Welsh Affairs
David T C Davies Excerpts(9 years, 8 months ago)
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Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con)
May I say what a great privilege it is for me to follow the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy), who has been such an outstanding Member of the House? I am sure I speak on behalf of all the Members present when I say that we all wish him a very happy retirement, although I half suspect that we may be seeing a bit more of him in the years to come.
The right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd), too, will be leaving this House after a distinguished career. He and I have known each other for a very long time—longer than either of us would care to mention—since we were both practising law in the magistrates courts of north Wales. I wish him, too, a very happy retirement.
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) for his opening speech and the Backbench Business Committee for agreeing to this debate. It is an important debate, which we should have every year because it is, as the right hon. Member for Torfaen points out, extremely important that the unique issues that concern the people of Wales should be ventilated in this Chamber.
We are in the final weeks of this Parliament and this debate is as useful an opportunity as any for us all to take stock. In constitutional terms, Wales has seen great changes, some of which were initiated by my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan), who gave strong and sterling service as Secretary of State. But there are more changes to come, which were announced by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in Cardiff last week. These will be matters for the next Parliament and we will all have our views as to the course that those changes should take, but this is a useful opportunity to consider what has happened over the past five years.
In 2010 the incoming coalition faced the worst set of economic circumstances that any incoming Government had faced since, possibly, the 1930s. The country was still reeling from the crash of 2008 which, although a global catastrophe, was more keenly felt in Britain than perhaps in any other country in the developed world because Britain was carrying the worst structural deficit of any major country, largely as a consequence of what I would term the economic mismanagement of the Labour Government. The coalition Government therefore, in which I had the privilege to serve for more than four years, had difficult decisions to take. We are constantly criticised for what are styled as cuts by the Opposition, but cuts were essential. It is the easiest thing in the world for any Government not to take the difficult decisions. We took those difficult decisions.
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the biggest cuts that we have made is in the amount of interest that we are paying the banks on the increasing amount of money that we were previously borrowing, and that that is one cut we should be making?
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
I, too, thank hon. Members for securing the debate. It might not be obligatory, but I hope that we are setting a precedent of having a St David’s day debate that will be repeated annually.
Let me also pay tribute to the right hon. Members for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) and for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd). Although I have disagreed with them on many occasions about many things, as the right hon. Member for Torfaen says, we can also agree on many things. Both said much that I could agree with in their speeches. It has been a pleasure to have served in this House with them both and on a personal level many of us will miss them greatly. I wish them well.
It has also been a pleasure to serve as Chair of the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs. I was counting it up and I have served on seven Select Committees, or their equivalents, both here and in the Welsh Assembly. The Welsh Affairs Committee is rather lucky, because it can have an examination or inquiry into anything. Anything that affects Wales can be considered by the Committee and everything affects Wales, so we have pretty well considered everything that one could imagine.
The one thing on which we have always been able to agree is the topicality of those inquiries. We have looked into agriculture, broadband, industry and tourism and, by and large, we have been able to make recommendations that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and my hon. Friend the Minister, to whom I also pay tribute, as well as their predecessors, have taken seriously. I want to mention one or two and to inject a few personal thoughts, as well.
For example, we have considered broadband, which has been a particular issue in many areas and for many people in Monmouthshire. Without going into great detail about what is in the report, I want British Telecom to come out and say which areas will get broadband in the short term and which will not. We know that many areas will, frankly, never be reached by high broadband speeds and it is important that people in those areas know that they are there. That will allow them to go off and make use of other technologies such as satellites. The trouble I see at the moment is that far too often BT effectively tells people to hang on a couple of months, or another year or so, and they will be connected up to fibre, but it never quite seems to happen. We need more openness and transparency on that issue.
We considered the importance of a proper funding settlement for S4C. I am glad that that seems to be working out and that there seems to be consensus.
Albert Owen
The hon. Gentleman mentions the work that his Committee has done, but on broadband there is a plan in Wales, which is run jointly between the Welsh Government, BT and the European Union, which have funded it. That has enabled my area to be the first rural area to have the roll-out, along with Blaenau Gwent. There is a structure; it might not be reaching parts of Monmouth at the moment, but it is reaching parts of Anglesey.
David T. C. Davies
Perhaps the hon. Gentleman’s relationship with BT is better than mine. I do not know, but there are certainly parts of Wales that broadband is not reaching and Monmouthshire is among them.
Alun Cairns
I remind my hon. Friend and the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) that the scheme the hon. Gentleman talks about includes significant taxpayers’ money from the UK Government, as well—that is, £70 million. A higher level of funding comes from the UK Government through the UK taxpayer than from the Welsh Government in that process.
David T. C. Davies
There we have it. There is money aplenty going in to it from the Welsh Assembly, the British taxpayers and the European Union, but it is still not getting to Monmouthshire. Perhaps we should return to that point. I appreciate the co-operation between members of the Committee. People outside the Committee could perhaps take a lesson on it. I do not want to be too critical of anyone on this Thursday afternoon, but it was interesting that we found in one of our inquiries that there was not quite the co-operation between International Business Wales and UK Trade & Investment that one would like. When the First Minister, or indeed my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales, goes off to sell Wales, they should go as part of a joint trade mission so that we can show investors from the far east or elsewhere that the Welsh Assembly and the national Government are speaking with one voice on the importance of inward investment. Whether politicans are Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrat, Plaid Cymru or from some other party, in the Assembly or Parliament, we all agree on the importance of getting investment into Wales.
Stephen Crabb
The Chairman of the Select Committee is making an important point about inward investment. It is worth putting it on the record that last year saw the highest level of inward investment in Wales for almost 25 years. The crucial point, which I think is what he is implying, is that almost all the inward investment projects were secured with the backing and support of UKTI. So collaboration between the Welsh Government and UKTI is vital.
David T. C. Davies
I accept that. I am trying not to be too critical of members of other parties. I simply make the point that co-operation is important not only in business but in tourism. I was surprised to learn that VisitBritain and Visit Wales do not have that many discussions with each other. I believe that the Welsh tourism Minister has not met senior people in VisitBritain and vice versa. That is disappointing, frankly, because they all have an interest in making sure that when tourists come to London they are told that the Principality of Wales is only two hours away by train and are encouraged to come and have a look at it.
One of the most topical issues that the Committee has looked at and that I suspect whoever chairs the Committee after the election will want to have another look at is the Severn bridge. The money to be returned to Severn River Crossing will have been paid by 2017. At that point the Government, whoever they are, will have to make a decision on whether to carry on using SRC or some other private company to collect the tolls or to bring the bridge back into public ownership.
David T. C. Davies
I am not normally known as a supporter of nationalisation, but if the bridge is run by a public body—the Government or the Welsh Assembly—the VAT of 20% will no longer be payable. That would be a 20% cut in the tolls overnight. On that basis, I think that I am willing to set aside decades of Conservative thought and call for the nationalisation of the Severn bridge. It would be of enormous benefit to everyone who uses it, including many of my constituents. Furthermore, my Committee looked at the current level of the tolls and we calculated—it was a little bit of a back-of-an-envelope calculation, but no one has yet contradicted it—that the tolls could be set at about one third of the current levels, and that that would be enough to maintain the bridge. No one has ever denied that, and I would be interested to see if anyone can.
Clearly, it is expensive to maintain the bridge. I have been down there and been shown by the engineers how it moves around the whole time. Both bridges are extraordinary structures based at the estuary with the second highest tide in the world. I do not realistically believe that we will ever get rid of the tolls completely, but it would be utterly wrong for the Treasury to use the tolls as some kind of milch cow. The people of Wales and south-west England deserve better than that. The tolls should be drastically cut on top of the cut that should come about as a result of the removal of VAT.
I have discussed this with the Department for Transport, which said, “But we had to spend extra money on the old bridge.” That is true, and it has given me the figures for that. But it is also true that other changes to taxes—VAT, which I have mentioned, and the industrial buildings tax—meant that the Treasury got something of a windfall as well, albeit one that it was not expecting. That windfall, I believe, exceeds the amount of money that was spent on the old bridge. So it is time for a fairer deal for Wales on this issue. I invite my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and my hon. Friend the Minister—I very much hope they are in their jobs after the election—to think about some sort of plan for what we will do post-2017, when the issue will have to be faced by us.
Members of the Committee, whoever they may be after the election, may want to look also at the proposed new M4 relief road. I appreciate that transport affects all of Wales, and north Wales transport links are just as important. Obviously, I know a little bit more about this one, which has greater relevance to my constituency, but it is an all-Wales issue, because the Welsh Assembly is planning to use its new borrowing powers to pay for that route. There is a great big argument going on now about whether it should do that. I put my cards on the table: I am not particularly sympathetic to the environmental arguments being put forward, because many of the people putting forward those arguments would put them forward whatever. They are opposed to any kind of development whatsoever, anywhere. Whether it is houses, roads or anything at all, there are people out there who simply do not like development. I find myself, unusually and perhaps for the first time ever, on the same side as the Welsh Assembly’s Minister for Economy, Science and Transport. That is probably a shock to us both.
Two other issues have been mentioned today which the Committee will clearly want to look at—energy and where we are heading with devolution. On devolution, with the utmost respect, I beg to differ from my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies). I am very concerned about what has been happening over the past 15 or 16 years. Every couple of years the Welsh Assembly asks for extra powers, and some sort of committee is set up or somebody is sent off on a roadshow somewhere to hold meetings in village halls at which only a few people turn up, then they come back and write a long report recommending that all sorts of extra powers be given to the Welsh Assembly. Not surprisingly, whoever is in government thinks, “Let’s keep them quiet and give them the extra powers.” On and on it goes, and no thought has been given to where this is going to end.
Scotland always seems to be a few jumps ahead and has now, in effect, got home rule. Northern Ireland has another set of powers and a structure which is rather difficult to understand, but which is obviously shaped to try and keep the peace over there. All these bodies look around at what the others have got, and they will always find something that one lot has which they do not have, and they will say, “It’s not fair. We are being treated unfairly. Why have the Scots got this and we haven’t?” Nobody is looking at what has happened—or rather, what has not happened—in England.
I share the instinctive Unionism of the right hon. Member for Torfaen, but I see the solution as lying in some kind of federal settlement, English Parliament or English votes on English laws, because a failure to address this problem now will mean ever more powers leeching away to Scotland and Wales. Probably in the next 15 or 20 years, but maybe even sooner, there will be another referendum in Scotland. I would not be at all surprised if in my lifetime the Scots voted for independence. Wales will be constantly looking at it, and people will say, “They’ve got it. They can do it. Why can’t we have it? Why can’t we do it as well?”
I genuinely fear that in my lifetime Wales could become an independent nation. There may be some who want to see that happen. I personally do not, and the only way that I think we could stop that is to lock everything into place, possibly through some kind of federal solution, perhaps with a federal parliament overseeing defence, taxation and foreign affairs, but making certain that nobody can go beyond the line. There is no line in the sand at present and we have to draw one, even if that means giving a few extra powers to the Welsh Assembly. If at some point we can say, “There you are. That is it. You can’t have any more because nobody else would be able to have anything more either”, we might be able to lock things up and ensure that there is no further move towards complete independence for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
I was interested to hear the right hon. Member for Torfaen say that he had researched what is done in other nations around the world. I think that we need to look at other nations that have a tradition of British law, such as Canada or perhaps South Africa, and those that do not. I do not think that any country has ever embarked on a process of giving away powers in such an ad hoc fashion. We need to start thinking very carefully and seriously about how we can all agree on a way to prevent devolution leading to fragmentation and the break-up of the Union.
Finally, I want to talk about energy, which the Welsh Affairs Committee takes very seriously. We have looked at issues such as shale gas, but I think that we should also look at nuclear and renewables. The shadow Secretary of State has decried my so-called flat-earth speech. I am sceptical about a lot of what is said about global warming, but I think that many of us agree that taxing carbon and increasing energy prices in a way that hits manufacturing industries in Wales, including some very notable ones, might lead them to consider closing down and taking their business elsewhere, which is something none of us wants to see. We therefore need to think very carefully about any energy policy that will make it harder for our manufacturing industries.
I have very much enjoyed carrying out my role as Chair of the Welsh Affairs Committee and working with hon. Members, on both side of the House. I thoroughly agree with the sentiment expressed here that we need to continue having a Secretary of State dedicated to Wales and—dare I say it?—a robust Select Committee that ensures that whoever has that post is doing a good job.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
The message I have heard is one of optimism. I might have to disappoint the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies), whom I thought was about to apply to be the Labour candidate in his constituency, because we already have a splendid candidate there. I welcome his epiphany in calling for nationalisation. I am sure that he will be calling for the nationalisation of the top 50 companies next, on his continuing journey to the far left, which I have watched for some time, having known him since he was a schoolboy.
There is so much that is great going on. One of the joys of having been born when I was is rejoicing in the Welsh history that I have lived through. I remember the depressing history of the campaign for hunan-lywodraeth i Gymru through organisations such as Undeb Cymru Fydd and how it collapsed on 16 January 1896 at a meeting in Newport of the two federations of the Liberal party, which of course was almighty at that time. Lloyd George was not allowed to speak, because they were terrified of his persuasive oratory. A Liberal Member for Merthyr stuffed the meeting with people opposed to independence for Wales. We could well have gone down a very different path. The result was that Lloyd George lost enthusiasm and went to campaign against the Boer war.
The story of Wales throughout the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries was one of people going to Westminster, having made all kinds of promises about how they would serve Wales, only to disappoint after being seduced by this place. It is a matter of great pride that I have been in this building when we delivered. My generation has delivered in Wales, and I believe that will eventually lead to strong government, if not independence. We are in a situation in which the forces are moving beyond our control. It will not be little agreements that do it; it will be the force of what happens in Scotland at the general election. Consider the extraordinary change in Ireland when the Queen turned up in a green frock and went to Croke park to bow her head in penitence at the site of an atrocity there. That had a profound effect on Irish thinking. Of course, 200 years of antagonism did not disappear, but it certainly had a great effect. I believe we will see a pattern based on the federation of five nations—not within 10 years, but possibly in 20 to 25 years—and we will have an asymmetric form of devolution that will be appropriate for each one.
I am proud of what is happening in my own city. We have gone through a few rough years, but there is room for great optimism. Our problems are temporary and we can deal with them, but our great treasures and strengths are permanent and will remain, including the mixed character of the people, which is made up of many nations and has a special vigour and enthusiasm and a robust personality. We also have great institutions, including the Celtic Manor. Even though the Prime Minister cannot see the difference between Newport and Newport far west, which is sometimes called Cardiff—he mixed them up yesterday—we have a wonderful hinterland, including the glorious Roman treasures in Caerleon, which represent great strength and beauty in the city. The future is bright.
We have a chance to celebrate our Cymreictod. What a change there has been! In 1962, Saunders Lewis, in his great lecture, “Tynged yr Iaith”, talked about a time in this century when no one would speak Welsh, and Islwyn Ffowc Elis’s book, “Wythnos yng Nghymru Fydd”, was similarly about the death of the Welsh language. But it has not died—it is in vigorous form. A couple of months ago I had the great joy of visiting Ysgol Gwynllyw and talking with the fluent sixth-formers about all the political problems of our day in great detail. It is possible to go to any school in Newport and have a conversation with pupils in simple Welsh at the very least. That is a great triumph. The first school that taught through the medium of Welsh in Newport had 12 pupils in 1970 and they are now 50 years old, and we will see very soon the opening of a secondary school in Newport.
David T. C. Davies
I think that school was Clytha primary, which I attended. At that time, the problem was that there was a separate Welsh unit and not much interaction between the two, but I think that has also changed for the better and is supported by Members on both sides of the House.
Paul Flynn
Yes, it was St John’s, the old school on the other side of the river, which became part of Clytha primary.
The school was set up in the teeth of all kinds of very powerful opposition, but some of those first pupils who are now 50 years old are now teachers of Welsh themselves in other schools. We are seeing the great triumph of the Welsh language and the great strength that it has now. That is very moving and we should celebrate it. Whenever people ask, “What’s special about the Welsh language?”, I point to its beauty. On Radio 4 last Saturday, somebody who teaches it in Brighton talked about the cadence of the language. Listen to the magic of the words, the soft, seductive words:
“Nant y Mynydd groyw loyw, Yn ymdroelli tua’r pant, Rhwng y brwyn yn sisial ganu; O na bawn i fel y nant!”
The language is also muscular:
“Argoed, Argoed y mannau dirgel, Ble’r oedd dy fryniau, dy hafanu dyfnion, Dy drofau tywyll, dy drefi tawel?”
Oral Answers to Questions
David T C Davies Excerpts(9 years, 8 months ago)
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Stephen Crabb
I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman has referred to the valleys electrification project. It was a great achievement of this Government, along with the Welsh Government, to secure a deal to deliver electrification not just of the great western line to Swansea but, crucially, through to the valleys communities as well. We look forward to work starting on that project, subject to the Welsh Government agreeing the details, in 2018-19.
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is not just Jobs Growth Wales but the coalition Government’s long-term economic plan that has delivered the unprecedented falls in youth unemployment, and that the binary choice that will be presented to the people of Wales on 7 May is between jobs, growth and prosperity and debt, deficit and dole queues?
Stephen Crabb
As ever, the Chairman of the Welsh Affairs Committee is exactly right. He expresses the situation perfectly. What puts at risk all the great progress we have made in cutting long-term and youth unemployment across Wales is the prospect of a Labour Government who have no plan and no vision for the Welsh economy.
Oral Answers to Questions
David T C Davies Excerpts(9 years, 11 months ago)
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Stephen Crabb
The biggest danger to Wales, including north Wales, would be to abandon our clear long-term economic plan, which I know Labour Members are calling for. When I spent two days in north Wales on a business tour last week, I visited many Labour Members’ constituencies and saw just how dynamic the private sector is. Businesses in that sector are leading the economic recovery, so they are the ones that we should be saluting.
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
I commend my right hon. Friend on his commitment to the M4 relief road. The Severn bridge will link on to that relief road, so will he consider the importance of having a plan for when it returns to public ownership in approximately 2018?
Stephen Crabb
My hon. Friend talks about an important issue that has been raised by Members on both sides of the House in recent months. I commend his work personally and that of his Select Committee on examining the impact of Severn bridge tolls on businesses and consumers in Wales. I share his concerns about the levels of the tolls. I want a long-term plan in place, so I look forward to discussing his ideas with him in more detail.
Government Policies (Wales)
David T C Davies Excerpts(9 years, 11 months ago)
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Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)
I beg to move,
That this House expresses deep concern at the impact of the Government’s policies on Wales; notes the Government’s real-terms reduction of the Welsh budget by £1.5 billion; notes that Wales currently suffers from the lowest average rates of pay in Britain and has the highest proportion of individuals affected by cuts to social security including the bedroom tax; further notes that Wales suffers the highest energy bills in the UK and that these, along with low pay, have compounded the cost of living crisis in Wales; and calls on the Government to immediately scrap the bedroom tax, freeze energy bills and undertake measures to increase pay rates in Wales.
When devolution was created in 1997-98 by the last Labour Government, it was very much intended as a measure to make Wales more accountable, to give us a greater level of self-determination, and to see autonomy for the Welsh people and bespoke Welsh solutions for Welsh problems. The unspoken motivation behind that, especially in Wales where the miners strike was so fresh in our memories, was to protect the Welsh people from the prospects of a future Tory Government. Pit closures, steel closures, the legacy of de-industrialisation and people shunted on to incapacity benefit to languish there for so many years, were fresh in our minds, and they were absolutely behind the idea that we would, with devolution, have an additional bulwark against the destructive economic philosophy of the Tory party.
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
Is the hon. Gentleman admitting here in this Chamber that one of the reasons Labour supported devolution was not because it wanted to change the constitution, but because it thought that it could control the Welsh Assembly at all times?
Owen Smith
No. We had campaigned for devolution for 100 years, and it was absolutely about changing the accountability to the Welsh people, making all the obvious constitutional changes. However, for many of us on the left in Wales it was also about guaranteeing a Government who would to a greater extent reflect our values and defend Welsh people against the values of the hon. Gentleman’s party and this Government. Four and a half years on from the return of a Tory Government, we now have an opportunity to measure exactly what the impact of that Government has been and, six months from the next election, think hard about how effective those defences have been.
Stephen Crabb
I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that it is about values. It is about our values as a Government who are not content to see 200,000 people in Wales who have never worked a day in their lives. That is why I celebrate the fact that there are 38,000 more people in work in Wales since the election and 47,000 fewer households where nobody works. What does that mean in real terms? It means more kids in Wales growing up seeing a mum or dad going out to work. Opposition Members, who go under the name of “Labour”, should be championing that.
David T. C. Davies
Is my right hon. Friend aware that this debate is not about the economy, but about the effect of Government policies on Wales. Does it surprise him that the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith), who spoke very entertainingly—I look forward to coming back to it—for nearly 40 minutes did not once mention the national health service or the effect of Government policies on health?
Stephen Crabb
My hon. Friend makes an important intervention and we look forward to hearing more from him later in this important debate. It is about values, but over the last week, the mask has finally slipped—yet another example of Labour’s mask slipping. We saw it last week when a member of the Opposition Front-Bench team saw fit to ridicule someone’s home just because they had a white van parked outside it and were displaying the flag of St George. The Labour party can no longer with any credibility claim to be the workers party. It is the party of the liberal metropolitan elite, that sneers at hard-working people. Today Labour Members should be on their feet championing workers in their constituencies —[Interruption.]
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
Once again, we have listened for about 40 minutes to the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) treat us to his tales of economic doom and gloom and woe. It must be getter harder and harder for him to maintain that in the light of the ever-better financial news. I had an interesting morning in the run-up to this debate: I decided to read through a few of his previous speeches. I went back to 2010, when he quoted an Oxford Economics report, saying that the coalition Government would be able to create only 4,000 private sector jobs. I wonder whether he remembers saying that. The reality is that so far, over the course of this Parliament, we have created 100,000 private sector jobs in Wales alone. In the same speech he talked about net increases in unemployment continuing until 2025. The reality, of course, is that unemployment is now at its lowest level since 2008.
In a subsequent speech on 11 November 2011, the hon. Gentleman spoke of a 4% contraction in GDP over the course of the Parliament. The reality is that so far over the course of this Parliament we have had a GDP of 7.8%, and I got that figure from the House of Commons Library earlier today. We have the fastest-growing economy in the developed world. I am so proud to be standing here supporting the Prime Minister and the excellent Secretary of State for Wales he has just appointed.
Chris Bryant
If we are going to talk about speeches that other Members have made, I remember the Prime Minister saying that the deficit would be cut completely by the end of this Parliament. I remember him saying that the debt would be falling. I remember him saying that net migration to this country would fall below 100,000. None of those things has come to pass, so let us talk about the Government’s failures.
Chris Bryant
The Prime Minister even said that no disabled people would be affected by the bedroom tax, but two thirds of those affected by it in Wales are disabled.
David T. C. Davies
If the hon. Gentleman would be kind enough to give way, I will talk about those things. First I will leave him to think about this headline: “UK unemployment rate falls to lowest level since 2008”. That is from The Guardian just a few weeks ago. But let us talk about the debt, because after all, we inherited a debt of around £800 billion.
David T. C. Davies
Yes, it has gone up. We also had a deficit of £160 billion, and we have not managed to do as much as we wanted to do with that. I would have liked to see us do more with it. But the reality is that there has been no coherence from Labour Members, because every time we have suggested ways to cut the deficit further, they have opposed them. They sit there trying to convince the world that they have a coherent economic policy, when they have condemned us for borrowing money while at the same time demanding that we borrow more. That is why people will not trust them with the economy.
The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) talked about immigration. Again, I would have liked to see us go further, but immigration from outside the European Union has been reduced significantly, and we cannot do anything about immigration from within the European Union—he should know, because he is the biggest Europhile in this place. We cannot do anything about freedom of movement, but we are going to offer a referendum on it.
David T. C. Davies
I will give way in a moment.
The motion mentions energy. The hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty) made a good point about the impact of carbon taxes on steel production and other manufacturing. What he did not want to say, of course, is that those policies were brought about by the previous Labour Government, who swallowed hook, line and sinker the environmentalist line that carbon dioxide is causing runaway global warming and began imposing billions and billions of pounds in carbon taxes on manufacturing and on home owners. That is one of the reasons why energy bills are so high for home owners and manufacturers. That is why I welcome the fact that the Government have said that they will start rolling them back. I would like to see them rolled back even further, to be honest, but that in no way undermines the enormous support I feel for the Government at the moment or the anger I feel towards those in the UK Independence party—although not those in this House at the moment—who put forward simplistic solutions to very complicated problems. That is why it is important that we have a moderate, centre-right party proposing sensible policies for the people of this country.
Interestingly, even though this debate is about the effect of Government policies in Wales, not once during his 40-minute speech did the hon. Member for Pontypridd mention the effect of Government health policies on Wales. They have had a pretty significant effect, because large numbers of patients in Wales are now trying to get out of the Labour-run Welsh NHS and get their treatment in England, where they will be looked after by the coalition-run NHS.
Mark Tami
The hon. Gentleman makes that statement as if there was just a Welsh health service and an English health service; it is a cross-border health service, and that is particularly true in constituencies such as mine. Indeed, the Countess of Chester hospital exists only on the basis that it covers Deeside and Chester, so the whole idea that people are somehow fleeing across the border is based on spurious figures and is totally wrong.
David T. C. Davies
I am not using figures that are totally wrong, because since 2012, in my own area, the Aneurin Bevan university health board has been doing everything possible to treat people in Wales and prevent people who were previously being treated in England from continuing to get treatment there. People are aware of moves such as the cancer drugs fund, which has allowed patients in England to enjoy the benefits of life-extending drugs such as Avastin. That is denied to patients in Wales by the Labour-run NHS. I met some of those patients outside No. 10 Downing street last week when they presented a petition to the Prime Minister about the problems being caused to them by the Labour-run Welsh NHS service. They have had to move—to sell up their houses or move into friends’ houses in England—to get access to the higher standards, lower waiting lists, fewer cuts and better ambulance service response times that are being delivered by this coalition Government.
David T. C. Davies
It is actually not the hon. Gentleman’s health service. There is a health service in England and there is a separate health service in Scotland, in Wales and in Northern Ireland, as a result of devolution. He should be aware of that because his party destroyed the truly national UK health service and brought in regional health services. Of course there are hospitals that serve people in Wales on the English side and hospitals on the English side that serve people coming the other way, and that is a good thing. However, many people’s access is now being prevented, and they certainly do not have the automatic right of access that they would enjoy in England.
Owen Smith
I am grateful, because we have to correct these facts. He knows that the volume of people coming from England to Wales has increased over the past few years, whereas the volume of people going from Wales to England has decreased. He also knows that on cancer, for example, the health board he mentions, Aneurin Bevan, performs better than the one over the border, so quite why people would cross the border for worse care, I do not know.
David T. C. Davies
The hon. Gentleman will know that most people on the English side of the border who have been treated in Wales have no choice about that. They are registered with GPs connected with the Aneurin Bevan health board, so they have absolutely no choice in the matter. Many of them have formed action groups of English patients who are treated in Wales and do not want to be because they know they will get a better standard of health care in England. One of those is called Action For Our Health; if the hon. Gentleman has a smartphone, he can look it up. He ought to know about these facts. He talks about cancer. The figures for urgent cases are pretty similar, within a percentage point of each other, but he did not mention diagnostic times, which are significantly worse in Wales than in England, or the cancer drugs fund. It is a pity that he did not want to talk about the NHS in his 40-minute speech.
The hon. Gentleman did not want to talk about education, either. One of the few advantages of the Welsh Assembly is that it has allowed us to make simple comparisons. We can now see the difference between what a Conservative-led coalition Government can offer and what can be delivered by a Labour Government. We know that Wales now has the worst educational rankings in the whole of the United Kingdom after 16 years of Labour domination.
The Labour Government have a terrible record on the economy—that is pretty well known—but they also have a shameful record on public services. I am looking forward to the next general election, so that we can remind people that tax-and-spend Labour cannot be trusted with the economy and cannot be trusted with public services, either. As somebody who used to drive a van—I am glad to say that it was a blue one as well—we will never, ever sneer at hard-working people who want to go out and better themselves, work hard, and pay taxes. We are the true party of working people. At that election, I look forward to fighting alongside the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Wales to make sure that next time round we have a truly Conservative Government who can deliver even better policies for the people of Wales.
Dr Hywel Francis (Aberavon) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams), who is a very valued member of the Welsh Affairs Committee. When I chaired the Committee, he always thanked me for the impartial way in which I did so. In contrast, I say to the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies) in a comradely way, although he may not understand the word, that I look forward to the time when he makes a statement in this House that is impartial and balanced and reflects the unique role of a Chair of a Select Committee.
Dr Francis
No, I will not.
I am not afraid to speak on devolved matters, because they are pertinent to issues we are discussing today. I wish to talk about higher education. In doing so, I declare an interest as honorary chair of the college of arts and humanities in Swansea university. I warmly commend my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) for the way in which he outlined the very difficult circumstances all the people of Wales are suffering as a consequence of the austerity programme. The excellent report by Sheffield Hallam university outlines the severe difficulties that many vulnerable, precarious communities such as Glyncorrwg, Cymmer and Gwynfi in my constituency are now facing, not only as a result of welfare cuts—something the report deals with—but local government cuts being brought forward as a result of UK Government policies.
Despite those difficulties, we have a surviving and prospering steel industry. I am sad that my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) is not in his place, because I want to pay him a compliment. The steel industry is prospering in Wales because of the way in which we have developed a partnership. That partnership was pioneered in the immediate post-devolution period by my right hon. Friend when he was Secretary of State for Wales and I was privileged to be his special adviser. He devised a system of partnership between the UK Government and the Welsh Government. People worried about the time when there would be different political parties in power, but we believed genuinely that that partnership would survive different political parties being in power in Cardiff Bay and Westminster. We live in hope that the idea of partnership will be revived and developed.
I want to move on to the subject of higher education without losing the theme of partnership and the respect agenda. Higher education is of course a devolved matter, but decisions taken here in Westminster have a great bearing on macro-economic issues relating to visas, the need for synergy between England and Wales, and research funding. I am pleased to say that, come next September, my old university will be located in my constituency of Aberavon. Members may not know this, but a second Swansea university campus is being built in Aberavon. Perhaps Swansea university ought to be renamed Aberavon university. The major success of this development, which we should be trumpeting, is based on the partnership between the Welsh Government —I commend in particular the role of the First Minister, Carwyn Jones—and the university. I am not sure whether the Secretary of State has visited the campus—his predecessor did—but he should do so in order to see the role of the UK Government and Europe. The European Investment Bank said that this was the best project of its kind it has ever funded in terms of the interface between business and higher education. That is a remarkable compliment to the interface between my local authority—Neath Port Talbot county borough council, led by my friend Councillor Alun Thomas—and the university.
Perhaps most importantly, despite all the difficulties, that development is a Welsh Government achievement. Sir Terry Matthews, a Welsh businessman on the world stage, is now the chair of the Swansea-based city region. He is a Swansea university graduate, a man of considerable experience—
Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)
After the earlier fireworks from Government Members, I welcome the measured tone adopted by the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies)—one I hope to continue in my contribution.
I welcome this debate because anyone who tuned in to previous Welsh debates might think we were obsessed by constitutional affairs. There seems to be a belief on both sides of the House that constitutional commissions are on the lips of every voter in our country, but that could not be further from the truth. When we talk about Government policy towards Wales, we must look to the future rather than look back.
The world is smaller than it has ever been, and globalisation has brought challenges that would never have been comprehended or conceived of a generation ago. When the children in Islwyn leave school, they will no longer compete only with their contemporaries from Cardiff, London or Manchester, but with those living in Puni, Bangalore and Peking. Equally, the emerging green technologies will lead to those children going into jobs that we cannot currently conceive of. For Government, this presents a challenge: either we embrace globalisation or we turn our backs and hold back the tide. In real terms, it means that we either continue to waste our time tying ourselves up in constitutional knots, which unfortunately we have done for the last 15 years, or we train our people and equip them with the skills to compete in the global economy.
Let us be straight: despite what many people would have us believe, Wales is not some backwater in which people are on the breadline, queuing up in soup kitchens. This view of Wales, and particularly of the valleys I represent, is a distorted picture that is no way helpful to our self-image or self-confidence.
On the site of the last mine to close in Islwyn—Oakdale—stands General Dynamics, a top 100 contractor company, with nearly £20 billion in sales annually. To those who want to paint the Labour party as anti-business, let me point out that it was the last Labour Government and the stable economic conditions that led General Dynamics to choose Wales as its base. It has recently been awarded the contract for the Scout SV vehicle, securing a further 500 jobs. In July this year, I was pleased to open the new Edge centre, which allows it to share its expertise with small and medium-sized businesses—not just in Wales but across the country. It also has partnerships with universities, which means it can access the unique skills and expertise to be found in those universities.
Just down the road, in Newbridge, is Axiom, a large manufacturer whose profits have grown, and which is opening new markets across the world. In an economy still reliant on the public sector, Just Love Food, a nut-free, allergy-free cake manufacturer also based in Oakfield, has contracts with supermarket chains such as Tesco and Sainsbury. Of course, Islwyn is home, too, to the Crumlin Pot Noodle mine and to Brace’s Bakery, known throughout the country not only for its bread, but for its Welsh cakes. I would make a shameless plug to anybody: if they want to relocate or start a business, Islywn is an excellent place to do it. That should be the message from Wales.
David T. C. Davies
I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for outlining this wonderful economic news. Did he consult his boss, the shadow Secretary of State for Wales, before he began, as his colleague seems to be earning the epithet of the Eeyore of Welsh politics for the doom and gloom he expounds all the time?
Chris Evans
I must commend the hon. Gentleman for his command of English. That was one of the best insults I have heard in the Chamber. I always liked Eeyore; he was my favourite character in the Winnie the Pooh stories.
Success can only pay dividends for so long. In the past four years, unfortunately, we have heard Ministers consistently talk down the Welsh economy—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for St Albans (Mrs Main) laughs, but when the NHS is talked down, what is being talked down is not what Members perceive. They are not talking down the Welsh Government, but the consultants, the doctors, the cleaners, the nurses and the other people who work in the NHS. Every one of those is seen as the NHS, so what message does it send out when those people are being talked down?
Oral Answers to Questions
David T C Davies Excerpts(10 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Stephen Crabb
Not a single Member of Parliament with a Welsh constituency could stand up and honestly say, hand on heart, that, when they get out and speak to people on the doorsteps on a Saturday morning, those people do not tell them that the quality of their health services is the No. 1 issue facing the people of Wales. It is wrong of the Welsh Labour party to seek to shut down debate about and scrutiny of the performance of its Administration in Cardiff when it comes to the most important issue for the people of Wales.
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
12. Does my right hon. Friend agree that in Wales we have longer waiting times, missed accident and emergency targets since 2009, the worst ambulance response times in the United Kingdom, no cancer drugs fund and a 7% real-terms cut in funding? That is what Labour delivers for the NHS. Does my right hon. Friend agree that only the Conservatives can be trusted to run the national health service?
Stephen Crabb
I do not want anybody holding up any part of Welsh economic and social life as a bad comparator. I want Wales to be leading and people to be holding up Wales as a good example to follow. The truth is—I think the shadow Secretary of State would admit this in private—that the Labour Health Minister in Cardiff needs to get a grip, get on top of this issue and really deliver for the people of Wales.
Wales Bill
David T C Davies Excerpts(10 years, 7 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
As one who has not changed his mind, may I ask whether the Secretary of State was as surprised as I was to read in the Western Mail that Opposition Members are offering to give the Assembly the power to raise income tax by up to 15%—and this only a few years after they all seemed to agree that the Assembly had the tools with which to do the job?
Mr Jones
Indeed: a Damascene conversion. The hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) is a particular enthusiast—he now believes that 15p should be devolved to the Assembly, whereas as recently as 5 February he clearly stated that he did not believe in any tax devolution at all. He will clearly have some interesting explaining to do later in the debate.
Owen Smith
That is a legitimate question. I have said previously that although we will support the devolution of stamp duty land tax and landfill tax and the putting of the income tax question to Wales, we remain concerned about tax competition. Over time, that might result in other parts of Britain wishing for similar degrees of autonomy, thereby reducing the ability of the central Exchequer to pool resources, share risk and redistribute from wealthier to less wealthy parts of Britain. That abiding concern of mine needs to be considered.
David T. C. Davies
Will the hon. Gentleman clarify his point? If he believes that the Assembly should have the power to vary income tax by up to 15p in the pound, there will inevitably be some form of tax competition—unless he wants to give the Assembly the power to prevent anywhere else from varying its levels of income tax.
Owen Smith
That is not inevitable at all. I shall discuss the issue later in my speech, when I will answer the hon. Gentleman in full.
Owen Smith
I presume the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) is pleased, is he, that the poorest of his constituents in Shrewsbury pay more as a proportion of their income as a result of the VAT increases that his party brought in? Or is he not pleased that they are paying that? [Interruption.] If he wants to intervene, I will happily sit down. I give way to his colleague.
David T. C. Davies
I am genuinely confused by what the hon. Gentleman is saying. On the one hand, at the Labour party conference, he went out and said that a Labour Government would give the Assembly the powers to vary tax by up to 15%, which is 15p in the pound. He also made that point earlier on. But now he is saying that he does not believe in any sort of competition and so one would presume that he does not think that the Assembly should be able to vary taxes at all. Unless he is suggesting that the Assembly should now have the power to tell central Government the level at which to set taxation, I do not see how he can hold those two completely contrasting positions. Will he please explain?
Owen Smith
With the greatest respect to the hon. Gentleman, it is not hard to get him confused—I say that with full respect and friendship, of course.
We have reason for our concern, because of the way in which the Tory Government have cut taxes. Labour believes that taxes should be fair and progressive, and accepts that it is not unreasonable for the Government, as they hand over borrowing powers to Wales, to draw some connection between the amount of borrowing and the amount of taxes devolved to Wales, especially given the massive cut to the capital budget. That is why we have decided that we will support the question of the devolution of taxes being put to the people of Wales, subject to what we have called a triple lock.
First, there must be an agreement that there will be fair funding for Wales, and an acknowledgment that, as Holtham has pointed out, convergence is a disbenefit for Wales. Secondly, we need an agreement that the proposal will leave Wales better off, not worse off. The Secretary of State read out the mechanics of indexation earlier on, but failed singularly to address the question I asked, which was whether the Government have conducted any sort of analysis as to whether Wales will be better or worse off, over time, given the volatility of taxes in both places. I suspect that he has not done that analysis and that is why he could not answer my substantive question of whether Wales will be better or worse off.
Mrs James
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention and I will look at those figures again. I must say they were a bit of a challenge and I do not consider myself an unintelligent person. I think there are questions we have to ask, and this is the place to ask them. Again, we come back to the Northern Ireland question: why can Wales not be trusted to raise the money it vitally needs and will be needing in the future? When the formula is applied to Wales, the sums simply do not add up. I seek further clarification from the Minister on this matter.
I appreciate that when stamp duty and landfill tax are devolved, that will provide the Welsh Government with an independent revenue stream worth around £200 million a year. However, these taxes will not be devolved until April 2018, four years from now. We have to have the borrowing powers now. We have to have them set at a level that is appropriate for us in Wales and that will allow us to grow and develop. We need those resources as soon as possible to mitigate the effects of Tory cuts to the Welsh budget. As the party of devolution, we cannot accept a settlement that places us in a restrictive position regarding borrowing.
David T. C. Davies
I thought I heard the hon. Lady say that there had been Tory cuts to the Welsh budget, but as far as I am aware there have not been any cuts whatsoever to the Welsh Assembly budget; it has remained at the same level over the last few years.
Mrs James
Well, out there on the streets life is very tough and I think the hon. Gentleman is wrong. I disagree with him: we are living every day with the effects of Tory budget cuts—long term, every day—and perhaps we should discuss this further in a different debate under different circumstances. I disagree with the hon. Gentleman on that matter.
Wales deserves the very best settlement, so we shall address this Bill positively while being ever conscious that it needs to reflect the evolving demands of an emerging Government. Welsh Labour and the Labour-controlled Welsh Government always have served, and always will serve, the needs of the people of Wales, encouraging greater self-determination for our citizens and ensuring that adequate powers are devolved whenever possible. I welcome the Bill, and I will support aspects of it, but I ask the Minister to address the issue of the borrowing powers.
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
I am not going to be able to give a warm welcome to the Bill; a slightly frosty and formal welcome is probably the best I can manage at the moment. However, I would like to thank the members of the Welsh Affairs Committee, who worked extremely hard throughout January to scrutinise the Bill in time for the Secretary of State to introduce it. I would also like to thank the Secretary of State and his colleagues for accepting some of our recommendations. None the less, we are in a slightly depressing cycle at the moment, in which Members of the Welsh Assembly demand extra powers, a range of non-governmental organisations and other bodies—many of which get some or all of their funding from the Assembly—go along with those demands, then the press jump in, followed by politicians from all the parties.
I was amazed to hear the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) at the Welsh Labour conference the other day making a promise that the Welsh Assembly would have even more powers to raise taxation if he had his way. Today, however, he has come to the Chamber to say that Labour does not like what is on offer, it does not think that there will be a referendum and it does not like tax competition. There is clearly ambiguity there. He is promising greater powers to the Welsh Assembly but at the same time trying to reassure others that those powers would never be implemented. Most people will be able to see through that. At least most parties are able to set out a position.
My own position is clear: I do not want the Assembly to have any kind of tax-raising powers. Members of Plaid Cymru also have a clear position: they want it to have as many powers as possible. We have a right to know what Labour actually stands for in this regard. This worries me, because I know that Labour Members are Unionists, but they do not seem to realise that we are sleepwalking into a disaster. One day, perhaps 10, 20 or 30 years hence, we are going to wake up and discover—[Interruption.] Yes, I will come to the Conservative party in a minute. Hon. Members must contain themselves. We will wake up and discover that we have created de facto independence in Wales simply by giving it one power after another, without making provision to take any of them back.
I am well aware that there are members of the Conservative party, and other parties, who support that course of action. A kind of auction process appears to be taking place, in which one person says, “Let’s give the Welsh Assembly this power”, and all sorts of other people who do not want to be perceived as being opposed to Wales jump on the bandwagon and agree with them. There are members of the Conservative party for whom I have the utmost affection but with whom I completely disagree on this. They seem to take the view that if we give the Assembly enough powers it will hang itself, after which we will be in power. I have a horrible feeling that we might end up dangling alongside it, however, because the Labour party will remain in power to misuse those extra powers, and we will be no better off as a result.
Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)
I hate to see the hon. Gentleman looking so unhappy. I suggest that the solution comes in the form of two excellent words used by the leader of the UK Labour party at the Welsh conference: “reserved powers”.
David T. C. Davies
There is a solution. It is one that we all need to think about, and I hate to say this, but it comes from the Liberal Democrats. It takes the form of a fully federal system. The only way to stop this march towards ever greater powers going to the Welsh Assembly and to Scotland is to draw a line in the sand and say, “Okay, we’re going to give certain powers to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and maybe to London and other regions of England, but we will not go beyond that line. There will be a federal Parliament in London with fully laid-out powers and a constitutional court to deal with any issues over who has what.” That is the only way of stopping this process. If we do not stop it, I can guarantee that we will wake up in 20 or 30 years’ time to find that the whole of the United Kingdom will have fallen apart. At least Scotland is getting a vote on this. It is having a fully fledged debate on the pros and cons of independence. We are not having that in Wales. Instead, the Welsh Assembly is being given a little bit more power every couple of years, and there is no way of getting any of that power back.
Wayne David
The hon. Gentleman has been called early in the debate, so would he be kind enough to clarify whether he is speaking as an individual Back Bencher or as Chair of the Welsh Affairs Committee?
David T. C. Davies
Obviously, I am speaking as an individual Back Bencher; it was hard to get any agreement on certain of these issues from the Welsh Affairs Committee. Let me make it clear that I am not speaking for anyone in the Conservative party either—I am entirely on my own on this one, and probably always will be.
I would like to see one improvement that can be made to this Bill. If we consider the powers the Welsh Assembly has already been given, we can see that it has not done terribly well. We have had the sight of the Welsh Minister for Education and Skills apologising, on Boxing day, I believe it was, for the lamentable state of education. As someone who has been through the state school system there, and who has three children in that system, I feel that very strongly. Nor have we seen a good performance from our national health service. Large numbers of people in cross-border areas such as Monmouthshire are desperate to be treated by the coalition Government-run NHS in England. We have even had the spectacle of a Labour Member of Parliament being banned from going before the Health and Social Care Committee in the Welsh Assembly because she was likely to tell a few home truths that members of that Committee did not want to hear. There has thus been a failure even to carry out the proper scrutiny role.
What I would like to see from this Bill is the opportunity not to take powers away from the Welsh Assembly, but to recognise that where there are problems, individuals ought to be given the choice. Somebody in Wales who is ill and wishes to be treated in England should have the right to access the NHS in England, with the cost of treatment being deducted from the block grant. Similarly, if someone in England was happy to wait twice as long as they needed to and be treated in Wales, they could be treated in Wales, with the cost of their treatment being added to the block grant. That would be an excellent way for us to maintain the commitment to devolution while allowing everyone to enjoy the benefits of a national health service.
Chris Bryant
The hon. Gentleman thinks it would be much better to move to a federal system. My problem is that that denies the history of all the different parts of the United Kingdom: the whole of Ireland was a kingdom until the partition and so on; Scotland had a completely different legal system even when the Crowns were joined together; and Wales never had a separate legal situation. Asymmetric devolution is actually the most sensible way of progressing.
David T. C. Davies
That is a reasonable intervention from the hon. Gentleman. I respond simply by saying that a federal approach is not a perfect solution, but it is probably the least worst solution, and it is better than waking up in 20 years and finding that we have fully fledged independence. Wales has had a slightly separate legal system; I believe that Henry VIII allowed Wales a measure of independence, except for Monmouthshire, which was brought into the Oxford assizes—we do not need to go into that now.
Hywel Williams
I do not want to detain the House, but Wales did have a separate legal system for many centuries, codified by Hywel Dda.
David T. C. Davies
You rightly told me off last time, Madam Deputy Speaker, for misusing the privilege of being called early and I do not wish to be told off again. What I would say is that I am a democrat and I recognise that much of what has been given to Wales has come about as a result of referendums. What is on offer in the Bill regarding stamp duty and land tax is not that significant. As for giving borrowing powers, I am a pragmatist and if they are going to be used for the M4, I would very much like to see an M4 relief road, so I will willingly go along with that. And of course, income tax powers will not be devolved without a further referendum. I would certainly be encouraging people to vote no in such a referendum, and perhaps for the first time I would be on a different side of the argument from the Secretary of State. Nevertheless, I recognise democracy and I recognise that he is offering a referendum. I appreciate the changes in the Bill which he has made as a result of the scrutiny by the Welsh Affairs Committee. My welcome, frosty and formal as it is, stays in place and I look forward to seeing the Bill progress through the House.
Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab)
I rarely agree with the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies), but I always get great entertainment from his sincere and intelligent extremism. He made a very thoughtful speech, for which he deserves credit, but may I correct him on one point about the national health service? I think he will find that more people cross the border from England to be treated in Welsh hospitals than go the other way.
David T. C. Davies
That is true, but these people do not do that by choice; they have no choice, and many of them are actively campaigning to be treated back in England and do not want to be treated in Wales.
Mr Hain
The facts seem to speak for themselves. We can have an argument about the degree to which people can express a preference, but the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues, led by the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister, persistently rant against the Welsh national health service as part of their war on Wales and completely distort the facts on the ground.
Mr Harper
I agree. All I did at Wales questions last week was raise a perfectly reasonable point on behalf of my constituents. I quoted something that the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley, a valued Opposition Member, had said—it is in Hansard—and then the shadow Secretary of State suggests that I asked something I did not, and pretends that it is all a smear. That is simply not the case; I am a Member of Parliament raising concerns on behalf of my constituents. The previous devolution settlement was not well thought through and I want to ensure that this one is. I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for taking a great deal of care with the Bill.
David T. C. Davies
As a proudly Welsh MP, I am very grateful for all the support we can get in drawing attention to the state of the NHS in Wales. What does my hon. Friend think of the proposal to amend the Bill to allow Welsh patients who wish to be treated by the coalition Government-run NHS to cross the border, with the funding taken off the Welsh block grant?
Mr Harper
I have not had time to study that proposal in detail, but on the face of it allowing patients anywhere in the United Kingdom to have choice is very sensible. That is not a policy that the Welsh Government prefer. I think they said in a letter they sent to me that they prefer “Patient voice, not choice.” They will not allow people to have choice, but they can have a voice, which will then be ignored as the Welsh Government proceed as they want to anyway.
Mr Williams
I share that sentiment and referendums can also lead to people in different parties working together to make a compelling case. We would all applaud that, and I think even the good people of Monmouthshire voted yes?
Mr Williams
Sorry, not quite, but the vote was much better than before. I think there was a bit of a swing of opinion. We certainly welcome the fact that people along the borders voted in bigger numbers for this, although I stand corrected. I am still slightly shocked by the glowing appraisal my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies) gave of Liberal Democrat policy on federalism; he commended us on that. However, I take on board the point made by the hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones).
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
It is always a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb). It is interesting that he should mention Ukraine at a time when Victor Yanukovych is recommending referendums across Ukraine for more autonomy for its regions.
The Bill is, at best, a pig’s breakfast, but when there is nothing else on the table I guess that the parties will coalesce around it. To be fair, one reason why it is a pig’s breakfast is that the constitutional settlement across the United Kingdom is diverse. The settlements in Northern Ireland, London and Wales—
Geraint Davies
I am coming to Monmouth in a moment—and Scotland are very different. It is worth bearing in mind that it might not be timely to make concrete decisions when we do not know the verdict of the Scottish people on becoming independent. We do not know whether that decision will gather pace for the devolutionary process in Wales.
David T. C. Davies
I just wondered whether the hon. Gentleman could clarify whether the Bill is a dog’s breakfast or a pig’s ear. I have never heard of a pig’s breakfast before.
Geraint Davies
It is a new constitutional phenomenon that I have just introduced. I am sure the hon. Gentleman will delight in it, being a person who indulges in that sort of thing.
If I may reference Scotland for a moment, rational and emotional powers are at play. There are people who thought that Scottish independence was going to go down the tube because of currency, the EU and inward investment, but now, of course, the wind is blowing in a different direction. The people of Scotland feel that they are being told that they cannot live without us and there are the emotions of divorce, so there is a mixture of rational economic argument and emotion. The feeling in Wales is that, rather than facing years and years of Tory austerity, we want to decide our own thing. The reality is that if Scotland leaves the UK we will end up with more Conservative Governments, because of the residual demography, and that will change the appetite for devolution.
Plaid Cymru would obviously like Wales to go down the road of independence and it sees this as a stepping stone. It talks about fair deals and fair funding for Wales even in the knowledge—this is an important point on what is behind the Tory agenda, too—that the difference between taxes raised versus expenditure in Wales is about £15 billion. The Conservative plot is to reduce the number of Welsh MPs, give borrowing and tax raising powers to Wales and forget about giving Wales its fair share of both revenue and capital. In the case of Scotland, the difference, coincidently, is also about £15 billion, but it currently makes up that difference in oil.
We therefore have a situation where it is convenient for everybody to go along this path, but the people of Wales want fair funding now. What that means in relation to the Barnett formula, as has been mentioned, is an extra £300 million a year. Wales should have the same needs-based formula as the English regions. It is not difficult to work that out, so that should just move forward.
With regard to capital, like other parts of Britain outside London and the south-east, Wales gets a small fraction of the investment per head that London gets—London gets about £5,000 per head and Wales gets about £500 per head. That is a problem for everyone outside London. If we migrated some of that investment outside London, we could put pressure on the system to make it more balanced. Britain is quite unusual in that respect. In Germany, for example, Berlin does not dominate Munich or Dusseldorf, so there is no necessity for that balancing.
If the response in Wales is, “Well, we are not getting enough money to do our own thing, so we will have to borrow it,” who will pay for that borrowing? That is the real fear, because there is no money on the table for that. Then there is the false analysis that the borrowing needs to be hypothecated against an income stream from income tax or other taxes, and that the amount of borrowing should be determined by the size of those streams. Frankly, that is just false. It is not the case that in order to justify more borrowing we need more income tax devolution. It is the case that the amount of money Wales will get in future, as the Secretary of State argues, will be broadly the same; it will not be distorted by this method.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr Hain) and I fear that we will end up with less money over time because the tax take per penny of income tax is 70% of what it is in England. If we assume for a moment that the global amount of money remains the same, then where does the extra money for paying back the borrowing come from? Well, it comes from nowhere. The reality is that the money would be paid back by top-slicing revenue, which means top-slicing the amount of money for services. That is what will happen if Wales does not get its fair share of UK funding.
We have already seen the signs and symptoms of the stealthy stranglehold that the Tories want to put on Wales, with the recent U-turns on the valleys lines. All of a sudden we hear, “Here you are. You can borrow some money.” A moment ago there was going to be electrification from Paddington to Cardiff and then through to Swansea, including the valleys, but all of a sudden we are told, “Well, the small print states that the Welsh Assembly has to do that, and it can do that by borrowing.” In fact, the commitment to go through to Swansea is not even fulfilled. The Government said that they would electrify the line from Paddington to Cardiff and then from Bridgend to Swansea, but they will not do the bit in the middle. If the Welsh Assembly Government say that they will not do that because they have another priority, which they might have, as is their right, we will have a bit in the middle that is not electrified, and that is not electrification through to Swansea, so the Government have broken their word.
Welsh Affairs
David T C Davies Excerpts(10 years, 8 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Albert Owen
I take that point, and the Secretary of State may now find that an attractive view from his window, but at one time he did not want it to go ahead. He would not have been able to see it from his window, nor would he have been able to meet many of the targets that we are making progress towards in a low-carbon economy. I have always thought that offshore wind has a great future, although I am a little less certain about onshore wind, because of the sheer size of some of the turbines.
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
Given that offshore wind normally needs a strike price of about £150 per megawatt-hour, is the hon. Gentleman as happy to argue that people should be willing to pay more for their electricity as he is to argue for those wind farms to be built?
Albert Owen
We need a mix. We need a base load and we need variable energy. If we do not have interconnectors and we are producing too much energy in the summer, when peak demand is less, we cannot switch off nuclear power stations and it is expensive to switch off gas. It is easier to switch off variable supplies such as renewables can provide, including wind. There is an initial cost, but those costs are coming down, and I believe that with economies of scale—as with the strike price for nuclear or for any other renewable—the price will decrease as the sector matures. In the long term, bills will be cheaper if we get a steady supply of low carbon energy.
Nuclear power is also part of the mix. I welcome the conversion of the Secretary of State to wind power and the conversion of the Liberal Democrats to nuclear power. I hope that that means that the three larger parties, two of which form the Government now and one of which I hope will form the next Government, will be consistent in the future.
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
I agreed with many of the things the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) said, although I disagreed in certain important respects. I agree that of course it is possible to be proud to be Welsh, proud to be British and at the same time proud to be European, but when I say I am proud to be European, I mean I am proud to be part of the Europe that gave us the renaissance and the enlightenment values that have spread democracy over all the world and which people across the world look up to—[Interruption.] Yes, even if they do not seem to be following them in some parts of the world. What I am not proud of, however, is the European Union, because that is an entirely artificial construct which is completely undemocratic and, in the manner in which it goes about its business, is going against the values that Europe has given us over many hundreds of years. But I am, of course, proud to be Welsh and proud to be British.
Being proud to be Welsh does not mean having to give absolute support to the Welsh Assembly and to support giving it extra powers every couple of years, which is what seems to be happening at the moment. I sometimes wish I was as good at being able to predict the movement of the stock market as I am at being able to predict what is going to happen whenever somebody sets up a body to look at giving more powers to the Welsh Assembly. As I made clear in a Welsh Affairs Committee meeting, it was obvious from the start—before Mr Silk, who I admire personally, although I suspect I disagree with him politically on many things, traversed Wales, speaking at empty village halls the length and breadth of the nation—what was going to happen: at the end of the process, Mr Silk was simply going to recommend giving yet another tranche of powers to the Welsh Assembly, which is exactly what has happened.
Mr MacNeil
Does the hon. Gentleman see any benefit for the Welsh tourism industry if the Welsh Assembly or a Parliament in Wales had powers over VAT? Could it cut VAT to compete with independent nations such as Ireland or France, which were cited by the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen)? Is it not bizarre to complain about something and then not want the power to do anything about it?
David T. C. Davies
No, I think that, as people on different sides of the political fence recognise, great difficulties would be caused if, in an area where most people live along the border, one side cut VAT while the other kept it at the original level. That differential would create enormous economic problems. What I would be interested in doing is looking at the economic case for a cut in VAT for tourism across the whole of the United Kingdom, or at least across all those bits that wish to remain in the United Kingdom, and retain the benefits that come from that.
When we consider what the Assembly has actually managed to achieve, we should be very cautious about giving it further powers, particularly over policing, which is what is being discussed as a result of Silk 2. Let us consider the areas where the Welsh Assembly already has complete powers, such as inward investment. Inward investment has been a disaster over the years since the Assembly was set up. We went from being one of the most successful regions of the United Kingdom in attracting foreign inward investment to being the second lowest region. There are a number of reasons for that, many of which we heard when the Select Committee investigated this issue. We heard stories about people who were set up in so-called embassies in other parts of the world but could not even speak the language of the country they were supposed to be selling Wales to, and people who were not seen or heard of. We heard stories from Brussels that, while Scotland—to be fair—and Yorkshire and other regions of the United Kingdom had been very successful in raising their profile, nobody had ever heard of anyone from Wales. At the same time we have had problems with education, which is an important factor when companies decide where to locate. I believe there is also an issue with energy, which the hon. Member for Ynys Môn also mentioned and which I shall come back to shortly. Certainly, however, the record on inward investment has been a complete and utter disaster.
Education is now a story not just for the Welsh papers, but for the national papers. The PISA—programme for international student assessment—results were a disaster for those of us who have children in the state education system, as I do, and I went through it myself in Wales in the 1980s. The latest GCSE results for English came out today. I quickly looked at them on the BBC website and apparently they are much worse than expected, although the Welsh Assembly is once again quick to try to distance itself from the poor results.
I believe there is a particular problem, which was summed up by Lee Waters. He worked, I believe, for a number of Labour Ministers in the Welsh Assembly. He is a man of many qualities, but not voting Conservative is not one of them; it is a shame that he does not. He hit the nail on the head today in an article in The Times when he wrote about the fact that the Welsh Assembly was deliberately trying to do things differently in areas where it had the power just because it could—not because it could do a better job, but simply to try to show that it was not going to follow what England does.
Ministers might not like me saying this, but if we compare what has gone on in England with what has gone on in Wales, we can see that the English education reforms have simply built on the reforms that Tony Blair put in place but was unable to carry out. I read his memoirs with great interest, and I was struck by the way in which his health and education policies were reflected almost exactly in the policies that were in the Conservative manifesto. It is therefore quite bizarre that Labour subsequently attacked our policies so vigorously, given that the ideas came from Labour itself.
Hywel Williams
What does the hon. Gentleman make of this week’s press reports that Labour will, if it ever gets back into government, adopt the reforms that are being promoted for England by the Secretary of State for Education?
David T. C. Davies
I very much welcome that, of course. It is not particularly surprising, however, because reforms such as the introduction of academies, the use of the private sector and the better use of inspections were all being suggested by Tony Blair. He started to implement them under Andrew Adonis but, for one reason or another, was unable to complete them. It is not in the least bit surprising that Labour Members now recognise that we have built on their reforms, and extended and widened them a little. Why would they want to go back on them? The problem is that we have two Labour parties in the United Kingdom. In England, we have a sort of new Labour, which to some extent recognises the need to deal with business and the private sector, if only so that it can get taxes off them in order to spend them. In Wales, we have a kind of old Labour, red in tooth and claw, that still has not woken up to the fact that the 1970s finished about 40 years ago.
David T. C. Davies
I would be delighted to give way to a true representative of old Labour.
Chris Evans
What can I say to that? Does the hon. Gentleman not also believe that there are two Conservative parties, judging by the comments and actions of the leader of the Conservative party in the Welsh Assembly?
David T. C. Davies
There are certainly differences. I will speak for myself, and others may follow. I think I am right in offering my congratulations to the hon. Gentleman. Has he recently had a child? He is looking a bit worried—perhaps it was someone further along the Opposition Benches. [Interruption.] I am told that it was actually the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards). My congratulations to him. He, too, will no doubt be experiencing the state education sector in Wales shortly.
My recommendation is that we look at what has gone wrong in that sector. There are not enough schools inspections, and far too much notice is given of those that are taking place. That practice has been done away with in England. I worked with the police for many years, as Members know. We could not have a situation in which a policy custody unit was told weeks in advance that it was going to be inspected; people just turned up and did it. That is how it should be with schools, and with hospitals. That is not what is happening in Wales, however.
I have been told by head teachers, and by schools improvement officers, that it is difficult for people to go in and assess how a teacher is doing in a classroom because the unions do not like it. Similarly, the unions do not like league tests, or testing of any other sort, and they are making it very difficult for people to go in and make the kind of changes that are required.
Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)
I spent 12 years working in the classroom, and I am still a paid-up member of a teaching trade union. My experience of the unions is that they were certainly not obstacles to the inspection regime. I want to probe the hon. Gentleman a little further on the question of education in Wales. What does he see as the main explanation for those PISA results, and for the failings in English literacy and mathematics in particular? Will he tell us what the main failings are that he has identified, rather than giving us the kind of jargon that he was articulating just now?
David T. C. Davies
I do not think that I was using jargon; I was spelling it out in fairly simple English. But okay, I will give the hon. Gentleman a list of things. First, I am told that it is difficult for head teachers to go in and assess teachers. They are allowed to do it only a couple of times a year, and they cannot simply walk into a classroom. I have been told that by two senior educationists in Wales, working in totally separate schools, over the past few weeks. Either they are wrong or the hon. Gentleman is wrong.
I have also been told that schools get a great deal of notice before an inspection takes place, and I think that is wrong. Inspectors ought to be able to go in without any notice whatsoever and find out what is going wrong. I know for a fact that when I was in the Welsh Assembly the unions and everyone else seemed to be totally against testing, but testing is a good thing. If my children are failing in tests, I want to know about it and to get involved. There is also a problem with sickness, whereby too many teachers are taking too many sick days in schools in Wales and that is not being properly investigated afterwards by the personnel departments. It is also far too difficult to get rid of bad teachers who are not up to the job. That situation can occur in any walk of life, but in most others someone who is not up to a job will be got rid of by someone higher up. That does not seem to happen in teaching. I do not think all that is jargon; those are fairly simple matters.
May I make one last point on this, which is the most important one of all? In England, there is a recognition that parents have a right to have some say over their children’s education, and they can exercise that most drastically by taking their children out of the state system and putting them into some kind of an academy. As a parent, I welcome that, because it is my taxpayer’s money that is being spent and I ought to have a say. If the school is not up to the job, I ought to have the right to take my child out and put them somewhere else. I do not have that right in Wales, and that is taking away an incentive for teachers to improve.
Alun Cairns
My hon. Friend is making a powerful speech, which is interesting in terms of the direction that the questions are coming from. Does he share my concern that the hands of the Liberal Democrats, and even those of Plaid Cymru, are not necessarily clean in this area, because they will have been part of the coalition during some of the formative years, when some of the education policies were put in place?
David T. C. Davies
My hon. Friend is, of course, absolutely right. The Labour party has generally been the lead party in the Assembly since it was set up, but at other times Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats have been involved.
Mr Mark Williams
I respect the sincerity with which the hon. Gentleman makes those remarks, but I spent 12 years in the classroom and no head teacher was ever prevented from inspecting any lessons I undertook. Does he think that he could add to his list the issue of resources? Our Government have addressed that in part through the pupil premium, and Liberals in Wales, along with Labour colleagues, have pursued a similar policy there. That has been a good measure. Resources are important, but so, too, is maintaining properly motivated and confident staff. One challenge to this Government in Westminster is to retain that well-motivated staff, because the jury is out so far on that.
David T. C. Davies
I am grateful to my friend—I am not sure whether he is an hon. Friend, a colleague or what under this coalition, but he is that—for the compliment. I agree that both those matters are important. On resources, the Government have rightly made cuts to all sorts of departments, except to foreign aid; I could launch into another speech on that, but will not do so. Generally speaking, the Government have had to make cuts—we have done so rightly—to try to balance the books, but we have not cut money to the Welsh Assembly. The amount of money that it has had overall has increased slightly, although people there will try to argue that when inflation is factored in it is not quite as much as it once was. So that is certainly not an issue that can be laid at the door of either of us in this coalition Government. Of course I completely agree that it is important that staff are motivated, and I would regret it if anything were ever done to stop that happening, but there is a difference between de-motivating people and allowing them to get away with things.
May I just move on to health, Madam Deputy Speaker, because it is the other big area of which the Welsh Assembly has control?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)
Order. The hon. Gentleman may certainly move on to health and to his other subjects, but I am sure he must be considering the fact that he has spoken for some time and that many other Members wish to speak. I do not suggest that he stops immediately, but he might like possibly to accelerate his next few points.
David T. C. Davies
I would certainly not want to deprive the House of the wisdom of hearing from anyone else from the Principality, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I wonder whether there is some way you could indicate to me for how much longer you think I should detain the House.
Madam Deputy Speaker
The hon. Gentleman will get the feeling of the House as he progresses. Another few minutes would be fine.
David T. C. Davies
I will try to be brief. I do not even need to say too much about health, because much of it has been said by Labour Members who have been affected. Suffice it to say, a member of my own family has been very badly affected by the second-rate service that we are getting in Wales. In England, people requiring cataract treatment can expect to be seen in 18 weeks. In Wales, it is 36 weeks, so people have to wait for twice as long. The Welsh Assembly are failing to meet even their own poor targets. When I last checked, some 300 people had been waiting more than 36 weeks for cataract treatment, which could easily lead to people going blind. That is an absolute disgrace.
Mr MacNeil
The hon. Gentleman needs to make the distinction. Surely he means not the Welsh Assembly but the Government. If there are health or other issues in the UK, it is the responsibility not of the Parliament but of the Government of the particular Parliament or Assembly.
David T. C. Davies
That is certainly true, and a variety of parties have been in government and should take responsibility, but the Conservative party is not one of them. The Conservative Government in London have overall responsibility for the economy, which affects Wales, and have done a superb job in cutting the deficit, dealing with the way in which benefits were being handed out to one and all, and getting people back into work. That is something of which we can be enormously proud.
We need to look at issues such as the Severn bridge, which was debated yesterday. I thank the hon. Member for Newport East (Jessica Morden) for making such important points on which there could be cross-party agreement in Wales. Something needs to be done about the tolls, and it needs to happen as soon as the concession ends.
Finally, to go back to the points made by the hon. Member for Ynys Môn, we all agree that manufacturing and developing our manufacturing industry are important, but I disagree that that can be done by an overuse of renewable energy, which actually leads to higher overall energy costs. One of the things that manufacturers need now is low energy costs. America, for example, which has halved its energy prices, is seeing manufacturers coming back from places such as the far east. I hope the Government will think carefully about swallowing any more of the green propaganda, which has led to a demise in manufacturing in Wales and elsewhere.
Overall, we have a great deal of which we can be proud. The Labour leader has said that he wishes to learn lessons from Wales. The lesson is that if a person votes Labour in Wales, they will get longer waiting lists, their children will not get as good an education and they can forget about inward investment. If that is the lesson that he wants to shout out to everyone in the run-up to the election, I wish him every success.
Alun Cairns
I accept part of that, but I would also look to areas that have a similar legacy but are not the poorest parts of the United Kingdom. Those are the very same points that, it was argued, would be corrected by Adminstrations that would take decisions much closer to the people. I speak as a pro-devolutionist—I am not against the institution, I am against the governance, the way in which the institution has worked and how policy has been set.
David T. C. Davies
Does my hon. Friend agree that parts of the United Kingdom, such as Northern Ireland, are poorer than Wales, but achieve better outcomes in areas such as education? It must be partly, if not wholly, the responsibility of the Government of the Welsh Assembly that things are so bad there.
Alun Cairns
My hon. Friend is right, because a culture developed in which everything was judged by the amount of money that was put into it, rather than the outcomes that were derived from the investment.
When we talk about reputation, we need to accept that the way in which Wales is currently reported is not positive. I am very saddened by that, but it is largely because the column inches in the press tend to focus on health and education. They are essential to attracting inward investment, because middle and senior management would have to use the national health service and send their children to the schools. That must be added to the way in which Wales is perceived and the challenge that we have in attracting investment thereafter.
Let us focus on education, because without doubt a nation’s future is built on the quality of its education. In the past few years alone, there has been a determination to develop different qualifications, sometimes for the sake of being different, as my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies) mentioned earlier. When there was a drive to introduce greater rigour in GCSE outcomes, in Wales we saw political intervention. In England, politics was kept out of it completely, and the policy direction was set for greater rigour and stronger assessments of standards. In Wales, there was a determination to change that.
What worries me most, as the father of a 10-year-old, is that qualifications in Wales could be seen to be secondary to their counterparts in England. I really hope that, for those who gained GCSE qualifications last year, employers will accept Welsh qualifications as being of the same standard as those in England. However, there was an upgrade in more than 1,000 cases, and that may make employers and higher education institutions question them. For example, the Welsh baccalaureate is not accepted by some universities, and that is sad. That reputational damage is now being perpetuated by the outcomes of what the programme for international student assessment judged to be tragically lower standards. As we seek to attract investment to turn the economy around, the quality of public services is essential.
Welsh Affairs
David T C Davies Excerpts(12 years, 8 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Paul Murphy
Indeed. That is the problem. We have this asymmetrical system of devolution in the United Kingdom—a different sort of Assembly in Belfast, a completely different Parliament in Edinburgh, a now enhanced Assembly in Wales and, of course, London—and as soon as we start tinkering with that sensitive constitutional balance, the Union itself is at stake.
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
Would the right hon. Gentleman’s interesting argument not have more force were Welsh and Scottish MPs not interfering in the health and education policies that English Members overwhelmingly want to enact in England?
Paul Murphy
I do not agree. In a few seconds, I will address, in particular, the issue of the Health and Social Care Bill as it goes through the legislative process. I do not think that there has been a positive approach to dealing with these issues from the Government and Conservative Back Benchers. I am not saying that there is a conspiracy; I just do not think that there is an understanding of how the constitution works. We are the United Kingdom. I will come later to the question of what will happen in Scotland and whether the United Kingdom will break up. Of course, some people genuinely have a separatist agenda, and that is the democratic right of those parties. I merely say to those of us who are unionists—with a small u—that what has occurred in this place over the past two years seriously weakens the Union.
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy), who does sterling work in my neighbouring constituency. We work together on many issues, and he and I share a passionate commitment to the Union of the United Kingdom, but there we must part company for the moment, because his analysis of how to keep the Union safe differs markedly from mine.
The right hon. Gentleman raised the issue of the health service, and that is very interesting, because, as he said, thousands of people in Wales are dependent on the health sector in England and thousands of people in England receive health services in Wales. So the argument that has been put forward is that Welsh MPs should continue to try to influence what goes on in the health service in England. However, that is a rather fallacious argument, because Members of Parliament representing English constituents treated in Wales have absolutely no say over how their constituents are affected. The logical conclusion of the right hon. Gentleman’s argument is that we should have Welsh Assembly Members representing areas such as Gloucestershire, Herefordshire and Chester in order to enable constituents in those border areas to have some say in how their health services are delivered. Of course, that will never happen. It is a nonsensical idea, just as it is nonsensical that Welsh Members of Parliament should be using their votes to try to influence policy in England in order to prevent the English from doing what they want with their health service.
We would have more moral grounds for getting involved in the English health service if the Welsh health service were a beacon that others wanted to follow, but it is not. I get a lot of complaints from people living in Chepstow and Monmouth who want to be treated in England—in hospitals in Bristol, for example—but are sent elsewhere in Wales because it is the policy of the Welsh Assembly Government, wherever possible, to treat people in Wales, not in England, even if that means constituents having to travel for hours in Wales when they could simply cross the River Severn to get treatment in Bristol or somewhere similar. It is a truly ludicrous situation.
Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)
The hon. Gentleman is missing the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy). He said that Welsh Members have an interest in the England-only Bill that is before this House because our constituents—and we are here to serve our constituents—need specialist treatments across the border in England. Many of those people from Wales work in the health service, as well. We are not talking about a theory, but practice—that is, serving the needs of our constituents when measures in this House affect them.
David T. C. Davies
I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point. It is also true, however, that many constituents in Wales who want to be treated in England are unable to be so treated because it is the policy of the Welsh Assembly Government not to treat people in England if that can be avoided. When the reforms to the NHS in England go through, the Welsh Assembly Government, if they really feel that the services are not good enough, will be entirely free to set up their own services in Wales and take their custom elsewhere, because they are, in any case, paying English health boards, or the equivalent, to carry out those services. They do not have to do that, because they can take their business elsewhere if they wish.
David T. C. Davies
I accept that that would be absurd, and I do not think for one moment that it will happen, because I am certain that with or without these reforms—I very much hope that they go through—the services that are offered in England will continue to be of the highest quality. However, the Welsh Assembly Government could choose to do that if they felt that the necessary services were not being provided. It is a purely hypothetical situation, because the services in England will be as good as, if not better than, they already are.
Waiting lists in Wales are far longer than they are in England. While 90% of people in England get treatment within 18 weeks, the figure is about 68% in Wales. People in Wales are twice as likely as those in England to succumb to a hospital-acquired infection. One of the rare cancer charities has said that people who live in England are five times more likely to get drugs for rare forms of cancer than those who live in Wales. Our health service in Wales is no longer the envy of the world; it is certainly not the envy of other nations of the United Kingdom. We have no moral right to tell the English what they can do with their better-run health service when ours is running so lamentably.
Jonathan Edwards
I have some sympathy with the hon. Gentleman’s argument as regards political sovereignty, but the big issue about the health reforms in England is their effect on the Barnett consequentials, which have a direct impact on funding in Wales. For as long as the Welsh Government are funded by that very discredited formula, it is important for Welsh MPs to vote against Bills that reduce funding for the health service in Wales.
David T. C. Davies
I respect the hon. Gentleman’s view, but it is not one that is shared by his political counterparts in Scotland, who take the principled position that they will not get involved in any issues that are completely devolved. Since he has mentioned funding, it is worth pointing out that in England the Conservative-led coalition Government are putting more money into the health service every year at a time when the Welsh Assembly Government are cutting health funding.
I was referring to the NHS in the context of the Union, as did the right hon. Member for Torfaen. We are both Unionists. My simple point is that it will not be possible to construct a stable Union if there are left-wing Governments in Scotland and Wales, which are generally left-wing places, with left-wing Members of Parliament who try to prevent the English, who are generally slightly more conservative, from carrying out the policies that they wish to carry out. The hon. Gentlemen on the Opposition Benches are trying to have their cake and eat it.
David T. C. Davies
And the hon. Ladies, forgive me. Opposition Members want Labour to be in power in Scotland and Wales, either on its own or in coalition, but they also want to continue to send large numbers of MPs here to prevent the English from doing what they want to do in their own country. That is not a recipe for a stable United Kingdom; it is nothing less than gerrymandering. It is high time that it was brought to an end.
If the hon. Gentlemen and hon. Ladies on the Opposition Benches have concerns, they should probably have thought about that before they opened the Pandora’s box of devolution in the first place. It was supposed to be a journey; it has become a magical mystery tour. It always ends in more powers for one of the devolved bodies, with the others immediately demanding more for themselves as well.
David T. C. Davies
There were different ways in which the problem could have been addressed. I think we all agree that constituencies ought to be the same size. For those who think that there has been gerrymandering, I can only say that had something been done about the situation during the 13 years of Labour Government, we would not be where we are now. Perhaps we would have had 650 constituencies of equal size instead of 600. That might have led to some slightly less glum faces in this Chamber.
I came here to talk about the report, “Inward Investment in Wales”, which is a relevant document for this debate. As Chair of the Welsh Affairs Committee, may I say what a pleasure it has been to work with Members from all parts of the House? Committee members have acted in the highest traditions of Select Committee work in leaving their political affiliations at the door, as I have tried to do myself. [Laughter.] Within the Committee Room, that is. We are not in the Committee now, so I am not necessarily in that mode.
I want to make it absolutely clear that the report is not meant to be a criticism of any Government or any political party. It simply aims to draw attention to certain problems. I will put the report down, having commended it, and talk about what we can interpret from it. Obviously, other people may interpret it in different ways. The main issue we faced was that inward investment in Wales over the past 20 years has fallen off a cliff. During the ’80s and early ’90s, Wales was getting 15% of all investment into the UK. The latest figures that I have seen suggest that it is now about 3%. I hear that it might be even lower, but I have seen no official figures for that yet. Clearly, there is a major problem that needs to be addressed.
I cannot go through the whole report, but something that will have leapt out at people is the recommendation for a dedicated trade promotion agency to go out and sell Wales to the world. That must not, of course, be the Welsh Development Agency, because although that brand is recognised around the world, I do not think that there would be much support for setting it up again as it was. We heard all sorts of evidence, some of it anecdotal but coming from officials, to suggest that this simply is not happening. We heard that International Business Wales is not cutting the mustard when it goes abroad, that people have been trying to sell Wales abroad who do not even speak the language of the country that they are working in, and that UK Trade & Investment has had little contact with Wales in comparison with other regions and nations in the United Kingdom, in particular Scotland.
Clearly there is a major problem. I am not laying the blame at any particular door. However, it needs to be addressed as quickly as possible and I hope that the Welsh Assembly Government will take note of the strong recommendation that there needs to be one dedicated body within the Welsh Assembly whose job it is to go out and sell Wales to the world.
Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)
I agree with my hon. Friend’s commendation of the excellent Select Committee report. Does he agree with the recommendation in it, and the evidence that we heard from many bodies including Admiral car insurance, that such a body should have private sector experience among its members? One of the strengths of the old WDA was how it brought private sector experience to bear on the job of bringing inward investment to Wales.
David T. C. Davies
I absolutely concur. There needs to be a mixture of skills in that body. There certainly needs to be a lot of private sector experience, but given the evidence that we heard, it is also important that the people involved can talk to different arms of government in different parts of the world.
Another issue that came out of the evidence that we heard was a general concern about skills. A lot of employers said to us in evidence and outside the Committee that people coming out of schools and universities simply were not equipped for the world of work. The recent programme for international student assessment report suggested that skills among Welsh school leavers in certain areas were well below the OECD average and the lowest in the UK. That ought to worry people.
I have expressed personal concern before about some of the university courses being offered. I do not know if it is still happening, but at one time Swansea was offering a four-year degree in surf studies. As somebody who has spent 20 years surfing, I do not think someone needs a degree in it. I did not get any degree in anything, but that is another story. I certainly do not think I missed out by not spending four years studying something like that. There are a lot of Mickey Mouse courses about, and people come out of them expecting to be able to walk into a £30,000 or £40,000-a-year job, having spent years of their life and quite of a lot of their money on such a course, and are surprised when it does not happen.
When the Committee went to GE Aviation, I talked to some of the directors, a lot of whom had come up from the shop floor. They were quite happy to take on hard-working, bright people who did not necessarily have great academic qualifications, show them all about the job and allow them to rise to the top.
It is interesting to think about the image of heavy engineering and manufacturing in Wales, and perhaps in the rest of the UK. Having worked at British Steel in the late 1980s, even I went into some factories with the Committee expecting loud and perhaps slightly dirty places. That is no longer the case, as those of us who went on the factory visits know. Some of them have to be so clean, to keep dust out of the atmosphere, that they are like hospitals. It was very interesting to talk to Tata and hear that it had taken it upon itself to bring school leavers on to the premises, and to hear how excited those school leavers had been. Some of them had gone on to work at Tata. Why are not all companies doing that?
Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)
My hon. Friend made a slightly negative characterisation of higher education, but will he acknowledge that we also heard some good stories about universities engaging with the business community and building spin-off companies in their locality? There is some good news in the PISA results on higher education rather than on schools.
David T. C. Davies
I absolutely accept that. There is a lot of detail in the Select Committee report, and I am just skipping through it in my speech. The hon. Gentleman will probably recall that when we were in Brussels we were told that some Welsh universities were not doing quite as much to get European Union research grant funding as those in England. The picture is mixed, as usual.
We should be very clear that if we are to sell Wales and persuade businesses that it is a good place to come to, we need to show co-operation. I was not going to mention this today, but I feel that I have to because of other things that have happened: the Committee was disappointed that the Welsh Economic Development Minister felt unable to come and give evidence. I can accept that slight once, but there seems to be a pattern of the Welsh Government not wanting to do anything with the UK Government.
For example, a tourism seminar was held recently, I believe at No. 10, to encourage the devolved regions of the UK to do more to get tourism going during the Olympics. Nobody from Wales came. I have heard that when a broadband grant scheme was set up and a special grant was made available for pilot broadband schemes across England and Wales, the Welsh Assembly did not really bother to fill in the forms, so we did not end up with one of the pilot areas.
The Welsh Affairs Committee was due to visit Cardiff next week to take evidence, along with a Welsh Assembly Committee, which had asked us to go there and told us when would be convenient. Of course, we were more than happy to do so. We enjoy going down to Cardiff to visit the Welsh Assembly and work with our colleagues in the devolved regions. We were not expecting Ministers, but we expected officials from Edwina Hart’s Department to give evidence about ports. Today, I have been told—I have e-mailed members of the Committee, so they will know this—that the officials will not turn up because Members of Parliament will be present. I find that extraordinary. The Welsh Assembly Government want to make speeches in the City, telling people to come to Wales and an Assembly Minister is calling for the green bank to be set up in Wales, yet they are not willing to send officials down a few flights of steps to come and see us at the Welsh Assembly. We are not asking them to visit us—we will go to them, at their convenience—yet they still do not want to talk to us. What sort of message are we sending the world through that complete lack of co-operation?
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)
My hon. Friend has just made a serious point about a lack of co-operation that means that officials cannot give a Committee of the Assembly and a Select Committee of the House information that would help both Committees understand the issues better and make recommendations in the interests of Wales. Will he write to me so that I can take up the matter with the First Minister, because I am sure that the Welsh Government will be disappointed to hear that? My understanding from discussions with the First Minister is that he is very keen on co-operation. Opposition Members are nodding, and I think it would be fitting for me to take up the matter urgently with the First Minister to see whether I can do anything to broker reciprocal arrangements.
David T. C. Davies
I thank my right hon. Friend for that. Of course, I shall be delighted to write to her. Welsh Affairs Committee members were looking forward to hearing from officials about ports, but we still intend to go to Cardiff, with officials from the Department for Transport. We may not be able to see the officials that we had hoped to meet, but we are perfectly happy for Assembly Members to talk to British Government officials about the policy, because we believe in co-operation. I apologise to Committee members who will be let down by the lack of the second part of the meeting. Who knows—we might be able to find something else to do instead.
What a marked contrast there is between that lack of co-operation and the actions of the British Government. Last night, we had a superb reception, which was perfect in all respects bar one, in that somebody may have been left off the guest list who should have been there.
Chris Ruane
Will the hon. Gentleman explain why Welsh Members of Parliament of all other parties were not invited to the reception—and, indeed, to receptions that the Secretary of State has held previously?
David T. C. Davies
I was not responsible for the guest list. I look around the Chamber and see a few people whom I would dearly like to have been there. However, Members of all parties were there—I saw the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain). I am sorry that he is not here at the moment; I do not know how he came by his invitation, but when he comes back, perhaps we will ask him. Let me tell those who were unfortunate enough not to be there that it was a wonderful evening. It was tremendous to talk to people from across Wales. There are so many worthy people in Wales that perhaps it would not have been possible to get them all in along with Members of Parliament of all parties.
Mrs Moon
Some of us were still carrying out our duties as Members of Parliament representing Welsh constituencies. Last night, instead of being in No. 10, having what I am sure was an excellent glass of wine, I was meeting Ford, talking about inward investment in Wales and the fantastic developments in engineering thanks to engineers in my Bridgend plant. They are responsible for brand-new developments in engine manufacture that are leading the way. Wales leads the way everywhere. Our biggest problem, if we have one, is that we do not talk enough about our excellent firms. In my Bridgend constituency, I have AMSS—Aircraft Maintenance Support Services—which is a fantastic worldwide company, but it is not known.
David T. C. Davies
I commend the hon. Lady for that, because she was doing absolutely the right thing. If Ford would like to relocate any of its factories on the Severn bridge industrial estate, I would quite happily stand up No. 10 to welcome it.
The hon. Lady is not entirely right about one thing: one reason why I was so keen to go along and enjoy the glass of white wine that she mentioned is that it came from the Ancre Hill vineyard in my constituency, which was set up as a family business in 2007 and which has won many awards. It now exports wine to Australia. I was proud to go along and support that business.
The only thing that saddened me about the whole evening was that when I watched “Wales Today” on iPlayer that night, I saw Betsan Powys saying that the Welsh Assembly Government had put out a statement saying that they wanted more than warm words and warm wine. May I say to the Welsh Assembly Government spokesman that that wine was not warm; it was superb. The Prime Minister wanted me to make clear today how much he and all those who drank the wine enjoyed it. The wine was chilled; I wish Members of the Welsh Assembly were.
Oral Answers to Questions
David T C Davies Excerpts(12 years, 8 months ago)
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Mr Speaker
Order. We could do with a bit of quiet, both out of respect for St David’s day and in order to hear the Chairman of the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs.
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
I wonder whether the Minister would consider marking St David’s day by allowing patients to opt out of the NHS in Wales and instead enjoy the lower waiting lists, lower infection rates and better funding that are the hallmark of the NHS in Conservative-run England.
Mrs Gillan
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for reminding us, on the eve of St David’s day, of the differences that are arising because of Labour Government policies in Wales. I am sure that his question will be heard by many people across Wales. I hope that the Welsh Labour Government will emulate our reforms and produce a first-class health service in Wales for all our citizens.
Oral Answers to Questions
David T C Davies Excerpts(12 years, 11 months ago)
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David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
Does the Minister agree that although it would be highly desirable to reduce fuel costs, it is impossible to do so while we are running a deficit of £160 billion a year as a result of the past actions of Opposition Members?