Britain and International Security

Lord Dodds of Duncairn Excerpts

Thursday 2nd July 2015 Commons Chamber

[Michael Fallon]

I have been generous in giving way and I will do so again in a moment.

I want to deal with the particular issues on the domestic front. We are preventing those who have been radicalised from travelling. Last year, the Home Secretary removed or refused, under the public interest criteria, 24 passports of individuals intending to travel for terrorism-related activity. We have given the police new powers to temporarily seize passports at the border. We have put our no-fly list on a statutory footing. The police have issued new guidance to airlines to ensure that vulnerable children travelling on high-risk routes are identified and referred. I accept that, as the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty) said, this needs to be fully co-ordinated across Government, and that is the case. Our world-class security services work day and night to disrupt terrorist plots, and we will continue to give them the investment they need. We will introduce new investigatory powers legislation to ensure that law enforcement, security and intelligence agencies have the capabilities they need to keep us safe from those who would do us harm.

At the same time, we are challenging the extremist narrative, using strategic communications to get out a faster truth to counter the malicious misinformation of our adversaries; joining with internet companies to take down more than 90,000 pieces of extremist material; training over 300,000 people since 2011, including front-line public sector workers, to ensure that they can identify and prevent radicalisation; and excluding nearly 100 preachers of hate—more than any other Government. We are using moderate voices across the middle east and north Africa, and in the United Kingdom, to air a counter-narrative. We spend about £10 million a year with social media and local journalists to encourage millions to reject ISIL’s recruiting slogans. The terrorists should know that every cowardly attack will only harden our resolve. We are in this for the long term and we are determined to win this fight.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

On the protection of the UK as a whole and border security, the Secretary of State will be aware that the border between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic—the land frontier between the United Kingdom and another member state of the European Union—is very open. What measures are in place to ensure that people are not exiting and getting into the United Kingdom there for nefarious purposes? We do not have the kinds of border controls that are present in relation to, for instance, people crossing from France into England.

[Michael Fallon]

I shall certainly look at the right hon. Gentleman’s specific point about the border. We now have a very strong defence relationship with the Government in the south. I recently signed a defence co-operation agreement with my counterpart. There needs to be a north-south partnership as well as an east-west partnership, if I may put it like that.

Military Covenant

Lord Dodds of Duncairn Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Donaldson]

I would be delighted to visit Plymouth to see the community covenant in action. Indeed, we might even bring some of my colleagues from Lisburn to attend.

I ask Ministers, in examining this issue, to bear it in mind that there seems to a be a problem somewhere in the system, with a reluctance to have community covenants in Northern Ireland. I understand that some kind of system is currently in place with 38 Brigade in respect of community covenants. I am happy to write to Ministers on this point to seek some clarity on where we stand.

We now have 11 new councils established in Northern Ireland. They were elected this year and will take on new and extended local government powers from April next year. There is an opportunity for those councils to introduce community covenants, so let us not put any barrier in the way. If there is one, let us examine why it is there and have it removed.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

Perhaps my right hon. Friend can assist me on the role that 38 Brigade plays in community covenant grants. I understand that there could be an alternative way of doing this. How satisfied is he that that would provide a full substitute for the way in which the system operates elsewhere, and what are the inadequacies of that approach?

[Mr Donaldson]

My right hon. Friend puts his finger on the point. Northern Ireland seems to have a slightly different system for the establishment of community covenants than that which applies in other parts of the United Kingdom, which involves a role for 38 Brigade. I have not yet been able to establish why, but there seems to be reticence somewhere in the system about introducing community covenants. Some councils are willing to do this, and we should therefore be encouraging it. I am happy to write to Ministers so that perhaps we can get to the bottom of this.

The Democratic Unionist party supports the full implementation of the armed forces covenant in Northern Ireland. Some problems still need to be ironed out. We would like section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act to be amended to ensure that there is no ambiguity about how the covenant should be implemented by Government Departments and agencies in Northern Ireland. We would like to see the continuation of the Royal Irish Regiment Aftercare Service, and the establishment of a dedicated veterans centre in Northern Ireland. Finally, we would love to see each of the new councils in Northern Ireland introduce a local community covenant to improve relations between our armed forces and the community. I believe that that is what the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland want.

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[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is an absolute pleasure to speak in this debate. My party is pleased to have secured this debate on the military covenant because the issue resonates with a great many people across the whole of Northern Ireland. It resonates not only with those of a Unionist disposition, but with those who are perceived to be of a nationalist disposition. I fully support the motion—indeed it would be difficult not to—but it saddens me not only that it took so long for these men and women to be granted certain privileges and better treatment after returning home from duty, but that still in 2014 those servicemen and women on the British mainland are protected from being disadvantaged in certain areas of life, yet those privileges are not fully extended to servicemen and women in Northern Ireland.

May I also say what a pleasure it was to see the Secretary of State in the Chamber? We very much appreciate his presence.

[Mr Dodds]

I think it is important to put that on the record. Although this has been a short debate, it has been of high quality. The fact that the Secretary of State for Defence and his ministerial colleagues, and the shadow Secretary of State and his shadow Ministers, were here for such a lengthy period is a strong indication of how seriously these matters are taken by the House of Commons and both main parties, and that is deeply appreciated by everyone in Northern Ireland.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his contribution, even though he took the next couple of lines off me. None the less, we are greatly indebted to the Front Bench and shadow Front Bench teams for their contributions.

The Northern Ireland Affairs Committee made recommendations on the covenant. What bothers me deeply is, as Lord Ashcroft noted, how we can ask and expect our brave men and women to go off to wars, prepared to give the ultimate sacrifice, and not extend them any care of duty on returning home.

The inquiry that was carried out in 2012 and published in 2013 found that, owing to devolution, variations exist across the regions of the United Kingdom in how health, housing and educations services are provided. All Members have mentioned exactly what those shortcomings are. I also welcome the fact that—this was mentioned by the Minister of State—93% of the recommendations from the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee have been delivered.

First World War Commemoration

Lord Dodds of Duncairn Excerpts

Thursday 7th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Dr Murrison]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the suggestion. Over the four-year period, there will be plenty of opportunities to mark appropriately those who fell during the great war and those who served and sacrificed. On Monday there will be a delivery of sacred soil from Flanders fields to a memorial garden at the Guards chapel not far from here; a very fitting tribute and one that will bring this country and Belgium—two key players—very much closer together. I hope people will take note of all this, and the whole point is for them to reflect and better understand what happened 100 years ago.

There are those who are asking what the point of it all is, but if we do not do this we risk disconnection from the defining event of our time. There is an opportunity perhaps to balance the “Oh! What a Lovely War”/“Blackadder” take on history that, sadly, has been in the ascendant for the past 50 years. In its place, we will have a richer, deeper and more reflective legacy. But we should acknowledge that some will interpret the centenary in different ways, holding and contributing their own views. Some within that patchwork may discomfort some of us. We may individually or corporately disagree with them but find expression they must. The role of Government in the centenary is to lead, encourage and help make it all happen, while avoiding the temptation to prescribe. It is emphatically not the place of Government in our 21st century liberal democracy to be handing down approved versions of history.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

Will the Minister acknowledge that many soldiers from the Irish Republic, as it now is, served during the first world war? The Republic of Ireland is no longer a member of the Commonwealth, of course, but it is important that their sacrifice is part of all this. Will he join me in welcoming the fact that there are seemingly positive discussions with the Government of the Irish Republic to ensure that, in relation to those who won the VC, the paving stones will be laid in counties in the Irish republic? Certainly that good work needs to continue and we welcome it very much.

[Dr Murrison]

I am absolutely delighted that the right hon. Gentleman has raised that point. As he would expect, we have spent a great deal of time in debate with Dublin on this matter. As I have been going through this work, it has been something of a revelation to me as I have understood fully the great work that Her Majesty the Queen did when she visited Dublin. Ever since then there has been a huge appetite in both countries to improve the relationship between the two countries, which has been extraordinarily uplifting. Of course the Republic of Ireland is engaged in its decade of commemoration, within which falls the centenary of the great war. I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that I have had extraordinarily positive feedback from Dublin regarding their engagement with this period of shared history and I look forward, as part of the legacy of the centenary, to moving the relationship a little further forward, with all the sensitivities that it of course contains. However, I see this very much as an opportunity and I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for raising that point.

Military Covenant

Lord Dodds of Duncairn Excerpts

Wednesday 21st November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Donaldson]

I thank my hon. Friend for raising that case. I was going to allude to it, but I will say simply that it is important that post-traumatic stress disorder and medical conditions arising from military service are given due weight and recognition when military courts consider allegations made against soldiers. I know that this case is the subject of an appeal, so I will not go into the detail, save to say that we on these Benches wish Sergeant Nightingale well in seeking to appeal against the decision made in his case.

The aftercare service provided to veterans of the Ulster Defence Regiment and the Royal Irish Regiment makes an important contribution towards ensuring that those who have served in Northern Ireland are provided with the care and support they need. I hope that the Government will continue to fund and resource the service properly, because it is important. Indeed, I hope that in time it can be expanded to include others.

All that said, we on these Benches have a concern about the implementation of the military covenant in Northern Ireland, and it is a concern expressed by others too. There are service personnel and veterans who are not getting the support they need in Northern Ireland. I speak of Northern Ireland because I am not mandated to speak of other areas of the UK, but I am sure that other right hon. and hon. Members might mention instances in their areas of where the military covenant might not quite be delivering yet for service personnel and veterans.

I want to give the House an example of an individual, who I have been trying to help, who has found himself in great difficulty. James Burns is a young man from Mallusk in County Antrim, in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea). James was formerly a lance corporal with 40 Commando. He had been on operational service in Afghanistan, returned to his family in Northern Ireland and developed post-traumatic stress disorder. Sadly, as a result of his illness he turned to alcohol. As a result of the lethal mix of alcohol and his medical condition, he developed violent behaviour and got himself into trouble, harming himself and those around him. Only a few months after his military career ended, he is sadly now in prison serving a sentence.

I just feel that there is something wrong with a system in which a soldier comes home from operational deployment to his family and, within months, finds himself serving a prison sentence for behaviour that he and his family would argue might have been beyond his control because of his medical condition. I am not trying to excuse what James has done, and his family do not seek to do so either. What they are seeking is help for that young man. He has a young family, and they do not want to see his life completely ruined. There is clearly more that we can do to help young men like James—and, indeed, young women—who develop post-traumatic stress disorder as a result of the traumatic experiences that they have had to endure while on operational deployment.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

The case to which my right hon. Friend refers is known to me, and I too have spoken to the father of the young man in question. I totally endorse what my right hon. Friend has said: the family’s plea was for help. They could see what was happening and they really wanted help. It is incumbent on us in the House and those in the Department to ensure that that help is made available to families such as these; they deserve it.

[Mr Donaldson]

I concur with my right hon. Friend’s comments.

In August this year, I wrote to the Minister for the Armed Forces, the right hon. Member for South Leicestershire (Mr Robathan) at the Ministry of Defence to raise this case. I understand that, owing to issues relating to data protection legislation, he was unable to respond in as much detail as he might have wished. His advice was that James should

“contact the welfare service at the Service Personnel and Veterans Agency.”

He provided a helpline number for that service. He went on:

“I would also strongly encourage James to raise any medical concerns…with his GP…James may also wish to consider contacting the charity Combat Stress”.

I am sure that there is nothing wrong with that advice, but my point is that there should be someone in the system who can get alongside people like James, who are not in a position to make the appropriate judgment calls, and to help them and their families get access to the level of care that they need. That advice was given before James ended up in prison.

Returning to my remarks about the aftercare service, I believe that that model could be expanded. As a starting point, I would like to see it expanded in Northern Ireland to incorporate those service personnel and veterans who continue to serve in our armed forces, whether in the Royal Irish Regiment, the Irish Guards or any other armed forces unit, and who reside in Northern Ireland. Why should Northern Ireland get such special treatment? We should do so because we have a special problem when it comes to the implementation of the military covenant.

That special problem is section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998—the equality legislation that formed a key element of the Belfast agreement. The section places a statutory duty on public authorities to promote equality when carrying out their functions in relation to Northern Ireland. Unfortunately, officials in various Government Departments in Northern Ireland who might be able to offer support to veterans and service personnel say that they are unable to give any form of preferential treatment.

Let us bear it in mind that the military covenant requires only that action should be taken to ensure that a veteran or a member of the armed forces should face “no disadvantage” as a result of serving or having served in the armed forces. In other words, they should be placed in the position in which they would have been, had they remained a civilian. Unfortunately, however, section 75 is being used in a way that can prevent full implementation of the military covenant in Northern Ireland. We have a problem, but there are a number of ways in which that problem could be overcome.

In a submission to the Defence Committee of this House, of which I have the good fortune to be a member, it was made clear by the current Northern Ireland Minister for Health, Social Services and Public Safety, Edwin Poots, that there was a problem. Paragraph 36 of the Defence Committee report, “The Armed Forces Covenant in Action? Part 1: Military Casualties”, states:

“The provisions of section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 prevents the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety (DHSSPS) and the Health and Social Care (HSC) sector in Northern Ireland in providing war veterans with priority over other individuals with respect to healthcare treatment.”

This is recognised as a problem, as far as the implementation of the military covenant in Northern Ireland is concerned. The “Report of the Task Force on the Military Covenant” of September 2010 stated that “Service personnel” based in Northern Ireland

“are disadvantaged more than their contemporaries elsewhere…For example, Service families in the province are prevented from identifying themselves as such due to the security situation. This can cause difficulties for partners in explaining their career history to prospective employers and for Service children in obtaining the necessary support in schools, among other issues.”

The report, in making some recommendations, states:

“One possibility currently under consideration is to extend”

the Northern Ireland aftercare service

“to cover all veterans based in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland”.

We Democratic Unionist Members would be happy to see veterans of the UK armed forces who reside in the Republic of Ireland covered by the aftercare service, so that they get the help they need when they need it. I hope the Minister will give careful consideration to the proposition that the aftercare service should be extended to include not only veterans living in Northern Ireland but serving members of the armed forces who live in Northern Ireland and, for whatever reason, may require treatment or access to other services for themselves or their families.

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[Mr Francois]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend’s grandfather and his service in that epic battle, and I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for being so fleet of foot with his intervention.

As my hon. Friend has taken a close interest in this ship, he will know that HMS Caroline, a light cruiser, was built in 1914, measures 128 metres and was capable of a top speed of 28.5 knots. She is the last surviving warship of the battle of Jutland and before decommissioning was the second oldest ship in the Royal Navy. Her parts are 85% original—which is more than can be said for some Members of this House—and she is the only vessel in the world from the time of the great war still to have its original engines. A recent National Heritage Memorial Fund grant of £1 million, supplemented by £100,000 from the Northern Ireland Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, will enable urgent repairs to be carried out on the vessel. We very much hope that she will be open to paying visitors by the centenary of the battle of Jutland in 2016 and, together with the Titanic centre, will be a focus for tourism around Belfast’s great maritime history.

[Mr Dodds]

The Minister mentioned his previous visits to Northern Ireland. He will be permanently and for ever welcome in Northern Ireland as a result of the good news about HMS Caroline—the Prime Minister announced it but the Minister followed up recently. This has been an excellent example of working together between Whitehall, the Northern Ireland Executive and my colleague Arlene Foster, Belfast city council and the Friends of HMS Caroline. This fantastic news has been warmly welcomed throughout Belfast and Northern Ireland, and we say well done to the Government.

[Mr Francois]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his kind words. I have to report to the House that there has been a leak, because my speech says, “This has been an excellent example of practical co-operation between the Ministry of Defence, the national museum of the Royal Navy and the Northern Ireland Executive.” He also rightly mentioned the friends group. In all seriousness, this is one where everybody got it right. It is proper and appropriate that HMS Caroline remains in Belfast, and I hope to be able to visit her at some point in the near future. So I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his kind words and the spirit in which they are offered.

In more recent times, the contribution of those who served alongside the Army in the former Royal Ulster Constabulary has also been remembered, most notably through the awarding of the George Cross to the RUC. I also pay tribute today to the work of the Royal Ulster Constabulary George Cross Foundation and the Northern Ireland Police Fund, which look after former members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary and current members of the Police Service of Northern Ireland so well. In the same vein, I should like to pay tribute to the veterans of the Royal Irish Regiment and its home service battalions and the Ulster Defence Regiment. It is for them that the bespoke Royal Irish aftercare service, to which the right hon. Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) rightly paid tribute, is in operation. Funded by the Ministry of Defence, that important organisation has supported a client population of up to 63,000 veterans in the delivery of psychiatry, physiotherapy and welfare casework. I will undertake to look at his suggestion as to whether that service could be extended to other members of the armed forces in Northern Ireland, but I must enter the obvious caveat that that is subject to resource constraints. So we will look at that, but standing at the Dispatch Box this evening I cannot guarantee a positive outcome.

Such proud traditions of service continue right up to the present generation. I, too, should mention the sad death of Corporal Channing Day, who grew up in Northern Ireland and joined the Army in 2005. Corporal Day, who served with 3 Medical Regiment, died alongside Corporal David O’Connor, of 40 Commando, after being injured on patrol in Helmand province on Wednesday 24 October. The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning) had the privilege of attending her funeral service, which was said to have been the largest that the small church had seen in some 400 years. I pay tribute to Corporal Day and Corporal O’Connor this evening, and in doing so I echo a number of the tributes that have been paid by the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues tonight.

In terms of current operations, I should also like to mention the personnel of 204 field hospital, who are shortly about to deploy from Northern Ireland to Afghanistan to serve as part of the role 3 hospital at Camp Bastion and to provide other medical services to troops in theatre. I recently had the privilege of visiting Camp Bastion and the hospital, and I laid a wreath to commemorate those who had fallen in operations in Afghanistan.

I should now like to turn directly to the armed forces covenant. As the House knows, its key principles are enshrined in law in the Armed Forces Act 2011. I am proud to say that the Government published the covenant in May 2011. In essence, its principles are: that those who serve in the armed forces, whether regular or reserve, and those who have served in the past, and their families should face no disadvantage compared with other citizens in the provision of public and commercial services; and that special consideration is appropriate in some cases, especially for those who have given most, such as the injured and the bereaved. The covenant extends to the armed forces community, which is defined as serving personnel, including members of the reserve forces; veterans; and their families. I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his generous tribute to the reserves as well as to the regulars.

Armed Forces Personnel

Lord Dodds of Duncairn Excerpts

Thursday 10th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Nick Harvey]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. We will take it away and give it some serious consideration, and I shall come back to her and the House in due course. We will need to reflect on that point.

As I said, the armed forces covenant has to be an all-society and bipartisan effort, if it is to be recognised and respected, and if it is to endure.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

On the point about the principles and practical application of the military covenant applying across the board, does the Minister agree that it has to apply in all parts of the United Kingdom? Will he therefore join me in supporting efforts to ensure that, through legislation, the devolved regions are required to implement and follow through on the military covenant?

[Nick Harvey]

We certainly want the covenant operating, in practice and effect, across the whole UK. The armed forces are drawn from, and stationed across, the whole UK, and it is certainly our view that this should be a whole-UK effort as well.

Unfortunately, owing to the fiscal situation, we have had to make some difficult decisions to balance the defence programme and to begin building the formidable, adaptable and sustainable armed forces that the country will need for the future. I regret to say that this has also affected the pace and sequencing of measures to improve the welfare of service personnel, their families and veterans. I know that some of the decisions required to bring balance to the defence programme directly affect people—for instance, decisions on pay and allowances, and the decisions to reduce the size of the armed forces establishment. I greatly regret that we have had to take some of these measures, just as I regret the need to cut the defence budget as a whole to contribute to deficit reduction, but that is the reality of the situation the country is in.

Armed Forces Bill

Lord Dodds of Duncairn Excerpts

Tuesday 14th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Robathan]

Unfortunately, as the Members on either side of the hon. Lady—the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) and the shadow Secretary of State—will understand, I cannot speak for the Ministry of Justice. It would be beyond my remit. May I also say that she spoke for longer than I have yet achieved? Don’t worry, I’m working on it.

New clause 13 relates to armed forces advocates. Advocates are an excellent idea, and in UK Government Departments and the devolved Administrations they face in two directions. They ensure that their own Department’s policies take account of the special needs of the armed forces community, and they communicate their Department’s perspective to my officials and external stakeholders.

I turn briefly to new clause 14, on the ombudsmen. I pay tribute to the parliamentary and local government ombudsmen for their work. I do not think any of us doubt the important role that they can play in helping members of the armed forces community, and they have welcomed the familiarisation events that my officials have organised. However, the new clause is unclear about what exactly the ombudsmen are intended to do, and we are not minded to accept it. The Government will continue to work with public bodies and local authorities to implement our commitments, and we will encourage them to help to remove the disadvantage faced by service people and afford them special treatment where appropriate. The ombudsmen have a vital role to play, but it is not the one described in the new clause.

Finally—[Hon. Members: “Hooray!”] Yes, finally, I come to the Opposition’s new clause 17. Once again, the concept outlined in it is perfectly reasonable. I want, just as much as the hon. Member for West Dunbartonshire does, a world in which those who make policy take into account the needs of members of the armed forces community as a matter of routine. The best way of ensuring that we avoid problems of disadvantage is to prevent them from happening in the first place. The issue is how to achieve that. We must consider whether the right course of action is to create a legal duty to have regard to certain matters, or to adopt a more practical approach. In the Government’s view, placing a general duty on all public bodies and Ministers in the preparation of all policy would be unhelpful and unfocused. It would lead to more of a box-ticking culture and a cottage industry of assessments. As I have said throughout the debates on the Bill, we are interested in results and want the armed forces community to be looked after better, but that does not involve box-ticking.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

I agree with the Minister that results and outcomes are the most important thing, but with reference to the earlier discussion on devolution, how will he ensure that all servicemen and women and ex-servicemen and women are treated equally in all parts of the United Kingdom? There may be some resistance at devolved level, particularly in Northern Ireland where vetoes are in operation.

[Mr Robathan]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a good point, and I know that he takes the matter very seriously. We did not put forward the devolution settlement, of course—that was done by the previous Government—but we are working with all three devolved Administrations to try to ensure that there is no disadvantage to any ex-service person. However, I absolutely take on board his point and the particular circumstances that he mentions.

Rather than the system set out in new clause 17, I would prefer one in which I and my ministerial colleagues across Government continue to work with public bodies to ensure as far as possible that they take account of the armed forces covenant in their preparation of policy. Much progress has already been made, and the imposition of a new statutory duty would not be of benefit.

The Government look to the annual report to be a powerful, flexible tool to focus Parliament’s attention on the key issues of the time. I fear that the Opposition’s proposed amendments would make that task more difficult and impose a package of unnecessary processes. [Hon. Members: “Hooray!”] I have only another 300 pages to go, but I shall leave it at that, and allow the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd to wind up.

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[Thomas Docherty]

The Minister shakes his head. I understand that there might be some vacancies coming up at the Department of Health shortly. I think that he might be up for promotion, so I could not possibly comment on whether he would be on the Front Bench next to the Secretary of State for Health—although the Defence Secretary is a GP, of course, and would be eminently suitable as a Health Secretary, if such a vacancy were to come up. However, having to wait until 19 July—the last day before the recess—is frankly not a comfortable position to be in.

I understand why the Ministry of Defence did not wish to make an announcement during the period of purdah for the Scottish elections. When the right hon. and learned Member for North East Fife had a debate in the House on RAF Leuchars in January, the Minister of State made it clear that he did not wish to do anything that might upset the election results—I should point out to him that putting that decision off did not do the Lib Dems much good in North East Fife. However, we are now well past the Scottish elections. There is no particular reason why the Government could not come to the House now and announce the decisions that we know they have made.

The purpose of my new clause is to ensure parliamentary oversight of the decisions made by the Ministry of Defence. As I said earlier, we are talking about a unique set of closures. We have probably not seen anything like it since the days when Denis Healey was a Minister for the armed forces and we reconfigured and abandoned our positions east of Aden. Now, however, the decisions are being driven entirely by the Treasury.

The purpose of new clause 1, which thankfully I will not read into the record, is not to affect the way in which the Ministry of Defence gathers information. It does not seek to make the process more transparent or, as the Minister said earlier, to tie the hands of the Government so that they cannot carry out these processes. The new clause proposes that, once the Ministry of Defence has determined which bases it wants to close or realign—for example, by switching their use from the Royal Air Force to the Army, or, as we read in Scotland on Sunday at the weekend, by switching the Condor base in Arbroath from the Royal Marines to the Army—the decisions would be subject to two conditions. First, the Secretary of State would be required to lay a report before the House setting out not only his rationale for making the decisions but the weighting he has given.

Those colleagues who have attended the Adjournment debates on these matters here and in Westminster Hall will have noticed that there has been inconsistency between the views expressed by the various Ministers in the Ministry of Defence about what weighting is being given to each of the criteria: the Secretary of State, the Minister of State and the other Under-Secretary of State—he is the Minister for aviation, as far as I can tell—seem to have different views. One Minister will tell us that the finances are paramount; another will say that defence needs come first; yet another will tell us that the RAF’s needs are the most important, while another says that the Army’s needs are the priority. Then we get back to the arguments about the socio-economic arguments and the wider impacts of the decisions that the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) has mentioned. Those are all valid arguments, and the Ministry is right to consider the socio-economic factors, the financial costs to the Treasury and how best a base can be recycled for use by another service. However, that all needs to be done in a transparent and coherent manner.

[Mr Dodds]

The hon. Gentleman is making a powerful case. He referred earlier to the unique context in which he is proposing his new clause. Does he not regret the fact that a Bill such as this was never introduced under the Labour Government? We have suffered base closures in Northern Ireland that had a serious impact on the local communities, yet none of these considerations was discussed at the time, despite the best efforts of some of us to point out the consequences. I know that the hon. Gentleman cannot go back in time, but will he acknowledge that that is the case?

[Thomas Docherty]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his intervention; I know that he takes a keen interest in the armed forces. He is right to say that the previous Government did not get everything right, but I am not sure whether a Bill was ever introduced to put this process on to a statutory footing. I think that the idea is relatively new. I first came across it when, as part of the British-American Parliamentary Group, I visited the Pentagon last September. The process was explained to the delegation at that time; I think that it has been in place there for about 18 years. It is possible, therefore, that previous Governments were not fully au fait with how the system has worked in America, and that could be why we have not had this debate before. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will acknowledge that the closures that took place in Northern Ireland were, thankfully, driven by the peace process and by the leadership of the then Prime Minister and members of parties that are present today. That is obviously different from the situation today, in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer is calling the shots—please pardon the pun—on the Ministry of Defence.

Under the new clause, the Secretary of State would compile a report setting out what weight he was giving to each of the criteria, which might be quite mixed. Having had a chance to review the report, a future Defence Select Committee might wish to invite the Secretary of State to appear before it and to scrutinise it, although I cannot bind any such Committee to do so. The report would then be subject to a straight-up-and-down vote in the House. There would not be an option to cherry-pick individual bases; it would be a straight-up-and-down report, as they have in the United States. If the House really felt that the Government had got it wrong, it would send the matter back and ask the Government to reconsider.

--- Later in debate ---

[Angus Robertson]

I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman because that is the crucial question. The information was viewed as essential by previous Governments. Why? Because it informed us about the impact of MOD policy making on the nations and regions of the UK. That was why the figures were collated in the first place and why the answers were provided to MPs. Members asked questions about the information because we thought it was important, and the Hansard record will show that those questions were asked by MPs of all parties.

The information is not just important in Scotland, Northern Ireland or Wales but should be a matter of concern to people throughout England, too. They need to understand what impact MOD policy making is having on their part of the country. The figures should inform us of that. Should they lead all decisions? Of course not, but they should inform policy decisions.

[Mr Dodds]

We are talking about the publication of information and statistics that were previously published and are published elsewhere across the world. Such statistics are published on other matters, not just defence. Surely no one can argue against the hon. Gentleman’s central theme, which is that we should know the impact that this vast area of expenditure has on the regions and nations of the United Kingdom.

[Angus Robertson]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a point that everybody should understand. Providing the information is not difficult. Governments here have done it, and Governments elsewhere around the world do it. Frankly, we would be in dereliction of our duty as parliamentarians if we did not try to inform ourselves of how the Department that we are trying to hold to account is spending our constituents’ tax money. How that informs our political priorities is a totally different matter, but the coalition parties made an express commitment to everybody in the United Kingdom that they would seek and deliver transparency. When it comes to defence statistics, they have reneged on that.

This is an opportunity for both Conservative and Liberal Democrat Members—and Labour Members if they have found their conscience on the issue—to understand that this is an important problem that is easily remedied. The new clause would allow that to happen, as it would force the MOD to provide and publish the statistics that we all deserve. That is why, unless the Minister agrees to publish the statistics, I will force a Division on this important issue.

[Mr Robathan]

Having listened to the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson), I have to say that I thought his indignation was completely synthetic. What is important is how the money is spent, not how statistics are gathered, and I will put on record what we feel.

The Ministry of Defence has no plans to reinstate the publication of annual estimates of regional defence spending or the employment effects of that expenditure. The Department decided to stop the compilation and publication of those statistics three years ago. Although the statistics were valuable in giving national and regional employment context to defence spending, the data did not directly support MOD policy making and operations. Furthermore, the compilation of the series depended on external sources that had not been updated for some years. The MOD had been struggling to maintain the quality of the statistics even to a basic level. To reinstate their compilation would cost the Department about £500,000 in the next four years.

The purpose of the defence budget is to maintain the armed forces so that they can contribute to our nation’s security—a nation that includes, I am glad to say, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Every pound that the MOD spends must contribute to the security of the United Kingdom, and it gets doled out not on a regional basis but on a defence-needs basis.

[Mr Dodds]

I stand as a member of a Unionist party in Northern Ireland that is proud to be part of the United Kingdom, but this is not about being part of the UK. It is about the information that is available to Members of Parliament and the public. Surely the Minister should recognise that distinction.

[Mr Robathan]

Information on employment is quite readily available with a little bit of hard work, but I am afraid that we must consider the cost of compiling inaccurate statistics. The previous Government took their view, and we support it. Decisions on where personnel are based and which contracts are let to which firms are based solely on what is best for the armed forces and the defence of the realm. It is the duty of Government to ensure that the defence budget is spent wisely, maximising the resources available on the front line and ensuring that every pound counts.

Support for UK Armed Forces and Veterans

Lord Dodds of Duncairn Excerpts

Thursday 3rd March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Donaldson]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his contribution, and I am sure that the Secretary of State is listening carefully to what has been said on the subject. If he has never benefited from the music of the Royal Irish Regiment band, I suggest that he find an opportunity to do so; “Killaloe”, in particular, is a very popular choice back home.

As I bring my remarks to a close, I want to touch on just one other subject: pensions for our armed forces personnel. My hon. Friends and I are concerned about the proposal to link pensions to the consumer prices index, rather than the retail prices index. That proposal will have an enormous impact on the former service personnel who rely on their armed forces pensions in retirement. It will result in their pension entitlement being reduced significantly during their years in retirement. We ask the Government to look again at what they are doing on the issue.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

My right hon. Friend makes an extremely important point. Changing the inflation link by using the CPI will reduce pensions over the long term. It could cost people tens of thousands of pounds in income. It is particularly invidious given that the CPI does not take proper account of housing costs, which are a vital element for veterans and ex-service personnel, so I entirely endorse what he says and hope that the Secretary of State will take that on board.

[Mr Donaldson]

I thank my right hon. Friend for that comment.

I would like to make another point that has been raised before in the House and is the subject of early-day motion 484: the question of the rank that a soldier holds at the time of his death and the impact on the pension paid to his family and surviving spouse. There is a rule that pensions on promotion are payable only after a new rank has been held for a year, which means that the families of some of our armed forces personnel who have been killed on active service have received a pension below the level that is consistent with the rank held at the time of death. I am thinking, in particular, of the case of Sergeant Matthew Telford from Grimsby, who was promoted to the rank of sergeant in June 2009 and killed that November. His family were paid a pension below the level that would have been payable to that rank.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

May I begin, as others have, by paying tribute to our armed forces and servicemen and women, particularly those from our part of the world, the 1st Battalion the Royal Irish Regiment and the 1st Battalion the Irish Guards, who are currently serving in Afghanistan, but also to everyone who has given valiant service both in Afghanistan and in previous theatres of operation? Those of us who represent Northern Ireland constituencies perhaps have more reason than most to value the armed forces, and to put on record our admiration for them, because, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) pointed out, we owe them so much in for the current peace process. Although some people may go around claiming the political credit for that, I think the greatest credit goes to our security forces in the Army, the Ulster Defence Regiment, the police and the reserves, who have held the line and protected innocent men and women. Although there is so much temptation now to revise history, the truth should be clearly told: they were the ones who defended democracy and brought about the conditions for the current political progress and peace in Northern Ireland.

I wish to thank everyone who has participated in this very good debate, especially those who have been here throughout the proceedings. In moving the motion, my right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley said that this was not a party political issue and mentioned the tone of the debate, and that has been reflected in today’s contributions. I welcome the fact that the motion is supported by the Government, as well as by other hon. Members and other parties in the House. I, too, pay tribute to the sincerity and integrity of the Secretary of State and his Ministers, and of the previous occupants of their offices. We all recognise that they are doing their very best in difficult circumstances for our armed forces, and that needs to be recognised.

As has been said, our purpose in tabling this motion was simply to continue to highlight and put on the record our support first and foremost for our armed forces. We should not underestimate how important it is to our servicemen and women, particularly those in theatre battling the enemy, to know that Parliament and Members of Parliament are spending time not only recognising their service, some of the difficulties they face and the challenges we all face, but putting on the record our deepest gratitude for and appreciation of what they are doing. We sometimes say that things have already been debated—this issue was debated on 16 February—but it is well worth spending as much time as possible on this issue. What is more important than issues of life and death and war to our servicemen and women?

In my first contribution at Prime Minister’s questions in this Parliament, I raised the issue of the military covenant. I asked the Prime Minister right at the outset of a new Parliament and a new Administration

“to give a categorical assurance to our troops that they will always get the equipment and resources that they need on operational duty, to our servicemen and women returning home that they will always get the help and advice that they need to return to civilian life, and to our maimed and wounded that, despite all the budgetary pressures, they will always get the care and compassion that they need and deserve, for however long it takes”.—[Official Report, 2 June 2010; Vol. 510, c. 433.]

My party, like many right hon. and hon. Members from all parties, takes that very seriously indeed.

We have heard many excellent contributions from Members on both sides of the House. My right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley moved the motion extremely eloquently. He mentioned that 20% of the reserve forces currently serving come from Northern Ireland. That illustrates the contribution that Northern Ireland men and women are making to the war effort and it should be borne in mind. People have rightly mentioned the voluntary nature of service and it needs to be pointed out, again, that there has never had to be conscription in Northern Ireland, even during the second world war. That is a measure of the support there for the armed forces. My hon. Friend the Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) made an excellent speech in which he talked about the close association of people in Ulster with the armed forces. That is illustrated by the service of people in his constituency office and it comes across day in, day out, not only in an appreciation of the work that the Army and the armed services did on the streets in Northern Ireland to maintain the peace and to defend democracy and life and limb, but in the number of people in Northern Ireland with relatives who served or are serving in the armed forces.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley also said that we need to meet the needs of veterans—not only those who served many years ago, but those who have served in current conflicts. We have heard about the big society, and my right hon. Friend mentioned the issue in relation to the Royal Irish Regiment band. It may seem relatively trivial, but it is an important aspect in recruiting and raising money for charitable purposes for servicemen and women.

The Secretary of State talked about the measures that the Government have introduced since taking office: the doubling of the operational allowance; the rest and recuperation rules; the university and further education scholarships for children of those killed; the pupil premium; and the action taken on mental health. I welcome what he said about the 24-hour helpline and the extra money, but we need to ensure that there is continued monitoring of mental health and that servicemen and women are kept in touch with over the years so that they do not drop out of the system and are not forgotten or left behind. I also welcome his commitment to look into the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) about housing and the weighting that servicemen and women should be given in that regard.

The hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), who spoke for the Opposition, highlighted the previous Government’s actions. I commend the previous Government, as did some hon. Members on the Government side, for what they did in, for example, producing their Command Paper. The hon. Gentleman acknowledged that there were deficiencies, especially with housing, but progress was made during the previous Parliament in recognising that those who have served deserve special treatment, particularly in the area of mental health.

The hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) spoke very passionately. He has great experience in this field having served, as we were reminded, in Northern Ireland and as a company commander. He knows at first hand what it is to comfort and care for his troops and he reminds us of the dedicated service of so many in the armed forces in Northern Ireland over the years. He rightly asked what the nation requires of our troops, and talked about the courage that they display going into battle and the physical sickness that they sometimes feel as they anticipate what might come. His point about what the nation requires of our troops is pertinent, as is the return question: “What do they expect from our nation?”

My hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) has a very good track record of supporting our servicemen and women. He recently took part in raising significant amounts of money for Help for Heroes, as he has for a number of years, through personally doing sponsored walks and organising other charitable activities. I pay tribute to him for that. He mentioned that the UK armed forces are the best in the world and we all subscribe to that. He, too, dwelt on the military covenant in his comments.

The hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell), who speaks so often, so eloquently and strongly in defence of our armed forces, talked about the covenant and said we should not be too prescriptive. He also paid tribute to the Royal British Legion for keeping this matter on the agenda. He made a very good point about war widows and the need for identification, as well as making good points about housing and education.

[Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)]

The right hon. Gentleman talks about prescriptiveness, which was a theme of the Opposition’s. We agree with the deputy Chief of the Defence Staff, the Adjutant-General, the deputy Chief of the Air Staff, the Second Sea Lord, the chairman of the RAF Families Federation and the Forces Pension Society that prescription and justiciable enforcement of a military covenant are not appropriate.

[Mr Dodds]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. On the military covenant, we all agree that the help that is delivered is what really matters. That is the crucial point, as has been emphasised by Members across the House. We note what the Prime Minister has said, and I know that the Royal British Legion’s letter on this point has been mentioned, but I think clarification is needed of what is meant by “properly referencing” the covenant in law. I take the Secretary of State’s point about definable rights and justiciability, but I think that the way forward is to get the Royal British Legion and others who are interested together with the Government to hammer out a way forward that all parties can agree. That is the key point and I urge the Government to take that step.

I acknowledge the contributions of my hon. Friend the Member for Strangford, the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile), my hon. Friend the Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea) and the hon. Member for Filton and Bradley Stoke (Jack Lopresti).

In closing, I pay tribute to the tens of thousands of volunteers who take part in raising so much money for charitable organisations and charities across the UK, including the Royal British Legion, Help for Heroes, the Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Families Association, the Not Forgotten Association, the Army Benevolent Fund and regimental benevolent funds, which do tremendous work. We should never forget their contribution. Again, I thank everyone who has spoken in the debate, which has been excellent, and I end by paying tribute once more to the excellent service of so many men and women in our services.