St David’s Day

David Jones Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd March 2011 Westminster Hall

[Mr Mark Williams]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. I will come on to some of the concerns that have been raised. I just cite the Welsh Tourism Alliance—I am sure it has as much of an interest in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency as it does in many other constituencies in Wales—which supports this move and sees huge opportunities for tourism in particular.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

Following on from the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb), is the hon. Gentleman arguing that St David’s day should be an additional public holiday or that it should replace an existing public holiday?

[Mr Mark Williams]

The Minister will have the chance to reply to my speech in a minute. However, I would point out that this country compares very favourably with others in the world when it comes to public holidays. We have eight public holidays, which is on a par with Australia and the Netherlands. I appreciate the sensitivities about this issue, and there is added sensitivity this year, of course, because of the welcome news of the royal engagement, which means that there will be a public holiday on the Friday, with another the following Monday. However, my cause in this debate is to argue the case for the National Assembly to make a decision about St David’s day on the basis of a full consultation—the precedent was set in Scotland—on the issues and the concerns of business people. The decision should reside with the National Assembly.

There is also considerable public support. BBC Wales commissioned a survey for St David’s day in 2006, which found that 87% of respondents supported the idea of a public holiday for St David’s day, which is perhaps not a surprise. I acknowledge that concern has been expressed by some parts of the business community, but there is generally a good deal of support for this proposal.

As I said, there was a unanimous vote in the early days of the Assembly in 2000 for St David’s day to be a public holiday in Wales, reflecting support for the proposal. Unfortunately, that proposal was not taken forward, and it was explicitly rejected in 2000 by the then Labour Government, who ruled out introducing it unless it was explicitly supported by business. That was disappointing, but, as a result of this debate, I hope that the Government will be willing to discuss the matter with Welsh Ministers in a reasonable manner—something the Minister always does in these debates—and in the spirit of the respect agenda that they rightly hold as their overriding principle in their dealings with the devolved Administrations. I hope that the outcome of the debate will be that the door is open for the Assembly—perhaps the new Assembly after the elections in May—to engage in dialogue with the Westminster Government on this matter and, as the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) said, advance it for next year.

There are some good precedents and the Scottish Government have made St David’s day a public holiday. [Hon. Members: “St. Andrew’s day.”] I am sorry; they have made St Andrew’s Day a public holiday, passing legislation after detailed consultation. However, banks are not required to close and employees are not entitled to the day off, but rather companies can choose whether or not to observe the public holiday, which is either on the day itself or the following Monday if it falls on a weekend. There have recently been calls in the Scottish Parliament for more public bodies and organisations to recognise the holiday, and it seems to have been a popular move but, critically, the debate is happening in Scotland. When the original proposal was made by the MSP Dennis Canavan, his consultation indicated 85% support from the public.

The Scottish Government took a very detailed look at the economic costs and benefits, the level of support from the public and the relationship between holidays and employment and productivity. I am loth as a devolutionist to give advice to the Welsh Assembly Government, but I hope that they would, if given the power to decide on the matter, examine the Scottish model closely, building on the considerable work that has already been done to consider the advantages and disadvantages of a public holiday.

St Patrick’s day became a public holiday in Ireland in 1903. It was granted by an Act of Parliament introduced by the Irish MP James O’Mara. St Patrick’s day remains perhaps the best example of a country using a public holiday to its advantage. It has built Ireland’s profile throughout the world, encouraged many more visitors, and provided a significant boost to the Irish economy. The St Patrick’s festival alone was estimated to have contributed €50.5 million to the Irish economy in 2010, €43.7 million of which came from overseas visitors. I do not necessarily claim that a St David’s day holiday would lead to similar encouraging revenues as St Patrick’s Day, but there are relatively few opportunities for a small country to publicise itself. A national St David’s Day and the boost from a public holiday would really help to put Wales on the map, particularly in the tourism sector to which my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) alluded in an intervention. It would also be an opportunity for a more prominent celebration for the Welsh diaspora which, although not as vocal as the global Irish community, is well established across the world. Anything that makes people look at their roots and ancestry, and perhaps even plan a visit to their homeland with their wallets, would be encouraging and welcome.

I understand the concerns of some in the business community. I do not mean the one-man bands, but what one of my constituents called the two or three-man and woman bands—the businesses that dominate much of rural Wales. It is vital to take into account the views of the business community, and I would expect the Welsh Assembly Government to consult the business community and work out the best way to advance the proposal. Even with established bank holidays, there is no automatic right to time off, and businesses can, if they wish, include bank holidays within the statutory holiday allowance. The Scottish Government have set up St Andrew’s day as a voluntary public holiday, with many businesses choosing to observe it as a holiday. I should like us to consider the Scottish model, but it is a matter for the National Assembly.

I want to stress the positive benefits that a St David’s day holiday would bring to Wales and the Welsh economy. The Wales Tourism Alliance supports the idea and has highlighted the benefits: a day when we can show off our culture, heritage and language, among other facets of the country, would be an important shop window for Wales and an encouragement to tourism operatives. As well as the obvious benefits to be gained for tourism from a St David’s day public holiday, it would be an opportunity to showcase Welsh products. To take the food sector as an example, when I became an MP I was able to initiate a Welsh cheese week at Westminster. It might sound like a small thing, but we have excellent cheese producers in rural Wales. We ensured that two cheeses from Ceredigion, Gorwydd Caerphilly and Celtic Promise, were served in this place. The initiative attracted some publicity for the excellence of the products. The following year, the cheeses returned and were joined by Golden Valley ale from the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams). I do not know how much of a direct impact that had, but the promotion of excellent Welsh produce is crucial, and a St David’s day public holiday is another opportunity to promote Wales at its best.

For all the concern about the impact of public holidays on the economy—and I respect those concerns—we still have, with eight public holidays, among the fewest of any country in the world. We are level with Australia and the Netherlands and have half the number in Japan and India. In the past, some have suggested that there is a link between a high number of public holidays and a high unemployment rate. The Scottish Parliament information centre did research and looked into those claims during the consultation on St Andrew’s day, and found no obvious correlation between unemployment and the number of public holidays that a country has within the EU.

I hope that the Minister can provide a positive response and that he will argue that the decision should rest with the National Assembly, which would be right. I hope at the very least he will adopt an open-door policy for discussion of the matter with colleagues in the National Assembly, so that we can finally move forward with the decision on whether St David’s Day should be a public holiday in Wales. I will certainly support the campaign.

I shall finish with Dewi Sant’s last words to his followers in a sermon given on the Sunday before he died. Rhygyfarch translates them as

“Be joyful, and keep your faith and your creed.”

As the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd, who is familiar with the quotation, as many people are, said, the passage continues:

“Do the little things that you have seen me do and heard about. I will walk the path that our fathers have trod before us.”

“Do the little things” or “Gwnewch y pethau bychain” has become a well-known phrase in Welsh, and I hope that the Minister can give us an indication that he plans to do what I consider is a little thing: offering the Welsh Assembly the opportunity to designate St David’s Day as a public holiday. It would be a little thing but would have huge significance back home and bring huge opportunities for the future of Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Betts. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) on securing the debate, and on very nearly securing it on St David’s day itself, missing by only 24 hours.

My hon. Friend is of course entirely right: St David’s day is hugely important to the people of Wales. He was also right to stress the importance of children in the event, because St David’s day would be nothing without them. All of us who were brought up in Wales will know what a magical day it is for schoolchildren and I am sure we all participated in school eisteddfodau. I remember learning, as a small boy, “Y Cudyll Coch” by I. D. Hooson, and reciting it—to no great success: nevertheless, recite it I did. Right across Wales St David’s day is recognised, and as my hon. Friend said it is not only the focus of school eisteddfods but the occasion for celebratory dinners. Indeed, it is already a day on which there is much celebration, when the Welsh people celebrate their unique culture, language and way of life.

Recognising as I do the importance of St David’s day, it is somewhat sad for me to have to strike the cautionary tone that I think my hon. Friend expected when he made his impassioned speech. My caution is of course that a public holiday on St David’s day, attractive as it would no doubt be, nevertheless would not be without any cost at all. In fact, there would be a considerable economic cost. In the current straitened economic climate, responsible Governments need to bear that in mind.

[Guto Bebb]

The economic point is important, but there would also be a cost for the social impact of St David’s day in schools and so on. Not every child in Wales gets the opportunity to celebrate St David’s day at home, whereas almost every child invariably gets the opportunity to celebrate our patron saint in schools and at concerts. Parents take great pride in preparing their children. Between us, my hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) and I have nine children, and I am sure that his four children and my five all celebrated St David’s day at school yesterday. I believe that there would be a cost if that was lost to communities in Wales.

[Mr David Jones]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. As I said earlier, children and St David’s day go hand in hand. School eisteddfods are tremendously important to the culture of Wales, and the St David’s day eisteddfods are a well-established tradition that I would not wish to see disturbed.

[Mr Mark Williams]

On the back of the intervention of my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy, my four children will be taking part in our school eisteddfod, in ysgol Craig yr Wylfa, but that will be on Friday morning. It is not necessary to hold school eisteddfods on the day itself. Such school events are critical to the future of St David’s day, and they will happen regardless of whether it is a public holiday.

[Mr David Jones]

My hon. Friend makes a fair point. As I said earlier, St David’s day itself is a magical day in Wales, and the eisteddfods held on St David’s day are equally magical. I, for one, would be rather sad to see the magic of the day lost. However, as my hon. Friend said, it is a matter upon which Parliament will shortly be able to vote, as my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi) is promoting a private Member’s Bill that would create bank holidays on St David’s day and St George’s day. That Bill received its First Reading on 15 December and will have its Second Reading on 13 May. I have no doubt that my hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion will participate in that debate. The Government will make their position on that Bill known in due course.

I return to more hard-headed matters and the unfortunate subject of cost. Bank holidays have an economic impact. A bank holiday across the country would cost in the region of £3 billion in lost wages, on the basis that everyone would be paid for an extra day’s work. Pro rata, the cost in Wales would be £138 million. Of course, we cannot take Wales in isolation because, as the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) pointed out, it will have an impact across the border. That is another factor that will have to be taken into consideration. Frankly, the right hon. Gentleman was entirely right to say that having a bank holiday on St David’s day should be a matter for the House.

[Mr Hanson]

The biggest employer in my area is Airbus; it employs about 7,000 people, and I expect that half of them live in England. That would create a dilemma. It could be overcome, but it would still need to be considered—and not only by the Welsh Assembly.

[Mr David Jones]

The right hon. Gentleman is entirely right. For that reason if for no other, it is a matter that properly resides with Parliament.

The hon. Member for Ceredigion made mention of tourism. The Government have received a number of calls from the tourism industry to consider spreading the United Kingdom’s bank holidays across the year. Evidence shows that when the Easter holiday falls close to the May day bank holiday, as it does this year, it does not promote the even spread of tourism across the calendar. This year is somewhat unusual because we also have a special bank holiday for the royal wedding. The Government have given those representations careful consideration, and I am sure that the House will be interested to hear that the Department for Culture, Media and Sport is working on a new UK-wide tourism strategy, which is likely to include a proposal to consult on moving the May day bank holiday to another point in the year.

I asked the hon. Gentleman whether it was his vision to have an additional bank holiday or whether an existing bank holiday should be moved. If an existing bank holiday was to be moved, we suggest that it would be appropriate to move the early May bank holiday. That would not create a new bank holiday, but there will be consultation on whether it should be moved—for example, to St David’s day. The hon. Gentleman mentioned that there had been representations from groups within the Welsh Assembly that St David’s day should be a bank holiday. That would be an excellent opportunity for those groups and others such as the Welsh Tourism Alliance to make representations to the Department for Culture, Media and Sport.

[Roger Williams]

The Minister puts great emphasis on the economic considerations that need to be taken into account. In weighing those considerations, would it not be good also to weigh the spiritual consideration that it would be a good time for the nation to contemplate the life of our great saint? That might lead to greater individual benefits in the longer term rather than economic ones in the short term.

[Mr David Jones]

My hon. Friend makes an interesting argument, and he can put it forward during the DCMS consultation. I am sure that the Department will listen carefully to his spiritual arguments. The Government are not closing their mind to a holiday on St David’s day.

[Mr Mark Williams]

I welcome the tone of what the Minister says. Although many people will be baffled that the Welsh Assembly is not in a position to make the decision, the encouraging news that the consultation is to take place, and the expectation that the Welsh Assembly Government will participate in it, is most welcome.

[Mr David Jones]

I am glad that my hon. Friend welcomes my remarks. Perhaps we have achieved something this morning.

My hon. Friend spoke of the life of St David. It is probably fair for me to conclude by pointing out that St David was noted for his ascetic life. It is said that he was sustained by a simple diet of bread and herbs and drank nothing but water—hence his being called Dewi Ddyfrwr, or David the water drinker. He is also reputed to have been in the habit of standing neck-deep in cold water, reciting from the scriptures. It is most unlikely that St David ever took a day’s holiday.

Oral Answers to Questions

David Jones Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Jenny Willott (Cardiff Central) (LD)]

3. What discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Transport on the closure of the Driving Standards Agency office in Cardiff.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I have regular discussions with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport and his ministerial team on a range of issues, including the restructuring of the Driving Standards Agency. The possibility of job losses is a serious matter for all concerned, and the staff in Cardiff should not have had to find out about this matter as a result of the information being leaked to the media.

[Jenny Willott]

I have been contacted by a number of constituents who are losing their jobs as a result of the Driving Standards Agency office closure, and they have told me that they are being offered no support to help them to find new work. Will the Minister speak to colleagues in the Department for Transport, the Department for Work and Pensions and the Welsh Assembly Government to ensure that my constituents are given as much help and support as possible so that they can secure new work as soon as possible?

[Mr Jones]

It is a matter on which my right hon. Friend and I have already been in touch with the Department for Transport, and I understand that that Department and the Driving Standards Agency are looking into possible redeployment options for those affected. Certainly the individuals concerned will need as much support as possible and I will work with ministerial colleagues to ensure that as much as can be done is done.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

What assessment have the Government made of the effect of job losses on the already unsatisfactory service that the DSA provides through the medium of Welsh?

[Mr Jones]

I understand that the proposed closure will have no impact on services through the medium of Welsh.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

4. What recent estimate she has made of the number of public sector job losses in Wales attributable to the implementation of the outcomes of the comprehensive spending review.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

The Office for Budget Responsibility published figures last year on the expected public sector job losses. These are based on UK-wide macro-economic data, so no regional figures are available. We remain committed to working with ministerial colleagues and the Welsh Assembly Government to minimise the impact of the deficit reduction programme on the workers and families of Wales.

[Paul Flynn]

Will the Minister use the welcome additional two months to reflect on the proposed loss of jobs in the Newport passport office and to study the Centre for Cities report, which identifies Swansea and Newport as the two UK cities most vulnerable in the present economic situation and those that will have the greatest difficulty in recovering? Will he also study the impact of the proposed closures and come up with a proposal that does not unfairly punish south Wales?

[Mr Jones]

I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman welcomes the two-month extension of the consultation period. I can assure him that my right hon. Friend and I are working closely with the Department to ensure that the case for Newport is put forward. The Centre for Cities report makes worrying reading and it will be necessary for the Government to work closely with the Welsh Assembly Government to ensure that the people in this area have sufficient skills.

[David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)]

Will the Minister join me in welcoming the decision to extend the consultation period and to undertake a full economic impact assessment? Does this not show that the Government are listening, despite the problems caused by the £1 trillion deficit and debt left by Opposition Members?

[Mr Jones]

Yes indeed, and I am glad that my hon. Friend welcomes the extension of the consultation period. I can assure him that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I are working closely with the Department to see what can be done to mitigate the impact on the area.

[Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)]

The Minister will be aware that nearly 50% of the workers in his constituency and mine work in the public sector. Thousands will be thrown on the dole by his party, so what consultations has he had with the Prime Minister and the Chancellor about providing additional ring-fenced funding for constituencies with large numbers of public sector workers?

[Mr Jones]

The hon. Gentleman should know that we liaise constantly with our ministerial colleagues, but he should recognise, as his right hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State does, that the private sector is too small in Wales and the public sector too predominant. I was interested to see, by the way, that the hon. Gentleman has been appointed Parliamentary Private Secretary to the shadow Chancellor—no doubt deficit denial was part of the job description.

[Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)]

Inward investment and private sector job creation will help to overcome the public sector job losses that we have inherited as a result of the state of the economy under the last Administration. Given that millions of pounds worth of deals were struck between the UK and China last month, does the Minister recognise and share my disappointment that whereas the Scottish First Minister has been to China four times in the last two years, the Welsh First Minister has not been there once?

[Mr Jones]

Yes, that is disappointing. China presents enormous opportunities for inward investment to Wales and to the UK as a whole, and these are matters on which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is liaising closely with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills.

[Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

As we have already heard and as the Secretary of State will know, hundreds of public sector jobs in Wales have already been lost on her watch. Is she aware that there will be further job losses at the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency when it closes its offices in Bangor and Cardiff? Will she tell us what she is doing to keep those precious jobs in Wales?

[Mr Jones]

The hon. Gentleman is clearly privy to information to which I am not privy, but in view of the leaked information that appears to fall into his hands so regularly, perhaps that is not surprising.

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

5. What recent assessment she has made of the role of the aviation sector in Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

My right hon. Friend and I have had regular discussions with ministerial colleagues on support for the aerospace industry in Wales. We have much in the sector of which to be proud. In recent weeks, both GE Aviation and Airbus have announced the creation of jobs owing to increased demand.

[Neil Carmichael]

Like Wales, my constituency has strong supply and service links with Airbus and other aviation sectors in the south-west. Does the Minister agree that it is essential for us to have free trade in the world of aviation, and to fight protectionism wherever we see it so that we can protect jobs and provide high-value-added industries for our communities?

[Mr Jones]

My hon. Friend is entirely right. Airbus, which is an important employer in his constituency as well as in north Wales, has a great deal of which to be proud. Its recent announcement that it will offer permanent contracts to 770 agency workers in Broughton, who will build aircraft wings following the largest commercial order ever, is a great vote of confidence in the sector.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Does the Minister agree that the development of the supply chain for Airbus through companies such as Magellan Aerospace and Tritech in my constituency is a vital part of the development of the aerospace sector in the United Kingdom? What are the Government doing to support that?

[Mr Jones]

The Government are doing a great deal. It is clear that the high-tech, high-value-added industries will be the powerhouse for the economy in the future, which is why my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State visited the Deeside area recently to see what is being done by companies such as Toyota. As my hon. Friend says, there are some extremely good high-value, high-tech companies in his constituency.

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

7. What recent discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills on the effects of her Department's policies on apprentices on the number of apprentices in Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

10. What discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills on the likely effect on Wales of the establishment of a groceries code adjudicator.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

My right hon. Friend and I have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues on a range of issues affecting Wales, including the food industry. We believe that it is important to ensure a fair deal throughout the food supply chain. The new body will help future investment and innovation by increasing confidence among suppliers and consumers.

[Mr Williams]

I know that the Minister met the Farmers Union of Wales last week. Did he detect the impatience that I detected in my discussions with the union about progress being slow on the development of a supermarket ombudsman? Such an ombudsman will gain support across the House. What progress has he made in his discussions and will he push the agenda further in his discussions with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs?

[Mr Jones]

My hon. Friend will be pleased to know, I am sure, that I will be visiting his constituency tomorrow, when I will discuss this very issue with the Farmers Union of Wales. He is absolutely right: the proposal has been well received in the industry. This was mooted as long ago as 2001 by the former Prime Minister, Tony Blair, but nothing came of it.

The Prime Minister was asked—

Oral Answers to Questions

David Jones Excerpts

Wednesday 8th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Siân C. James (Swansea East) (Lab)]

1. What recent discussions she has had with the Welsh Assembly Government on the implementation in Wales of the Sunbeds (Regulation) Act 2010.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

The Secretary of State and I have a wide range of discussions with Welsh Assembly Government Ministers on a range of issues relevant to Wales. The Sunbeds (Regulation) Act 2010 will come into force in England and Wales on 8 April 2011. It will prevent people under the age of 18 from using sunbeds on commercial premises by making it an offence for sunbed operators to provide access.

[Mrs James]

I thank the Under-Secretary for that answer. As he is aware, my former colleague, Julie Morgan, the previous Member for Cardiff North, and I fought long and hard for the Act. It is vital that we stop under-age use of sunbeds. The Minister for Health and Social Services in Wales is determined to introduce the principle as a matter of urgency. The introduction of the Act on an England and Wales basis is vital. I urge the Under-Secretary to press UK Ministers for action and to keep the issue at the forefront of the public health debate.

[Mr Jones]

I commend the efforts of the hon. Lady and Ms Julie Morgan in drawing this important public health issue to our attention. As the hon. Lady is aware, the Welsh Assembly Government intend to introduce regulations in 2011 further to regulate sunbed businesses in Wales only, on which they are consulting. This significant measure is aimed at protecting young people, but it also concerns a public health issue for older people. Sunbeds pose a cancer risk and, to be frank, frequently do not produce a very good look.

[John Howell (Henley) (Con)]

2. What recent discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues on the level of employment in Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)]

4. What recent discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for the Home Department on policing in Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

Effective policing in Wales is of the utmost importance to the coalition Government. Both the Secretary of State and I have had regular discussions with Cabinet and ministerial colleagues on matters affecting policing and law and order in Wales.

[Simon Hart]

The Minister will be aware of the crucial strategic importance of the Milford Haven waterway as an energy hub serving every constituency in the land. Will he assure the House that Dyfed-Powys police will have the long-term resources necessary to protect that vital asset?

[Mr Jones]

The Government recognise the strategic importance of Milford Haven and indeed of all other Welsh ports, and we will work closely with ministerial colleagues in the Home Office to ensure that appropriate support is provided in future. Future funding for counter-terrorism policing has been protected as far as possible in the spending review because of the nature of the threat.

[Steve Baker]

I am sure that Welsh police will welcome the Government’s refreshing approach. What else will the Minister do to liberate Welsh police from bureaucracy and get them back on the beat?

[Mr Jones]

The Government are indeed keen to throw off the legacy of bureaucracy. As a result of the bureaucratic element of Labour policing policy, police officers were left impotent behind desks. Last year under Labour, just 14% of all police officers’ time was spent on patrol, compared with 22% on paperwork.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

Does the Minister recall the Prime Minister saying during the election campaign that he thought police community support officers did a good job and that we should have more of them? Does he agree, and if so, what representations is he making to ensure that Wales does not lose out on PCSOs?

[Mr Jones]

The Government do indeed recognise the importance of PCSOs, but the employment of them must be a matter for individual police forces. The right hon. Gentleman will be aware that the policing settlement is due shortly.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

The chief constable of Dyfed-Powys police recently wrote to me outlining the fact that the consequence of the comprehensive spending review for the force would be at least a 20% cut in real terms—a £10 million loss to the budget. With 83% of costs relating to staffing, will that inevitably lead to cuts in front-line policing and a reduction in the quality of service provided in the communities I represent?

[Mr Jones]

Again, I have to say that the issue of staffing must be one for individual police forces. The Government are trying to be sensitive about the cuts that are necessary as a consequence of the appalling economic legacy that has been left to the country by the Labour party.

[Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)]

Further to the previous question, what representations has the Minister made on the future of the rural policing grant as it affects Dyfed-Powys? The grant is currently £2.64 million and there are real concerns about the implications of any change for the delivery of front-line protection.

[Mr Jones]

I am sure that that will be a matter of particular concern to my hon. Friend. The Home Office is considering the matter, which will be the subject of an announcement shortly.

[Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

The Minister and the Secretary of State say that individual police forces will be responsible for the cuts that they have to make. However, they will know that North Wales police—overall crime in the area reduced by 40% under the Labour Government—now faces cuts of perhaps 230 officers from 1,600, and 160 police community support officers. If crime increases from the current record lows in north Wales, will the Minister and Secretary of State blame the chief constable?

[Mr Jones]

Before I answer that question, may I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on being awarded the accolade of “one to watch” in the ITV Wales political awards? I can assure him that I am indeed watching him.

The hon. Gentleman’s point has been well rehearsed, but I would rather rely on the chief constable of North Wales, who has given an assurance that the force will continue to protect the public and provide a service in which the public can be confident.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)]

6. What recent discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on welfare reform in Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales and I have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues about a range of issues relevant to Wales. The Government have set out our plans to introduce legislation radically to reform the welfare system by creating a new universal credit, which will simplify the system, make work pay and combat worklessness and poverty in Wales and throughout Britain.

[Mr Turner]

Does my hon. Friend accept that it would be far better to have a small number of benefits that make sense rather than a huge number of benefits that are complex and confusing, and that no one could possibly understand?

[Mr Jones]

Yes—that is why my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions proposes to replace six benefits with one universal credit. That will not only simplify the procedure, but encourage people to get back into work.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

With simplification, there is always the danger of people falling outside categories, and therefore of gross injustices. Will the Minister have a word with the Work and Pensions Secretary about boosting the face-to-face advice that is available from the Department for Work and Pensions, especially in rural areas? That would be a great step forward.

[Mr Jones]

The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point. As he knows, the matter is the subject of a White Paper and no doubt he will feed into the process. Overall, it is considered that the new benefit will be simpler and easier for people to understand.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

I am sure that the Minister will be pleased to know that the number of claimants for jobseeker’s allowance in Brecon and Radnorshire has dropped by 25%. Does he agree that that is to do with the resilience of small manufacturing companies such as Beacon Foods—which I visited on Monday—coming through the recession in the way they have?

[Mr Jones]

Indeed, and one must never forget that small and medium enterprises are the backbone of the Welsh economy. The measures that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has put in place should do much to ensure that they have a successful future.

[Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)]

Is the Minister aware of the impact on constituents of mine in Bridgend of the lowering of mortgage interest relief for those on benefits from the previous rate of 6.8% to 3.67%? A constituent of mine who has a mortgage at a rate of 5.85% has a shortfall of £236 a month, which is getting him increasingly into debt and he faces losing his property. What help can be offered to people such as my constituent?

[Mr Jones]

I am sorry to hear of the predicament of the hon. Lady’s constituent. If she writes to me, I will pursue the matter further.

[Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con)]

8. What recent discussions she has had with the First Minister on the proposed referendum on law-making powers for the National Assembly for Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Adam Holloway (Gravesham) (Con)]

9. What recent discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues on support for the aerospace industry in Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

My right hon. Friend and I have had regular discussions with ministerial colleagues on support for the aerospace industry in Wales. I am pleased that we will take forward our order for A400M transport aircraft and the future strategic tanker programme, safeguarding hundreds of highly skilled jobs in north Wales.

[Mr Adam Holloway (Gravesham) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend regret the pre-election scaremongering, especially in Wales, that we would scrap the A400M, project?

[Mr Jones]

I do. The A400M is of crucial importance to the aircraft industry in north Wales. Although the wings are not made there, the technology that produces the wings is based there, and it is of extreme importance to the aerospace industry in Broughton.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

I was talking to the managing director of GE Aviation in Nantgarw on Monday and he said that he was willing to work with the Government to encourage other inward investors—for example, Boeing—to add to the aerospace cluster in Wales. Will the Minister take up that offer and work with stakeholders in Wales to increase inward investment and the number of jobs?

[Mr Jones]

I am very pleased to hear what the hon. Gentleman has to say.

[Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)]

10. What recent discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for the Home Department on the likely effects on Wales of spending reductions in respect of police forces.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

Effective policing in Wales is of the utmost importance to the coalition Government. Both the Secretary of State and I have had regular discussions with Cabinet and ministerial colleagues on matters affecting policing and law and order in Wales.

[Chris Ruane]

North Wales police force is one of the best in the country. Under Labour, it had record investment, a record number of police officers and a record drop in crime. Under the Con-Dem Government, all that will be reversed when North Wales police will be forced to sack 250 officers and 484 civilian staff. Will the Minister and his team do what they should be doing, stick up for Wales and stop these dastardly cuts?

[Mr Jones]

I remind the hon. Gentleman that the cuts are necessary entirely as a result of the Labour party’s incompetent management of the economy. I reiterate that the chief constable of North Wales has sufficient confidence in his force to say that it will continue to protect the public and provide a service in which the public can be confident.

[Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

11. Whether she has discussed with the Secretary of State for Transport the electrification of the London to south Wales railway line; and if she will make a statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con)]

12. What recent discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for the Home Department on policing in Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

I refer my hon. Friend to my earlier response to my hon. Friends the Members for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) and for Wycombe (Steve Baker).

[Karen Lumley]

Having lived in Wrexham for most of my adult life, I notice that North Wales police force has one of the lowest crime rates and the highest percentage of uniformed officers on the streets compared with other forces in England and Wales. Does my hon. Friend think, as I do, that we could learn something from the North Wales police force?

[Mr Jones]

Yes, indeed, we can. Principally, what we have in north Wales is a chief constable who has displayed a tremendous can-do attitude and is prepared to live within his financial means.

The Prime Minister was asked—

Constitutional Law

David Jones Excerpts

Tuesday 30th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

I beg to move,

That the draft National Assembly for Wales (Representation of the People) (Amendment) Order 2010, which was laid before this House on 25 October, be approved.

This draft order amends the National Assembly for Wales (Representation of the People) Order 2007, which makes provision for the conduct of elections to the National Assembly for Wales—[Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. May I gently interrupt the Minister? This matter is of very great interest to Members representing Welsh constituencies, so I appeal to the House to come to order. If Members do not wish to listen to the debate, they are of course welcome to continue their conversations elsewhere, but I am keen to attend upon every word of the Minister.

[Mr Jones]

Thank you, Mr Speaker. The order makes provision for the conduct of elections to the National Assembly for Wales and was made under powers in the Government of Wales Act 1998 and the Government of Wales of Act 2006. The draft order makes a number of modest policy and technical changes to the 2007 order, which comprehensively reflected changes made to electoral law since the previous order in 2003, in particular by the Electoral Administration Act 2006. The 2007 order runs to 273 pages, and I am sure that you will be relieved, Mr Speaker, to hear that I do not intend to speak in any great detail about its contents. I will, however, outline the main changes that would be made to it by the amending order before us.

Article 3 amends the definitions of “Assembly constituency”, “Assembly electoral region” and “elector” in the 2007 order to ensure that they are consistent with the Government of Wales Act 2006. The relevant provisions in that Act did not commence until after the 2007 order was made. The definition of “elector” also reflects changes to the Representation of the People Act 1983 made by the Electoral Administration Act, and this includes references to anonymous voters.

Article 4 amends the 2007 order in relation to registration appeals. Where decisions on appeals about entries in the register in respect of postal votes are determined before the election, these decisions will take effect and the register altered. The article also clarifies the relevant provisions under which an appeal can be made and a notice of alteration issued.

Article 5 makes an important change to the 2007 order. Currently, the election agent for a candidate in an Assembly regional election must have an office in that region. A number of political parties raised concerns about this requirement during the 2007 elections, because a party might wish to appoint only one election agent to represent all its regional candidates in an Assembly election. The previous provision, which required the election agent to have an office in the region, prevented it from doing so. Following a recommendation by the Electoral Commission, made after the 2007 Assembly election, this requirement is to be relaxed so that an agent’s office must be located within Wales, but not in every region of Wales.

Articles 6 and 7 make minor changes to the 2007 order to reflect changes made by the Legal Services Act 2007. Article 6 expands the definition of bodies capable of exercising regulatory functions over the legal profession. If a legal professional is found guilty of a corrupt practice during an election campaign, an election court must inform these bodies. Article 7 amends the relevant part of the 2007 order which requires the Director of Public Prosecutions to attend election courts, expanding the definition of whom the DPP may send as a representative. Articles 8 and 9 amend references in schedules 1 and 3 to the 2007 order respectively which we subsequently found to be incorrect.

Article 10 makes the most substantive change to the 2007 order by changing the design of the constituency and regional ballot papers. In October 2009, the Electoral Commission published its guidance on designing voter materials—it was called “Making Your Mark”—having consulted political parties, electoral administrators and disability awareness groups. This guidance highlights best practice when designing voter materials such as ballot papers to ensure that they are as accessible and intelligible as possible for voters. It is clearly in the interests of democracy that every eligible elector is able to participate in elections, and that the voting process is as clear and simple as it can be. In designing the new ballot papers, we have worked closely with the Electoral Commission to ensure that we adhere to both the spirit and the letter of the guidance.

Apart from the design, the key change is the removal of the names of those on the party list from the regional ballot paper, as is also the case in Scotland. Hon. Members will know that the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill, which is currently before the other place, provides for the referendum on the alternative vote system for electing Members to this House to be combined with the elections to the National Assembly on 5 May next year. The provisions within this draft order are not affected by the combination provisions.

The Government and the Welsh Assembly Government are committed to working together to ensure that the polls next May are a success. Jenny Watson, the chair of the Electoral Commission and the chief counting officer for the alternative vote referendum, who will have the lead role in the combined polls, said earlier this month that the commission believed that

“enough progress has been made...to allow the National Assembly elections and referendum on 5 May to run smoothly”.

In preparing the order, the Wales Office worked closely with electoral administrators, including the regional returning officer for Wales, the Electoral Commission, the Welsh Assembly Government and the four major political parties in Wales. The provisions of the order are modest but necessary for the efficient running of next year’s Assembly elections, and I commend it to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr David Jones]

I am grateful to the hon. Members for Arfon (Hywel Williams) and for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) for what appeared to be a broad welcome for the order, although the welcome from the hon. Member for Pontypridd was somewhat well camouflaged. He asked whether a guarantee could be given that expenditure by local authorities would pass to electoral registration officers. The Welsh Assembly Government are responsible for that. In response to his request for an assurance that the process will run without a hitch, I remind him again that the professionals, namely the members of the Electoral Commission, have said that enough progress has been made to allow the elections and the referendum on 5 May to run smoothly. However, the Government will of course continue to work with the Welsh Assembly Government in the run-up to the elections to ensure that that happens.

The hon. Gentleman asked what consultation we had had with the First Minister and the Assembly. We have engaged in extensive consultation with both the Assembly and the First Minister, and the Presiding Officer of the Assembly has written to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State stating:

“Constitutionally, I have no objection to the proposed UK AV referendum and the NAW general election coinciding. I am strongly in favour of voter convenience, and rationalisation of expenditure on polling arrangements.”

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

David Jones Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

1. Whether she has had discussions with the Secretary of State for Justice on the likely effects on Wales of her Department’s proposed programme of court closures.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I are fully engaged with our colleagues at the Ministry of Justice on these proposals. We both met the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly), in September and further meetings have been arranged.

[Mr Llwyd]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply. Will he tell me when exactly he met his colleagues and what he discussed? Which courts did he say should not close?

[Mr Jones]

I and the Secretary of State met the Under-Secretary in September. We have another meeting arranged for 10 November. We discussed all the courts in Wales that I am sure the hon. Gentleman is concerned about.

[Mr Speaker]

I call David Davies.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Llwyd]

May I make the point that since the hon. Gentleman and his colleague have been in post, we have lost the investment in St Athan, we have lost the investment in the south Wales railway line, we have lost jobs in Newport and we have lost the north Wales prison? What on earth are they doing for Wales?

[Mr Jones]

It is in fact inaccurate to say that we have lost either St Athan or the north Wales prison. I would have thought, frankly, that the hon. Gentleman, as a lawyer, would be more concerned about the administration of justice. That is the primary concern of our Department and of the Ministry of Justice.

[David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)]

May I thank the Minister for all he is doing to try to right the terrible economic wrongs foisted on us by Labour Members? In doing so, will he also take account of taxpayers’ money that has been spent on Abergavenny court before making any final decision on it?

[Mr Jones]

Yes, indeed. Both the interests of justice and the interests of taxpayers’ money will be fully considered.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

2. What discussions she has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on Government policy on the funding for the National Assembly for Wales determined in the comprehensive spending review.

--- Later in debate ---

[Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con)]

3. What recent discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues on an exemption from Severn bridge toll charges for serving armed forces personnel.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

I have regular meetings with ministerial colleagues regarding transport issues in Wales. I recently met the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), to discuss the Severn bridge tolls. In particular we discussed the possibility of offering various discounts once the concession ends.

[Karen Lumley]

Does my hon. Friend agree that we ought to honour our armed forces by giving them concessionary fares, as happens in France and the United States?

[Mr Jones]

We certainly ought to honour our armed forces. The issue with the Severn bridge is that it is currently managed by a concessionary company, Severn River Crossing plc, and that the concession is likely to continue until 2017. Until then, discounts are entirely a matter for the company, but when the concession ends the Government will be responsible for tolling and might well consider further concessions.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Does the Minister agree that the tolls act as a tax on the economic gateway to inward investment in Wales? Will he consider reducing the tolls for the maintenance charges when the Severn bridge comes into public ownership in 2016 to encourage inward investment and prosperity at a time when the Welsh have been hit so badly by the comprehensive spending review?

[Mr Jones]

I understand what the hon. Gentleman says. Clearly there would be more of an economic barrier if the crossing were not there, but he is right that when the concession comes to an end in 2016-17 it will be possible to review the tolls and see whether, for example, they should be charged only in one direction or both.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

4. What plans she has for discussions with the Welsh Assembly Government on the likely effects on child poverty in Wales of the outcomes of the comprehensive spending review.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

5. What recent representations she has received on the implications for Wales of the Government’s proposals on constitutional reform.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

My right hon. Friend and I have received a number of representations, and we have also discussed with the Welsh Assembly Government and other interested parties the implications for Wales of the Government’s programme of constitutional reform. Fairness throughout the United Kingdom is the underpinning principle of those reforms, and the Government have moved fast to introduce the constitutional reforms needed to restore confidence in Britain’s political system.

[Nia Griffith]

We all understand the idea of a maximum time limit of two months for responding to Select Committee reports, but we do not have to go for the maximum; we can respond earlier. Will the Minister explain why his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State did not respond to the Welsh Affairs Committee’s report on the constitutional reforms in time for those comments to be considered while the relevant Bill was being considered on the Floor of this House?

[Mr Jones]

As the hon. Lady will know, the Committee’s report was only recently received. The Wales Office will do it justice by giving it full consideration and providing a mature and considered response.

[Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)]

6. What recent discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues on the economy of seaside towns in Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

My right hon. Friend has had regular discussions with ministerial colleagues on all issues affecting the Welsh economy, including the vital role that the prosperity of seaside towns plays. The Government are committed to working with the Welsh Assembly Government to promote Wales as both a tourism and an investment destination, so that seaside towns prosper as we deliver sustainable economic growth.

[Chris Ruane]

What assessment has the Minister made of the effect on seaside towns, especially Welsh seaside towns such as his and mine, of what Boris Johnson calls the “Kosovo-style” clear-out of people on housing benefits in inner cities?

[Mr Jones]

I can fully understand the hon. Gentleman’s concern that after 13 years of Labour government the west ward of Rhyl became the poorest and most deprived area in the whole of Wales. In so far as benefits are concerned, the most important aspect of the matter is to ensure that housing is available in the west ward of Rhyl and in other parts of his constituency.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that tourism is a key part of the north Wales economy, and as such is it not inexplicable that the Assembly Government’s economic renewal plan does not mention tourism at all?

[Mr Jones]

Yes. Tourism provides £4 billion per annum to the Welsh economy, and it is essential that we do as much as we can to encourage it. However, the north Wales coast regeneration area fund will also utilise private funding, and that is a Welsh Assembly Government initiative of which we approve.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

7. What recent discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills on steps to increase employment opportunities in Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

As I explained to the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues yesterday, there is no need for a meeting of the Welsh Grand Committee on this issue. Hon. Members have had adequate opportunity to discuss the implications for Wales of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill, including five days of debate in Committee and two days on Report and Third Reading, all on the Floor of the House.

[Kevin Brennan]

I see that Ministers are not answering again. When the Secretary of State refused, in an unprecedented way, to have a meeting of the Welsh Grand Committee, was her principal reason for doing so to snub Welsh MPs or simply to sabotage the Prime Minister’s respect agenda—because she succeeded in both?

[Mr Jones]

The hon. Gentleman well knows that far from treating him and his colleagues with disrespect, there was in fact a meeting specially organised for Welsh Members of Parliament attended by the Bill Minister, the Secretary of State and me. There has been ample opportunity for discussion of this Bill on the Floor of the House, as the hon. Gentleman well knows.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

9. What recent discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Transport on funding for cross-border rail infrastructure projects; and if she will make a statement.

--- Later in debate ---

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

10. What discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport on the future funding and management of S4C.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

My right hon. Friend and I have had regular meetings with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics Media and Sport and with the Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, my hon. Friend the Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey), who is responsible for culture, communications and creative industries, to discuss these matters. The Government remain committed to the future of Welsh language programming and of S4C, and we regard S4C’s settlement as fair and proportionate to the cuts that the Department for Culture, Media and Sport is being asked to make.

[Susan Elan Jones]

Does the Minister agree with the leader of the Welsh Conservatives that there should be an independent review of S4C?

[Mr Jones]

The Welsh Conservatives’ proposal is, of course, that S4C should have a good, viable and vibrant future. It is for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to consider whether there should be an inquiry.

[Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con)]

11. What recent discussions she has had with the First Minister on proposals to decentralise powers to local communities.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

My right hon. Friend has regular meetings with the First Minister on all issues affecting Wales. I will meet the Assembly Government’s Minister for Social Justice and Local Government tomorrow.

[Jonathan Evans]

As the people of Wales may shortly vote for additional powers to be devolved to Wales, and as the Government take forward their localism agenda, does my hon. Friend agree that it is essential that as many of those powers as possible are devolved down from the Assembly to local communities and councils?

[Mr Jones]

Yes, my hon. Friend is right to the extent that I find huge enthusiasm among stakeholders in Wales for the Government’s big society agenda, which seeks to devolve influence down to the lowest possible level. For that purpose, I will be having a meeting with the Minister for Social Justice and Local Government to discuss how the Welsh Assembly Government can participate in the process.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

How will the removal of the right of local communities to appeal to the Boundary Commission through public inquiries enhance the power of local communities?

[Mr Jones]

These are matters on which the hon. Gentleman has had plenty of opportunity for debate on the Floor of the House, and he has made his full contribution. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. There is far too much noise in the Chamber. It is a veritable commotion. I want to hear Mr Philip Hollobone.

Welsh Grand Committee (Scrutiny)

David Jones Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd November 2010 Westminster Hall

[Alun Michael]

Methinks the hon. Gentleman doth protest too much. We will see the outcome, and if that outcome is jobs in south Wales we will welcome—

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

rose—

[Alun Michael]

I shall give way in a moment. The Conservatives this morning are over-excited. I think that they are embarrassed—[Interruption.] They want to talk now, but they must listen. If the hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan has any success in his discussions we will welcome anything that improves the situation in south Wales. However, I suspect that the Prime Minister might not be listening to the hon. Gentleman.

[Mr David Jones]

A moment ago, the right hon. Gentleman appeared to accept the point made by the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales had ignored the report of the Welsh Affairs Committee. Having served with the right hon. Gentleman on that Committee, I know that he is a fair man. Will he accept that there is adequate time for a response to that report by my right hon. Friend, and will he also accept from me that such a response will be made?

[Alun Michael]

I shall try to respond to that question fairly: my answer is no. The Select Committee has come out with a report that underlines the blindingly obvious, which is that this is all being rushed. I suggest that the hon. Gentleman look at the decisions. The summary states:

“The decision to hold a referendum on a change to the UK voting system on the same day as elections to the National Assembly of Wales might result in a number of problems for electoral administrators.”

It then goes to the heart of the matter:

“More generally, we are disappointed at the pace at which the whole package of constitutional reforms is being legislated and implemented. The provisions of the Bill will have profound consequences for the UK Parliament and for Wales in particular. We are equally disappointed that the Government has decided to timetable the Bill through the House of Commons without adequate opportunity for fuller scrutiny. We regret very much that the Secretary of State for Wales did not make allowance for a meeting of the Welsh Grand Committee so that Welsh interests in the Bill could be considered in depth.”

That consideration should have taken place before the debates on the Floor of the House, and I underline “before”.

[Mr Jones]

That was not the question, though. I asked the right hon. Gentleman to confirm that he accepts that a response will be made by the Wales Office to the Select Committee’s report.

[Alun Michael]

An untimely, delayed response might be made, but that does not meet the point of timeliness and it is part of the general picture of unseemly rush by a Government who are clearly embarrassed by their own proposals.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alun Michael]

I do not think that I can. The Government are clearly embarrassed by all of this, which is why the Leader of the House has refused to be here, even though it should have been him responding to the debate today. I suspect that the Secretary of State, having taken over the subject, if you like, preferred to send her junior Minister as the fall guy. I have a great deal of sympathy for the hon. Gentleman because of the onerous burden that has been placed on his shoulders but, as I understand it, it is only the Secretary of State who decides whether there will be a Welsh Grand Committee in response, in respect for the Members in Wales. I see that my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy)who, like me, has held that office, is of the same view. The Secretary of State should really have been here to answer for her own decisions.

[Mr David Jones]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his concern, but I assure him that the burden rests lightly. As a matter of information, the Secretary of State is at a Cabinet meeting, which is why she is not here.

[Alun Michael]

Would the hon. Gentleman like to tell us whether at that Cabinet meeting the Secretary of State is fighting for the interests of the people of Wales? I think that we know the answer.

--- Later in debate ---

[Paul Murphy]

Not on my part. However, my hon. Friend makes a powerful point. Whatever the political persuasion of the Secretary of State, there was no refusal to hold a Grand Committee on an important issue. When I held office, 21 meetings of the Welsh Grand Committee were called to deal with a large number of issues, including major constitutional matters. I cannot understand for one second what entered the head of the Secretary of State when she decided not to hold a meeting of the Committee.

[Mr David Jones]

rose—

[Paul Murphy]

We may have an answer.

[Mr Jones]

Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that no Welsh Grand Committee was held to discuss either the Government of Wales Act 1998, or the Government of Wales Act 2006, prior to the legislation being passed?

[Paul Murphy]

But there were discussions on the legislative programme—on the Queen’s Speech and its impact on the people of Wales. That would be part of the process. This decision is a grave constitutional error, which, in my view, could mean the end of the Welsh Grand Committee. If the Secretary of State continues to refuse to hold meetings requested by the majority of Welsh Members of Parliament, the institution will become moribund.

My other point concerns the reasons why the Secretary of State should hold a Welsh Grand Committee to consider the impact of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill on the people of Wales. First, there has been no adequate scrutiny on the Floor of the House. The Select Committee recommended that a Welsh Grand Committee be held, but when I wrote to the Secretary of State to ask her to hold such a Committee, she replied that there would be ample opportunity for discussion, particularly on clause 11. That has not happened. The Welsh Grand Committee would have provided an opportunity for all Welsh Members of Parliament to debate important issues such as the referendum, the devolution settlement, the representation of Members of Parliament in this place and the relationship with the Welsh Assembly Government and the Welsh Assembly. Those are huge and important issues that will have an impact on the people of Wales, but the Secretary of State is stubbornly refusing to call a meeting of the Committee to discuss them.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Caton. I commend the right hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael) for securing this debate on the Welsh Grand Committee and its scrutiny of Government—although it has ranged considerably beyond those matters. I want to reiterate that the Government regard the scrutiny of the Executive by Parliament as a matter of paramount importance, and, furthermore, that the Welsh Grand Committee has a significant role to play in that respect. Since its foundation in 1960 it has proved itself to be an invaluable body for scrutinising issues relevant to Wales. I commend the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) who did much to enhance its role.

The principal focus of the Committee is the scrutiny of the Welsh elements of Government policy—elements for which there might not otherwise be sufficient time for debate on the Floor of the House—most notably of course the Queen’s Speech and the Budget. However, the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill has been different. Despite the myth of Welsh political martyrdom that Opposition Members have concocted today, the timetabling of the Bill has given adequate time for debate, and the Floor of the House of Commons is surely the right forum.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Jones]

I will not give way, because I have listened to speech after speech from Opposition Members and we have little time. [Interruption.] Perhaps I can address that.

This is a Bill on which many substantive votes have been called.

[Ian Lucas]

Will the Minister give way?

[Chris Ruane]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Jones]

No, I will not.

[Martin Caton (in the Chair)]

Order. The Minister has said he does not intend to give way.

[Mr Jones]

I have listened for the past hour and a half to histrionic rubbish from Members on the Opposition Benches and it is about time that that was redressed.

It is accepted that there is considerable political interest in the Bill throughout Wales. The focus of interest was clause 11, which deals with the number of seats, and which was debated last night—the right hon. Member for Torfaen made an important contribution—and clause 13, which decouples Assembly constituencies and parliamentary constituencies in Wales. That was not reached last night, although I waited all evening to debate it.

From the start, the Government were careful to make adequate time available for the Bill. My role, as the Wales Office Minister responsible for taking through the Wales-specific elements of the Bill, working closely with the Bill Minister—the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), who has responsibility for political and constitutional reform—is to ensure that Welsh issues are centre stage during the Bill’s passage through the House.

The Government allowed adequate time for debate on the Floor of the House. The original programme motion approved by the House on Second Reading provided for five days of debate in Committee. Subsequently an additional six hours of debate were granted to make sure that on days when there might be statements, there would be adequate time for debate.

The five days that were allowed in Committee compare more than favourably with the three days in Committee that were allowed for the Government of Wales Act 2006, which was forced through by the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain). I reiterate the point that I made to the right hon. Member for Torfaen—that neither for the Government of Wales Act 1998 nor for the 2006 Act was a Welsh Grand Committee convened, because of the simple fact that the right forum for debate was the Floor of the House of Commons. There have been five days in Committee and two days on Report—36 hours of debate. [Interruption.] No, I will not give way. That has given more than adequate time. Have Opposition Members taken advantage of that time? No, with the honourable exception of the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), from whom we have heard at length. They have done nothing but agonise and posture over process, and the complaints about the non-convening of the Welsh Grand Committee are symptomatic of that.

The matter is nothing to do with concern about constitutional arrangements. It has everything to do with Opposition Members’ concerns about their own partisan position as Members of Parliament, because they know, as the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) has indicated, that there will be a reduction of 25% in the number of Welsh constituencies, because Wales is grossly over-represented in the House of Commons. The debate has everything to do with the vested interests of the Labour party, which seeks to preserve political advantage over the concerns of the nation as a whole. I see nothing wrong with a Bill that will ensure that a vote in Arfon, Ceredigion or Clwyd West is worth the same as a vote in any other part of the country. That is fairness, and the people of Wales are nothing if not a fair people. If the hon. Member for Pontypridd does not understand that, he has made a very poor start to his parliamentary career.

[Paul Flynn]

On a point of order, Mr Caton. The Conservative spokesman intervened on other speeches and has refused interventions on his own speech.

[Martin Caton (in the Chair)]

The gift of allowing interventions is entirely in the control of the hon. Member who is speaking.

[Mr Jones]

To reiterate, this morning there has been nothing but posturing over process, and histrionics from the Labour party, which did not want to debate the issues on the Floor of the House. Had its members wanted to debate them, and not to push to the limit the bounds of what might be, but clearly is not, regarded as filibustering, we should have had adequate time for debate. We have heard a ludicrous set of objections from the Opposition.

There will be, in due course, further Welsh Grand Committees, and they will be called for matters that are appropriate for such Committees. Issues that are appropriate for the Floor of the House will be debated there. Issues that are appropriate for Grand Committees will be debated there. The next time Opposition Members have the opportunity to debate in Grand Committee, I hope they will contain themselves and listen with more respect to speakers on the Government side. Their synthetic outrage will not resonate in Wales at all. The Bill that is going through the House will ensure fairness for people in every part of the United Kingdom. Had the Opposition sought to do so they could have debated the issues on the Floor of the House, rather than avoiding doing so.

Expenditure Reductions: Policing

David Jones Excerpts

Thursday 16th September 2010 Ministerial Corrections

[Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)]

9. What discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for the Home Department on the effects on front-line policing in Wales of planned expenditure reductions.

[Mr Jones]

The question of funding for the police is a matter that will have to await the comprehensive spending review, but I am heartened by the comments of the National Audit Office and the Wales Audit Office about how it should be possible to effect reductions of £1 billion without any effect at all on front-line policing.

[Official Report, 8 September 2010, Vol. 515, c. 310.]

Letter of correction form David Jones:

An error has been identified in the response provided to the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) during Welsh oral questions on 8 September 2010.

The Minister intended to refer to a report by the Wales Audit Office, the Audit Commission and Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Policing. The Minister did not intend to refer to the National Audit Office in his response.

Oral Answers to Questions

David Jones Excerpts

Wednesday 8th September 2010 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con)]

1. What discussions she has had with the Deputy Prime Minister on the implementation in Wales of a reduction in the number of parliamentary constituencies; and if she will make a statement.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I have had numerous discussions with the Deputy Prime Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), who is responsible for political and constitutional reform, on matters affecting Wales in the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill.

[Jonathan Evans]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the current electoral architecture in Wales, which grants the Labour party 65% of the representation on barely 36% of the vote, can be described neither as democratic nor as valuing votes from Wales equally?

[Mr Jones]

My hon. Friend is entirely right. The Government’s proposals for electoral reform are founded on the principles of equality and fairness, and it is clearly fair that votes cast at parliamentary elections throughout the United Kingdom should be of broadly equal value, including in Wales.

[Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)]

There are currently approximately 170,000 people missing from the electoral register in Wales. On Monday, the hon. Gentleman’s colleague the Deputy Prime Minister announced that the Government are considering ways of putting those people back on the register. Will that happen before or after the Boundary Commission’s freeze date in December?

[Mr Jones]

I have to say to the hon. Gentleman that the Labour party did not address that matter when it was in government. The vital consideration must be to ensure that all votes are fair and that all voters are fairly registered, and that will be the principle on which this Government proceed.

[Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab)]

How can the Minister and the Secretary of State possibly justify cutting proportionately three times as many Welsh MPs as English MPs, creating monster constituencies in rural Wales and geographically impossible ones in Welsh valleys? Instead of ramming through those changes, why will not the Government maintain the existing system of public inquiries that has protected local interests for generations?

[Mr Jones]

I am surprised that the right hon. Gentleman takes that view. I would have thought that he would be as anxious as Government Members to ensure that votes cast in general elections are fair and of equal value. As it stands, votes in certain parts of the country are worth significantly more than those in other parts. So far as constituency boundaries are concerned, I remind him that they will be determined by the impartial and neutral Boundary Commission, with which I have already had discussions.

[Mr Hain]

But the Minister and the Secretary of State have presided over rigging the situation in advance. Is the Secretary of State proud that by slashing the number of Welsh MPs by fully a quarter from 40 to 30, she is the first Secretary of State for Wales in history to reduce Wales’s voice in Parliament? Why is she also the first Secretary of State to refuse a request for a meeting of the Welsh Grand Committee? Does she not understand the anger about that among Welsh MPs of all parties, including hers? We demand a meeting of the Welsh Grand Committee so that our constituents can see what is being done to them.

[Mr Jones]

Again, the right hon. Gentleman is completely wrong. Our position, to which I would have thought he would be signed up, is that votes across the country should be of equal validity. The current position is that they are not. On holding a Grand Committee, I imagine and hope that he and the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr David), will be present at the meeting that we have convened this afternoon to put their concerns forward.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

2. What recent discussions she has had with Ministerial colleagues on the review of the economic impact of S4C.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)]

4. What recent discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for the Home Department on policing in Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I have regular discussions with Cabinet and ministerial colleagues, and we regularly meet the Association of Chief Police Officers Cymru, Police Authorities of Wales, the Welsh Local Government Association and other interested parties to discuss matters affecting policing and law and order in Wales.

[Jessica Morden]

With Welsh police forces facing budget cuts this year of more than £6 million, which is a real threat to front-line policing in constituencies such as mine, will the Minister tell the House how much it will cost to elect and fund the proposed directly elected police commissioners in Wales?

[Mr Jones]

The hon. Lady will know that we have had to impose budget cuts to make a start on sorting out the appalling economic legacy that we inherited from the Labour party. Elected police commissioners will not cost a penny more than the police authorities that they will replace, and they will add the considerable value of ensuring that there is a democratic link between the electorate and those responsible for overseeing the police.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

The Police Minister indicated that police authorities could make savings by reducing overtime, but police authorities such as Dyfed-Powys have already reduced overtime to a minimum as a result of previous efficiency savings. Will the Under-Secretary of State for Wales convey that to the Police Minister, and ensure that not all police authorities are dealt with on the same basis, so that peculiar requirements are taken into consideration?

[Mr Jones]

The Government clearly recognise that any cuts present challenges to our police, as they do to other front-line services, but they also present an opportunity to refocus policing priorities and operational requirements. The Welsh police authorities have already shown an excellent lead by combining procurement, to the extent that they have saved more than £3.5 million in the last financial year, and I hope that that pattern will continue.

[Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Following on from the Minister’s earlier response, the Local Government Association estimates that the cost of these police commissioners will be £50 million, or the equivalent of 700 police officers. Does not he agree that it would be perverse to introduce these superannuated sheriffs at the same time as making cuts in neighbourhood policing?

[Mr Jones]

As I have already indicated, the cost of the police commissioners will not be a penny more than the authorities that they replace. The hon. Gentleman may like to know that I have already held a meeting with the Welsh Local Government Association. I have also seen the letter to which he alludes, and I have passed it on to colleagues in the Home Office. I reiterate that it will not cost a penny more than the police authorities that the commissioners will replace.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

5. What recent discussions she has had with Ministerial colleagues on the future of winter fuel payments to people in Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

Winter fuel payments provide assurance to older people that they can keep warm during the colder winter months by providing significant help with fuel bills. As announced in the Budget, winter fuel payments will continue to be paid for 2010-11, which will benefit some 680,000 people in approximately 494,000 households in Wales.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

I wish to put to the Minister a question that was raised in a meeting of the over-50s group in my constituency last week. The Prime Minister gave assurances about safeguarding benefits for the elderly and the winter fuel payment during the election, but we now hear rumours that the qualifying age may be increasing from 60 to 66, or possibly more, and that the basic winter fuel payment could be cut by £50 for new recipients or £100 for the oldest. What merit should we give to those statements that were made during the election?

[Mr Jones]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, the coalition agreement makes it clear that the Government intend to protect the winter fuel payment. It is clear that the age at which both men and women get winter fuel payments will move in step with the equalisation in entitlement to the state pension, but I reiterate that the coalition agreement makes it clear that we intend to protect that payment.

[Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)]

6. What recent discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues, the Welsh Assembly Government and CBI Wales on support for Welsh businesses.

--- Later in debate ---

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

7. What recent discussions she has had with the First Minister on the effect on levels of employment in Wales of proposed reductions in public expenditure.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

My right hon. Friend has regular discussions with the First Minister on a range of topics, including the reductions in public spending necessary to tackle the deficit.

[Susan Elan Jones]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his interesting and brief response. Will he actually answer the question more fully by commenting on the fact that the latest employment outlook survey says that employers in Wales expect to decrease staffing levels in the next few months by 8%, and that the Federation of Small Businesses in Wales has said that

“it’s not surprising that small firms might be planning staff reductions”,

and that is due to major public service cuts? Will he for once speak up for Wales and accept responsibility for the situation that his Government are creating for communities in Wales?

[Mr Jones]

I am glad to see that the hon. Lady recognises the appalling financial legacy of her Government. Under the last Government, unemployment in Wales increased by 60%, from more than 82,000 to 130,000 in the last 10 years. We can restore the Welsh economy and return life to it only by allowing the private sector to grow. On that basis, we have introduced measures, such as the national insurance holiday, that will stimulate significantly the private sector in Wales. Wales cannot rely on the public sector alone.

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

8. What discussions she has had with the First Minister and ministerial colleagues on the proposed referendum on the law-making powers of the National Assembly for Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)]

9. What discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for the Home Department on the effects on front-line policing in Wales of planned expenditure reductions. [Official Report, 16 September 2010, Vol. 515, c. 3-4MC.]

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

Both my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I have regular discussions with Cabinet and ministerial colleagues on policing matters in Wales. We recognise that reductions in budgets will be challenging to our police forces, but will also present opportunities to refocus policing priorities and make operational efficiencies.

[Chris Evans]

I thank the Minister for his response. Given how successful the Safer Caerphilly community safety partnership has been in substantially reducing crime and antisocial behaviour, will the Secretary of State give an assurance that she will fight any plans to cut funding for next year?

[Mr Jones]

The question of funding for the police is a matter that will have to await the comprehensive spending review, but I am heartened by the comments of the National Audit Office and the Wales Audit Office about how it should be possible to effect reductions of £1 billion without any effect at all on front-line policing.

[John Howell (Henley) (Con)]

10. What recent discussions she has had with Welsh Assembly Government Ministers and ministerial colleagues on Government policy to assist the rural economy in Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I attach great importance to rural communities in Wales and the economic challenges that they face. The Wales Office has set up a taskforce of officials to look at the rural economy and see what we can do to support and encourage growth in our rural areas.

[John Howell]

Having contributed to the Welsh rural economy during the recess by spending a very enjoyable holiday in Wales, may I ask the Minister to say what the Government are doing to promote economic renewal and growth in the Welsh rural economy?

[Mr Jones]

I am glad to hear that my hon. Friend is contributing to that economic renewal and I hope that he will continue to do so in years to come. The Wales Office is currently consulting groups that represent businesses and the rural economy, to gather their views on what we can do to help them grow in these challenging times. I have already held meetings with a number of interest groups, including the farming unions, and I look forward to taking that work forward over the autumn.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

There is a company in my constituency called Desk-Link. Unfortunately it is going through difficult times. Since January, many of the staff there have been paid late. Some workers have found that their tax and national insurance contributions have not been paid. Will the Minister ensure that Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and Jobcentre Plus assist my constituents in getting the support to which they are entitled?

[Mr Jones]

I am sorry to hear of the hon. Gentleman’s constituents’ difficulties. If he would care to write to me, I shall ensure that his representations are put forward to the appropriate Departments.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

11. What recent discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Justice on prison capacity in Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State met the prisons Minister in July to discuss prison capacity in Wales.

[Guto Bebb]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the current financial crisis means that a new prison in north Wales is now a distant probability? If that is the case, what discussions has he had with the Ministry of Justice about rehabilitation services in prisons in England that currently service prisoners from north Wales, and in particular for those prisoners who have Welsh as their first language?

[Mr Jones]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I have recognised for some time the need for a prison in north Wales. These are matters on which we have made representations to the prisons Minister, the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Mr Blunt), but clearly the question of whether one is affordable will have to await the comprehensive spending review.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

12. What recent discussions she has had on opportunities for the leisure industry in south-east Wales arising from the forthcoming Ryder cup.

Llanishen Reservoir

David Jones Excerpts

Tuesday 6th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans) on securing this debate, which is important both for his constituents and, because it concerns Government policy on reservoir safety, for the whole country.

As my hon. Friend will appreciate and as he identified, the case of the Llanishen reservoir is complex, and today is not the first occasion on which the matter has been ventilated on the Floor of the House—as recently as last February, it was referred to by his predecessor, Julie Morgan, in the St David’s day debate. The case of Llanishen reservoir involves consideration not only of reservoir safety, but of protection of the environment, planning law and listed buildings consent. While matters relating to the safety of reservoirs in Wales are devolved, and I know that the Welsh Assembly Government Minister for Environment, Sustainability and Housing has been monitoring events closely, the Environment Agency is responsible for enforcing matters of reservoir safety in Wales.

The Reservoirs Act 1975, as amended, sets out the safety regime for reservoirs in England, Wales and Scotland. Llanishen reservoir is a large raised reservoir under the terms of the Act, that is to say one designed to hold or capable of holding more than 25,000 cubic metres of water above the natural level of the land. As such, it should—pursuant to section 10 of the Act—be inspected by a qualified inspecting engineer at least every 10 years.

As my hon. Friend said, Llanishen reservoir was last inspected in 2008 and the inspecting engineer made a number of recommendations relevant to its safety. He recommended that a survey of all valves and pipework in the reservoir should be carried out to check their layout and condition. Although he did not specifically require a drain-down of the reservoir, he pointed out that this would be necessary in order for its operator, Western Power, to implement his recommendations. Once such recommendations have been submitted by the engineer, there is a legal obligation on the operator to implement any necessary measures as soon as practicable. In the case of Llanishen, the inspection report specified that these should be done within 12 months.

Western Power did not complete these measures on time so the Environment Agency served an enforcement notice on the company. That notice required the company to complete the outstanding safety measures within an agreed timescale. Western Power elected to draw down the reservoir to carry out a visual inspection of the pipework. It began drawing down the water on 26 February 2010 by siphoning water over the reservoir embankment and into the Nant Fawr stream. The water level within the reservoir has been lowered by approximately 4 metres. The siphoning has now stopped.

Although the Environment Agency has no legal powers to prevent the draw-down from happening, it has written to the company to emphasise that in the agency’s view the company does not necessarily need to drain down Llanishen reservoir in order to carry out the safety inspections identified by the inspecting engineer. However, should the company insist on completing the draw-down, the company needs an environmental permit or discharge consent from the agency to proceed. This document is issued under section 85 of the Water Resources Act 1991 and gives permission to discharge water that may contain silts or sediments—such as in reservoir water— sewage or trade effluents directly into surface waters, rivers, streams, canals, groundwater or the sea. In fulfilling its obligations under this Act, the Environment Agency determines environmental permit applications to regulate the water being discharged in order to protect water quality, the environment and human health.

During its consultation on the application, which was advertised in the South Wales Echo, the agency received a number of comments from the local community, including some from the Llanishen reservoir action group. These comments are being considered as part of the agency’s assessment of the application. If Western Power proves to the agency’s satisfaction that the draw-down will not cause any detrimental effect on the Nant Fawr stream, its wildlife or the local environment, the agency is obliged to issue an environmental permit. However, if granted, the permit will place appropriate conditions on the company to minimise the risk of pollution or damage to the local environment.

The SSSI status conferred upon the Llanishen reservoir embankments by the Countryside Council for Wales in September 2005, which was confirmed in May 2006, will no doubt be an important factor in the agency’s assessment. I understand that Western Power has consulted the Countryside Council on its plans for the reservoir. The listed building status of the dam attached to the reservoir by Cadw is also an important factor to be taken into account, but it is my understanding that no application for listed building consent has been submitted by the company in relation to the drain-down. In any case, consideration of any such application would be a matter for Cardiff city council as the appropriate authority. If at any time the Environment Agency comes to believe that the reservoir has become unsafe or detects any damage or pollution to the environment from the further draw-down proposed by Western Power, proportionate enforcement action will be taken against the company.

I recognise and share my hon. Friend’s concerns over the many issues he has identified in relation to the reservoir at Llanishen. I hope also that I may reassure him of the importance I attach to the debate on matters that are not just of concern to local communities, but which might indeed have wider implications and which I intend to take steps to pursue. I therefore intend to write to the Welsh Assembly Government Minister with responsibility for the environment and sustainability, Jane Davidson, who has devolved responsibilities in this matter, to convey the concerns raised in the House this evening. I intend also to write in a similar vein to Robert Symons, the chief executive of Western Power, to urge that his company engages with interested parties in this matter.

As my hon. Friend has so eloquently pointed out, the Llanishen case has highlighted the fact that, whereas a reservoir operator has a means of challenging a determination by the Environment Agency, current legislation does not provide for reconsideration by an inspecting engineer of his report once it has been submitted to the operator, even if new information or a contrary view is provided from another source. That seems to be an issue that merits further reflection. I therefore intend also write to my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon), the Under-Secretary at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs with responsibility for the natural environment and fisheries, to ask him to consider the scope for addressing this apparent anomaly in the course of the Government’s implementation of section 4 of the Flood and Water Management Act 2010, which will introduce a risk-based approach to the assessment of reservoir safety, and on which the Government will consult in due course.

[Jonathan Evans]

The reservoir action group and local residents will be very pleased to hear my hon. Friend’s statements from the Dispatch Box. Within his busy schedule, when he is in Cardiff on some convenient occasion, will he take the opportunity to visit the reservoir and meet the interested parties and locally elected representatives, as I challenged Mr Clarke to do during my earlier remarks? Bearing in mind what my hon. Friend has said, there will be people who will wish to take the opportunity to thank him for his interest.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jones]

I shall be pleased to accept that invitation.

I will place copies of all the letters to which I have referred in the Library of the House. I hope that the process that I have outlined will give my hon. Friend the assurance he needs that the safety and environmental impact of the operation of Llanishen reservoir, as well as the concerns of his constituents and the wider community in Cardiff, are being given the priority and attention the matter deserves.

Question put and agreed to.

North Wales Economy

David Jones Excerpts

Tuesday 29th June 2010 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) on securing the debate, which is, of course, dear to my heart because I am the Member of Parliament for the constituency immediately adjacent to his. There can be no doubt that the recession has hit north Wales as hard as many other parts of the country, if not harder. In fact, over recent months, there have been significant job losses right across the region—134 jobs lost at David McLean, more than 50 jobs lost at JCB, 130 jobs lost at PT Construction on Deeside and, most significantly, major job losses at Air Products in Wrexham, Anglesey Aluminium and the Indesit factory in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. The Indesit factory was, in fact, a major employer for my constituency, where more than 300 jobs were lost.

Although the hon. Gentleman paints a rosy picture of employment and industry in north Wales under the Labour Government, it is not quite so rosy. Indeed, without wanting to put too fine a point on it, over the past 10 years, the claimant count in his constituency has increased by 40%, long-term unemployment has increased by 16%, the youth claimant count has increased by 63% and long-term youth unemployment has increased by 71%. Although one does not want simply to trade statistics, as I say, the rosy picture that he painted in his opening remarks is, unfortunately, not borne out by recent developments in north Wales.

[Chris Ruane]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Jones]

Given that the hon. Gentleman has already taken 19 minutes for his opening comments, I feel that I have to make some progress. He mentioned a number of important points that will be of concern to all hon. Members who represent constituencies in north Wales and, because he raised those specific points, I would like to comment on as many of them as I can in the time remaining.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned the A400M project, which is of significant importance to north Wales. Indeed, the Airbus factory should be regarded as the jewel in the crown of industry in not only north Wales, but the whole of the United Kingdom, because it provides high-quality, high-tech jobs that must be the way for the future. The A400M is, of course, actually developed in Filton, as the hon. Gentleman will know. However, the wing technology that is being developed at Filton is shared at Broughton. The Wales Office is certainly very supportive of the A400M project, but having said that, as the hon. Gentleman knows, a strategic defence review is under way and, of course, all announcements must wait on its outcome. I gently inform him that the Labour Government did not progress the A400M project or commit themselves to it.

[Mr Hanson]

My right hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth) signed a contract for 22 planes before the election. That is part of the ongoing review.

[Mr Jones]

Yes, but as the right hon. Gentleman knows, a number of projects were signed up to—including the Sheffield Forgemasters project—very late in the day during the election period for a reason that is patently obvious to even the most charitable observer.

The hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd mentioned Glyndwr university and Technium OpTIC. I endorse his commendation for OpTIC. In fact, the first official visit that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I paid to north Wales after our respective appointments was to Technium OpTIC. I particularly commend Professor Mike Scott, the vice-chancellor of Glyndwr, for forging ahead with OpTIC and, as the hon. Gentleman has pointed out, ensuring that the university forges strong links with the private sector. Such an approach is certainly the way forward.

We also heard about Landrillo college. Again, I can do nothing but commend Landrillo, which is, in fact, headquartered in my constituency. I pay tribute to Huw Evans, the principal of Landrillo college, for forging links with the private sector.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned agriculture. I think it is fair to say that over the years, the Conservative party has shown nothing but support for the agricultural sector and it will continue to do so.

The hon. Gentleman also mentioned seaside towns—an issue of personal interest to me. Colwyn Bay is an important town that has declined over recent years. It is, in fact, currently in receipt of strategic regional assistance moneys from Europe via the Welsh Assembly Government. I echo what he said about houses in multiple occupation, which have been a scourge of seaside towns—Rhyl in his constituency and Colwyn Bay in mine alone. However, I must gently criticise the Welsh Assembly Government’s policy of attracting people into north Wales who have no connection with the area because doing so has ensured that incomers can leapfrog indigenous north Waleseans. That has caused a great deal of concern to councillors in my constituency and, I am sure, in the constituency of the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd).

The hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd mentioned the Heritage Lottery Fund. I remind him that the lottery was a Conservative innovation. He has already mentioned John Major. If I remember rightly, the lottery was John Major’s pet project. I am glad to say that the coalition Government intend to review the operation of the lottery to ensure that it reverts to its original aims of supporting good causes. We want to ensure that it is not rifled by Government as a support to taxation.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned the Rhyl city strategy and the future jobs fund, which he regards as important. We have to make a decision in this country: whether we create real jobs, with some prospects of creating real wealth, or whether we subsidise jobs that are guaranteed only for six months. Doing the latter does not create real wealth and runs the risk of returning the young people on those programmes to the dole. The focus of the Government should be on creating real wealth. That is the nub of the difference between the Labour Government and the coalition Government. The previous Government were happy to fritter away this country’s resources through borrowing to mortgage our children’s and our grandchildren’s future, without tackling the root causes of the problem that the economy faces, which is essentially the enormous deficit that this country is running. The enormous structural deficit and debt run the risk of strangling each and every one of those young people before they get a job at all.

This Government intend to focus on reducing the deficit, on restoring real jobs to the economy, and on ensuring as far as possible that those who are able to work can do so. That is why I commend the work programme that was announced today by the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), which was criticised by the hon. Gentleman. This Government are not afraid to face the real decisions that we need to take to put the country back on the right track. We may receive criticism from the hon. Gentleman, but we have received the support of the OECD, the G8, the Governor of the Bank of England and any number of chief executives he may care to mention. The future of this country is real, genuine, honest employment.

[Albert Owen]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Jones]

No, I will not take the hon. Gentleman’s intervention, but—

[Albert Owen]

Why not?

[Mr Jones]

If the hon. Gentleman would like to listen, he might actually be pleased with what I am about to say. I commend him for his advancement of the energy island concept. He understands that only real jobs will rescue Anglesey, and I commend him for it. I repeat my previous support for Wylfa nuclear power station. I hope that it gets built, and but for the fact that the Labour Government effectively had no energy policy for 10 years, Wylfa would now be well on the way to being built. We have had 13 wasted years of Labour, during which time we ate the seed corn for future generations. It is time to get Britain back to work; it is time to get Britain moving again. I believe that the coalition Government will do just that.