Operation Conifer

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Tuesday 8th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lexden]

To ask His Majesty’s Government whether they will appoint an independent legal expert to review the seven allegations of child sex abuse against Sir Edward Heath left unresolved at the end of Operation Conifer in 2017.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

The noble Lord will be aware that four reviews of this operation have found it legitimate and proportionate. This is a complex matter with significant history, which I am approaching with an open mind. To that end, I will listen carefully to any representations that noble Lords make on the issue.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, noble Lords may recall the debate that we had on this in January. Did that not confirm and strengthen the conviction long held in all parts of this House that the seven unresolved allegations against Sir Edward Heath, to which this Question refers, should be subject to independent review? Do we not owe it to the memory of this deceased statesman to ensure that his reputation is not unfairly and improperly compromised in the eyes of posterity? That could so readily happen if we do not establish the full truth now, while the matter is still relatively fresh. Evidence in police files can be scrutinised carefully and impartially by an independent legal expert attuned to the circumstances of our times.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

As the noble Lord mentioned, it is unfortunate that Operation Conifer was not able to resolve conclusively the position in respect of the allegations made against Sir Edward Heath. The Operation Conifer summary closure report emphasises—and I must emphasise this as well—that no inference of guilt should be drawn from the fact that Sir Edward would have been interviewed under caution had he been alive. I will reflect on the points that the noble Lord has made, as I will on any other points put before the House today.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, is participating remotely.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I welcome what my noble friend has said from the Dispatch Box, but is it not time, with a change of government, to put this story to rest by holding a comprehensive case review to examine all the papers? The instinct of the powers that be will be to leave well alone; however, an injustice remains. Cannot we, Labour, be the honest brokers who put this story to bed? Will Ministers give serious thought to my request for a specific inquiry?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to my noble friend for his comments. If he reflects on what I said at the beginning of my Answer, I am approaching this with an open mind, and it takes time to reflect on those issues. The points he has made today are important, and I will reflect on those as part of my consideration of the issue raised by the noble Lord, Lord Lexden.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that, before leaving the Home Office and after exhaustive consultation with very helpful officials, I had managed to draft a letter to the chief constable of Wiltshire Police that encouraged the possibility of another look at this while also scrupulously respecting the force’s operational independence. Can the Minister shed any light on whether this letter was ever sent? If not, will he agree to draft his own?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I hope that I do not ruin the noble Lord’s reputation when I say that I agree with him, in the sense that it is appropriate, potentially, for the chief constable of Wiltshire Police to examine the issues in the first instance. I am not aware of what happened in the previous Administration, because I am not party to that, but, equally, it could be a course of action for the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, to take forward to write to the new chief constable and ask her for her opinion on the issues that have driven the Question today.

[Lord Birt (CB)]

My Lords, I greatly welcome the Minister’s response and his declaration of an open mind. When I was a working television producer, I spent a very great deal of time—many days—in the company of Edward Heath and all those around him. As far as I am aware, no one who ever worked with him believes that he was a paedophile. We have a poor record in this country of speedily resolving perceived injustice, so I strongly encourage the Minister to adopt the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Lexden.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Birt, for his comments. I must again say to the House that no inference of guilt should be drawn from the fact that Sir Edward Heath would have been interviewed under caution had he been alive. It is unfortunate that Operation Conifer ended without resolution. I personally feel, although I will reflect on the issues raised today, that the first port of call should be going back to the chief constable of Wiltshire for an investigation into the concerns that have been raised. I hope that that will potentially be undertaken by the noble Lord. I will certainly follow up on the Opposition Front Bench’s suggestion as to what happened to any previous letter.

[Lord Paddick (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, does the Minister not agree that some legal process needs to be established in the case of deceased people being accused of serious criminal offences, in light of the fact that it is not possible to hold a criminal trial nor to libel the dead?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Lord will know that the College of Policing has looked at investigating allegations and calls for allegations made against individuals both living and dead and is currently potentially issuing guidelines to police forces around these matters. Again, this is a complex area. I want to reflect on the points raised today, and I am open to further scrutiny from this House in due course.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, following the publication of the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse in October 2022 and the government response a year later, the Government issued a consultation on mandatory reporting by professionals working with children when they suspect possible abuse. The result of that consultation has still not been published a year on. One of the best ways of ensuring that there are no malicious allegations against senior politicians is to see that result and for a government response. When do this Government plan to implement the recommendations of the IICSA report?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

If I may, I will look into the issues that the noble Baroness has raised and write to her with the detail very shortly in response.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, in declaring my interest as the immediate past chair of the Sir Edward Heath Charitable Foundation, I warmly welcome the Minister’s commitment to this House that he has an open mind, which I believe has tremendous support. But it is not just what is in the police files; there are a number of other matters that require scrutiny. The first is the fact that the former chief constable of Wiltshire, Mike Veale, has now been totally discredited. There is also the fact of the manner in which the police and crime commissioner was cut out of the whole investigation by the appointment of a so-called scrutiny committee, and then there is the fact that so many of the police logs at the entrance to Sir Edward Heath’s home, Arundells, were wantonly destroyed. All these matters require close investigation.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for his comments. It draws me back to the point I put to the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, on the suggestion of the Opposition Front Bench. The chief constable of Wiltshire rightly has the investigatory powers to investigate any matters that are of concern, including those raised by the noble Lord in relation to her police force, as indeed does the police and crime commissioner in response to this, who is a different police and crime commissioner to the one who was operational at the time. I would suggest that, whatever my reflections on these matters are—I will make those reflections—it would be helpful for the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, to raise those issues again with the current chief constable and the current police and crime commissioner.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, it is very good to hear that the Minister has an open mind on this matter and will listen to representations. I think he will find that there are a lot of representations from Members of this House. There is merit in asking the chief constable to look at it, bearing in mind that it was her predecessor who is the source of all this trouble.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

Again, the noble Lord will have great experience of government and I think served as an official in Sir Edward’s Government at some point. I joined the Labour Party because of Sir Edward, but that is another story altogether—

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

But what we should try to reflect upon is the fact that the chief constable has responsibility for this investigation in Wiltshire. It is not for Ministers to investigate; it is for the chief constable. That would be a useful source of direction, and I am grateful for the noble Lord’s suggestion and support.

Rural Crime: NFU Mutual Report

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Thursday 12th September 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

I begin by thanking the National Farmers’ Union Mutual for its report. Rural crime can have a devastating effect on, and consequences for, countryside communities and the agricultural sector. That is why the Government are committed to reducing crime in rural areas. Under our proposed reforms, rural communities will be safeguarded, with tougher measures to clamp down on anti-social behaviour and strengthen neighbourhood policing, as well as stronger measures to prevent farm theft and fly-tipping.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

I thank the Minister for his reply. I was pleased, back in April, to see that Sir Keir Starmer, before he became Prime Minister, announced a rural crime strategy. What we now need is implementation. Would the Minister commit, at local area level, to talk to police and crime commissioners and chief constables to set up dedicated rural crime teams, which forces such as Thames Valley have done very successfully and which are making a real impact? At a national level, will the Government commit to having a cross-departmental approach involving the National Crime Agency, Defra and the Home Office to address the scourge of rural crime?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate for his question. I hope he will be aware that there is a National Rural Crime Unit in place, which has been funded for a three-year period, looking at support and co-ordination of police and crime commissioners and rural forces. We want to look at that to see how I can work with that as a Minister. He is right that the right honourable gentleman the Prime Minister has examined the issue of a rural crime strategy. We need to work with partners such as Defra on issues such as sheep worrying, and ensure that we co-ordinate the Government’s approach. I will certainly do that and will be happy to take advice and support from the right reverend Prelate in due course to help develop and inform that strategy.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)]

My Lords, when studying the NFU report, would my noble friend also have a look at the report of the all-party group on metal theft? It has not yet been reconstituted, but in the last Parliament it produced a report that showed that metal theft costs the UK economy around £1.5 billion each year and is conducted, in the main, by organised crime groups. Many of these crimes take place in rural areas and, of course, lead from churches is a particularly popular target. Would my noble friend agree that this a report that needs to be studied, and would he meet the members of the all-party group?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to my noble friend. He may not know that I served on the Metal Theft (Prevention) Bill Committee in Opposition in 2013. We pressed that very strongly. In co-operation with the then Government, we reduced metal theft by 50% over that period. More legislation and security allowed thefts to be tracked down through scrapyards and known routes of criminal activity. It was a really effective piece of cross-party legislation: we amended it in Opposition, the Government accepted it and improvements were made. Of course I will happily meet with him. There is downward pressure and there will continue to be downward pressure, but if he and his all-party group have suggestions, we will happily look at them and consider them.

[Lord Garnier (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister will understand that it is not just crimes of acquisition and anti-social behaviour that affect rural areas. They are also affected by fraud offences. Does the Minister have any idea when Section 199 of the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Act 2023, which provides for an offence of failure to prevent fraud offences, will be implemented? It cannot be implemented under the Act until six months after the publication of Home Office guidance. We have been waiting for the Home Office guidance. Does the Minister have any idea at what stage the consideration of that guidance is within the Home Office?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble and learned gentleman. I have been tasked by both the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary to be the Minister responsible for fraud. This week, I met with officials and I will be meeting with stakeholders. We have a potential examination of a future fraud strategy based on the work of the previous Government. The points that the noble and learned Lord makes are a part of our reflection on that strategy. I will certainly go away and inform myself of what happened under the previous Government in relation to that delay, and how I can expedite this as a matter of some urgency.

[Lord Birt (CB)]

My Lords, I served with the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, on the APPG on metal theft. From the evidence we gathered, it was clear that metal theft is widespread in rural areas. Whatever the picture was when the Minister was last involved in 2013, I think when he returns to the subject he will see that it remains pernicious, widespread and extensive. We are all clear what some of the targets are: church roofs, which have a deadly impact on the villages affected; and, relatively recently, the theft of literally kilometres of copper cable from both the telecoms and rail networks. As the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, said, these crimes are committed by organised criminal gangs and, from the evidence we took, frankly there is no cause to think that the police are operating effectively to counter these organised criminal groups.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. The metal theft issue is extremely serious. It is something that the previous Government, with Opposition support, tried to address and reduced by some 50%— but 50% is still there and we need to look at how we can take action on that. He is absolutely right that organised criminal gangs are very often behind this. There has been action from the National Rural Crime Unit and police forces to try to make arrests from those organised criminal gangs. Again, we need to have intelligence-led policing, co-ordination of PCCs feeding in intelligence and a national crime strategy that looks at how we can tackle that still further. That will be on the agenda of the Home Office and I hope that, when I am held to account by the noble Lord in due course, I will have made progress on reducing the 50% still further.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, will the Minister commit to working with the police to deliver the specialist training that officers in rural areas need, which has much broader implications for organised crime? For example, there have been two welcome prosecutions for hare coursing—which the right reverend Prelate did so much work on—as a result of the last Government’s Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill. Apparently, the criminals have refined their defences and are carrying on with this deplorable activity, which also facilitates considerable illegal, illicit gambling and, no doubt, many other activities necessary for organised crime, such as money laundering.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

Again, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his question. Organised crime gangs are muscling in on this in a serious way. It is absolutely vital that the police—through the National Rural Crime Unit, the Home Office generally, the Serious Fraud Office and the National Crime Agency—look at how organised crime gangs are operating. Last year, the cost of rural crime increased by 4.3% to £52.8 million, and that quad bike and terrain vehicle crime increased by 9%. These crimes are often led by organised crime groups, who use organised crime to disperse material. They need to face long jail sentences. They need to be caught and put before the courts and action needs to be taken. That needs co-ordination and I assure the noble Lord that we will do that.

[Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP)]

My Lords, I was on the Met Police authority for 12 long years of its existence. In that time, I asked many times for a category of rural crime to be on crime reports. I was told this week that that still does not exist and if you cannot count it, it is very difficult to know what resources to throw at it.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

There are a number of aspects to rural crime. What we do count, and what the National Farmers’ Union counted in its report, are things such as the cost of GPS theft, vehicle theft, equipment theft, the number of farm animals killed each year and the number of respondents who thought rural crime was increasing. We have statistics on that. We also have statistics on a range of matters such as the number of instances of badger baiting, hare coursing and other types of wildlife crime, such as dog fighting, that occurs in rural areas. There are obviously continual problems with shoplifting, burglary and theft in rural area, just as there is in towns and cities, but there are specific areas that we can measure and examine. Through the National Rural Crime Unit, we can begin to co-ordinate activity to reduce the instances of that and ensure that people are arrested, put before the courts, sentenced and ultimately jailed.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

There are issues on funding, for local authorities and police. We are only just getting back to the stage when I was last Police Minister in 2009-10, with the investment and figures we had then. That is something we need to look at and I will take that back and talk to colleagues in the department of local government as well. I would like to reply to the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, if possible.

Violent Disorder

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd September 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD)]

My Lords, the shocking deaths of three little girls in Southport, followed by the shocking disorder on our streets perpetrated by a minority of violent thugs, was truly frightening. There was racist mob violence in our towns and cities, clearly incited and organised by far-right groups and individuals —mainly online, where shockingly they shared the locations of hotels and hostels housing asylum seekers and migrants. We saw footage of thugs trying to set fire to some hotels, terrifying the people in them. The locations of immigration offices were leaked online, so they were facing attacks as well.

The bravery and professionalism of the police and emergency services are to be commended. They were dealing with what was sometimes an impossible job. However, it is disappointing that the Official Opposition has not mentioned the targeted attack on Muslim communities. They were clearly the focus of these attacks; online, we saw the most appalling Islamophobia and hate crimes. That affects not just Muslims in this country but those perceived to be Muslims, who were of course migrants and asylum seekers—and anyone perceived to be a supporter of or even associated with asylum seekers, or from an ethnic-minority community. I know of what I speak: members of my own family in some of these communities that were targeted, who wear visible headscarves, were terrified. Some of them felt that they could not stay in their homes, in an area such as Walthamstow that was targeted.

Does the Minister agree that to tackle record levels of hate crimes against Muslims we need a consistent and coherent approach to tackling Islamophobia, underpinned by a working definition to better understand what Islamophobia is and is not, in the way that we have—quite rightly—a working definition of anti-Semitism? Six years ago, the All-Party Parliamentary Group on British Muslims put forward the first working definition of Islamophobia after two years of consultation with 800 community groups up and down the country, with all faiths and with victims of hate crimes. That definition was accepted by all parties, apart from the last Government. Will this Government look to revisit that, and start to come to a proper understanding and definition of what we mean by Islamophobia? Do they intend to appoint an independent adviser on Islamophobia—a post that has been vacant for two years? Discrimination, prejudice and hatred damage everyone and the fabric of our society. We must work together to challenge it.

The Statement mentions far-right extremism, which has been on the rise. We saw some people on the streets with signs depicting Nazi emblems. Make no mistake, these people are entrenched in anti-Semitism if they support Nazi symbols and that kind of behaviour. The Statement mentions a review. Can the Minister set out whether enough attention is being given to tackling far-right extremism? Can he say a bit more about how the Government intend to look into that in the review?

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

I thank noble Lords for their contributions. Like the noble Lord on the Opposition Front Bench, I start my response where he started his: with the families of the victims in Southport and the families of the victims in Notting Hill. I cannot begin to imagine the pain that they have gone through, attending a dance class or a carnival and then finding dead bodies of young children and family members at the end of those events. We need to put that at the forefront of our minds. When the event happened on the Monday just before recess, our first thoughts were with the families.

The noble Lord mentioned—as was echoed by the noble Baroness from the Liberal Democrat Front Bench—that there is no excuse for the actions that followed the incident in Southport. It was thuggery and it was appalling behaviour, and it was in much part orchestrated by forces that we need to examine in the longer term and deal with accordingly.

For the interest of the House, we had 40,000 police hours over the course of those riots. I pay tribute from this Front Bench to police officers who gave up their leave, faced attacks, and stood for the values of this House and this Parliament in defending individuals from the Islamic community, and from other communities, who were under attack from forces which should have known better. Such forces will now have time to reflect, during their time in prison following judicial exercise, fair guilty pleas and/or—in due course—criminal convictions.

The noble Lord mentioned police independence. We fully support police independence. However, he will know that the Prime Minister, the Home Secretary, me and other Ministers in the Home Office met police shortly after those events to encourage and understand the response that they were going to make independently. Make no mistake, when criminal acts of intimidation and Islamophobia are committed, properties are burned down and legitimate sources of government support for asylum seekers are attacked, the courts will take action. Ultimately, those who have committed these crimes—if found guilty or pleading guilty—will face considerable sentences. That has been shown in the response to this House.

Both Front Benches have mentioned the question of a review. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary, the Prime Minister and the Home Office team will undertake a review not just of the incidents and the response, and not just of the capability of the response or how it was organised, but of the underlying factors behind those concerns. It will be a review of what led individuals across towns and cities in this United Kingdom to pick up rocks, attack their fellow citizens and attack not just people seeking asylum but long-standing residents with businesses in this country. That is not acceptable behaviour, and I hope that the government response, which I know the noble Lord on the Front Bench opposite has accepted, responded well to that point and has helped to close down the initial concern. But there remain long-term concerns that we need to deal with.

I say to both Front Benches that extremism on all sides is something that we have to take cognisance of; we must be responsible in our approach to it and look at the underlying causes. There is much radicalisation online; there are people in bedrooms on their own being radicalised from both the left and the right, and on a whole range of issues. We need to look at that in the longer term, and my right honourable friend in the House of Commons, Peter Kyle, the Secretary of State for DSIT, is going to look at how Facebook, Twitter and other social media platforms have responded and encouraged by their use what happened in the events that we have just seen.

The noble Lord’s question on anti-Semitism is equally as important as the point about Islamophobia. I want to see individuals in this society respected for their beliefs. I was very pleased to see, in discussions I had with members of the Church of England, that they had reached out to colleagues from the Jewish and Muslim communities and, particularly in Southport, had stood side by side to show support and that we have respect for religious beliefs. We respect the differences in those religious beliefs and understand that people live their lives and live their religious beliefs differently, but all have a right to live, breath and support themselves in the communities that we represent. That question of tolerance is one that should come from this House.

Let there be no mistake that a crime is a crime, and when people throw rocks, abuse, intimidate, organise on social media or encourage others to do so—we have 90 convictions of people who encouraged people to burn down asylum seekers’ properties—those are crimes. Those people will be held to account independently of Ministers and of the police, ultimately. The CPS will decide whether to charge, a court will determine whether guilt or innocence is in place and a sentence will be passed. That is a message that we will share—and I know that the noble Lord shares that message too.

I have a final point to make in response to points made by the noble Baroness on the Liberal Front Bench. She is right that the question of Islamophobia is extremely important. We live in a multicultural society. These are people of the Islamic faith who have been born here and whose fathers and mothers have been born here. It is not an issue of race but an issue of faith, and people have the right to express their faith openly, in accordance with their principles. One thing that we did in response to the attacks was to provide additional support to mosques in a protection fund. To go back to the point about anti-Semitism, that has applied equally to Jewish community organisations and facilities. We will continue to do that.

The message that this House should send out is quite clear. We live in a decent society, and those people who committed those offences did so in a way that is offensive to this House. We will collectively review what happened, look at what needs to be done and look at the underlying causes, but ultimately make sure that we have a tolerant, fair and open society.

[The Lord Bishop of Southwark]

My Lords, I express appreciation to the Minister and his right honourable friend the Home Secretary for the Government’s Statement. I extend heartfelt sympathy to the families of the victims of recent violent disorder. I support the Government’s strong and determined response, including the swift apprehension of perpetrators and bringing them to justice. I also applaud the strong and positive signal that this sends: protest cannot extend to violence and abuse. I am grateful that Members of the House have spoken so powerfully on the evil of anti-Semitic, Islamophobic and racist incidents, which the Minister rightly addressed as criminality. In addition to the measures announced, are His Majesty’s Government seeking to address, perhaps through an inquiry, some of the underlying economic and social issues that can render people vulnerable to exploitation and incitement, to their own cost and to the detriment of the wider community?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate for his response and the questions he has brought forward today. I am particularly pleased, as I mentioned, with the support that was given at the time of the incidents and the discussions we have had with colleagues around the response at a local level from members of the Church of England. I also welcome the condemnation he echoed of violent acts. He will know that the issues of community cohesion he mentioned are difficult issues to deal with, but ones that it is essential that this House and the Government grasp and take forward. I hope he will welcome that the Deputy Prime Minister is going to be leading on community cohesion. We will be looking at what we can do to bring groups together to look at how we bring together all the issues to which both Front Benches have referred.

While I cannot give assurances today on timescales or terms of reference, these will be issues that this House and the House of Commons return to regularly, because we have to tackle the underlying causes of individuals feeling alienated from society. There is no excuse for that behaviour—it is criminal behaviour and will be dealt with as criminal behaviour—but we still have to understand the reasons why people have fallen into that criminal behaviour, just as we would on any other aspect of criminal behaviour. I give the right reverend Prelate the assurance that that will be undertaken by the Deputy Prime Minister and others in the coming months.

[Lord Carlile of Berriew (CB)]

My Lords, in welcoming everything that has been said so far in this debate, and welcoming my old friend to this House and to the Front Bench, I ask him whether he agrees that the actions of online entities such as Channel3Now in Pakistan, allowing online advertising sites to make money by purveying violent, demonstrably deliberate untruths about the country we live in, is wholly unacceptable. I suggest that at least the possibility of further regulation should be used to compel internet entities to see it as their duty to refute the broadcasting of such content.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

It is nice to see the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, again. We have seen each other in a number of guises over the years, and I am as surprised as he is to find myself here today responding to these issues. He raises an extremely important and valid point. Much of the content that fired the organisation of some of the events we saw, not just in Southport but across the whole United Kingdom, began its life in an internet or social media post that encouraged poor behaviour, not just in the UK but, as the noble Lord said, outside the United Kingdom.

The Online Safety Act was passed by both Houses in the last Parliament and was the child of the previous Government. The level of implementation of some of the measures in that Act needs to be looked at. My right honourable friend Peter Kyle, the Secretary of State for DSIT, has met with social media providers to look at the internet and what role it played, and we will review the policy over time. This is an organically growing issue, but the points the noble Lord mentioned are extremely valid, are registered by this Government and are ones that this Government will look at and take forward in due course.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome my former colleague to the Dispatch Box again, though in a different Chamber. First, I congratulate the Government on their response to those who used violence and hatred during the period of which we are speaking. They were decisive and fair and observed the separation between politics and operational capabilities. I think it reassured a great many people in this country that the Government acted so quickly and so decisively.

Secondly, I will say how much I welcomed the Minister’s comments about addressing—to use an old cliché—not only crime but the causes of crime. There is no doubt in my mind that there are deep underlying causes to what we saw. The Minister mentioned online social media. I believe they are instrumental but not the underlying causes. In my view, the underlying causes lie in the poisoned chalice that the Government have been given of apparently unlimited immigration, huge reductions in public services and the language used for the past 10 years describing immigrants as “dangerous aliens” whether they are legal or illegal immigrants. Can my noble friend assure me that the Labour Government will address all three causes over the next few years: the nature and level of immigration, the language used about it and the protection of public services? If we do not address those causes, this sort of thing will happen again.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

Again, I am grateful to my noble friend for his contribution. He knows as much as anybody in this House, given his previous role as Home Secretary, about the difficult challenges that we face here.

To assure him on the Prime Minister’s commitment, we want to review how the policing capability was undertaken. That is not to interfere with operational policing but, following the Prime Minister’s announcement of the national violent disorder programme, to try to bring together good practice, look at where there needs to be resilience and make sure that forces support each other, which is a natural part of the policing landscape. It is extremely important to review what happened. As has been mentioned, we need to look at what happened at Harehills; there may not have been sufficient policing to deal with it. There is a whole range of issues and we can learn lessons. It is not for a Minister to direct chief constables, of the Met or anywhere else, but it is for a Minister to hold them to account and ensure that people, as mentioned by both Front Benches, are protected as a whole.

My noble friend also mentioned the whole question of migration. I spent a long period over the past 10 years as shadow Immigration Minister and know that it is a toxic debate at times. In my view, immigration falls into three or four categories: immigration for everyone from the centre forward of a football team through to a professor or somebody else coming to this country because they are an expert in their field and bringing a contribution to the growth of our economy, versus people coming on a boat seeking asylum or people coming here completely illegally. The debate needs to be put into the context of how we manage that. We need to detoxify the debate to ensure that we deal with asylum and speed up asylum claims; deal with people who have come here illegally, because we must have integrity in the migration system; and make sure that, in doing that, we do not turn away people who will help us grow our economy or bring skills and challenges to our society.

That is all on the agenda. I am still surprised that we are only seven weeks into this Government. We will look at those issues and I will report on progress to this House on a regular basis, as well as being held to account over the next few years.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, I join in condemning the attacks on police officers, mosques and asylum seekers and the places where people believed they were. I also support the officers who carried on walking forward when they were being bricked, despite occasionally not having the full equipment. We saw, particularly in Southport, some serious injuries to officers who still kept walking forward. They did an excellent job.

I ask the Minister to consider two big issues in the review that he mentioned. First, there was clearly a lack of intelligence at times about the groups involved— what they were planning and how many would turn up. Sometimes over the last few years it has become difficult to use some of the most intrusive surveillance gathering against political extremists. We understand why—obviously, political parties should not be targeted in that way—but, where politics veers into violence, that is a different matter altogether. It is vital that informants, undercover officers and all those intrusive things that only Home Secretaries can authorise are available to use against this type of people, whether from the left or the right—although at the moment we are particularly worried about the right and its ability to organise.

The second area that the review might consider is the number of officers that can be mobilised together quickly and in large numbers. It was mentioned that by the time that the riots started to subside, around 4,000 officers were being deployed. This sounds like a lot, but when you consider that in Notting Hill recently—where two murders sadly occurred—7,000 officers were deployed in about half a square mile, and that the riots of 2011 were only subdued when 16,000 officers were patrolling the streets of this city, I do wonder whether sufficient officers were available quickly enough.

Should things recur, I believe the Home Office has a proper, strategic role to play in this, to ensure that forces are ready and rapidly able to reinforce. I am certainly aware of forces waiting hours for reinforcements to arrive when one would hope it would be minutes.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

Again, I am grateful to the noble Lord for bringing his significant expertise in this area to the Statement and to the long-term debate on this issue. First and foremost, I join him in paying tribute to the brave officers who held that line in the face of violent attacks that could have caused—and did cause—considerable harm to injured officers. That is a depleting factor on police forces in a particular area.

It is important to note that on Saturday 10 August, 6,675 officers were deployed in a single day to hold back criminal riotous behaviour. Those 6,675 officers put themselves on the front line, but in doing so they were also not doing other duties. That is one of the reasons why, immediately after the riots began, the Prime Minister said he would set up a national programme to look at deployment of resources, capability and how this was dealt with. I hope the noble Lord will welcome this.

The extremely important point was made that intelligence-led policing is absolutely vital to ensure that we get ahead of what is happening. That means using important—but difficult and challenging—tactics which involve looking at social media posts, tracking and looking at the capability of potential offenders and advising forces on how to deal with them in potential hotspots. I have no problem whatever in using the tools available to protect the public, because nobody forces anybody to organise a riot or to attack buildings and mosques and nobody says “Let’s burn this down” unless they are—or are potentially—going to commit criminal offences.

If we can nip those in the bud through the better organisation of policing or by the recognition of techniques that will bring convictions through the independent forces of the law, the police, the CPS and the courts, good on that, because that will protect the type of people that the noble Baroness from the Liberal Front Bench and the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, indicated need protecting.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I was born in Harehills in Leeds, as I believe was the noble Baroness, Lady Blake of Leeds. It is a terribly deprived community and I still live about three miles from there. Will the Minister, whom I welcome to his post, join me in condemning those who immediately sought to exploit the appalling violence that took place in Harehills for their own political ends, using language that was designed only to stoke division and tension within that community, and did so from the luxury of Milwaukee? I refer, of course, to the leader of Reform UK.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful for the noble Lord’s welcome to me coming to this position. The Member for Clacton, if that was the Member he was referring to, is responsible for his own comments, in his own way and in his own time. He should be held to account by people in Clacton and by the wider community for any comments he makes. It is not for me to comment on that; it is for him to make those comments. What I will say is that, whenever things happen—as they do—we need to look at, and take action on, that criminal behaviour and close it down. Sometimes, it happens with summer activity, with people having too much to drink over long nights; sometimes, it is fuelled by right-wing violence and, other times, it is fuelled by other activity. If, underneath that, there are long-term trends of Islamophobia, anti-Semitism, right-wing ideology or, indeed, extreme left-wing ideology, we need to look, in a cold, calm way, at what has caused that, how we deal with it, how—following the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe—we intelligently police it and, ultimately, how we bring people to court if they have committed criminal offences. What Ministers can do is put the architecture together for that. The Prime Minister has been trying to look at the lessons learned from the initial response, which surprised many of us in that week after Southport, to see how we can improve that response and listen to what the police say about their own lessons. If that involves action by the Home Office in support of policing, that is what we will do.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I know that the Government are very conscious of the UK’s international reputation. I want to know whether there is any ministerial concern about the many free speech and civil liberties organisations around the world expressing shock about the degree of state- backed censorship being greenlighted in the wake of the riots. There is a worry that there is too easy a slippage and conflation between physical violence, which we can all condemn, and speech offences. The majority of people have not been incarcerated for incitement. They may have put out bigoted memes that we can deplore; none the less, people in the UK are being imprisoned not for what they do but for what they say. As there seem to be threats of more censorship, I want the Minister to reassure me that we will not end up in a situation where these riots, which were tragic enough, will chill legitimate debate and lead to a censorious, authoritarian atmosphere where people are frightened to speak freely.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

There is freedom of speech, and I made it very clear in the wake of the riots that people are entitled to criticise the UK Government’s asylum policy, immigration policy or any aspect of UK government policy. What they are not entitled to do is to incite racial hatred, to incite criminal activity, to incite attacks on mosques or to incite burnings or other criminal, riotous behaviour. That is the threshold. The threshold is not me saying, “I do not like what they have said”—there are lots of things that I do not like that people have said; the threshold is determined by criminal law, is examined by the police and is referred to the CPS. The CPS examines whether there is a criminal charge to account for, which is then either made through a guilty plea and a sentence, which happened with the majority of people who now face time in prison, or put in front of a court for a jury of 12 peers to determine whether an offence has been committed. There is no moratorium on criticism of political policy in the United Kingdom. There is free speech in this United Kingdom, but free speech also has responsibilities, and one responsibility is not to incite people to burn down their neighbour’s property.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, my noble friend the Minister will be aware of the analysis by the European Consortium for Political Research, which was published only two weeks ago and substantially reinforces the question that my noble friend Lord Reid asked. The correlation between the location of violence and the incidence of child poverty in any area was significantly greater than the correlation between rioting and the presence of any of the other, many factors that people have attributed the violence to. Does my noble friend agree that any response to the riots must go beyond punishment and look to restore the essentials of economic equity, viable public services and greater equality, the absence of which appears to make violent disorder significantly more likely?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

My noble friend makes extremely valid points about the examination of the causes. As I have said to this noble House, the Home Office, via the Deputy Prime Minister and her department, wishes to look at some of the wider issues of social deprivation that may or may not have contributed to these riots. However—if I can again draw both Front Benches opposite back in—we still have to focus on the points that were made in this debate: irrespective of social conditions in a particular area, scapegoating and attacking citizens or individuals who have in many cases no relationship to those causes is simply not acceptable, so they have to face the law. However, those are certainly important issues that need to be examined as part of the long-term mix on preventing further activity such as happened over this summer.

International Law Enforcement Alerts Platform

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Monday 2nd September 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the implementation of phase 2 of the International Law Enforcement Alerts Platform (ILEAP) and the progress towards reaching a data sharing agreement with the European Union.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

The Government are committed to resetting the UK’s relationship with the EU, as set out in the Government’s manifesto. This includes seeking a new security agreement with the EU to ensure access to real-time intelligence. This could be an opportunity to expand the existing I-LEAP service to enhance mutual capabilities for alert exchange with trusted international partners, as was envisaged in phase 2 of the I-LEAP programme in the first place.

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)]

One of the problems and one of the results of our leaving the European Union was, of course, the complete removal of the automatic exchange of data between our criminal enforcement authorities. This put our country’s security in great danger. The previous Government’s initiative with I-LEAP has got off the ground, but it is not a proper replacement for SIS II, which was the way in which we conveyed such information previously. I therefore ask the Minister to put a lot of emphasis and priority on restoring the position of this country and its relationship with those with whom we need to share data to deal with criminality and terrorism.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right that the loss of SIS II was very disconcerting, both for our European partners and for us. Many of us, including me, warned about that aspect before we left the European Union in 2019-20. The noble Lord makes the very important point that the current I-LEAP programme is about making sure that we now have 46 police forces involved in real-time data exchange. We will look at how we can expand that to the mutual exchange of data in the long term. My right honourable friends the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary have been very clear that we need to secure a new security agreement with the EU, as is committed to in the manifesto. That means looking at the whole range of issues, including how we can protect our own citizens and European citizens in the most effective way.

[Lord Ricketts (CB)]

My Lords, the House of Lords European Affairs Committee has been hard at work taking evidence on the issue of data sharing between this country and the EU. Given the importance of those arrangements, both for sharing data on law enforcement and for businesses across the country, can the Minister assure us that the Government will consult the European Commission while they frame the digital information and smart data Bill, to ensure that its provisions do not inadvertently jeopardise continued data adequacy arrangements with the EU?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful for the point made by the noble Lord. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary has already met with Commissioner Johansson, the EU’s justice and home affairs commissioner, to look at how we can increase co-operation as a whole. As Members will know, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister met a number of European leaders over the past seven weeks since the election and is looking at how we can strengthen that very point. It is absolutely critical that we protect our citizens in the most effective way. The exchange of information on data is absolutely vital to ensure that we know which criminals are operating in Europe. We track and monitor those criminals, and take action on a joint basis with the European Union where appropriate.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, in the accounting officer assessment of the current I-LEAP programme, which was updated in May of this year, phase 2 was described as “a longer-term objective” which remains

“at a very early stage”.

What assessment has my noble friend the Minister made of the progress achieved by the last Government in reaching a data-sharing agreement? If, as those words imply, progress was halting or minimal, what changes can we make to our approach to hasten progress, given how important it is, as my noble friend said?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to my noble friend. The House will understand that we are where we are. SIS II finished in 19-20 and—

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

In 2020.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

My noble friend misinterprets me: I mean the years 2019 and 2020, when our exit from the European Union was completed—I was right in the first place.

In doing that, a gap was left. I give credit to the last Government for recognising that gap. They introduced I-LEAP, which has had 20 million searches and given 79,000 law enforcement users access to real-time data. Some 46 forces are now involved in that, and, with my support, the programme will move on to phase 2. What we need to do is look at a European-wide security agreement, which my right honourable friend the Prime Minister will do as a matter of urgency.

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister has already answered the question that I planned to ask—and positively, which is encouraging. Instead, I will ask for his assurance that Border Security Command will have access to the new system—now and as it goes forward—given that smuggling and trafficking is rightly high on the Government’s agenda.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I can give the noble Baroness the assurance that the Government are committed to undertaking that action. Phase 1 included 46 forces, in Scotland, Northern Ireland and England. We are looking to expand that, so that we can have real-time data—and, in future, real-time assessments of mutual sharing—to attack the real issues that matter to the people we serve: people trafficking, drug smuggling and terrorism, and a whole range of other criminal activity. That is the most important thing, and I hope that there is cross-party support in this House for the actions that the Government will take.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

Could the Minister provide assurances to the House that August’s announcement of the withdrawal of £1.3 billion-worth of tech funding will not have any consequences for national security programmes, including the rollout of further phases of programmes such as I-LEAP?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the honourable gentleman—or rather, with my apologies, the noble Lord; I am getting used to the House—for his comments and for the work that he undertook on these issues in the past as lead Minister in the Lords in the Home Office. He will recognise that we have a job to do, which is to make sure that we secure our borders, secure information, and tackle criminal gangs and criminal activity. That is what we intend to do. I do not anticipate that this Government will be watering down any commitments on those issues in the near future.

King’s Speech

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Wednesday 24th July 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab) (Maiden Speech)]

I am grateful to noble Lords for the debate that has taken place today. I have been struck by the expertise in this Chamber, from the Lord Chief Justice and senior police officers through to former Home Secretaries and people who have concerns about the issues before us that the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice will have to participate in over the next few weeks and months, based on the policies outlined in the gracious Speech.

I thank noble Lords from all sides of the House for their contributions. I particularly want to praise the maiden speech of my noble friend Lord Timpson. We first met many years ago when I was the Prisons Minister and he was from the Timpson shoe company, trying to ensure that we had operational support for prisoners in prisons. I still have a mug at home from my noble friend from when we opened the Timpson workshop in Liverpool Prison in Walton in 2007. It is a proud part of my previous ministerial life that we were able to work in co-operation, as we will do now.

I pay tribute also to the maiden speech of the noble Lord, Lord Goodman of Wycombe. Initially, I did not know how to respond to what he said but, given what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, I want to say that my grandfather fought on the Somme as well. We had an opportunity only last October to go to Bazentin in France to visit the people who did not come home when my grandfather did. I hope that, whatever else we do in this House, we can share a discussion, perhaps over a cup of tea, about our relatives’ contribution to the security of Britain in World War I.

I find myself in a very strange position in responding to a debate as a newly appointed Home Office Minister but, in doing so, making my maiden speech in this noble and historic House. Life comes very fast. Only two weeks ago today, I was driving back from Heathrow when the phone call came. I now find myself in this noble House as a Minister of State doing a maiden speech. Life moves fast.

I last made a maiden speech over 32 years ago in the House of Commons—thinner in body and with more hair, but with similar nerves to those that preceded today. A lot of water has passed under the bridge since then, not least my having the chance to serve in the House of Commons for 27 years and to hold office in government in some fantastic departments with some fabulous civil servants: the Home Office, Justice and Northern Ireland. If the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, is here, he will know that I take an interest in that topic still today. I was also in the Wales Office and on the Intelligence and Security Committee of both Houses for the last five years of my time in the House of Commons.

I now find myself, much to my surprise, back in the Home Office as Minister of State once again. For the last four years, since leaving the House of Commons in 2019 in a fashion that was not really to my liking, I have been a member of the board of Nacro—for the care and resettlement of offenders. Again, I was looking at the issues I will face now in ministerial life.

If I may, I will reach out to the Opposition and welcome their support on the areas where we have co-operation. Having been in that position, I know how difficult it is when office has been lost. But to back up what the noble Baroness, Lady Bottomley, said earlier, opposition is one of the key roles that a parliamentarian can undertake. We have to be held to account as a Government and the role Members of this House will have in that is something that I will cherish. I will try to respond in a positive way to noble Lords in this House, so I wish the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, well—perhaps not too well—in this House and in that role.

I also want to welcome in my maiden speech the support I have had from Black Rod, officers of the House, Home Office officials and Garter. I publicly thank them for their support. I also thank my family—Margaret, my wife, and my children—who thought, as indeed did I, that my days as a Minister were done.

I join this house as Baron Hanson of Flint in the county of Flintshire, my home for these past 32 years and the place from where the noble Baroness, Lady Fox of Buckley, emanates originally. From my bedroom window I can see the spires of Liverpool Cathedral, in the city where I was born, and the plains of Cheshire where I grew up. I cannot quite see Hull University, where the noble Baroness, Lady Bottomley, served and where I went, but I can see those. If anybody is interested, I was born in the same hospital as that well-known musician Sir Paul McCartney of the Beatles, noted for such songs as “We Can Work It Out”, which will be my approach to working in this House, and, of course, that classic song for new Ministers, “Help!”.

I understand that the Prime Minister’s father was a toolmaker.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

Noble Lords will correct me if I am wrong. My father was a coalminer, later a fork-lift truck driver; my mum a packer in a biscuit factory, later a records clerk. They taught me values that I hope I can bring to the work of this House—of honesty, hard work and aspiration, and of treating all people with respect. I hope to keep to those values and be held to account for them in my dealings with noble Members of this House.

Flint, which people may or may not know of, nestles on the north-east side of north Wales, close to the Cheshire border. It is a vibrant town and its people make things. Courtaulds grew in the town and steel manufacture dominated. Today, noble Lords may have flown on an Airbus made in that constituency by people who live there. There is food manufacture and it is a centre for paper products. Ian Rush, the leading goal-scorer of my football team, and that of the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Lympne, was born there. Double Olympian Jade Jones, who is going for a third gold—I hope the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, will pass on our best to her in Paris next month—was forged in the town.

The town itself was the product of a castle that still stands, almost a thousand years on. It may interest Members, as I finalise my maiden speech bit of my maiden speech, that Flint castle is the subject of the second act of Shakespeare’s “Richard II”. It provides a salutary lesson for those who hold power in the state, as Richard II was deposed there after offending his barons and bishops—a fate I shall try to avoid in your Lordships’ House. Richard was taken to Pontefract, now in the constituency of my right honourable friend the Home Secretary, where he was left to wither and die. If those two portents are not omens for me to work with this House in a collaborative way, I do not know what is. Anyway, to business.

A number of main issues were raised by noble Lords during this debate, and I will try to cover each in turn. Net migration and illegal migration, including Rwanda, were raised by the noble Lords, Lord Mann, Lord Jackson, Lord Howard of Lympne, Lord Taylor of Goss Moor, Lord Kirkhope, Lord Roberts of Llandudno, Lord Marlesford and Lord Green. I will return to those issues in a moment, but they are obviously key parts of the Bills that will come before this House in due course.

The second big issue is police reform and performance, and crime reduction. A number of Members raised that—I particularly noted the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, who brings his expertise to the table.

The third issue is security. The noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller, brought up state threats, security and wider issues that have already been brought to my attention, that we will need to refer to and that will be reflected in the Home Office’s approach to the work of this department in due course.

Violence against women and girls was focused on by the noble Lord, Lord McNally, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Owen of Alderley Edge, Lady Newlove, Lady Hughes of Stretford, Lady Chakrabarti, Lady Royall and Lady Gohir—she particularly raised ethnic community issues. I will return to that in a moment.

On the terrorism Bill and Martyn’s law, we welcome that it has cross-party support. Again, had the previous Government been re-elected, they would undoubtedly have brought this forward. I will refer to this in a moment.

The issue of shop workers is close to my heart. I was pleased to have the support of the noble Baroness, Lady Bray, and the noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope, on this because I am a member of USDAW, the shop workers’ union. Members can refer to my final speech in the House of Commons on 5 November 2019 on violence against shop workers and the need for the legislation brought forward by this Government.

Prisons have obviously been a major issue in our discussions today. I noticed that the right reverend Prelate Bishop of Gloucester, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Burnett of Maldon, and the noble Lords, Lord Dholakia, Lord Blunkett, Lord Dubs and Lord Macdonald of River Glaven, all raised issues—which, again, I will come back to in a moment—concerning prevention, structures of crime, intervention, IPPs and remand prisoners, as well as alternatives to custody, which the noble Lord, Lord Beith, mentioned. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Bellamy, mentioned family justice; the noble Lord, Lord Meston, mentioned court delays; and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, mentioned the CCRC. He is an old sparring partner of mine, but I am sure we will get on fine in this House.

The importance of the rule of law was raised by the noble Baronesses, Lady Ludford and Lady Chakrabarti, my noble friend Lord Bach, and the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Sentamu. Whatever else has happened, I hope the mood will have changed in this House with the Government coming in. Things like the UNHCR, the rule of law and respecting the independence of the judiciary will be core principles of this Government in their operation in this House. The noble Lord, Lord Farmer, mentioned some issues I will return to. My noble friend Lady Chakrabarti hit the nail on the head: there will be a change of tone in this discussion. That was reflected by the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, in his comments on the toxic atmosphere.

I will go through those issues and try to reflect what has been said. On border security, asylum and migration, we will bring forward a Bill that will set down plans for a strong and secure border. We will put a border security commander in place as soon as possible and ensure that we give law enforcement agencies new counterterror powers to crack down on criminal gangs. I certainly welcome the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Howard, that we perhaps have a bit of an entente cordiale with the French. I went to Calais as the shadow Immigration Minister in 2014, and it was clear that that co-operation will be central to ensuring that we stop that trade as a whole on both sides of the channel. So the discussions that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has already had are very valuable and will be valuable for the future.

We need to look at a range of issues. I know that some Members do not like this, and I know that some Members have opposed and will oppose this plan, but scrapping the Rwanda plan for us is part of that overall strategy. We are saving currently around £700 million by doing that, and that money will be reinvested in some of the challenges that the noble Lord, Lord Howard, and other noble Lords, have mentioned.

My noble friend Lord Dubs talked about speeding up asylum claims. We are laying a statutory instrument to allow asylum claimants after 7 March 2023 to look at receiving an early decision on their claim. We have to tackle that backlog. It is really important that we do that, and there will be ministerial focus from my honourable friends who serve in the House of Commons as Ministers in this Home Office to do that.

We have taken action early on to end the contract with “Bibby Stockholm” from January of next year. That will be managed—the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, asked about that. There will be more discussions about it, but the principle is that it is not the type of accommodation that this Government wish to put people in. Therefore, it has stopped. We will exit it, and we will discuss it with local authorities, but it has stopped. The noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, talked particularly about the quality of accommodation, and that is something that we need to address.

The second big issue that Members raised is crime and policing. There will be a Bill, and it will have significant impact on neighbourhood policing, driving higher policing standards, cracking down on anti-social behaviour, tackling retail crime, as the noble Baroness, Lady Bray, and the noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope, mentioned, and tackling knife crime. The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, my noble friend Lord Hughes of Stretford, the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, from the Liberal Democrat Front Bench, and the noble Lord, Lord Marks, in his contribution at the end, have all raised the importance of those issues: neighbourhood policing, refocusing law and order, and making sure that we invest in policing but also deal things that matter to people. Anti-social behaviour, knife crime and retail crime matter to people, and we have to respect that concern by putting in place legislation that will support police powers to deal with those.

There is a tension occasionally, and my noble friend Lord Timpson and I will discuss how we deal with those penalties and issues, but the important thing that this Government want to do for the crime and policing Bill is to send a signal that we have to take back our streets and halve serious violence while increasing confidence in policing. Some of those issues will be about how we look at the issues that the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, mentioned, such as police support, improving standards and making sure that we look at failing forces. That will be done in due course. Overall trust and confidence in police needs to be driven up in all communities, and that is one of the Government’s objectives.

The third big issue that Members talked about was the terrorism protection and premises Bill, known colloquially as Martyn’s law. I pay tribute to Figen Murray, the mother of Martyn Hett, for raising the issues with the former Prime Minister and the current Prime Minister. I remember watching the events at Manchester Arena, where 22 victims died. The requirements that we are going to bring forward will be consulted on, and there will be discussions about how that impacts, but it is important that we take action on that. The noble Lord, Lord Wolfson, mentioned the importance of action on terrorism, and we will be looking at all the other issues that are around. This not a panacea, but it will be a help and support to staff with training and requirements, which will mean that it will help, I hope, in the event of a terrorist activity coming down stream. There will be additional help and support to try that type of action.

We have looked in a big debate today in this House at the whole issue of reoffending. The noble Lords, Lord Carter of Haslemere and Lord Macdonald of River Glaven, the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, the noble Lord, Lord Farmer, the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester, and the noble Lords, Lord Lucas, Lord Moynihan, Lord Patten and Lord Waldegrave, focused on a whole range of issues around the really important question of how we reduce reoffending. I know that we reduce it, as my noble friend does, by providing housing support, training, action on substance misuse and support on jobs, just as much as we do with the prison or community-based experience. We need to look at how we can reduce reoffending by giving offenders who are leaving prison the tools to move away from crime. That is a key issue that we will both look at jointly. We need to ensure that we tackle the intergenerational offending to which Members have also referred.

There is a need to look at a whole range of issues, in particular—I know that it is a difficult issue—that of releasing prisoners early. If the prison places are not there, we have to look at mechanisms for doing that. The Government’s temporary reduction in the proportion of certain custodial sentences from 50% to 40%, with important safeguards, is to try to ensure that we keep prison for serious violent offenders and that there is availability for that. But we are managing that transition, in that short period of time and on that temporary basis, with some of the safeguards that I know the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, wanted to have. I can give her the assurance that there will be victim input into the release scheme, and that the victim contact scheme will be available for all the usual information and updates about developments in their own case. I know how much this means to her, and she can have my assurance that the Labour Government will do that in due course.

Female offenders are extremely important, as has been well raised by Members today. Baroness Jean Corston produced the Corston report a long time ago; it landed on my desk as a Minister in 2007. We implemented a number of things to do with the issues in that report, but obviously there is more that we can do. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, said that there are issues there. I recognise that short custodial sentences have poor outcomes for women; I recognise that they exacerbate the issues of employment, housing and maintaining family ties. I understand that the reoffending rate for women serving short custodial sentences is almost double and that, therefore, they are even more vulnerable. We need to look at what we can do to intervene early, to reverse that decline and to ensure that we potentially look at robust community sentences for women—again, this is an area of co-operation between the MoJ and the Home Office—and try to have only serious violent offenders in prison.

A number of noble Lords registered their interest in IPP prisoners; I know that this too is a difficult issue. The noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Fox of Buckley and Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, all raised it. It is a situation of great concern. We know that a number of Members on both sides of this House care deeply about it—I share that concern personally. We have supported the previous Government in some sensible plans, and we will revisit this and examine how we—the MoJ and the Home Office—can ensure both public safety and a reasonable outcome for those who are currently on IPP prison sentences.

The issue of violence against women and girls is extremely important. Jess Phillips, as the Minister, has absolute 125% commitment to tackling this issue. She has read out, in my presence in the House of Commons, the names of women who have been killed by partners or in domestic instances, and she will do all she can to ensure that the objectives shared by the noble Baronesses, Lady Gohir and Lady Royall, and others are put into practice. We have to look at how we can halve the number of offences against women and girls and stop the senseless deaths. That means improving action with police; improving action with legislation; improving the range of specialist rape and sexual offences teams; mandating domestic abuse experts; and strengthening stalking protection. We will do that.

Other issues raised by noble Lords include the point raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, about the Criminal Cases Review Commission. I am telling him what he already knows, but it is important that he knows it publicly: the Lord Chancellor has said publicly that she considers that Ms Pitcher is unfit to fulfil her duties as chair of the CCRC. It is an independent body, and the Lord Chancellor has decided to make a referral to an independent panel. It will assess the recommendations and whether it supports the Lord Chancellor’s view. It is then a matter for a recommendation to His Majesty the King; that is the process that will take place. I know that the noble and learned Lord knows that, but it is worth responding to him on that point.

The noble Lord, Lord Farmer, asked for confirmation of prisoner-to-prisoner mentoring being pioneered, particularly in the north-east cluster of prisons. It is a very well-established issue and has the support of many local authorities. He has done some great work, if I may pay tribute to him, on that in government. I have no doubt that we can try to continue to support that process in due course. I am grateful to him for his tireless dedication and research on this issue, and we will look at how we can support that in due course. I also think that the family hub model is one that we would wish to continue and support.

We had a bit of a debate about legal aid and I shall try to respond. My noble friends Lord Shamash and Lord Bach raised the importance of legal aid. Legal aid is vital to the justice system. Noble Lords would expect me to say this, but we think it is slightly broken and needs to be reviewed. We will look at how we can use the opportunity to rebuild our justice system and we are keen to look at ways to take forward those measures and bring measures back to this House and the House of Commons in due course.

Another issue raised today is that of the Hillsborough law, raised by the noble Baronesses, Lady Ludford and Lady Jones, as well as other Members. I cannot read my own writing so I will have to come back to that in due course, but it is an important issue. I am from Liverpool and the people in Liverpool who support that team and that community know how wronged they feel, having to fight their way through the bureaucracy of people in public positions lying to them about what happened on that day. I have friends who went there, I had former constituents who died there and I have colleagues who have sat in the other place and argued since 1998 for justice on this. I think this is a good thing to do. We need to consult on it, we have had discussions about the penalties, but it is a good thing to do. It will bring closure to so many people and it will also set precedents in future for how, when the state fails, the citizen has redress. That is a good thing and therefore this Bill, when it comes before this House, will deliver our manifesto commitment to implement a Hillsborough law, and I could not be more pleased or proud if I get the opportunity to stand at this Dispatch Box and speak to it in due course.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Bellamy, and the noble Lord, Lord Marks, both mentioned the Arbitration Bill. The work that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Bellamy, has done as Minister on that Bill is very welcome. We give a commitment today that we will reintroduce that Bill at the earliest opportunity, although I cannot yet say when that will be.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

Next Tuesday.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

How about that? Tuesday. Rewind, delete Hansard, replace with, “We will introduce this Bill on Tuesday of next week”. It is a good thing and we thank the noble and learned Lord for undertaking it.

The noble Lord, Lord Godson, discussed Prevent and the question of extremism. It is a concern I share with him. There are some undercurrents in the actions over the election that I think need to be examined and that is something we will do. Not to jump to any conclusions, but we need to look at doing that and we will undertake it in due course. There will be a cross-government approach to that. The noble Lord will know, as I know, that the Home Office alone dealing with this, or even the MoJ alone dealing with this will not be sufficient to deal with some of the underlying activity: we need to have community resilience through various government departments addressing those issues. It is something I had a responsibility for a hundred years ago, some time around 2007, and I look forward to having that responsibility once more.

The noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, talked about conversion therapy. I give her the assurance that this will be a draft Bill: there will be an opportunity to get stuck in and give a view, and the Government will take a view when we have had a view—if that makes positive sense.

Members also raised the issue of fraud and what we will do on that. Again, I have been given responsibility for that by the Home Secretary and I will be assessing what we need to take forward on it. I have not yet done that because I am two weeks into the job, but it will be done, there will be an assessment and the Opposition and my noble friends can quiz me and hold me to account on what we do over a longer period of time than we currently have at the moment.

As a Minister, I give the House two assurances. If Members wish to see me about a particular issue, my door will be open—it is less trouble to open my door than it is to face parliamentary questions, debate and pressure downstream. My door will always be open if Members wish to have a discussion, collectively or individually. I am happy to engage, as will be my colleagues in the ministerial team. Where we have disagreements, as we will, we will vote on it and see what the outcome is, but I hope to work to the principle I mentioned earlier: to try to reach a consensus on “we can work it out”. I hope we do so in a civil, proactive and productive way.

Finally, this Government are about change. An election was fought on change and change is what the United Kingdom voted for: change to reduce reoffending, improve police performance, increase police numbers and put people back on the beat; change to take long-term action to tackle organised criminal gangs who are exploiting people crossing the channel; change to speed up the asylum system; change to improve outcomes regarding violence against women and girls; and change to tackle the real challenges we will face in this department. We will do so in a way that ensures we meet our international obligations, support communities and deal with our society in civilised, forward-facing way. I do not wish to go back to the debates of the late 20s. We need to go forward to ensure that we co-operate with our European partners, respect the law and deliver for those who elected my right honourable friend the Prime Minister and over 400 Members of Parliament to do a job for my party and, most of all, for our country. I want to work with Members of this House to do that, and I am pleased to commend the King’s Speech to this House.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, before we adjourn, I congratulate my noble friend on a wonderful maiden speech. We look forward to hearing from him many more times—as he is a Home Office Minister, we will be hearing from him every week.

My noble friend comes to the House with a formidable record; he is respected on all sides, respected in the other place, and we are lucky to have him here. I worked with him a couple of years ago. We were both sent to Liverpool to deal with some problems in the Liverpool Labour party. I can assure colleagues that it is an exciting and challenging place, and I am so pleased my noble friend was there with me.

Retail Crime Prevention

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Tuesday 5th November 2019 Westminster Hall

[David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered prevention of retail crime.

Welcome to the Chair, Mr Betts, for the final day of activity in this Parliament. I wanted to raise the issue of retail crime today because it is still an important one that the House needs to consider. I shall discuss a number of matters that I hope will give the Minister food for thought but also provoke responses on some of the key issues that hon. Members collectively have raised in the House during the past couple of years.

I am raising retail crime because it is an important issue—indeed, a key issue—and sadly is often overlooked. The British Retail Consortium, one of the major organisations representing retailers, estimates that the cost of spending by retailers on crime prevention and of losses to the industry as a result of crime is a staggering £1.9 billion each year. That £1.9 billion cost is passed on to us as consumers and is having a major impact on the ability of retailers, at a challenging time on high streets, to make a profit and ensure that they have a profitable and valued business.

Let us consider crime as a whole. More than £700 million has been lost through shoplifting—customer theft—an issue to which I shall return. That represents a 31% rise in shoplifting on the previous year.

[Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend both on securing this debate and on all his campaigning on this issue. He is rightly highlighting the economic cost of retail crime. Does he agree that there is also a human cost to retail crime and that we must do all we can to protect those who work in shops from threats of physical violence?

[David Hanson]

My hon. Friend makes a valuable point. I am starting with the financial cost of crime, but I will come in a moment to the key issue, of which the Minister will be aware, of the consultation regarding attacks on shop staff.

[Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on securing the debate. I draw the House’s attention to my membership of and support from both the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers and the GMB, which represent shop workers in my constituency. My right hon. Friend and my hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds) have mentioned attacks on shop workers. In the Trafford Centre in my constituency, there have also been physical attacks on shoppers—gangs were threatening them with knives. Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is not just protection of shop workers that is a crucial factor in this debate, but the wider protection of the public?

--- Later in debate ---

[David Hanson]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that issue. I had not intended to refer to it in this debate, but self-evidently, in a big shopping area such as the Trafford Centre, policing and security for shoppers, particularly in the run-up to Christmas, is a critical issue, and my hon. Friend is right to raise it today.

As I said, £700 million has been lost because of customer theft alone, and that represents a 31% rise. Some £163 million has been lost via fraud and £15 million via robbery. That is the very hard end of retail crime whereby people walk into shops with shotguns and knives and engage in physical violence—attack shop staff—but also threaten and take valuable resource from shopping. A further £3.4 million has been lost via criminal damage, which can involve people vandalising shops both in the evenings and during the daytime. That is a staggering amount of resource.

The Association of Convenience Stores, which represents 22,000 small shops, estimates that there is a £246 million cost to its sector from retail crime. That is £5,300 per store. Interestingly, there is in effect a 7p crime tax on the cost of an average shop in a convenience store. The cost is being passed on to the consumer—the customer.

My purpose today is to look at three issues. The first is progress on the consultation that we secured from the Home Office earlier this year to look at shop theft generally and at serious crime. Self-evidently, we are in an election period, but, if re-elected, as a Back Bencher I will continue to raise this issue, whoever is in government after 12 December, because it is important.

Let me start with the very important point that my hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds) mentioned—attacks on shop staff. Today and every day, 115 retail staff will be attacked in their workplace while protecting the shopping offer on their retail premises, upholding the legislation that we in this House have passed—on solvents, knives, alcohol and tobacco—and preventing shoplifting in their stores. As my hon. Friend suggested, that is a traumatic event for members of staff. It puts pressure on their mental and physical health. It is not acceptable that 115 colleagues are attacked each day, particularly given that knives, for example, are increasingly a significant weapon on the streets. The industry itself is doing all it can to protect its staff in their workplaces by spending about £1 billion on crime prevention measures, but we are still in a position whereby we need to look at what measures we can put in place to support the staff who are upholding the legislation that we have passed in this House.

[John Howell (Henley) (Con)]

The right hon. Gentleman talks about crime prevention measures. Does he not see that there is a difference between the large shops—the Sainsbury’s and so on of this world—and the smaller shops, the small businesses, which have great difficulty in coping with the costs of retail crime? Do we not need a differentiated approach for the two?

[David Hanson]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. Everybody who runs a shop wants their staff to be protected. Large multinational retailers such as Tesco, the Co-op, Sainsbury’s and Asda are caring for their staff, but everybody who runs a shop, be it a corner shop, a one-person shop, or another kind of small shop, wants their staff to be protected at work. That is particularly important when those staff are upholding the legislation that we have passed. When they are threatened by people who want to buy alcohol late at night or early in the morning, when they are threatened for refusing cigarette, solvent or knife sales and when they are threatened for taking action to try to stop shoplifters, it is imperative that we, as the society as a whole, look at what measures we can put in place to help support them.

The Co-op Group recently produced a report entitled “‘It’s not part of the job’: Violence and verbal abuse towards shop workers”. It shows clearly that violence against shop staff has long-term consequences for them and their communities. I know the Minister will know that this is a key issue, but it is one that we need to raise, recognise, and highlight, and we need to give a commitment to those staff on the ground to ensure that they are protected as a whole.

USDAW, which, like my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green), I am proud to be a member of—I declare my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests—runs annually the Freedom from Fear campaign, and in the run-up to Christmas it will again run the Respect for Shopworkers campaign. Of the 6,725 shop workers surveyed by USDAW in the past year, 64% faced verbal abuse at work, 40% were threatened by a customer, and 280, on average, were assaulted every day. That is not acceptable.

I pay tribute to the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, the hon. Member for Louth and Horncastle (Victoria Atkins), who previously dealt with this issue. We raised it during proceedings on the Offensive Weapons Act 2019. We tabled amendments and called for action in the form of a review of attacks on shop staff. The then Minister agreed to that review during a roundtable meeting with the Co-op, USDAW and other trade unions, the British Retail Consortium, the Association of Convenience Stores and the National Federation of Retail Newsagents. That review has been undertaken; it has taken evidence. There have been an awful lot of consultation responses. The previous Minister promised to respond to that evidence in the course of November. It is now November, so I wanted to put that on the record and get some feedback from the current Minister as to where we are with that action. We are in a politically divisive time, but I hope the Minister and his team see this as an important issue on which we can have cross-party co-operation. If he can tell us what he intends to do, if the Government are re-elected, that would be welcome. I know what I would like to do if Labour is elected as the next Government—we would take action—but it is important that we discuss these issues today.

[Kate Green]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it would be helpful to understand, should the Minister’s party be returned to government, what its view is on the use of facial recognition technology, which has been tried in the Trafford Centre, but is controversial? It has the potential to address crime, but we need to know what protections would be in place for personal privacy.

[David Hanson]

My hon. Friend has put an important issue on the table for the Minister to respond to.

In June, 50 senior retail figures, chief executives of the UK’s most recognisable retailers, the general secretary of USDAW, the chief executive of the Charity Retail Association and the chief executive of the British Retail Consortium all signed a letter calling for legislation in response to the Government consultation. Can we hear about the consultation and the potential legislation, and about what the Government intend to do, so that we can make a judgment about that? Whoever wins this election—that is for the British people—we need to know what measures are in place to take this issue forward.

I met with the Charity Retail Association—not just retail shops as a whole—which wrote to me on 5 June:

“We look forward to joining your list of…organisations in your fight for better protection for shop workers from violence or abuse.”

I wrote to the Minister earlier this year on the consultation that he is now considering. He responded on 3 September:

“Early analysis suggests that, as you highlight in your letter, the vast majority of respondents believe that violence and abuse toward shop staff has increased in recent years and that many respondents are unaware of the measures and tools available to tackle it and provide support for victims.”

My challenge to the Minister is this. Given that those respondents believe violence and abuse has gone up, and they want to see action from the Government, what will the Government do?

[Ruth George (High Peak) (Lab)]

I thank my right hon. Friend for securing such an excellent debate. Having worked for USDAW for nearly 20 years, I have spoken to thousands of shop workers who have suffered abuse. They often felt that their employer was not doing enough to be on the side of their staff who were facing abuse. That has happened over decades. Does he agree that the Government should take a lead on this and make it clear that it is never right to abuse or threaten staff on the frontline?

[David Hanson]

I absolutely agree, and I pay tribute to my hon. Friend’s efforts in this area. It is right that the Government should do that. I am looking to the Minister to show political leadership on this. For example, 98% of the current police and crime commissioners’ policing plans make no reference to shop theft, 63% make no reference to business crime, 72% make no reference to prolific offending and 79% make no reference to addiction, drug treatment or drug recovery, which are key to preventing shop theft. What pressure will the Minister put on police and crime commissioners for their actions?

The Minister will probably have received a letter today, dated 1 November, from James Lowman, chief executive of the Association of Convenience Stores, supporting the broad thrust of this debate and the consultation, and asking for legislation. The key point from Mr Lowman’s letter that I want to put on the record is this. Since the Government’s consultation began—back through the autumn, summer and spring, to when it was launched—200,000 assaults have taken place on people working in the retail and wholesale sector, in their place of work, because of the issues that we have mentioned around shoplifting and shop theft, and the lack of prevention of those activities.

Mr Lowman makes the valid point that his organisation represents 33,500 shops, including the Co-op, BP petrol stations, Spar, Nisa and Londis—a whole range of shops. They are united in their wish for a Government to take action on this issue and introduce legislation on shop theft and attacks on shop staff. I hope the Minister will give some indication on that in due course.

I also want to raise the issue of shoplifting as a whole. In the Anti-Social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014, the definition of shop theft was revisited. At the time, I was the shadow Police Minister. I objected to that change and we pressed the matter to a Division. “Stolen goods from shops” was defined as goods worth £200 or less, which meant that such cases would therefore not necessarily go to court. That has had a dramatic impact on shop theft. Someone could walk into a supermarket today and steal £199-worth of goods and potentially not face court, but instead face an out-of-court disposal. I happen to think that it is important that people go to court and face the consequences of their crime. We need to review the threshold.

I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris) and her colleagues will be in the Minister’s position shortly. After this election, whoever the Minister is, they should review the £200 limit on shoplifting. It is causing, potentially, increased shoplifting, because people know there are few consequences to face, and the police do not follow up on that type of activity, because of their stretched resources—which is something we might come to.

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend, who has done so much in this area. I agree that reducing shoplifting to the status of a parking offence has sent entirely the wrong signal. Does he agree that one of the perverse effects has been on the insurance industry? The police will say, “You have insurance.” If a small retailer makes a claim, its insurance goes up and the customer pays more. The shoplifter is the one person getting away with it, but everyone else is paying for the crime.

[David Hanson]

That is another knock-on consequence of retail crime and emphasises the point I want to make to the Minister. This is not an inconsequential or victim-free crime. The victims of shop theft and shop retail crime are the staff on the frontline, who are upholding the law, the shop owners and businesses, who take a hit to their profits, the customers, who pay more, and the insurance companies and other businesses, as my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston mentioned, which face the consequences of those actions.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

I, too, congratulate my right hon. Friend on his brilliant work over the years to support shop workers and the way that he has tried to get the Government to change their approach to the law. The wider damage done by crimes against shop workers affects staff, businesses and, at a time when retail is struggling, communities. Does he agree that, for all those reasons, if this Government are re-elected, they must act? If the Labour party is elected to Government, we will take the action required.

[David Hanson]

I am not a Front Bencher. My Front-Bench days are over by choice. I did the Minister’s job at one point. We had 21,000 more police officers, at that stage, who helped to protect victims from crime. I cannot speak for a future Labour Government, but I know that my hon. Friends the Members for Swansea East and for Sheffield, Heeley (Louise Haigh) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) will put in place measures to improve policing and legislation to protect shop staff, and to reduce retail crime, which impacts badly across our community and remains a hidden crime.

I have mentioned the policing plan and the policing response. I make no criticism of the police for being unable to respond at the same level as in the past, because when there are 21,000 fewer police officers than there were 10 years ago, that puts pressure on the police. The Government have said they will introduce 20,000 new police officers. I would like to know from the Minister how many police officers have been recruited since that pledge was made. What is his plan for when those 20,000 will be recruited? Why is he still putting forward proposals to have fewer police officers than when I held his job 10 years ago? What priority will he put on ensuring that police forces tackle retail crime, supported by legislation? These are key issues in any forthcoming discussion on this subject.

[Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab)]

I, too, commend my right hon. Friend for the immense amount of work he has done over the years on this topic. Does he agree that policing is particularly relevant in rural areas, where we are seeing a massive loss in coverage by shops, particularly little independent shops? In my constituency of Warwick and Leamington, we have communities with a single shop—the one shop in the village—and they are the ones that are most vulnerable to retail crime.

[David Hanson]

They are, and as the hon. Member for Henley (John Howell) said earlier, the additional costs of CCTV, head cameras, recording equipment or protective measures such as shutters fall disproportionately on smaller shops. When I was doing the Minister’s job, we had a scheme to support small businesses to prevent shop theft and other types of theft. I would like to hear what he proposes to do, should he be re-elected, on those issues.

I want to see the response to the consultation, I want to see more police officers on the street, and I want to see help and support to raise awareness of the importance of tackling this crime. However, much shop theft is also driven by alcohol or drug abuse and mental health issues. There is a real challenge for the Minister and the Government—again, I compare and contrast previous Governments with the current Government—in supporting those who face difficult challenges and whose shoplifting and shop theft, and maybe even their consequential violence, is linked to a problem that is solvable and that can be dealt with by society as a whole.

I simply make the point that in 2014, for example, there were 8,734 drug treatment orders in the community, but in 2018 there were only 4,889. The number of drug treatment orders given to serial offenders has almost halved in the five years between 2014 and 2019, while alcohol treatment orders have gone down from 5,500 to 3,300. People who needed a criminal justice outcome to their criminal activity—a community-based solution of a drug or alcohol treatment order—have seen the number of those orders fall dramatically in that period. That might mean that more people are in prison, which certainly takes them off the streets but does not necessarily rehabilitate them. Nevertheless, it is important that the Minister looks at how we can increase drug and alcohol treatment orders and the use of mental health orders for people in the community who are undertaking shoplifting because their treatment for alcohol or drugs is not being provided to the extent that it was. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea East, the shadow Minister, will look at that.

Again, in my time as Police Minister—I am going back 10 years—we had a prevention strategy as well as a policing strategy. The strategy was about trying to deal with the alcohol and drug problems that were driving offences, in addition to liaising with police in the community who knew who the prolific and serial offenders were locally and taking action accordingly. It is quite possible to find someone who is involved in 10 shoplifting events a month. Reducing those 10 to one through a drug treatment order has a massive impact on the crimewave in a local community. The Minister needs to explain what the Government’s future plans are.

Finally, I want to touch on the issue of serious crime. We have talked about shoplifting, which is serious; we have talked about violence against staff, which is serious. Sadly, however, there has also been an upswing in armed robberies at petrol stations, post offices, shops and supermarkets. I believe that the National Crime Agency should be focusing on this issue, driving down armed robberies, breaking up gangs and working hard to identify perpetrators.

Although I do not have time to go into that issue in detail, I simply put to the Minister three final points. First, he needs to give us the Government’s response to the consultation. Shop staff, shop businesses and shop organisations are unanimous on the need for legislation and a Government response. He should now say what he is going to do, because I am sure that my hon. Friend the shadow Minister will say that Labour will act if we are in government. Secondly, the Minister needs to review the £200 shoplifting threshold—as will my hon. Friend, if she holds his post in future—because it is having a damaging effect on shoplifting as a whole. Thirdly, we need a review to look at the number and type of organised criminal gang attacks on shops, because they are rising, causing fear among staff and damaging our communities as a whole.

This is an important issue. Today is the last day of our parliamentary Session, but I wanted to raise this issue because it matters to the people who work in shops, to the businesses that run those shops and to the consumers who spend their money in those shops. And it should matter to the Minister, as it matters to me and my hon. Friend, the shadow Minister.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister for Crime, Policing and the Fire Service (Kit Malthouse)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Betts, albeit in a different forum from the last one we met in. I congratulate the right hon. Member for Delyn (David Hanson) on securing the debate about a matter that he has worked on for some time. He worked closely with my predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for Louth and Horncastle (Victoria Atkins), now the Minister for Safeguarding and Vulnerability, who took the matter seriously. I listened carefully to the contributions of all hon. Members and I will try to address some specific points that were raised.

As I hope hon. Members realise, the Government recognise the significant impact that retail crime has not only on businesses and those who work for them but on shoppers, consumers and the wider community, as we have heard from several hon. Members. That is why we co-chair the national retail crime steering group to bring together the Government, trade organisations and enforcement partners to ensure that the response to crimes affecting the retail sector is as robust as possible. We have seen the benefits that that group can achieve in its recent response to the issue of violence and abuse towards shop workers, which was overseen by my hon. Friend the Minister for Safeguarding and Vulnerability, but we know there is more to do.

The right hon. Member for Delyn raised the issue of violence and abuse toward shop staff. I pay tribute to his work on raising awareness of the issue. I am aware of his discussions with Home Office Ministers on the topic during the passage of the Offensive Weapons Act 2019 in the last parliamentary Session, to which he referred. Violence and abuse remains the biggest concern for retailers and we are determined to tackle it.

Every day, we ask shop workers to deal with whatever comes through their door, whether that involves enforcing an age restriction on certain products or confronting shoplifters. Like anyone else, shop workers have the right to feel safe at work without fear of violence or intimidation. That is why, on 5 April, we launched a call for evidence to inform our response—I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his submission. We sought information on four key areas: prevalence and data, prevention and support, enforcement and the criminal justice system, and best practice.

As was mentioned, the call for evidence closed recently. We received more than 800 responses, including many first-hand accounts from shop staff. Although Home Office officials have completed an initial analysis, we have not yet published our response. That will disappoint hon. Members who referred to it, but we want to ensure that the detailed responses received are subject to a thorough and accurate analysis. Given that Parliament is about to be dissolved, I will take the opportunity to share our initial findings with hon. Members and to reassure them that we are engaging with key organisations to consider the next steps.

An initial analysis of the responses shows a widespread belief that violence and abuse towards shop staff has increased in recent years. The most common reason given was in the context of challenging individuals committing shop theft. Many respondents felt that a lack of a suitable response from the police resulted in offenders not fearing repercussions. Many felt unsupported by their organisation’s policies and management when dealing with verbally abusive customers. A significant number of respondents stated that they felt that incidents were becoming more violent and that they had experienced threats from individuals with knives, needles or other sharp objects.

That is obviously unacceptable. Nobody should be subjected to such violent attacks, especially in the workplace, and I reassure hon. Members that we are keen to take action in those areas, and in some cases, we already are.

[David Hanson]

Before the Minister moves on, is it his gut instinct that, if he were returned, as opposed to my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris), he would legislate for a stronger legislative solution to the offence?

[Kit Malthouse]

I will come on to that. I am not wholly convinced that we are without the tools that we need to deal with the issue, but we might need to address whether we are using them correctly.

On serious violence, we published the serious violence strategy, which has a particular focus on early intervention, in April 2018, so there has been action in that area. We allocated £22 million to the early intervention youth fund and, in the long term, £200 million to the youth endowment fund to ensure that those most at risk are given the opportunity to turn away from violence and to lead more positive lives. We launched a public consultation on a new multi-agency public health approach to tackling serious violence, following which we announced that we would introduce a new legal duty on statutory agencies to plan and collaborate to prevent and reduce serious violence. We gave the police extra powers to tackle knife crime through the Offensive Weapons Act, including new knife crime prevention orders.

Those wider measures will help, but we recognise the importance of focusing our efforts on measures that are specifically targeted on tackling retail crime. This year, the Home Office provided £60,000 for a targeted communication campaign, led by the Association of Convenience Stores, to raise awareness of the existing legislation to protect shop workers. We published guidance on gov.uk about the use of the impact statement for business, which provides victims with the opportunity to tell the courts about the impact that a crime has had on their businesses. We also worked with the police to develop guidance for staff and retailers to use when reporting emergency and violent incidents.

The right hon. Member for Delyn and other hon. Members have asked the Government to consider introducing a new offence of attacks on shop staff, or to increase the severity of existing offences. I hope that he is aware from previous discussions that powers are already available to the police and the Crown Prosecution Service to deal with that type of offending and to provide protection to retail staff.

There are a number of assault offences and corresponding differences in maximum penalties. At the higher end of the scale, causing grievous bodily harm with intent and wounding with intent carry maximum penalties of life imprisonment. The sentencing guidelines on assault include an aggravating factor of

“offences committed against those working in the public sector or providing a service to the public”,

which should be taken into account by the courts when deciding what sentence to impose and may be applied to retail staff conducting their duties. In addition, the Sentencing Council is reviewing its guidelines on assault. A consultation on the revised guidelines is anticipated in 2020. I advise hon. Members to respond to that consultation with a specific focus on assaults on retail workers.

Let me turn to some of the specific points raised. Several hon. Members called for me to publish the review of the call for evidence as quickly as possible. The fact that we are going into an election will make that quite difficult, but I give my undertaking that, as soon as we come back, if I am in the job, we will try to get it out as quickly as possible. Obviously, the five-week election campaign gives officials a bit of an easier time, so they can digest the responses and get it out as soon as they can.

The hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) raised the issue of facial recognition technology. Obviously, we are supporting the police as they trial the use of new technology across the country. It has become clear that facial recognition technology has significant crime-fighting possibilities. A recent court case established that there is a sufficient legal framework for its use and operation in this country, but as its use is expanded, possibly by police forces, in the months and years to come, I have no doubt that it will have to come to the House for some sort of democratic examination at some point. Thus far, however, where it is being deployed, we are seeing significant benefits from it.

--- Later in debate ---

[David Hanson]

I am grateful to you, Mr Betts, for chairing this session, and to the Minister and my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris) for their responses. I will take one point from what the Minister said: if he is returned, he has agreed to review the £200 threshold on shop theft, which I know my hon. Friend will do, should she be returned to office.

This issue is extremely important and will not go away. It is about ensuring that staff who uphold our laws are protected by our laws; it is about ensuring that they live free from fear. I suspect that every retailer in the country in response to the consultation will have said that they want a separate offence and for assaulting a staff worker to be an aggravated offence. I hope that whoever forms the Government after this election will look at the consultation responses and bring forward measures. It is within our grasp now. The people who work in shops, the people who manage, run and own shops, and consumers have the same objective—to allow shop workers to be free from fear and to go about their business supported by the state, upholding the laws of the land; to ensure that members of the public who attack them face an aggravated offence; and to ensure a greater police presence on the streets if needs be, more neighbourhood policing and strong interventions to tackle some of the problems that drive people to undertake those shoplifting and attack offences in the first place.

This is an important issue. I am grateful that so many hon. Members have turned up on the last Tuesday of Parliament to put down a marker to whoever forms the next Government that this issue will not go away and will be dealt with by Parliament.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered prevention of retail crime.

Major Incident in Essex

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Monday 28th October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Priti Patel]

I thank my hon. Friend for his comments and, being a neighbouring Member of Parliament, I do know Harwich. He is right to point out that all port operators and border staff around the country will be looking at what has happened over the last week with shared horror. They will be taking the right action in their own day-to-day work on risk-based checks, but at this stage I want to give the House the assurance that we are giving Border Force all the support it needs and we are working collaboratively with port operators. I also thank my hon. Friend for his work with Essex police when he has raised concerns in respect of the port of Harwich and on how to deal with those issues.

[David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

The Home Secretary will know that three years ago the Chief Inspector of Borders and Immigration produced a report on the east coast ports that raised a number of concerns about their operation. Will she agree to look again at the recommendations of the Border Force inspector to see whether she can update the House on the implementation of those recommendations?

[Priti Patel]

I have gone through that report and seen the recommendations. I am currently reviewing aspects of them, but in particular how we can make them more relevant, because that was a report from 2016—although the findings were published in 2017—and things have clearly moved on since then. But of course there is another factor here: the extent of the organised international criminality, as well as many of the port security features that were raised in that report that also need to be looked at.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Monday 28th October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Priti Patel]

I would like to express my sympathies to the family. That is a dreadful tragedy, and I would of course be delighted to meet my hon. Friend and the family to hear much more about that case.

[David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

Is it still the Government’s aspiration for the UK to be a member of Europol?

[Brandon Lewis]

We have an ambitious programme of work for our future security arrangements. Other countries, such as the United States, have a relationship with Europol —in fact, I think the United States has the biggest attendance there at the moment. Europol is still an important part of our future as part of our future negotiations.

Major Incident in Essex

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Priti Patel]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his remarks. He speaks with great personal insight and experience, and he is right that the trauma following such an incident will be shattering for all those involved in the recovery and emergency services. It is an important point that, for anyone who works in a frontline service or an emergency service, the trauma and post-traumatic stress of being involved in such incidents, as well as in life-saving incidents, comes back later. We will therefore not only be investing but ensuring that we support those individuals who are doing so much work locally today.

[David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

This was an act of unconscionable criminality organised by gangs across Europe. Has the Home Secretary approached Europol? We are still a member of Europol, which has, at its heart, a three-year plan to tackle criminality and gangs through co-operation across Europe to track down the perpetrators of this type of crime.

[Priti Patel]

This is now a live murder investigation, so all agencies will be activated in sharing information and working together. As the right hon. Gentleman says, there is a degree of organised criminality and, whether we are inside or outside Europe, we will always stand firm against this and make sure that we collaborate with all our partners.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Hanson of Flint Excerpts

Monday 15th July 2019 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

As my right hon. Friend says, I will not comment on any sensitive intelligence matter, but he is right to be concerned about the rise in hostile state activity. There is ongoing activity across Government to ensure that our democracy is protected. We have taken many steps and co-ordinated them across Government and the relevant authorities. He will also be pleased to know that, now that the Counter-Terrorism and Border Security Act 2019 is on the statute book, it gives us many more powers to counter hostile state activity.

[David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

The Home Secretary will know that police numbers remain key to hostile state activity prevention. I have still not heard an answer to the question that my right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) posed—how many extra police officers are going to be recruited, and when, to tackle this important issue?

[Sajid Javid]

When it comes to hostile state activity, it is not that police numbers are unimportant, but actually, the key is intelligence and support for our intelligence services, especially for MI5 and the excellent work that it does.