Pension Review: Phase 2

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Wednesday 18th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Brixton]

To ask His Majesty’s Government whether they have paused phase 2 of their pension review, and if so, why.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Sherlock) (Lab)]

My Lords, this Government are committed to enabling tomorrow’s pensioners to have security in retirement, which is why we announced the landmark pensions review days after coming into office in July. The first phase will boost investment and economic growth, with two consultations live since November, and we are committed to a second phase focused on retirement adequacy, of which we will provide further details in due course.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

I very much welcome my noble friend the Minister’s reply, but of course she will be aware of how this works. Last weekend there was a series of stories in the national press, from the FT to the Sun, suggesting that the second phase had been put on hold, presumably to provide some assurance to those who are concerned about the high costs of employment. The problem is that without an urgent definition of an adequate pension on a clear and evidence-based basis, much of the debate that we can have on pensions is facile and empty of content. You cannot know which way to go unless you know where you are going. Does the Minister agree?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I think I can agree with the last statement firmly. I will try to avoid being facile and empty of content; I cannot make permanent promises, but I will do my best. I understand the point my noble friend is making, but I can perhaps offer him some reassurance. The pensions review is going to be conducted in two phases, and it matters that they are structured in the right way. The first phase, which was launched by the Chancellor in July, is aiming to boost investment, so it offers a win-win. It will boost investment for the country and provide better saver outcomes, alongside economic growth.

Phase 1 launched two significant consultations: one about DC schemes and the other about the Local Government Pension Scheme. It is right that we focus on delivering the first phase before moving on to phase 2. But the second phase, my noble friend will be glad to know, will focus on pensions adequacy and further measures to improve outcomes for pensioners. I take his point about the need to be clear about what adequacy means, and I will take that back. The scope of the second phase will be announced in due course, but I will take that comment back to my colleagues as that is being developed.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that the pensions review will cover the ombudsman’s recommendations for WASPI women, on which subject I declare an interest?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I fully accept that the noble Baroness may not be alone in this place in that declaration of interest. The ombudsman’s review is something to which the Government have already made their response. It was published yesterday, and I repeated a Statement in the House that was made by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State.

As noble Lords will be aware, the Government looked very carefully at the evidence that was provided to and by the ombudsman, and we concluded that while we accept the specific case of maladministration by allowing a 28-month delay in sending out personalised letters to women born in the 1950s, the Government could not accept that that created the impact the ombudsman had described and therefore could not accept the recommendation on injustice and remedy. I am also very aware of the widespread concern among many women who had hoped to retire at 60 and found that they could not, which is a mixture of the decision back in 1995 to equalise the state pension age and the decision of the coalition Government in 2011 to accelerate those changes. That was not a subject of the ombudsman’s review, and nor is it the subject of the pensions review.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister talks about the two stages of the pensions review, which is very important. Can she confirm that the modelling by the Government Actuary—and I stress that—shows that the measures in stage 1 of the pensions review will, at best, only slightly improve member outcomes? Those are his words, not mine. Can she give me some reassurance that stage 2 will be given the priority it deserves? Can we get a timescale for when we will get to stage 2? I know the Minister cares about pensioners, and this review is necessary.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord. We share that; we both care about pensioners. This Government are absolutely committed to making sure that outcomes for pensioners from private pension savings are as good as they can be. Both phases matter. It matters absolutely that we get the pensions market working properly the first time around. The noble Lord will be aware that measures have been announced for the pensions Bill, but there are live consultations on a range of measures that can enhance both growth for the UK and outcomes for savers.

It really matters. We want to end up, as our proposal suggests, with fewer, but better and bigger, pension schemes. All the international evidence suggests that consolidation and scale produce better results for savers. That, in the end, is what will drive private pension incomes. If we can get the market working well, we can try to get people saving as much into it as they need to.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness on her promotion. I understand that stage 2 of the review, if it does go ahead, focusing on pensions adequacy, might recommend that pensions contributions increase from 8% to 12%, meaning that employees would continue to contribute 3%, but with employers increasing their contributions from 5% to 9%, which is a very heavy burden, especially on hard-pressed small businesses. In addition, for employees opting out of auto-enrolment, which is their right, the recommendation might be that employers would still pay their side of the contribution. Why did the Chancellor not think holistically about all the costs that businesses have to bear in employing staff when she made the decision in her Budget to raise the national insurance contributions?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount for his kind words. I am very grateful; it is very gracious of him. He is asking me to comment on speculation about something that might be recommended in the phase 2 review, which has not started yet, so I hope he will bear with me. We think that getting this the right way around really matters. Phase 1 is about trying to get the market working as well as it should, both the DC side and the consultation on the Local Government Pension Scheme. If we can get the market functioning well and drive more scale and consolidation, looking at what they are doing in Canada and Australia, we can then have a better-functioning market and better returns. At that point in stage 2, we can look at matters of adequacy and at what money is going into it.

[Lord Sikka (Lab)]

My Lords, we live in a country where 50% of the population own less than 5% of wealth and the poorest 10% own just 0.02%. What plans do the Government have to improve the share of wealth of a substantial part of the population to enable them to save for a private pension? Surely such things cannot be left to the market.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I think that might be slightly above my pay grade. The Government want to make sure that everybody can save an appropriate amount for retirement. For that to work, one of the starting points is that people have to earn enough in their working lives to be able to have an option of saving anything. The measures that the Government have taken, in our plans for jobs and in looking at what we are doing with the national living wage and to try to drive good work, are about trying to drive economic growth, get more people into good jobs and help them to stay there and to grow in their careers. The work has been done around the Get Britain Working White Paper. All the plans around that are trying to get people to develop in their working life and to be more productive to drive economic growth. That is a win-win. It is good for the country and good for individuals and their families.

[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

My Lords—

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[Baroness Bennett of Manor Castle (GP)]

Returning to the case of the WASPI women and the Government’s ruling against them, can the Minister tell me whether the fact that the Government have overruled the evidence-based decision of the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman is likely to be open to legal challenge? If there is a legal challenge, will the fact that the Labour Party campaigned for WASPI women during the election campaign have an impact on the case?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I think anything is open to legal challenge if one can find a lawyer to take a case. There have been legal challenges in the past on this decision. If there are again challenges, the Government will present their case. The noble Baroness mentioned that the ombudsman looked at the evidence —so did the Government. We looked very carefully at the evidence. One of the things we have been doing for the past six months is going through line by line every piece of evidence that the ombudsman offered, looking at the evidence we have and what we understand, and we reached evidence-driven conclusions. That is the basis on which we made the decision.

I recognise that it is not a decision that everybody is happy with. I recognise that there will be women born in the 1950s who are disappointed. But I am also convinced that most of the disappointment and, indeed, much of the campaigning and noise were actually about the change in the state pension age and its timing, rather than the very narrow decision that the ombudsman took. The ombudsman said that it was simply about the way DWP communicated with people about the state pension age. The ombudsman found that between 1995 and 2004 the communications were absolutely fine. There was a 28-month period when, although other communications were out there, such as campaigns, employer campaigns et cetera, those letters should have been sent earlier. We have accepted that, and if any legal case comes we will present our case in court, as we always do.

Women’s State Pension Age Communication: PHSO Report

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Tuesday 17th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Sherlock) (Lab)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall repeat a Statement made earlier today in the other place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. The Statement is as follows:

“With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Statement on the investigation by the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman into the way that changes in the state pension age were communicated to women born in the 1950s.

The state pension is the foundation for a secure retirement. That is why this Government are committed to the pensions triple lock, which will increase the new state pension by more than £470 a year from this April and deliver an additional £31 billion of spending over the course of this Parliament, and it is why Governments of all colours have a responsibility to ensure that changes to the state pension age are properly communicated so that people can plan for their retirement.

Before I turn to the Government’s response to the ombudsman’s report, I want to be clear about what this report investigated and what it did not. The report is not an investigation into the actual decision to increase the state pension age for women in 1995 or to accelerate that increase in 2011—a decision that the then Conservative Chancellor George Osborne said

“probably saved more money than anything else we’ve done”.

Understandably, that comment angered many women and sparked the original WASPI campaign.

The ombudsman is clear that policy decisions to increase the state pension age in 1995 and since were taken by Parliament and considered lawful by the courts. This investigation is about how changes in the state pension age were communicated by the Department for Work and Pensions and the impact this may have had on the ability of women born in the 1950s to plan for their retirement.

I know that this is an issue of huge concern to many women, which has spanned multiple Parliaments. Like so many other problems we have inherited from the party opposite, this is something that the previous Government should have dealt with. Instead, they kicked the can down the road and left us to pick up the pieces, but today we deal with it head on. My honourable friend the Pensions Minister and I have given the ombudsman’s report serious consideration and have looked in detail at the findings and at information and advice provided by the department which was not available to us before coming into government.

The ombudsman looked at six cases. He found that the department provided adequate and accurate information on changes to the state pension age between 1995 and 2004, including through leaflets and pension education campaigns and on its website. However, decisions made between 2005 and 2007 led to a 28-month delay in sending out letters to women born in the 1950s. The ombudsman says that these delays did not result in the women suffering direct financial loss but that they were maladministration.

We accept that the 28-month delay in sending out letters was maladministration, and, on behalf of the Government, I apologise. This Government are determined to learn all the lessons from what went wrong, and I will say more about that in a moment. We also agree that the women suffered no direct financial loss because of this maladministration. However, we do not agree with the ombudsman’s approach to injustice or remedy, and I want to spell out why.

First, the report does not properly take into account research showing that there was considerable awareness that the state pension age was increasing. It references research from 2004 showing that 43% of women aged over 16 were aware of their state pension age, but it does not sufficiently recognise evidence from the same research that 73% of women aged 45 to 54—the very group that covers women born in the 1950s—were aware that the state pension age was increasing, or research from 2006 that 90% of women aged 45 to 54 were aware that the state pension age was increasing.

Secondly, the report says that if letters had been sent out earlier, it would have affected what women knew about the state pension age. However, we do not agree that sending letters earlier would have had the impact the ombudsman says. Research given to the ombudsman shows that only around a quarter of people who are sent unsolicited letters remember receiving them or reading them, so we cannot accept that, in the great majority of cases, sending a letter earlier would have affected whether women knew their state pension age was rising or increased their opportunities to make informed decisions.

These two facts—that most women knew the state pension age was increasing and that letters are not as significant as the ombudsman says—as well as other reasons, have informed our conclusion that there should be no scheme of financial compensation to 1950s-born women in response to the ombudsman’s report. The ombudsman says that, as a matter of principle, redress and compensation should normally reflect individual impact. However, the report itself acknowledges that assessing the individual circumstances of 3.5 million women born in the 1950s would have a significant cost and administrative burden. It has taken the ombudsman nearly six years to investigate the circumstances of six sample complaints. For the DWP to set up a scheme and invite 3.5 million women to set out their detailed personal circumstances would take thousands of staff years to process.

Even if there were a scheme where women could self-certify that they were not aware of changes to their state pension age and that they had suffered injustice as a result, it would be impossible to verify the information provided. The alternative put forward in the report is for a flat-rate compensation scheme at level 4 of the ombudsman’s scale of injustice. This would provide £1,000 to £2,950 per person, at a total cost of between £3.5 billion and £10.5 billion.

Given that the great majority of women knew the state pension age was increasing, the Government do not believe that paying a flat rate to all women, at a cost of up to £10.5 billion, would be a fair or proportionate use of taxpayers’ money, not least when the previous Government failed to set aside a single penny for any compensation scheme and left us a £22 billion black hole in the public finances.

This has been an extremely difficult decision to take, but we believe it is the right course of action and we are determined to learn all the lessons to ensure that this type of maladministration never happens again. First, we want to work with the ombudsman to develop a detailed action plan out of the report, so that every and all lessons are learned. Secondly, we are committed to setting clear and sufficient notice of any changes in the state pension age, so that people can properly plan for their retirement. Thirdly, I have tasked officials to develop a strategy for effective, timely and modern communication on the state pension that uses the most up-to-date methods, building on changes that have already been made, such as the online ‘check your state pension’ service that gives a personal forecast of your state pension, including when you can take it, because one size rarely ever fits all.

We have not taken this decision lightly, but we believe it is the right course of action because the great majority of women knew the state pension age was increasing, because sending letters earlier would not have made a difference for most, and because the proposed compensation scheme is not fair or value for taxpayers’ money.

I know there are women born in the 1950s who want and deserve a better life. They have worked hard in paid jobs and in bringing up their families. Many are struggling financially with the cost of living and fewer savings to fall back on, and they worry about their health and how their children and grandchildren will get on. To those women I say: this Government will protect the pensions triple lock so that your state pension will increase by up to £1,900 a year by the end of this Parliament; we will drive down waiting lists, so you get the treatment you need, with an extra £22 billion of funding for the NHS this year and next; and we will deliver the jobs, homes and opportunities your families need to build a better life. I know that on this specific decision many 1950s-born women will be disappointed, but we believe it is the right decision and the fair decision. I commend this Statement to the House”.

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[Baroness Humphreys (LD)]

My Lords, today will be a day of disappointment for many women. They will feel that this new Government, by ignoring the independent ombudsman’s recommendations, have turned their back on the millions of pension-age women who were wronged through no fault of their own. That has to be of concern.

Liberal Democrats have long backed calls for women born in the 1950s affected by the pension changes to receive proper compensation for the Government’s failure to properly notify them of the changes, and have long supported the ombudsman’s findings. Today’s announcement is a hammer-blow to these women, who have fought tirelessly for many years to be properly compensated. I appreciate that the Government have had to make difficult decisions, but have they chosen to ignore the PHSO’s recommendations because they disagree with the findings or because they do not want to find the money to rightly compensate these women?

The PHSO’s ruling in March recommended that some women should get a payout and an apology. Obviously today they have received an apology, but they will not receive a penny of compensation for the maladministration found by the PHSO. Will the Minister outline why the Government have chosen to accept one half of the recommendation but not the other?

One WASPI woman dies every 13 minutes while this appalling scandal continues. Today’s announcement will be devastating for the WASPI community, which has campaigned tirelessly to rectify the maladministration. Does the Minister really think that today’s announcement is a fair solution?

Finally, in her letter to us today, and in the Statement, the Minister promises that this Government will protect the pensions triple lock, so that the yearly state pension is forecast to increase by up to £1,900 by the end of this Parliament. I welcome this promise. The pensions triple lock was a Lib Dem policy adopted by the coalition Government and I am proud of it, but this will be advantageous to all pensioners, not merely the WASPI women. Sadly, it in no way compensates these women for their losses. My colleagues in the other place have promised that they will continue to press Ministers to give those affected the fair treatment they deserve.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the ombudsman for the considerable work that went into producing this report. The issues it raises are complex and I am grateful that we have time to discuss them this evening, though I share with the noble Viscount the wish that we had more people here while we do it. I would always rather discuss these things with a wider audience.

I thank both noble Lords for their responses. Before I engage with the specific points that they raised, I want to say a few more words about the background to this. The noble Viscount began by, in essence, attacking my colleague the Secretary of State for politicising the issue and then went on to politicise it himself. Therefore, we can either do that—we can take it in turns to point at each other—or we can try to address the issues. I am going to try to do the latter.

We have been looking seriously into the issues raised since we came into office in July. That work has involved looking at what Parliament has said, examining the evidence submitted to the ombudsman, meeting the interim ombudsman and listening carefully to the views expressed by the women affected. We listened, we read, and we reflected before coming to a decision.

The most important thing, to start, is to be clear about what exactly the ombudsman investigated. The ombudsman did not investigate the decision, first taken in 1995, to equalise the state pension age for men and women. I know that many women have strong feelings about that change, particularly the decision taken by the former Government—the Conservative/Liberal Democrat coalition Government—in 2011 to accelerate the changes sharply, which made a significant difference to a number of women. That was a policy that Labour opposed at the time, but the policy was agreed by Parliament, maintained by subsequent Governments and upheld in the courts. It is not the issue at hand today.

What the ombudsman did investigate was how the change of the state pension age was communicated by DWP to the women affected. I can see a Whip on the opposite Benches shaking his head. That is literally what the ombudsman did; I invite him to read the report. The ombudsman concluded that between 1995, when the original decision was taken, and 2004, our communications,

“reflected the standards we would expect it to meet”.

However, it found that between 2005 and 2007, there was a 28-month delay in DWP sending out personalised letters to the women affected. The ombudsman found that that constituted maladministration by the department. It argued that that led to injustice and proposed that financial remedy should be paid to those affected.

The Government accept the ombudsman’s finding of maladministration. We are sorry for the 28-month delay in writing to the 1950s-born women and we are determined to learn lessons from this experience to ensure that it does not happen again. I will come back to that.

In response to the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, the reason the Government accepted this in part is that maladministration is about the actions that were taken at the time when things went wrong. We recognise that those letters should have been sent 28 months earlier. They were not; we apologise for that and accept maladministration. Injustice and remedy are about the consequences of those actions. Where we diverge from the ombudsman is on the impact of that failure. That is why we accepted the finding of maladministration, but we are not able to agree with the ombudsman’s decision on the approach to injustice and remedy. That is because the ombudsman had assumed that receiving those letters earlier would have changed what the women knew and how they acted, despite evidence to the contrary.

Research has shown that letters are not an effective means of communicating state pension information in the great majority of cases. Research from 2017 found that only one in four people who got an unsolicited letter remembered receiving and reading it. That suggests that sending letters earlier, as the ombudsman suggested, would not have affected what most women knew and, therefore, the decisions that they took. In other words, while we accept there was unnecessary delay in sending letters to women, we do not accept that that delay led to injustice in the great majority of cases. Given that, with the research suggesting that 90% of 1950s-born women were aware of changes to the state pension age, we cannot justify financial remedy. Paying compensation to all 1950s-born women at the rate proposed by the ombudsman, as the Statement said, could cost as much as £10.5 billion. We cannot justify paying out such a significant sum of money—taxpayer money—when the great majority of 1950s-born women were aware of the changes and therefore experienced no injustice. Writing letters to those who were unaware would not have made a difference for most.

The noble Viscount, Lord Younger, asked whether we had assessed how many women’s cases were strong. The answer is that we have not, for the reasons set out in the Statement. It is the same question, in essence, as whether we could create a targeted compensation scheme to compensate only those affected. Of course, we looked carefully at that possibility, but we concluded that such a scheme is impossible to deliver in a way that is fair and represents value for money. In fact, the ombudsman itself pointed out the challenges in doing that, as the noble Viscount will know, since I know he has read the report. It took the ombudsman, as it pointed out, nearly six years to investigate six cases.

To set up a scheme whereby the DWP would have to consider the detailed personal circumstances of as many as 3.5 million women born in the 1950s would take thousands of staff many years. In fact, we estimated that if we received claims from 60% of that 3.5 million, running a bespoke scheme would require 10 times as many staff as currently administer the state pension for all 12 million pensioners. That is the scale and the impact on the everyday running of the department.

Even more crucially, it would require us to make subjective judgments about whether giving each affected individual different information at different times would have led to different decisions and what the consequences would have been. Those are inherently difficult to consider, never mind prove, and it would be impossible to verify the claims for a scheme where someone self-certifies that they have suffered injustice. As a result, because we do not agree with the ombudsman’s approach to injustice, because 90% of 1950s-born women were aware of the changes and because it would be impossible to set up a bespoke scheme that would be fair, reliable and value for money, we cannot justify paying compensation.

I think it is worth dwelling for just a moment on the fact that this is not about the state pension age because I think that is one of the biggest challenges. We understand that that is difficult, but that decision was made in 1995 and has been settled, and I think nobody is arguing for reopening that.

The noble Viscount asked about learning lessons. The DWP is committed to learning lessons from the ombudsman’s findings so that we can deliver the best possible services in future. This case highlights just how important it is to get communication with our citizens right. We have already taken steps to make this better. We regularly engage with stakeholders and customer representatives, not just in general, but to test and provide feedback on many of the communication materials that we put out.

However, as the Secretary of State said, there is more to be done. The action plan is something that we are going to work on with the ombudsman. We will report on that in due course, and I will keep the noble Viscount informed as that work develops. We are determined to work with the ombudsman to develop an action plan identifying and addressing all the lessons this experience offers. We are continually developing our policy on communicating state pension age changes, rooted in our commitment to give clear and sufficient notice of any changes to those affected.

The noble Viscount quoted in my comment in the letter I sent to all Peers earlier today that

“even taking the difficult decisions we are faced with in government, we feel a deep sense of responsibility to ensure that every pensioner gets the security and dignity in retirement they deserve”.

I will allow myself one little bit of politics here. It is that, despite the very large hole in the finances that the previous Government left, we have none the less managed to find the money to maintain the triple lock, which will involve spending £31 billion, with the result that the new state pension and the basic state pension will go up by 4.1% next April, and in the case of the new state pension, the full yearly rate by the end of the Parliament is likely to be £1,900 higher.

The decision today does not mean that we do not understand that some women are facing financial hardship. The noble Viscount asked me for figures about pension credit. I can tell him that 150,000 people applied for pension credit in the 16 weeks following the announcement. Of those 42,000—I think, from memory, and I will write to him if I am wrong—had a successful claim. We know that at the very least there are those extra numbers of people, significantly more than there would have been in the comparable period previously, who are already getting pension credit and there may be many more. People have until 21 December to apply. Those cases that are in before that deadline will get processed and in due course those who succeed will get not only get the winter fuel payment, which is what the noble Viscount brought up, but all the benefits of pension credit itself and all the passported benefits that it brings with it.

This was a difficult decision to make. There were other questions. The noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, asked whether we just disagree or whether it is about money. I hope I have answered that. I have set out the arguments. The noble Baroness may or may not disagree with them, but I have tried to set out the reasoning the Government did. We tried throughout this to follow the evidence. That is all that a Government can do when faced with a report such as this. We went through it incredibly carefully. It is evidence that the noble Viscount will be very familiar with. Since he was doing my job before me, he will have had it rather longer than I have. We spent the past six months going through it in detail. We have considered the evidence, and we have made what we believe is the right decision. That does not mean it was not a difficult decision, and I recognise that it will be a disappointing one for many 1950s women. It is not a reflection on their campaigning or anything else, but we feel that, despite that, it was the right decision, for the reasons I set out, and I hope that the House can accept that.

[The Earl of Effingham (Con)]

My Lords, perhaps the Minister might allow me to clarify something. She highlighted that I was shaking my head. Just for the record, I was communicating with her noble friend Lady Anderson about the supplementary questions. I was not shaking my head at anything she was saying.

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[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I apologise for oversensitivity on my part. I thank the noble Earl for clarifying that.

[Baroness Bryan of Partick (Lab)]

My Lords, I would like to ask a supplementary question. I first congratulate my noble friend on her new position. I am only sorry that it has come on the same day as this announcement and that she is thrown right into this difficult debate. I know she will be extremely aware that the very women who are most affected by the change in pension age and the delay in sending out notifications are the very same ones who were least aware of the changes. In many cases, they had already taken the decision to leave work, usually because of caring responsibilities, but with the expectation that they would receive their state pension on the date that they had been led to expect, and hopefully before their savings ran out. These women were probably the most isolated, care-worn and least able to access information online. In many cases, the letters came too late to allow them to make alternative plans.

Just because an injustice is widespread does not mean that it should be ignored. I repeat the question asked by the WASPI women today: what is the point of those six years of the ombudsman giving the report if the Government can simply ignore it?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for her opening comment. I fully recognise the point that she is making. There will be women out there who are very disappointed. There will be many women who expected to retire at 60 and then found that they could not. I hope she will agree with me that one of the biggest drivers of that concern and of the impact was the decision of the previous Government to accelerate those state pension changes in 2011. That meant that they were brought forward very sharply, which had a significant impact on a number of women. However, that is not what the ombudsman was talking about today, it is not what the report was about, and it is not what we are doing here.

I should say at the outset that letters are only ever one part of any communications system. There was extensive communication. The ombudsman found that our communications between 1995 and 2004 were just as they should be. The ombudsman was also aware that a lot of other kinds of activity were going on. There were advertising campaigns, work with employers, and all sorts of information going out. The letters were only one small part of that.

The 28-month delay in those letters has led us to believe not that there are not women who had hoped to retire at 60 and were not able to do so, but that this injustice was not caused by the failure that we described. It is because of this that we simply do not feel able to do it. We had to come back to the evidence. Is the evidence there that that specific act of maladministration caused that injustice? We do not believe that it did, and therefore we do not believe that it was appropriate to provide a compensation scheme.

[Baroness Anderson of Stoke-on-Trent (Lab)]

My Lords, I beg to move that the House—

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I would like to come back briefly with a further question, as there is time; we do have time for Back-Bench questions as well as Front-Bench questions. As regards the future, can the Minister give us a feel for how progress on AI is going in the department in respect of the data for WASPI women?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I would like to talk to the noble Viscount outside to understand exactly what he is asking about AI. If he can clarify the question, I will be very happy to write to him with an answer.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

My Lords, could I—

“Get Britain Working” White Paper

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Wednesday 27th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Sherlock) (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank both noble Lords for their very constructive responses. It is a marked difference from the other place, but plus ça change. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, both for her welcome for the White Paper and for the constructive way in which she approaches these questions. I pay tribute to the work that she has done over many years at Tomorrow’s People and looking at this. I think we will find as we go on that she and I probably share more of an interest—a commonality—in these questions. I may differ with her on some of the choices that her Government made, but we share a view that we have to do what is right to get people into work and to support them to stay there.

Let me do the formal bit first. Yesterday the Government published the Get Britain Working White Paper, bringing forward what we see as the biggest reforms to employment support in a generation. We have already heard that the UK now faces a significant challenge. We have a near-record 2.8 million people out of work due to long-term sickness or disability. Add to that that one in eight of our young people is not in education, employment or training. A stat that I had not seen before but that shocked me is that in England almost a fifth of working-age adults do not have even the equivalent of one GCSE. If we are starting from that position, how can we possibly carry on as we are and expect things not to carry on the way they have been?

Addressing challenges on that scale needs a different approach. We are determined to start a process that we know will take time but will continue to drive down economic inactivity and create opportunity. It will involve fundamental reform of the Department for Work and Pensions, focusing it firmly as a department for work. It will mean overhauling Jobcentre Plus to create, as we have heard, a new employment service, bringing it together with the National Careers Service in England.

The noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, asked whether we would give people help to stay in work. She is so right: our aim is not just to get people into jobs. The whole point of the new service is that it will not just be for those out of work, because it will be careers as well. It is there to get people to get into a job, get on in work and then progress and develop a career. We have to turn this country from one of inactivity, low pay and low-opportunity jobs to one that can transform not just the lives of individuals but the country, so the system will be universal and do all those things.

Supporting young people has to be crucial. We will improve access to training and job opportunities and establish the youth guarantee that was mentioned, so that young people are earning or learning. As a first step, we are working with mayoral authorities to set up the eight youth guarantee trailblazers with £45 million of funding. I think there is a dialogue to be had between the two Front Benches, because one reason that we are doing trailblazers is that we need to know what works. The noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, is absolutely right: if we find out that something works, we do more of it; if we find out that it does not work, we do something different. That is why we need trailblazers to know what will work. How can we better get local and central government working together to give people better support when they are young and desperately need opportunity?

Local knowledge is crucial. The White Paper is based on the assumption that we want to empower local leaders to know best what is there for their community and show leadership. Every area in England will be supported to bring forward a local “Get Britain Working” plan, and there will be £125 million going out for those eight trailblazers, looking right across England and including one in Wales. Three of the English trail- blazers will also receive a share of £45 million for dedicated input from the NHS. So often, health is a barrier to getting people into work. We have to join up public services to have any chance of getting this right.

We also know that good work is good for health. We want to get the NHS and the wider health system working to improve employment outcomes, so we will target extra support on driving down waiting times. But we also have to address the key public health issues that contribute to worklessness. We will expand access to expert employment advisers as part of treatment and care pathways.

We are also committed to tackling the root causes of mental health problems. The youth guarantee will support young people to access and navigate their way through mental health services, and there will be specialist mental health support in every school and health professionals available in colleges. We have prioritised funding, despite the tough spending round, to expand NHS talking therapies and the individual placement support programme.

There is loads more going on. We have an independent “Keep Britain Working” review, in partnership with business and led by Sir Charlie Mayfield, who used to chair John Lewis. That will help us to understand the role of employers in creating and maintaining healthy jobs and healthy workplaces. We have set out the principles to reform health and disability benefits, to ensure that the system supports people who can work to start or remain in work, in a way that is fair but also fiscally sustainable. We have launched the guidance for Connect to Work, our new locally led supported employment programme.

I was asked a number of questions. I probably will not get through them all in the time, but there were a few practical ones. The noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, asked about fit notes. She may remember that there was a call for evidence about fit notes. That closed in July and we have received more than 1,900 responses. Those are being analysed at the moment, and the results will inform our approach going forward. On the question of work coach support, I completely relate to her comments about the Friday girl. At the heart of this is the relationship between the work coach and the people they try to support into work. If we can get that right, all kinds of things are possible.

I have long said—I think I said this to the noble Baroness when we were in opposite positions—that I have been worried for some time that the danger was that our system was still designed as though the major challenge facing the labour market was unemployed people who did not want to work. However, for quite some time it has been people who struggle to work for a range of reasons to do with health or disability, and the system has to be able to address all of that. We are trying to turn this around to focus on making sure people get the support they need, at the time they need it, in the way that works best for them, so they can get jobs and keep them.

The noble Baroness has loads of experience working with young people, and, if it is going to work, we need to make sure that work coaches have that. We will set up a work coach academy to make sure that we can drive up the skills of our work coaches. That will be at the heart of making this work.

I was also asked about GDP per capita and productivity. GDP per capita is essentially about growth and we have to get this right. If we are going to deal with growth, we have to deal with the fundamentals of the economy. I will not go through the pantomime of mentioning black holes because, hey, life is short.

[Noble Lords]

Oh, go on.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

If you insist. My Lords, this Government inherited a massive black hole—

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

Oh well. The reality is that it was quite clear to us that the Government needed to take some difficult decisions to deliver long-term stability and growth. Businesses need stability, infra- structure and a health service and transport system that function, to be able to operate.

We recognise the pressures on business, and our Ministers have been out there speaking to the Federation of Small Businesses, the Chambers of Commerce and the CBI. They are very keen to work with us on this, because they know that their members have hundreds of thousands of vacancies they cannot fill. One-third of those are because of skills gaps. They know that 300,000 people every year fall out of work due to a health or disability problems. We have to support them and support the individuals dealing with that. We want our jobcentres to serve business and to be not a place you go as a last resort when you cannot hire anyone but a place of first resort where you find people and get the learning, experience and support to make your business function.

I would really defend against the challenge that the programme is too small. This is one-year funding for a reason. It is because these are trailblazers to figure out what works. We know what does not work. If what we had been doing worked, we would not have 2.8 million people who are out of work due to long-term sickness or disability. We have to test processes to make sure they work. We are going to learn from that, but we know this is a long-term process.

I should add for the record that many of the policy areas described in the White Paper are devolved in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. To be clear, in those cases, the focus on the White Paper is on the actions of the UK Government in England. But we will be working closely with the Scottish and Welsh Governments to ensure that everything we do dovetails well with existing devolved support. We are keen to understand what works well across the UK and to learn from Northern Ireland’s experience of delivering employment and career support.

I recognise that these are ambitious reforms. I know they will take time and they will need help—not just from the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, but from stakeholders and experts across the economy. But we can do this. Together, we can build a labour market that gives everyone the opportunity to be the person they want to be. Also, we can be the country we all want us to be. To do that, we need to get Britain working again.

[Lord Laming (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for setting out the numbers of young people we are talking about who are not in employment or education. The Minister will know that earlier this year the Public Services Committee of this House set out a report based on a study of the transitional arrangements many of these young people experience as they move from school to employment, especially those with a disability or long-term health problems.

We had the extremes in the evidence. Some were simply brushed aside as being unemployable for a lifetime. For others, services and employers at local level got together and produced some wonderful opportunities to completely change the life chances of these young people. Could the Minister assure the House that the Government will look at this report and take forward the recommendations? They were considerable and intended to achieve some of the outcomes set out in this paper.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for that intervention and also of course for his many years of experience and work in the field of social policy and social care. I very much feel that what he described is what we are trying to do, and I absolutely assure him that the report will be looked at in detail and we will go through the recommendations carefully. One challenge we have is that it is too easy to write off young people. Nowadays, they are judged: the assumption is that they are not trying very hard and the expectations are there. Actually, I do not meet young people who do not want to be out there building a life. It is just that, sometimes, the challenges feel too big. If we can find the right way to support them—if we can get proper mental health support in place and if we can help employers to know how best to work with people who have mental health challenges—we can get people into jobs and they can stay in them.

In the years that I worked with single parents, for example, one thing I learned is that if people have found it difficult to get a job, if they find one that works for them, they are the most loyal employees anyone could get, because they have found a way in and something that works, and it becomes a brilliant relationship. So I am grateful to the noble Lord for that and I will take a careful look at it.

[Baroness Browning (Con)]

My Lords, on Friday morning, I was in a Jobcentre Plus office with a 50 year- old woman who has always worked—but not for the last two years, following a major spinal operation and rehabilitation. She is now ready to get back into work. When we went into that office, we were told that she was not entitled to any support from a disability job coach or adviser, although she is in receipt of PIP. The reason given was that she does not claim an unemployment benefit. What does the Minister suggest I do next to help this person? Why are we discriminating against disabled people wanting to get into work, whether they are claiming a benefit or not?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I am sorry to hear of the experience that the noble Baroness’s friend or family member had. What she said goes right to the heart of what we are doing. The point of the national jobs and careers service is that it is not just for people claiming benefits: it is for anybody who needs help getting into work, getting back to work or getting on in work. If we narrow it down to simply being about benefits, we will end up putting the incentives in the wrong place.

One thing that worries us about how the system has worked is that a lot of work coaches’ time is spent checking up to see whether everyone has ticked all the boxes and whether those on benefits have done all the right things. Of course, conditionality will always be a part of the system, but we want to see whether there are ways to reform that so that we can test different ways of making sure that people stay connected and work coaches can spend more time devoted to individuals —including the person that the noble Baroness described —to get them back into work if they want. There are 600,000 people out there who are long-term sick or disabled who want to work, but somehow they are not able to. We have to do something about that and we are determined to.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, there is much to welcome in these proposals for reform of employment support and their aim of better health and good work. But can my noble friend please assure me, first, that the emphasis will be more on carrots than on sticks? Secondly, can she assure me that transforming a department for welfare into a department for work will not mean further social security cuts or abandoning any attempt to repair the serious damage wreaked on the social security system over the past 14 years, at the cost of its role in addressing poverty and providing genuine security?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

Let me reassure my noble friend of two things. First, we are absolutely committed to tackling the scourge of child poverty, and the Government are completely committed to making sure that how the social security system works is part of that—so I can reassure her on that front.

Secondly, we often talk in terms of carrots and sticks, but I am not sure that that is very helpful. Most people want to get on: they want a satisfying job that will be rewarding in itself and that will also feed them and their family. People want the same things that we want for them, but lots of things get in the way. Our job is to set the system up so that it is aligned to go with that—to get barriers out of the way, to support people, to give them all the help they can get and to get them over the line.

Obviously, some people will not be able to work on grounds of severe disability or perhaps sickness, or maybe their caring responsibilities do not make that possible. The Department for Work and Pensions is there to support them, as it is to support pensioners and those who need our help. A small number of people really do not want to work and, frankly, they should. We are quite clear that we will support them and, in return, we expect them to do their bit. But, in between, surely we can design a system that is not just carrots or sticks but goes with the grain and helps people to be themselves.

[Baroness Manzoor (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the White Paper and the Minister’s comments. I know her total passion for trying to unlock the potential of young people. In that spirit, my question is about education and the links between education and skills. She mentioned one GCSE. I am concerned that the financial literacy of our young people is very poor and we need to lay particular emphasis on that. I would also welcome the support of the Government to unlock apprenticeships, with better conditions for employers to take on young people much earlier than they currently do.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Manzoor, and commend her for her work in the field of financial services over many years. She makes an important point about financial literacy. It is an interesting question. To give a simple example, if I go into a supermarket, I will sometimes see an offer on four cans of tomatoes which will actually be more expensive per can than the single cans sitting next to them. If people do not have basic maths, they will not even have the life skills they need when they most need them. If people do not understand what an APR means, how are they to know whether they are getting a decent deal, never mind beginning to think about pensions? I absolutely agree about the importance of that.

I also think it is really important to get apprenticeships right. One thing we are doing is putting money into more foundation apprenticeships, to give more young people the chance to get in much earlier. If people can get a foot on the ladder, or just get in the door, they can be inspired by something: it is a chance to do something, see something, achieve something, often to just be part of a team. After that, who knows where it can go? The noble Baroness raised two important points and I thank her for them.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I have two questions. I very much support the eight trailblazers for the youth guarantee, but what is meant by “the west of England”? Will the Government take further education to be as important as higher education?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

The main trailblazers are based on combined authorities and the youth trailblazers are being negotiated, so I will have to come back to the noble and learned Baroness on the boundaries of the west of England. On further education, I am absolutely supportive of that. The Government have already invested an additional £300 million of revenue funding into further education to support young people to get the skills they need, and are providing £300 million of capital investment to support colleges to maintain, improve and ensure the suitability of their estate. If she has been to one recently, she will know how much that is needed in some parts. On the apprenticeships fund, £40 million is being directed into delivering shorter and foundation apprenticeships in key sectors. We think that is a way to help people to move forward in the skills area.

[Baroness Blackstone (Lab)]

My Lords, following up on the point made opposite about apprentices, does my noble friend the Minister agree that nothing less than an apprenticeship guarantee is required? If so, what steps will the Government take, working with employers, to make sure that there is an apprenticeship guarantee, so that the many young people who are leaving school and are unable to get access to an apprenticeship will in future be able to do so?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, the aim of our youth guarantee is to go further than that. We want every young person to be guaranteed to get either high-quality training, an apprenticeship or a job, or the support to get into one of those places. There are many young people for whom an apprenticeship is absolutely the right thing; there are others for whom more training is necessary, and others for whom a job is the right way forward. That is what we want: at that age, that is the choice that people should have. They should be earning or learning, and a job, an apprenticeship or education is the way forward.

[Baroness Smith of Llanfaes (PC)]

My Lords, I welcome this White Paper, especially the emphasis on supporting young people into work and recognising that there are lots of different pathways that are suitable for people. It is difficult to distinguish what parts are relevant to Wales. There is reference in the White Paper to the trailblazer in Wales, so can the Minister clarify how this will work and where in Wales it will be?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I share this: I have a grid that tells me which bits are devolved and which are not in different parts, because I struggle to keep track of it. The noble Baroness probably knows much more about this than I do, for which I pay tribute. Essentially, in Wales, as she will know, health is devolved; employment support, including youth, skills and training, is devolved; careers are devolved; and welfare reform is reserved. We are going to work with the Welsh Government; for example, there is already a youth guarantee in Wales, as I am sure she is aware. Some of the principles in our White Paper go with the grain of work that has already begun in Wales and we will work with the Welsh Government on a Wales-based trailblazer and to figure out how best we can join up with what they are already doing, where the gaps are and how we can learn together. It will be very much a partnership question. In Scotland, it is slightly different again—not that she asked about Scotland—because different parts are devolved. In Northern Ireland, it is pretty much all transferred. We have already begun speaking to officials in all the devolved Administrations with a view to taking this forward.

[Lord Spellar (Lab)]

My Lords, paragraph 45 refers to the fact that the economically inactive are

“more likely (than the population as a whole) to have no qualifications, and some may also face other complex disadvantages, including homelessness, drug or alcohol addiction and contact with the criminal justice system”—

I stress that final point. In many cases, especially regarding criminal convictions and paper qualifications, these factors become insuperable barriers to gaining employment, even when they have no relevance to the actual requirements of the job concerned. Given that the best way to get a job is to have a job, I ask the Minister to look critically at these discriminatory practices, which are as prevalent in the public sector as in the private sector, and are not only damaging to individuals and their families but incredibly economically inefficient as they impact on hundreds of thousands of our citizens.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend, and I do not need persuading of this. One of the most inspiring things I have seen in the DWP—I did not start it, so I can say this—has been work with prison work coaches. They are based inside prisons, working with those who are preparing to leave, to try to make sure that we can get them into a job. I am working closely with my colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Timpson, and our departments are working together to try to find the best ways in which we can ease the transition from prisons into work. When we look at the levels of recidivism, which are staggeringly high—never mind what happens in young offender institutions—we know that, if we cannot crack this, it will not only be a potentially lifelong challenge for an individual, which they will never really overcome, but a huge problem for the state, both in the loss of opportunity for that individual and their talents and in terms of future crime. My noble friend raises a really important point.

[Baroness Gohir (CB)]

My Lords, I refer to my interests as set out in the register. Black and Asian women, particularly Bangladeshi and Pakistani women, have high unemployment rates and find it very difficult to get back into work after 15 or 20 years of caring responsibilities; for example, they may not have the digital skills they need. What are the Government doing to get these women into work? Are the apprenticeship schemes aimed at returners to work reaching these groups of women?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

The noble Baroness raises an important point and I pay tribute to her work with the Muslim Women’s Network and with so many in her community. There is a range of support out there and I have seen some good examples. On Employability Day, I spoke to one programme which was doing fantastic work with women from a number of minority communities who were returning to work, or maybe had never been in work, after their children had grown up. They had very particular barriers and the scheme was designed to focus on them.

One of our challenges is finding a way to get people not only into work, which is really important, but to develop in work. I am sure the noble Baroness will know this better than I do, but if you look at the distribution of people who are in jobs at national minimum wage or national living wage, there are overwhelmingly more young people and older people, but also Bangladeshi people and Pakistani people are much more likely to be in low-paid jobs. The one thing we know from the evidence is that if you start at a low pay, you stay in low pay—it is very hard to break out of it. One of the challenges in the new system, which we are determined to get right, as we develop the new national jobs and careers service, is: how do we help people, whatever their background, to have the opportunity to get in, but also to get on and have ambitions?

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, in opposition, the Labour Party said it would be the most business-friendly ever. However, since the last Budget, is the Minister aware that every single employer organisation, ranging from the CBI and the IoD to the NFU and the British Retail Consortium, have condemned the Budget as being thoroughly anti-business? Can she answer the question from the noble Baroness on the shadow Front Bench about how the Government are now going to repair relations with business? How can the Government deliver these programmes and strategies without the good will and support of business and wealth creators?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

As I said earlier, we have been very grateful that business and business organisations have made it clear that they do want to work with us on this, because there is a clear area of common interest. There are currently over 800,000 vacancies in the economy and businesses need to be able to recruit people, but they cannot do so.

On the broader point, I try not to play the political pantomime game on the Front Bench, but I have to say to the noble Lord that if we had not had the economic crash we did, we would not have to take the measures we have done. We did not want to take them, but we have to repair the economy and our public services, and get our economy growing again, and this Government will do what it takes.

[Lord Beamish (Lab)]

My Lords, the community and voluntary sector plays a key part in getting people into work, not only offering placements but actively working with groups that are difficult to reach. Does my noble friend agree that a lot of those voluntary and community groups are pushed out of this space because they are small and cannot bid for the contracts put forward by the DWP? That is an area she could look at, to ensure that groups such as the Just for Women Centre in County Durham, which does great work, can actually get those contracts.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My noble friend knows that the way to my heart is to mention County Durham. I should probably declare an interest, although it is so old that it is not an interest. Once upon a time I contracted with the then DWP to run employment programmes for single parents. That was about 100 years ago, so it is probably too old to be there now.

In response to my noble friend’s question, he is absolutely right that it is very hard for small voluntary organisations to bid for national contracts, yet they can often reach people that central government will never be able to. We have heard examples from around the House today. One of my hopes is that the more we can localise things, the easier it will be to involve a range of partners from an area, and people will know who the good players in their area are. Furthermore, the issues are different in different areas; as the noble Baroness, Lady Gohir, explained, some areas may have a large Muslim or Bangladeshi community, and in other areas there may be large numbers of young people and single parents. Under this system, each area will have a better sense of what its problems are and which partners can be worked with. The aim of the trailblazer areas is to see what difference that system can make.

[Lord Sikka (Lab)]

My Lords, I have received a message from a person in Birmingham with 20 years’ engineering experience who has been unemployed and is now a zero-hours contract worker. He says that engineering has been decimated by high energy costs and that our energy costs are more than double those of the French and four times those of the Chinese. When are the Government going to control energy costs and save skilled jobs? Over to you, Minister.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I never like to say that something is outside my range but sometimes it really is. The Government have a very clear strategy on green energy and building green jobs, and on building pathways to secure British energy. The creation of Great British Energy and the strategies around it will all make a difference. I am afraid that is the limit of my knowledge.

[Lord Sterling of Plaistow (Con)]

My Lords, not that many years ago, I had the pleasure of being chairman of the National Maritime Museum and got to know that area very well—it had a lot of unemployment. One day I was introduced to somebody who came along to the museum who was fourth generation on the dole. He said that it was not worth his while, considering the size of his house, to consider a job unless it paid somewhere near £48,000. I bring it up because everybody here, I would suggest, was born with a work ethic and was proud to get a job, but so many people now find all the ways possible to avoid doing so. I know how much this means to the Minister and my question is: how are we going to get people off the dole? There are millions of people who should not be on it at all.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

This is such a hard one. I have no doubt that there are some people out there who really do not want to work and cannot be bothered. They would not get £48,000 in benefits—they would not be able to—but I am sure there are such people out there. However, I have been around this game a long time and my experience is that most people do want to work; there are just huge problems and the figures back that up. We do not have a massive unemployment problem; we have a massive inactivity problem. We have a physical health problem, a mental health problem and a crisis of sickness, disability and an ageing population.

The challenge of years gone by may have been to make sure that everybody wanted to work. The challenge of today’s economy is to make sure that everybody is able to work, and that they are able to get the job they need to help transform our economy. If we do not do that, businesses cannot fill vacancies, the economy cannot grow and nothing can happen. We are going to do it.

State Pension: Age Increase

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Thursday 14th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Brixton]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what preparations they are making to inform people born on or after 6 April 1960 about the increase in their state pension age from 66 to 67 which will be implemented over the period 6 April 2026 to 5 April 2028.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Sherlock) (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government recognise that information about the state pension age is crucial to retirement planning and are committed to communicating planned state pension age changes effectively. The department undertakes a range of activities, including awareness campaigns, digital tools such as “Check your State Pension age” and sending personalised letters. We are developing our strategy to communicate information and assessing the most effective ways to raise awareness about state pension age changes.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend for her Answer. I remain concerned that we are only 17 months away from when people discover that they are not able to retire at the date that they thought they would. We know where this ends up: a finding of maladministration by the ombudsman and mass discontent. I urge the noble Lord, the noble Minister, the Baroness, to make sure that a mass campaign is initiated soon. Many people have an aversion to opening brown envelopes; we need this to be highlighted in the press for the next 17 months.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I answer to anything really. The Government have already used an array of methods to communicate state pension age changes, including leaflets, advertising campaigns, digital tools and directly writing to everybody affected. Between December 2016 and May 2018, DWP wrote to all those in the group my noble friend is talking about—that is, those born between 6 April 1960 and 5 April 1961, which includes me—who have state pension ages between 66 and 67. In 2016, DWP launched a tool “Check your State Pension age” on GOV.UK and also “Check your State Pension forecast”. More than 31 million digital forecasts have been done plus another 1.5 million paper forecasts. I think it is working. The 2021 Planning and Preparing for Later Life survey talked to exactly those people and found that, of those with a pension age between 66 and 67, 94% either correctly identified their state pension age or overestimated it.

[Baroness Meacher (CB)]

My Lords, with the increase in life expectancy in recent years, will the Government consider increasing the state pension age by more than one year in order to limit the tax burden on those of working age?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, life expectancy is increasing, but the rate of increase is slowing. Built into the Pensions Act 2014 is a requirement on the Secretary of State periodically to review the state pension age, taking into account life expectancy and a range of other appropriate factors. There have already been two of those reviews. The next one has to happen by March 2029, I think. I have no doubt that the Secretary of State will take account of precisely those matters.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that we do not want a repeat of the WASPI women scandal? We have been here before. If individuals are not properly informed about the change to their state pension age, will the Government consider introducing a clear appeals process or a safety net to ensure that no one is financially disadvantaged due to a lack of information? From past experience, we know that there will be many people who fall through the net, and we need to have an appeals process in place.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, it is crucial that everybody gets to know their state pension age, but the reality is that there are a lot of different ways in which people do that. I already knew that my state pension age was increasing. A lot of that was simply from information in the news and on television. One of the ironies is that, when I was first briefed about this, I was told that the department had written to everybody in that age category. I said that I had no recollection of receiving such a letter, but I was assured that it had happened. Last weekend, I moved house and, when I opened a folder of unfiled papers, what was sitting on the top but a letter dated February 2018 telling me that my state pension age would be 66 and two-thirds. The point is that different people receive information differently. I am of an age where I get most of my information on my phone, from which I am rarely parted, and from news consumption. We have to use every possible means of communicating to make sure that people get the information out there.

[Baroness Bryan of Partick (Lab)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that average life expectancy is highly variable depending on many factors, including class? There are parts of Glasgow where people die in large numbers before their pension age, so I hope the Minister can reassure me that the idea of extending it will not be adopted when the people who suffer most are those who need the pension most.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My noble friend raises an important point. One of the requirements on the Secretary of State when she comes to do the statutory review of the state pension age is to look at issues such as life expectancy. Every now and again, someone comes up with the idea of varying the state pension age by, for example, location or profession. The reality is that, whereas there are differences between regions or professions, in some cases the differences within them are as great as or greater than the differences between them, so trying to find a way of doing something that would be fair, other than a simple state pension age, is challenging. The real challenge for this Government, as for everyone, is that we should not have these regional variations in our country. We are one country, and we should be tackling those kinds of regional inequalities so that we do not end up in this position.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not the case that we should move to when people start paying national insurance? People often start work at 16 in construction and other jobs, while others do not start work until 23 or 24. Should there not be some understanding about the different types of people, how long they are in work and what jobs they do?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

There are variations. One of the challenges is that, now we want to keep young people in education, training or employment until 18, we find that fewer people leave school and start work early. My noble friend is raising an underlying point that is really about fairness. We want to see everybody having the opportunity to study for as long as is genuinely helpful and suits them, then to move into fulfilling work and to be able to progress in it over time. I return to one of the challenges. The Secretary of State will consider all factors, but if we look at how difficult it is—and we know how hard we have had to work—to communicate a single state pension age, trying to communicate variable state pensions ages risks complicating it. But my noble friend raises an important point, and we will keep it under consideration.

[Lord Evans of Rainow (Con)]

My Lords, the Chancellor has announced that she is going to merge 86 public sector pension funds into eight megafunds. We have been talking about that for quite a long time. Will the Minister update the House on how and when that will happen?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, information will be coming forward. We are doing a pension review at the moment. Stage 1 is coming to an end and stage 2 is coming through. There is also a pensions Bill coming through, and when that comes through, all the details will be made available.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

My Lords, why is it that those who are above the state pension age, whatever age it is, and still working and contributing to society are not required to pay national insurance? We are missing £1 billion-plus to the Treasury. National insurance is a tax; it does not pay for anything. It should be paid by all those who are working, irrespective of age.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, of all the weeks when I am not going to start making up national insurance policy on the hoof, this is most definitely one of them. However, I hear what my noble friend says, and I will pass that along.

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

My Lords, what assessment have the Government made of the impact on employment, particularly for older people, of increasing NI contributions for employers, bearing in mind that the winter fuel payment has been withdrawn?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, to separate those two out, the Treasury has published documentation on GOV.UK relating to the Budget and an impact assessment of different aspects of the Budget. On the question of the winter fuel payment, the noble Baroness will know that the vast majority of people who will be entitled to it are being encouraged, if necessary, to apply for pension credit or other benefits. For most of the rest, many of them will not be in employment and will not intend to be in employment. The winter fuel payment is aimed at people of pension age, so I do not see the connection between the winter fuel payment and national insurance, but if the noble Baroness wants to speak to me about it afterwards, I am happy to talk to her.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that one of the best ways to get these kinds of messages over to older people is through the network of voluntary organisations, particularly Age UK, Age Scotland, Age Cymru and Age Northern Ireland? Will she and her department mobilise that network to get this message across?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My noble friend is a great advocate for Age UK and its counterpart organisations, and they welcome his advocacy. We have a good relationship with Age UK and other charities in this sphere. They have been very effective at getting messages out, but I come back to the fact that we have to get messages out across the piece. Messaging about the state pension age is aimed at people who are not yet retired, including me, so we need to get messages out everywhere people get their information. One of the ways of doing that is through family and friends—spread the word. Please make sure that everyone is aware of this: go on GOV.UK to “Check your State Pension age” and “Check your State Pension forecast”.

Social Security Advisory Committee: Winter Fuel Payment

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Thursday 14th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Sherlock) (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her question. I am sure she is aware that the Secretary of State has replied to the Social Security Advisory Committee and has placed a copy of that on GOV.UK. She has gone through all the points raised by the SSAC and responded to them in detail, so I commend that to the noble Baroness. If noble Lords would like to ask any questions, I am happy to respond to them specifically. The department has a good working relationship with the SSAC. We welcome its observations and comments, and we always listen to the points it makes. It will be no different on this occasion.

The noble Baroness raised questions of housing benefits and costings. Final costings for the changes were certified and published by the OBR at the Autumn Budget and take account of any behavioural responses and the estimated number of people claiming pension credit in the upcoming years. I stress that if more people who are entitled to it claim pension credit, that is a good thing. It means that those people will get approaching £4,000 a year rather than or in addition to the winter fuel payment.

On the question of housing benefit, the judgment was made not to make housing benefit in itself a qualifying benefit, because it is based not only on financial circumstances but the amount of rent. As the noble Baroness will understand only too well, households that get housing benefit can go higher up the income distribution than those that get pension credit. That can be true even if they get the maximum, because of the way earned income is treated. We also have to take account of fairness between those who are renting and those who are paying mortgages. I presume that is why, when the previous Government did cost of living payments, they did not choose housing benefit as a qualifying benefit. I imagine it was for the same reasons.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, following the Minister’s reply, the Social Security Advisory Committee recommended that the Government consider bringing forward an urgent amendment to the regulations which would, for this year only, very modestly passport those in receipt of the full rate of pensioner housing benefit on to winter fuel payments. It is a very modest request. Will the Government take that advice?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I think I have answered the point about housing benefit and explained why the Government took the decision we did. However, we are determined to do everything we can, so we are directly contacting approximately 120,000 pensioner households that may be eligible for pension credit, to encourage them to make a claim. We are also writing to all pensioners to make sure they are aware of the changes coming forward and to link them to where they can claim pension credit if they are entitled to it.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

Will the Minister accept that the decision not to give money to people who do not need it was the right decision, and that to argue against it is not sensible? However, it is also true that the public has really not understood what this now means. The Government have to communicate much better than they are doing at the moment. It is wrong to attack the Government for the decision, but it is perfectly right to attack the Government for not putting that decision over in a way that people can understand.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, especially for the first half of that encouragement. The Government had to make some difficult choices. Deciding not to pay the winter fuel payment to people who do not need it was one of those choices. Inevitably, that causes some challenge and concern, particularly for those who are around the margins, as with any system of means testing. That has been challenging, but I take the advice of the noble Lord and we will look again to make sure that we are properly explaining to people what is happening and that those who need this most will still get help. I hope that they will not just get the help of the winter fuel payment, but potentially thousands of pounds in pension credit as well.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

Have the Government carried out any assessment of the differential impacts across the regions of England and the countries of the United Kingdom of this decision to axe winter fuel payments for most pensioners? There will be different impacts. Coming from Northern Ireland, we know some of the concerns there are, and the different levels of information that have been given out about people’s eligibility for pension credit and the campaign to encourage uptake.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, the situation is different in different parts of the country. In Scotland, it is complicated by the fact that this is the first year it is devolved, so we have had to legislate in a different way to enable us to do that for Scotland but not for elsewhere in the UK. The Government have sought to make sure, by writing, across the piece, to 12 million pensioners, that we are directly engaging and that people are as aware as possible. There are also campaigns going on with partners in local government and voluntary organisations, as well as a media campaign on radio, television and social media. I will certainly check, go back and review that, and if I have any concerns that it is not being done appropriately in some parts of the United Kingdom, I will very happily come back to the noble Lord.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

As my noble friend says—I will get it right this time—we now have the letter from the Secretary of State. I am sorry to have to press her on this, but the Government consistently fail to answer the first question raised by the committee. I asked the same question in a Written Question during the recess and, again, it was not answered. The committee wants to know,

“the offsetting cost of different levels of additional Pension Credit take-up”.

I too asked that question, and saying that the OBR has signed off the figures is not an answer.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I understand that the OBR listed certified costings if nobody claimed pension credit, and costings on the assumption, which was also our assumption, that there would be a five percentage-point increase in that. It seems to me that that gives the entire range, and between that, presumably one could do the sums. I think that that does answer the question.

Health-related Benefit Claims

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Tuesday 5th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hazarika]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have to deal with the rising cost of health-related benefit claims.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Sherlock) (Lab)]

My Lords, this Government are committed to supporting people into work, improving outcomes for all and ensuring long-term fiscal sustainability. Our plans as announced in the Budget include £240 million to tackle the root causes of inactivity through the “Get Britain Working” White Paper. In 2025 we will also bring forward proposals to reform health and disability benefits.

[Baroness Hazarika (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend the Minister for that Answer. Does she agree with me that whatever your politics, we should all care about helping more people back to work? It is good for the individual, the economy and the social security bill. Most people claiming health-related benefits are not feckless or lazy; they want to work but have often suffered bad luck, such as an accident or an illness. Has my noble friend seen the work of the Resolution Foundation, which highlights a particular concern with younger workers and mental health issues? Can she outline what the Government are doing to help our younger people get back to work?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend for some very good questions. Evidence shows that appropriate work is generally good for health and well- being, so we want everyone who can to get work and get on in work, whoever they are and wherever they live. But that means proper support for those who are living with health conditions or disabilities.

In relation to younger people, the Resolution Foundation report on this matter had some very interesting findings. One that struck me particularly was that young people who have lower skill levels are more likely to be workless as a result of health conditions than those with higher skill levels. That tallied with the evidence I have seen. Back in 2012, one in 13 of the young people who were not in education, employment or training reported a mental health problem. Now, it is one in five. We have a real challenge with young people and mental health.

We are doing two things: directly improving mental health support for young people in schools and in the community, and trying to do what we can to get them into work. The Budget money announced will help to establish eight youth guarantee trailblazer areas across England to test new ways of supporting young people into employment, training or apprenticeships, working with local suppliers. That will inform the development of a youth guarantee for all 18 to 21 year-olds.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

My Lords, I pick up the Minister’s reference to mental health. Some estimates suggest that up to two-thirds of those claiming incapacity benefits are doing so on the basis of mental health-related issues. Can the Minister tell us whether a focus on young people, in particular their use of things such as smartphones and social media, is being both researched and fed into the Government’s early intervention strategy?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, there certainly has been a growth both in the number of young people reporting mental health issues and in the number of people on sickness or disability benefits as a result of mental health issues—although, because the numbers still skew towards the older age, there are still more older people with mental health issues. However, we definitely have a challenge with young people and mental health issues.

If my department is doing any research on mobile phones, it has passed me by, but I will go back and ask that specifically. However, I am working with my colleagues in the Department for Education to look at the well-being of young people. For example, a children’s well-being Bill will put children’s well-being at the centre of their education. We are looking at providing every single school with a mental health professional who can work with young people. Outside that, we will have youth hubs, with drop-in services and mental health support. If we want our young people to go on to live fulfilling, thriving lives, we need to tackle this problem as early as possible and give them the help they need.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister believe that the reason for health-related benefits claims is the state of the health service, including people’s access to their GP for a face-to-face appointment? If we do not deal with that, we will not deal with health-related benefits. What are the Government doing to pursue those aims?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord points out another of the contributory factors. A complex web of things brings people to this point. As far as we understand it, a number of contributory factors are driving the rise in health-related benefits. Disability has gone up in prevalence over the last 25 years, including a rise in mental health issues. Also, longer NHS waiting lists are thought to increase claims for benefits before people are treated, because they are waiting longer, and potentially after they are treated, because they have poorer outcomes as a result of problems in the National Health Service.

This Government are absolutely committed to fixing our NHS. We have seen record investments, and the plans that came out in the Budget mean that we are absolutely committed both to engaging directly in supporting the NHS and to tackling some of these problems. As part of “Get Britain Working”, we will have trailblazer areas across England and Wales bringing together health, employment and skills services. In three of those areas, money will go to the NHS to develop evidence on how the health system can prevent ill-health-related economic activity. We are going to sort this.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I remain to be convinced that the measures the Government are taking to get more inactive people on benefits into work, including those with mental health challenges, will bear fruit—I hope that they will. I have lost count of the number of consultations that have been announced. Crucial for this is a willingness of employers to hire. Have the Government not made matters much worse with the rise in national insurance contributions for employers announced last week?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I ask the former Minister not to prejudge this—we have not even published the White Paper yet. He may not be convinced by it, but I hope to convince him yet. When it comes out, I will happily talk him through it as there are some excellent plans.

He raises an important point about employers. My department is doing a lot of work with them, and we have plans to do even more. If we are to get people into work—particularly people who have challenges, such as mental health issues or other barriers—we need to get the right people into the right jobs with the right support. Otherwise, the danger is that we get people into jobs but they fall back out of them and do not stay there. We are absolutely committed to working with employers, making sure that we can get employers the staff they need and people the jobs they need.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware of whether CAMHS are being properly financed?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, there is no doubt whatever that there are real problems with child and adolescent mental health services, but we will address them. In the meantime, we have plans in place to recruit another 8,500 mental health professionals to support both children and adults, and we will look carefully at that. We are very conscious that there is no point in identifying mental health problems if there is nowhere to refer young people when they need help.

[Lord Turnberg (Lab)]

My Lords, the most effective treatment for mental illness is cognitive behavioural therapy. It works very well and has been shown to save money because it is quick and effective. It requires clinical psychologists. Do we have enough of them, and what are we doing to fill the gap?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

Honestly, I have no idea—but I have colleagues in the Department of Health who will. As a Government, we are developing significant extra support and making sure that there is an NHS fit for the future, including by providing appropriate support. I am afraid that I will have to find someone to write to my noble friend about the number of CBT therapists.

[Baroness Fraser of Craigmaddie (Con)]

My Lords, many schemes have been getting people on benefits into work, but research shows that one of the biggest challenges is keeping people in work and enabling them to move on to a second, third or fourth job and a career. What are the Government doing to support keeping people in work?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

What a great question. We are absolutely committed to this being a strategy not just to get people into jobs but to get people into good jobs, to keep them there and to help them progress over time. The focus of the “Get Britain Working” White Paper will be on that. In this country we need good jobs and we need people to get them. They need to be given the support to get there—and continuing support, if they need it, while they are there—and then to have the ability to progress. Our three-part scheme will not just include the youth guarantee but bring together the national jobs and careers service as well as skills and help-at-work support. It is all about trying to get people in jobs and make sure that they progress when they are there. I thank the noble Baroness for asking a great question.

[Baroness Winterton of Doncaster (Lab)]

My Lords, following the important points that my noble friend Lady Hazarika made about young people with mental health problems, and the point that was made about CAMHS, does the Minister agree that there needs to be a seamless transition between CAMHS and adult mental health services if we are to end fragmentation and help young people with mental health problems back into work? Will she emphasise that to the Department of Health?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My noble friend makes an excellent point. I am sure that many noble Lords will have heard cases of individuals who found that they were getting appropriate support sometimes when they were children but then found the transition to adult mental health services problematic afterwards. The NHS, as well as investing in support for young people, is investing in mental health care, but I will make sure that specific point is conveyed to my colleagues in the Department of Health.

Pension Credit

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Monday 4th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stedman-Scott]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure every pensioner who is eligible for Pension Credit receives it.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Sherlock) (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government want all eligible pensioners to apply for pension credit. The Government have written to pensioners providing advice about claiming pension credit following the change to the winter fuel payment, alongside a range of other creative media campaigns. We are engaging directly with pensioners as well as with stakeholders, including devolved Governments, councils and charities, in a joint effort to raise awareness through our combined networks and channels.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

I say to the noble Lord: feel free. Having run a pension credit campaign, I can understand what the Minister is undertaking. Do the Government intend to guarantee that the DWP has the capacity to deal with what could well be a rapid uptake of applications for pension credit—with all the extra administration needed to process the claims —after this Government’s shameful decision to deprive pensioners who need it most of their winter fuel payment?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, on that final point, which, obviously, I cannot let go, the poorest pensioners are protected because those on pension credit will still have access to the winter fuel payment.

On the bulk of the noble Baroness’s question, we continue to operate good service levels. Around 500 additional staff have now been brought in to support processing during the recent surge in pension credit claims. Processing times may increase; we have advised customers who apply that it could take nine weeks to process their claims. However, anyone who applies before the deadline of 21 December can have their application backdated, which means not only that they will get winter fuel payments but that they may well get pension credit on top of that.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, I compliment the Minister on the work being done to make people claim pension credit they should have claimed before, in order to try to make up for the rather strange removal of the winter fuel allowance. Can she tell the House when—if we have not reached this point already—the amount of pension credit that was not being claimed before is going to exceed the amount notionally saved from the winter fuel allowance? If that point has not yet been reached, when will it be reached?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I was so with the noble Lord for the first 20 seconds—all the way. I am grateful for his congratulations to the department, and I shall take them back to my colleagues, who are doing a brilliant job on this front. We have written to around 12 million pensioners about the change to the winter fuel allowance, so a lot of work has been done out there to encourage people to apply—and it is having an effect. We have seen a 152% increase in pension credit claims received by the DWP in the eight weeks following the announcement on the winter fuel payment compared to the eight weeks before, and that will be updated towards the end of the month.

On the costs at the end, obviously, a lot of these claims have to be processed and we will not know for some time down the road. However, it is very clear that the DWP wants everybody who is eligible to do so to claim pension credit. As I have said before, if we end up with more people claiming the money to which they are entitled, that is a good thing. Pensioners deserve the money to which they are entitled.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

My Lords, I apologise to the House and to the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, for jumping in too quickly. My noble friend the Minister gave the figure of 500 additional staff in an Answer to a Written Question from me earlier in the Session. What was not clear from her reply was when the 500 extra staff would be in post and fully trained to provide the service required to achieve the take-up of pension credit that we all want to see.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

As I understand it, the staff are mainly being redeployed from within retirement services and the DWP. It is not uncommon for staff to get moved around to different areas of the department as the need moves and flows during the year. Some of those are already in place, and some are going straight in because they are already experienced in dealing with pension credit and need no training. Others who need specific training on dealing with those claims are being moved across—but we are already doing this.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree with me that it is hard to take lessons from the Opposition, who in government oversaw the biggest increase in poverty and homelessness—and then they have the cheek to lecture this side about poverty?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, it is true that the last Labour Government lifted more than 1 million pensioners out of poverty and that the number of pensioners in relative poverty has increased by around 300,000 since 2010-11. However, on the pension credit, I think we are all of one mind. We want to encourage everybody out there who is eligible for pension credit to claim the money and claim it as soon as possible. Please put the word out.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

Is the Minister aware that we are dealing with some really quite elderly people? Therefore, the response, in terms of their ability to go online, for example, is likely to be very low, so why on earth are we establishing a terminal date of 21 December? Secondly, am I right in understanding from the Minister that we are taking on 500 extra civil servants to handle this demand? Is that not a complete farce, when really it would have been much simpler to leave the winter fuel allowance where it was for all our pensioners, all of whom have paid taxes over the years—and many of those families have lost loved ones in the Second World War and the subsequent Korean War?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord if I was not clear in my last answer—I acknowledge that I speak too quickly on occasion. Many of those 500 staff are being redeployed from within the department. It is not unusual for people to move to different areas of the Department for Work and Pensions, moving on to campaigns as needed. The noble Lord is absolutely right, and of course, there is a very wide range of pensioners. There are many in this Chamber who may technically be of state pension age but who are highly computer literate and more than able to use the online campaigns. The online form is incredibly simple: if somebody applies online, the maximum number of questions they will have to answer is 48, and for some it is as few as 35.

[A noble Lord]

That is still a lot.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

It is a lot, but they include “name” and “date of birth”, so give us a bit of a break here. That said, there are days, I acknowledge, when some of these are beyond me. The great thing is that if you phone the helpline, it is equivalent to doing it online, because the person at the other end is putting the stuff in for you. If you do not want to do computers, you can phone and someone will take you through it. The satisfaction rates are very high. Finally, those who are really struggling can apply with the help of somebody from DWP or from a charity. In extreme cases, someone from DWP will even visit people at home. We will do what it takes to get people to apply for the money to which they are entitled.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Palmer did not get an answer to his very legitimate question on when the cost of the claims for pension credit that we hope will be made will cancel out the saving from the winter fuel payment, factoring in the 500 extra staff in particular. It is fair to ask that question and to wonder whether there is a bit of conflict of interest here: if lots more people apply for pension credit, the £1.5 billion saving that has been headlined disappears.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, when the costings on this policy were done, the Explanatory Memorandum made it clear that the expectation was that it would save £1.3 billion in this financial year and £1.5 billion a year after that. That saving was on the assumption that pension credit would increase by five full percentage points, and it was net of any other DWP benefits that might go with that. Until we exceed that point, the savings are still there. We will not know where this lands until all the claims are in and processed. I simply say, finally, that I want everybody who is eligible for this to claim it. If we end up with more people getting not just the winter fuel payment but the pension credit, that can be worth an awful lot of money. The average pension credit award for a single pensioner is around £72 a week. This is worth having.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness will be aware that these matters are devolved to the Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive, but we are affected as much as any other part of the UK by the cuts to the winter fuel allowance and short uptake of the pension credit. What has been done to liaise with the Northern Ireland Executive to ensure that pensioners in Northern Ireland will have the same advancements, encouragements and incentives to apply for pension credit?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, my department is working very closely with the devolved Administrations, including with colleagues in Northern Ireland, to make sure that campaigns for take-up are out there. However, the core issues around, for example, state pension are reserved.

Food Banks

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Thursday 31st October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kingsmill]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to eliminate the need for food banks.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Sherlock) (Lab)]

My Lords, this Government are committed to reducing mass dependence on emergency food parcels. Tackling poverty and getting Britain working will be the foundation of our approach. The Child Poverty Taskforce will publish a UK-wide strategy in the spring, and we will soon publish a White Paper setting out our plans to reform employment support to help people enter work, and stay and progress in it.

[Baroness Kingsmill (Lab)]

Does the Minister agree that the very existence of food banks in the UK is shameful? Notwithstanding our admiration for the amazing efforts of the thousands of volunteers around the country in community groups, schools and churches and their efforts to tackle food poverty, it is nevertheless shocking to learn that there are nearly 3,000 food banks in this country. Special thanks must go to the Trussell Trust, which operates 1,400 of them. Hungry families should not have to rely on charity to feed their children in one of the richest countries in the world. It is the political choices made over the past 14 years that have caused this. What choices will the Government now make to eliminate the need for food banks?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend for raising this extremely important issue. I join her in paying tribute to the Trussell Trust and to the many community and faith groups that run food banks. I have seen them in churches, mosques and community centres, and it is wonderful that people volunteer. However, like her, I am concerned that they have gone from something at the margins to help someone when they run into trouble, to mass dependence and an integrated part of the system. Something has gone wrong in recent years that we now see 2.3 million people living in households where a food bank was used in the last 12 months. We are committed to ending mass dependence on emergency food banks.

My noble friend talked about families with children. The Secretary of State made this one of her early priorities. She gathered around her a food poverty round table with experts and charities. She has a child poverty strategy, which will be produced in the spring. In the meantime, as a down payment, the Budget yesterday announced additional help for those struggling with debt and for carers. We will offer free breakfast clubs in primary schools. We are getting in and doing things at the start, but above all we need to make sure the system works for families, and we will.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, does the Minister not share my concern that the need for food banks might actually grow in the coming months? There has been a bad harvest and we produce only 16% of our own fruit and vegetables. Food prices are going up and the Budget yesterday will impact negatively on farmers. What does she propose to do to reduce the dependence on food banks, rather than increase it?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, what we are going to do is to support families. People should be able to support their own families, but research has found that if you look at households where somebody had used a food bank in the previous 12 months, 40% of those people are in jobs. Working people should be able to go to work and bring home enough money to feed themselves and their families so, for a start, the Government have just made a significant announcement about an increase to the national living wage. We have a plan to make sure that work pays so that people get into decent jobs and keep them, bringing home enough money to support their families. In the short term, we will make a real difference: free breakfast clubs in every primary school mean that children will not be hungry there. That helps the children and takes a big pressure off their families.

[Baroness O'Loan (CB)]

My Lords, despite everything that the Minister has said about the Budget yesterday, it is being widely reported that it will lead to lower incomes for people generally. Does she think that this will assist in reducing the numbers reliant on food banks, or will it inevitably end in an increase in those who have to rely on them?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, the strategy came through loud and clear in my right honourable friend Rachel Reeves’s Budget yesterday. We have to get this country back to work and get it growing. If we are to reach a point where we can not only repair the damage done to our public services but rebuild our country, we have to make it work. The foundations were laid really well and clearly in the Budget yesterday. The Government have a plan to make work pay. We have a White Paper coming out on that and are reforming the whole of employment support. We want people to be able to get into jobs, keep them and progress in them—not just to make a difference to themselves but to rebuild our country.

[Baroness Janke (LD)]

My Lords, to pay for the Government’s healthy eating recommendations, the poorest 10% of UK households would need to spend 74% of their post-housing disposable income on food. The consideration of healthy eating is not a factor in calculating benefit rates. Do the Government believe that the poorest and most vulnerable people should have access to healthy food and, if so, how will calculations about benefits in the future reflect this?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I absolutely agree about the importance of access to healthy food and there are schemes out there to help the lowest-income families access it, particularly pregnant women and the parents of younger children. Having been asked by a noble Baroness previously about breakfast clubs in primary schools, I went off to check and discovered that they are to be covered by the school standards for food, so we will make sure that there are nutritious breakfasts there. But in the end the noble Baroness, Lady Janke, raises a really important point: we have to tackle the child poverty at the root of this if families are to be able to feed their kids appropriately. That brings us back again to the child property strategy but I am delighted that, in the short term, there were some down payments. One small thing, which will not have gone widely noticed, is that we will introduce a fair repayment rate for universal credit. It sounds really technical but reduces the total cap on deductions from universal credit from 25% to 15%. That means that 1.2 million of the poorest households have £420 a year more to spend, which makes a real difference.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, compared to pre-Covid times, when people tended to visit a food bank for emergency purposes—as a result of a home emergency—there is anecdotal evidence, as I am sure the noble Baroness is aware, that visits per head are more sustained and that the needs of those visitors are more varied. It is not just about poverty. It is about rising cases of mental health and domestic abuse, so what are the Government doing to help food bank volunteers to cope and to spot these signs in customers?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, our local jobcentres are doing very good work, as I am sure the noble Viscount will know from his time doing my job. There are incredibly good arrangements, including partnership schemes to engage with all kinds of local charities to make the connections, but the most important thing is to have somewhere to refer people to. I am afraid that our mental health service has been in such decline that, even if problems are identified, it is quite hard for volunteers to know where people can go. This Government are committed to restoring our mental health support and investing in child and adolescent mental health. As a down payment on that, we will recruit another 8,500 mental health professionals to work with children and adults. I am really grateful to the noble Viscount for raising that really important point.

[Lord Sahota (Lab)]

My Lords, before I ask my question, can I wish all noble Lords a happy Diwali? When all food banks are eliminated, do the Government have any plan for what will happen to all the surplus food that has been donated by the supermarkets and other retailers over time to them?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, obviously I dream of that day. I have visited a fascinating place in the north-east called REfUSE, based in Chester-le-Street in County Durham. It gets free food and has people, as either volunteers or staff, who can help to create meals where people then pay what they can afford. It has branched out from that to start doing catering for events, such as weddings. This does a couple of things. It raises awareness of the tragedy of food waste, while showing how we can reuse things creatively to produce brilliant food; it also helps all of us to think better. If we do not want to end up with food shortages, we all need to get better at reusing and recycling, and buying well in the first place.

[Baroness Boycott (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as the chair of Feeding Britain. The Minister has just outlined one of our social supermarkets, which are a bridge between a food bank and getting people back into normal eating and being able to afford food. We sell surplus and waste food for about 30p in the pound with people joining a club depending on their status, area and income. They are taught to cook and allowed to shop with honour, and our cafes become self-sustaining after the initial costs of setting up. Will she agree to meet us or to come and visit some of our supermarkets? I can see that she has already visited one. They are a way forward, whereas the food bank is a way back.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, they both have their place, at least at the moment, but I would be very happy to visit. I have visited other such things but I am always interested in the creativity behind this. I have visited a brilliant one over in Waterloo, run by Oasis and the Catholic Church. It was fascinating that they were able to engage with and provide support to people who came in, finding out their problems and dealing with them at the root. But there was also a pantry, and somebody proudly told me how he could not only go and get food from it but had been able to cook dinner and invite his neighbours in. That is a wonderful thing to do; it tackles isolation and gives him the opportunity to give something out to others and to learn along the way. It is brilliant and I commend the noble Baroness for her work on this.

Pensioners: Winter Support

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Tuesday 29th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Sherlock) (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government are committed to ensuring that pensioners remain safe and healthy throughout the winter months. Thanks to the triple lock, most pensioners will see their state pension rise by over £1,000 during this Parliament. The lowest-income pensioners are entitled to pension credit, and winter fuel and cold weather payments to assist with heating and other costs. Additionally, all pensioners benefit from free flu jabs, transport concessions and community programmes to support mental well-being.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

That is all very well, but I want to raise a particular concern about pensioners living in rural and coastal communities. As the Minister may be aware, Age UK and Public Health England have been working in tandem to explore and understand the underlying issues, including loneliness, the digital divide, lack of support networks, poor house insulation and gaps in transport links, with attendant increased living costs. The withdrawal of the winter fuel allowance is a major blow to thousands of pensioners, many of whom are simply not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination. What are the Government doing to ensure place-based financial support for those in this category, also bearing in mind energy costs rising in advance of this winter?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, on energy costs, the price cap has risen this year compared to last year, as the noble Viscount will know. However, it is £117 lower than it was last winter and the state pension, as he also knows, is £900 higher. I want to get the message out to pensioners that things may have gone up recently, but they are a lot lower than they were last year.

For rural or off-grid pensioners, energy support is provided by local authorities, DESNZ and devolved Governments. We are encouraging energy suppliers to do all that they can. The noble Viscount may know that the warm home discount is available to eligible low-income households, and the key thing is that it is paid through their electricity bill, so they do not have to be connected to the gas supply to get that help. There is even a specific scheme to support people who live in park homes to apply. There is also a home upgrade grant that provides grants for low-income households to upgrade the energy performance of the worst-quality off-grid gas homes in England by installing energy-efficiency measures and low-carbon heating.

On the broader point about placed-based support, the noble Viscount will know that the Government found the money to extend the household support fund for a further six months, so I would encourage any person in this situation to go to their local authority for local help.

[Baroness Seccombe (Con)]

My Lords, can the Minister update the House on the number of people on pension credit today?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

Approximately 1.4 million pensioner households receive pension credit. We received around 74,400 pension credit claims in the eight weeks following the announcement about the winter fuel payment on 29 July—which is probably what has triggered the noble Baroness’s question. In the eight weeks after the announcement, there were 74,400 applications, while in the eight weeks before it, there were 29,500. That represents a 152% increase in pension credit claims received over that period. That period finished in the week starting 16 September, so more have come in since then and more will come in between now and the deadline of 21 December for when people can apply and still have their winter fuel payment backdated for this year.

[Baroness Janke (LD)]

A large majority of low-income pensioners are not on pension credit and therefore will lose the winter fuel payment, although they are living below the poverty line. What emergency measures have been put in place to support those pensioners? What are the Government doing to refine their targeting policies to make sure that full winter fuel support goes to all poor pensioners who are desperately in need of it?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, the first thing would I mention once again is the household support fund. That is £421 million provided specifically for local authorities to support those in need, especially with the cost of living, such as food and fuel, so that is somewhere for people to go. We realise there is still a significant number of people who could claim pension credit, and if they get pension credit, they will get the winter fuel payment. It also opens up a gateway to other potential support with rent or council tax and passporting to a range of other benefits. We are running a campaign, and we will shortly be writing to 12 million pensioners. We will soon be writing also to 120,000 pensioners who get housing benefit who we think might be entitled to pension credit as well, so we are doing huge amount to make sure all that those in that space can claim it. The final point is that there are two bits to pension credit. The main bit tops up income to a certain level. There is also the savings guarantee, so people who have more savings and may think that they are not entitled to the slightly higher income could still be entitled to some pension credit. If they get any at all, they get the winter fuel payment, so please spread the word.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

It is not sensible to pay taxpayers’ money to people who do not need it—the Government are right on that. My worry is simply that those who apply for pension credit appear in many cases to find the bureaucracy difficult and not quick enough to deliver. Will the Minister assure the House that she will make sure that everybody who applies will get this in time and without bureaucratic delay?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

On bureaucracy, 80% of people now apply for pension credit online. You can apply online, on the phone or on paper, or you can get help from the DWP or a third-party organisation, but 80% apply online. That is by far the simplest and quickest way to do it, not least because you end up answering, at most, 48 questions and sometimes only 35, because lots of things you do not have to go through are taken out. That might seem like a lot, but it really is not—the experience people have is fairly straightforward. If you do not like doing it online, you can phone up and that is the equivalent, because the person on the other end just does it for you—you are on the phone and they are entering all the details. Some weeks, only 5% of people apply on paper.

On how long it takes to process it, as we are expecting an influx of applications, we have redeployed another 500 staff to work on processing. We know that there will be slightly longer times and are warning people who apply that it could take up to nine weeks, but I assure the House that if anyone applies in time, they will get the money. If that means that for a small number of people there will be a cashflow issue, I encourage them go to their local authority to apply to the household support fund to tide them over that gap.

[Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I encourage the Minister to recognise that the winter fuel payments are being taken away from the very poorest pensioners. Those on pension credit are not the poorest; those who are entitled to it and will eventually receive it will also not be the poorest because they will get thousands of pounds extra, including winter fuel payments. Those slightly above that—it is estimated there could be 1 or 2 million—have no means of receiving the money that they will need this winter. There is no protection for them. The Minister talks about the reduction in fuel costs. Last winter and the one before, those pensioners received one-off cost of living payments. With a Budget tomorrow, it may not be too late to recognise that this is a mistake; it is going to cause serious harm to a number of pensioners and cost the Government and the NHS significant sums.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, nobody went out thinking that this is where we would like to be, but the noble Baroness knows very well the economic situation that we inherited, and she will know exactly why it was necessary to save money in year. I remind the noble Baroness that, by definition, the poorest pensioners are getting the support they need provided they apply; we will make it as easy as possible for them to do that. For everybody else, the Government have committed to sticking to the triple lock for this Parliament. That means that somebody on the new state pension will find that, over this Parliament, the value of that state pension will rise by £1,700, and the value of even the basic state pension will rise by £1,300. That is where the huge extra support will come from for the pensioners that she is talking about.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, with reference to the triple lock, my noble friend the Minister will be aware that a number of charities have been calling for a double lock on benefits for children; that is, that they should uprated in line with either earnings or prices. Given this Government’s commitment to putting children at the heart of policy-making, might this be considered for the future?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, obviously the noble Baroness will not expect me to comment on the Budget, or I would be back asking questions rather than answering them as quick as she can say “Chief Whip”. She will be aware that the work of the child poverty commission to develop a strategy will involve looking in the round at the challenge of child poverty in our country, including social security systems. It will be looked at in that context.

[Baroness Foster of Oxton (Con)]

My Lords, to add to what my noble friend said regarding the levels of income that pensioners receive, the top rate for the state pension is £11,502. My neighbour has that amount. She is not eligible for pension credit. Can the Minister tell me whether she could she manage on £11,502 per year, and would £200 or £300 make a difference?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, of course, I recognise that there is a challenge out there for many older people who are struggling with the cost of living; I totally understand that. I also know that the noble Baroness’s neighbour is in a position where, a year ago, her pension was worth £900 less. The point I want to insist on is that, at a time of enormous financial constraint in the country, this Government are committed to putting in the money to maintain the triple lock throughout this Parliament. I am not saying that this is easy; I am saying that we have made a significant commitment, and we are going to stick to it.

Employment, Education and Training: Young People

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Tuesday 29th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Newcastle]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to reduce the number of young people not in employment, education, or training.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Sherlock) (Lab)]

My Lords, this Government are fully committed to supporting our young people through the universal credit youth offer, and have invested £7 billion to ensure places in educational training for every 16 to 18 year-old. We plan to improve opportunities for 18 to 21 year-olds through a new youth guarantee, offering training, apprenticeships and support into employment, alongside launching Skills England and a new national jobs and careers service.

[The Lord Bishop of Newcastle]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her Answer. The north-east has the highest proportion of young people not in education, employment or training at 15%. What steps are His Majesty’s Government taking to offer targeted support to young people in regions of greater disadvantage?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, the right reverend Prelate is right to highlight both the regional differences and the correlation with disadvantage in identifying levels of young people not in education, employment or training—or NEETs, as they are rather horribly known. The problem needs early intervention and targeting. The Department for Education is supporting local authorities to identify young people who are at risk of becoming NEET, so that they can be supported to stay in education and training in the first place. My own department, DWP, is reforming careers support and introducing a youth guarantee so that, right across England, every young person, from 18 to 21, has the option of apprenticeships, employment or quality training. We have also convened a small advisory group, including the mayoral combined authorities, local councils and others to make sure that we pursue a mission to reduce the number of young people who are NEET in a targeted way.

[Baroness Benjamin (LD)]

My Lords, the charity First Star Scholars—I declare an interest as patron—works with children in care and has a success rate of over 72% of them obtaining GCSEs and 50% attending university. Care-experienced children usually under- perform, with less than 20% achieving GCSEs and just 6% progressing to university. Will the Government agree to meet with me and First Star Scholars to address this so-called care cliff to help reduce the number of care leavers not in education, employment or training and enhance educational outcomes for these vulnerable young people?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for raising such an incredibly important point. I have the pleasure of having responsibility in my department for disadvantaged groups including care leavers, and I would be delighted to meet her and talk about this further. For a brief outline, here are some of the things the DWP does to support care leavers in different ways: they get priority access to universal credit and budgeting support and help; care leavers in staying-put arrangements can claim benefits under their own steam until 21 in many cases; and, crucially, we have a second-chance learning scheme, which means that if you are 18 to 21 and a care leaver, you can claim benefits and still study full-time to catch up on education you may have missed earlier. There is a lot more, which I cannot wait to tell her about. I look forward to meeting her.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, we are aware of the numbers, and the Minister is suggesting some action, but can she say how much research is being carried out to find out why NEETs are NEETs? What encouragement are the Government giving to such research?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

What a great question. It is really interesting. Some people are NEET for short periods, but we know that vulnerable and disadvantaged young people can be NEET for much longer periods and may have complex needs. Some young people are overrepresented in the long-term NEET group, including people with low educational attainment; children who are looked after, as I was discussing just now; children who are permanently excluded, or in PRUs or alternative provision; those with health conditions; and those with special educational needs and/or disabilities. We are trying to attach each of these things separately, as well as looking at this as a category.

[Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)]

My Lords, has my noble friend the Minister looked at other exciting things going on to try to get hold of these young people and make sure they get some training? Has she seen the examples of the professional league football teams that provide just this? They provide schooling and proper education and, alongside that, allow the young people—mainly young men, but also women—to come along and do some training with professional footballers. This has been very successful in places in the north, such as at Carlisle United, where we have a very successful scheme.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I have not thought about it from that angle, but it is really interesting. I wonder whether it may be necessary for me to go and look more closely at what is happening. Do they do it for cricket as well? If so, I am definitely interested.

[Baroness Redfern (Con)]

My Lords, the first secure school opened in May this year, with a new holistic offer for youth justice. It is designed to shift settings away from punishment and towards rehabilitation. What allocated support will be given to pupils and their families in the next stage of their lives after leaving?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

From my department’s point of view, we work quite closely with those who have been through the criminal justice system. For example, we have prison work coaches who can work inside not just prisons but young offender institutions, and we are working quite closely with colleagues in the Ministry of Justice to try to make sure we can address the reasons young people end up going through the criminal justice system and then come out the other side and find it difficult to get into education, employment or training. If there is anything specific that she thinks we can learn from that, I would be grateful to hear more.

[Baroness Bull (CB)]

My Lords, young people experiencing homelessness experience unique barriers to entering the workforce. Apparently, 43% of young people who are homeless have had to turn down work because of the impact it would have on their benefits. Does the Minister recognise the challenges for this part of the community, and what are the Government doing to ensure that people who are experiencing homelessness can enter the workforce?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

We are looking very closely at these issues—I also have responsibility in my department for people who are experiencing homelessness. We are doing a number of things in this space, and I recognise the problem the noble Baroness describes. I have recently met some of the charities working on this, looking at some of the interesting solutions that they have been offering in supported housing. From the other side, we were one of the departments that helped launch a new homelessness covenant for employers. I recently went to an event to celebrate its first year of operation, and it was brilliant to hear employers talking about what they got out of it, not just recruiting young people who are themselves homeless but understanding that, in many cases in their own workforce, people were at risk of homelessness, had experience of homelessness or were in very precarious situations. We all have a lot to learn about the range of experience that young people have in that space and what more we can do about it. I thank the noble Baroness for raising the question.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, the Youth Futures Foundation—an independent not-for-profit organisation—calls the number of NEETs a “crisis”. As we know, 66% fall into the economically inactive category. I acknowledge the need for better mental health support, but the head of the Government’s new Labour Market Advisory Board, who advocated for

“quicker, clearer and more effective”

sanctions in his advisory role prior to 2010, now suggests a universal income for those out of work and states that sanctions are not a priority. Can the Minister explain what is going on? Is this official Labour policy?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I am not sure who the noble Viscount is talking about but, if he would like to speak to me afterwards, I am very happy to look into it. We want to try to reform support to make sure that every young person has the opportunity of either quality training, quality education or a job. That is our priority and that is what people need. Young people want to have a future and to get on in life, but they have to be given all the support they need to get to that point. We have a crisis among the young. We should not have as many young people between 18 and 24 not in employment, education or training as we have. This Government are determined to reduce that number.

[Lord Allen of Kensington (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the action the Government are taking. Does the Minister agree with me that employers can take a more active role in recruiting young people who are in danger of being not in education, employment or training for life —like her, I hate the phrase NEETs—into earn and learn opportunities such as apprenticeships and graduate training programmes? Will she join with me in encouraging more employers to sign up to schemes such as the incredible 5% Club, which now has 1,100 members and is employing 100,000 employees in earn and learn roles, harnessing their incredible talent to increase productivity and growth?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

The noble Lord makes an excellent point and I thank him for flagging up the 5% Club to me. I am happy to commend the work that it does, and I will make sure I share information about the club with my DfE colleagues.

On the broader point, the Government are encouraging employers to hire apprentices and host T-level placements, but also to develop closer ties with colleges and universities and to strengthen their links with, and have input into, local skills improvement plans. The noble Lord might be interested to know that we have begun work on a new foundation apprenticeship. The idea is to give more young people a foot in the door—it is a pre-apprenticeship apprenticeship, if you like—and to create clear pathways into work-based training and employment. Again, that is the first step on the way to a youth guarantee of a promise of educational training or a job for young people across the country.