Mesothelioma Lump Sum Payments (Conditions and Amounts) (Amendment) Regulations 2021

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Wednesday 10th February 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing these regulations and the noble Lords who have spoken.

It is great to see some of the faithful stalwarts of previous debates back again this year, albeit on Zoom rather than in the Room this time. My noble friend Lord McKenzie has a long commitment in this area. Once again, the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, rightly raised the incidence of silicosis and pneumoconiosis among slate quarrymen—something raised in previous years by my noble friend Lord Jones. It is strange to be debating this without the noble Lord, Lord Alton; I am not sure that it is strictly legal. Most years, we have him here, speaking up for the victims of these awful diseases and advocating powerfully for the work of the British Lung Foundation. However, the medium has in no way diminished the passion and power of noble Lords’ speeches, even if it has curtailed their length a little.

I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Blunkett for talking about the impact on miners; to the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, for talking about those who made railway boilers; and to the noble Lord, Lord McNally, for telling us about his sister, Betty. It is heartbreaking to think of her working away for ICI, making fireproof clothing and having no idea that those awful seeds being planted would lie dormant for decades, only to bloom so awfully. I hope that we will never reach a point where we talk about these matters without pausing to think of those whose lives were cut short by these awful diseases and those who lost spouses, parents or friends. I pay tribute to the trade unions, charities and all those who have campaigned for this compensation.

Obviously, we support these regulations and are glad to see that, once again, the compensation in both schemes is being raised in line with the CPI, by 0.5%. Is it definitely the intention that this will happen every year from now on?

One of the issues raised by my noble friends Lord McKenzie and Lady Whitaker is the lack of parity between the levels of compensation being offered to sufferers and their dependants. It would be helpful if the Minister could remind us of the Government’s rationale for this distinction. Also, as has been mentioned previously, what assessment have the Government made of the impact of that disparity on women, who are more often the dependants? What is the latest estimate of the cost of providing equal payments?

Last year, the issue of medical research and investment in it was raised much more than this. I wonder what is happening, given the pressure on charity funding in the pandemic. Does the Minister know what is happening to charitable funding that goes into research? In the past, contributions have been made by some insurers. Can the Minister tell us what she knows of how that funding may be going?

In last year’s debate on the uprating regulations, a number of noble Lords asked for information about funding and the data held on the prevalence of mesothelioma, and my noble friend Lord McKenzie asked about progress on employer liability tracing. The Minister agreed to write once she had gathered that information, but I have not been able to find such a letter among the deposited papers, and the House of Lords Library was not able to trace it either. Can the Minister confirm that she did write? If so, will she place a copy in the Library, and would she confirm that all such future letters will be deposited for the record?

Finally, as my noble friend Lord McKenzie said so clearly, these dust-related diseases are a reflection of our industrial past and the carelessness with which too many employers approached health and safety. If we are to avoid future scandals, we need a strong Health and Safety Executive—a point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Janke. But the HSE’s funding has been cut significantly since this Government came to power, and recent increases to fund the extra work caused by Brexit have not begun to make up for that. Can the Minister tell us how confident she is that the HSE is sufficiently well resourced both to manage the risks to employees in the current pandemic and to be alert to the health risks of the future, so that nobody else will be put through the next generation’s equivalent of the horrors we have been talking about today? I look forward to her reply.

Covid-19: Youth Unemployment

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

My noble friend raises a number of relevant points. As I have said, we are working with local authorities and businesses. There is absolute mileage in all my noble friend says about things being done locally, because people know one another best in their local community. My strapline for all that we are doing is “To be known nationally but felt locally”.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab) [V]]

[Inaudible]—about the scale of the crisis. The Government want 250,000 placements but, as the right reverend Prelate pointed out, not even 2,000 young people are in place and, by November, nearly 600,000 young people were claiming unemployment benefits. So when will 250,000 young people actually be in jobs and what are the Government doing to help the other 350,000 young people who cannot access Kickstart?

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

Let me be clear again that we are working at pace with employers to get the vacancies we need in Kickstart. We have started people, and that take-up will accelerate in the coming days. There is no lessening of effort on that. In terms of our offer, we have the youth unemployment programme; we have youth hubs—which are helping people; and we have our youth employability coaches as well as work coaches in jobcentres. With all those efforts combined we will do as much as we can to get as many as possible of the young people referred to by the noble Baroness back into work.

Pension Schemes Bill [HL]

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments & Ping Pong (Hansard) & Ping Pong (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 19th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I, too, am grateful to the Minister for explaining why the Government asked the Commons to reject the amendments passed in this House. We have come a long way since the Bill had its First Reading in this House on 7 January—more than a year ago, although it seems more like a lifetime. The Bill now makes some important changes, creates CDC schemes, legislates for the pensions dashboard and strengthens the regulatory environment on pensions.

During the Bill’s passage through this House, the Government have made some welcome concessions. For example, we ran an amendment to require a public dashboard from the outset. The Government brought forward amendments requiring that, and I am grateful for the confirmation that the Minister has given today. We ran amendments saying that the FCA should regulate the provision of dashboard services, and the Minister has confirmed that that will happen. We ran an amendment to say that using the dashboard to see your own data must be free, and the Minister has confirmed that it will remain free.

The Bill initially made no reference to climate change, but my noble friend Lady Jones of Whitchurch, the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, and Members from across the House worked together to persuade the Government to amend the Bill to require trustees and managers to take the Paris Agreement and domestic climate change targets into account in their overall governance and their disclosure of climate change risks and opportunities. This is the first time that the words “climate change” have featured in domestic pensions legislation.

This is a better Bill than it was when it started, and I am grateful to all noble Lords who have worked so hard on it, especially my noble friend Lady Drake and Dan Harris in our Opposition Whips team. I am also grateful to the Minister for engaging with our concerns and to the Bill team and all the officials who have engaged with us.

That said, the Government have rejected the amendments which this House voted for. On CDC schemes, I hope they will review the intergenerational impact of any schemes as they are developed and will keep an eye on that. I am particularly disappointed that our amendments on the pensions dashboard system were rejected. They would have put in place two essential safeguards: that the MaPS public dashboard should be in operation for a year and that the Secretary of State should lay a report before Parliament on its operation and effectiveness before commercial dashboards enter the market, and that the delegated powers in the Bill could not be used to authorise commercial dashboards to engage in transactions.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, I remain deeply concerned about the risks to consumers. Those amendments were especially important given the sheer breadth of the delegated powers the Bill grants and how little we know at the moment about how the dashboards will work. We still do not know how many dashboards there will be, who will run them, what information they will have, how it will be displayed or how consumers will respond. We do not know where liability will lie for each link in the chain or how consumers will be compensated if they lose out. We do not know what the charging model will be or how data security, identity verification or third-party access will be managed.

Given all those things that we do not know, I have sought to persuade the Government to come to Parliament to allow us to debate the proposals they make before the regulations are published. I regret that I have not succeeded in that. Given that this remains a very high-risk programme and that parliamentary scrutiny would surely be an advantage not an impediment, I hope that in her reply the Minister can give us some assurance of our continued involvement in debate on this process. I look forward to hearing her reply.

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

First, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Janke and Lady Sherlock, for their contributions. I think it is right to say that we have listened, we have engaged and we have valued and appreciated all noble Lords’ contributions, and I assure noble Lords that that will continue.

I reassure the House that the Government are fully committed to continue transparency and engagement through the development, delivery and operation of pensions dashboards. We greatly value the insight and input from colleagues from across the House in shaping, testing and ensuring the proposals and want that to continue throughout the more detailed stages of development. The pension dashboards programme is committed to publishing six-monthly progress updates, the most recent of which, in October 2020, outlined the work undertaken to define the data standards and the work towards finalising the requirements for the digital architecture and the identity service. It also set out an indicative plan for delivery.

Future updates, in advance of the launch of dashboards, will provide greater detail, engagement opportunity and assurance on key areas of specific interest. These will include the digital architecture and identity service; user consents and permissions, including delegated or third-party access; the consumer protection regime, including the liability model; and further work on how data will be presented to consumers, based on a growing body of user research and a greater understanding of user needs.

I facilitated a meeting between noble Lords and the pensions dashboards programme team just before Christmas. As promised at that meeting, I will ensure that these regular meetings continue. They will provide your Lordships with the opportunity to have meaningful discussions directly with the programme team at the publication of each progress update report and a chance to scrutinise this work at an early stage of development. I will ensure that copies of these reports are placed in the House Library on their publication.

I recognise the concerns that many have expressed about the broad nature of the delegated powers within this area of the Bill. There is a statutory duty on the Secretary of State to consult before making regulations for pensions dashboards. Consultation will cover proposals across the range of areas which are critical to the safe, secure and effective delivery of dashboards, and give all those interested the opportunity to influence the detail before the regulations are laid in draft in this House under the affirmative procedure.

I know that some of your Lordships have asked whether we can go even further, requiring the Government to lay a report before Parliament for debate in advance of draft regulations being laid. I do not believe this to be the right way forward, as the consultation on the Government’s proposals for regulations will already have taken place.

I have listened further to the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, and, although we have not always been in agreement, we are together on Peers having ongoing future involvement, and we are prepared to engage, engage and engage. Therefore, in addition to updating the House in the usual manner, I am prepared to commit to the Government tabling Written Ministerial Statements during the consultation phases, prior to the debate on the proposed dashboard regulations.

I reassure the noble Baroness that I will continue to work with her collaboratively in the way we have done throughout the Bill’s progress. On the matter of facilitating further debate on the issue, I am sure that the Chief Whip has heard our debate today, and, when the Written Ministerial Statements are laid, I will draw them to his attention for him to consider further discussion in the usual channels.

Some concerns have been expressed about governance of the dashboard service going forward. The Money and Pensions Service has responsibility for delivery of the dashboard architecture and ongoing oversight and control, and it is clear that our focus for the foreseeable future must be on the development and implementation of the service. Meeting the demands of the scale and complexity of this challenge comes first. Reaching a live and steady state of operation will take a number of years, as set out in the pensions dashboards programme activity plan. As such, I confirm that the Government have no plan to move ownership of dashboards architecture away from the Money and Pensions Service.

My department has clear governance arrangements in place to ensure the delivery of dashboards. As well as the regular published updates that I mentioned earlier, there is an existing legislative requirement, in the Financial Guidance and Claims Act 2018, for MaPS to report to the Secretary of State annually on the exercise of its functions, which includes its responsibilities for pensions dashboards. This report is laid before Parliament.

Chris Curry, the senior responsible officer for the pensions dashboard programme, and Sir Hector Sants, chair of the Money and Pensions Service, regularly report progress to Ministers. The department also undertakes formal quarterly accountability reviews with the Money and Pensions Service. We recognise the importance of effective evaluation, including monitoring of consumer behaviours and outcomes. My department is responsible for overall evaluation of the policy and is working with the pensions dashboards programme and regulators to develop a comprehensive evaluation plan.

Research will also be undertaken with providers and users alike throughout the project life cycle. This will include user testing to understand likely reactions and behaviours, and research to understand the impact that dashboards will have on the market. My department is developing a joint set of critical success factors to complement delivery and measure the success of policy objectives. These are relevant to all stages of the programme and will give insights on, among other things, usage of the service, delivery and compliance. Review of the critical success factors will also play a part in evaluation and service developments.

I finish by repeating the commitment that I made in my opening remarks. We will not allow any dashboard to which schemes are required to supply data to be launched before that of the Money and Pensions Service. On the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, about a review of intergenerational impact and fairness, we will of course review how CD schemes operate and will monitor how different groups are treated.

I hope that my comments reassure noble Lords that the Government are acting diligently and responsibly in the delivery of dashboards.

--- Later in debate ---

I reserve my right to call a vote on my amendment, but I am optimistic that it will not come to that. I beg to move.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her introduction and the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, for her contribution. I hope that the debates in both Houses have caused the Government to reflect further on whether their DB funding requirements are fit for purpose. I acknowledge the work done by the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, and other Members in this regard.

I wish that the Government had supported the Labour amendment to the Bill in the other place. The essence of it is captured in my Amendment 4D here. It is regrettable that so many DB pension schemes outside the public sector are closed to new members and to future accrual of benefits for existing members. It is also important to recognise that there are DB schemes which remain meaningfully open to new members, which are sustainable, and which have strong employer covenants.

I support the Pensions Regulator in wanting to ensure that DB schemes are well run and properly funded, thereby increasing the likelihood that members will receive their accrued benefits in full when they become due. We have seen enough examples of poor corporate behaviour and the decline or collapse of companies providing the covenant to DB schemes to know the consequences of having a weak funding regime.

Today’s debate does not challenge this principle. It is concerned with how the principle is applied and specifically whether the approach to scheme funding by the Government and the regulator sufficiently recognises the difference between the funding regime for a sustainable, meaningfully open DB scheme and that for an increasingly mature and closed DB scheme. There is real concern that, unless the difference is recognised, the Pensions Regulator and any regulations from the Secretary of State could perversely pose a threat to the continuation of open, relatively immature, sustainable schemes. This would thereby deny the opportunity for millions of workers to benefit from a DB pension. Many sections of the Railway Pensions Scheme are an example of such an open DB scheme.

A closed DB scheme will, of course, see contributions decline and the remaining scheme members progressively age. As more and more of the assets will be needed to pay the pensions, they will need to be lower risk and provide liquidity to ensure that members receive their benefits when they become due. A sustainable, meaningfully open scheme has an ongoing flow of new contributions, including from future members. These can be invested for the long term, providing higher returns. Their investment profile does not need to be as risk-averse as that required for a declining DB scheme. If sustainable, open DB schemes are unnecessarily pushed into the same investment and derisking strategies required for declining closed schemes, there is the risk that the regulator will push up the ongoing contributions of members and employers to such a level that, perversely, they encourage open, sustainable DB schemes to close. This cannot be right. It does not benefit employees, employers or the economy.

My amendment aims to ensure that regulations on DB scheme funding recognise the characteristics of sustainable open schemes, rather than setting a one size fits all policy for both closed and open DB schemes. It specifies that

“the objectives of the Secretary of State must include supporting the ability of the trustees of a relevant scheme to decide the funding and investment strategy for the scheme taking into account the current and future maturity and liquidity of the relevant scheme consistent with the trustees’ duty to invest assets in the best interests of members and beneficiaries.”

I know that the Pensions Regulator has issued an interim response to its first DB funding code consultation. It is apparent from some of the comments, including those of the PLSA, that there are misunderstandings or lack of clarity about the position of open schemes. Assurances are being sought from some in the pensions industry and elsewhere that the DB funding regime will remain scheme-specific. The noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, referred to this. Any bespoke approach under the new funding proposals should build on that foundation. The DB funding regime should continue to apply flexibly to take account of individual scheme circumstances.

I will listen carefully to the Minister’s answers to my questions and to those detailed by the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles. Given the concerns expressed in both Houses, it will be important to hear some answers to these questions and I do hope to hear the Minister tell us whether the Government plan to consult with open and immature schemes before publishing the draft regulations, including reflecting on the impact on members and sponsors of schemes that are meaningfully open. I hope the Minister can respond today in a way that addresses the concerns raised and indicates a way forward. I too have valued the conversations of which I have been a part. I have no wish to press my amendment to a Division, although I will listen carefully to what she has to say before making a final decision. I look forward to her reply.

--- Later in debate ---

Tabled by

[Baroness Sherlock]

At end insert “, and do propose Amendment 4D in lieu of the words so left out of the Bill—

4D: Schedule 10, page 185, line 29, at end insert—
“221C Guiding objectives
(1) In exercising any powers to make regulations or otherwise to prescribe any matter of principle under this Part, the objectives of the Secretary of State must include supporting the ability of the trustees of a relevant scheme to decide the funding and investment strategy for the scheme taking into account the current and future maturity and liquidity of the relevant scheme consistent with the trustees’ duty to invest assets in the best interests of members and beneficiaries.
(2) In subsection (1), “relevant scheme” means an occupational pension scheme that is not near significant maturity and is open to new members and is reasonably expected to remain so, either indefinitely or for a significant period of time.””

Extreme Poverty

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Tuesday 15th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, we all want to help people into work, but this report shows people are destitute now. It highlights the fragility of our social security system, pointing out that half of destitute households were getting universal credit or had applied for it. It says that needing to repay advances was leaving them with little to live on, and it warns that Britain is increasingly reliant on food banks as a core welfare response to destitution. This is scandalous—does the Minister agree with me? If so, what are the Government going to do about it now?

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

I certainly acknowledge the issues that people are facing; I do not shy away from that at all. But, at the risk of repeating myself, the Government are right now putting over £100 million extra into working-age welfare, we have the Covid winter support fund, we have the plan for jobs and the pandemic policies are under continual review. There are free school meals and money for food charities. I am not sure I agree with the noble Baroness’s implication that we are not doing enough.

Chemicals (Health and Safety) and Genetically Modified Organisms (Contained Use) (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Wednesday 9th December 2020 Grand Committee

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her explanation of these regulations and all noble Lords who have spoken for their contributions. I too am grateful for the briefing that we received from the officials, which transformed these rather complicated regulations into something that I could at least wrestle with in a fairly basic manner.

If I have understood them correctly, I think the Government’s intention is that, from the end of the transition period, the existing EU regimes at that point in time will be saved into national law through the provisions of the withdrawal Act, and that the primary point of these regulations is to correct deficiencies arising from Brexit beyond what was provided for in the 2019 regulations. Then, of course, there is the issue of Northern Ireland, where the protocol means that some areas of law in Northern Ireland will remain aligned with the EU.

I have questions about two areas on which I would like to get more information. First, on the question of Northern Ireland, the Minister mentioned unfettered access. Paragraph 17(1) of the Command Paper The UK’s Approach to the Northern Ireland Protocol says, about trade going from Northern Ireland to the rest of the UK, that

“this should take place as it does now. There should be no additional process or paperwork and there will be no restrictions on Northern Ireland goods arriving in the rest of the UK—that is, there will be unfettered access, as provided for by the Protocol.”

The thing is that, on the face of it, these regulations stop totally unfettered access for some goods, or at least they place a barrier to be overcome before a product can be marketed from Northern Ireland into GB. I am not saying that is a bad thing, just that it is different.

For instance, the regulations provide that for the BPR, where a Northern Ireland-based business has obtained an authorisation or permit for a biocidal product and wants to market that product in GB, the HSE will treat the product as authorised in the whole of the UK but only as long as certain conditions are met, including that the active substance is on the GB approved list and that the business notifies the HSE by submitting the same information that was submitted in support of the original authorisation. Once that authorisation has been submitted, the product can be sold in GB after 90 days, provided that the HSE does not raise any objections. If the HSE has any concerns about its safety or efficacy, it can request further information—another 90-day delay.

The HSE also has a safety valve. A product can be prohibited, or its sale or use restricted, if that can be justified on certain grounds, including environmental, the protection of health or life, the protection of vulnerable groups or animals or plants, and various other things, including artistic, historic or archaeological values.

I want to understand what is happening here. Is the HSE conducting an independent assessment of the safety and efficacy of a product, or is it simply checking that the product has met the regulatory requirements of the EU and then noting the information? If it is the former, then it is obviously possible that the HSE will reach a different view from that of the EU regulators. Indeed, because there is no dynamic alignment with EU standards after transition, it is entirely possible that our regimes will diverge over time. If so, how does that sit with the statement in the Command Paper that there will be no restrictions on Northern Ireland goods being marketed into the rest of the UK?

The second area I want to explore, as did most other noble Lords, is the role of the HSE in relation to these provisions and indeed Brexit. That was raised by the noble Baronesses, Lady Altmann and Lady Bennett, and other noble Lords. Essentially, the organisation is having to establish a new, independent regulatory regime for GB and have a regime aligned with the EU for Northern Ireland, all the while dealing with the huge challenge of helping to make workplaces Covid-secure during the pandemic, and in the context of having had its budget pretty much halved over the last decade.

I will ask the Minister some questions. First, on staffing, the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, mentioned a commitment to recruit 300 staff, I think to cover the REACH business, of which only 50 had been hired. We were told in briefing that the HSE had plans to recruit 100 more staff by the end of January and up to 130 by the end of the financial year. Can the Minister clarify whether these are two separate figures? Is the figure I mentioned of 100 and 130 just for the DWP-funded activity? If so, can she tell us how many of those staff have been recruited?

Secondly, how much additional money has the HSE been given specifically to cope with its new role in a post-Brexit world, separate from extra Covid funding, and what is that as a percentage of its budget? It is quite clear that the Committee wants to hear a categorical assurance from the Minister that Ministers have satisfied themselves that the resources available to the HSE are adequate to enable it to deal not just with Covid, but with its new regulatory and inspection regime. On a related point to that made by the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, I would like to know specifically on the BPR authorisations what assessment has been made as to the capacity of the HSE to make all the necessary evaluations within 90 days of receiving the submissions specified in the regulations.

I have asked enough questions and other noble Lords have asked good ones too. I look forward to the Minister’s reply.

Arcadia Pension Fund

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Tuesday 8th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

I understand the noble Lord’s point and the spirit in which he makes it, but it would be inappropriate for Ministers to comment at this stage on this individual case. It is too early to know the position of the pension scheme—whether there is a deficit or how big it is—and, indeed, whether anybody has behaved inappropriately. We need to let the Pension Protection Fund and the Pensions Regulator do their job. If there is any cause for concern, they have a range of powers which they will use.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, many Arcadia pension scheme members are facing possible job loss and uncertainty, which are the perfect conditions for scammers to exploit anxious people who are looking to access their pension savings. The experience of too many British Steel workers stands as a warning. Once savings are transferred out of the pension scheme, there is no way back and access to the PPF is gone. What active steps will the Government take to apply the lessons of the Rookes review to ensure that Arcadia scheme members are not exposed to financial advisers who may provide poor advice, nor persuaded to put their savings in the hands of fraudsters?

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

As always, the noble Baroness raises an important point for people who are in difficult positions. Since January 2018, following its work on the British Steel pension scheme, the Financial Conduct Authority has been working closely with the Pensions Regulator and the Money and Pensions Service to ensure that they monitor pension transfer activity in defined benefit pension schemes that may be subject to increased transfer activity. The three organisations have increased the frequency of their meetings during Covid-19 to consider schemes at risk of higher transfer activity.

Social Security Co-ordination (Revocation of Retained Direct EU Legislation and Related Amendments) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Tuesday 8th December 2020 Grand Committee

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her explanation of these regulations. I am also grateful to her for giving me access to her officials, who have been a source of very helpful briefing throughout this process.

Ministers have explained previously that their intention was to revoke the provisions of the social security co-ordination regulations at the end of the transition period, the idea being to clear the decks for the implementation of the contents of a deal with the EU and/or with the EEA and Switzerland. I have repeatedly asked the Minister over the year to spell out what will happen to social security co-ordination after the transition period for those outside the scope of the withdrawal agreement.

Ministers have consistently declined to answer questions on the grounds that the Government aim to get a deal, and that if we can wait until then we will be told everything. We are now here, three weeks before the end of the transition period, debating regulations that terminate the current co-ordination provisions, and we still do not know what is to replace them because we still do not know if there will be a deal.

Can the Minister tell the Committee how, if there is a deal, its provisions will be enacted in law? Specifically, how will Parliament get to examine the content and implications of the deal? If there is no deal, anyone moving between the UK and the EU, including the EEA and Switzerland, will be in the same position as somebody currently moving between here any other country in the world, except of course that we have agreements with many other countries, and far more people move between the UK and the EU and the EEA than anywhere else. According to the House of Commons Library, last year there were some 3.7 million EU nationals living in the UK and the best part of a million UK nationals living elsewhere in the EU, excluding Ireland.

If we end up without a deal, what will the position be? It is good to have it clarified that the regulations save provisions relating to the aggregation and uprating of the state pension. So if there is no deal in place by the end of the transition period, there will at least be continued state pension aggregation and uprating in the EU and EEA states and Switzerland up to the end of the next financial year and potentially for a wee bit longer, if necessary, for ongoing negotiations.

The intention is presumably that, in the absence of an EU-wide agreement, the UK would seek to put in place reciprocal arrangements with individual European states instead. Just for the record, can the Minister confirm that in the absence of a deal with the EU, this means that if a British pensioner moves to France in January she will find that her state pension is uprated in April as though she had never left the UK? Will there be any reimbursement of healthcare charges for her, or indeed for anybody getting long-term exportable benefits? Will there be any healthcare coverage for someone making a short stay in an EU state from the UK after the transition period? What will happen to those affected by Covid, such as students who started their courses virtually, intending to move physically next term? What will be the impact on their entitlements?

The fact that nothing else is safe will leave people moving between the UK and the EU very exposed. The obvious exception is Ireland, with which we now have an agreement, and we are told that there is an intention to have a deal with Gibraltar. These regulations save the intended SSC regulations on social security between the Governments of the UK and Gibraltar. Can the Minister confirm—I apologise if she did this in her opening remarks—whether the extent of those savings is just on uprating and aggregation, like a state pension, as it is with the EU as whole, or whether it is broader for Gibraltar?

The other outstanding areas relate to things such as double payment or aggregation of national insurance contributions. I understand that, at the moment, if there is no deal, the rules that apply to any other country in the world that does not have a reciprocal agreement with the UK will also apply to those moving for work between the UK and the EU or EFTA or Switzerland. I presume they will pay NICs for 52 weeks and then be subject to the local regimes. Could the Minister confirm for the record that someone in that position would therefore end up being potentially liable to paying contributions in both countries, while being insured in the UK only?

Finally, the Explanatory Memorandum says that no impact assessment has been prepared for this instrument, but that, when negotiations are concluded,

“DWP intend to publish … an update to the social security co-ordination impact assessment published during the passage of the … Act.”

Can I ask the Minister why no impact assessment was prepared? How soon after negotiations are concluded will DWP update the impact assessment published during the passage of the Act? If there is a deal, can the Minister assure the Committee that we will see an impact assessment for any measures brought forward to implement the deal and an updated impact assessment for these measures before the provisions of any deal are implemented?

This entire process is highly unsatisfactory. We are three weeks from the end of the transition period and Parliament is being asked to approve regulations that remove the transitional provisions without any clarity as to what will replace them. That leaves uncertainty for anyone moving between the EU and the UK who is outside the scope of the withdrawal agreement. It leaves us, as parliamentarians, with no knowledge as to when, how or even if Parliament will get to scrutinise and debate what is coming next. I deeply regret that Parliament has been put in this position, but I look forward to hearing any further clarification the Minister is able to give.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

My Lords, I apologise to the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford. We have been unable to connect with her because of various technical reasons, for which I apologise. I return to the noble Baroness, Lady Janke. I hope we can now speak with her.

Universal Credit

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Tuesday 1st December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

At the risk of repeating myself, I say that we are waiting for the Chancellor to assess the situation before making a decision about how best to support low-income families. As for what we are doing for children, there are free school meal vouchers and we are providing £16 million for food charities to get food to those who are struggling and 4.5 million food boxes for vulnerable people. We are expanding free school meals, establishing a new £1 billion fund to create more high-quality, affordable childcare and putting £35 million into the national school breakfast programme. We are not taking our foot off the accelerator on any support we give.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I watched the BBC news report from Burnley last night and I am not ashamed to say that I cried through it. It showed children so hungry that they were ripping open bags of donated food before they hit the floor. There was a vicar sobbing at the level of need around him. People are desperate, so I ask the Minister: has the DWP modelled the impact of cutting £1,000 from the incomes of 6 million families in the middle of a pandemic and a recession, when unemployment is still rising? Will she join me in meeting people who are providing food on the front line to poor communities, so that we can both hear what they really need from their Government?

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

First, I affirm that, as always, I am very happy to meet people, as the noble Baroness suggested. The Chancellor has said that, once we have a better understanding of the impact of the £20 uplift on the social and economic situation, he will make his assessment and decide what to do.

Social Security (Up-rating of Benefits) Bill

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

3rd reading & Report stage & 3rd reading (Hansard) & 3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & Report stage (Hansard) & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 17th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Stedman-Scott) (Con)]

My Lords, in moving this Motion, I would like to confirm how pleased I am to have introduced the Social Security (Up-rating of Benefits) Bill into this House. I thank all noble Lords for their positive engagement and the feedback that they have provided thus far. I thank in particular the noble Lords, Lord Addington, Lord Randall and Lord Shipley¸ and the noble Baronesses, Lady Sherlock and Lady Janke, for their constructive contributions. I also thank the officials on the Bill team for their tireless work in helping all of us see the Bill proceed in a proper manner and to have the information needed.

The Bill reflects the Government’s commitment to maintaining the income of pensioners in these difficult times. It allows for the uprating of the safety net in pension credit and of widows’ and widowers’ benefits in industrial death benefit. I am grateful, too, to noble Lords for ensuring that the Bill will be passed in time to receive Royal Assent before the Work and Pensions Secretary must conclude her uprating review of benefits and pensions. In doing so, the state pension and pension credit standard minimum guarantee can and will be uprated next year. I beg to move.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her remarks. As I made clear at the outset, we support the Bill, while deeply regretting the economic circumstances that have made it necessary. During its brief passage, some important issues have been raised. I hope the Government have taken note of those issues and will apply themselves to them in the near future. During our consideration of the Bill many noble Lords raised the question of support for those of working age. I keep hoping that we will hear some good news on that—especially on universal credit and other working-age benefits—soon.

We have had some really interesting discussions about the difficult and growing issue of pensioner poverty. We now have 1.9 million pensioners living in relative poverty and the Government need to develop and implement a strategy for tackling pensioner poverty. That will require a proactive plan to boost take-up of pension credit. I regret that I was unable to attend the rearranged meeting with the Pensions Minister on this matter but I look forward to hearing what went on there. At the moment, four out of 10 eligible pensioners do not claim it, so they are missing out on that and on other benefits, including, increasingly, free TV licences for the over-75s.

Then there is the fact that the triple lock does not apply to pension credit. The Minister said in her opening remarks that there will be an uprating to the standard minimum guarantee in pension credit but I did not catch whether she said by how much. In Committee she told my noble friend Lady Drake that she would write to her to tell her whether the Government intend to pass through the triple-lock payment to pensioners on pension credit—which is of course crucial, because if they do not, the richest pensioners will get the full benefit of the triple lock but the poorest will not because it will be clawed back from pension credit. Can she clarify the position on that? If she has written to my noble friend Lady Drake, I apologise; I have missed the letter.

I am very glad that we were able to get the Bill through the House in good time. It was a pleasure to welcome two maiden speakers in Committee: the noble Lord, Lord Field of Birkenhead, and the noble Baroness, Lady Stuart of Edgbaston. I would like to express my thanks to the Minister and her officials who have met us and answered questions; it is a very co-operative department and I am very grateful. I thank colleagues across the House for their thoughtful contributions; Dan Stevens of our staff team for his support with the Bill; and the House officials and the broadcast team.

Pensioners deserve to spend their retirement in financial security. This Bill will enable the Government to fulfil their manifesto commitment to apply the triple lock to the state pension and we have been pleased to support it.

[Baroness Janke (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I, too, thank noble Lords for their contributions to our deliberations on the Bill, and I thank the Minister and her team for providing us with advice and information to help us understand the issues raised by the Bill. We very much welcome the Government’s commitment to the triple lock and hope that it will not be abandoned as a short-term political fix in the face of the economic difficulties that are no doubt ahead of us. I am sure that the Government have listened to the issues raised in the debate, and I hope they will look again at the position of overseas pensioners whose pensions are worth so little despite how much they have contributed over the years. It seems that the Government have committed to consider the numbers of pensioners living in poverty. I draw attention particularly to the plight of many women who have received very unfair treatment and unfair settlements on their pensions.

I welcome the work that is being started on pension credit and I believe that the Government are committed to ensuring that those who need it most are, in fact, able and willing to claim it. I thank the Minister again for the meeting yesterday, which I thought was extremely positive, and I look forward to working with her on that project. I also thank my colleagues for supporting the Bill and Sarah Pughe in the Liberal Democrats office, who supported us so ably. So saying, I give my support to the Bill.

Universal Credit

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Thursday 12th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

The noble Baroness raises the important issue of evidence. Analysis shows that the Government’s interventions have supported the poorest working households, as a proportion of February income, the most, with those in the bottom 10% of the income distribution seeing no reduction in their income.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, because the £20 uplift was not extended to legacy benefits, an adult on universal credit is given £94 a week to live on but her neighbour on JSA or ESA gets just £74 a week. The Minister told the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham that there were no plans to change this, but she did not tell him why. Could she please explain to the House and the 2 million people on JSA and ESA why they do not deserve the same help when their food and bills cost every bit as much as those for people on universal credit?

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

I note the point that the noble Baroness makes and it is well made, but as I said, the Government’s position is that we have no plans to increase legacy benefits further. People on legacy benefits can transfer to universal credit and they can do a calculation before they transfer to make sure they will be better off.