Business and Planning Bill
Earl Howe ExcerptsMonday 20th July 2020
(3 years, 9 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Business and Planning Act 2020 View all Business and Planning Act 2020 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 119-R-I(Corrected-II) Marshalled list for Report - (15 Jul 2020)
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment makes provision for a “smoke-free seating” condition.
“(6) The Secretary of State may by regulations—(a) specify conditions for pavement licences, and(b) make provision as to whether, or the extent to which, those conditions have effect in addition to, or instead of, any other conditions to which pavement licences are subject.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment replaces the power to publish national conditions with a power to make provision about national conditions by regulations.
Baroness Pinnock [V]
My Lords, thanks to the work of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, a number of very important amendments have been tabled by the Government that limit the extent of the powers in the Bill, with exceptions for a need consequent on a further outbreak of the coronavirus. Although there are disputes over the wording—the exact precise wording, as we have heard from a number of speakers—in general the amendments are supported on these Benches.
Of course, we all greatly miss our friend Baroness Maddock and record our commiserations to my noble friend Lord Beith.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, I begin by speaking to the government amendments in my name—Amendments 26, 28, 47, 49, 58, 60, 65, 67, 73, 75, 78, 80, 81 and 83—which are grouped with Amendment 19 and the others in this group tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson.
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for tabling his Amendments 19, 22, 57, 63 and 71, which would require any statutory guidance issued by the Secretary of State in relation to pavement licences, extended planning permissions, construction hours or electronic inspection of the Mayor of London’s spatial development strategy to be subject to negative parliamentary procedures. As he indicated, these amendments reflect recommendations made by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee of your Lordships’ House in its report on the Bill. I welcome the opportunity to discuss them.
The committee’s views are always important, and we have responded positively elsewhere in the Bill to its recommendations, as I shall explain in a moment. However, in relation to this matter, I am afraid we cannot accept its recommendations or, by extension, these amendments. This reflects partly a general principle but also the practical realities. First, the statutory guidance under Clauses 5, 8, 16, 17, 18 and 21 is planning guidance. Guidance by the Secretary of State to local planning authorities has been a key feature of the planning system ever since its creation over 70 years ago—whether that guidance has been through circulars, planning policy guidance or, more recently, the National Planning Policy Framework and its associated practical guidance.
The issuing of this guidance, as a general principle, has never required statutory instruments. For instance, there is no parliamentary procedure requirement in relation to guidance to local planning authorities about the preparation and content of local plans, a key planning function under Section 34 of the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004. Similarly, and to give an example directly relevant to this Bill, our construction working hours provisions and the extension of planning permission provisions modify the Town and Country Planning Act 1990. The various powers of the Secretary of State to issue guidance under that Act are not subject to parliamentary procedure. These documents will form part of the full suite of planning practice guidance and, in practice, it would be peculiar to have different parallel procedures for publication.
Our pavement licence clauses are linked to Part 7A of the Highways Act 1980. That Act contains four powers for the Secretary of State to issue guidance, none of which are subject to parliamentary procedure. Two of these powers were inserted by amending Acts in 2000 and 2015. The situation is similar for other statutory guidance required by this Bill. So, prescribing a parliamentary procedure for guidance in relation to the temporary planning measures in the Bill would be out of kilter with our well-established approach.
Furthermore, requiring guidance to be subject to parliamentary procedure does not reflect the practical realities of planning guidance. The draft guidance we have published is, like our other planning guidance, technical and practical and expressed in the form of questions and answers to help local planning authorities, and applicants, and has been formulated taking account of the view of sector specialists. For instance, the guidance on additional environmental approval for extending planning permissions has had input from the Environment Agency and Natural England. I hope that many noble Lords will have had the opportunity to review this guidance during the course of the Bill’s passage.
This guidance is designed to evolve over time in response to local planning authorities’ practical experience of these temporary measures. While we have obviously sought to ensure that guidance is as comprehensive as possible from the outset, we know that, in time, additional questions or clarifications may be required. We want to be able to make these updates in a flexible and timely way. We should not forget that local planning authorities are best placed to understand the specific needs, requirements and arrangements of their local areas. Providing helpful and up-to-date guidance is essential in allowing them to exercise their judgment on the ground. Requiring each change of guidance to be subject to the negative parliamentary procedure makes it more difficult in practice to make incremental changes to help them. I therefore regret that we cannot support these amendments, and I humbly beg the noble Lord, after reflecting on our arguments, to withdraw or not move them.
Turning to the other amendments in this group, I am pleased to say that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and I find ourselves in broad agreement. The Government’s Amendments 26, 28, 47, 49, 58, 60, 65, 67, 73, 75, 78, 80, 81 and 83 implement another of the recommendations of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, which the Government are pleased to accept. As noble Lords will be aware—I emphasise this to my noble friend Lord Balfe and the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett—the vast majority of the measures in the Bill are temporary. In several cases, clauses provide for expiry dates to be extended by regulations, subject to the affirmative or “made affirmative” procedure.
We thank the committee for its careful consideration of the Bill. Our amendments in this group would implement its recommendation to clarify that the provisions will only be extended for a purpose linked to the coronavirus pandemic. I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Beith, for his supportive comments on this issue. I join other noble Lords in extending my sympathy to him on the loss of his wife, the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock.
The Government’s intention has always been for the powers to extend the temporary provisions to be used, if necessary, in response to emerging information about the duration of the pandemic, the nature of social distancing requirements and the impact of coronavirus on relevant sectors. We want to provide absolute clarity that the powers to extend will be exercised only where this is necessary and appropriate, and only to mitigate an effect of coronavirus. Therefore, these amendments make this clear on the face of the Bill. The wording we have used is consistent with other legislation. I also remind noble Lords that the requirement for any extensions to be by regulations, subject to the affirmative or “made affirmative” procedure, will provide opportunity for further parliamentary scrutiny.
I am sure that noble Lords will welcome this clarity, and I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, will agree to withdraw Amendment 19 and to not move Amendments 27, 48, 59, 66, 74, 79 and 82, which are intended to achieve the same purpose.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara [V]
I thank noble Lords who have spoken in this short debate, not just for their widespread support but for their brevity. I particularly thank the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, for his kind words. I join other noble Lords in very much appreciating that the noble Lord, Lord Beith, has come in today to speak on this issue, and sympathise with him at this time of loss.
It was good to hear the noble Earl give a full response. He always couches his words to your Lordships’ House in such reasonable terms, packaged in a velvet of deepest hue, that it is sometimes easy to think that he is agreeing with you, when in fact he is not. In particular, I picked up his heavy points regarding the Government’s intention not to take up the recommendations from the DPRRC on statutory guidance to which regard must be had. The noble Earl gave very good examples, which had not occurred to me, but I have no reason to doubt that they are genuine. However, the DPRRC’s report is very firm on this issue:
“We have frequently taken the view that statutory guidance to which regard must be had … should be subject to a parliamentary procedure.”
It goes on to say that:
“This is not to say that the guidance should have to be drafted like a statutory instrument … The point is that guidance which has legal significance, and which may have—and may be expressly designed to have—a transformative effect on behaviour in important areas, requires a parliamentary procedure.”
There is clearly no chance that the House will resolve this important issue in this Bill, but I point out to the DPRRC that it has now been raised. It, and other committees, may wish to return to it in order that we resolve it going forward.
The House has given this issue a good kick about. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate, for picking up exactly point I was trying to make about the importance of the choice of terminology. He focused on a different set of amendments, but this issue runs like a golden thread through all the Government’s proposals when compared to ours. These are important differences, but they are not necessarily going to hold the House back tonight. I hope, again, that the DPRRC will look at them in due course. I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 19.
“(2) Schedule 1 to the Local Authorities (Functions and Responsibilities) (England) Regulations 2000 (S.I. 2000/2853) (functions which are not to be the responsibility of an authority’s executive) has effect as if, in paragraph B, after item 72 there were inserted—
“73 Functions relating to pavement licences | Sections 1 to 7 of the Business and Planning Act 2020.”” |
This amendment secures that, where a local authority has executive arrangements, functions relating to pavement licences are not the responsibility of the executive.
““smoking” has the same meaning as in Part 1 of the Health Act 2006;”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment defines “smoking”.
“(3) In subsection (2) “coronavirus” means severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2).”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the Minister’s amendment at page 8, line 13.
“(11) In this section “pre-cut off time”—(a) in relation to licensed premises and a day, means any time between when the premises first open that day for the purposes of selling alcohol for consumption on the premises and 11pm (but this is subject to paragraph (b));(b) in relation to licensed premises and a day throughout which the premises are open for the purposes of selling alcohol for consumption on the premises, means any time between when the premises are first open that day for the purposes of selling alcohol for consumption on the premises and 11pm.”Member’s explanatory statement
See the explanatory statement for the Minister’s amendment at page 8, line 33.
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that the Secretary of State’s power to extend the date on which Clause 11(1) to (10) expires, and another date in that Clause, can only be exercised if the Secretary of State considers it reasonable to do so to mitigate an effect of coronavirus.
“(14A) In subsection (14) “coronavirus” means severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2).”Member’s explanatory statement
The amendment is consequential on the Minister’s other amendment to page 20.
Baroness Pinnock [V]
Noble Lords, I apologise for the technical fault that rendered my audio not working. My noble friend Lady Doocey again made a very persuasive case for giving a lift to our local tourism sector by enabling an innovative approach whereby local businesses combine to provide additional benefits to the local tourist economy. What an easy way that is to support regions that depend on tourism, such as the Lake District, Devon and Cornwall. The Minister needs to respond positively to give hope to these businesses that have gone through such a hard time.
Earl Howe
My Lords, Amendment 55 tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, and the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, seeks to alter the package travel regulations in a manner similar to the amendment tabled in Committee. The noble Baroness is right to identify the difficulties facing the UK tourism sector, in particular the many SMEs in the sector. It is therefore right that we do all we can to support this sector through the crisis.
On 3 June, we announced a £10 million kick-starting tourism package, which will give small businesses in tourist destinations grants of up to £5,000 to help them adapt following the pandemic. As of last week, the VAT rate applied to most tourism and hospitality-related activities has been cut from 20% to 5% for six months to help the sector get back on its feet. We have launched the “enjoy summer safely” national marketing campaign to encourage British people to enjoy UK tourism. Ministers and officials have been meeting representatives from the tourism sector regularly via the Tourism Industry Emergency Response Group. We are actively considering all the recovery ideas suggested to us by stakeholders, including schemes to promote domestic tourism.
In that spirit, I would like to follow this up by arranging a meeting with the sector representatives that the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, has met to explore the points she has made about domestic tourism and package travel. I hope that offer is welcome. As confirmed in Committee, the Government have indicated that we will undertake a further review of the package travel recommendations. As these are EU laws, this review is better conducted when the transition period with the EU is over. I say that with some emphasis, as the EU Commission has recently commenced infraction proceedings against several member states that have amended laws in contravention of the package travel directive.
It is also important to reflect, as the noble Baroness recognised, on the balance to strike between business flexibility and consumer protection, so it is important to consult a wider range of interests. For the reasons I have given, I am not able to accept this amendment, and I hope the noble Baroness feels able to withdraw it.
Baroness Doocey [V]
I thank the Minister for his response, for offering to review the regulations and for the meeting that he suggested. It will definitely be followed up. If we wait until January 2021 in order to start reviewing the regulations, I fear that tourism will be pushed to the back of the queue behind so many other issues that the Government will need to resolve after Brexit is complete. I therefore suggest that the review should take place now in readiness for legal change as soon as possible in the new year. I hope the Minister will consider this, that we can discuss it further at the meeting he suggested and that he will engage further with me and the industry on this critical point of timing. However, at this stage I thank the Minister for the constructive way in which he has engaged with this issue, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that the Secretary of State’s power to extend the date on which Clause 16(1) to (5) expires, and certain other dates in that Clause, can only be exercised if the Secretary of State considers it reasonable to do so to mitigate an effect of coronavirus.
“(8) In subsection (7) “coronavirus” means severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2).”Member’s explanatory statement
The amendment is consequential on the Minister’s amendment to page 26.
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that the Secretary of State’s power to extend the date on which Clause 17(1) to (5) expires, and certain other dates in that Clause, can only be exercised if the Secretary of State considers it reasonable to do so to mitigate an effect of coronavirus.
“(7A) In subsection (7) “coronavirus” means severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2).”Member’s explanatory statement
The amendment is consequential on the Minister’s amendment to page 30.
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that the Secretary of State’s power to extend the date on which Clause 18(1) to (5) expires, and certain other dates in that Clause, can only be exercised if the Secretary of State considers it reasonable to do so to mitigate an effect of coronavirus.
“(7A) In subsection (7) “coronavirus” means severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2).”Member’s explanatory statement
The amendment is consequential on the Minister’s other amendment to page 35.
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that the Secretary of State’s power to extend the date on which Clause 19(1) expires, and certain other dates in that Clause, can only be exercised if the Secretary of State considers it reasonable to do so to mitigate an effect of coronavirus.
“(4) In subsection (3) “coronavirus” means severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2).”Member’s explanatory statement
The amendment is consequential on the Minister’s amendment to page 36.
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides that the Secretary of State’s power to extend the date on which Clause 21(1) expires can only be exercised if the Secretary of State considers it reasonable to do so to mitigate an effect of coronavirus.
“(4) In subsection (3) “coronavirus” means severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2).”Member’s explanatory statement
The amendment is consequential on the Minister’s other amendment to page 38.
“Local authority meetingsPower to make provision relating to local authority meetings
In section 78(7) of the Coronavirus Act 2020 (meaning of local authority: England), after paragraph (r) insert—“(s) a Mayoral development corporation established under section 198 of the Localism Act 2011;(t) an urban development corporation established under section 135 of the Local Government, Planning and Land Act 1980;(u) a parish meeting constituted under section 13 of the Local Government Act 1972;(v) Transport for London.””Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause secures that Mayoral development corporations, urban development corporations, parish meetings and Transport for London (which all have functions relating to planning) are subject to the power in section 78 of the Coronavirus Act 2020 to make regulations in relation to local authority meetings.
“(2A) A statutory instrument containing regulations under section 5(6) is subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment provides for the negative resolution procedure for regulations under the power proposed by the Minister’s amendment to Clause 5.
“(3) In Part 3—(a) sections 16 to 21 extend to England and Wales only, and(b) section (Power to make provision relating to local authority meetings) extends to England and Wales and Northern Ireland.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment is consequential on the Minister’s new clause inserted after Clause 21.
Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment secures that the Minister’s new clause inserted after Clause 21 commences on Royal Assent.
Business and Planning Bill
Earl Howe ExcerptsMonday 6th July 2020
(3 years, 10 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Business and Planning Act 2020 View all Business and Planning Act 2020 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Committee of the whole House Amendments as at 29 June 2020 (PDF) - (29 Jun 2020)
The Minister of State, Home Office and Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)
My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Howe, I beg to move that the Bill be read a second time.
It is a great privilege to open Second Reading on the Bill in your Lordships’ House. This is my first Second Reading speech since I took my seat in this House in April, and I am honoured to speak on this Bill, which is so critical for our economic recovery.
Noble Lords may have seen the Prime Minister’s speech of 30 June, when the Government announced that we would launch a planning policy paper this month setting out our plan for comprehensive reform of the planning system. I make clear that the Bill is not part of those ambitions for planning reform and should not be taken as a signal for what that will entail. This Bill is about implementing urgent and mostly temporary measures to provide much-needed support to businesses across our economy. We have within this House some of the country’s finest experts on planning and local government, so I look forward to constructive and positive discussions on planning reform once the paper has been launched.
For now, I beg noble Lords to focus on the merits of this urgent Bill, which will provide a much-needed boost to key sectors of our economy at this extraordinary time. The measures in the Bill have been developed in collaboration with industry and key stakeholders. The Bill directly responds to asks from businesses to help them to overcome the challenges that they face. It is right and important that we now support businesses in overcoming the disruption that has resulted from the pandemic and to implement new, safer ways of working. The Bill will support businesses in four key areas of the economy: hospitality, SMEs, transport, and construction. I will take each in turn.
First, the Bill will provide critical support for the hospitality sector. Food and beverage service activity has fallen by nearly 90% in the last quarter. From last Saturday, pubs, restaurants and cafes were able to reopen while following Covid-secure guidelines. The Government want to support those businesses to make the most of summer trade and to operate in a safe way. The Bill will therefore make it easier for businesses that sell or serve food or drink to obtain a licence on a temporary basis to set up outdoor seating and stalls. It will do this by introducing a temporary fast-track process for obtaining a licence from the local council to place tables and chairs on the pavement outside their premises. This new process will cut the time to receive approval for a licence and will cap the application fee at £100.
We recognise that public safety and access for disabled people using pavements is of unquestionably great importance. That is why the Government have published a national condition. When that condition applies, licence holders will be required to take into account recommended minimum requirements for footway widths and distances required for access by disabled people. In addition, local authorities will be able to refuse or revoke licences where they assess that it is necessary.
The Bill also makes it easier for licensed premises to sell alcohol to customers for consumption off the premises. It temporarily and automatically extends the terms of on-sales alcohol licences to allow the sale of alcohol for consumption off the premises as well. It also suspends any relevant conditions on existing off-sales licences, including conditions that require off-sales of alcohol in sealed containers and restrictions on sales for delivery.
We recognise the need to strike a balance between supporting businesses and ensuring safety and amenity for our communities. If in a particular location these alcohol licensing arrangements were to cause problems then any responsible authority, including the police or an environmental health officer, could apply for a new off-sales expedited review. This expedited review process will allow responsible authorities to quickly alter the alcohol licensing conditions, suspend it for up to three months or remove the permission for sales of alcohol for consumption off the premises. On receipt of an application, the licensing authority must consider whether it is necessary to take interim steps to the permission granted by the Bill within 48 hours of receiving that application, and must hold a hearing within 28 days of receipt. These temporary measures to support the hospitality sector will be in force only until the end of September 2021. This will enable businesses to make the most of outdoor seating opportunities in the summer months this year and next.
Secondly, to support small businesses, the Bill introduces measures to enable lenders to continue to issue bounce-back loans quickly and at scale. The Bounce Back Loan Scheme is designed to provide loans at speed to small businesses adversely affected by the Covid-19 pandemic. So far £29 billion has been lent to small businesses under the scheme, providing a vital lifeline to many.
The effect of the Bill is to retrospectively disapply the “unfair relationships” provisions in the Consumer Credit Act 1974 for lending made under the scheme. This is necessary to remove some of the checks and processes that lenders would otherwise need to run, and which would prevent them from providing loans to small businesses at the scale and speed necessary in this crisis.
Thirdly, to support our transport sector, this Bill makes changes to driver licensing and enables changes to roadworthiness testing for commercial vehicles. It will reduce the backlog of checks and tests that grew over the lockdown. It will help us to get goods, and indeed people, moving across the country.
The Bill introduces a temporary—and, in Great Britain, retrospective—power to issue one-year lorry or bus driving licences, rather than the standard five-year licences. This flexibility will allow a licence to be extended for a year if an applicant is unable to obtain the medical report required for a full five-year licence. This helps to alleviate pressures on doctors and the NHS.
The Bill also reforms the powers to temporarily exempt goods vehicles, buses and coaches from roadworthiness-testing requirements. This will be a permanent change but our intention is to use the reformed power only temporarily in response to the Covid-19 outbreak. This will allow for the high demand for heavy vehicle testing, which was reintroduced after lockdown only on 4 July, to be managed so that the most important vehicles are tested first.
Fourthly, the Bill will support our construction sector to get building again. It will introduce a fast-track route through the planning system to apply for a temporary extension of construction hours so that firms can plan for the safe reopening of sites. Temporarily allowing longer working hours—for example, during the evening and at weekends—will help to facilitate safe working by spreading out the working day. Importantly, local councils will have discretion to refuse requests where they consider that longer hours would have an unacceptable impact. I make it clear that this measure will not apply to construction works to an existing house, which affords a measure of protection to neighbours from disturbance. This measure will expire on 1 April 2021.
In addition, the Bill responds to calls from both the development industry and local authorities to extend planning permissions and listed building consents that lapsed during lockdown or will lapse before the end of this year. As a result of the pandemic, almost 1,200 unimplemented planning permissions for major residential development have lapsed or are at an increased risk of lapsing by the end of this year. These account for 60,000 new homes. The Bill enables the extension of these planning permissions and listed building consents to 1 April 2021, subject to any necessary environmental approvals.
There are two further planning measures included in this Bill. The first supports the Planning Inspectorate to conduct hearings and inquiries while adhering to social distancing. It enables the inspectorate to combine written representation, hearing and inquiry procedures when dealing with town and country planning appeals. This change was recommended by the independent Rosewell review, following which a pilot reduced average decision-making time from 47 weeks to 23 weeks. This measure will apply permanently to support the improved efficiency of the Planning Inspectorate.
The second responds to a request from the Mayor of London. It temporarily removes the requirement for the Mayor’s spatial development strategy to be available for public inspection and for hard copies to be available on request. In a time of social distancing, that is not practical. This requirement is replaced with a duty to make the current version of the strategy available for inspection free of charge by appropriate electronic means. Nevertheless, the Government appreciate that not everybody will have electronic access. As a result, the Bill also requires the Mayor to take into account any guidance the Government publish on appropriate mitigation measures. This measure will expire on 31 December this year. Taken together, all these planning measures will support the recovery of our construction sector and help to get Britain building again.
Finally, the Bill contains a provision to enable the time-limited powers to be extended by secondary legislation, subject to Parliament’s approval. This provides necessary flexibility, given the uncertainties around the duration of the Covid-19 pandemic and the nature of future social distancing requirements.
The package of measures in this Bill has been widely welcomed by businesses and local government at this critical and extraordinary time. The Local Government Association is supportive of the Bill, which it says will help ensure that a consistent approach can be taken so businesses can reopen as soon as possible. The Federation of Small Businesses also welcomes the Bill, which it says will help small businesses in the hospitality sector to resume trading with confidence.
These measures are necessary to alleviate some of the current challenges that businesses face and help the economy bounce back as we emerge from this pandemic. I look forward to our debate today and I commend the Bill to the House.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, this has been a constructive debate and I am grateful, as ever, for your Lordships’ detailed engagement with the measures in the Bill. I congratulate my noble friend Lord Greenhalgh on making his first speech in this House in physical form. He set out succinctly the measures that the Bill seeks to introduce. I therefore intend to focus mainly on responding to questions and comments posed in the debate. Those that I do not have time to cover today—and there will be several, for which I apologise in advance—I will answer in writing.
Before I turn to those matters, it might help if I addressed some of the cross-cutting issues that your Lordships have highlighted. The first is the wider context. This is an important Bill, but I am the first to acknowledge that its scope is deliberately focused. It does not pretend to cover the whole waterfront of the UK economy. That is why my right honourable friend the Chancellor will make a summer economic update to the House of Commons on 8 July, outlining the next stage in our plan to secure Britain’s recovery, building on the Prime Minister’s speech. It is clear that the long-term plans and big decisions are for the Autumn Budget and spending review, but there are things we can and should do now to give the country the boost it needs.
The first phase has seen us help families and businesses through the crisis. As the economy opens up, we will move into a new phase. I cannot confirm the details in advance, but we have done the right thing by helping people through the crisis and we will do the same as we come out of it. The noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, indicated her view that support for the economy has been insufficient. I remind her that the Government have provided unprecedented support to help businesses through the lockdown. Over £350 billion of government-backed and guaranteed loans have been made available to businesses and individuals, as well as a range of support schemes, including business rate holidays, tax deferrals and the job retention scheme. Of course, we will continue to keep under review what further support should be provided to businesses.
I can say, particularly in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, that our recovery from Covid-19 should be clean and resilient, making our economy match fit for tomorrow’s challenges and not yesterday’s. This means reducing risk and increasing our resilience to the threat that climate change poses to the UK’s prosperity and security, as well as the linked challenges of biodiversity and public health. Action to support net zero can deliver jobs and opportunities across the country, as demonstrated by our success to date—with growth up by 75% and emissions down by 43% over the last three decades and more than 460,000 people employed in low-carbon businesses and their supply chains. This is a win-win area.
A number of noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Kennedy of Southwark, the noble Baronesses, Lady Wilcox and Lady Andrews, the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, and my noble friend Lord Sheikh, raised concerns about the impact of these measures on local authorities, taken in the round. First, I note that the Local Government Association has been consulted and has welcomed the proposals on pavement licensing and planning extensions. Licensing proposals have also been discussed with local government and the police. Secondly, I remind the House that the Government have provided £3.7 billion to local authorities through un-ring-fenced grants to address pressures they face in response to the Covid-19 pandemic. This includes the extra £500 million announced on 2 July. This further funding provision demonstrates the Government’s continued commitment to making sure that councils have the resources they need to continue to support their communities through this challenging time.
On pavement licences in particular, our measures will create a more streamlined process and may take away some of the current administrative costs associated with processing applications. For example—and in answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson—we have taken steps to ensure that local authorities can impose their own conditions up front across all licences, which should help mitigate concerns about automatic deeming of licences. However, we recognise that elements of the new fast-track process may have resourcing implications. We are undertaking a new burdens assessment to assess what support local authorities need to implement this new temporary process and whether any additional funding will be necessary.
As regards planning consents, let us bear in mind that the measures in the Bill are temporary and together do not amount to a significant new financial burden on local authorities this financial year.
The noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill, expressed concern about the unclear situation, as she sees it, of councils returning to open public meetings. During the pandemic the Government have temporarily removed the legal requirement for local authorities to hold public meetings in person. While social distancing restrictions remain in place, we have provided councils with flexibility to hold meetings in a manner that ensures the decision-making process remains accessible to their residents. The local authority remote meetings regulations enable all meetings to be held remotely. They do not preclude either physical meetings or a hybrid form of meeting, where these can be held in accordance with public health regulations and guidance. The Government have amended the health protection regulations to allow indoor gatherings of more than 30 persons; these apply to meetings taking place in council buildings from 4 July.
The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, expressed concerns about the shortness of consultation, there being no legal requirement to post applications online and having only lamp-post notifications. She felt that was discriminatory against those with visual impairments. Local authorities are required to publish, in such a manner as they consider appropriate, applications, material accompanying them and the fact that representations may be made. The draft guidance makes it clear that authorities might consider using digital means of publicity, such as on their website or via an online portal, and that in deciding what action to take to publish, they should consider the needs of those who might find it more difficult to access online publications.
The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, called for a quarterly review, rather as is built into the Coronavirus Act. We recognise the importance of keeping the measures under review and will closely monitor their effects. However, we think that a rolling parliamentary review would compromise the stability we seek to provide to businesses and local authorities in the recovery stage of the pandemic. Almost all the measures in the Bill are temporary; they have temporary effect or apply to temporary schemes. The end dates we have set out in the Bill are designed to be restricted to what is proportionate and necessary, while giving businesses, local authorities and government agencies the certainty they need to plan their activities over the coming months. We think that subjecting the measures to an unpredictable cliff edge through parliamentary review will undermine this certainty.
On the Bill’s specific provisions, we are all aware of the serious effect coronavirus has had on the hospitality sector. Even as restaurants, bars, pubs and cafés open up again, social distancing requirements will significantly reduce their capacity, and we want to help these businesses recover quickly. Measures in the Bill will help by allowing easier use of outdoor space to accommodate more customers safely while summer weather allows. I am grateful for the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of Cradley, the noble Lords, Lord Bhatia and Lord Campbell-Savours, and my noble friends Lord Inglewood, Lord Bourne and Lady Noakes in this context.
The Local Government Association and several individual councils have been consulted on pavement licence proposals, as have the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee and the Cycling and Walking Infrastructure Group, which—my noble friend Lord Sheikh in particular will be pleased to hear—recognised the importance of allowing businesses to open safely while ensuring highway accessibility. The proposals have been welcomed by the LGA, UKHospitality and the British Beer and Pub Association. In addition, measures on alcohol licensing have been discussed with local government, trade, police and licensing experts.
Noble Lords, including my noble friends Lord Holmes, Lord Blencathra and Lord Balfe, the noble Lords, Lord Blunkett, Lord Low and Lord Addington, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Randerson and Lady Pinnock, were understandably keen to know how our pavement licensing provisions might affect pedestrians and those with mobility impairments and visual impairments. I agree that this is an important point and that we should never lose sight of the inclusion agenda.
We are publishing a national condition which requires licence holders to maintain clear routes of access. This includes taking account of the needs of disabled people and, in particular, section 3.1 of the Department for Transport’s Inclusive Mobility guidance. This sets out the recommended minimum footway widths and distances required for access by mobility-impaired and visually impaired people. I say to my noble friends Lady Eaton and Lord Lucas, and the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, that any licences granted will be subject to local and national conditions, and the legislation contains robust enforcement procedures. Local authorities can revoke licences where they give rise to matters of public safety, highways obstruction, anti-social behaviour and public nuisance, as well as on a number of other grounds.
A number of noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson, Lord Blunkett, Lord Carlile, Lord St John, Lord Paddick and Lord Kennedy, the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, and my noble friend Lord Balfe, understandably raised concerns about possible unwanted effects of the alcohol licensing provisions in terms of anti-social behaviour and disorder. We have established two main safeguards in designing these provisions, to ensure that any issues that arise can be dealt with swiftly and robustly. First, it is worth reiterating that the measures in the legislation will not apply to premises whose off-sales permissions have been removed, either voluntarily on a variation or on review, within the last three years.
Secondly, the Bill will introduce an expedited review process for automatically granted permissions. This can be used where there are problems of crime and disorder, public nuisance or public safety arising from how premises use the new permission. In this case, any responsible authority, including the police or environmental health, can apply for an off-sales expedited review. On receipt of this application, the relevant licensing authority must consider whether it is necessary to take interim steps within 48 hours, and must determine the review within 28 days. Interim steps can include: changing the hours in which off-sales are permitted; adding new conditions in relation to public nuisance, such as to prevent noise nuisance; and suspending the off-sales permission. As I have said, a review can result in the automatically granted off-sales permission being removed.
Beyond the provisions in the Bill, my noble friend Lord Balfe in particular may wish to note that the police also have the power, under Section 76 of the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014, to issue a closure notice if there are reasonable grounds to believe that the use of a premises has resulted, or is likely to result, in nuisance to members of the public or that there has been, or is likely to be, disorder near the premises that is associated with the use of the premises. Having mentioned that, I am sure we can all identify with the very good points made by my noble friend Lady Stowell of Beeston regarding the relationship between the police and the public.
I shall sum up these protections with an example. If local residents complain to the police about disorder relating to a particular bar or restaurant, the police might first consider taking immediate steps to close the premises using their anti-social behaviour powers, but they could also request an expedited review, which could result in steps to prevent ongoing issues at the premises by toughening the terms of the premises licence.
My noble friend Lord Sheikh, the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Kennedy, and the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, all referred to the importance of keeping hospitality workers safe. The Government are clear that workers should not be forced into an unsafe workplace and that the health and safety of workers should not be put at risk. To this end, we have published Covid-19 secure guidance for keeping workers and customers safe in restaurants, pubs, bars and takeaway services. The guidance sets out how to open workplaces safely while minimising the risk of spreading Covid-19 and gives practical considerations for how that can be applied to hospitality businesses. The guidance is non-statutory and does not change legal obligations relating to health and safety, employment or equalities, but it will help businesses to manage the risks for their employees through social distancing, hygiene and fixed teams or partnering.
Businesses must also carry out an appropriate Covid-19 risk assessment in consultation with unions or employees. Employers should share the results of their risk assessment with their workforce and are encouraged to display a notification that they have complied with the Government’s guidance on managing the risks of Covid-19. Employees can raise any concerns by contacting their employer representative or trade union or by contacting the Health and Safety Executive by phone or online form.
I appreciate that noble Lords may be interested to know the specifics of the guidance and therefore encourage them to read the guidance in full on the GOV.UK website. Due to the comprehensive nature of the publication, I cannot relay all its recommendations to the House. However, I reassure noble Lords that a considerable range of practical steps are provided to help to keep workers safe. The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, will be pleased to hear that that includes setting clear use and cleaning guidance for toilets to ensure that they are kept clean and social distancing is achieved as much as possible. I should add that the Health and Safety Executive has been given an extra budget of £14 million for extra call centre employees, inspectors and equipment to help businesses to manage the necessary changes.
The noble Baroness, Lady Northover, raised some very interesting points about second-hand smoke on pavements. With regard to pavement licensing, the local authority can impose locally-set conditions on licences. The draft guidance provides that, when authorities are determining applications and setting conditions, issues that they will want to consider include public health and safety, while the conditions can include restricting smoking in areas not designated for smokers.
The noble Lord, Lord Hain, called for new ways of working following Covid-19 that are arrived at through robust dialogue with unions and employees. The Government have worked constructively with the unions throughout the pandemic. We recognise that responsible trade unions can play a constructive role in maintaining positive industrial relations and that collective bargaining remains an important form of negotiation in the workplace. However, we believe that where possible industrial relations should be undertaken on a voluntary basis, not mandated by the state. Collective bargaining is largely a matter for individual employers, their employees and their trade unions. If workers want a union to represent them, they have the means to secure that through the CAC statutory recognition procedure.
The noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, called for a revival of holidaymaking and tourism. I am sure she will agree that supporting hospitality is a key part of supporting tourism. The pavement and alcohol licensing measures in the Bill will help restaurants, bars and pubs to get ready for the summer. The more places where people can eat and drink, the better the local tourism offer and the more likely people are to take the brilliant staycations our tourism industry offers. She and other noble Lords, especially my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral, will have seen yesterday’s announcement of more than £1.5 billion to support cultural assets of international, national and regional importance, and that money will directly help the tourism industry. The announcement has been widely welcomed, as I am sure noble Lords are aware, by the arts sector.
More widely, we announced the cultural renewal task force on 20 May. We have since published guidance on reopening holiday accommodation and the visitor economy to give businesses the ability to plan with confidence to reopen. On 3 June, we announced a £10 million kick-starting tourism package. This will give small businesses in tourist destinations grants of up to £5,000 to help them adapt their businesses following the pandemic. That is only one of a number of measures that we have taken.
The noble Lord, Lord Addington, and my noble friend Lord Moynihan asked about the status of sports clubs and whether they can benefit from the alcohol licensing measure. The Licensing Act 2003 provides for club premises to sell alcohol by retail to club guests, but only for consumption on the premises. I am afraid that this is not changed by the Bill. The Bill is focused on the wider hospitality sector. However, all clubs can apply for a variation of their licence to serve alcohol off the premises if they wish. Sports and physical activity facilities play a crucial role in supporting adults and children to be active. The Government are in discussions with representatives from the sport and physical activities sector about the steps required to reopen sports venues and facilities, including swimming pools, as soon as it is safe to do so, and we will update the public when possible. As with all aspects of the Government’s response to Covid-19, we will be guided by the science to ensure that, as restrictions are eased, people can return to activity safely.
The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, and others, including the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, asked whether temporary licences could be issued for small breweries to sell to the public. The provisions in the Bill do not grant any new licences. The proposal that a brewery should be given a premises licence without any scrutiny by the local licensing authority, the police or the public goes too far, I am afraid. It is vital that the conditions on which a permanent premises licence is granted receive careful consideration from agencies with a knowledge of local issues and the licensee. The suggestion that a premises licence could be granted through a purely administrative procedure or a minor variation would deprive the responsible authorities and the public of a voice.
My noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe asked about age verification. I will write to her on that topic.
The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, made some very powerful points, one of which was to question why schools should not be more fully open than they are when we are taking these measures in relation to pubs. While pubs reopened this weekend, he will know that schools are already open and more than 1.5 million pupils have been welcomed back. Since 1 June, primary schools have been welcoming back children in nursery, reception, year 1 and year 6, alongside priority groups. Since 15 June, secondary schools and colleges have been offering some face-to-face support for pupils in year 10 and year 12, who will sit key exams next year.
I will write to noble Lords who raised the issue of hospitality businesses that do not have premises and on any other topics in relation to that part of the Bill that I have not covered.
The Bounce Back Loan Scheme has, by common consent, been a lifeline to small businesses during the crisis. Over 900,000 have benefited to date, and I am grateful for the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, and others on this measure. The provisions in this Bill allow for the majority of bounce-back loans to be issued within just 24 hours, rather than the usual five to 10 days. They also help lenders to process applications at a much greater scale, and the measures have been welcomed by UK Finance.
The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, asked why the Government do not publish data on the number of applications to and rejections from the Bounce Back Loan Scheme. We have in fact been publishing relevant data on the Covid business lending schemes on a weekly basis since 12 May. This includes data on the number of applications received and the number and value of facilities approved to date for the Bounce Back Loan Scheme, CBILS and CLBILS. In publishing this data, we aim to support the information needs of society in general and of course the stakeholders. The Government are considering what further data may be available in the future while balancing the sensitive commercial nature of this information for lenders.
The noble Baroness, Lady Bowles of Berkhamsted, raised her concerns about protections for business. We need to remember that these are unprecedented times, which is reflected in the 100% guarantee that we are providing to lenders. Under the scheme, businesses cannot borrow more than 25% of their turnover, which should help to ensure that the loan is sustainable. In addition, to enable firms to get back on their feet, borrowers are not required to make any repayments for the first 12 months, and the Government will cover the first 12 months of interest payable. The scheme also has an affordable flat rate of interest and borrowers have six years to repay the loan.
However, businesses do need to take responsibility for what is in their interests. The terms of the loan are very clear in the application that businesses will fill in as part of securing a loan. Any business taking on a loan such as this should think carefully about whether debt is the right answer for them and about their ability over the long term to pay it back.
The noble Baronesses, Lady Falkner of Margravine and Lady Bowles, spoke about the prospect of defaults. The scheme supports the smallest businesses, which are the backbone of our economy, as rightly emphasised by my noble friend Lord Inglewood. The Government said from the start that they would do “whatever it takes” to support business; this scheme delivers on that promise and is in addition to the support the Government offers through business grants, the corona- virus job retention scheme and tax deferrals.
However, we have also made clear that bounce-back loans are loans and not grants. Borrowers must make every reasonable effort to repay these on time. The scheme being 100% government-guaranteed means that, should some borrowers default, lenders will not be burdened with debts. However, the Government expect lenders to seek to recover the loans where feasible and we are convening workshops in the coming weeks to discuss this in more detail with the accredited lenders.
I will write to the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, on the issues he raised on HGV licensing and move to another topic raised by noble Lords, which is construction working hours and planning. I am grateful to those noble Lords, and especially my noble friend Lady Noakes, who expressed support for the measures designed to assist the construction industry. Like the hospitality industry, the construction sector has been hit hard by coronavirus: over 40% of the workforce has been furloughed. The Bill helps them to get back to work safely, and the measures have been extensively discussed with representatives of the development industry.
To the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, who expressed concerns, I stress the point that these measures are temporary. The Bill will make it quicker to extend site opening hours, allowing for better social distancing and catching up on lost work time, and there is strong support across industry and local planning authorities for the provisions.
Having said that, I of course take on board the points powerfully made by the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, on the wider context, especially the future of the high street. I agree that there is a balance to be struck between using up spare capacity for housing on the high street and motivating the retail sector, but I say to her and to my noble friend Lord Wei that we strongly support the revival of the high street so that it becomes a place where people want to go. We need to look constructively at flexibilities to further that aim.
The noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Pittenweem, said that, in his view, the 14-day timescale was too short for consultation. He will recognise that, as so often, this measure has to strike a balance. We consider the timescale to strike a fair balance between allowing time for necessary engagement, for example with local councillors, and enabling developers to obtain a fast-tracked decision, particularly so that they can make use of the additional daylight hours available in the summer months. Local authorities know their areas well. We are confident that they will be able to judge the impact on local businesses and residents in the majority of cases, particularly since we have prepared guidance to support this decision. They retain the discretion to refuse where there would be an unacceptable impact.
A number of noble Lords, including my noble friend Lord Randall, expressed concerns about noise and nuisance during extended construction hours. I understand that concern. First, authorities will have discretion to refuse extensions to working hours where they consider that longer hours would have an unacceptable impact. They also have a range of enforcement powers available to them. Secondly, many sites will already have construction management plans, which will include mitigation measures against dust, vibration, noise and so forth. Thirdly, my noble friend Lady McIntosh will note that developers are, as ever, encouraged to work closely with the local community and their local authority and to undertake works which may be noisy and affect residents during normal working hours.
I will write to the noble Lord, Lord Best, on his proposal that the presumption in favour of sanctions in relation to the five-year housing land supply and the housing delivery test be suspended. I have an extensive note, but, unfortunately, there is not time for me to put it into Hansard. Equally, I will write to my noble friend Lord Blencathra on the potential for 24-hour construction and the need, as he saw it, to limit that facility.
I will cover a point raised by my noble friend Lord Randall, who was concerned about the environmental impact of extended construction hours. Local authorities will need to carefully consider applications where, for example, the development is subject to an environmental impact assessment or there are habitats issues. They will have discretion to refuse applications for extended construction hours where they believe that a development would have a significant environmental impact that has not previously been assessed.
I will write to my noble friend Lord Naseby on new towns and garden towns. I will also write to my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham, who raised two very important points about local plans and hybrid appeals. I apologise that there is no time to cover the note I have now.
Equally, I shall write to my noble friend Lord Lansley on the point he made about a three-month extension to planning consents not being enough, and to the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, on cycle lanes and parking bays. I shall also write to the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, about caravan and self-catering accommodation being open for the winter, and to the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, about the bodies with planning powers which are not covered in the Bill, such as mayoral development corporations, Transport for London and the London legacy corporations.
Once again, I am grateful for the excellent and constructive contributions from noble Lords who have spoken. In summary, the Government believe that this Bill is urgent and necessary. It will help businesses in hard-hit sectors get back to work safely and without delay. Almost all its provisions are temporary. They have been developed in consultation with businesses, local government and other interested parties. It is very important that these provisions come into force as soon as possible. If we are not able to make the changes before the summer, benefits for the hospitality sector will be greatly reduced and approval backlogs may again become an issue in construction and in vehicle licensing and testing.
We are entering a new phase in the response to coronavirus. The immediate crisis is abating; now we need to help businesses and the economy to rebound. This Bill will play an important role in achieving that aim. I beg to move.
Coronavirus Bill
Earl Howe ExcerptsWednesday 25th March 2020
(4 years, 1 month ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Coronavirus Act 2020 View all Coronavirus Act 2020 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 110-I Marshalled list for Committee - (24 Mar 2020)
Baroness Thornton
My Lords, this has been another short but important debate and I absolutely agree with my noble friend Lord Adonis; first, about the Resolution Foundation paper that came out this morning, but also on his point about the 5 million gig workers. The noble Lord, Lord O’Shaughnessy, made absolutely the right point: it is absolutely not in our interest for these people not to have enough to live on and to feel that they have to go out to work, even if they are ill and they will infect people, because otherwise they will not be able to pay their rent. We are very pleased to support this amendment—indeed, we always would have supported it.
I shall make just two points. One is about financial support. I really think we need to know when the Chancellor is going to announce what further support can be provided, not only for those who are self-employed, which is very urgent, but measures to improve access to sick pay and deal with the issues of assisting millions of people through the universal credit scheme by increasing it, suspending sanctions and scrapping the five-week wait for a first payment. Those things are absolutely urgent and important.
The other point I take this opportunity to raise is about renters. I looked at the Bill again last night after having said that I thought the three-month pause on evictions was not adequate to protect people who rent because it would defer a crisis only to the end of the period, when landlords will demand total arrears payments for three months’ rent. The Minister said that of course this could be renewed and turned into six months, but actually the Bill does not say that, so I seek reassurance. This is linked to income support because the people we are talking about are exactly the people who will not be able to pay their rent.
In the event of that, we need to be sure that individuals and families will not get served with eviction notices. Some people will have been given their eviction notices prior to this legislation, and the Government need to take account of that. Those people should not be evicted because they may have been given a month’s notice two weeks ago and they may find themselves evicted right in the middle of the worst point of this crisis.
My final point is about people in shared ownership, which is part of what the noble Baroness behind me said: when you have people with shared ownership, that is an issue. In the housing association world, people with shared ownership apportion their outgoings partly to their mortgage and partly to rent to the housing association. Many housing associations have put up rent from April as a result of the freeze on rent increases being lifted, so how will these tenants and owners be protected in terms of the rent element of those costs? I do not necessarily expect the Minister to be able to answer that question right now, but there are hundreds of thousands of people in the housing association world who will also need our protection.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and other noble Lords who have spoken to this amendment.
I will get straight to the point. The first thing that I ask the Committee to do is recognise the nature and scale of what the Government have done so far to protect the jobs and incomes of millions of people. The package of measures that we have already announced is unprecedented and is one of the most generous business and welfare packages by any Government so far in response to Covid-19. In the context of those measures, which have been broadly welcomed, the Government absolutely acknowledge the calls for more to be done in relation to the self-employed. I completely agree with what noble Lords have said about the vital role played by the self-employed in our economy and our national life. We have always said that we would go further where we could, and I can tell the Committee that we are actively considering further steps, which I will come back to.
We have already improved the welfare safety net to ensure that self-employed people and freelancers are better protected. We are temporarily relaxing the minimum income floor for all self-employed universal credit claimants affected by the economic impact of Covid-19 from 6 April for the duration of the outbreak. This means that a drop in earnings due to sickness or self-isolation or as a result of the economic impact of the outbreak will be reflected in claimants’ awards. It ensures that the self-employed are supported by the benefits system so that they can follow Public Health England guidance on social distancing and self-isolation.
Freelancers and the self-employed will also benefit from the changes announced to the benefits system such as the £20 increase in the universal credit standard allowance, which will mean that claimants are better off by £1,040 a year and will benefit from the increases to the local housing allowance. I add that we are already making sure that benefits are easily accessible and more supportive for those who need to make a claim. Other changes announced by my right honourable friend the Chancellor, such as deferring income tax self-assessment payments due in July 2020, are designed to help self-employed people and freelancers through this period.
My right honourable friend the Chancellor has stated that he is committed to going further to support individuals and businesses, and will provide a further update on support for the self-employed in the coming days. That is an assurance that I can give today. I have taken full note of the careful way in which the amendment has been drafted and the points articulated by noble Lords in support of it; they have been well and truly registered. An amendment to the Bill is not required for the Chancellor to provide further support for the self-employed, support that I emphasise is already planned and due to be announced shortly.
I emphasise again that everything is being done to ensure that everyone is supported to do the right thing for the good of us all. It would be wonderful for everyone if I were able to go further today, and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, will understand why I cannot, but I hope I have provided sufficient reassurance to enable him to feel comfortable in withdrawing the amendment.
Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws
Will agency staff be included in any thoughts that the Government are having about those who might be assisted but who are currently not covered? Many care workers and many people working in offices even here in London are supplied by agencies which do not consider themselves to be their employers but to be facilitators and mediators in creating opportunities to work. They are not able to claim those workers as people for whom they can have the special 80% arrangement. Might such employees be covered by the Government’s thoughts?
Earl Howe
The noble Baroness makes a very good point and one that I was familiar with in my previous role as a Health Minister. She is absolutely right: agency workers form a key part of the health and social care network and in other areas of our economy. I can assure her that they will not be overlooked.
Lord Adonis
My Lords, the Minister did not deal with the point about why the statement on this crucial issue will not be made in Parliament and be subject to debate in Parliament.
Earl Howe
My Lords, as the noble Lord rightly said, Parliament will not be able to debate any package of measures for the self-employed which my right honourable friend may announce until it returns on 21 April. That is a statement of the obvious, but it does not preclude parliamentarians from making appropriate representations to the Government once Parliament reconvenes. It will not be too late to do so at that point. One reason why my right honourable friend the Chancellor has not yet made an announcement is his determination to make sure that any scheme for the self-employed— which would inevitably be more complicated, as my noble friend Lord O’Shaughnessy said—is workable, clear and, above all, fair, without any danger of moral hazard. The measures already announced for those in employment have been widely welcomed. We do not want anything different to happen for any further measures.
Lord Adonis
Is not the reason why Parliament meets precisely so that it can make representations to the Government?
Earl Howe
Absolutely. That is what I indicated that parliamentarians, including your Lordships, would be able to do once we return from the Easter Recess. I suggest that, at that point, it is not too late to influence the Government in any announcement that may or may not have been made.
Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle
Government figures say that there have been 477,000 new universal credit claims in the past nine days, and social media is full of accounts of some 30,000 or 40,000 people being in the queue just to apply. What steps will be taken to ensure that everyone can get access to the provisions to which the Minister has referred?
Earl Howe
I am aware that self-employed claimants will not be required to attend a jobcentre; universal credit can be claimed online or via the telephone. Self-employed people who are unable to work because they are directly affected by Covid-19 or are self-isolating will also be eligible for contributory employment and support allowance. As announced in the Budget, this is now payable from the first day of sickness rather than the eighth. I recognise that we are likely to see a wave of applications and that the system can cope with only a certain number at a time, but I am aware that the system has been geared up to expect that wave. I can only assure the noble Baroness that the officials and civil servants involved in this process are as keen as anyone else not to let anyone in need go without.
Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon (Lab)
Those applying by making calls rather than going online are at the mercy of whoever answers the phone—if they are able to get through. While they are trying to apply there is a possibility that, because the system is so overwhelmed, they will not be able to get through to put their claims in. What happens to them? They are at home and not able to go to work because they are following the Government’s guidelines, but there is a possibility of them not getting through. In the meantime, their family is suffering. With all the will in the world, not everybody will get through. The Government need to bear that in mind when they say that they have things in place.
Earl Howe
The noble Baroness makes a very important point. She may be aware of instances where the system has broken down, and of course that is very regrettable. I hope that those affected will be able to bring that to the attention of the Department for Work and Pensions. We can only do what we can do. I say again that the willingness to ensure that the system works is most definitely there.
Lord Blunkett
I am in danger of being a pain here, but could the noble Earl acknowledge that he understood the point I was trying to make about micro-businesses? If they employ somebody, they may be able to draw down on the £2,500 per month assistance, which is very welcome. But if the business itself goes bust because it cannot draw down on the generous help that is available to larger businesses with rateable value, then those employees will not have a job to come back to.
Earl Howe
I fully acknowledge the noble Lord’s point. I refer him to the various measures that my right honourable friend announced for businesses generally, but in particular for small and medium-sized businesses. They are more vulnerable generally than larger businesses. The job retention scheme was specifically designed to address this situation, as he rightly said, as were mortgage holidays. The business interruption loan scheme is available to small businesses, particularly on finance facilities up to £5 million. That will enable more businesses to access the finance they need to assist cash flow. If it proves necessary for my right honourable friend to look at further measures, I have no doubt that he will do so.
Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws
Like the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, I regret if I too am being something of a nuisance, but I recognise that this amendment seeks to deal with gaps, where people being short of funds would then create greater risks for others. I want the Government to keep in mind that this is our last chance for several weeks to talk about this because of the Easter break. I am seizing the moment to say in this House that there are people who have no recourse to public funds: asylum seekers. The Government should suspend the relevant policy immediately, so that people who face hardship, who have no recourse to public funds, who are often living in cramped circumstances and who are perhaps most vulnerable to the virus have opportunities to access funds.
Baroness Uddin
My Lords, I too regret another intervention, but how will people know what is going on if they are number 30,000 in the queue? How will they communicate with the Government or the necessary department? What are the Government doing to ensure that they communicate to these people how they should react and respond? Is everything being done that can be? Maybe some of those working in the gig economy who have nothing to do will be asked to join some of these telephone contact centres as paid employees. That might be of additional assistance to the Government.
Earl Howe
My Lords, as the noble Baroness knows, there are various avenues for individuals to utilise. One might be contacting their local Citizens Advice to enable it to make representations. They can contact their Member of Parliament to enable him or her to make representations on their behalf. They are not without the means to communicate if something does not work as it should.
Lord Clement-Jones
My Lords, this has been an extremely valuable debate. All sides of the House have demonstrated how important support for freelancers and the self-employed is. The Minister will know that he commands quite a lot of confidence in this House, so we take him at his word when he gives us an assurance, as he has, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is determined to bring in a scheme that is workable and for precisely this cohort of people—5 million freelance and self-employed people. He has given an important assurance because, as the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, pointed out, we will not have the ability to question Ministers and Members in the Commons will not have the ability to question the Chancellor on the nature of any scheme. In a sense, we have it on trust that something will be done in the coming days. As the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, said, time is of the essence; indeed, “urgent” has been used across the House.
The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, also referred to the Resolution Foundation. Torsten Bell’s interview on the “Today” programme this morning set out a clearly workable scheme along the lines that Norway, Denmark and so on have already introduced, so is it any wonder that there is frustration across at the House with the speed at which the Government are acting in this area? I take entirely the Minister’s point that the nature and scale of what has been done so far is quite extraordinary —one is not trying to minimise that—but this is the next step that must be taken extremely quickly.
The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, pointed out the issue of eviction and other noble Lords have pointed out problems with universal credit, not least concerning means testing, capital assets and so on. None of those mechanisms will fit the bill for freelancers and the self-employed so I urge the Government to move on this with all speed, otherwise they will let down a significant proportion of our working population. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay
If the noble Lord has made his second point, might he draw his remarks to a conclusion?
Earl Howe
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Newby, for introducing this group of amendments. It might be helpful if I start by putting the issues that he and other noble Lords have raised in the context of the Bill as a whole.
The powers in this Bill are extensive. They are there to support the efforts being made across the country to combat the outbreak of this disease. The purpose of the powers is to support public bodies and wider society in responding to a serious emergency. However, we have sought, in parallel, to provide an essential mechanism for controlling the use of those powers. A balance has had to be struck between protecting the public’s health and safeguarding individuals’ rights, and acting swiftly in response to fast-moving events while ensuring accountability and transparency.
A two-year lifespan for this Act has been chosen to ensure that its powers remain available for a reasonable length of time, with the option to extend the provisions in it by the relevant national authority. I underline to the noble Lord, Lord Newby, in particular that the Bill cannot be renewed after two years without a statutory instrument laid in both Houses, which must be agreed to by both. A reasonable worst-case scenario for this outbreak is that it could last for more than a year. We therefore judged that some of the provisions in the Bill may need to be in place for up to two years. We cannot guarantee that a period of less than 24 months will be enough; nor can we predict which powers will be required or for how long. That is why we may also need to extend some of the provisions beyond two years.
Business of the House
Earl Howe Excerpts(4 years, 1 month ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Lord Privy Seal, I beg to move the Motion standing in her name on the Order Paper. This Motion will allow us to take all stages of the emergency Contingencies Fund Bill tomorrow. Like the Coronavirus Bill, it is an essential part of the legislative response to Covid-19.
House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) (Abolition of By-Elections) Bill [HL]
Earl Howe ExcerptsFriday 13th March 2020
(4 years, 1 month ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) (Abolition of By-Elections) Bill [HL] 2019-21 View all House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) (Abolition of By-Elections) Bill [HL] 2019-21 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, on his success in the Private Members’ Bill ballot. His persistence in bringing the Bill before the House is admirable and shows his dedication to reform in this area. As noble Lords are well aware, the matter in question is the removal of by-elections held when a sitting hereditary Peer vacates their seat. As a sitting hereditary Peer, I declare my posthumous, if entirely non-presumptive, interest.
Stopping these elections would, over time, end the ability of noble Lords to sit in this House by virtue of a hereditary peerage alone. Noble Lords have heard a great many views today, as in previous years, in relation to the proposal in the Bill, so I do not intend to repeat in full the detailed arguments made by my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham when he provided the Government’s response to the previous iteration of the Bill. I do, however, wish to stress firmly that the Government continue to believe that this House has a key role in scrutinising the Executive and being a revising Chamber. It is important that the way this House is constituted reflects both that role and the primacy of the House of Commons.
The proposed removal of hereditary Peers through the Bill, albeit over time, would constitute a major reform to the composition of the Lords as it would become a de facto appointed Chamber. Furthermore, as this and previous debates have demonstrated, there is no clear consensus in favour of the Bill. Those observations are by way of a preface to saying that, while we welcome discussion on matters relating to the role and functions of the House of Lords, we have reservations about the Bill.
As noble Lords will be aware, there have been previous proposals to end the practice of hereditary by-elections and, indeed, to remove hereditary Peers from the House altogether, since the passage of the House of Lords Act 1999. From the Wakeham commission to the numerous Labour Government White Papers, and from the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010 to the coalition Government’s House of Lords Reform Bill, this issue has been considered and debated at great length. There have also been several efforts by noble Lords, not least the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, to end the by-elections through Private Members’ Bills. For all the merit in debating the matter before the House today, I fear that perhaps the main thing we have learned is that opinions on this issue are divided and, judging by noble Lords’ contributions today, look likely to remain so for a while.
The Government recognise that Members of this House play a vital role in scrutinising the Executive and enabling the House of Lords to be what it is—an effective revising Chamber. It is worth pointing out, as many noble Lords already have, that hereditary Members have played, and continue to play, an enormous role in the work of this House through their committee memberships and contributions in the Chamber.
I will expand briefly on the subject of House of Lords reform. Legislation passed in recent years, such as the House of Lords Reform Act 2014 and the House of Lords (Expulsion and Suspension) Act 2015 have shown that consensual reform is possible. The work of the Lord Speaker’s Committee on the Size of the House has also demonstrated that change can be achieved without the need for legislation. However, I draw a distinction between the reforms brought about by the 2014 and 2015 Acts, which were, in essence, incremental changes, and the reforms proposed in this Bill, which are altogether larger and more far-reaching. Such reforms should be considered carefully and—I emphasise—holistically.
As a Government, we recognise the vital work that this House does while also respecting the primacy of the other place. Equally, though, I highlight that the Conservative manifesto committed to reviewing the role of the House of Lords. We will announce our plans for that review in due course, but meanwhile I gently suggest that that commitment by the Government provides a fresh context to the matters now before us.
Once again, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, for continuing to raise this issue and I extend my thanks to all those who have participated in today’s debate. I conclude, however, by making clear the Government’s position, which is that reform needs to be considered carefully, not brought forward piecemeal. This is especially the case where, as here, there is no clear consensus. It is for these reasons that, on behalf of the Government, I feel bound to express reservations about the Bill.
Zimbabwe
Earl Howe Excerpts(4 years, 2 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Oates
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have held ministerial-level discussions with European Union member states about the current economic crisis and food emergency in Zimbabwe.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, we regularly discuss the deeply concerning economic and political situation in Zimbabwe with international partners, including EU member states. Her Majesty’s ambassador to Zimbabwe last met her counterparts from the EU, the United States, Japan, Switzerland, Canada and Australia on 26 February. The UK has committed £49 million to provide humanitarian assistance to the 570,000 Zimbabweans most in need of food, including through cash transfers.
Lord Oates (LD)
I thank the Minister for his Answer. As he will be aware, the situation in Zimbabwe is now absolutely desperate. This is principally as a result of the disastrous failings of the Government of Zimbabwe, compounded by drought and cyclones. Does the Minister agree that, in addition to the restrictive measures against individuals who abuse human rights and continue to loot the country, we also need a positive offer to give hope to the Zimbabwean people in their struggle for political and economic justice?
Will the Government therefore work with our European and other international partners to agree an economic rescue package—a Marshall plan—that would be made available to any Zimbabwean Government who met specified criteria, including restoring democratic civilian government, upholding the rule of law and demonstrating a commitment to the well-being of its people, rather than the personal enrichment of its Ministers?
Earl Howe
My Lords, I acknowledge the noble Lord’s long-standing and close interest in Zimbabwe and its people, and I agree that we must continue to give hope and encouragement to all those who want to see genuine political and economic change in Zimbabwe. However, we have to face the reality that no package of external support will deliver for the Zimbabwean people without fundamental reforms, as he rightly says. Therefore, the onus must remain on the Government of that country to demonstrate true commitment to change. So far, we have seen limited progress.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)
My Lords, the fact remains that Zimbabwe is still a very dangerous place for people to live and, as the noble Lord highlighted, security forces there are using draconian laws. Last week, President Trump went to Congress to extend sanctions. What are the Government doing with the EU and the US to build a stronger alliance to force the sort of changes to which the noble Lord has alluded? Will the Government also consider using their new powers under the Magnitsky clause to try to target those responsible for these human rights abuses even more effectively?
Earl Howe
My Lords, we will review our sanctions regime in connection with Zimbabwe at the end of this year, when we come to the close of the transition period. The noble Lord is absolutely right that we are seriously concerned about human rights in Zimbabwe. There are abductions, arrests and assaults on civil society and opposition activists. The country remains one of the UK’s 30 human rights-priority countries. We provide extensive financial and technical assistance to civil society organisations in their efforts to hold the state to account on issues related to human rights.
Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)
Could my noble friend say a little more about the workings of EU and American sanctions, which, as the noble Lord, Lord Collins, just pointed out, are being increased at the moment? I know the intention is that they should hit entities and officials, and maybe they are doing so, but there are suggestions that one outcome is that this is making the food situation even worse for many innocent people. Can he explain how sanctions are working and whether we are satisfied with how they are operating?
Earl Howe
We are not wholly in agreement with the EU on its approach to sanctions. During the EU’s annual review of its Zimbabwe sanctions regime, for example, it decided to suspend sanctions on Grace Mugabe. As I said, the UK remains aligned to the EU’s restrictive measures on Zimbabwe during the transition period. We did not agree with its decision to suspend sanctions on Grace Mugabe; we will review the whole sanctions regime at the end of the year, as I have mentioned. It is important to stress that our commitment to the people of Zimbabwe did not stem from being an EU member. We have long-standing, deep relations with that country, as noble Lords will know. We will continue to raise our concerns with a range of international partners and most recently did so at the UK-Africa Investment Summit.
Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)
My Lords, will the noble Earl return to the question put to him by the noble Lord, Lord Collins, about the use of Magnitsky powers? With inflation in Zimbabwe running at 500% by the end of last year, extreme poverty rising to 34% and corruption remaining rampant—authoritarian and brutal individuals own properties in London and have salted away money and assets here—why are the Government considering excluding kleptocracy and the misuse of resources by political leaders from the Magnitsky powers? Will he give an undertaking that the Government will reconsider that?
Earl Howe
My Lords, I will certainly take that point away and bring it to the attention of colleagues; it is very important. We do our utmost to ensure that our bilateral aid, for example, does not go through the Government of Zimbabwe or their agencies directly. We work primarily through multilateral organisations, notably United Nations agencies. The noble Lord is absolutely right: the economic crisis in Zimbabwe is very serious indeed. We are disappointed that the staff-monitored programme agreed with the IMF has gone off-track. Our focus at the moment is on mitigating the worst impacts of the economic crisis and concentrating on the most vulnerable Zimbabweans.
Lord Chidgey (LD)
My Lords, the US ambassador to Zimbabwe, Brian Nichols, has stated that the Government must implement a market-based agricultural policy, fully liberalising the trade in grains and paying farmers on a par with the cost of imports. He added that the Grain Marketing Board was allocating subsidised grain to millers, who were selling it on the black market in neighbouring countries. This corruption costs the Zimbabweans in both food and treasure. What measures are the UK Government taking to support the US plans for a market-based economy and to make sure that UK aid is not lost through corruption?
Earl Howe
The noble Lord makes some extremely important points. As I mentioned, DfID Zimbabwe operates under a strict funding policy whereby no UK aid money passes directly through the Government of Zimbabwe. We work through multilateral organisations, notably UN agencies, international NGOs and the private sector, to deliver our UK aid projects. Apart from immediate aid, it is important that we also focus on enabling Zimbabweans to help themselves in the longer term on a more sustainable basis. In particular, DfID has two programmes supporting agriculture in that sense, enabling infrastructure to be developed.
Pension Schemes Bill [HL]
Earl Howe ExcerptsMonday 2nd March 2020
(4 years, 2 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Pension Schemes Act 2021 View all Pension Schemes Act 2021 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: HL Bill 4-IV Fourth marshalled list for Grand Committee - (2 Mar 2020)
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken to this group of amendments. Perhaps I can start by addressing the questions raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, in the context of the issues posed by the Constitution Committee. I appreciate the points she and the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, made on this. The Constitution Committee raised the skeletal nature of the provisions in this part of the Bill and sought clarification on how, and by whom, some of the powers might be exercised. Notwithstanding that, as I have pointed out previously, the committee accepts the need for some of the powers, even if in skeletal form. The noble Baroness was kind enough to concede that.
The noble Baroness picked me up on the distinction I made last week between policy and policy implementation. The policy in this area is developed: we are clear about what we want to achieve and what needs to occur for that to happen. There was a full and thorough government consultation. Following that, a government response was published and our policy aims were set out. As we have made clear throughout this process, further work on the technical development must be carried out and in due course, we will bring forward the affirmative regulations that provide much of the detail that noble Lords seek.
I would like to explain why it was necessary to bring the Bill forward at this point. The noble Baroness asked me why we think dashboards are a good thing. In our government consultation, there was overwhelming support across consumer groups, individuals and industry for our proposal to introduce a legislative framework in order to,
“deliver dashboards within a reasonable timeframe”.
Our experience over the past five years of trying to make progress on this matter—a long time, as noted by my noble friend Lord Young—is that without the clarity of our commitment brought by legislation, it would prove impossible to bring together the industry in a way to develop the service that consumers require and have said they want.
We have asked the industry delivery group, under the guidance of the Money and Pensions Service, to develop the infrastructure required to provide dashboards by working with a range of stakeholders, including pension scheme providers. This process will inform the content of the delegated powers. The alternative approach would be to table a Bill once all the technical work has been completed but, as I have just outlined, we would struggle to get industry to engage with us to enable this technical work to complete. We took the view that that course of action would be impractical and simply further increase the time that consumers need to wait for a dashboard service.
I am the first to recognise the Constitution Committee’s reservations about the use of delegated powers but, in this instance, we consider their use to be entirely appropriate and in keeping with the committee’s suggestion that they meet “an exceptional justification”. As to that justification, the reasons for the nature of the delegated powers are fully set out in the delegated powers memorandum. This recognises the need for a degree of flexibility while creating a digital service solution in order to ensure that the service provided remains up-to-date, secure and accurate. Technical requirements and user needs change and the legislative framework needs to be able to adapt at pace to meet those requirements.
The committee also referred to Clause 118 and asked the Government to explain who might be prescribed by the Secretary of State as someone who can publish standards, specifications or technical requirements for a qualifying pensions dashboard service. Pensions dashboards fit with wider government aims to give consumers access to and control over their own data, particularly across financial services. The Government’s approach is therefore to ensure that dashboards are fit for purpose over the long term, which includes recognising that ownership of the dashboard infrastructure and responsibility for the setting of standards may need to change over time, as explained in paragraph 1.364 of the delegated powers memorandum. It is not possible to set out now who might be asked to take on this responsibility in future, nor to state now the mechanisms of accountability to Parliament. That would need to be determined according to the circumstances but, as we have already set out, such changes will occur within the wider legislative framework, which offers multiple layers of consumer protection.
Viscount Eccles (Con)
Perhaps I should already know this, but will it be possible, in the additional technical work, for an individual to decline to have the information about his or her pension position put on to a dashboard? If past history is any guide, some people will always prefer not to join such a system. They might feel that they do not need it. Therefore, I express the hope that it will be possible to opt out.
Baroness Drake
At one level it is entirely up to the consumer, but if somebody hacks into the system or steals their identity, that is not under the control of the consumer.
Earl Howe
I will come on to the question of identity in a second when I address the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lord Young. Clearly, we want to do our utmost to ensure that the system is secure and that data can be accessed only by those entitled to access it.
I share the aim of noble Lords to make dashboards as useful as possible to individuals planning for their retirement. To that end, we are considering many of the aspects in these amendments as potential features of pensions dashboards in the future. Having said that, I need to come back to a point that I made earlier. The development of a pensions dashboard service that gives consumers a single point of access to their pensions information is a complex undertaking.
I remind the Committee that there are over 40,000 schemes, around 25 million people with private pensions wealth and a huge amount of state pension information. My noble friend Lady Altmann was absolutely right to stress that. It is why we have asked the industry delivery group to work with representatives from the pensions industry and consumer groups to ensure that the service is accurate, secure and consumer focused. Once again, I underline the word “secure”. I have to sound a cautionary note to noble Lords who want to broaden out the service in short order. Again, my noble friend Lady Altmann is quite right: adding any further complexity at this stage, however well intentioned, risks delaying the delivery of pension dashboard services to individuals.
I am sure we can agree that it is important that the design of this service is consumer focused. It must consider potential risks to the consumer and provide benefits to individuals planning for their retirement. The industry delivery group will undertake further user research and testing to ensure that that is the case. Any additional functionality should be made available only if three conditions are met: a clear consumer need should have been identified; safeguards and protections must be in place; and any functionality must be controlled and tested.
With those thoughts and aims in mind, I turn, first, to the amendments tabled by my noble friend Lord Young. In Amendment 45, he raises the important point of identity verification. This is crucial in giving consumers and pension providers confidence in the security of their data. In order to ensure a consistent consumer experience, the dashboard infrastructure should have one digital identity standard agreed across the industry. The level of identity verification used must be consistent with the internationally recognised standard published by government—the good practice guidance on identity proofing and verification. The good practice guidance is designed to be as inclusive as possible, so that as many people as possible are able to securely access the online services.
The creation of a digitally secure identity is complex. Last year, the Government introduced the digital identity unit, which is now leading work to develop a digital identity solution that can be used across the public and private sectors. The industry delivery group will work with the digital identity unit to enable the delivery of a secure, effective and inclusive identity service for users of the pensions dashboard. I understood what my noble friend said about Verify, and I assure him that the industry delivery group has this issue squarely on its radar. It is being informed by industry experts and consumer groups, and it will carefully consider available options and make recommendations on the best identity solution for pensions dashboards. The solution may not be Verify.
ID verification will have to meet the standards for all parties, including state pension, and that requires a high level above that for an individual scheme. Whatever happens, I can assure my noble friend that dashboards will be free at the point of use for consumers; that includes identity verification. Digital identity remains a priority for government and we are considering ways in which to continue this work with departments across government. We hope to make announcements on that in due course.
On Amendment 38, the Government fully support beneficiaries with entitlements having access to their pension information via dashboards. I can tell my noble friend Lord Young that this clause, as already drafted, enables this to happen. The delivery of this facility will be considered by the industry delivery group. However, his amendment does not distinguish between beneficiaries with entitlements and potential beneficiaries, without current entitlements to the scheme. Creating provision for a person with a potential entitlement introduces considerable legal and technical challenges about data protection and confidentiality in relation to the principal scheme member. The members themselves should have control of the access to such information, and this should happen only with consent. We should be wary of undermining confidence that an individual’s own pensions data will be kept safe, confidential and secure.
On Amendments 43 and 44, the Government recognise that some people will have a range of assets, including their homes, which could be used to form part of an individual’s retirement income. I understand all that my noble friend said in favour of adding to the dashboard in this way. However, I question whether such amendments are either wise or necessary. Many income projection tools are available through independent financial advisers to support individuals with this. The amendments open up the possibility of financial advisers being able to add information and make calculations directly on to a dashboard. This would significantly extend the scope of pensions dashboards, adding more complexity and risk to delivery.
That cautionary note is quite a good segue into Amendment 39 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, on financial transactions. The document Pensions Dashboards: Government Response to the Consultation sets out that qualifying pensions dashboard services will not initially have the capability to facilitate transactions. They will start with a “find and view” function, allowing only individuals to see their information. Further functionality will be carefully considered, taking into account the potential risks to consumers alongside the potential benefits.
It may reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, that although the Government have been clear that we want to enable consumer-focused innovation in the long term, this does not necessarily lead to transactions on dashboards. I also respectfully remind her of the mantra that we have uttered many times: that the consumers’ interests must come first. We set out in our consultation document three overarching design principles, which underpin the pensions dashboard ecosystem. These are: first, to put the consumer at the heart of the process by giving people access to clear information online; secondly, to ensure that consumers’ data are secure, accurate and simple to understand; and, thirdly, to ensure that the consumer is always in control over who has access to their data.
Baroness Sherlock
My Lords, I want to ask a couple of questions so that the Minister does not need to come back to us twice.
My noble friend Lady Drake powerfully picked up the points on transactions that I wanted to make. I heard the Minister say that the Government’s intention is to proceed to transactions at some point—I would be grateful if he could correct that if I misunderstood—but I did not hear him say why they feel that this is a good idea. I heard him say carefully that they would want assurances to protect consumers, but I did not hear anything about the positive driver for doing so that outweighs the risks that manifestly come with it, which my noble friend just articulated.
I apologise; I have two more questions. I should say that I am hugely grateful for the Minister’s thorough response; I appreciate him taking the time to give us that. It may be that, in all that, I missed the answers to a couple of my questions; I apologise if he gave them and I did not pick them up.
First, am I right in understanding that the dashboard will not cover legacy private pensions and new private pensions not covered by auto-enrolment? If so, do the regulations, as they stand, allow those to be included subsequently, and do the Government have any views on whether they were going to do so?
The Minister touched on my second question but did not answer it. On Wednesday, he said that
“we entirely understand the importance of having a dashboard run by a public body without any commercial interest.”—[Official Report, 26/2/20; col. GC 182.]
Why do the Government think that that is a good idea? Why are they not worried that there could be a long period when there are only commercial dashboards and no public dashboard?
Earl Howe
My Lords, on the final point made by the noble Baroness, it is fair to say that our debate last Wednesday gave my colleagues and me considerable food for thought as to the scheduling of all this. The strong wish expressed by noble Lords to prioritise a publicly funded and owned dashboard was duly noted. I hope to provide her with further thought on this as we go forward. I will come back to her in writing on her specific question on the inclusion of auto-enrolment schemes and so on.
The noble Baroness, Lady Drake, asked whether the consumer groups expressed a particular preference for the MaPS dashboard coming before any others. I bow to her on that. I will have to check whether that is a fair reading; I do not doubt that it is if she says so. I do not have the specific information to hand. The majority of respondents suggested and supported multiple dashboards, not just one. I can only repeat that the rollout of dashboards will be considered as part of a carefully controlled implementation plan.
I do not believe that I expressed a categorical government intention to include transactions on the dashboard. I said that we would make that incremental step only after the most careful consideration and public consultation, and assessment of all the risks. I freely acknowledge that risks exist in that quarter. If we venture into that sphere relating to dashboards, we must be absolutely certain that the risk of abuse, scams, misleading nudges and so forth is as minimal as it can be. Each incremental step will require further parliamentary scrutiny. The noble Baroness, Lady Drake, believes that this should be through primary legislation. I have to differ with her on that. We have made provision for secondary legislation by affirmative procedure, which provides a good measure of parliamentary scrutiny, preceded by public consultation which will inform parliamentary scrutiny. She and I have to part company in this area.
Lord Vaux of Harrowden (CB)
My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, talked about the business model of these dashboards. The noble Earl has just talked about multiple commercial dashboards. There must be a reason why people will wish to create these things, and therefore there must be a business model behind them. What is the Government’s vision for that?
Earl Howe
The Government’s vision is for consumers to have access to their own information if they wish, and a multiplicity of ways to achieve that. We believe that more is better in this context. That is not to make comparisons between one provider and another, but multiple dashboards will give consumers more choice in where they access their pensions information, and will drive innovation to meet what are bound to be the varied needs of those 25 million people with private pension wealth who are not yet in receipt of their pension.
Lord Vaux of Harrowden
My apologies: my question was not clear. I was asking specifically about the business model behind this. What is the incentive for commercial providers to create these things? Is it advertising? We have talked about transactions, et cetera. If we are going to have this multiplicity of them, there must be a multiplicity of reasons. Do the Government have a view on the best model and controls around that, whether it might be advertising, transactions or charges to funds?
Earl Howe
Scheme providers have been absolutely clear that they are keen for this to happen, mainly because the more exposure that the information has to the particular consumer, the more opportunities there may be for a dialogue between the consumer and the scheme provider—“Are you saving enough? Can we do more for you?”, that sort of thing. They see marketing opportunities in this, but that is very distinct from allowing the dashboard to enable them to enter into transactions. I hope that I have already covered that point satisfactorily.
Lord Flight
My Lords, is there not the point that, with people having on average 11 different jobs during their career and potentially 11 different pension pots, particularly those they were part of when they were younger, many of them have no information at all about it. They do not even know who the manager or the provider is. Already, the amount of unclaimed financial assets in this country is colossal. Without what is happening under this legislation, the problem will get worse, and we urgently need to sort out the ownership of lesser pension schemes, going back a long time.
Baroness Sherlock
My Lords, the six amendments in this group in my name and that of my noble friend Lord McKenzie of Luton are probing amendments designed to get Ministers to reassure the Committee that there is a robust system of regulation and supervision for those involved in the dashboards. Rather than go through them one at a time, as there are overlapping amendments from other noble Lords, it might be easier if I simply ask the Minister to clarify some of the key aspects of the supervision and regulatory regimes which the Government have in mind.
I was delighted last week when the Minister indicated that the Government have acceded to the request from my noble friend Lady Drake and many others around the Committee:
“we shall be introducing a new regulated activity under the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 to reflect the provision of dashboard services.”
Hurrah, say I. That is marvellous. The Minister continued with only very slightly less certainty:
“Clause 118 provides the power to set out detailed requirements ‘for qualifying pensions dashboards’. It is also likely that this will be linked to the new regulated activity outlined by the Financial Conduct Authority.”—[Official Report, 26/02/20; col. GC 183.]
I think we are being told that this means providing a dashboard service will be added to the regulated activity order. I am assuming that is what that means.
Those requirements in Clause 118 may include
“what … information is to be provided”
and
“how the ... dashboard service is to be … operated.”
They may also,
“require a dashboard service to comply with standards, specifications or technical requirements published … by ... the Secretary of State ... The Money and Pensions Service”
or another specified person. Crucially they may,
“require the provider of the pensions dashboard service to be a person approved … by … the Secretary of State … the Money and Pensions Service”
or another specified person. The last of those is crucial.
If running a dashboard service is to be an FCA-regulated activity, should that not mean that those running it have to be approved by the FCA—in which case, ought that not to be made clear? It could be another body, but the bodies named do not include the FCA. If the activity is on the ROA, does that mean that the FCA will then be able to use its full range of FiSMA powers of supervision and regulation on anyone providing dashboard services? Can the Minister further confirm that that would mean that complaints about anything to do with the dashboard could be made to the Financial Ombudsman Service?
This is the train I am trying to establish. It is great that the activities are regulated by the FCA. Will the people running it have to be FCA approved and therefore subject to the full range of FiSMA powers? It seems that that is where the real firepower is located. Alternatively, are the Government envisaging that a dashboard service might be run by an organisation that was not FCA approved, supervised or regulated? Would there be a real risk of consumer detriment if the FCA cannot use its full range of powers on anyone using a commercial dashboard?
Provision of information to a dashboard also needs to be subject to a scheme of regulation and compliance. Information will come from various sources. Will the provision of information from trust-based schemes to a dashboard be regulated by the TPR? What about the information provided from contract schemes? Will that come from via the FCA? Will it be directly under FCA supervision or by the fact that they regulate the firms providing the information? Who will oversee the provision of information from the state and make sure it is accurate? Where does the consumer go to complain about their data? At the moment, if a bank misuses your data, the ICO will deal with the bank, but the consumer will go to the Financial Ombudsman Service to deal with detriment. What will happen here?
My biggest concern is what will be done with data provided on dashboards and the potential for mis-selling. Amendment 68 would require that those providing dashboard services would have to act in the fiduciary interest of savers. My noble friend Lord Hutton just made a compelling case for that. Our argument is that this is a special situation where the state has mandated that consumers’ data should all be gathered together in one place. That is helpful, but it is a little like saying, “Rather than having them wandering freely across the hillside, all the lambs have been gathered into one pen”. In that case, you want to be pretty sure that there is a good lock on the gate and that anyone coming along pretending to be a shepherd can be spotted early and—“Stop. Enough of this analogy. Ed.” I think the point is made.
Because of this higher challenge, there should be a higher duty of care to the consumer. If an organisation running a dashboard service is regulated by the FCA, it will be subject to the “treating customers fairly” FCA standard, but this goes higher. It becomes even more important if it is possible that any of those people will not be subject to the full range of FCA supervision and regulation powers. There should be a duty of care to the consumer. We can see the benefit of gathering information/lambs in one place, but it of course makes the information/lambs much easier to access. Can the Minister give us some reassurance on those points?
Earl Howe
My Lords, the amendments in this group are designed to ensure that consumers are placed at the heart of dashboards and that the Financial Conduct Authority is given responsibility for certain aspects of that. I say straightaway that I wholeheartedly agree with this aim. What I cannot agree with is the way of achieving it proposed in the amendments.
The Government are persuaded that a strong regulatory regime is key to maintaining public confidence in dashboards. There are existing powers which we will use to introduce a new regulated activity for dashboard providers. We can do this by amending the regulated activities order set out in Section 22 of the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000. This will bring the provision of a qualifying dashboard service within the regulatory and supervisory the remit of the FCA. There is no need for the new dashboard-specific regulated activity to be in the Bill.
We are working with Her Majesty’s Treasury and the FCA to agree the nature and scope of the changes. Legislation amending the order will be brought forward in due course. I can also confirm that the Financial Services and Markets Act covers Northern Ireland, meaning that any new regulated activity would also extend to Northern Ireland. It is important to note that the new regulated activity will apply only to dashboard providers. Pension scheme trustees and operators are already within the regulatory remit of either the Pensions Regulator or the FCA. The requirement on pension schemes relating to the provision of information via dashboards will be set out in regulations and FCA rules pursuant to this Bill.
The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, asked whether the FCA will be able to use its full range of powers; yes, it will. All the FCA’s existing powers will be available where a dashboard provider must be FCA-authorised. To answer the noble Lord, Lord Hutton, the Financial Conduct Authority has an existing framework to ensure that authorised firms take the interests of customers into account. The Government will again set out in regulations the conditions that a dashboard will have to meet. This will be supported by new, dashboard-specific regulated activity, as I have just explained.
Strong consumer representation on the industry delivery group, alongside new regulations and a new, dashboard-specific regulated activity, will ensure that the design is in the interests of consumers and that they are protected. The regulatory framework for the new regulated activity will be proposed in the FCA’s consultation on the corresponding handbook rules and guidance.
Lord Hutton of Furness
I hear what the Minister is saying and am very grateful for the thoroughness with which he is responding to these issues, but will pension scheme members have any direct legal redress against a dashboard services operator should things go wrong? As I am hearing him, most of the remedies seem to lie in the hands of regulators or others, but if my data is misused or I feel that some problem has occurred as the result of the inappropriate organisation of a pensions dashboard service, where do I stand?
Earl Howe
Consumers will have various modes of redress available to them if they are not served legally or properly by their scheme provider or the dashboard provider. Our response to the consultation on dashboards highlighted the need for a clear liability model for the whole dashboard system. The objective is to enable users to identify easily where to raise a complaint or a dispute if a dashboard fails to work, or if they fail to receive their pension information. We have asked the Money and Pensions Service, through the industry delivery group, to consider how this might operate and to make recommendations. The Pensions Regulator and the FCA will regulate compliance by pension schemes and the Information Commissioner will have a role in ensuring that the disclosure of pension information takes place in accordance with data protection legislation. Only FCA-approved bodies can provide a qualifying dashboard. Only qualifying dashboards can connect to the infrastructure, and they will fall under the full regulatory regime.
New Section 238G, introduced by Clause 119, ensures that the regulator will be able to monitor and enforce compliance with the new requirements, in keeping with the existing regulatory regime. The FCA also has the power to enforce rules that it will make under this legislation. Part 14 of the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 allows the FCA to enforce any requirement on authorised persons, including those setting up or operating a personal stakeholder pension.
Baroness Altmann
I thank my noble friend for his very thorough response to this group of amendments. Is it not possible that without a comprehensive, overarching regulatory framework for all dashboard activities, consumers could fall between different cracks, and the provider of the dashboard that has provided them with misleading or incorrect information could then say, “Well, it was the person who gave us the data who was misleading: it wasn’t us. We are just providing information.”? Or could this activity in some way be related to unregulated lead generation, which is part of the pensions landscape and has been so damaging to consumers? Therefore, what I hoped we might achieve with my amendment was an overarching regulated activity for anybody participating in or providing data to the dashboard and for the dashboard provider providing the data to a customer.
Earl Howe
We come back to the question of a liability model. I might as well deal with that now. We set out in the consultation response that we expect the industry delivery group to make recommendations on a robust liability model that ensures that there are clear roles and responsibilities and a clear process for dealing with complaints. The point made by my noble friend that there is a risk that something might fall through the cracks is a very good one. The best that I can do at the moment is to say that, as the service is developed, the detail of where liability exists will emerge. She will agree with me that we are not dealing with new data or with new financial transactions, but yes, potential service risks might emerge. The IDG will, as I have said, recommend robust liability models, and the framework of any new liability arrangements will be set out in regulations. That is one of the reasons why we need delegated powers in this area.
I think that the industry delivery group is the best forum to build a liability model to which all parties are signed up and that takes into account good practice and lessons learned from open banking. While I realise that there are many differences, there are certainly lessons that we can draw from that sphere.
Lord Flight
My Lords, is not the big issue in this territory that when people have discovered that they have four, five, six or seven different pension funds, they will want advice as to what to do with them? There is the whole problem of who can give advice, guidance or help in that area, but unless arrangements are determined about how to deal with this question, I can see all sorts of regulatory issues arising.
Baroness Drake
The liability model has not been settled. That is perfectly understandable; I do not rush to criticise it because there is a lot to do. All I would say, because I cannot resist doing so, is that it goes to the argument that one should start with a public dashboard. My question follows on from that asked by my noble friend Lord Hutton. On reading Clause 118, clearly powers are given to certain parties to set requirements—with the exclusion of the Secretary of State, who is in a totally different position. Can the Minister confirm that no such powers under Clause 118 can override the FCA’s existing powers? He may not be able to answer that yet but it would give clarity.
Baroness Sherlock
On a related point, I tried hard to listen to what the Minister said because I am particularly interested in whether somebody can run a dashboard service if they are not FCA-authorised. I heard him say that the full range of FiSMA powers could be used, so a dashboard must be FCA-authorised, but I think I heard him say also that only FCA-approved bodies can run dashboard services. Is that right?
Baroness Sherlock
Excellent. In that case, I am trying to relate that to New Section 238A(5)(c), to be introduced by Clause 118(2), on page 105 of the Bill. It states that requirements prescribed under subsection (2) may, in particular,
“require the provider of the pensions dashboard service to be a person approved from time to time by—
(i) the Secretary of State,
(ii) the Money and Pensions Service, or
(iii) a person specified or of a description specified in the regulations”.
If, as the Minister just said, the FCA must authorise someone to run a dashboard, does it not make more sense for a government amendment to come forward to make that clear in the regulations, rather than naming two bodies—neither of which is the FCA—and having a catch-all for the third?
While I am on my feet—hey, why waste an opportunity?—and the Minister reflects a little more on that point, I want to ask about the duty of care and the fiduciary duty. I take the Minister’s point about the wording there, but are the Government resistant to the underlying point made by my noble friend Lord Hutton and me: that, in these particular circumstances, there should be a higher duty of care to the consumer on the part of the organisation running the dashboard services than would be the case in the general mêlée of the FCA? Treating customers fairly and related things may suit that generic environment but this is a very particular circumstance; the Government have initiated this and put all this information in one place and mandated its release. If it were more felicitously worded, would the Government resist the notion of a higher duty of care in this circumstance than the one that prevails generally in FCA supervision?
Earl Howe
I will certainly go away and consider that point, even if “fiduciary” is not the appropriate word, and look in conjunction with my officials at whether there is a mechanism that would achieve that aim without inventing some new legal status. I am grateful to the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Hutton, for their points.
The question posed by the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, boils down to this: if MaPS or another specified person sets the data standards, how will they be accountable to Parliament? As I said, the regulations enable parliamentary scrutiny and debate on any specific future proposal as they come forward.
We need to ensure that dashboards are fit for purpose over the longer term. That cannot happen in a summary way. Delegating the ability to set and update standards and technical specifications support through secondary legislation will, in our view, ensure that dashboards remain beneficial and relevant to consumers.
Our approach recognises that ownership of the dashboard infrastructure and the responsibilities for the setting of standards may need to change over time, but I reiterate that, taking into account the good practice that exists, the industry delivery group will develop and make recommendations on a robust liability model to ensure that there are clear roles and responsibilities in the event of a breach. That includes a clear consumer redress mechanism. In answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, the policy intent is that the FCA should authorise dashboard providers and that this should be achieved by order.
The FCA takes seriously the need to consult the public. It has a general duty to consult the public by publishing draft rules. This duty will apply equally in this case. The FCA will also consult the Secretary of State and Her Majesty’s Treasury prior to public consultation on draft rules. That will ensure that the rules have regard to the regulations that place obligations on trust-based schemes, which will provide a consistent and coherent approach.
We have covered quite a lot of ground, but I hope that I have effectively explained the role of the FCA in protecting consumers and provided the assurance that noble Lords are seeking that we will bring dashboard services within the FCA’s scope. If I have not covered all the ground, I hope that I can rely on meetings with noble Lords following Committee so that, by Report stage, I am able to come up with any further and better particulars that they seek. With that, I hope that for the time being the noble Baroness will feel comfortable in withdrawing the amendment.
Baroness Altmann
I thank my noble friend for his detailed response and the broadness of his willingness to consider the points that we have made on this important issue. I am delighted that he agrees that we all seem to have the same aim, which is to protect the consumer. However, I would be grateful if he went back to the department and perhaps wrote to me and other interested noble Lords about this. We all aim to have consumer protection but, if that is to be put in via a series of regulations with a liability model that we do not yet quite have, would there be any specific harm in putting in the Bill the regulatory framework and the requirement for FCA authorisation and protection for consumers, so that there is a comprehensive, overarching framework?
My concern is that, although this is portrayed as an information dashboard, we know that the provision of guidance and information has no consumer protection whatever—it is a matter of caveat emptor. If, for example, those dashboards carry advertisements that may be perceived as enticing people to buy products but they do not fall under such a regulation in FCA terms, we might be well advised at this stage to place an overriding emphasis from the consumer perspective on regulatory protection and authorisation for the entire framework, rather than relying on liability being proven later and redress being provided to the customer after a problem has occurred. For the moment, however, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Earl Howe
My Lords, I fully appreciate that the noble Baroness is trying to ensure that consumers are properly protected and have confidence in the dashboard infrastructure. Indeed, an aspect of this is the need for robust supervision, and I share her belief that it is important to make clear who will be responsible for oversight of the different aspects of the infrastructure. I do not think that much divides the noble Baroness and me on the objective to be achieved.
I recognise the need for a strong supervisory and regulatory regime for dashboard providers. I also agree with the thoughts expressed by many noble Lords at Second Reading about a new regulated activity being key to maintaining public confidence in dashboards. As I explained earlier, we intend to do this by amending the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (Regulated Activities) Order 2001.This will bring the provision of a qualifying dashboard service within the regulatory remit of the Financial Conduct Authority. Unauthorised firms will neither be able to connect to the supporting infrastructure nor be able to provide a dashboard service.
Once the amendment to the order has been made, the regulatory framework for the activity will be proposed in the FCA’s public consultation on the corresponding handbook rules and guidance. This will allow the public and the industry a chance to comment. The FCA must have regard to any representations made to it during the consultation period. This framework can be used to set out any expectations regarding the behaviour of dashboard providers and, in this way, will supplement any conditions imposed on dashboard providers set out in regulations. I would argue that this is where we dot the “i”s and cross the “t”s, as the noble Baroness put it.
I note that the amendment also refers to revenue generated by both dashboard providers and third parties. It might not be necessary for me to do so but I want to reassure the Committee that all qualifying dashboard services, like the dashboard provided by the Money and Pension Service, will not be allowed to charge simply for consumers to see their own information. The provision of financial services and products by firms that are dashboard providers will remain subject to FCA regulation. Fundamentally, our aim in allowing multiple dashboards is only to give customers more options in accessing their information, not different information.
The mention of information should remind us that pension information is the lifeblood of a sustainable dashboard. Dashboards will work within the existing framework established by the general data protection regulation and the Data Protection Act 2018. Dashboard providers will be subject to penalties under these laws should they fail to meet required standards of consumer and data protection. One of the key principles in the design of the dashboard is that the individual will always be in control over who has access to their data. Qualifying dashboard service providers will not be able to see information about the individual’s pension rights.
The responsibility for the provision of accurate data falls on pension schemes. The Pensions Regulator will be responsible for ensuring occupational pension schemes’ compliance with requirements. The FCA will regulate personal and stakeholder pension schemes. Enforcement options, including fines, will be among the tools available to the regulators if requirements are not met.
The role of these regulators will be complemented by the Money and Pensions Service, which will establish and maintain the dashboard infrastructure. While it will not act as a regulator, it will work with the regulators to enable their compliance activity. It is also obliged, as part of its consumer protection function under the Financial Guidance and Claims Act, to report to the FCA where regulated persons are behaving in a manner detrimental to customers.
That leads me to the issue of redress. If an individual wishes to seek redress, any queries around possible incorrect information should be directed to the scheme in the first instance. Schemes are already required to have dispute resolution processes. To come back to a question asked earlier by the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, if people are not satisfied with the outcome of the internal dispute resolution procedure, they can take their case to the relevant ombudsman.
The amendment covers the need for regulations around assumptions, projections and comparison of costs and charges. I reiterate that we expect that the initial information provided on dashboards will be simple in the first phase. Adding further information, such as projected pension income and costs and charges, requires consideration on the delivery and consumer protection aspects of these proposals, as we have discussed. I am not ruling out the possibility of including such information, but the industry delivery group should be allowed to consider the implications fully and make its recommendations. To commit to regulations around possible assumptions and comparisons before then would be premature.
Of course, as the noble Baroness will be aware, individuals can already access information on costs and charges. The DWP has consulted on simpler annual benefits statements; the noble Baroness may like to know that it will publish a response on that subject in the spring. The consultation looks at the presentation of costs and charges and how projections are calculated. It acknowledged the crucial need for simpler statements to be consistent with the work on dashboards. We will consider how insights from the consultation can be incorporated into dashboards.
The noble Baronesses, Lady Drake and Lady Sherlock, emphasised the need for adequate consumer representation. The Money and Pensions Service has brought together an industry delivery group whose job it is to ensure that the design of pensions dashboards is informed by industry experts and consumer groups. Membership of its steering group was announced in September last year. It includes a strong representation of consumer groups, including representation from Which? and an independent representative with significant experience in consumer protection. There will also be opportunities for other consumer representatives to take part in working groups, which will help to ensure that the final design is on what information and features consumers value.
The noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, asked specifically about the need to include advertising on a dashboard. I can do no other than refer back to my earlier points. Rules on advertising are as those around any other incremental addition to the dashboard, and rules on the parameters around the use of data will be looked at very carefully. They will be developed by the Government in conjunction with the FCA, which will work with industry and consumer representatives on the delivery group to make sure that if we go down that path, it is with our eyes open and with the risks minimised. We will of course consult on any rules surrounding that issue.
I hope that I have given sufficient reassurance around consumer protection to show that the dashboard infrastructure will build on existing regulatory frameworks. That, with the need to keep dashboards simple, means that while I understand the rationale of the amendment, I consider it unnecessary. I hope that, on reflection, the noble Baroness will feel that she is comfortable in withdrawing her amendment.
Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his response. As I said, this is a probing amendment but also an attempt to indicate a framework that could be constructive, perhaps in particular around some of those issues on which all noble Lords have spoken. It covers things such as advertising; it may be that the regulation that one would want around advertising is that there cannot be any of it, but that would still be a regulation to prohibit. I feel that there is a need for an explanation of this vision, somehow all in one place. Yes, a lot of it could be extracted from today’s debate and the reassurances that have been given. However, it would be much better at the very least if it was all put together, perhaps in an Explanatory Memorandum. I still tend to think that there should be something in the Bill, even if more dilute than what I have proposed.
I very much thank the noble Baroness, Lady Drake. This inequality of arms is extremely important. When it comes to FCA consultations, how many members of the public respond? I am not sure whether I am a member of the public, but I have done it from time to time, and I can tell your Lordships that, even for somebody like myself who is well used to this kind of thing, the way it is composed and constructive can be jolly difficult to get your head around. It can be difficult to get yourself organised to put it in, unless you happen to be an industry specialist who does these kinds of things all the time. I therefore very much doubt that you get members of the public responding; you may get some of the consumer organisations, but again, I doubt that they have the familiarity that is necessary always to be able to nail the point.
As was also suggested, there is a tendency with consultations to weigh the responses: X% says this, and Y% says that, and the ones who struggle and have difficulty, which is always on the consumer side, are outweighed. An awful lot of people with a financial interest from the industry side will respond. There needs to be a better mechanism for communicating with, if you like, the public and their representatives. One thing that could be done is for the FCA to obligingly inform Parliament when it is coming out with its consultations. I do not camp on the FCA’s website, looking for its consultations, and if I do not, I do not know how many members of the public will. This is a work in progress. I have to come back again on the costs.
Baroness Sherlock
My Lords, I do not want to say very much, but I have a couple of questions on the back of what the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, has said.
Can the Minister tell the Committee a little about what the regulators and the Government are doing to ensure that companies are ready to clean up data ready for transferring to the dashboard? Is there any intention for providers to check that members recognise the accuracy of the data at any point? Regarding what the noble Baroness described, if data had been wrong for decades, perhaps the member would not have known the details, but they might have known if they were not in a scheme, were in a different one, or if the basics were different.
The Cheviot Trust said that it was concerned that deferred members’ data would be less accurate. Is this on the DWP’s horizon? If so, what is being done about it?
Earl Howe
My Lords, I completely appreciate my noble friend’s desire to ensure that the information on the dashboard is accurate and secure. I absolutely agree that accurate information is essential to the effectiveness of a pensions dashboard. The answer ultimately must lie with appropriate regulations and sanctions. The Government believe that these protections are in existing regulations, and that the relevant regulators have the powers to intervene if compliance is not maintained. Having said that, I shall explain in a minute what work is going on in relation to this set of proposals.
In relation to personal and stakeholder pensions, rule 9.1.1 in the FCA’s senior management arrangements systems and controls sourcebook requires pension providers to
“arrange for orderly records to be kept of its business and internal organisation, including all services and transactions undertaken by it, which must be sufficient to enable the FCA … to monitor the firm’s compliance”.
If a scheme fails to meet these requirements, the FCA will select the most appropriate regulatory tool in the circumstances. Responses are proportionate and could include supervisory intervention.
Where enforcement action is deemed appropriate, the FCA aims to ensure that the sanction is sufficient to deter the firm or individual from reoffending and deter others from offending. Where it takes disciplinary action against a firm or an individual, it will consider all its available sanctions, redress and restitution powers, including public censure, financial penalty, prohibition, suspension or restriction orders; it has quite an armoury.
Regarding occupational pension schemes, trustees and managers are also required under existing legislation to put processes in place to ensure that the data they hold is accurate. Section 249A of the Pensions Act 2004 and the internal controls regulations 2005 require occupational pension scheme trustees to establish and operate internal controls that are adequate to ensure that the scheme is administered and managed in accordance with scheme rules and the law.
If a pension scheme fails to administer the scheme to a sufficient standard, or to comply with any other aspect of pensions legislation, the Pensions Regulator is able to issue an improvement notice. Where trustees fail to comply with an improvement notice, the regulator can issue a fine of up to £5,000 in the case of an individual or £50,000 in other cases.
My noble friend and the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, stressed the importance of promoting data quality on dashboards to scheme providers. Pension trustees and providers have been aware of our intention to introduce dashboards for some time now. We have been clear that they should start preparing their data now. The Pensions Regulator has increased its scrutiny of scheme records in recent years, and launched a specific targeted initiative in October 2019. It will take time to resolve data issues, which have in some cases been ongoing for decades, but the regulator is seeing good results from its engagement. There is still work to do, as my noble friend will be the first to agree.
An in-depth understanding of the challenges that pension schemes and providers will face in complying with compulsion is essential. The industry delivery group has therefore commissioned specialist independent and qualitative research. This will be conducted on a completely anonymous basis and will explore the challenges of meeting the requirements on data through deep-dive interviews with sample pension providers and schemes. This builds on the Pension Regulator’s insight. It will inform the delivery group’s recommendations for data requirements, taking into account the needs of different scheme types. It may be helpful to my noble friend if I note that, as part of the delivery group’s activity, a priority is to consider these specific items of people’s pensions data, which pension providers and schemes should supply for dashboard displays.
Experiences from other countries with dashboards indicate the importance of agreeing data standards with all industry stakeholders and the benefits of using the widest possible consumer research. The industry delivery group, working with its steering group, is developing a data-scope paper, which will highlight its latest thinking on dashboards’ data across the whole pensions industry. The IDG plans to publish this paper in due course, asking industry for feedback and, in particular, its provision of additional evidence where it exists.
The first iteration of the industry working group on data will effectively involve the whole industry before a small, focused working group will then refine this data thinking as we move on through the spring. I therefore hope that my noble friend can be reassured that the process that we have in mind has several stages to it, that they are logical stages, and that they should tease out the issues that she has very rightly drawn attention to in her remarks.
I hope that I have illustrated that the current obligations placed on schemes by the FCA and TPR, together with the enforcement powers which both regulators have, combined with the work that I have just described, are sufficient to ensure that the schemes will provide accurate data to the dashboard. I hope, therefore, that my noble friend will feel able to withdraw her amendment at this stage.
Baroness Altmann
I echo the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Drake. A number of elements of the expense shown in the impact assessment are elements that one would have hoped that the industry would take upon itself in any case. I sometimes need to remind providers that automatic enrolment has been an absolute gift to them. It has brought them 10 million new customers on a plate, with all the associated tax relief money. Surely they need to take an obligation upon themselves to modernise their processes and bring their IT into the 21st century. The standard answer is: “It’ll cost too much”, or, “We’ve got our own system, we don’t want to change to a new one”, but in Australia, the Government mandated a particular system that everybody had to adopt so that there was a common standard. It worked very well. My noble friend suggested that the industry delivery group is working on such a potential procedure, which would be excellent. It would incur costs but it would set the industry up for much more business in future on a long-term, sustainable basis.
Earl Howe
I am grateful to my noble friend for raising this important issue.
The Government published impact assessments for each measure in the Bill at its introduction. As is usual practice, we will publish updated impact assessments when the Bill is enacted, setting out the impacts of any material amendments to the Bill. I assure my noble friend that for measures where regulations that are subject to consultation are required, we will publish impact assessments when those regulations are brought forward. This must be the most beneficial time to revisit the impacts, when further policy detail is set out and we are able to apply that element of further insight to our estimates of costs and benefits. I suggest that adding another impact assessment between Royal Assent and the laying of the regulations would not provide any further transparency.
Turning to dashboards specifically, the Government are well aware of the additional costs necessary to support the set-up and maintenance of pensions dashboards. As my noble friend knows, when we published an impact assessment that accompanied the Bill, we set out initial estimates of the possible costs. However, we should recognise that many schemes already provide similar levels of information directly to their consumer through annual benefit statements or digital platforms, so not all schemes will necessarily incur significant additional costs.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, this amendment goes to the heart of protecting people’s pensions. We have touched upon a number of issues surrounding the same sort of concepts during debate on the Bill and in other legislation, such as financial guidance provisions. We should see whether we cannot get together a comprehensive note of how these things are covered. I am bound to say I am unclear as to what is and is not covered in all circumstances, so it seems that would be beneficial.
Concerning the specifics of the amendment, we clearly give it broad support. It raises practical issues, as I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, would identify, particularly on responding to approved questions. I am not sure who is on hand when the questions are being asked. We have seen what happened with taxi licences and such things in the past. The provision could give rise to challenges but the thrust is right: it is another attempt to make sure that people are aware of the consequences of what they do, to the fullest extent possible. As I say, I am not sure whether we have a comprehensive arrangement yet across all pensions and circumstances. It seems that it would be worth some effort to try to get that into place. With those words, I am happy to it give broad support. When the Minister replies, I am sure there will be some stumbling blocks in it but if we do not keep pushing and shoving, we are not going to make progress on this.
Earl Howe
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, and my noble friend Lady Altmann for tabling this amendment because it provides me with an opportunity to update the Committee on the progress that the Department for Work and Pensions, the Financial Conduct Authority and the Money and Pensions Service have made on delivering the stronger nudge to pensions guidance. As noble Lords are aware, this is a requirement of Sections 18 and 19 of the Financial Guidance and Claims Act 2018.
Before that, however, I would like to talk briefly about the take-up of Pension Wise guidance, which is a very positive story. The service is on target to exceed 200,000 guidance sessions this financial year, more than tripling those in its first year of operation. Recent Financial Conduct Authority data suggests that 52% of personal and stakeholder pensions accessed for the first time in 2018-19 received either regulated advice or Pension Wise guidance. That clearly demonstrates that the work the Money and Pensions Service, Government and the industry are already doing to promote both Pension Wise guidance and regulated financial advice is working.
I would like to talk about the measures in the Financial Guidance and Claims Act 2018 which were designed to further increase the take-up of Pension Wise guidance. Sections 18 and 19 require the Government to deliver a stronger nudge to pensions guidance. As the Committee is aware, MaPS is testing options for the best way to do that, in a way that complements the suggestions made by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, during the passage of the Act that his amendment was
“designed to be a nudge, rather than any kind of probably unenforceable or counterproductive compulsion.”—[Official Report, 31/10/17; col. 1294.]
As noble Lords are also aware, the drafting of Sections 18 and 19 was influenced by the Work and Pensions Select Committee. Following trials, those sections will deliver a final nudge to consumers to consider taking guidance prior to accessing their pension.
The Government firmly believe that, to effectively prompt more people to take guidance before accessing their pension where it is appropriate, we need to understand the impact of the nudge, and ensure that we avoid creating perverse incentives. We do not disagree with the principles of the amendment—work is already under way to establish how best to ensure that people thinking about accessing their pensions are encouraged to take guidance. We believe it is essential to use the evidence base that the trials on a stronger nudge will provide, and to consult before implementing the primary legislation in the Act. We would welcome the thoughts of the noble Lord and my noble friend on the proposals in the consultation.
The trials to test the most effective way to deliver on Sections 18 and 19 are due to conclude shortly, and an evaluation report is expected to be published by MaPS this summer. We are working to deliver on the requirements of the Act as quickly as possible, and as such we are already preparing for a public consultation this year. The Financial Conduct Authority will also consult on rules that have regard to these regulations, to make sure that there is consistency between occupational pensions and personal and stakeholder pensions.
The noble Lord seeks to require a member to provide responses to questions before a transfer can proceed. The effect of the amendment is that trustees would have the power to refuse a transfer should members’ responses not meet the conditions which the amendment proposes should be set in regulations. I assure him that the Government are already introducing conditions that seek to safeguard members against the risk of being defrauded. That change will strengthen trustees’ discretion in respect of transfers. Transfers were discussed in the earlier debate on Clause 124. The Government are amending members’ statutory right to transfer, to allow conditions to be imposed for transfers between schemes. That is aimed at ensuring that transfers are made to safe destinations. Non-statutory transfers can still take place, if the scheme rules allow. However, the amendment puts responsibility on members, not trustees, to assess the appropriateness of the receiving scheme. If the questions to be asked of members are specified in regulations, as proposed new subsection (1)(c) requires, an unintended consequence could be that fraudsters will be enabled to game the system. Members could be coached to provide answers that lead to transfers that should have been refused.
As noble Lords will recall, we have banned cold calling on pensions in legislation and established Project Bloom: a joint task force between government, regulators and law enforcement to share intelligence, raise awareness of scams through communications campaigns, and take enforcement action when appropriate. The FCA and the Pensions Regulator launched the latest ScamSmart advertising campaign on 1 July 2019, which has targeted those approaching retirement, as they were identified as being most at risk from scammers. There is also an FCA warning list, an online tool that helps investors check if a firm is operating with the right authorisation and find out more about risks associated with investment.
The noble Lord raised a specific concern about transferring out of DB schemes. Since January 2018, following its work on the British Steel pension scheme, the FCA has been working closely with both the Pensions Regulator and the Money and Pensions Service to ensure that it monitors pension transfer activity in DB pension schemes that might be subject to increased transfer activity. Also since January 2018, the FCA has issued tripartite letters to over 50 defined benefit pension scheme trustees. The tripartite letter reminds scheme trustees of their responsibilities when issuing transfer values to members and requests them to provide data that allows it to monitor scheme activity. On 21 January 2019, the FCA published a new protocol for how the three organisations—the FCA, TPR and MaPS—will work together to share information and work with pension scheme trustees, and that protocol addresses many of the recommendations made in the Rookes report.
I want to touch on one other point raised briefly by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey. He suggested that the new pension freedoms might be encouraging people to draw down savings too fast, putting them at risk of scams. In fact, the Financial Conduct Authority’s Retirement Outcomes Review did not find significant evidence of consumers drawing down their savings too fast. The study’s findings, published in June 2018, found that most of those withdrawing had some other form of retirement income or wealth.
Clearly, it is of the utmost importance that information and guidance are available to people and that they are aware of it. That is why there are now more opportunities for people to access guidance earlier in the pensions journey. Alongside the stronger final nudge trials, Pension Wise continues to run successful advertising campaigns across multiple channels, as well as working with employers nationally and locally to encourage them to engage with their employees at their place of work. The Financial Conduct Authority’s “wake-up” packs also encourage people to think about their pension options and include signposting to Pension Wise.
I reassure noble Lords that we are very aware of the importance of the need to make progress with implementing the requirements placed on government, the Money and Pensions Service and the Financial Conduct Authority, as set out in the Act. Our aim is to find an effective and proportionate way to do this.
To conclude, I accept that this work might not have progressed as quickly as perhaps noble Lords would like, but that is for a good reason. I believe it is very important to get this right and ensure that the policy is developed based on evidence. We always talk about evidence-based policy and this is a classic example of that. The trials will conclude very shortly and will be followed by an evaluation report. We will consult this year and will seek to lay regulations as soon as possible after that, alongside the rules that will be made by the Financial Conduct Authority.
For the reasons I have explained, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Sharkey
I am very grateful to the Minister for that very comprehensive answer. There are one or two observations that I would like to make about components of the answer. We seem to disagree about quite what the reach of Pension Wise is. The Minister quoted a composite figure of, I think, about 52% in Pension Wise and other advice. The figure that I had was, as I said earlier, about 15% using Pension Wise.
I was also interested in the comment about whether the current drawdown rate was sustainable. The Minister might recall that in the original discussions on the pension freedoms Bill, the foreseen sustainable drawdown rate was 3%. Now, it is running at 6% and 8% for pots under £50,000. Although I admit that I might be mistaken about this, I think that the FCA may in fact have said that 6% was not sustainable in the longer term either. Therefore, I think that there are warning signs about the rate of drawdown.
I had one other question about the nudge programme. I know that two schemes are being tested against each other, in an absolute sense as well, but when this programme was designed, did it incorporate a level of success at which a rollout would be justified? I would be interested to know if that were the case—I think it should be—and what the number was for these schemes. What would trigger a rollout nationally of these two small tests? I mentioned the FCA and the investment pathways initiative. Can the Minister write to me with more detail of what is happening with investment pathways; that sounded a very promising way of coming at the problem.
Finally, there is the question of timing. Timing is behind a lot of what I was saying. It is a long time since we started on the Financial Guidance and Claims Bill and debated all this thoroughly here and in the other place. We are still not in a position to do as much as we wanted about providing guidance or advice at drawdown. A very long time has elapsed, and I have demonstrated the harms being done to consumers in the meantime by ill-judged drawdowns or transfers. I continue to worry that these timetables will slip and the harms will continue. I am reassured by the Minister expecting a result from the nudges in summer—which I take to be ending in September—and then to move as quickly as we can to implement it, if it is a success. Perhaps he and I can have a conversation later; I would be interested to know what plan B is, because it is possible that neither of those nudge trials produces what is needed. Having said all that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Referendums
Earl Howe Excerpts(4 years, 2 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Soley
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to review the rules for referendums.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, the rules on referendums are set out in the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000, and the Government have no plans to review or change them. An Act of Parliament is required before any UK-wide referendum can be held. This means that all referendum legislation is thoroughly debated, and Parliament can decide to legislate for different rules for each referendum.
Lord Soley (Lab)
I do not like referendums for governing this country, but if we are going to have them, particularly on major issues, is it not important that we have a minimum turnout and higher level of approval in order to make major changes? The horrors of the way that politics and economics were divided in this country on Brexit were bad precisely because it was a narrow division, and it would be even worse if the same happened in Scotland or, particularly, in Northern Ireland. We need to think about minimum turnout and a maximum in order to make a major change acceptable. That needs to be agreed, and everybody has an interest in agreeing it.
Earl Howe
My Lords, I recognise the noble Lord’s consistent interest in this topic. However, Parliament would need to go down that kind of road with a good deal of care. This country has no history of applying thresholds to the making of laws, for example, or the electing of our representatives. Both those things require a simple majority. To start applying special thresholds for referendums would require special and clear justification.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that, on 24 April, I will be producing a Bill for the House to discuss the very issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Soley? Will my noble friend commit to approaching that debate with an open mind, bearing in mind that referendums are incompatible with representative parliamentary democracy?
Earl Howe
My Lords, I look to debating my noble friend’s Bill when it comes before us for Second Reading. I think it would be premature for me to set out the Government’s position on the Bill today. We will do so, as we do with all Private Members’ Bills, at the Second Reading, but I can assure my noble friend that we shall approach it with an open mind.
Lord Tyler (LD)
My Lords, do the Government accept that the worst failures with the 2016 referendum were concerned with transparency and funding? We still do not know who paid how much and for what and whether some significant sums were from illegal foreign sources. Strong recommendations have been made by a number of official bodies that the Government need to act on this, yet we have had no response. The long-awaited ISC report on Russian influence may be very relevant here. When will the Prime Minister authorise its publication?
Earl Howe
My Lords, the first duty of government is to safeguard the nation, and we treat the security and integrity of our democratic processes extremely seriously. We have no evidence to show that there was any successful interference in the EU referendum. However, as I said, we take any allegations of interference in our democratic processes extremely seriously. My understanding is that the report referred to by the noble Lord has been released by the Prime Minister.
Lord Grocott (Lab)
When we look at the last three referenda—on the voting system in 2011, on Scottish independence in 2014 and on EU membership in 2016—one of the bizarre characteristics is that, before the ink was dry on the results of those referenda, the losers were campaigning for a second referendum to reverse the first one. Therefore, should one characteristic of future referenda not be a minimum interval before the same question is asked again? Otherwise, you have an absurd situation where referenda designed to be for a generation are in danger of being reversed within six months.
Baroness O'Neill of Bengarve (CB)
Does the Minister accept that there has been some change since 2016? Although it is true that we have limited information about the success of the campaigning from without the UK on that occasion, and limited information about what happened in the election of President Trump, there is today much more evidence about disinformation campaigning and there are many reports, including by the Oxford Internet Institute, which give us great cause for worry about the future of democracy. Does the Minster agree?
Earl Howe
My Lords, we are very concerned and absolutely determined to protect the integrity of our democracy and our elections. As I have said, we are doing that by addressing in particular the mechanisms for electoral fraud through the introduction of voter ID and by banning postal vote harvesting. We have already announced a range of measures to strengthen and protect our democratic processes. These include commitments to launch a consultation on electoral integrity and to implement a digital imprint regime for online election material.
Lord Caine (Con)
My Lords, I express considerable sympathy with the sentiments expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Soley, about referendums. I have long held considerable doubts about using a 50+1 mechanism for bringing about significant constitutional change. I am also incredibly fearful of using that method to bring an end to the union with Northern Ireland and establish a united Ireland; the consequences are likely to be severe. Will my noble friend the Minister look again at thresholds in referendums? There is a precedent in 1979, when the referendum in Scotland required not just a majority of those voting at the ballot box but 40% of the electorate as a whole to back the proposals.
Earl Howe
That is true, but we have never gone down that road in any of the subsequent referenda. There would be serious challenges in doing so. First, Parliament would need to decide what level of participation confers legitimacy; I do not think that is a straightforward issue at all. If one had a threshold related to voter turnout, the inflexibility of such an arrangement could easily prove counterproductive and have the paradoxical effect of equating non-participation with no vote, because low levels of participation can void a given result. That could cause a great deal of disquiet among the public.
Lord Newby (LD)
My Lords, the Minister said that the Prime Minister has released the report on Russian potential interference in our electoral process. Can he say whether it has been published or, if it has not, when it will be published? If it has been published, can he make sure that copies are available in the Printed Paper Office?
Baroness Kennedy of Cradley (Lab)
My Lords, the Minister mentioned the digital imprint scheme that was announced last May. However, the Government announced that they could not possibly bring it in for the election that we just had in December. When will the Government bring in this imprint regime that will allow voters to have financial transparency and assess the credibility of online advertising? Will it be in place for the elections in May?
Earl Howe
We are absolutely clear that we want to introduce that mechanism as quickly as we can. It will ensure greater transparency. As the noble Baroness said, it will make it clearer to the electorate who has produced and promoted online political materials. I would love to be more specific about the timing. Unfortunately I cannot, beyond saying that we will make an announcement in due course and will do so as speedily as we possibly can.
Extension of Franchise (House of Lords) Bill [HL]
Earl Howe ExcerptsFriday 7th February 2020
(4 years, 3 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, I hope my noble friend Lord Naseby will allow me to congratulate him on his success in the Private Members’ Bills ballot and on securing this opportunity to raise the question of the voting right of Peers. He deserves enormous credit for bringing this House back to an issue about which I know he feels strongly. As we have heard today, it is an issue with which a number of your Lordships are in considerable empathy.
As my noble friend made clear, the Bill seeks to change the current position, whereby Peers who are Members of this House are not entitled to vote at elections to the House of Commons. The arguments for that change have been succinctly laid out for us, by my noble friend and many other noble Lords, including the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown.
There is, however, a long-standing rationale for the current position and I would like to draw on this in setting out the Government’s view of the matter. It is a view which I anticipate will come as no surprise to my noble friend or the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark. Peers who are Members of this House are already able to represent themselves in Parliament. They do not, therefore, require others to represent their interests, unlike members of the general public. That is the function of Members of the House of Commons: to represent those who cannot be present in Parliament to represent themselves. I therefore have some reservations, if I can put it as mildly as that, about my noble friend’s proposal to extend the franchise to Members of this House. But I appreciate that any issue on democratic participation is worth raising and discussing, and I therefore repeat my thanks to him for giving us this opportunity.
The principle that bars Peers from voting in elections to the House of Commons dates back, as has been said, to a 1699 House of Commons Journal entry. I say to my noble friend Lord Sherbourne that that may be an ancient provision but its rationale applies with equal force today. It is based on the premise I have already set out: that Peers who are Members of this House are already able to adequately represent themselves in Parliament. Parliament of course consists of the three estates of the sovereign, the Lords and the Commons. The Lords sit in their own right. The Commons is elected to represent the general public in Parliament. I do not believe that there is a strong case—there are arguments—for Members of this House to be able to vote to elect representatives to the House of Commons, since they are able to sit in Parliament anyway as their own representatives. This principle has long been established in common law.
Of course the bar on the voting rights of Peers in regard to general elections is not absolute; it applies only to Peers who are Members of this House. Hereditary Peers who do not sit in this House are able to vote in general elections, as are noble Lords who have retired or otherwise left the House under the provisions of the House of Lords Reform Act 2014. The basic principle has therefore been reinforced recently in statute, not simply in common law, as my noble friend reminded us. There is nothing to prevent noble Lords who sit in this House from being heard in the House of Commons. If a Member of this House wishes to pursue an issue as a constituent, such as in the example cited by the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, there is nothing barring them from raising it with their local MP. Noble Lords can also use their position to ask Parliamentary Questions and introduce legislation.
To address briefly a point raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, Supreme Court judges are able to vote in general elections. However, when those judges who are eligible to sit in the House of Lords return to the House, it is then that they are no longer able to vote in general elections. Bishops in your Lordships’ House can vote because they do not have permanent membership of it.
Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood
Can the Minister deal with the specific cases I raised of the President of the Supreme Court and the Lord Chief Justice, who are Members of this House but disqualified? They have no vote here and do not have a parliamentary vote. Would he not at least accept that that is a most regrettable anomaly? What he just said as to how other members of the courts have the parliamentary vote is true, but it does not apply if they are Members of this House.
Earl Howe
The noble and learned Lord has raised a very interesting constitutional point. It is so interesting that I think it is appropriate for me to write to him about it, and copy that to noble Lords who have spoken. As noble Lords who have stood where I am standing will be aware, there is a point at which the brief in front of a Minister runs dry. That is the case in this instance, but I reserve the right to produce some arguments.
Another issue raised was about the well-worn principle that there should be no taxation without representation. My noble friend Lord Young’s comments on that issue in the debate on 19 July last year were cited. I can understand why the point about a Japanese citizen could be attacked, but a British citizen of voting age who is not a Member of the House of Lords but who pays no income tax retains the right to vote. The point my noble friend was making on that occasion, which I echo today, is that there is not a direct connection in law between people who have paid tax and people who have the vote.
The reason why Members of the House of Lords cannot vote on Finance Bills goes back a long way. The financial primacy of the Commons dates back many centuries and was formalised by two Commons resolutions in the late 17th century. The first, from 1671, states
“that in all aids given to the King by the Commons, the rate or tax ought not to be altered by the Lords.”
That is quoted in Erskine May. The second resolution is more detailed, from 1678—I would love to read it out, because the language is wonderful. Noble Lords suggested that this is an anomaly or even an affront, but none of it prevents this House debating money Bills or tabling debates on a financial matter.
As many noble Lords have pointed out, Peers who are Members of this House can also vote, where appropriate, in elections to the Scottish Parliament, the National Assembly for Wales and the Northern Ireland Assembly; in local government elections; in police and crime commissioner elections; and in both national and local referendums. The difference in those instances, I say in particular to my noble friend Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth, is that those are forums or offices in which Peers do not have an automatic right to represent themselves.
Noble Lords therefore have a say in local, devolved and national decision-making. Enfranchising noble Lords to vote in general elections would give Peers two ways of being represented in Parliament—it would give them double leverage as citizens. My noble friend Lord Sherbourne suggested that there is no possible downside to such a change. The Government believe, on the contrary, that conferring such an exceptional privilege cannot be right.
I was asked by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, and others to say something about the commitment in the Conservative manifesto to review the relationship between the Government, Parliament and the courts in a constitution, democracy and rights commission. I wish I could provide him with further and better particulars on this commitment at this juncture, but, as I have said on two occasions recently, it is still too soon for me to do so. The scope of the commission will be announced in due course. However, I can tell him that the aim of the commission will be to develop proposals to restore trust in our institutions and in how our democracy operates. I hope I need not say, although I will, that we will continue to promote the UK’s interests and its values, including freedom of speech, human rights and the rule of law. It is clear, I hope, to most noble Lords that careful consideration is needed on the composition and focus of the commission.
In light of all that I have said, I must end with a disappointing message to my noble friend. Even if the Government supported the principle behind this Bill, and I hope that I have set out clearly our reservations about it, they do not think that spending further parliamentary time on it is justified when other, more pressing electoral reforms—reforms which the Government are working hard to bring into being—have been so widely called for.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
I have just been looking at the Companion. The Minister said that we do not need any representation because we represent ourselves in Parliament—I accept that we are Members of Parliament in a sense—but the Companion and the Code of Conduct talk about acting on personal honour and in the public interest rather than out of private interest. There may be some conflict there. I do not want the Minister to comment on that now, but perhaps he can have a look at it and respond to us in a letter.
Data Science: Government Processes
Earl Howe Excerpts(4 years, 3 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to consult Parliament on proposals to improve the use of data science in government processes.
Earl Howe (Con)
My Lords, as set out in their manifesto, the Government are committed to improving the use of data, data science and evidence in the process of government. The use of data science across government to help improve public service delivery is underpinned by strong regulatory frameworks, which can be found on GOV.UK. We have engaged with the Science and Technology Committee and the Communications and Digital Committee, and will continue to do so.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)
My Lords, the noble Earl will be aware from the Science and Technology Committee report of a feeling that the Government have lost momentum since 2015 in the transition to digital government. Is he aware that many of us welcome an active role in making government more digital, but we are conscious that there is a naturally suspicious public out there? The public are particularly suspicious of the sharing of their data with the private sector, and the Government therefore need to carry Parliament and the public with them by being as open as possible. If data science is pushed by the Government from No. 10, with people who used to work on data mining for Vote Leave, under the manically enthusiastic leadership of Dominic Cummings, we are unlikely to get to where we need to.
Earl Howe
My Lords, public trust goes to the heart of the Government’s work on data science. People need to know that data is being used wholly ethically by government. They can be reassured on that score by the data ethics framework, which the public sector has to abide by, by the work of the Centre for Data Ethics and Innovation, which advises government on how innovation in AI and data science can be deployed safely and ethically and, of course, by legislation, which protects personal data and people’s privacy.
Lord Maxton (Lab)
My Lords, is not the answer—to start with, anyway—a compulsory smart ID card for everybody in this country?
Lord Fox (LD)
My Lords, I understand that we have been promised a national data strategy at some point. What level of scrutiny will Parliament have over that strategy and will it be able to amend and improve it?
Earl Howe
Transparency is very important to DCMS, which is leading the work on the national data strategy. Last June, it published a call for evidence. It also conducted more than 20 round tables, structured around the three themes it had identified—people, the economy and government—with around 250 organisations. That first phase focused on engaging with academics, civil society and small and medium-sized enterprises, but DCMS also intends to hold vision workshops to include the public in discussions of what the strategy should include. I do not doubt that parliamentarians will be included.
Baroness Browning (Con)
I assure my noble friend that I do not wish to reopen the identity cards debate, other than to say that, although I voted against them in another place some years ago, I have changed my mind, for this reason. Data is captured at all times, but one of the main reasons given against ID cards last time was that the individual would not have access to the data captured on their own card, whereas third parties, including government, would. Given developments in recent years in the way that many bodies, including government, capture our data—often willingly given by the individual—could we not revisit it to look at what the science has now provided to ensure that individuals are able to access all data captured on their card? That, I think, might change a few minds.
Earl Howe
My noble friend raises some important points of principle, which I think can be addressed other than by issuing a compulsory ID card. We are working hard to ensure that data held on individuals is easily accessible by them and that, more widely, individuals can more easily navigate government websites and be assured that their personal data is not being compromised.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)
My Lords, we welcome the Tory manifesto saying, as we just heard, “We will improve the use of data and evidence in the process of government.” Can the Minister explain how the biggest IT project affecting the public, universal credit, was launched despite all the evidence from my noble friends Lady Drake and Lady Sherlock and our late colleague Baroness Hollis that this would not work because of its timescale and complexity? That was done against the evidence. As we have heard and will discuss further, UC is further delayed until 2024. What comfort can the Minister give that the Government can be trusted with our personal data to set up a system that will work for those most vulnerable in society?
Earl Howe
I recognise the noble Baroness’s concern on universal credit. It is slightly wide of the Question on which I have been briefed; nevertheless, her points are well made. She asks how people can trust the system. The Government take the privacy of citizens’ data extremely seriously. The Government Digital Service is proceeding with work that takes into account both the data protection regime and other guidance, such as the Government’s data ethics framework. I want to be absolutely clear that the work being undertaken by the GDS removes personal data before any analysis takes place. It is not about profiling citizens; it is about enabling citizens to have better and easier access to government online systems.