice is essential to the running of any business, and this new advice service will make sure that farmers can get the most out of their farms.

I therefore wish to encourage any future industry-led initiatives that will stimulate co-operation between industry bodies, innovation, applied research and the effective translation of science and technology into practice. I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Curry, will be chairing a meeting shortly to encourage the levy bodies, colleges and other stakeholders to work together to deliver innovation. That mission has my blessing.

I have not gone into a lot of detail about something that was mentioned by my noble friend Lady Parminter and the noble Lord, Lord Knight: the reduction of waste in the food chain. I see that as a very important aspect of any strategy to increase the efficiency of the food chain and reduce the needless waste of important foodstuffs. As noble Lords will know, this is also a part of my portfolio. I am working very much towards this end and have the considerable resource of WRAP, an excellent body that has provided advice throughout all of this. My noble friend Lady Parminter also mentioned nutritional and health values in foodstuffs. We should also not ignore the quality of food and its effectiveness in nutritional terms when talking about the capacity of industry to produce food.

It was good to listen to my noble friend Lord Plumb and to have the debate that we are conducting today put into a historical perspective. My noble friend is rightly credited with presiding over this industry in its golden age. I would not describe the future in quite such terms but the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, talked of a renaissance in this industry. I share with him and the committee a sense that we have an opportunity—a renewed opportunity—to address the challenges of the future to build a sustainable and more productive agriculture by the use of science, technology and innovation. The committee, along with our farmers and growers, looks to the Government to provide a lead both here and in Europe to do just that. I thank the noble Lords for their participation in this report; it has served as a very useful catalyst for us to be able to reiterate that objective.

EU: Sow Stalls Ban

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Thursday 19th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lexden]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what information they have about the likelihood of other European Union member states complying with the forthcoming European Union ban on sow stalls.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, the European Commission has sought data on how member states are progressing with complying with the sow stall ban, which comes into force on 1 January 2013. To date, the Commission has not released this information.

[Lord Lexden]

I am very grateful to my noble friend for his comments. Can he confirm that our farmers have invested very substantially to remove sow stalls here? Bearing in mind the current difficulties over another important farming issue, how confident is he that there will be full compliance with the ban on sow stalls throughout the EU by 1 January 2013?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

In this country, as noble Lords will know, sow stalls have been banned since 1999, so my noble friend is right in saying that there has been considerable investment. In the light of recent experience, he would not expect me to be fully confident that other states will be compliant. We can be confident in our own position, as I have said, because we are not prepared to compromise on the welfare of sows, which is why we moved away from sow stalls early. We will not tolerate livestock regimes that compromise animal welfare and we will work hard in Brussels to ensure full compliance across Europe by the deadline.

[Baroness Trumpington]

Is there already a ban on calf stalls? If not, is one included in the ban on sow stalls?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That is a totally separate issue. The sow stalls directive is an individual directive focused on sow care and welfare.

[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

My Lords, this country can be proud of being ahead of the game on banning sow stalls, as we have heard. As a regular customer of Pampered Pigs of Tolpuddle, I know that happy pigs are tasty pigs. But the current problems with eggs, as we have heard, demand a more robust position on enforcement of EU directives. Will the Government give notice now, with almost a year’s notice, that they will take legal action against other countries’ non-compliance as soon as this directive comes into effect so that the Commission can get its ducks and sows into a row?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

As I mentioned before, we have already sought information on this matter. We are knocking at the door, and the Commission has already learnt lessons from the cage ban on laying hens. We have sought early information that it is asking all member states how close they are to compliance. To date, we do not have that information, but we are determined to press on this issue. We are hoping to have on the agenda of the February Agriculture Council a discussion topic on this item.

[Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer]

The “happy pigs are tasty pigs” message is a very forceful one but UK government procurement policy over the past decade since the sow stall method was changed here has not really been got over, either in government procurement or by UK supermarkets to their customers. What do this Government intend to do about procurement policy on UK pork and bacon?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

As my noble friend will know, the framework of public procurement is complex and it is not easy to lay down criteria that are not covered by directives. However, following the sow stall ban, it will be possible to ensure that that is the case. At the Oxford farming conference recently it was said that 70 per cent of pig meat imported into this country would be illegal if produced here under our regime.

[Earl Cathcart]

I hope the Government’s response to the pig directive is more robust than their response to the egg directive. As an egg producer, I am appalled that the Government’s answer to the import of eggs produced in illegal battery cages is not to send the lorry back to the country of origin, not to fine the importer or impound their vehicle, not to destroy the illegal eggs, but to send the eggs for processing into food for sale in the United Kingdom. Why do the Government not see what a devastating effect this will have on the UK’s legal egg industry, which, frankly, is stunned by their feeble response? When we joined the Common Market in 1973, we were promised a level playing field. After nearly 40 years, is it not about time we got one—or might pigs fly?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I have to say I share my noble friend’s frustration if not his anger. The Government have investigated the possibility of taking unilateral action and bringing in a UK ban on imports of eggs and egg products produced in conventional cages in other member states, but I have to inform my noble friend that, given that there are significant legal and financial implications in enforcing such a ban, coupled with practical difficulties in enforcing it, this is not a realistic option.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, are we not entirely capable of deciding our own standards about this sort of thing? Does this Question therefore not remind us of the hopeless fraud of subsidiarity, which indeed it has been since inception? Are the Government aware that under the EU treaties, although individuals and companies can be made to pay Brussels fines by the courts in the countries in which they live or operate, there is no way that a country can be made to pay a fine? Why do we not just emulate the French and ignore this and all similar mischief?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I can assure the noble Lord that the Commission is equally disappointed by the response of some member states on the egg-laying issue, which is why I am perhaps more confident that there will be a grip on the sow stall issue. It has already sent pre-infraction letters to non-compliant countries.

Bovine Tuberculosis

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Tuesday 20th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Krebs]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what scientific evidence they have used in developing their proposals for controlling bovine tuberculosis by culling badgers.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, evidence of the effect of badger culling on bovine TB incidence rates comes principally from the randomised badger culling trial. The scientific evidence from the trial suggests that proactive badger culling, done on a sufficient geographical scale in a widespread, co-ordinated and efficient way and over a sustained period of time of at least four years, will reduce the incidence of bovine TB in cattle in high-incidence areas. It is the Government’s judgment that these results can at least be replicated by a farmer-led cull using controlled shooting. The two pilots will test our assumptions about the effectiveness, humaneness and safety of this method.

[Lord Krebs]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. I should declare an interest as the instigator of the randomised badger-culling trial some years ago. I agree with the Minister that sustained, long-term culling could reduce the incidence of TB in cattle by about 16 per cent, but can he help me with two questions which are puzzling me concerning the Secretary of State’s announcement last week in another place? First, this pilot involves two areas. As a scientist, I know of no statistical technique for analysing the results from a trial involving just two areas, so perhaps the Minister could enlighten me on that point. Secondly, the Secretary of State referred to a wider rollout depending on the results of the pilot. Does that mean that the Government would consider rolling out this shooting policy to the 39,000 square kilometres of the English countryside affected by bovine TB, with the implication that one would end up shooting between a quarter and a third of the UK’s badger population?

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[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for that supplementary question, and I acknowledge the authority with which he raises these questions. The purpose of the pilots is to evaluate the effectiveness of the process, rather than to provide a scientific appraisal of the cull, which is designed to last over a four-year period, and I think that the noble Lord will understand that. At the bottom of this is the fact that we are hoping to monitor the humaneness and effectiveness of a shooting policy before we roll it out, and I hope that noble Lords will agree that that is right and proper. It is suggested that the pilots should be held over a series of areas, rather than one complete area, as that would defeat the object of trying to find areas that are viable. The pilots will cover an area of at least 150 square kilometres, perhaps extending to as much as 350 square kilometres.

[Lord Walton of Detchant]

My Lords, as a young doctor I saw the ravages of bovine tuberculosis, particularly in young children, many of whom suffered spinal tuberculosis with paralysis and infection of long bones. As that type of infection disappeared following the widespread pasteurisation of milk and the screening of cattle herds, is the Minister satisfied that a more extensive badger cull would significantly reduce the potential risk of the spread of this infection into the human population?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The answer to the risk of bovine TB being transferred to humans is, as the noble Lord mentioned in his question, the pasteurisation of milk. Milk is pasteurised to make it safe for human consumption. We are concerned about the incidence of the disease, which is crippling for cattle and, of course, for badgers, but I think that I can reassure the noble Lord that the purpose of this programme is not the fear of its transfer to humans.

[Baroness Mallalieu]

My Lords—

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[Baroness Mallalieu]

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware of the desperation of my neighbours on Exmoor, most of whom are under a restriction and are losing cattle at every retest? They are frustrated with science because year after year they have been promised that if they will only wait a little longer there will be an effective oral vaccine. They are still being told that. Is the noble Lord also aware of the welcome for the courage that has been shown by the Defra Ministers in this Government in finally starting to tackle this problem?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for those comments and I shall convey them back to my colleagues. It is correct to say that, in a 12-month period, in some of the worst areas nearly a quarter of cattle herds are under restrictions. Clearly, that cannot be tolerable. It causes immense stress to farmers, particularly in highly infected parts of the country.

[Baroness Parminter]

My Lords, the estimated costs for policing this eradication programme have risen from £200,000 to £2 million per cull area. What share of those costs will Defra meet with the Home Office and what budget lines will be cut in order to take forward this programme, which may well do more harm than good?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I would not agree with my noble friend’s last comments; I think she is misjudging the situation. I think this is a programme that we have to carry forward. Clearly, we have to allow for policing and Defra has agreed to meet half the costs.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, is the Minister suggesting that this policy is scientifically based and without controversy? Is he not aware that the approach of culling will occasion great consternation among a very large number of people in this country and, therefore, that it is bound to incur costs for the safety and policing of the project?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I think it is very much in the interests of this policy that noble Lords should be prepared to recognise the importance of going ahead with it. I cannot agree at all with what the noble Lord has said.

Thames Tunnel

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Monday 19th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had with Thames Water about the increase in lorry traffic in London caused by the construction of the Thames Tideway Tunnel.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, we have regular contacts with Thames Water on all aspects of the tunnel proposal, including its strategic approach to transport. Details on lorry movements are a matter for the project sponsor, Thames Water, and are included in its current public consultation. Final proposals will be in its planning application, expected in autumn 2012. The planning process ensures that environmental factors such as transport impacts will be considered.

[Lord Berkeley]

I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. He is certainly right that, in its second consultation, Thames Water has reduced the volumes of lorry traffic by half by agreeing to transport the spoil by river, which is about half the total. However, is he aware that in Network Rail’s construction of Blackfriars station most of the materials, not just the spoil but other construction materials as well, are coming in by river? I am sure the Minister will agree that that is very commendable, given the traffic jams around there. What will he do to try to persuade Thames Water to do the same for that very much bigger project, including bringing in tunnel linings, concrete and things like that by river?

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[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, the noble Lord has great experience in tunnelling and engineering, which I respect, and I share his view that the river is a great London resource that should be optimised and used for such occasions. It is important to emphasise, however, that at the moment the project is undergoing a consultative phase. There are guidelines on the use of rail and river for the movement of waste soil, for example, which are already laid down. I hope that any members of the public who have an interest in this matter will make their views known during the consultation period.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

My Lords, is the Minister able to tell us whether he and Thames Water are aware of the great concern of local residents, many of whom I know, about the constant use of their streets in the area? Will there be limited hours of work? Will they have any respite during this work, which I must say is very important for the future of London?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My noble friend is right to emphasise that there are local neighbourhood implications in any project of this size. As I have emphasised, the project is at the moment in consultation and it is very important that people who feel they may be affected make their point of view clear. Thames Water has estimated that there will be around 4.6 million tonnes of excavated material generated in the lifespan of the tunnel’s construction. The management of that lies with the principal contractor, who will have to abide by the planning conditions laid down when planning permission is granted.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe]

My Lords, while I recognise that the planning process is still under way, could the Minister, who is very popular in the House, not agree with the view of my noble friend Lord Berkeley that, in addition to spoil, efforts should be made by the contractors to use the river more than they are doing at the moment? Could he not just simply drop a little Christmas note to them to that effect?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am of course grateful to add to the House’s Christmas cheer, and this is a great opportunity to do so. I think I made it pretty clear that I saw the river as a great resource and that it would indeed make sense to use it for the shipment of materials, but in the end the process really is that Thames Water has to make the application. I have given a pretty strong steer as to what we expect of Thames Water and, indeed, of the contractors.

[Lord Bradshaw]

Does the Minister agree that, in view of the large number of accidents to cyclists in London, including, unfortunately, a lot more deaths this year, he should ensure during the process that a proper risk assessment is conducted on the means of both supplying material and taking it away?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The use of roads is very important, as is the way that goods are shipped. That is a hazard that needs to be taken into account before planning permission can be given.

[Lord Teverson]

My Lords, given the importance of bringing in materials, would the Government perhaps ask the construction authorities and Thames Water to look at the use of Cornish china clay spoils materials? They could be brought to London so that we could have the benefit here, while removing some of the spoils from Cornwall.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, that is an unusual suggestion, which even in my wildest moments I had not anticipated being asked. I am sure that anything that makes my noble friend feel more at home must be a jolly good idea.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his reply and to the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, for suggesting the use of china clay waste—I live in Cornwall and it is dear to my heart. I wonder if I could press the Minister a little further, though. Half the materials may be transported by road, which would mean around 250 trucks a day. The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, has also mentioned the risk of accidents to cyclists and so on. Surely it would be a good idea for a planning condition to be put on this development saying that perhaps 90 per cent of all materials must come by river or rail.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

As I have tried to emphasise, those terms ought to be set in the planning decision. It is not for us at this stage of the process. I have tried to make it clear that there will be consultation, planning and then the award of the contract.