State Pension: Age Increase

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Thursday 14th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Brixton]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what preparations they are making to inform people born on or after 6 April 1960 about the increase in their state pension age from 66 to 67 which will be implemented over the period 6 April 2026 to 5 April 2028.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Sherlock) (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government recognise that information about the state pension age is crucial to retirement planning and are committed to communicating planned state pension age changes effectively. The department undertakes a range of activities, including awareness campaigns, digital tools such as “Check your State Pension age” and sending personalised letters. We are developing our strategy to communicate information and assessing the most effective ways to raise awareness about state pension age changes.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend for her Answer. I remain concerned that we are only 17 months away from when people discover that they are not able to retire at the date that they thought they would. We know where this ends up: a finding of maladministration by the ombudsman and mass discontent. I urge the noble Lord, the noble Minister, the Baroness, to make sure that a mass campaign is initiated soon. Many people have an aversion to opening brown envelopes; we need this to be highlighted in the press for the next 17 months.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I answer to anything really. The Government have already used an array of methods to communicate state pension age changes, including leaflets, advertising campaigns, digital tools and directly writing to everybody affected. Between December 2016 and May 2018, DWP wrote to all those in the group my noble friend is talking about—that is, those born between 6 April 1960 and 5 April 1961, which includes me—who have state pension ages between 66 and 67. In 2016, DWP launched a tool “Check your State Pension age” on GOV.UK and also “Check your State Pension forecast”. More than 31 million digital forecasts have been done plus another 1.5 million paper forecasts. I think it is working. The 2021 Planning and Preparing for Later Life survey talked to exactly those people and found that, of those with a pension age between 66 and 67, 94% either correctly identified their state pension age or overestimated it.

[Baroness Meacher (CB)]

My Lords, with the increase in life expectancy in recent years, will the Government consider increasing the state pension age by more than one year in order to limit the tax burden on those of working age?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, life expectancy is increasing, but the rate of increase is slowing. Built into the Pensions Act 2014 is a requirement on the Secretary of State periodically to review the state pension age, taking into account life expectancy and a range of other appropriate factors. There have already been two of those reviews. The next one has to happen by March 2029, I think. I have no doubt that the Secretary of State will take account of precisely those matters.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that we do not want a repeat of the WASPI women scandal? We have been here before. If individuals are not properly informed about the change to their state pension age, will the Government consider introducing a clear appeals process or a safety net to ensure that no one is financially disadvantaged due to a lack of information? From past experience, we know that there will be many people who fall through the net, and we need to have an appeals process in place.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, it is crucial that everybody gets to know their state pension age, but the reality is that there are a lot of different ways in which people do that. I already knew that my state pension age was increasing. A lot of that was simply from information in the news and on television. One of the ironies is that, when I was first briefed about this, I was told that the department had written to everybody in that age category. I said that I had no recollection of receiving such a letter, but I was assured that it had happened. Last weekend, I moved house and, when I opened a folder of unfiled papers, what was sitting on the top but a letter dated February 2018 telling me that my state pension age would be 66 and two-thirds. The point is that different people receive information differently. I am of an age where I get most of my information on my phone, from which I am rarely parted, and from news consumption. We have to use every possible means of communicating to make sure that people get the information out there.

[Baroness Bryan of Partick (Lab)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that average life expectancy is highly variable depending on many factors, including class? There are parts of Glasgow where people die in large numbers before their pension age, so I hope the Minister can reassure me that the idea of extending it will not be adopted when the people who suffer most are those who need the pension most.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My noble friend raises an important point. One of the requirements on the Secretary of State when she comes to do the statutory review of the state pension age is to look at issues such as life expectancy. Every now and again, someone comes up with the idea of varying the state pension age by, for example, location or profession. The reality is that, whereas there are differences between regions or professions, in some cases the differences within them are as great as or greater than the differences between them, so trying to find a way of doing something that would be fair, other than a simple state pension age, is challenging. The real challenge for this Government, as for everyone, is that we should not have these regional variations in our country. We are one country, and we should be tackling those kinds of regional inequalities so that we do not end up in this position.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not the case that we should move to when people start paying national insurance? People often start work at 16 in construction and other jobs, while others do not start work until 23 or 24. Should there not be some understanding about the different types of people, how long they are in work and what jobs they do?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

There are variations. One of the challenges is that, now we want to keep young people in education, training or employment until 18, we find that fewer people leave school and start work early. My noble friend is raising an underlying point that is really about fairness. We want to see everybody having the opportunity to study for as long as is genuinely helpful and suits them, then to move into fulfilling work and to be able to progress in it over time. I return to one of the challenges. The Secretary of State will consider all factors, but if we look at how difficult it is—and we know how hard we have had to work—to communicate a single state pension age, trying to communicate variable state pensions ages risks complicating it. But my noble friend raises an important point, and we will keep it under consideration.

[Lord Evans of Rainow (Con)]

My Lords, the Chancellor has announced that she is going to merge 86 public sector pension funds into eight megafunds. We have been talking about that for quite a long time. Will the Minister update the House on how and when that will happen?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, information will be coming forward. We are doing a pension review at the moment. Stage 1 is coming to an end and stage 2 is coming through. There is also a pensions Bill coming through, and when that comes through, all the details will be made available.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

My Lords, why is it that those who are above the state pension age, whatever age it is, and still working and contributing to society are not required to pay national insurance? We are missing £1 billion-plus to the Treasury. National insurance is a tax; it does not pay for anything. It should be paid by all those who are working, irrespective of age.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, of all the weeks when I am not going to start making up national insurance policy on the hoof, this is most definitely one of them. However, I hear what my noble friend says, and I will pass that along.

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

My Lords, what assessment have the Government made of the impact on employment, particularly for older people, of increasing NI contributions for employers, bearing in mind that the winter fuel payment has been withdrawn?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, to separate those two out, the Treasury has published documentation on GOV.UK relating to the Budget and an impact assessment of different aspects of the Budget. On the question of the winter fuel payment, the noble Baroness will know that the vast majority of people who will be entitled to it are being encouraged, if necessary, to apply for pension credit or other benefits. For most of the rest, many of them will not be in employment and will not intend to be in employment. The winter fuel payment is aimed at people of pension age, so I do not see the connection between the winter fuel payment and national insurance, but if the noble Baroness wants to speak to me about it afterwards, I am happy to talk to her.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that one of the best ways to get these kinds of messages over to older people is through the network of voluntary organisations, particularly Age UK, Age Scotland, Age Cymru and Age Northern Ireland? Will she and her department mobilise that network to get this message across?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My noble friend is a great advocate for Age UK and its counterpart organisations, and they welcome his advocacy. We have a good relationship with Age UK and other charities in this sphere. They have been very effective at getting messages out, but I come back to the fact that we have to get messages out across the piece. Messaging about the state pension age is aimed at people who are not yet retired, including me, so we need to get messages out everywhere people get their information. One of the ways of doing that is through family and friends—spread the word. Please make sure that everyone is aware of this: go on GOV.UK to “Check your State Pension age” and “Check your State Pension forecast”.

Social Security Advisory Committee: Winter Fuel Payment

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Thursday 14th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Sherlock) (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her question. I am sure she is aware that the Secretary of State has replied to the Social Security Advisory Committee and has placed a copy of that on GOV.UK. She has gone through all the points raised by the SSAC and responded to them in detail, so I commend that to the noble Baroness. If noble Lords would like to ask any questions, I am happy to respond to them specifically. The department has a good working relationship with the SSAC. We welcome its observations and comments, and we always listen to the points it makes. It will be no different on this occasion.

The noble Baroness raised questions of housing benefits and costings. Final costings for the changes were certified and published by the OBR at the Autumn Budget and take account of any behavioural responses and the estimated number of people claiming pension credit in the upcoming years. I stress that if more people who are entitled to it claim pension credit, that is a good thing. It means that those people will get approaching £4,000 a year rather than or in addition to the winter fuel payment.

On the question of housing benefit, the judgment was made not to make housing benefit in itself a qualifying benefit, because it is based not only on financial circumstances but the amount of rent. As the noble Baroness will understand only too well, households that get housing benefit can go higher up the income distribution than those that get pension credit. That can be true even if they get the maximum, because of the way earned income is treated. We also have to take account of fairness between those who are renting and those who are paying mortgages. I presume that is why, when the previous Government did cost of living payments, they did not choose housing benefit as a qualifying benefit. I imagine it was for the same reasons.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, following the Minister’s reply, the Social Security Advisory Committee recommended that the Government consider bringing forward an urgent amendment to the regulations which would, for this year only, very modestly passport those in receipt of the full rate of pensioner housing benefit on to winter fuel payments. It is a very modest request. Will the Government take that advice?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I think I have answered the point about housing benefit and explained why the Government took the decision we did. However, we are determined to do everything we can, so we are directly contacting approximately 120,000 pensioner households that may be eligible for pension credit, to encourage them to make a claim. We are also writing to all pensioners to make sure they are aware of the changes coming forward and to link them to where they can claim pension credit if they are entitled to it.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

Will the Minister accept that the decision not to give money to people who do not need it was the right decision, and that to argue against it is not sensible? However, it is also true that the public has really not understood what this now means. The Government have to communicate much better than they are doing at the moment. It is wrong to attack the Government for the decision, but it is perfectly right to attack the Government for not putting that decision over in a way that people can understand.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, especially for the first half of that encouragement. The Government had to make some difficult choices. Deciding not to pay the winter fuel payment to people who do not need it was one of those choices. Inevitably, that causes some challenge and concern, particularly for those who are around the margins, as with any system of means testing. That has been challenging, but I take the advice of the noble Lord and we will look again to make sure that we are properly explaining to people what is happening and that those who need this most will still get help. I hope that they will not just get the help of the winter fuel payment, but potentially thousands of pounds in pension credit as well.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

Have the Government carried out any assessment of the differential impacts across the regions of England and the countries of the United Kingdom of this decision to axe winter fuel payments for most pensioners? There will be different impacts. Coming from Northern Ireland, we know some of the concerns there are, and the different levels of information that have been given out about people’s eligibility for pension credit and the campaign to encourage uptake.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, the situation is different in different parts of the country. In Scotland, it is complicated by the fact that this is the first year it is devolved, so we have had to legislate in a different way to enable us to do that for Scotland but not for elsewhere in the UK. The Government have sought to make sure, by writing, across the piece, to 12 million pensioners, that we are directly engaging and that people are as aware as possible. There are also campaigns going on with partners in local government and voluntary organisations, as well as a media campaign on radio, television and social media. I will certainly check, go back and review that, and if I have any concerns that it is not being done appropriately in some parts of the United Kingdom, I will very happily come back to the noble Lord.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

As my noble friend says—I will get it right this time—we now have the letter from the Secretary of State. I am sorry to have to press her on this, but the Government consistently fail to answer the first question raised by the committee. I asked the same question in a Written Question during the recess and, again, it was not answered. The committee wants to know,

“the offsetting cost of different levels of additional Pension Credit take-up”.

I too asked that question, and saying that the OBR has signed off the figures is not an answer.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I understand that the OBR listed certified costings if nobody claimed pension credit, and costings on the assumption, which was also our assumption, that there would be a five percentage-point increase in that. It seems to me that that gives the entire range, and between that, presumably one could do the sums. I think that that does answer the question.

Health-related Benefit Claims

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Tuesday 5th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hazarika]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have to deal with the rising cost of health-related benefit claims.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Sherlock) (Lab)]

My Lords, this Government are committed to supporting people into work, improving outcomes for all and ensuring long-term fiscal sustainability. Our plans as announced in the Budget include £240 million to tackle the root causes of inactivity through the “Get Britain Working” White Paper. In 2025 we will also bring forward proposals to reform health and disability benefits.

[Baroness Hazarika (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend the Minister for that Answer. Does she agree with me that whatever your politics, we should all care about helping more people back to work? It is good for the individual, the economy and the social security bill. Most people claiming health-related benefits are not feckless or lazy; they want to work but have often suffered bad luck, such as an accident or an illness. Has my noble friend seen the work of the Resolution Foundation, which highlights a particular concern with younger workers and mental health issues? Can she outline what the Government are doing to help our younger people get back to work?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend for some very good questions. Evidence shows that appropriate work is generally good for health and well- being, so we want everyone who can to get work and get on in work, whoever they are and wherever they live. But that means proper support for those who are living with health conditions or disabilities.

In relation to younger people, the Resolution Foundation report on this matter had some very interesting findings. One that struck me particularly was that young people who have lower skill levels are more likely to be workless as a result of health conditions than those with higher skill levels. That tallied with the evidence I have seen. Back in 2012, one in 13 of the young people who were not in education, employment or training reported a mental health problem. Now, it is one in five. We have a real challenge with young people and mental health.

We are doing two things: directly improving mental health support for young people in schools and in the community, and trying to do what we can to get them into work. The Budget money announced will help to establish eight youth guarantee trailblazer areas across England to test new ways of supporting young people into employment, training or apprenticeships, working with local suppliers. That will inform the development of a youth guarantee for all 18 to 21 year-olds.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

My Lords, I pick up the Minister’s reference to mental health. Some estimates suggest that up to two-thirds of those claiming incapacity benefits are doing so on the basis of mental health-related issues. Can the Minister tell us whether a focus on young people, in particular their use of things such as smartphones and social media, is being both researched and fed into the Government’s early intervention strategy?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, there certainly has been a growth both in the number of young people reporting mental health issues and in the number of people on sickness or disability benefits as a result of mental health issues—although, because the numbers still skew towards the older age, there are still more older people with mental health issues. However, we definitely have a challenge with young people and mental health issues.

If my department is doing any research on mobile phones, it has passed me by, but I will go back and ask that specifically. However, I am working with my colleagues in the Department for Education to look at the well-being of young people. For example, a children’s well-being Bill will put children’s well-being at the centre of their education. We are looking at providing every single school with a mental health professional who can work with young people. Outside that, we will have youth hubs, with drop-in services and mental health support. If we want our young people to go on to live fulfilling, thriving lives, we need to tackle this problem as early as possible and give them the help they need.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister believe that the reason for health-related benefits claims is the state of the health service, including people’s access to their GP for a face-to-face appointment? If we do not deal with that, we will not deal with health-related benefits. What are the Government doing to pursue those aims?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord points out another of the contributory factors. A complex web of things brings people to this point. As far as we understand it, a number of contributory factors are driving the rise in health-related benefits. Disability has gone up in prevalence over the last 25 years, including a rise in mental health issues. Also, longer NHS waiting lists are thought to increase claims for benefits before people are treated, because they are waiting longer, and potentially after they are treated, because they have poorer outcomes as a result of problems in the National Health Service.

This Government are absolutely committed to fixing our NHS. We have seen record investments, and the plans that came out in the Budget mean that we are absolutely committed both to engaging directly in supporting the NHS and to tackling some of these problems. As part of “Get Britain Working”, we will have trailblazer areas across England and Wales bringing together health, employment and skills services. In three of those areas, money will go to the NHS to develop evidence on how the health system can prevent ill-health-related economic activity. We are going to sort this.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I remain to be convinced that the measures the Government are taking to get more inactive people on benefits into work, including those with mental health challenges, will bear fruit—I hope that they will. I have lost count of the number of consultations that have been announced. Crucial for this is a willingness of employers to hire. Have the Government not made matters much worse with the rise in national insurance contributions for employers announced last week?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I ask the former Minister not to prejudge this—we have not even published the White Paper yet. He may not be convinced by it, but I hope to convince him yet. When it comes out, I will happily talk him through it as there are some excellent plans.

He raises an important point about employers. My department is doing a lot of work with them, and we have plans to do even more. If we are to get people into work—particularly people who have challenges, such as mental health issues or other barriers—we need to get the right people into the right jobs with the right support. Otherwise, the danger is that we get people into jobs but they fall back out of them and do not stay there. We are absolutely committed to working with employers, making sure that we can get employers the staff they need and people the jobs they need.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware of whether CAMHS are being properly financed?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, there is no doubt whatever that there are real problems with child and adolescent mental health services, but we will address them. In the meantime, we have plans in place to recruit another 8,500 mental health professionals to support both children and adults, and we will look carefully at that. We are very conscious that there is no point in identifying mental health problems if there is nowhere to refer young people when they need help.

[Lord Turnberg (Lab)]

My Lords, the most effective treatment for mental illness is cognitive behavioural therapy. It works very well and has been shown to save money because it is quick and effective. It requires clinical psychologists. Do we have enough of them, and what are we doing to fill the gap?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

Honestly, I have no idea—but I have colleagues in the Department of Health who will. As a Government, we are developing significant extra support and making sure that there is an NHS fit for the future, including by providing appropriate support. I am afraid that I will have to find someone to write to my noble friend about the number of CBT therapists.

[Baroness Fraser of Craigmaddie (Con)]

My Lords, many schemes have been getting people on benefits into work, but research shows that one of the biggest challenges is keeping people in work and enabling them to move on to a second, third or fourth job and a career. What are the Government doing to support keeping people in work?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

What a great question. We are absolutely committed to this being a strategy not just to get people into jobs but to get people into good jobs, to keep them there and to help them progress over time. The focus of the “Get Britain Working” White Paper will be on that. In this country we need good jobs and we need people to get them. They need to be given the support to get there—and continuing support, if they need it, while they are there—and then to have the ability to progress. Our three-part scheme will not just include the youth guarantee but bring together the national jobs and careers service as well as skills and help-at-work support. It is all about trying to get people in jobs and make sure that they progress when they are there. I thank the noble Baroness for asking a great question.

[Baroness Winterton of Doncaster (Lab)]

My Lords, following the important points that my noble friend Lady Hazarika made about young people with mental health problems, and the point that was made about CAMHS, does the Minister agree that there needs to be a seamless transition between CAMHS and adult mental health services if we are to end fragmentation and help young people with mental health problems back into work? Will she emphasise that to the Department of Health?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My noble friend makes an excellent point. I am sure that many noble Lords will have heard cases of individuals who found that they were getting appropriate support sometimes when they were children but then found the transition to adult mental health services problematic afterwards. The NHS, as well as investing in support for young people, is investing in mental health care, but I will make sure that specific point is conveyed to my colleagues in the Department of Health.

Pension Credit

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Monday 4th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stedman-Scott]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure every pensioner who is eligible for Pension Credit receives it.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Sherlock) (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government want all eligible pensioners to apply for pension credit. The Government have written to pensioners providing advice about claiming pension credit following the change to the winter fuel payment, alongside a range of other creative media campaigns. We are engaging directly with pensioners as well as with stakeholders, including devolved Governments, councils and charities, in a joint effort to raise awareness through our combined networks and channels.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

I say to the noble Lord: feel free. Having run a pension credit campaign, I can understand what the Minister is undertaking. Do the Government intend to guarantee that the DWP has the capacity to deal with what could well be a rapid uptake of applications for pension credit—with all the extra administration needed to process the claims —after this Government’s shameful decision to deprive pensioners who need it most of their winter fuel payment?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, on that final point, which, obviously, I cannot let go, the poorest pensioners are protected because those on pension credit will still have access to the winter fuel payment.

On the bulk of the noble Baroness’s question, we continue to operate good service levels. Around 500 additional staff have now been brought in to support processing during the recent surge in pension credit claims. Processing times may increase; we have advised customers who apply that it could take nine weeks to process their claims. However, anyone who applies before the deadline of 21 December can have their application backdated, which means not only that they will get winter fuel payments but that they may well get pension credit on top of that.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, I compliment the Minister on the work being done to make people claim pension credit they should have claimed before, in order to try to make up for the rather strange removal of the winter fuel allowance. Can she tell the House when—if we have not reached this point already—the amount of pension credit that was not being claimed before is going to exceed the amount notionally saved from the winter fuel allowance? If that point has not yet been reached, when will it be reached?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I was so with the noble Lord for the first 20 seconds—all the way. I am grateful for his congratulations to the department, and I shall take them back to my colleagues, who are doing a brilliant job on this front. We have written to around 12 million pensioners about the change to the winter fuel allowance, so a lot of work has been done out there to encourage people to apply—and it is having an effect. We have seen a 152% increase in pension credit claims received by the DWP in the eight weeks following the announcement on the winter fuel payment compared to the eight weeks before, and that will be updated towards the end of the month.

On the costs at the end, obviously, a lot of these claims have to be processed and we will not know for some time down the road. However, it is very clear that the DWP wants everybody who is eligible to do so to claim pension credit. As I have said before, if we end up with more people claiming the money to which they are entitled, that is a good thing. Pensioners deserve the money to which they are entitled.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

My Lords, I apologise to the House and to the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, for jumping in too quickly. My noble friend the Minister gave the figure of 500 additional staff in an Answer to a Written Question from me earlier in the Session. What was not clear from her reply was when the 500 extra staff would be in post and fully trained to provide the service required to achieve the take-up of pension credit that we all want to see.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

As I understand it, the staff are mainly being redeployed from within retirement services and the DWP. It is not uncommon for staff to get moved around to different areas of the department as the need moves and flows during the year. Some of those are already in place, and some are going straight in because they are already experienced in dealing with pension credit and need no training. Others who need specific training on dealing with those claims are being moved across—but we are already doing this.

[Lord Watts (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree with me that it is hard to take lessons from the Opposition, who in government oversaw the biggest increase in poverty and homelessness—and then they have the cheek to lecture this side about poverty?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, it is true that the last Labour Government lifted more than 1 million pensioners out of poverty and that the number of pensioners in relative poverty has increased by around 300,000 since 2010-11. However, on the pension credit, I think we are all of one mind. We want to encourage everybody out there who is eligible for pension credit to claim the money and claim it as soon as possible. Please put the word out.

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

Is the Minister aware that we are dealing with some really quite elderly people? Therefore, the response, in terms of their ability to go online, for example, is likely to be very low, so why on earth are we establishing a terminal date of 21 December? Secondly, am I right in understanding from the Minister that we are taking on 500 extra civil servants to handle this demand? Is that not a complete farce, when really it would have been much simpler to leave the winter fuel allowance where it was for all our pensioners, all of whom have paid taxes over the years—and many of those families have lost loved ones in the Second World War and the subsequent Korean War?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord if I was not clear in my last answer—I acknowledge that I speak too quickly on occasion. Many of those 500 staff are being redeployed from within the department. It is not unusual for people to move to different areas of the Department for Work and Pensions, moving on to campaigns as needed. The noble Lord is absolutely right, and of course, there is a very wide range of pensioners. There are many in this Chamber who may technically be of state pension age but who are highly computer literate and more than able to use the online campaigns. The online form is incredibly simple: if somebody applies online, the maximum number of questions they will have to answer is 48, and for some it is as few as 35.

[A noble Lord]

That is still a lot.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

It is a lot, but they include “name” and “date of birth”, so give us a bit of a break here. That said, there are days, I acknowledge, when some of these are beyond me. The great thing is that if you phone the helpline, it is equivalent to doing it online, because the person at the other end is putting the stuff in for you. If you do not want to do computers, you can phone and someone will take you through it. The satisfaction rates are very high. Finally, those who are really struggling can apply with the help of somebody from DWP or from a charity. In extreme cases, someone from DWP will even visit people at home. We will do what it takes to get people to apply for the money to which they are entitled.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Palmer did not get an answer to his very legitimate question on when the cost of the claims for pension credit that we hope will be made will cancel out the saving from the winter fuel payment, factoring in the 500 extra staff in particular. It is fair to ask that question and to wonder whether there is a bit of conflict of interest here: if lots more people apply for pension credit, the £1.5 billion saving that has been headlined disappears.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, when the costings on this policy were done, the Explanatory Memorandum made it clear that the expectation was that it would save £1.3 billion in this financial year and £1.5 billion a year after that. That saving was on the assumption that pension credit would increase by five full percentage points, and it was net of any other DWP benefits that might go with that. Until we exceed that point, the savings are still there. We will not know where this lands until all the claims are in and processed. I simply say, finally, that I want everybody who is eligible for this to claim it. If we end up with more people getting not just the winter fuel payment but the pension credit, that can be worth an awful lot of money. The average pension credit award for a single pensioner is around £72 a week. This is worth having.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness will be aware that these matters are devolved to the Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive, but we are affected as much as any other part of the UK by the cuts to the winter fuel allowance and short uptake of the pension credit. What has been done to liaise with the Northern Ireland Executive to ensure that pensioners in Northern Ireland will have the same advancements, encouragements and incentives to apply for pension credit?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, my department is working very closely with the devolved Administrations, including with colleagues in Northern Ireland, to make sure that campaigns for take-up are out there. However, the core issues around, for example, state pension are reserved.

Food Banks

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Thursday 31st October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kingsmill]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to eliminate the need for food banks.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Sherlock) (Lab)]

My Lords, this Government are committed to reducing mass dependence on emergency food parcels. Tackling poverty and getting Britain working will be the foundation of our approach. The Child Poverty Taskforce will publish a UK-wide strategy in the spring, and we will soon publish a White Paper setting out our plans to reform employment support to help people enter work, and stay and progress in it.

[Baroness Kingsmill (Lab)]

Does the Minister agree that the very existence of food banks in the UK is shameful? Notwithstanding our admiration for the amazing efforts of the thousands of volunteers around the country in community groups, schools and churches and their efforts to tackle food poverty, it is nevertheless shocking to learn that there are nearly 3,000 food banks in this country. Special thanks must go to the Trussell Trust, which operates 1,400 of them. Hungry families should not have to rely on charity to feed their children in one of the richest countries in the world. It is the political choices made over the past 14 years that have caused this. What choices will the Government now make to eliminate the need for food banks?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend for raising this extremely important issue. I join her in paying tribute to the Trussell Trust and to the many community and faith groups that run food banks. I have seen them in churches, mosques and community centres, and it is wonderful that people volunteer. However, like her, I am concerned that they have gone from something at the margins to help someone when they run into trouble, to mass dependence and an integrated part of the system. Something has gone wrong in recent years that we now see 2.3 million people living in households where a food bank was used in the last 12 months. We are committed to ending mass dependence on emergency food banks.

My noble friend talked about families with children. The Secretary of State made this one of her early priorities. She gathered around her a food poverty round table with experts and charities. She has a child poverty strategy, which will be produced in the spring. In the meantime, as a down payment, the Budget yesterday announced additional help for those struggling with debt and for carers. We will offer free breakfast clubs in primary schools. We are getting in and doing things at the start, but above all we need to make sure the system works for families, and we will.

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering (Con)]

My Lords, does the Minister not share my concern that the need for food banks might actually grow in the coming months? There has been a bad harvest and we produce only 16% of our own fruit and vegetables. Food prices are going up and the Budget yesterday will impact negatively on farmers. What does she propose to do to reduce the dependence on food banks, rather than increase it?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, what we are going to do is to support families. People should be able to support their own families, but research has found that if you look at households where somebody had used a food bank in the previous 12 months, 40% of those people are in jobs. Working people should be able to go to work and bring home enough money to feed themselves and their families so, for a start, the Government have just made a significant announcement about an increase to the national living wage. We have a plan to make sure that work pays so that people get into decent jobs and keep them, bringing home enough money to support their families. In the short term, we will make a real difference: free breakfast clubs in every primary school mean that children will not be hungry there. That helps the children and takes a big pressure off their families.

[Baroness O'Loan (CB)]

My Lords, despite everything that the Minister has said about the Budget yesterday, it is being widely reported that it will lead to lower incomes for people generally. Does she think that this will assist in reducing the numbers reliant on food banks, or will it inevitably end in an increase in those who have to rely on them?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, the strategy came through loud and clear in my right honourable friend Rachel Reeves’s Budget yesterday. We have to get this country back to work and get it growing. If we are to reach a point where we can not only repair the damage done to our public services but rebuild our country, we have to make it work. The foundations were laid really well and clearly in the Budget yesterday. The Government have a plan to make work pay. We have a White Paper coming out on that and are reforming the whole of employment support. We want people to be able to get into jobs, keep them and progress in them—not just to make a difference to themselves but to rebuild our country.

[Baroness Janke (LD)]

My Lords, to pay for the Government’s healthy eating recommendations, the poorest 10% of UK households would need to spend 74% of their post-housing disposable income on food. The consideration of healthy eating is not a factor in calculating benefit rates. Do the Government believe that the poorest and most vulnerable people should have access to healthy food and, if so, how will calculations about benefits in the future reflect this?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I absolutely agree about the importance of access to healthy food and there are schemes out there to help the lowest-income families access it, particularly pregnant women and the parents of younger children. Having been asked by a noble Baroness previously about breakfast clubs in primary schools, I went off to check and discovered that they are to be covered by the school standards for food, so we will make sure that there are nutritious breakfasts there. But in the end the noble Baroness, Lady Janke, raises a really important point: we have to tackle the child poverty at the root of this if families are to be able to feed their kids appropriately. That brings us back again to the child property strategy but I am delighted that, in the short term, there were some down payments. One small thing, which will not have gone widely noticed, is that we will introduce a fair repayment rate for universal credit. It sounds really technical but reduces the total cap on deductions from universal credit from 25% to 15%. That means that 1.2 million of the poorest households have £420 a year more to spend, which makes a real difference.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, compared to pre-Covid times, when people tended to visit a food bank for emergency purposes—as a result of a home emergency—there is anecdotal evidence, as I am sure the noble Baroness is aware, that visits per head are more sustained and that the needs of those visitors are more varied. It is not just about poverty. It is about rising cases of mental health and domestic abuse, so what are the Government doing to help food bank volunteers to cope and to spot these signs in customers?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, our local jobcentres are doing very good work, as I am sure the noble Viscount will know from his time doing my job. There are incredibly good arrangements, including partnership schemes to engage with all kinds of local charities to make the connections, but the most important thing is to have somewhere to refer people to. I am afraid that our mental health service has been in such decline that, even if problems are identified, it is quite hard for volunteers to know where people can go. This Government are committed to restoring our mental health support and investing in child and adolescent mental health. As a down payment on that, we will recruit another 8,500 mental health professionals to work with children and adults. I am really grateful to the noble Viscount for raising that really important point.

[Lord Sahota (Lab)]

My Lords, before I ask my question, can I wish all noble Lords a happy Diwali? When all food banks are eliminated, do the Government have any plan for what will happen to all the surplus food that has been donated by the supermarkets and other retailers over time to them?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, obviously I dream of that day. I have visited a fascinating place in the north-east called REfUSE, based in Chester-le-Street in County Durham. It gets free food and has people, as either volunteers or staff, who can help to create meals where people then pay what they can afford. It has branched out from that to start doing catering for events, such as weddings. This does a couple of things. It raises awareness of the tragedy of food waste, while showing how we can reuse things creatively to produce brilliant food; it also helps all of us to think better. If we do not want to end up with food shortages, we all need to get better at reusing and recycling, and buying well in the first place.

[Baroness Boycott (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as the chair of Feeding Britain. The Minister has just outlined one of our social supermarkets, which are a bridge between a food bank and getting people back into normal eating and being able to afford food. We sell surplus and waste food for about 30p in the pound with people joining a club depending on their status, area and income. They are taught to cook and allowed to shop with honour, and our cafes become self-sustaining after the initial costs of setting up. Will she agree to meet us or to come and visit some of our supermarkets? I can see that she has already visited one. They are a way forward, whereas the food bank is a way back.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, they both have their place, at least at the moment, but I would be very happy to visit. I have visited other such things but I am always interested in the creativity behind this. I have visited a brilliant one over in Waterloo, run by Oasis and the Catholic Church. It was fascinating that they were able to engage with and provide support to people who came in, finding out their problems and dealing with them at the root. But there was also a pantry, and somebody proudly told me how he could not only go and get food from it but had been able to cook dinner and invite his neighbours in. That is a wonderful thing to do; it tackles isolation and gives him the opportunity to give something out to others and to learn along the way. It is brilliant and I commend the noble Baroness for her work on this.

Pensioners: Winter Support

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Tuesday 29th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Sherlock) (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government are committed to ensuring that pensioners remain safe and healthy throughout the winter months. Thanks to the triple lock, most pensioners will see their state pension rise by over £1,000 during this Parliament. The lowest-income pensioners are entitled to pension credit, and winter fuel and cold weather payments to assist with heating and other costs. Additionally, all pensioners benefit from free flu jabs, transport concessions and community programmes to support mental well-being.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

That is all very well, but I want to raise a particular concern about pensioners living in rural and coastal communities. As the Minister may be aware, Age UK and Public Health England have been working in tandem to explore and understand the underlying issues, including loneliness, the digital divide, lack of support networks, poor house insulation and gaps in transport links, with attendant increased living costs. The withdrawal of the winter fuel allowance is a major blow to thousands of pensioners, many of whom are simply not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination. What are the Government doing to ensure place-based financial support for those in this category, also bearing in mind energy costs rising in advance of this winter?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, on energy costs, the price cap has risen this year compared to last year, as the noble Viscount will know. However, it is £117 lower than it was last winter and the state pension, as he also knows, is £900 higher. I want to get the message out to pensioners that things may have gone up recently, but they are a lot lower than they were last year.

For rural or off-grid pensioners, energy support is provided by local authorities, DESNZ and devolved Governments. We are encouraging energy suppliers to do all that they can. The noble Viscount may know that the warm home discount is available to eligible low-income households, and the key thing is that it is paid through their electricity bill, so they do not have to be connected to the gas supply to get that help. There is even a specific scheme to support people who live in park homes to apply. There is also a home upgrade grant that provides grants for low-income households to upgrade the energy performance of the worst-quality off-grid gas homes in England by installing energy-efficiency measures and low-carbon heating.

On the broader point about placed-based support, the noble Viscount will know that the Government found the money to extend the household support fund for a further six months, so I would encourage any person in this situation to go to their local authority for local help.

[Baroness Seccombe (Con)]

My Lords, can the Minister update the House on the number of people on pension credit today?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

Approximately 1.4 million pensioner households receive pension credit. We received around 74,400 pension credit claims in the eight weeks following the announcement about the winter fuel payment on 29 July—which is probably what has triggered the noble Baroness’s question. In the eight weeks after the announcement, there were 74,400 applications, while in the eight weeks before it, there were 29,500. That represents a 152% increase in pension credit claims received over that period. That period finished in the week starting 16 September, so more have come in since then and more will come in between now and the deadline of 21 December for when people can apply and still have their winter fuel payment backdated for this year.

[Baroness Janke (LD)]

A large majority of low-income pensioners are not on pension credit and therefore will lose the winter fuel payment, although they are living below the poverty line. What emergency measures have been put in place to support those pensioners? What are the Government doing to refine their targeting policies to make sure that full winter fuel support goes to all poor pensioners who are desperately in need of it?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, the first thing would I mention once again is the household support fund. That is £421 million provided specifically for local authorities to support those in need, especially with the cost of living, such as food and fuel, so that is somewhere for people to go. We realise there is still a significant number of people who could claim pension credit, and if they get pension credit, they will get the winter fuel payment. It also opens up a gateway to other potential support with rent or council tax and passporting to a range of other benefits. We are running a campaign, and we will shortly be writing to 12 million pensioners. We will soon be writing also to 120,000 pensioners who get housing benefit who we think might be entitled to pension credit as well, so we are doing huge amount to make sure all that those in that space can claim it. The final point is that there are two bits to pension credit. The main bit tops up income to a certain level. There is also the savings guarantee, so people who have more savings and may think that they are not entitled to the slightly higher income could still be entitled to some pension credit. If they get any at all, they get the winter fuel payment, so please spread the word.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

It is not sensible to pay taxpayers’ money to people who do not need it—the Government are right on that. My worry is simply that those who apply for pension credit appear in many cases to find the bureaucracy difficult and not quick enough to deliver. Will the Minister assure the House that she will make sure that everybody who applies will get this in time and without bureaucratic delay?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

On bureaucracy, 80% of people now apply for pension credit online. You can apply online, on the phone or on paper, or you can get help from the DWP or a third-party organisation, but 80% apply online. That is by far the simplest and quickest way to do it, not least because you end up answering, at most, 48 questions and sometimes only 35, because lots of things you do not have to go through are taken out. That might seem like a lot, but it really is not—the experience people have is fairly straightforward. If you do not like doing it online, you can phone up and that is the equivalent, because the person on the other end just does it for you—you are on the phone and they are entering all the details. Some weeks, only 5% of people apply on paper.

On how long it takes to process it, as we are expecting an influx of applications, we have redeployed another 500 staff to work on processing. We know that there will be slightly longer times and are warning people who apply that it could take up to nine weeks, but I assure the House that if anyone applies in time, they will get the money. If that means that for a small number of people there will be a cashflow issue, I encourage them go to their local authority to apply to the household support fund to tide them over that gap.

[Baroness Altmann (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I encourage the Minister to recognise that the winter fuel payments are being taken away from the very poorest pensioners. Those on pension credit are not the poorest; those who are entitled to it and will eventually receive it will also not be the poorest because they will get thousands of pounds extra, including winter fuel payments. Those slightly above that—it is estimated there could be 1 or 2 million—have no means of receiving the money that they will need this winter. There is no protection for them. The Minister talks about the reduction in fuel costs. Last winter and the one before, those pensioners received one-off cost of living payments. With a Budget tomorrow, it may not be too late to recognise that this is a mistake; it is going to cause serious harm to a number of pensioners and cost the Government and the NHS significant sums.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, nobody went out thinking that this is where we would like to be, but the noble Baroness knows very well the economic situation that we inherited, and she will know exactly why it was necessary to save money in year. I remind the noble Baroness that, by definition, the poorest pensioners are getting the support they need provided they apply; we will make it as easy as possible for them to do that. For everybody else, the Government have committed to sticking to the triple lock for this Parliament. That means that somebody on the new state pension will find that, over this Parliament, the value of that state pension will rise by £1,700, and the value of even the basic state pension will rise by £1,300. That is where the huge extra support will come from for the pensioners that she is talking about.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, with reference to the triple lock, my noble friend the Minister will be aware that a number of charities have been calling for a double lock on benefits for children; that is, that they should uprated in line with either earnings or prices. Given this Government’s commitment to putting children at the heart of policy-making, might this be considered for the future?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, obviously the noble Baroness will not expect me to comment on the Budget, or I would be back asking questions rather than answering them as quick as she can say “Chief Whip”. She will be aware that the work of the child poverty commission to develop a strategy will involve looking in the round at the challenge of child poverty in our country, including social security systems. It will be looked at in that context.

[Baroness Foster of Oxton (Con)]

My Lords, to add to what my noble friend said regarding the levels of income that pensioners receive, the top rate for the state pension is £11,502. My neighbour has that amount. She is not eligible for pension credit. Can the Minister tell me whether she could she manage on £11,502 per year, and would £200 or £300 make a difference?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, of course, I recognise that there is a challenge out there for many older people who are struggling with the cost of living; I totally understand that. I also know that the noble Baroness’s neighbour is in a position where, a year ago, her pension was worth £900 less. The point I want to insist on is that, at a time of enormous financial constraint in the country, this Government are committed to putting in the money to maintain the triple lock throughout this Parliament. I am not saying that this is easy; I am saying that we have made a significant commitment, and we are going to stick to it.

Employment, Education and Training: Young People

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Tuesday 29th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Newcastle]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to reduce the number of young people not in employment, education, or training.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Sherlock) (Lab)]

My Lords, this Government are fully committed to supporting our young people through the universal credit youth offer, and have invested £7 billion to ensure places in educational training for every 16 to 18 year-old. We plan to improve opportunities for 18 to 21 year-olds through a new youth guarantee, offering training, apprenticeships and support into employment, alongside launching Skills England and a new national jobs and careers service.

[The Lord Bishop of Newcastle]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her Answer. The north-east has the highest proportion of young people not in education, employment or training at 15%. What steps are His Majesty’s Government taking to offer targeted support to young people in regions of greater disadvantage?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, the right reverend Prelate is right to highlight both the regional differences and the correlation with disadvantage in identifying levels of young people not in education, employment or training—or NEETs, as they are rather horribly known. The problem needs early intervention and targeting. The Department for Education is supporting local authorities to identify young people who are at risk of becoming NEET, so that they can be supported to stay in education and training in the first place. My own department, DWP, is reforming careers support and introducing a youth guarantee so that, right across England, every young person, from 18 to 21, has the option of apprenticeships, employment or quality training. We have also convened a small advisory group, including the mayoral combined authorities, local councils and others to make sure that we pursue a mission to reduce the number of young people who are NEET in a targeted way.

[Baroness Benjamin (LD)]

My Lords, the charity First Star Scholars—I declare an interest as patron—works with children in care and has a success rate of over 72% of them obtaining GCSEs and 50% attending university. Care-experienced children usually under- perform, with less than 20% achieving GCSEs and just 6% progressing to university. Will the Government agree to meet with me and First Star Scholars to address this so-called care cliff to help reduce the number of care leavers not in education, employment or training and enhance educational outcomes for these vulnerable young people?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for raising such an incredibly important point. I have the pleasure of having responsibility in my department for disadvantaged groups including care leavers, and I would be delighted to meet her and talk about this further. For a brief outline, here are some of the things the DWP does to support care leavers in different ways: they get priority access to universal credit and budgeting support and help; care leavers in staying-put arrangements can claim benefits under their own steam until 21 in many cases; and, crucially, we have a second-chance learning scheme, which means that if you are 18 to 21 and a care leaver, you can claim benefits and still study full-time to catch up on education you may have missed earlier. There is a lot more, which I cannot wait to tell her about. I look forward to meeting her.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, we are aware of the numbers, and the Minister is suggesting some action, but can she say how much research is being carried out to find out why NEETs are NEETs? What encouragement are the Government giving to such research?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

What a great question. It is really interesting. Some people are NEET for short periods, but we know that vulnerable and disadvantaged young people can be NEET for much longer periods and may have complex needs. Some young people are overrepresented in the long-term NEET group, including people with low educational attainment; children who are looked after, as I was discussing just now; children who are permanently excluded, or in PRUs or alternative provision; those with health conditions; and those with special educational needs and/or disabilities. We are trying to attach each of these things separately, as well as looking at this as a category.

[Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)]

My Lords, has my noble friend the Minister looked at other exciting things going on to try to get hold of these young people and make sure they get some training? Has she seen the examples of the professional league football teams that provide just this? They provide schooling and proper education and, alongside that, allow the young people—mainly young men, but also women—to come along and do some training with professional footballers. This has been very successful in places in the north, such as at Carlisle United, where we have a very successful scheme.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I have not thought about it from that angle, but it is really interesting. I wonder whether it may be necessary for me to go and look more closely at what is happening. Do they do it for cricket as well? If so, I am definitely interested.

[Baroness Redfern (Con)]

My Lords, the first secure school opened in May this year, with a new holistic offer for youth justice. It is designed to shift settings away from punishment and towards rehabilitation. What allocated support will be given to pupils and their families in the next stage of their lives after leaving?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

From my department’s point of view, we work quite closely with those who have been through the criminal justice system. For example, we have prison work coaches who can work inside not just prisons but young offender institutions, and we are working quite closely with colleagues in the Ministry of Justice to try to make sure we can address the reasons young people end up going through the criminal justice system and then come out the other side and find it difficult to get into education, employment or training. If there is anything specific that she thinks we can learn from that, I would be grateful to hear more.

[Baroness Bull (CB)]

My Lords, young people experiencing homelessness experience unique barriers to entering the workforce. Apparently, 43% of young people who are homeless have had to turn down work because of the impact it would have on their benefits. Does the Minister recognise the challenges for this part of the community, and what are the Government doing to ensure that people who are experiencing homelessness can enter the workforce?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

We are looking very closely at these issues—I also have responsibility in my department for people who are experiencing homelessness. We are doing a number of things in this space, and I recognise the problem the noble Baroness describes. I have recently met some of the charities working on this, looking at some of the interesting solutions that they have been offering in supported housing. From the other side, we were one of the departments that helped launch a new homelessness covenant for employers. I recently went to an event to celebrate its first year of operation, and it was brilliant to hear employers talking about what they got out of it, not just recruiting young people who are themselves homeless but understanding that, in many cases in their own workforce, people were at risk of homelessness, had experience of homelessness or were in very precarious situations. We all have a lot to learn about the range of experience that young people have in that space and what more we can do about it. I thank the noble Baroness for raising the question.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, the Youth Futures Foundation—an independent not-for-profit organisation—calls the number of NEETs a “crisis”. As we know, 66% fall into the economically inactive category. I acknowledge the need for better mental health support, but the head of the Government’s new Labour Market Advisory Board, who advocated for

“quicker, clearer and more effective”

sanctions in his advisory role prior to 2010, now suggests a universal income for those out of work and states that sanctions are not a priority. Can the Minister explain what is going on? Is this official Labour policy?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I am not sure who the noble Viscount is talking about but, if he would like to speak to me afterwards, I am very happy to look into it. We want to try to reform support to make sure that every young person has the opportunity of either quality training, quality education or a job. That is our priority and that is what people need. Young people want to have a future and to get on in life, but they have to be given all the support they need to get to that point. We have a crisis among the young. We should not have as many young people between 18 and 24 not in employment, education or training as we have. This Government are determined to reduce that number.

[Lord Allen of Kensington (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the action the Government are taking. Does the Minister agree with me that employers can take a more active role in recruiting young people who are in danger of being not in education, employment or training for life —like her, I hate the phrase NEETs—into earn and learn opportunities such as apprenticeships and graduate training programmes? Will she join with me in encouraging more employers to sign up to schemes such as the incredible 5% Club, which now has 1,100 members and is employing 100,000 employees in earn and learn roles, harnessing their incredible talent to increase productivity and growth?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

The noble Lord makes an excellent point and I thank him for flagging up the 5% Club to me. I am happy to commend the work that it does, and I will make sure I share information about the club with my DfE colleagues.

On the broader point, the Government are encouraging employers to hire apprentices and host T-level placements, but also to develop closer ties with colleges and universities and to strengthen their links with, and have input into, local skills improvement plans. The noble Lord might be interested to know that we have begun work on a new foundation apprenticeship. The idea is to give more young people a foot in the door—it is a pre-apprenticeship apprenticeship, if you like—and to create clear pathways into work-based training and employment. Again, that is the first step on the way to a youth guarantee of a promise of educational training or a job for young people across the country.

Women’s State Pension Age: PHSO Report

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Monday 28th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sikka]

To ask His Majesty’s Government, further to the report Women’s State Pension age: our findings on injustice and associated issues, published by the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman on 21 March, how much compensation they plan to pay to affected women, or to the families of affected women who have died; and on what timescale.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Sherlock) (Lab)]

My Lords, the issues outlined in the ombudsman’s report are significant and complex. As such, they require serious deliberation, and we need time to review and consider the report alongside the evidence and the views expressed. As part of that work, the Government recently met WASPI representatives to hear their experiences directly. Once we have undertaken that work, the Government will be able to outline their approach.

[Lord Sikka (Lab)]

My Lords, paragraph 19 of the parliamentary ombudsman’s report clearly states that

“complainants have suffered injustice as a result of maladministration”,

and the report recommends compensation. Thousands of women have died while awaiting compensation, but all that successive Ministers have done is kick the can down the road, saying, “We are still consulting”. There has already been an inquiry. Can the Minister specify the date by which this injustice will actually be addressed and compensation paid? In addition, will she agree to meet another delegation of the affected women?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, we understand the human impact felt behind the issues raised in this report. Retirement is a significant milestone that should, one hopes, be greeted with excitement rather than surprise. But I say to my noble friend that I do not think this Government could be accused of kicking the can down the road; the ombudsman published its report in March, we became the Government only in July and it is now October. Although I fully understand that he would like me to articulate a response here, I am sorry that I am not able to do so. However, I assure him that the Minister for Pensions met WASPI representatives recently—the first Minister to do that since 2016.

[Baroness Janke (LD)]

My Lords, by the time they reach 65, women will typically have £69,000 in their pension pots compared with the £205,000 the average man will have by the same age. What practical measures will the Government take to address the injustice of the pensions gender gap and enable proper security for women in retirement and old age?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for raising a really important point. The gender pensions gap starts with the gender pay gap. Therefore, the first thing the Government need to do is address the gender pay gap and we are committed to doing that. The national pay gap still stands at over 14%, which is really shocking. We know that most employers understand that, when women succeed, so does their business. We are committed to making sure reports are given. For example, gender pay gap action plans will be mandatory and will reflect the hard work of outsourced workers as well as employees.

The kinds of reforms that have taken place under successive Governments are beginning to change at least the way the state pension addresses the gap between men and women. In the new state pension, there is less of a difference because the old state pension was much more dependent on national insurance contributions and pay-related additional pensions, whereas the new one does not have that. The gap is closing, but in private pensions it is still significant, and we need to do more about that.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, the final PHSO report in March cited maladministration, as the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, said. This is regarding communications by the DWP for 28 months from August 2005. But a ministerial submission in 2009 admitted that, despite steps taken to disseminate leaflets with pension forecasts and the rest, all this had failed to raise awareness among those directly impacted. What assurances can the noble Baroness give that the department has learned its lessons on how best to target its audience and to do it rapidly and in large volume?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, the department is carefully considering the findings of the report. Since 1995, successive Governments have used a range of methods to communicate changes to the state pension age, from leaflets to advertising campaigns and direct mailings. We are making sure that the department is looking more closely at this. For example, we have written letters to people at different stages. Women who were affected by the Pensions Act 1995 were written to between April 2009 and March 2011. People impacted by the 1995 and 2011 Acts were written to between 2012 and 2013, and so on. People in the transitional group—those whose pension age is rising from 66 to 67, in which I count myself—got letters from the department between 2016 and 2018.

I think we are getting better. In the 2021 Planning and Preparing for Later Life survey, people whose state pension age falls between 66 and 67 were surveyed and 94% of respondents either got their state pension age right or underestimated it. Hopefully, this work is paying off.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, I do not take a state pension, but about seven or eight years ago I got an email telling me that I was entitled to a pension for being over 80. I replied and filled out everything. So far, I have not heard a word. I wonder whether, in fact, the DWP is doing better.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, if I could persuade—with some trepidation—the noble and learned Baroness to share the details with me, I would be very happy to look into that.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

My Lords, the ombudsman made it clear that these women suffered from maladministration and that they are entitled to redress. I ask my noble friend to recognise the case for urgency, particularly because the delay is leaving the people affected prey to scammers, who are offering to assist them in making claims. This issue needs to be resolved as quickly as practical.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for raising that last point. To be absolutely clear, because there has been no response to the report, there is no compensation scheme. Anyone claiming to offer it is scamming and nobody should touch it—please can that message go out loud and clear. I understand my noble friend’s general point, and I know he will understand the position that this Government are in. At the risk of boring myself, never mind the House, all I can do is repeat that the Government are looking very closely at the findings of the ombudsman and will respond as soon as is practicable.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister has outlined that she cannot currently give a date, but is she certain that this group of women is clearly defined in the department? There are representative groups, but when a decision is made, does the DWP know exactly whom they need to communicate with?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, just to be clear, I am not making any assumptions about anything. In a sense, this is about when people were born. For example, we know that around 3.5 million 1950s-born women were impacted by state pension changes, as were a group of men. Most of those people have now reached state pension age, but I think there are 790,000 people born in the 1950s who have not yet reached that age. I am not saying that anything in this area is straightforward—it is not—but I understand the noble Baroness’s warning that any attempt to communicate with groups of people will need to be done carefully and with precision.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, when I reached my 80th birthday, I received a letter from the DWP telling me that in view of my advanced age my pension would be increased by 25p a week—I was overwhelmed by the generosity. That measure is no doubt 40 or 50 years old, and it would probably save the DWP considerable money if that aspect of the old age pension were discontinued.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I am shocked to find that the noble Lord is 80, but I commend him on his recent milestone. It is rarity that anyone in the House offers a way to save money, so I will take his point back.

Child Poverty: Benefit Cap

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact of the benefit cap on child poverty.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Sherlock) (Lab)]

Child poverty is a multifaceted issue and the benefit cap is just one factor that can influence the level of financial support available to children and families. Comprehensive action is essential to address the root causes of child poverty. This Government are committed to examining all the ways to dismantle barriers to opportunity, alleviate poverty and help families move towards sustainable employment. The child poverty task force is driving forward this work and will publish its strategy in the spring.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, as my noble friend knows well, not only is the cap a driver of child poverty, especially deep poverty, but it undermines government goals with regard to homelessness and domestic abuse. Will she therefore impress on the child poverty task force the case for its abolition alongside the two-child limit and, in the meantime, do what she can to ensure that at least the cap is uprated in line with inflation as a matter of course so that some of the poorest families are not denied the protection of the annual uprating?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, the Secretary of State is currently in the process of reviewing the levels of social security benefits that are uprated annually, and a statement will be made in due course. When the benefit cap was introduced by the coalition Government in 2013, the legislation required that it be reviewed every five years. The next review is due by November 2027. However, I hear my noble friend’s comments about the challenges facing many families in poverty. The child poverty task force, which is getting to work already, is determined to use all available levers to drive forward short-term and long-term actions across government to reduce child poverty. It is taking evidence from families, activists, local government and people across the country, and I will make sure that her comments are conveyed to it.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, I welcome the Minister’s comments about the child poverty task force, but it is an urgent question and this idea is putting things into the long grass. We want to hear from the Minister how quickly this group will report and produce some action to stop children living in poverty in this country.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, as I said, the child poverty task force has already started urgent work to address this, and it will publish a child poverty strategy in the spring. Given that the Government have not been in place for very long, looking across the whole of government to produce a strategy by spring reflects a real sense of urgency.

[Baroness Smith of Llanfaes (PC)]

My Lords, in Wales children are more likely to be living in poverty than those in other age groups. Will the Minister tell us what tangible steps the two Labour Governments will take to eradicate child poverty in Wales?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for that question. I know that the Welsh Government take these matters very seriously. To make it clear, from the UK position the task force will work closely with the devolved Administrations. In fact, I can reassure her that the co-chairs of the task force have already written to the First Ministers to ensure that the strategy represents the interests of communities across the UK.

[Baroness Blower (Lab)]

My Lords, I hope that the child poverty strategy group will urgently take advice in particular from teachers, who often find themselves at the forefront of attempting to alleviate the grinding poverty in which some of our children arrive in school, particularly because of the two-child cap.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My noble friend makes a very important point. I am very conscious that teachers are on the front line of this and that they see the day-to-day effects of the significant rise in child poverty we have seen in recent years. They are very much people who have things to say to us. That is why the strategy is being co-chaired by my boss, the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, and my noble friend’s boss, the Secretary of State for Education. Child poverty is not restricted to a single aspect of anyone’s life. It has many different causes and many different solutions. We will work across government, as a joined-up Government, to tackle this properly.

[Lord Sikka (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government have indicated the financial cost of abolishing the two-child benefit cap. Can the Minister indicate the social cost of keeping 4.3 million children in poverty?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I will be nerdy for a moment. We inherited two different policies. One is the two-child limit, which limits the benefits paid to any family to the first two children, except in certain circumstances; the second is the benefit cap we are talking about here, which limits the total amount that can be given to any family. I apologise—nerdiness over. One of the reasons this matters is that those problems have different solutions. One of the reasons we are having a child poverty strategy is that the different policies we inherited, the state of the social security system and the series of piecemeal changes all combine with rises in the cost of living, problems in social housing, problems with energy and problems across our society to produce the effects my noble friend is describing. That is why they have to be tackled together.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)]

Last week the blast furnaces at Port Talbot closed and 2,700 people lost their jobs. That surely has a massive influence on the number of children in poverty in Wales. In consultation with the Welsh Senedd, what proposals do the Government have to make sure that those workers are re-employed?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I am so grateful to the noble Lord for raising that. One of the things we are determined to do is to revisit the way in which my department supports people into work. We need our jobcentres across the country to work closely with local, regional and devolved administrations to make sure we are addressing the problems in local labour markets and in local areas. In the near future we will publish a White Paper that sets out the new approach. But the noble Lord put his finger on it: we have to tackle the problems in communities to give people a chance of getting back to work. We need the country to be working—we want an 80% employment rate across our country. That is not just good for the economy or for the individuals; it is good for their children as well.

[Lord Evans of Rainow (Con)]

My Lords, we always welcome new initiatives to help unemployed people get back to work. With that in mind, will the Minister update the House on the current number of job vacancies?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

There is always something that you wish you had put in your pack when you stand up. Today it is that. I will write to the noble Lord.

[Baroness Morgan of Drefelin (Lab)]

My Lords, I do not think the Minister should apologise to the House for being “nerdy”. This is definitely an area where nerdiness is welcomed across the House. Can she reassure us that the work of the task force will be comprehensively supported by evidence looking across all aspects of the issue, with granularity around issues such as support for carers and people with disabilities? What has the experience of any exemptions been? How helpful has that been? We need to be sure that the work is not only comprehensive but evidence based and transparent.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I am very grateful to my noble friend for the absolution and for the thought that I am among friends. Nerds are my people.

She makes an important point. We have a lot of evidence, but there are real gaps in it. The commission will gather the evidence that is there, listen to how people are experiencing these things on the ground and look at the impact of policies across government. To give one small example, she mentions disability. In the benefit cap, households are exempted if they get a whole series of benefits. If they are getting universal credit because of a disability—if they are getting the UC care element, carer’s allowance, PIP or ESA—they are exempt from the benefit cap, but that does not take away the problem that there is still a massive disability employment gap. We want people to get into work. If we are to hit that 80% employment target, a challenge is to look not just at the kind of jobs that are out there but at how we close the gap between people who want to work and employers who want employees. That is part of what we will do in the evidence process.

[Lord Laming (CB)]

My Lords, in respect of child poverty, will the Minister do all that she can to ensure that estranged parents, especially fathers, pay their proper maintenance agreements?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

Absolutely, my Lords. It is not only an area of my responsibility in the department but one of long-standing concern. A significant amount of money changes hands already but we are looking at each stage—how do we make the Child Maintenance Service operate ever better than it does at the moment? An awful lot of money changes hands, mostly relatively smoothly. There are challenges with some non-resident parents and some who simply do not wish to pay, so the Child Maintenance Service is constantly updating the range of powers it has to go after them.

We all take the same view: you may separate from your partner, but you do not separate from your children. We need to find ways to make sure that both parents contribute. We have a consultation out, which we are looking at. We are also reviewing the child maintenance calculation. We are committed to making sure that the service works well and that the principles are up to date, but no one gets away from the fact that you may leave your partner, but you do not leave your kids.

[Lord Davies of Gower (Con)]

My Lords, to continue the Welsh theme, 30% of children in Wales are living in poverty, according to the Children’s Commissioner for Wales, so I stress to the Minister the urgency of reducing child poverty across the UK.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

The noble Lord and I are as one mind on this. Child poverty is too high across the UK. It went up significantly under the last Administration. We are determined to bring it down, and we will do so.

Pensions Regulator Defined Benefit Funding Code of Practice 2024

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Monday 21st October 2024 Grand Committee

To conclude, I am aware that a code of practice is not a legal document but is designed to give clear guidance to those who have significant responsibility for managing our defined benefit schemes. To this extent it seems to have achieved its aims.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Sherlock) (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Davies for securing and opening this debate and all noble Lords for their thoughtful and constructive contributions. I say to my opposite number, the noble Viscount, that it is easier asking questions than answering them in this space, so I hope that noble Lords will bear with me. More questions were asked today than I can conceivably answer in the time I have, but I will do my best to get through them. I assure noble Lords that we will carefully scrutinise Hansard and write to them with the answers to any questions that I cannot pick up.

First, by way of background, as my noble friend noted, earlier this year the House approved the Occupational Pension Schemes (Funding and Investment Strategy and Amendment) Regulations 2024. It is worth remembering that, alongside those regulations, the code of practice we are discussing is a key component of the new arrangements for the funding of DB occupational pension schemes. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, for explaining what a DB scheme is to those watching at home. I hope that those watching at home who have never heard of a DB pension scheme are enjoying themselves, and I encourage them to read Hansard afterwards.

The code is designed to provide practical guidance for trustees and employers to meet their legal obligations, and it includes key metrics needed to implement the requirements. We moved very quickly to lay the code in the new Parliament to give schemes and industry the certainty they have been calling for. It may not be noticed from reading the debate that in fact the code has been well received. A lot of consultation has gone on.

The new scheme is designed to ensure the security and sustainability of DB pensions. Let us not forget the reason we needed to act at all: the damage done by schemes that were not appropriately run and the ensuing loss of benefits to members. Not taking action was not an option. These reforms strengthen the funding regime by providing clearer, more enforceable funding standards with a greater focus on long-term planning.

My noble friend Lord Davies noted that we have published two consultations on the code. The first, in 2020, considered the key principles to underpin the new regime and the proposed regulatory approach. The second was a consultation on the first draft of the code that we are debating today. DWP and the regulator worked collaboratively with and listened to a wide range of stakeholders. As a result, changes have been made to the code to provide more flexibility. For example, the regulator developed a chapter specifically for open schemes. When the code was published in July, it was welcomed for providing clarity and achieving a flexible approach. There is broad consensus that the code strikes the right balance between member security and employer affordability. Crucially, it provides sufficient scheme-specific flexibility to take account of the very wide range of scheme circumstances. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, for his support and the noble Viscount, Lord Younger, for the acknowledgment. Broadly speaking, we are looking at detail, but we think we are doing the right thing in the right way.

The new framework, including the code, has been revised following extensive engagement with industry to ensure that it provides flexibility for schemes to invest in a wide range of asset classes, including growth assets, both before and after significant maturity. Open schemes, like others, will have significant flexibility to invest in riskier investments with potentially higher returns, if the risk can be supported, so member benefits are protected. It also makes clear that the open schemes will not be made to derisk as long as they remain open to new members, are not maturing and the risk they are taking is supported by the employer covenant.

I will try to go through as many of noble Lords’ questions as I can. First, the phrase box-ticking has been used once or twice. I reassure noble Lords that this regime is absolutely not a box-ticking exercise. The regulator is taking the opportunity provided by the introduction of the new regime to evolve the way it regulates DB funding. This includes proportionate measures with flexibility for different schemes. The regime will be based on clear metrics designed to protect members’ benefits as well as to take account of employer affordability.

The Pensions Regulator operates on a risk-based and outcome-focused approach. We think that that proportionality is in the right space. The regulator is introducing a twin-track approach: fast-track and bespoke. This aims to help target its engagements with the sector effectively. Where a scheme meets a series of fast-track parameters, the regulator will ask for less information and is less likely to engage with trustees. On the other hand, the bespoke route allows schemes to take a different approach and to provide evidence of why this is appropriate. Many of them are unlikely to require further engagement between the regulator and trustees.

My noble friend Lord Davies asked about the use of scheme surplus. I remind the Committee that, in February, the options for defined benefit schemes consultation sought views on the potential benefits of introducing additional flexibilities for the use of surplus funding on DB pensions schemes. The Government will continue to consider the potential of such flexibilities to benefit scheme members and sponsoring employers while supporting economic growth.

The noble Viscount, Lord Younger, asked about low dependency investment allocation. The flexibility of the UK’s funding regime is one of its greatest assets and one that we have been careful not to undermine in the new arrangements. Pension schemes are many and varied and each has its own circumstances, so they are best managed through scheme-specific arrangements. That is why we try to balance clear metrics on how liabilities have to be calculated with scheme-specific flexibilities that allow trustees the discretion to react to changing circumstances and act in the best interests of their members while strengthening the ability of the regulator to intervene and act if things go wrong. Noble Lords may have other views. We believe that this balance is right and in the interests of members of schemes.

There was a question about whether trustees have the flexibility to take decisions in the light of the circumstances of their individual schemes. Flexibility is a key strength of the regime, but it is balanced with those funding standards and the key metrics of the new arrangements. The bottom line is that it is fine to take supportable risk. Taking investment risk to benefit from potentially higher returns is fine if there is enough time for asset values to recover or a sponsor with enough resources to pay more in the future. That is why the new regime focuses on the key metrics of maturity and covenant strength.

The noble Baronesses, Lady McIntosh and Lady Altmann, raised costs to scheme members. It is worth putting those absolute costs in the context of the scale of our pensions world. The impact assessment for the code indicates that costs will amount to around £7,000 per scheme on average, with ongoing administrative costs of approximately £1,100 on average per scheme. That excludes costs associated with changes in deficit repair contribution payments, of course. Those are small costs compared to the overall liabilities of a scheme. They are unlikely to have a significant impact, and certainly not on members. Most schemes are closed, and members of those schemes will not be paying contributions. Modestly increased costs are unlikely to have any impact on the probability of members’ benefits being paid in full. There are some members in schemes which share costs and are still open for accrual, but they are the minority. Only 4% of schemes are fully open; 20% are closed to new members. As the costs per scheme are estimated to be low, we do not anticipate any significant material impact on members overall. This must be seen in the context of the impact of clearer funding arrangements with more emphasis on long-term planning, which should make members more confident that their benefits will be paid in full.

We were asked what will be done to monitor the costs. We will continue to monitor the costs. Although there is some uncertainty about trustee behaviour and response, as we cannot know that, the impact assessment used data from March 2022 and modelled, on average, an overall net saving of around £20 million per year. I can write with more detail if Members would like that.

It is worth understanding that the regulations and code are principle-based. The code is practical guidance for implementing the regulations.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, asked about different valuation methods. I will not get into TAS but will write to him on how TAS interacts. However, I have a word for the broader audience watching from home about the different valuation methods. There are two main ones. The technical provisions are, rightly, used to assess contributions and deficit recovery contributions because they are calibrated to balance member security with employer affordability. On the other hand, the solvency measure is much more generic and less scheme-specific. It is used to assess funding against the cost of insurance buyout. That is a much stronger measure. Schemes are not required to be funded to that level because that would make DB much more expensive, if not unsustainable. The use of these technical measures does not push schemes into inappropriate de-risking or into a risk-adverse approach. Schemes can choose a variety of approaches to setting their liabilities, including by reference to the investments that they intend to hold. They will be affected by a whole range of considerations, not least the route to compliance with TPR that they choose to use.

The new regime is extremely scheme-specific and flexible. Even at significant maturity, schemes can invest in a proportion of return-seeking assets provided that the risk can be supported. Most schemes are currently investing more prudently than the new regime requires. Indeed, the regime suggests that there is headroom for some schemes to take more investment risk than they are taking currently, of which I am sure the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, will be very conscious. The requirement in this to derisk will, as intended, mostly impact outliers which have been pushing the scheme-specific flexibilities further than they were ever expected to stretch and, in doing so, putting members’ benefits at risk. It is right that those outliers should be required to derisk to protect members’ benefits through the clearer and more enforceable metrics of the revised regime.