Overseas Operations (Service Personnel and Veterans) Bill

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard) & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 20th January 2021 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Goldie]

That the Bill be now read a second time.

Relevant document: 9th Report from the Joint Committee on Human Rights

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con) [V]]

My Lords, it is with pleasure that I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. I begin by paying tribute to the brave men and women of our Armed Forces, who protect this country and our security, day in and day out. These exceptional individuals are often called upon to perform their jobs under extraordinarily difficult and dangerous circumstances, enduring great hardship, being exposed to injury and risking the ultimate sacrifice of their own lives.

Similarly, I want to pay tribute to the families of current and former personnel. They keep homes together, bring up children and attend to the care of older relatives, giving the precious members of our Armed Forces the peace of mind to do their duty. We owe the Armed Forces and their families our utmost respect and support, and we must reflect that in how we treat them. They must know that, when they are taking necessary and appropriate action to protect us and the freedoms that we value, we in turn will not shy away from taking the necessary and appropriate action to protect them.

However, the reality is that, having asked these personnel to risk life and injury in the most unforgiving of environments in overseas conflicts, they have returned home to face a dark shadow of uncertainty: an enduring, corrosive uncertainty about whether or not they will be called into criminal or civil proceedings many years down the line. They do not know whether they will be required to relive the traumatic events of, and defend their actions in, a conflict that took place many years previously.

That shadow endures because such potential proceedings are not always constrained by the passage of time. That is neither reasonable nor appropriate. However, it reflects the increased pattern of the judicialisation of warfare, evident over the last 25 years. Equally, we must take action to ensure that our commanders on the ground in the field of conflict, having to make potentially life-or-death split-second decisions, do not feel inhibited, or, worse, distracted, by concerns about how their actions may be perceived many years later—that is clearly profoundly undesirable.

Let me also be crystal clear that those who commit criminal acts or behave negligently must face justice and must expect to be called to account. However, that should be done without undue delay: periods of delay stretching over years are simply not acceptable. Delay does not serve the interests of the victims, for whom the most certain route to justice is to bring forward a criminal allegation or a claim for compensation as soon as possible before evidence disappears or becomes stale or before memories become opaque.

The Overseas Operations (Service Personnel and Veterans) Bill seeks to address these issues. It deals with the issue of unreasonable delay, but it also endeavours to provide greater certainty to our service personnel and veterans that the unique pressures—and they are unique—placed on them during overseas operations will be taken into account when decisions are being made as to whether to prosecute for alleged historical offences. These are the objectives that the Bill seeks to deliver.

I have been struck by commentary on the Bill: some people think it is necessary but does not go far enough, while others think it is unnecessary and goes too far. The Government have endeavoured to strike a balance that recognises the position of victims and our Armed Forces and seeks to be fair to both. In my discussions with many of your Lordships, I detect broad sympathy with the Bill’s objectives. I acknowledge that a number of your Lordships have concerns about some of the individual provisions in it and will wish to press the Government for clarification and reassurance as to how these will impact in practice. I look forward to this debate as an opportunity to explore these.

I make clear that the measures in this Bill are not the only work being taken forward in respect of these matters. The Government are progressing recommendations from the service justice system review, and the forthcoming Armed Forces Bill is expected to contain provisions relating to key recommendations from this. I am pleased to confirm to your Lordships that the review by Sir Richard Henriques of the conduct of investigations relating to overseas operations and the prosecutorial process, which was announced by the Secretary of State in October, is under way and due to report in the summer.

This is a journey that started in the early days of operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, and it is important to recognise that we have already come a long way since then. That journey has involved intensive scrutiny and legal challenge, and both the service police and the Armed Forces have learned important lessons on better resourcing, supporting and professionalising investigations on operations. The Ministry of Defence is also constantly reviewing its policies, training and practices to help to ensure that we comply with all applicable legal obligations on future operations.

I turn to the Bill itself and what it seeks to deliver. First, it is important to be clear about what it does not do, because it seems to me that a somewhat distorted version of the Bill has achieved a degree of currency. The Bill is not an amnesty or a statute of limitations: prosecutions can still go forward after five years from the date of the alleged incident and it does not prevent allegations of offences being made and investigated after five years. There may be circumstances where victims are unable to report their allegations quickly after the event, and that is recognised. The Bill does not abolish, eradicate or eliminate the rights of victims of crime, nor does it deny the rights of those who seek redress in the civil courts, whether they are Armed Forces personnel, MoD employees or other parties.

I will move now to what the Bill does. Part 1 introduces measures dealing with criminal matters, which includes a presumption against prosecution where five or more years have passed since an alleged offence on an overseas operation. With Part 1, the Government have sought to strike a balance: on the one hand, introducing protective measures that set a high threshold for a prosecutor to determine whether a case should be prosecuted and ensure that the adverse impact of overseas operations will be given particular weight in favour of the service person or veteran; and, on the other hand, ensuring that, in circumstances where our service personnel fall short of the high standards of personal behaviour and conduct that is required and expected of them, they can still be held to account. This is one of the reasons that we have not proposed an amnesty or a statute of limitations. Let me be very clear: the presumption against prosecution after five years is not an absolute bar to prosecution. We have also sought to avoid fettering the prosecutor’s discretion in making a decision to prosecute and have ensured that the measures are compliant with international law.

Clause 1 sets out the circumstances in which the measures in Part 1 apply to decisions about whether or not to prosecute criminal cases. In short, the measures apply only once five years have elapsed from the date of an alleged offence by service personnel that took place on relevant overseas operations. For the purposes of Part 1, the Bill defines what constitutes relevant overseas operations.

Clause 2 introduces the presumption against prosecution, the effect of which is that it should be “exceptional” for a prosecutor to determine that a service person or veteran should be prosecuted for alleged offences that occurred on operations outside the UK more than five years previously. While the presumption introduces an “exceptional” threshold, it is important to note that the presumption is rebuttable; the prosecutor retains their discretion to determine that a case is exceptional and should be prosecuted.

Clause 3 requires the prosecutor to give particular weight to certain matters. These include the adverse impact of overseas operations on a service person, including on their mental health, and, in cases where there has already been a previous investigation and there is no new, compelling evidence, the public interest in cases coming to a timely conclusion.

Clause 5 requires the consent of the Attorney-General before a prosecution can proceed to trial. Clause 6 provides a definition of the “relevant offences” to which Part 1 applies and introduces Schedule 1, which lists the offences that are excluded from the presumption.

The offences listed in Schedule 1 reflect the Government’s strong position that there can be no conceivable link between operational duties and the use of sexual violence and sexual exploitation on overseas operations, and that the “exceptional” threshold in the Bill should not apply in such circumstances.

We have not excluded other offences, including torture, because, in the course of their duties on overseas operations, we expect our service personnel to undertake activities which are intrinsically violent in nature. Where service personnel are engaged in combat, detention and interrogations, they have faced and will continue to face allegations such as of torture and war crimes because of the unique nature of warfare. They may deny and refute these allegations, but they can still expect to face them.

Critics of the Bill believe that this signals that the Government no longer view with gravity offences such as war crimes and torture. Well, we most certainly do: these crimes are appalling and, as I have already emphasised, the prosecutor retains their discretion to determine that a case is exceptional and should be prosecuted.

The measures in Part 1 will not therefore allow service personnel to act with impunity; they do not impact on the willingness or ability of the United Kingdom to investigate or prosecute alleged offences committed by our service personnel. These measures are consistent with our international legal obligations and, as such, they will not put our service personnel at risk of being investigated by or prosecuted in the International Criminal Court.

Part 2 of the Bill makes changes to the time limits for bringing tort claims for personal injury or death, and Human Rights Act claims, relating to events that occur in connection with overseas operations. Again, the Government’s intent with the measures in Part 2 is to ensure that claims are brought promptly so that the courts are able to assess them when memories are fresh and evidence is more readily available. This will help to ensure that service personnel and veterans will not be called on indefinitely to recall often traumatic incidents that they have understandably sought to put behind them. It will also mean that, where such claims make allegations of criminal behaviour, these can also be considered expeditiously by the service police.

Clauses 8 to 10 introduce Schedules 2, 3 and 4, which introduce new factors that the courts in England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland must consider when deciding whether a claim for personal injury or death can be allowed beyond the normal time limit of three years. These new factors ensure that the “operational context” in which incidents occurred is properly taken into account. They weigh up the likely impact of the proceedings on the mental health of the service personnel or veterans who may be called as witnesses.

The provisions also introduce an absolute maximum time limit of six years for such claims. For personal injury or death claims, that time limit will be calculated from the date of incident or from the claimant’s date of knowledge. The provisions also ensure that, where the law of another country is to be applied when the court is assessing the claim, the maximum time limit of six years still applies.

Clause 11 introduces three factors for the courts to consider when deciding whether to extend the one-year time limit for bringing Human Rights Act claims and an absolute maximum time limit of six years. It also introduces a date-of-knowledge provision for a Human Rights Act claim in connection with an overseas operation, so that it can be brought up to 12 months from the date of knowledge, even if that 12-month period ends after the six-year period has expired.

Finally, Clause 12 will further amend the Human Rights Act to impose a duty on government to consider derogating from—that is, suspending—some of our obligations under the ECHR in relation to significant overseas military operations. This measure does not require derogation to take place, but it requires future Governments to make a conscious decision as to whether derogation is appropriate in the light of the circumstances at the time. The Bill does not change any of the existing parliamentary oversight that currently applies to derogation orders.

These measures are consistent with court rulings that claimants do not need to be provided with an indefinite opportunity to obtain a remedy. Once again, the purpose of the limitation long-stops is to encourage individuals to bring claims promptly, while evidence and memories are fresh.

In conclusion, this a necessary and important Bill. It seeks to reduce the uncertainty faced by our service personnel and veterans and looks to the future, providing a better and clearer legal framework for dealing with allegations and claims arising from future overseas operations and recognising the unique burden and pressures placed on our service personnel. It strikes an appropriate balance between victims’ rights and access to justice on the one hand and fairness to those who defend this country and our values on the other. It delivers on a manifesto commitment by the Conservative Party to our Armed Forces and veterans. It is based on strong support for the proposals, as evidenced in the response to the public consultation and by clear majorities in the other place. I therefore commend the Bill to the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Goldie (Con) [V]]

My Lords, it has been a privilege to participate in and listen to this debate. I want to express my appreciation for the thoughtful and profound contributions that have been made, as well as for the tributes and gratitude extended from all parts of the Chamber to our Armed Forces, recognising the vital job that they do. They are at the heart of what we are discussing; we must not forget that.

Predictably, a wide variety of views has been expressed about the Bill. On the part of some, there is disagreement with there being a Bill at all; that seemed the approach of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, and the noble Baroness, Lady Northover. While I respect their views, I cannot support them. For me to bridge that gap would obviously be challenging.

I detected a slightly different nuance from the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, but I detected on the part of many other noble Lords a recognition that there is an issue that should be addressed—even if there is a multiplicity of views on how that should be done. The noble Lord, Lord Touhig, accepted that premise, as did the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, the noble Lord, Lord Dannatt, and my noble friend Lord Lancaster. Indeed, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Portsmouth accepted that principle, although he had significant reservations about other aspects.

The noble Lord, Lord West, was explicit about the need for legislation, although I noted his mark of five out of 10 for the Bill. In this broad context of the questions of whether there is an issue and whether we need legislation, two of the most balanced contributions came from the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, and my noble friend Lord Arbuthnot.

Your Lordships have assisted in amending some of the misconceptions about what the Bill does, but I detected a continuing theme of reference to perceived wrongs created by the Bill when, I suggest, some of the more extravagant descriptions are not supported by a clinical dissection of it. My noble friend Lord King of Bridgwater identified that and spoke helpfully about it. I say gently to the noble Lord, Lord Robertson of Port Ellen, for whom I have great respect, that the Bill is not a statute of amnesty. Having said all that, there are sharp divergences of view about the provisions, their legal interpretation and how that relates to international law. This has been an informed and thought-provoking debate. I cannot deal with every contribution in the time available, but let me try to address the principal issues raised.

To start, the issue of investigations was raised by a number of your Lordships, including the noble Baronesses, Lady Liddell, Lady Buscombe and Lady Jones, the noble Lords, Lord Anderson and Lord Browne of Ladyton, and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Boyce. It is correct that the measures in Part 1 of the Bill do not have a direct impact on repeated investigations. Credible allegations will continue to be investigated. However, over time, prosecutors may be able to advise the police earlier in the process on whether the new statutory requirements in Part 1 would be met in a particular case and whether investigations are likely to be worth continuing. The Government are committed to ensuring that we have the best possible processes for timely and effective investigations into allegations arising from military operations overseas. As I mentioned, the Bill will work in parallel with the recently announced review, led by Judge Henriques, which will focus on the processes of overseas operations investigations and prosecutions.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Ipswich, that the review by Sir Richard Henriques will not revisit past investigations or prosecution decisions. Instead, the focus will be on the future, allowing the consideration of options for strengthening internal processes and skills while ensuring that our Armed Forces continue to uphold the highest standards of conduct when serving on complex and demanding operations around the world.

The presumption will not prevent investigations. These are necessary to provide prosecutors with the information upon which to make their decisions. Allegations of serious offences, including breaches of the Geneva conventions, must, and will, continue to be investigated and, where appropriate, prosecuted.

There were some comments about the quality of investigations. In the early part of operations in Iraq, there were certainly very limited numbers of service police and investigators were competing for scarce resources, such as helicopters to visit scenes and troops to provide force protection. These investigations were taking place in the most complex and hostile of environments. In these circumstances, some investigations took place that were later reviewed and identified as having shortcomings. Where appropriate, these matters were subsequently reinvestigated, but much was learned from these experiences. All branches of our Armed Forces, including the service police have taken the lessons identified and have been seeking to improve how they operate.

A number of noble Lords, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, and the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, raised concerns that the prosecution provisions in Part 1 of the Bill amounted to impunity from prosecution. I reassure them that the five-year timeframe for the measures in Part 1 is not a time limit, after which service personnel cannot be prosecuted. The presumption against prosecution is not an amnesty or a statute of limitations and does not amount to an unwillingness to investigate or prosecute alleged offences. It leaves open the possibility of prosecution of all cases, subject to the prosecutor’s decision. Service personnel who break the law can still be held to account and the presumption does avoid interfering with prosecutorial independence. It will still allow for prosecutions to proceed where appropriate. It definitely will not allow personnel to act with impunity. As I indicated earlier, the Bill does not prevent investigations or prosecutions taking place.

The issue of international law compliance was, understandably, a source of both interest and concern for many of your Lordships. A number of noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Thomas of Gresford, Lord Robertson, Lord Anderson of Ipswich and Lord Tunnicliffe, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Northover and Lady Jones, also asked questions about whether the Bill increases the risk that our service personnel would be prosecuted by the International Criminal Court. We are confident that the Bill does not increase the risk of our service personnel or veterans being prosecuted by that court or in any other jurisdiction. While Article 17 of the Rome statute makes provision for the International Criminal Court to step in and investigate or prosecute if it assesses that a state is unwilling or unable to do so, the presumption is not an amnesty or a statute of limitations for service personnel. It therefore does not amount to an unwillingness or inability to investigate or prosecute, and the presumption is consistent with the Rome statute. UK Armed Forces will continue to operate under international law, including, of course, the Geneva conventions, and we will expect others to do likewise. The Bill cannot be used as an excuse for offences committed by others against UK Armed Forces personnel.

A number of your Lordships, including the noble Lords, Lord Touhig and Lord Carlile of Berriew, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Northover and Lady Smith, raised the question of whether the presumption against prosecution breaches the Geneva conventions, the Rome statute, the ECHR and other international agreements, including the United Nations Convention against Torture. I can reassure them that the Bill does not diminish the Government’s commitment to upholding and strengthening the rule of law. Military operations will continue to be governed by international humanitarian law, including the Geneva conventions, taking into account the UK’s obligations under the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court.

The UK Government unreservedly condemn the use of torture and remain committed to their obligations under international humanitarian and human rights law, including the United Nations Convention against Torture. The UK does not participate in, solicit, encourage or condone the use of torture for any purpose. We believe that preventing torture and tackling impunity for those who do torture are essential components of safeguarding our security and are integral to a fair legal system and the rule of law.

I now turn to Schedule 1 and the inclusions in it. This proved to be an area of considerable concern for many of your Lordships. Indeed, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Portsmouth, the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and other Members of your Lordships’ House raised a number of important concerns on the subject of torture, and it is important that I try to deal with them. The exclusion of sexual offences from the application of the Part 1 measures does not mean that we will not continue to take other offences, such as war crimes and torture, extremely seriously, because they are extremely serious crimes. Indeed, in my opening speech I described them as appalling.

We have not excluded torture offences because this goes right to the heart of the environment of overseas operations: what we call on our personnel to do when they are required to serve in that arena. In the course of their duties on overseas operations, we expect our service personnel to undertake activities which are intrinsically violent in nature. These activities can expose service personnel to the possibility that their actions may result in allegations of torture. By contrast, although allegations of sexual offences can still arise, the activities we expect our service personnel to undertake on operations overseas cannot possibly include those of a sexual nature. It is for this reason that we do not believe it appropriate to afford personnel the additional protection of the presumption in relation to the allegations of sexual offences.

In relation to other offences, the presumption against prosecution still allows the prosecutor to continue to take decisions to prosecute, and the severity of the crime and the circumstances in which it was allegedly committed will always be factors in the prosecutor’s consideration.

Many of your Lordships also alluded to the matter of the Attorney-General’s consent. This was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, and by other Members of your Lordships’ House. They were concerned that this somehow undermines the independence of the prosecuting authorities, but I suggest that this is absolutely not the case. In deciding whether to grant consent to prosecutions, the Attorney-General will act quasi-judicially and independently of government, applying the well-established prosecution principles of evidential sufficiency and the public interest. This means that the Government will play no role in the decision on consent. The Attorney-General acts as guardian of the public interest in other issues; there are already a number of offences and circumstances for which the Attorney-General’s consent for prosecution is needed, including for war crimes and the prosecution of veterans through the service justice system if they have left service more than six months previously.

My noble and learned friend Lord Garnier also asked why the Lord Advocate for Scotland had not been included. The consent mechanism does not extend to Scotland because there is no requirement for it to do so; all criminal prosecution decisions in Scotland are already taken by or on behalf of the Lord Advocate in the public interest.

I will move on the Part 2 and the civil litigation restrictions. Again, this was a source of fertile debate, with a multiplicity of views being offered. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas, raised the point that not all claims are unmeritorious. I agree: many, though not all, of these claims had merit, but the scale of them and the fact that they were brought years after the events has prompted us to look again at the legal framework to ensure that it is applied consistently and promptly to deliver justice for all concerned.

The noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, asked whether the measures in Part 2 that place an absolute time limit on civil claims breach the Armed Forces covenant. This was also of concern to the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe. The Bill does not breach the Armed Forces covenant: the new factors and limitation longstops apply only to claims in connection with overseas operations, and they will apply to all claimants in the same way.

A number of points were raised by various noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Hendy, the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Boyce, and the noble Baroness, Lady Blower, about the Bill removing the discretion of the court to extend the time for compensation beyond six years. The noble Lord, Lord Touhig, argued that, for the past 15 years, only one in 25 cases was brought by alleged victims against our troops. I do not recognise the figures he referred to, but I would be pleased to hear from him if he can provide me with further information.

It is important to note that the Bill will apply to only a subset of claims made by UK Armed Forces personnel. The vast majority of claims brought by them are not brought in relation to overseas operations and would therefore not be impacted. Among claims brought against the MoD resulting from overseas operations in Iraq, claims from local nationals far exceed those from service personnel. There were over 1,000 claims from local nationals, compared with 552 from service personnel, arising from our operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. An analysis of the available figures indicates that around 94% of these claims brought by current and former service personnel relating to incidents in Iraq and Afghanistan were brought within six years.

As such, the longstops are not designed to prevent meritorious claims being made against the UK Government, whether by our personnel or anyone else. They are included as part of a number of measures to provide a better, clearer framework for dealing with claims arising from historical operations overseas. Indeed, this may arguably encourage claimants to bring claims within a reasonable period, which will certainly benefit them, as memories will be fresher and evidence less likely to have gone stale. It will also help to provide our personnel with greater clarity that they will not be called upon to give evidence about historical events.

Many have suggested that the measures in Part 2 will benefit only the MoD. This is not the case, because the six-year longstops will help to reduce the uncertainty faced by service personnel, who may be called on to give evidence in civil proceedings about often traumatic experiences many years after the events took place. Again, I think the measure would be beneficial to claimants because there is a better likelihood of success if the claims are made as soon as possible after the event or date of knowledge.

The Bill does not change how the time limit is calculated for death and personal injuries claims. That time limit will still be calculated from the date either of the incident or, importantly, of knowledge.

Derogation powers were the other matter that attracted considerable debate. The noble Lord, Lord Dannatt, with many others, asked whether derogating from the ECHR would weaken the UK’s reputation and put soldiers at greater risk on the battlefield. We disagree that considering derogation for significant future operations would put our soldiers at risk. The derogation measure does not undermine the UK’s commitment to human rights and liberties, domestically and internationally; we fully intend to maintain our leading role in the promotion and protection of human rights, democracy and the rule of law. The UK remains committed to the ECHR.

My noble and learned friend Lord Garnier asked how “significant” is defined. The duty to consider derogation arises only in relation to overseas operations that the Secretary of State considers meet a minimum threshold. The operation must be significant; whether it is will depend on its nature. This is intended to avoid imposing a duty in relation to any operations that manifestly would not meet the criteria for derogation set out in Article 15 of the convention.

I am conscious of the time. I have been unable to cover a number of specific technical points, but I will undertake to look at Hansard and write to your Lordships with responses to any substantive issues that I have not managed to address.

In conclusion, I want to deal with the important issue of Northern Ireland. A number of your Lordships —the noble Lords, Lord McCrea and Lord Dodds, my noble friend Lord Caine, the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, and others—asked for an update on the Northern Ireland legacy Bill. As elegantly put by my noble friend Lord Caine, veterans who served in Northern Ireland are not covered by the Bill, which focuses on improving the legal framework for overseas military operations. The Government have been clear that they will bring forward separate legislation to address the legacy of the Troubles that focuses on reconciliation, delivers for victims and ends the cycle of investigations. We are committed to making progress on this as quickly as possible. The Government remain committed to making progress on legacy issues and engaging as quickly as possible with the Irish Government, the Northern Ireland parties and civic society, including victims’ groups, on the way forward.

This has been an excellent debate. I have tried to address the main areas of concern, because many technical, legal issues have arisen out of the debate. As I said earlier, I am aware that I have been unequal in covering them, but as I indicated I will look at Hansard and address by letter any points of significance that I have omitted to deal with.

It remains for me to thank all noble Lords who have contributed. The debate has certainly teased out a lot of issues and provided matters that require reflection. I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, who said he hoped I was minded to engage. I wish to reassure him: I am very happy to engage with your Lordships, and I give that undertaking. In conclusion, I thank noble Lords very much for their participation. I look forward to reading Hansard and to engaging with your Lordships further.

Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

UN Mission in Mali: Armed Forces Deployment

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Monday 14th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I start by echoing the words of the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, and the Secretary of State in expressing my gratitude to our service men and women. In particular at this time we send our thanks and best wishes to those serving in Mali and deployed anywhere else in the world in the run-up to Christmas. In particular, we send our thanks and gratitude to the families of our service men and women, without whom they would find doing their job serving our nation so much harder.

The deployment to Mali is, as the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, said, to be welcomed. It is one that the previous Secretary of State for Defence flagged up in the middle of 2019, so it is not a surprise; it is part of an international UN mission, and clearly something that our service men and women are trained for. It is precisely the sort of mission that is to be welcomed but, as the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, pointed out, it is in one of the most dangerous parts of the world. In his Statement, the Secretary of State suggested that our service men and women were well trained and equipped for the mission and have the right training, equipment and preparation to succeed in a complex operating environment. Could the Minister confirm that she believes that those deployed to Mali are appropriately kitted out and that they are not placed in any greater danger than is inevitably the case in such a deployment?

As the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, also pointed out, Mali is a country where it is extremely dangerous, because of terrorist activities, but particularly difficult to be a woman—or a girl being educated. To what extent will the change to humanitarian aid impact on Mali? The Minister is clearly responding primarily for the MoD but she is replying for the Government, so can she confirm that the Government remain committed to supporting women and girls?

In particular, what is the Government’s wider approach to sub-Saharan Africa? I note that the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay of St Johns, will speak later. She admirably chaired the committee of your Lordships’ House on which I sit, and which produced a report on sub-Saharan Africa in July. We have not yet had the opportunity as a House to debate that report, but one issue that the committee kept coming across was a difficulty in understanding whether the Government actually had a strategy for Africa. It would be helpful to understand from the Minister how far Mali fits into such a strategy. Clearly, the UK is playing an important role here as part of a UN mission, but does that fit as part of the Government’s wider strategy?

Overall, this is clearly a welcome mission, even if it is very unfortunate that Mali requires such intervention. It is welcome that the UK continues to play a global role. It is also notable that so much of that role is with our allies, including France and Sweden. Can the Minister reassure the House that, as we move forward, such security relationships will continue to be as deep and fully fledged as they have been? Those relations matter, regardless of the UK’s relations with the European Union. If the deployment to Mali fully reflects what our service men and women should be doing, sending the Navy to deal with French fishermen is perhaps not the best use of our resources.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, very much for their helpful and constructive comments. On behalf of the Government, I also thank them for their tribute to our Armed Forces personnel and, as the noble Baroness so rightly pointed out, their families. Our thoughts are certainly always with our Armed Forces personnel and their families when there is any deployment at all. The noble Lord and the noble Baroness raised a number of points, which I shall try to deal with as comprehensively as I can.

The noble Lord, Lord Touhig, raised the issue of encouraging political dialogue and how we might contribute to the need for construction and engineering skills. I say to him that the whole reason that the United Kingdom is contributing to this United Nations mission in Mali is that the underlying instability means that it is very difficult, in the face of that turbulence, to move on to the more positive and constructive issues to which he refers. We recognise that while our contribution to the security response is important, security interventions alone will not address the instability in the Sahel. We continue to advocate for state-led progress on the peace process in Mali, and for political and institutional reform in the wider region, with greater ownership and leadership of reform efforts by G5 Governments. I reassure the noble Lord that he raises an important point, but the priority at the moment is trying to address the issues of instability and lack of security.

The noble Lord and the noble Baroness also raised the issue of women. It is the case that women have been badly impacted by the consequences of the instability and turmoil. However, it is also the case that there is some cause for optimism. Over the past five years, we have seen progress. Widespread fighting between the parties has not returned, the reconstitution of a national army from members of the former armed groups and—this is the important point—the inclusion of women in the peace process, including MINUSMA’s role as mediator, have been critical to this relative stability. Important points were made about the position of women, how such civil unrest can impact on them and how we can do our best, as a contributing country, to encourage a more enhanced role for women.

The noble Lord and the noble Baroness asked what our objectives are. The Foreign Secretary recently chaired a review process looking at all the strands of the UK ODA budget. The review safeguarded support for five ODA priorities: the very poorest—that is, poverty reduction for the bottom billion; climate change; girls’ education, which will, I hope, reassure the noble Lord and the noble Baroness; Covid-19; and the role of Britain globally as a force for good.

The noble Lord also raised the important issue of how we work with other forces from contributing countries and allies. Indeed, the noble Baroness also talked about that and about our security relationships. I commend them both: they have touched on something really significant. At the heart of this is the fact that we are part of a United Nations mission and we are proud to play our role. We want to be a positive influence to help those countries that have suffered such insurgency and insurrection, particularly Mali, to move on to a better and more stable course. We want that because it is good not just for Mali but for the broader security of the region and the world at large. As the noble Lord alluded to, if we can bring greater stability to that area, we can begin to introduce more robust political processes. If we look at the country’s infrastructure, a great deal of progress has been made in taking the country forward.

The noble Lord and the noble Baroness will be aware that we work closely with France in particular. We are part of the Operation Barkhane mission, which is operative in the Sahel. Unlike MINUSMA, Barkhane is a counterterrorism mission, of course. It has a different purpose but it is an example of the importance of working with allies whom we know well, with whom we get on and with whom we are very proud to work in partnership to improve the overall situation.

I think that I have managed to cover the points made by the noble Lord and the noble Baroness. If I have omitted anything, I shall have a look at Hansard and undertake to rectify it. Again, I express to both the noble Lord and the noble Baroness my appreciation of their constructive comments, particularly their recognition of the tremendous role that our Armed Forces are asked to play.

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Morris of Bolton) (Con)]

My Lords, we now come to the 20 minutes allocated for Back-Bench questions.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns (Con)]

My Lords, I also pay tribute to those who serve in Mali and wish them a safe return.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham, referred to the report of our Select Committee on International Relations and Defence, The UK and Sub-Saharan Africa. In it, we welcome

“the UK’s increased attention to instability in the Sahel”

and its decision to contribute troops to the MINUSMA mission. However, we received evidence that

“the UK still had ‘lessons to learn from Iraq and Afghanistan’, including those relating to equipment, regional understanding and engagement with local counterparts.”

Can my noble friend the Minister say what the MoD has learned from that experience, which is now informing its approach to the support we are giving to MINUSMA’s important mission?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for raising a very important point. I also pay tribute to her role as chairman of the International Relations and Defence Committee and to its very positive and useful report, The UK and Sub-Saharan Africa: Prosperity, Peace and Development Co-Operation. My noble friend was in discussion with the FCDO. I think she received a fairly full letter of clarification about the points she felt were not addressed. I hope that has gone some way towards reassuring her of the Government’s good intent to make a positive contribution in this region of Africa.

Preparation and equipment are very important. There has been analysis of the tasks the UK contingent will conduct on mission, particularly the terrain and the threat they will face. For example, the deploying vehicles have been specifically selected to address these singular and challenging demands. There will be a number of vehicle types used for different tasks. They have previously been tested on operations and will include the Foxhound, Ridgback, Coyote and Jackal. When I read these, I wondered whether we were talking about a zoo, but we are talking about mechanical devices on wheels that will clearly be a very important support to our forces out in Mali. These vehicles have been chosen for a specific purpose. The analysis identified these types of vehicles as being most appropriate for the terrain and the tasks faced.

Our Armed Forces are professional and well trained. This is a United Nations mission, so they are under the command of Lieutenant General Gyllensporre, who is the Swedish commanding officer. I say to the noble Baroness that, yes, previous conflicts have identified the particular challenges of operating in difficult terrain—in coping with extremes of heat or cold—and lessons have been learned from that. I reassure my noble friend that our Armed Forces and their commanding officers are very mindful of that before asking troops to deploy to any region in the world.

[Lord Craig of Radley (CB) [V]]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that more than 200 MINUSMA troops have been killed and others wounded? This deployment to a faraway country of which we know little is risky. For the record, and to reassure the families and loved ones of any UK casualty, will the Minister explain why deploying in Mali fully justifies these acknowledged dangers to our forces? Have our rules of engagement been agreed with the UN force commander?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The noble and gallant Lord raises a very important point. We very much hope our Armed Forces remain safe and that they will not come under threat of loss of life or of injury. He is right to inquire why they are there, what we expect them to do and how we expect them to do it. As I said earlier, this is part of our contribution to the security response. We recognise that security interventions alone will not address the instability in the Sahel and continue to advocate for state-led progress in the peace process in Mali. As I said earlier, that involves political and institutional reform in the wider region.

We believe it is very important the United Kingdom supports the United Nations in attempting to deal with this area of instability. It matters because if that instability is not addressed then it has an effect of contagion. Instability is a threat that can spread. It can allow hostile operators to flourish and can encourage them to take their unwelcome activities to other countries. That could include the United Kingdom. There is an underlying purpose and we believe it is important that the United Kingdom supports the United Nations in this important mission.

I said earlier that the mission, being a United Nations mission, is led by a civilian—a special representative of the United Nations Secretary-General. The peace- keeping force element involves our own military and highly trained soldiers. Because it is a peacekeeping mission, and our forces are principally concerned with reconnaissance, this is clearly slightly different from an operation such as Operation Barkhane. But our force will provide critical capabilities at a vital time. MINUSMA was selected as a mission on the basis that it was where the UK could provide maximum benefit based on the expertise the UK Armed Forces have to offer. I reassure the noble and gallant Lord that this is a carefully constructed contribution from the UK; it is for a specific period; it involves an identified, set number of personnel; and it is a contained contribution.

[Lord Boateng (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the struggle against poverty and for development in the Sahel requires peace and security in that increasingly troubled region. No country has invested more in development in ECOWAS than the United Kingdom. So, will the Minister recognise that, in addition to enjoying the support and appreciation of these brave men and women this House offers, the whole of the ECOWAS region, anglophone and francophone, welcomes their deployment? Will the Minister also take the opportunity of the review of ODA and the newly created FCDO to strengthen our military diplomacy in our missions in Africa as part of our development offer?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for alluding to an important point. He is right; I outlined earlier the principal objectives identified by the Foreign Secretary for ODA. In respect of our military activity, it is important we align these two so that there is a complementary effect. He is correct that these are not problems that one solution will address; there has to be a multifaceted approach.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, as we have heard, this is a most dangerous peacekeeping mission, which has seen 220 fatalities already, together with many injuries. I welcome the range of vehicles to be provided as part of force protection, but that will not be the only element of force protection required. Is the Minister in a position to give us more detail on that matter?

Returning to the matter raised by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, the rules of engagement are extremely important in a theatre of the kind we are discussing. Will the forces there deployed be acting under the rules of engagement of the United Kingdom or the United Nations?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My understanding is that the direct line of command will be to the overall commander, Lieutenant-General Gyllensporre. But, obviously, our deployment unit has a commanding officer as well. As for specific rules of engagement, these would not normally be disclosed, but I seek to reassure the noble Lord that there is clarity as to why our deployment is there, what it is there to do and how it is intended it should do that.

[Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con)]

I declare my interest as a member of the Army Reserve. I would like to explore the Government’s attitude to risk. After years of campaigning in Iraq and Afghanistan, risk was mitigated through a sophisticated use of ISTAR, enhanced medical capabilities and air cover operations to name but a few. But these mitigations are unlikely to be as sophisticated or mature in Mali. Are the Government prepared to take more risk, as many in the military would like them to do, or are we going to have to limit the scale of our operations in Mali, even if, ultimately, that means we will limit the impact the UK can have?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

We take assessment of risk extremely seriously and we will keep mitigation and management of risk under continuous review. On the specific issue of medevac capability, as in all United Nations missions, United Nations member states are relied on to provide the nations’ capabilities, including helicopters and aeromedical evacuation teams for the benefit of all United Nations troops on MINUSMA. The facility is there. It is the collective responsibility of the United Nations to provide that. We constantly assess risk and keep mitigation and management of risk under review.

[Viscount Waverley (CB) [V]]

My Lords, common interest with France, a close ally, is welcome co-operation. The Sahel belt has long been a hotbed of Islamists, separatists and appalling banditry, with recent unrest in Niger and Katsina state in Nigeria, in addition to that in Mali and beyond. The Minister stated that instability could spread but suggested that the United Kingdom’s involvement would be for a limited period. However, will the Government urgently join in planning and implementing a Sahel-wide strategy—[inaudible]—the regional mix of the US and Morocco, having engaged in a major arms deal, together with the just-announced recognition, has the potential to further regional alienation, by some, of Western Sahara—by the US and Morocco.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I slightly missed a bit in the middle of the noble Viscount’s question, but I will try to deal with the overall concept of his question as to what we are doing in the Sahel. Our objectives are to contribute to improving the situation. We recognise a number of different actors already present in the Sahel. We aim to work with them to better deliver for the people of the region. The UK’s deployment to MINUSMA is a vital part of our work in the Sahel to build stability, bolster conflict resolution, improve the humanitarian response and strengthen partnerships between the international community and regional Governments.

[Lord Hain (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I agree with the Minister that this is an important UN mission that we must support. I associate myself with my noble friend Lord Touhig’s remarks. The Sahel region is beset by an increasingly dangerous and violent Islamist insurgency, and in the east of Mali militants repeatedly attack French, European and local armed forces, including 50 killed in 2017 in a suicide attack on a military base. The Minister said that lessons had been learned from previous missions. How certain can she be that Mali will be very different from, for example, Helmand? I clearly recall similar assurances to those she has given being given to us in the Cabinet in 2006 on a straightforward mission, yet 454 soldiers, including British ones, were subsequently killed in combat operations against the Taliban.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

That was indeed a very sad outcome. It is one we remain mindful of, and that we cannot and will not forget. The answer to the noble Lord’s question is probably best explained by returning to the role of the United Nations, because this is what we are part of. The United Kingdom believes in peacekeeping as a way to stabilise and contain conflict. Our contribution to MINUSMA, alongside our enduring commitment to the United Nations’ peacekeeping operation in, for example, Cyprus, and the staff officers we have employed in other operations, is the UK playing its part in a multinational effort to contain the worst consequences of violent conflict and to help build confidence in the political processes.

As I said, we constantly assess and after 18 months we will review this mission. We will analyse what has been happening and assess our role as a contributor to the mission. The noble Lord is right to be alert to what we must always be on our guard against. We want to be very sure that our presence is positive and that the contribution we make makes a difference to providing a more positive future for Mali. That is something we will constantly keep under consideration.

[Lord Marlesford (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I echo the apprehension of the noble Lord, Lord Hain. We have sent only some 300 of our elite soldiers to fight against the Islamist terrorists in Mali. We must remember that it took more than three years and massive military support to subdue the Islamic State in Syria and Iraq when it sprang into action in April 2014. We must also remember that the French have been battling against the Islamists who seek to overthrow the secular Government in Mali since September 2013. Can we be sure that, if necessary, the British will add to their commitment and their force to see that this job is done at least in the case of Mali? Africa is now a big target of the Islamic State, which would put paid to the hopes of the African people.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The last part of my noble friend’s question encapsulates why the United Nations is there and why we are proud to make to our contribution to that mission. Our force may be 300, but that is part of a force of thousands, reflected by the other contributors to the mission. My noble friend is quite correct: there is a challenge—we do not diminish that—but it is best addressed in partnership with like-minded nations working together. Acting under the umbrella of the United Nations is a constructive and positive way in which to do that.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, on March 12, in evidence to the inquiry on sub-Saharan Africa of the International Relations and Defence Select Committee, which has been referred to already, General Sir Richard Barrons said that the UK’s role in MINUSMA, the UN peacekeeping mission in Mali, was

“not in support of a strategy of any kind other than ‘We should do a bit more UN peacekeeping’”.

When the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, answered my Question on 17 June, he said that our strategic approach would

“help tackle the underlying causes of poverty and conflict in the region”

but he said nothing about the role of jihadists from both al-Qaeda and Isis, who have been referred to by a number of noble Lords. What has changed since General Barrons made his remarks in March about the lack of a strategy? Given the history of jihadism in Mali, including terrible attacks on women and the destruction of Sufi monuments in Timbuktu, will the Government be clear about who and what we are fighting in Mali and why, and reflect on the dangers of mission creep?

[Baroness Goldie]

I go back to what we are doing and why we are there. We are part of this United Nations mission. It is important to remember the umbrella character of that mission. I fully agree with the noble Lord that mission creep would be undesirable, but there is a minimal risk of that happening for the reasons which I stated earlier. This is a mission for our UK deployment of finite time—it is three years; there will be a review after 18 months. It is a fixed number of personnel; it is a peacekeeping mission—our role is one of reconnaissance. There are therefore clear boundaries round what we are doing there. That is not to say that our presence is ineffectual or not capable of achieving anything substantive—I would totally disagree with that as an assessment. As part of this broader commitment organised by the United Nations, we are contributing to addressing the issues which have made the country so challenging and dangerous. The noble Lord is quite correct. I do not seek in any way to diminish the threat, the dangers or the difficulties—they are real and they are there—but I am proud to say that, in so far as the United Kingdom is concerned, we have highly-trained, very capable and professional soldiers. I am confident that they will make a singular and important contribution to the broader objectives of the mission.

House adjourned at 9.25 pm.

War Widows Pensions

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Thursday 10th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Crawley (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I declare my interest as a vice-president of the War Widows’ Association.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con) [V]]

My Lords, the Government continue to examine alternative methods to see whether we can mitigate the impact on those survivors who remarried or cohabited before the introduction of the pensions-for-life changes in 2015. Much progress has been made and the issue remains a priority for the Ministry of Defence, but it is very complex.

[Baroness Crawley (Lab) [V]]

I thank the noble Baroness for her Answer, but I am very disappointed. I am sure that she herself is tired of having to repeat it. It is shameful that 200 war widows are still waiting for their pensions to be reinstated. In the last five years, 100 widows have, sadly, died while waiting. What has happened to the plan that was meant to have gone from the Secretary of State for Defence to the Treasury, and when will we see a timetable for meaningful action in this matter?

[Baroness Goldie (Con) [V]]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question. I pay tribute to her commitment and passion on this issue and I understand her frustration. It might help her if I explain the nature of the complexity. Quite simply, it has been the policy of successive Governments not to make retrospective payments by government to individuals. That has been an established position and I think that many Members of your Lordships’ Chamber who have been Ministers will understand that. It means that, although I, the Secretary of State and the Permanent Secretary at the Ministry of Defence and the Chief of the Defence Staff all personally want to try to find a solution to this, we are not able to act unilaterally. We are investigating a number of options, but as yet none of these has been confirmed as avoiding the challenges to which I have referred.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

My Lords, what bearing does the Minister think the Armed Forces covenant has on this issue? The covenant, quite rightly, says:

“Families … play a vital role in supporting the operational effectiveness of our Armed Forces.”


So our moral obligation is not just to members of the Armed Forces; it is also to their families. Times and attitudes change. Rules from the past are no longer regarded as acceptable. We should not let concern about retrospection be a barrier to what we all now regard as the right thing to do.

[Baroness Goldie (Con) [V]]

Of course, I reaffirm that the Government recognise the unique commitment that service families make to our country and we remain sympathetic to the circumstances of those who remarried and cohabited before 1 April 2015. But the Ministry of Defence is not able to act unilaterally because, in doing that, it could well compromise the position of other government departments and it might unintentionally interfere with or prejudice active litigation in which other departments are involved. That is why I thought it important to explain to the noble Baroness, Lady Crawley, the nature of the complexity. This is not something that the current Government have dreamed up and it is not an artificial obstruction that the Ministry of Defence has created; it is, I am afraid, the consequence of established policy covering such matters as payments when a request is made to make these retrospectively.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

But does the Minister understand the contrast between the actions of a Government, who, up till yesterday, were willing to break the law but today will not modify slightly a policy to benefit 200 citizens whose spouses gave their service on behalf of this nation?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Goldie (Con) [V]]

It is not a question of whether the MoD chooses to break the law, which it would never wish to do; it is a question of established government policy. The noble Lord has been a Minister in government and I think he will understand why that policy exists. That is why the MoD cannot act unilaterally on this. It has been investigating a range of options. I have discussed this matter personally with the Secretary of State, the Chief of the Defence Staff and the Permanent Secretary to try to find a way round the obstacles. That means exploring a range of options, including hardship payments and ex gratia and statutory schemes. That is what we are currently engaged in doing, but these are complex, challenging issues and they have to be dealt with carefully.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

I repeat the request for brevity.

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, as president of the War Widows’ Association, I am enraged by the failure of government to find a solution. Is it the Government’s intention to procrastinate for so long that these few elderly widows will all be dead?

[Baroness Goldie (Con) [V]]

No. I say to my noble friend that of course it is not. I have no wish to be evasive. That is why, at the risk of incurring the displeasure of the Deputy Speaker, I thought it important to give the noble Baroness, Lady Crawley, as full an explanation as I could of the complexities. I am being very frank with the Chamber. This is not about a lack of will on the part of the MoD to find a solution; it is about recognising the challenges of getting a route towards a solution. That is the difficulty. These are not manufactured complexities; they affect the whole of government.

[Lord Ramsbotham (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I salute the noble Baronesses, Lady Crawley and Lady Fookes, and it is an honour to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Baroness Fookes, who has given so much to the cause. I share her disappointment that the Government have not found a solution to this problem, which has been on the table for so long.

[Baroness Goldie (Con) [V]]

I merely seek to reassure the noble Lord that active investigations are taking place, options are being explored and indeed, the President of the War Widows’ Association met with the Secretary of State on 30 November. Therefore, very recently he was able to explain to her personally that this is nothing to do with lack of political will or of a personal determination to find a solution. It is a question of trying to navigate a way through the reefs and shoals of the complexities.

[Lord Touhig (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, in an interview in The Yorkshire Post on 8 May, the Veterans Minister, Mr Mercer, said:

“You’ve got to remember that the military is as much about families as anything else … which is why we take families welfare so seriously.”


The whole House will applaud him for that. Therefore, can I ask the Minister if she will go back to her Department and remind the Veterans Minister of his words, and together park their tanks on the Treasury lawn and insist that the Chancellor of the Exchequer do as my noble friend Lady Crawley and others have asked and resolve this problem once and for all?

[Baroness Goldie (Con) [V]]

I echo the sentiments of the noble Lord and share the sentiments of my colleague Johnny Mercer. The noble Lord is realistic in recognising that the difficulties to which I have referred are not of the MoD’s making. He gives a powerful message. I am sure it will be relayed, and I shall play my part in promoting its relaying.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, I too am a vice-president of the War Widows’ Association. As a military wife I moved 24 times, so I had no chance of a career. Military wives were totally dependent on their husbands’ incomes and pensions. It was particularly distressing when the pension the husband had built up for his widow was cancelled if she remarried. With so few widows still in the frame of this cruel policy, how can the Government use retrospection as an excuse for inaction when the 2019 Northern Ireland victims’ payments Act allows payments to be made in respect of past periods?

[Baroness Goldie (Con) [V]]

I understand the noble Baroness’s frustration and anger and I have no wish to seek to diffuse that. All I can say is that the difficulty to which I have referred real: it is not of the MoD’s making, and the MoD is trying to find a way round it. I am not familiar with the scheme to which she refers, but I shall make inquiries about that.

[The Lord Bishop of Peterborough [V]]

My Lords, David Cameron, under whose premiership the new rules came in, has admitted that the current situation is a mistake and was not intended. It is manifestly unjust and betrays those who have served our country. The ridiculous rule that people could rectify the situation by divorcing and then remarrying undermines the institution of marriage. Does this not make it entirely justifiable to overturn, or at least suspend, the policy to which the Minister refers?

[Baroness Goldie (Con) [V]]

I thank the right reverend Prelate; he too delivers a powerful message. I totally uphold the institution of marriage. He refers to an anomaly that many of us find completely unacceptable, and I can only reiterate what I have said. I undertake to ensure that his sentiments are conveyed to the department, and they will form part of our endeavour to find a solution.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Lexden) (Con)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has now elapsed.

Trident Nuclear Programme

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Monday 7th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether a new United Kingdom warhead is required to extend the Trident nuclear programme to 2049; and if so, by when it will be required.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con) [V]]

My Lords, in order to ensure that the Government maintain an effective deterrent throughout the commission of the Dreadnought class submarines and into the future, the Secretary of State for Defence formally announced to Parliament on 25 February 2020 that the UK will replace its nuclear warhead. The replacement warhead programme will be delivered to a schedule that ensures that our deterrence posture under Operation Relentless endures uninterrupted. I am withholding specific information about the in-service date to safeguard national security.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for her Answer. I am delighted that we are pressing ahead with this. It is a part of our armoury that is used every single day in deterring, so I am pleased about it. However, I have great concerns about AWE. Repeated ministerial deferrals post 2010 have resulted in decay of nuclear expertise and cost escalation within AWE, as has been noted by the NAO. Could the Minister confirm, after the failures of the MENSA, Hydrus and Pegasus projects to deliver on time and within budget, and the scathing assessment by the NAO earlier this year, that AWE as currently structured is able to deliver such a complex programme on time and at cost?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Goldie (Con) [V]]

The MoD routinely evaluates and reviews all major contracts as they near their end dates. It conducted a review of the governance model in place for the management of AWE plc, and it was following that review that the MoD decided that AWE should revert to a direct government-ownership model. We believe that will simplify and further strengthen the relationship between the MoD and AWE.

[Baroness Bryan of Partick (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that the Government’s defence priorities include cyber and space projects, and that they continue to recognise, as they said in the 2018 defence review, that security challenges involve non-state actors, migration, pandemics and environmental pressures? How will the Trident programme fit their own priorities or help to tackle any of those threats?

[Baroness Goldie (Con) [V]]

I agree with the noble Baroness’s assessment of the threats of cyber. That is why the recent defence financial settlement reflects the importance that the Government attach to both cyber and space activity. The nuclear deterrent, which was overwhelmingly mandated by Parliament in 2016, is a very important but separate part of our capability. It is there to deter, and it has proved to be an effective deterrent.

[Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston (Non-Afl)]

The UK Trident nuclear programme is at the heart of our enduring and lasting relationship with the United States of America. Can the Minister undertake that any discussions on the future of that programme will articulate and take into account the enduring importance of Scotland’s contribution to the United Kingdom union, the union’s defence and the NATO alliance’s defence?

[Baroness Goldie (Con) [V]]

I thank the noble Baroness for making a very important point. She is correct that the Trident missile system is essential to our deterrent. That is why we work closely with the United States in that respect. She is also correct to point out the significance of defence to the United Kingdom. Faslane, where the deterrent is located, is now the UK’s submarine headquarters. That is part of a general pattern of vital defence activity which is spread throughout the United Kingdom and which Scotland benefits from significantly.

[Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con)]

My Lords, as a timely reminder, the House of Commons voted relatively recently by a majority of 355 to effectively renew Parliament’s commitment to the nuclear deterrent by authorising the Dreadnought programme. With that in mind, the announcement of some £24.1 billion of extra funding for the MoD is most welcome, but can my noble friend confirm that there has been no Treasury sleight of hand and a corresponding—or even any—reduction in the Dreadnought contingency fund?

[Baroness Goldie (Con) [V]]

I reassure my noble friend that the Dreadnought programme continues to run to schedule. As he will be aware, an overall budget of £31 billion, with the £10 billion contingency fund, has been allocated to it. The remaining allocation of funding is still to be determined within the MoD following the recent settlement.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, the extension of the Trident programme is clear and, as the noble Lord, Lord Lancaster, pointed out, it has recently been reaffirmed by the other place. Could the noble Baroness tell us how Her Majesty’s Government view the extension of Trident in terms of their priorities for the RevCon of the NPT?

[Baroness Goldie (Con) [V]]

I did not quite get the last bit of that question but, perhaps instead of the noble Baroness repeating it, I will undertake to look at Hansard and give her a full reply.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

I asked about priorities for the NPT; if we are extending Trident, how do we fit that with the NPT commitments?

[Baroness Goldie (Con) [V]]

I thank the noble Baroness for repeating the question. The Government take the view that, under the non-proliferation treaty, we remain compliant with international law and in compliance with Article VI of that treaty. We have a very good record of contributing to nuclear disarmament; we have managed to reduce stocks by about 50% from their Cold War peak and we are the only recognised nuclear weapons state to have reduced our deterrent capability to a single nuclear weapons system.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister confirmed to me only the other day that we have a policy of continuous at-sea deterrence, which we all very much welcome. Can she confirm that we now have sufficient submarines for that purpose and, no less importantly, sufficient crews to keep them at sea?

[Baroness Goldie (Con) [V]]

I reassure my noble friend that, despite all challenges, we have maintained our essential defence operations, including the operation of our continuous at-sea deterrent.

[Lord Ramsbotham (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I have mentioned several times in this House, in connection with Trident, the two definitions of affordable: first, can you afford it, and, secondly, can you afford to give up what you have to give up to be able to afford it? Can the Minister assure the House that the Government considered this second definition when assessing the recently announced increased resources for defence?

[Baroness Goldie (Con) [V]]

I confirm that the Government reviewed all relevant issues in determining that settlement. Of primary and perhaps principal importance is the defence of the country and the safety of its citizens. That is why the defence settlement reflects these priorities.

[Lord Touhig (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the recent announcement of an extra £16.5 billion for defence is welcome, but the £13 billion black hole in the defence budget is still there. In terms of the funding for the Trident replacement programme, for more than a decade the Ministry of Defence and the Treasury have disagreed about funding Trident, the former arguing it should be the Treasury’s responsibility as it was in the past. Will the forthcoming integrated review address this matter once and for all?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Goldie (Con) [V]]

As I have previously indicated to the noble Lord, I cannot pre-empt what the integrated review will say. However, a practice has clearly arisen whereby the MoD is considered responsible for the provision and management of the nuclear deterrent and the Treasury reflects that with funding. That is why the financial package for Dreadnought comprises an identified budget of £31 billion and a contingency fund of £10 billion. The other elements of the deterrent will be determined in due course by the MoD in the allocation of the budget settlement.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Brougham and Vaux) (Con)]

The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, is not here, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Singh of Wimbledon.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB) [V]]

My Lords, nuclear deterrence may have made some sense during the Cold War of the 1950s. Today, there is no direct threat of invasion to our shores. In an inverted meaning of “defence”, we already have a military presence at 145 sites in 42 countries, a number second only to the United States. Does the Minister agree that this strutting of military might across the globe has nothing to do with defence?

[Baroness Goldie (Con) [V]]

With respect to the noble Lord, I completely disagree. I feel that the measure and calibre of the effectiveness of a deterrent has been reflected over the years. I said once before that the perhaps paradoxical character of a deterrent is that its lack of use confirms its efficacy of purpose. The threats we face are becoming ever more complex and diverse and are increasing in scale. We have the deterrent to deter the most extreme threats to our national security and way of life which cannot be deterred by other means. That is why the Government are absolutely clear that we need the nuclear deterrent for the foreseeable future.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Brougham and Vaux) (Con)]

My Lords, all the supplementary questions have been asked.

Nuclear Weapons

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Wednesday 25th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

My Lords, Her Majesty’s Government keep their nuclear deterrents policy and posture under continual review, taking into consideration their commitments to maintaining the United Kingdom’s nuclear deterrent for as long as the global security situation demands, and to the long-term goal of a world without nuclear weapons.

[Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her reply. There is common ground with the Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons because that is the shorter term goal, too. However, with the collapse of so many non-proliferation treaties and the failure of the 2015 round of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty to reach a consensus, is the Minister confident that the next round of the non-proliferation treaty, which must take place before April, will reach some consensus as a way forward? The 122 countries that signed the Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons are desperate that nuclear weapons states are not making sufficient efforts to fulfil their obligations under pillar 3. What dialogues have the Government had to date on achieving a consensus and success at the next round of the NPT?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The Government remain constantly engaged. There is probably a fundamental difference of philosophy between an attitude towards a non-proliferation treaty and an attitude towards a prohibition treaty. Certainly, the Government believe that the non-proliferation treaty has been successful because it is built on foundations of consensus and delivers tangible benefits for all its signatories. It continues to make a significant contribution to international security and stability, and that is what this Government want to promote and support.

[The Lord Bishop of St Albans]

My Lords, recently I and a number of other Bishops issued a public letter welcoming the important ratification of the UN Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons. Can the Minister comment on the moral inconsistency, whereby we have rightly taken a stand on outlawing cluster bombs and landmines but not outlawing nuclear weapons, which, as we know, are far more destructive when they are used?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

At the heart of the question asked by the right reverend Prelate is the relevance of the term “deterrent”. Very often people measure the deterrent a failure because it has not been used. I would argue the exact opposite—that the measure of a deterrent’s success is that it has not been used, because it is doing its job of deterring.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

Can the Minister confirm the Government’s continued adherence to a policy of continuous at sea deterrents—namely, one of our Trident submarines, permanently on patrol and ready to reply, should our supreme national interest so require?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

Yes, I can confirm to my noble friend our commitment to the continuous at sea deterrent. When the Prime Minister launched the integrated review, he specifically reaffirmed the UK’s commitment to that deterrent and the UK’s support of NATO.

[Lord Ramsbotham (CB) [V]]

My Lords, bearing in mind how much the cost of the nuclear deterrent has destabilised the defence budget, have HMG considered relieving it of this cost as part of the welcome recent addition to the resources allocated to defence and security?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I would respond to the noble Lord by observing that the Government recognise that the cost of maintaining and renewing the deterrent is substantial. Equally, the Government are clear that the safety and security of the United Kingdom is a long-term issue and immediate economic pressures are not sufficient rationale for taking risks with the security of the nation and British public far into the future. The costs have been and will continue to be subjected to cross-government scrutiny, but the underlying rationale for the deterrent is the safety of the country and its citizens.

[Baroness Blower (Lab) [V]]

I refer noble Lords to my interests as reported in the register, as chair of the Nuclear Education Trust. As the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, said, the TPNW comes into effect on 22 January 2021. The list of prohibitions includes use, stockpiling, testing, production, manufacture, stationing and installation of nuclear weapons. In that context, can the Minister tell us what current government thinking is about the possibility of defence diversification to provide alternative good-quality jobs for those currently engaged in the process of replacing the existing nuclear arsenal? We know that science and industry can respond very quickly when necessary, as we have seen during the Covid pandemic.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I simply observe that the commitment to the deterrent is very significant in terms of defence capability, planning and cost, and is a long-term commitment. We deploy our best scientific and technical skills to that programme, and there is no proposal to distract from that activity.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the Minister suggested that there is probably a different philosophy between those who believe in a non-proliferation regime and those who believe in a prohibition regime. Can she tell the House what work the Government are doing to take us down the nuclear ladder and reduce the amount of nuclear capabilities, because surely the aim we all have is a multilateral solution to ending nuclear weapons?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

Let me offer some cheer to the noble Baroness by agreeing with her last point. The difficulty lies not so much in the objective, which is shared by many people, but in the journey to reach it. That is why the United Kingdom believes that the non-proliferation treaty not only offers focus but is a treaty entered into by all the nuclear states. I am not aware of any nuclear state joining the prohibition treaty. It is entered into because those nuclear states believe that the non-proliferation treaty provides focus and verification, and that it has a record of delivering.

[Lord Bates (Con)]

On 24 January 2021, it will be 75 years since the General Assembly of the United Nations first pledged to rid the world of nuclear weapons, while meeting at Central Hall, Westminster. Is my noble friend aware that many of us who have argued vigorously against unilateral nuclear disarmament feel passionately about the need for greater progress in multilateral disarmament? I welcome the UK’s leadership in reducing our nuclear stockpile. Will the Government use the upcoming 75th anniversary to urge other nuclear states to follow suit?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

As always, my noble friend makes an interesting and informed contribution. He underlines my earlier point about why we have the deterrent and what the test of a successful deterrent is. I assure him that the United Kingdom Government support multilateral nuclear disarmament, but we believe that the non-proliferation treaty is the most effective means of progressing that objective.

[Lord Touhig (Lab) [V]]

We welcome the long overdue commitment on defence spending announced last week but, according to the National Audit Office, poor management of Britain’s nuclear weapons programme has led to infrastructure projects being delayed by six years and costs increasing by £1.3 billion. Can the Minister say how much of the £16 billion increase in spending will be used to complete the nuclear programme upgrades?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I cannot attach specific sums of money to the particular components to which the noble Lord refers. He will understand the Government’s commitment to the Dreadnought programme, an extensive, ambitious and challenging programme. We remain on track to deliver the first of class into service in the early 2030s, which we will do within the costs envelope announced in the National Security Strategy and Strategic Defence and Security Review 2015. That estimated the cost to be £31 billion and set aside a £10 billion contingency fund.

[Viscount Waverley (CB) [V]]

Which makes for better policy, and why, when there are force expansions by adversaries in capability, capacity, doctrine and battle-readiness: on the one hand, reinforcing our seat on the Security Council, NATO leverage and special relationship status, or, on the other, recognising our new status as a lesser-tier country but with a strategy of balancing the extent of the threat with nuclear disarmament and adopting more of a practical focus on IT capabilities and retaining 0.7% as our foreign aid contribution?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

Responding from the perspective of defence, I do not accept the premise of the noble Viscount’s question. When we are dealing with threats to security and the safety of our country and our citizens, we go down all routes—security routes, MoD roots and diplomatic routes—and they are all vital. The recent settlement offered by the Government to the MoD reflects the importance that we attach to that.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.

Armed Forces: Covid-19 Deployment

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Thursday 12th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con) [V]]

I thank the noble Lord very much for his tribute to the Armed Forces, which I am sure is endorsed throughout the Chamber. In 2020, there were 420 MACA requests, 341 of which were Covid-related. The MoD is currently supporting 41. As to future projections, we stand ready to offer support, but are awaiting invitations to provide it. On the important matter of the vaccine, I confirm that the Ministry of Defence has already deployed military personnel to the Vaccine Taskforce, supporting the central organisation and exploring how Defence could bring logistical support to the national rollout of a future vaccine.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, I similarly pay tribute to the Armed Forces in this week of remembrance. Could the Minister say what impact work on Covid might have on the other activities of the Armed Forces and whether training is carrying on as normal? Clearly other threats will not decline.

[Baroness Goldie (Con) [V]]

In relation to our current obligations, we have conducted prudent planning against a range of potential risks facing the nation over winter. We have a package of 7,500 personnel placed at heightened readiness to enable rapid response to HMG requests at this time of national crisis. Clearly the pandemic has disrupted some activity, but the MoD is endeavouring to ensure that we return to normal, in so far as that is consistent with the safety of our personnel. We ensure that whatever our personnel are asked to do is compliant with Public Health England.

[Lord Lancaster of Kimbolton (Con)]

I declare an interest as a member of the Army Reserve. Living and working in the local community and with a host of civilian skills, reservists are ideally suited to MACA tasks, but are underutilised because there is a perception that, while cheap to hold, they are expensive to use. Can my noble friend look at ways to incentivise the single services to make better use of reserves?

[Baroness Goldie (Con) [V]]

With their unique skills, the reservists have played a pivotal role in the response to Covid-19. They have been part of that response at every level. At one point, we had 2,300 Army reservists mobilised as part of Operation Rescript and the MoD’s contribution to the Covid-19 response. Currently, 340 reservists are mobilised to that operation and we have 100 additional reservists to support wider defence recovery. I pay tribute to their contribution.

[Lord Dannatt (CB) [V]]

I thank the Minister and other noble Lords for their appreciative comments about the use of the Armed Forces during the pandemic. Historically, deployment of the Armed Forces in support of civil authorities has been found from spare capacity within the Armed Forces. Does the Minister acknowledge that the size of the Armed Forces has been considerably reduced in recent years and, therefore, available spare capacity is also much reduced? Will the noble Baroness indicate whether, in the forthcoming integrated security and defence review, future support to civil authorities will become a formal military task and be properly resourced as such?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Goldie (Con) [V]]

I thank the noble Lord, and confirm that the responsibility of the MoD to support MACA requests is taken with the utmost seriousness and, as has been evident from the contribution this year, is responded to with great professionalism and skill. The integrated review is currently on hold and the Government are still to announce when that process, along with the spending review, will be published. I can reassure the noble Lord that the MoD conducted the most extensive research for the input to the review, in the analysis of both what we require now and what we anticipate we will require in the future. Given what we have been through this year, the Government are very sensitive to the significance of the MoD’s capacity to meet MACA requests.

[Baroness Stuart of Edgbaston (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, our Armed Forces are a United Kingdom asset that serve all four nations. Of those 420 requests for military aid to the civil authorities, of which 341 are Covid-related, could the Minister tell noble Lords how many came from England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland? In addition, 1,600 MoD medics are currently embedded in the NHS. Are there any plans to extend that embedding of MoD personnel in the NHS?

[Baroness Goldie (Con) [V]]

I will need to offer to write to the noble Baroness with the specific information she requests. I can confirm that, across the United Kingdom, the MoD, through MACA response, has supported all parts of the United Kingdom, including the devolved Administrations.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op) [V]]

Will the Minister confirm that these schemes are of mutual benefit and that the forces get experience of planning, reconnaissance, deployment and evaluation? Will she say what effect this had had on recruitment? How many extra people have been recruited to our forces as a result?

[Baroness Goldie (Con) [V]]

Yes, the personnel from the MoD participating in MACA responses have had hugely positive emotions in understanding the contribution they are making and seeing at first hand the appreciation of the public for their efforts. On the important issue of recruitment, I am pleased to say to the noble Lord that the intake to the regular Armed Forces in the 12 months to 1 July 2020 was up 12.9% compared with the previous 12 months, which is a very gratifying situation.

[Baroness Warsi (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I declare an interest: I have a child in the Armed Forces. Following on from the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Stuart, the figure of 1,600 was given by the Minister in the other place—these are the medics from the Armed Forces currently embedded in the NHS. Can my noble friend confirm whether this figure includes fifth-year medical students? Perhaps it is an issue she will write to me on. Are there any plans that these students will be graduated early, as happened last year, so they can start to serve on the front line?

[Baroness Goldie (Con) [V]]

[Inaudible.] I shall offer to write to the noble Baroness with detail.

[Lord Houghton of Richmond (CB) [V]]

In times of nationwide civil emergency, the two most relevant military capabilities are a pool of disciplined manpower and a system of command and control, optimised for turning strategic aspirations into co-ordinated tactical action. A recurring lesson from past emergencies, from foot and mouth to Olympic security, indicates that this latter experience is not well understood by Government. Can the Minister confirm to the House that the military’s expertise in command and control is being properly harnessed?

[Baroness Goldie (Con) [V]]

I would like to reassure the noble and gallant Lord that it is. He will understand, from his own knowledge, both the level and extent to which the MoD has provided advice to the highest levels of government. Much of that advice has been welcomed by government precisely because of the attributes that the noble and gallant Lord identified in relation to the MoD and Armed Forces’ experience of command and delivery.

[Lord Balfe (Con)]

As someone who has done a considerable amount of research into, and study of, eastern and central Europe, can I counsel the Minister to avoid using the Armed Forces for anything that resembles coercive control?

[Baroness Goldie (Con) [V]]

I am not quite sure what my noble friend means by that phrase. If he is alluding to the possibility that the military will be asked to step in to enforce law and order, there is absolutely no intention for that to happen.

[Lord Ramsbotham (CB) [V]]

Where are the people who are serving in Liverpool based at present? How far do they have to travel each day?

[Baroness Goldie (Con) [V]]

Approximately 2,000 personnel are currently committed to the mass testing project in Liverpool. As to precisely where they are based, I do not have specific information, but I undertake to write to the noble Lord with that information.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

My Lords, that brings the questions on that Statement to an end. We will move straight on to the next business.

HMS “Queen Elizabeth”

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Wednesday 4th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to change the level of support that will accompany HMS Queen Elizabeth’s deployment to the South China Sea in 2021.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

My Lords, HMS “Queen Elizabeth” will sail on her first operational deployment during 2021. Detailed planning continues, but we have yet to announce our programme or destination. A Statement will be made to Parliament in due course, once planning is complete. All Royal Navy deployments and decisions on support are planned carefully, in line with operating environment, and constantly reviewed over time. The first operational deployment programme of HMS “Queen Elizabeth” will be no exception.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for her Answer. We are in a dangerous world; no one can predict what will happen tomorrow, let alone a few months hence. There are real concerns about Chinese behaviour, and I believe it is right we should show solidarity with our friends in the region. This year, Australia has increased defence spending by a massive 70% and Japan by 8%—a seventh consecutive annual increase. Both countries have cited concerns over China’s aggressive actions. There is a need for strong alliances in the region. Sending a carrier task group is a good way of showing support, but we must not deal in half measures. Since 2010, our military has been grievously damaged. Can the Minister confirm that the “Queen Elizabeth” carrier battle group, deploying to the Indo-Pac region, will have its complete array of ships and aircraft and its air wing, weapons, weapons stocks and support to be able to conduct, if necessary, operations at every level of intensity? Only then can we be sure it will not be called upon to do so.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

As I indicated to the noble Lord, I cannot comment on where the “Queen Elizabeth” is going, how she is going to get there or what route she will take. All of that will be unfolded to Parliament in due course. But the noble Lord makes an important point about the purpose of our military and naval capability. Certainly, I want to reassure him that HMS “Queen Elizabeth” will operate as part of a maritime task group, which will include allies and will be tailored to meet the required task. The destinations and precise number and mix of vessels deployed will depend on the operational circumstances in 2021.

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, the deployment of HMS “Queen Elizabeth” to the South China Sea would show that Britain is prepared to make a contribution to the protection of freedom of navigation through the South China Sea, which is vital to protect rules-based free trade in the region. Does the Minister agree that our involvement in naval operations in Asia necessitates not only an increase in joint exercises with friendly nations, such as Japan, but deeper co-operation in procurement? Would she also agree that this strengthens the case to pursue opportunities to collaborate where such countries have similar requirements?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I say to my noble friend that he is correct that the UK has enduring interests in the Indo-Pacific and south-east Asian regions. That is without prejudice to what the “Queen Elizabeth” may or may not do. But he is also correct to identify that we are committed to maintaining regional security, and we are certainly committed to asserting rights to freedom of navigation and overflight, as laid out in the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. We continue to challenge any coastal nation’s excessive maritime claims.

[Lord Boyce (CB) [V]]

My Lords, the deployment of our carrier strike group next year is to be welcomed. If that is to include the Indo-Pacific, would the Minister confirm that the opportunity will be taken to refresh our ties with the five-power defence arrangements? Would she also agree that, if there are not already plans to do so, there would be great merit in establishing links with the Quadrilateral Security Dialogue, known as the Quad, consisting of the United States, Australia, Japan and India, and that, furthermore, we could act as a catalyst in bringing the FPDA and the Quad together, which would both be beneficial to our alliances in the region?

[Broness Goldie (Con)]

The noble and gallant Lord identifies a number of significant issues. The unique attributes of the carrier strike group mean that it can provide a global presence wherever the Government require it. The carrier and its supporting ships and aircraft can be configured to support a range of joint operations. We enjoy good relations with the parties to which he has referred and we see our purpose as a global influencer. We will do what we can that is in the best interest of upholding law and setting a good example.

[Lord Judd (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, if the “Queen Elizabeth” is to be deployed as planned, with all the necessary and vital support, what are the implications for our flexibility and speed of response, and for the role that must be played by the Royal Navy in such a response, if something arises elsewhere in the world? Will we become a bit tied and muscle-bound by where we are down there if we do not have the flexibility to respond elsewhere?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I reassure the noble Lord that the deployment of the carrier strike group 21 does not leave the Navy short-handed for other priorities. The Royal Navy has sufficient ships and submarines to meet its global commitments.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister’s predecessor, the noble Earl, Lord Howe, in his inimitable reassuring way used to suggest that the support vessels would come not necessarily from the Royal Navy but from our allies. Have the Government assessed whether the support will be there from our allies in the context of the likely or possible outcomes of the American elections?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The noble Baroness’s crystal ball must be bigger than mine, because the answer to the outcome of the United States presidential election is unclear to me. As she will be aware, the United States is of course a very important ally. It is very significant to our defence relationships across the world. We work with Administrations of whatever hue. That is what we have done in the past and will do in the future.

[Lord Touhig (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, on 13 March last year, during a Question about deploying HMS “Queen Elizabeth” to the Pacific, I said:

“When the Americans deploy a carrier they provide an escort of a cruiser, four destroyers, a carrier wing, a submarine and 7,500 sailors.”—[Official Report, 13/3/19; col. 1019.]


I asked whether Britain can do that. Unfortunately, I am still waiting for an answer.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I am not sure the noble Lord will get one this afternoon, but I will do my best. As I indicated, the carrier strike group is importantly constructed to operate with the support of allies. By way of illustration, within the UK’s capability, the October group exercise brought together all the CSG elements—a carrier, jets, helicopters, escorts and supporting assets. Building on that success, the carrier strike group then participated in the annual NATO exercise Joint Warrior off Scotland, which was a massive exercise and in total involved 6,000 people on land, sea and air. I reassure the noble Lord that the carrier strike group will be a formidable presence.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

My Lords, can the Minister say whether any other deployments of this nature are planned, for example to the south Atlantic?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I thank my noble friend. I am unable to comment in detail as to future deployments for the very same reasons that I am unable to comment in detail on the immediate deployment of HMS “Queen Elizabeth”. He identifies an important point. The south Atlantic is strategically significant and is becoming more so. That is an aspect of our global approach that we keep under constant review.

[Lord Houghton of Richmond (CB) [V]]

The Minister will be aware that the proposed deployment of HMS “Queen Elizabeth” was conceived when there were many justified concerns about the overall size of the surface fleet and its ability to meet the Royal Navy’s standing maritime tasks at home and around the world. Can she therefore confirm what risks are likely to be taken against those standing tasks to provide adequate escorts for the deployment of HMS “Queen Elizabeth” next year?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The noble and gallant Lord will be aware that, in contemplating any deployment, we make an extensive and robust assessment of risk in all respects. That is what we do at the moment and what we shall continue to do.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed. It was a rather leisurely session, which means that three Members were unable to be brought in. We now come to the second Oral Question.

Defence and Security Public Contracts (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd November 2020 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Goldie]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 7 October be approved.

Relevant document: 31st Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

My Lords, as we look towards 2021, planning for the smooth delivery of defence and security procurement beyond the transition period is absolutely essential. This instrument will ensure that defence suppliers and buyers have the legal certainty they need beyond 31 December. It is a small instrument, but a necessary one.

In the interests of accuracy, I draw attention to a minor error in the heading to Regulation 2 of the instrument, which currently reads “Pre-exit amendments of the Defence and Security Public Contracts Regulations 2011”. Regulation headings are not an operative part of the instrument and Regulation 1(2) explicitly states that Regulation 2 comes into force the day after the day on which these regulations are made. It has been confirmed by the laying offices and the legal counsel to the JCSI that the deletion of “Pre-exit” can and shall be made editorially, prior to signature. In the interests of transparency, it is appropriate to bring that to the attention of your Lordships.

Before we consider the detail of this statutory instrument—which I shall refer to as the 2020 regulations—I highlight that this is the second EU exit amendment to the Defence and Security Public Contracts Regulations 2011. The first amendment was debated in both Houses and signed by the Secretary of State for Defence last year. The 2019 regulations, as amended by the 2020 regulations, will now enter into force on implementation period completion day, which is the end of the transition period.

This instrument ensures that the procurement provisions of the withdrawal agreement and the European Economic Area European Free Trade Association separation agreement are correctly applied to the procurement of those public contracts and framework agreements which have been launched but not finalised under the Defence and Security Public Contracts Regulations before the end of the transition period.

These transitional procurements will be regulated under that version of the Defence and Security Public Contracts Regulations which meets our current European obligations. Businesses, and indeed the MoD and our much-valued security agencies, will continue to have legal certainty beyond transition period completion day. Defence and security procurements will therefore be underpinned by solid legal bedrock.

Reflecting that, Regulations 3 and 4 of the 2019 regulations will now come into effect at the end of the transition period. The 2020 regulations replace references to “exit day” in the 2019 regulations with “implementation period completion day” where necessary. The opportunity has also been taken to update certain references to financial thresholds in the 2019 regulations, which were revised during the transition period. These are small corrections, but they are necessary.

As well as amending the 2019 regulations, the new legislation updates and corrects the original 2011 regulations. Noble Lords will note that these changes are not related to EU exit. In Regulation 12, which covers technical specifications, an outdated reference to “European technical approval” is replaced with “European technical assessment”.

I reassure your Lordships that, when drafting this instrument, care has been taken to ensure that it is as consistent as possible with other government public procurement legislation. This change to Regulation 12 brings defence and security procurement legislation into alignment with the Public Contracts Regulations 2015. It is a straightforward amendment, as the system of European technical approvals is no longer in practice and has been replaced by European technical assessments. The opportunity has also been taken to update the reference to the common military list of 2018 with the common military list of 2020.

Together, the 2019 regulations and this instrument reflect the UK’s new status outside the EU. The 2019 regulations, agreed by this House over 18 months ago, restrict automatic legal access to the UK’s defence procurements to suppliers from the UK and Gibraltar only. However, the framework and principles underlying the procurement regime remain unchanged. As your Lordships are aware, this is in accordance with the powers given to amend retained EU law in the European Union (Withdrawal Act) 2018. That Act does not allow major policy changes or the introduction of new legal frameworks. Amendments to the Defence and Security Public Contracts Regulations made under the powers given by the 2018 Act are limited to dealing with the effect and consequences of EU exit.

More broadly, freedom to consider the reform of our defence and security procurement regulations is one of the consequences of our exit from the EU. So, as we look beyond the transition period, this freedom is being used positively to develop defence and security procurement regulations tailored to better meet the UK’s needs. A comprehensive review of the Defence and Security Public Contracts Regulations is under way with a view to improving the pace and agility of acquisition. This is a significant piece of work which will take some time to complete and will require the introduction of new primary and secondary legislation. In the meantime, the amendments that these regulations make will ensure that public procurement business conducted under the umbrella of the defence and security procurement legislation will continue to flow smoothly and confidently.

I look forward to contributions from your Lordships, not least that from the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, who is making his maiden speech this afternoon. I commend the 2020 regulations to the House and beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, I thank your Lordships very much indeed for their contributions, which have all been helpful and informative. I will deal with them as specifically as I can.

The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Wheatcroft and Lady Smith of Newnham, raised the issue of complexity, and why we have retained the regulations. There is no denying that they are complex but, at the same time, within industry they are understood, and to that extent they are predictable. That is why it was thought imperative that we maintain that clarity and continuity for the sake of businesses, so that they could understand the background against which they were operating and the solid basis on which they were being asked to proceed.

In common with these points was a further question: what about a more comprehensive review? As I indicated, that is in mind and under way, specifically to improve the pace and agility of acquisitions, but it is a very significant piece of work and cannot be done quickly. What matters is that it is being done; Parliament will receive further information about that in due course.

The noble Lord, Lord Thomas, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Wheatcroft and Lady Smith of Newnham, asked whether I had any idea of how many procedures had been launched but not concluded. I am afraid that I do not have a specific answer to that question. This is to some extent a changing and continuing scene but I shall make inquiries and, if I find something out, I shall certainly bring that to their attention.

The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, also raised the issue of companies having access to defence procurement in the EU after the transition period. As a matter of EU law, EU member states will no longer be legally obliged to open their defence and security procurements to UK suppliers as the appropriate directive will no longer apply. However, our UK suppliers are world class; they enjoy interest and demand for their products across the globe and offer incredible experience and expertise in defence. It may well be that EU member states will choose to give UK suppliers access to their competitions to maximise the effectiveness of their procurements, just as the UK might choose to do.

I think it was also the noble Lord, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Wheatcroft and Lady Smith of Newnham, who raised the question of state aid. I imagine that their question was predicated on whether an assessment of state aid influences a potential supplier’s bid. There is no change in the ability of contracting authorities to request that tenderers explain their price or costs where tenders appear to be abnormally low. There will, of course, no longer be an obligation to report to the European Commission where state aid is the reason that a tender was rejected.

It is a great pleasure for me to be able to extend to my noble friend Lord Lancaster a warm and personal welcome to these Benches. He raised the interesting issue of the Dunne report. He is quite right that it has been pivotal, because a stronger, more competitive and sustainable defence industry brings both better value to defence for the customer and greater economic benefit to the UK. That, of course, was recognised in the defence prosperity programme launched in Parliament in March 2019. The programme was informed by Philip Dunne’s excellent report on the subject as well as by the refresh defence industrial policy.

My noble friend also raised the interesting question of sponsored reserves; they are indeed another enabler of military capability. The assurance of contracted services, which was indeed one of their characteristics provided for under the Reserve Forces Act 1996, enables them to continue to use their skills in an operational environment to support the MoD and to deliver the service that their employers have been contracted to provide.

I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, on his thoughtful and constructive maiden speech, which had the resonance of authority from his personal experiences. I identified three principal chords in what he had to say: he seeks delivery of Brexit, he wishes the union protected, and he sees the value of upholding defence. I cannot disagree with him on any of those things. I hope that the evidence is before us that the Government are determined to deliver on all those important fronts.

The noble Lord, Lord Browne of Belmont, pointed out, I think helpfully, just how important these regulations are, because they do provide consistency and continuity. Of course, that is at the heart of why we are dealing with this business today, and it is very much in the interests of our defence industry partners that we do that.

The noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, raised the issue of our relationship with the EU. I wish to reassure her that, certainly in relation to defence, that relationship is important. We remain committed to European security, which is synonymous with United Kingdom security, and we will continue to co-operate with our friends and allies on shared threats and challenges. I reassure her that we already enjoy a strong bilateral relationship in relation to defence with a number of European countries, and that these are cordial and constructive. Of course, NATO will be at the heart of our approach to defence. The UK has consistently been and will continue to be a strong proponent of closer NATO-EU co-operation, stressing the need for coherence between the two on a range of challenges where the strengths of both organisations need to be combined.

My noble friend Lord Trenchard raised the issue in general of procurement, and specifically he mentioned the fleet solid support ships. As he will understand, I cannot comment too specifically on that process, other than to say that there was a healthy response to the market intelligence-gathering exercise. I wish to reassure him that we are clear that these ships will be made by British-led teams building on the success of Type 31, and we intend to allow international partners to work with UK firms to bid for this British-led shipbuilding project.

The noble Lord, Lord Bhatia, quite rightly raised the issue of proper tendering processes, and also being very careful to be sure of who we are doing business with. I think that would be met with an echo of agreement throughout the Chamber. Part of this process today is to ensure that there is a clarity and a robustness to the procedures, and the wider review, which I have already referred to, will have very much at heart what the United Kingdom wants to have at the forefront as the singular issues of importance when it is looking at these important procedures.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham, raised issues about equipment and her concerns about the reports from the National Audit Office and the Public Accounts Committee. I acknowledge the existing financial difficulties with the 10-year equipment plan, but I wish to point out to her that we have stayed within budget last year, as we have in the previous two, and we are striving to reduce the future gap. I think all your Lordships will understand that managing these ambitious, complex programmes is challenging, but we have already achieved £7.5 billion of equipment efficiency savings for the next 10 years, and, of course, last year we secured an extra £2.2 billion funding for defence.

The noble Lord, Lord Touhig, raised a number of issues. I think he was concerned that legislative matters in future might cause problems with our approach to these issues today. I say to him that whatever may be negotiated in the future, we always endeavour to ensure consistency and that we align legislation appropriately. He also mentioned the spending review, and I reassure him that the Ministry of Defence is in discussion with the Treasury. He rightly identified important issues, and I would agree with him about these important issues. These discussions are obviously of significance, but I cannot comment further on that just now. He also raised the issue of Covid and the effect of Covid both on the MoD and on our industrial partners. I want to reassure the noble Lord that the MoD has very robust procedures to deal with the incidence of Covid within our Armed Forces, and we also have been engaging closely with our industrial partners to ensure we are doing everything we can to support them.

I am very grateful for the contributions offered this afternoon. I hope I have answered noble Lords’ questions and clarified the implications of the amended legislation, and I trust that your Lordships will feel able to support the statutory instrument which I have already moved.

Motion agreed.

Armed Forces: Reduction

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Thursday 22nd October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Touhig]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what military (1) activities, (2) deployments, and (3) training, they plan to end following any reduction in the number of armed forces personnel.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government continually review the balance between levels of activity, including deployments and training, and Armed Forces personnel resources. It would not be appropriate, obviously, to comment on specific matters that could compromise security.

[Lord Touhig (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, following reports that the Government plan to cut the size of the Army, Tobias Ellwood, the chair of the Defence Select Committee, said that this was “sheer madness” and completely wrong. I agree. I must tell the Minister that, if the Government downgrade the Army, they downgrade the vision of global Britain and our role in the world. The Minister is highly regarded in this House. All I ask of her is that she goes back to the MoD and tells her colleagues that the British Army is overstretched now and should not be cut further.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The noble Lord raises significant issues. His question impinges on two aspects: one is the integrated review and the other is the spending review. In relation to the latter, the spending review process continues in respect of the defence budget, and the Ministry of Defence is in discussion with the Treasury on the department’s settlement. In relation to the integrated review, because of the decision to move to a one-year spending review, the Government are considering the implications for the completion of the integrated review and will provide an update to Parliament once that is decided.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, on 30 September, when launching the Integrated Operating Concept 2025, the CDS described the UK’s future campaign posture as demanding and said—I shall read this in short—that we would see

“armed forces much more in use”

and

“engaged and forward-deployed”—

with

“training and exercising being delivered as operations”—

and that it would involve supporting other countries in a pattern of possible combat operations against common threats.

Since then, as well as anonymous government briefings that a cost-cutting Army will slash its manpower by 7,000, we learn from MoD evidence to the Defence Select Committee that by 2025, the Army will not even be able to meet the demands of the 2015 Strategic Defence and Security Review, never mind the IOC. Can the Minister explain those apparent contradictions?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The noble Lord is predicating his question on speculation and hypothesis. I can respond to his question only in relation to facts as I am aware of them. The core obligation of the MoD is, of course, to protect the UK and keep our citizens safe. We shall always prioritise how we respond to the threats that the UK faces. For example, the Armed Forces continue to meet all their current commitments, keeping the country and its interests safe.

[Lord Wigley (PC) [V]]

My Lords, in the event of land occupied by the Sennybridge training centre becoming superfluous to requirements, will the Government bear in mind how the residents of 54 farms on those 30,000 acres of land were, in 1940, given just three months to quit their farms, some of which had been farmed by their families for generations, on the understanding that the land would be returned to them after the war—something that never happened? If the MoD no longer needs that land, will it please pass it back to the farming community and work with the farming unions and Powys County Council to that end?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I apologise to the noble Lord but I am inadequately briefed to respond to his question in any meaningful fashion. I shall look at Hansard, take away what he has asked and see whether I can respond to him.

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, on one hand, we have Russian aggrandisement in Ukraine and elsewhere—and, indeed, concerning developments with China in the South China Sea. On the other, we have the usage of Armed Forces personnel to fight the current Covid crisis. It seems that the Armed Forces are already pretty stretched. Therefore, looking at the facts, as my noble friend the Minister said, can I urge her to follow up on what the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, said and take back to the MoD and Cabinet that now is definitely not the time to cut further our already much-depleted Armed Forces?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I repeat what I said to the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, and assure my noble friend that we are always cognisant in the MoD of what we are there to do and what our priorities must be. We shall ensure that we have the resource to address those key priorities, which are, as I said earlier, looking after the security of the United Kingdom and protecting our citizens.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, in spite of what the noble Baroness has said, should we not be giving our allies an assurance that we will be able to fulfil existing obligations? I have in mind our leadership of the multinational battle group, which is part of NATO’s enhanced forward presence in Estonia.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

As the noble Lord is aware, the Government have committed to honour our spend commitment to NATO by spending 2% of GDP on defence. We also had a manifesto commitment to increase the defence budget by at least 0.5% above inflation every year of this Parliament. We are currently involved in the exercise to which the noble Lord referred, which is important. We are aware that the Baltic and north Arctic areas are strategically significant, and we will ensure that we have the key resources to address any emerging threats.

[Baroness Warsi (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I welcome the Government’s commitment of up to £70 million to the Afghan national defence and security forces for 2021. Can my noble friend confirm how this amount differs from that in 2020 and 2019? If she does not have the figures, will she write to me? As violence escalates and there seems to be little progress on the peace talks, and as victims of the Taliban are still not being heard in the peace and reconciliation process, can my noble friend detail plans for our long-term, ongoing commitment to Afghanistan?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I will look at the specific issue to which my noble friend referred and come back to her with a more detailed answer. On the broader front, we do retain a presence in Afghanistan and are concerned about the current situation, which we monitor on a regular basis. We shall certainly try to ensure, through our colleagues in the FCDO, that the necessary protections are in place.

[Viscount Waverley (CB) [V]]

My Lords, resource allocation also requires understanding of the role of the Armed Forces in a moderately peaceful, democratic society, and the UK’s preference for a non-interventionist approach towards foreign policy. However, should chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear capabilities, in addition to back-office activities such as cyber offence and defence, not now be bolstered and become centre-stage activities, together with mobilising the Army on Covid-related duties here and abroad, freeing up valuable resource as a result?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The noble Viscount identified two critical areas of activity. I agree with the importance that he attaches to them. As he is aware, we are positively responsive to these areas through our nuclear deterrent and our support for the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons. He will also be aware that the MoD is currently engaged in planning winter preparedness. We regularly review that, taking into account the possibility of our needing to be drawn on to meet MACA requests in respect of Covid. I reassure the noble Viscount that we are satisfied that we have the personnel and resources to respond to that.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD) [V]]

The Service Prosecuting Authority is an independent organisation which receives its funding, in the region of £5 million annually, as part of the defence budget. Will the Minister assure the House that the Service Prosecuting Authority will remain fully manned and funded, in order to preserve its essential role in the pursuit of justice in the military?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The noble Lord is correct. The Service Prosecuting Authority is essential, as part of the framework under which our Armed Forces operate. I could not envisage a situation where that would not continue to be an essential and necessary structure of our attention to law and order in respect of activity by members of the Armed Forces.

[Lord Ramsbotham (CB) [V]]

My Lords, over recent years there has been a reduction in the number of activities that keep the military in the public eye. Will the Minister please tell the House whether anything is being done to address this reduction?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The noble Lord will understand that the pandemic has inevitably imposed restrictions on what it is possible to do. That is a matter of regret, but it is a necessity and we have to accept it. Annual events, such as Armed Forces Day, for which I have recently been involved in looking at planning and detailed arrangements, are one way of bringing to public awareness the important role that our Armed Forces perform and the debt that we all owe to them for the jobs that they do.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Brougham and Vaux) (Con)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has now elapsed.

Armed Forces Personnel from Commonwealth Countries

Baroness Goldie Excerpts

Tuesday 20th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Touhig]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans, if any, they have to help armed forces personnel from Commonwealth countries to settle in the United Kingdom.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government highly value the service of all members of the Armed Forces, including Commonwealth nationals and Gurkhas from Nepal. We recognise that settlement fees place a financial burden on service personnel and their families wishing to settle in the UK after service. We are working with the Home Office to consider how we can offer greater flexibility for these individuals and their families in future.

[Lord Touhig (Lab) [V]]

The Royal British Legion says the Government should stop charging fees to Commonwealth veterans who want to remain in the country they have served. The Veterans Minister, Johnny Mercer, said the Government should pay the fees, while Cabinet Minister Michael Gove said that the current government policy was “ridiculous” and those who paid should get a refund. He told Royal Navy sailors:

“You’ve convinced Johnny and you’ve certainly convinced me that we need to change.”


If these key Ministers are on side, what is the hold-up?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The noble Lord will recognise that the issue is complex. I can reassure him that discussions have been ongoing and that my right honourable friend the Defence Secretary and Johnny Mercer, the Minister for Defence People and Veterans, have discussed the issue with the Home Secretary and the Minister for Future Borders and Immigration to consider how we can offer greater flexibility for these individuals and their families in future.

[Baroness Warsi (Con)]

My Lords, my question follows on from the supplementary question. Would my noble friend agree that every poppy counts because every veteran counts, including those recruited from the Commonwealth? Will the Government use this year’s Remembrance Day as a moment to endorse and accept the campaign, which has just been referred to, to ensure that Commonwealth veterans are adequately advised about their right to remain in the UK post-service and do not face crippling visa fees?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for bringing the House’s attention to Remembrance Day, which is taking place in an unusual set of circumstances, but in no way does that diminish the significance of who we remember and why we remember them. In relation to her latter point about the campaign, the people affected within the Armed Forces are principally our Commonwealth veterans and our Gurkha veterans, and that is why there is currently an ongoing investigation into how we might better support them. I can reassure my noble friend that extensive help and support is already given to anyone joining the Armed Forces who may wish to consider their future at the time of discharge, and that includes information about what is involved in resettling or applying for naturalisation.

[Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB) [V]]

My Lords, Sikhs contributed out of all proportion to the Commonwealth war effort, with some families settling with family in Afghanistan following the partition of Punjab. Sadly, the Sikh community there has been literally decimated for standing up for the liberal values of gender equality and freedom of belief. Would the Minister agree that we should support the handful of families of Commonwealth service veterans desperately seeking to leave that country?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I join the noble Lord in paying tribute to the contribution from the Sikh community within the Armed Forces. They have been an inspiration, and our debt to them is immense. As for the particular circumstances confronting Sikh personnel within Afghanistan, the noble Lord will be aware that the UK Government maintain a presence in Afghanistan. Principally, our support there is provided to those who were former Afghan interpreters, but he makes an important point.

[Lord Judd (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that all the messages of good will and good intent are wearing a little thin? The fact is that, at the moment, those who want to remain must still pay £10,000 or more for a visa. Furthermore, there have been some pretty disturbing cases of, for example, a veteran being asked to pay a £50,000 bill to the health service for the removal of a brain tumour. These people served our country; we need to act fast and convincingly to demonstrate that that will never be forgotten.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

Let me reassure the noble Lord that the contribution made by service personnel from the Commonwealth and from Nepal is certainly never forgotten or overlooked. As I said earlier to the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, the issue is technically complex. I cannot comment on the specific case that the noble Lord mentions of Mr Ratucaucau. That is a sad and unfortunate case, but it is currently the subject of legal proceedings and it would be inappropriate for me to comment further. However, I reassure the noble Lord that it is recognised that there is an issue, the department is cognisant of that and the matter is being actively investigated.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD) [V]]

My Lords, the Minister has used the word “flexibility”, but that almost implies that visa fees could be paid on the never-never. Does she not agree that the best form of flexibility, and that the best way to support the Commonwealth veterans who wish to remain here, is to waive the visa fees entirely?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I was not aware that I had used the word “flexibility”, but I defer to the noble Baroness. What I did indicate was that there is a range of measures available at the time of recruitment to inform and educate those who seek a career in the Armed Forces as to what lies ahead if they then wish to be discharged and to reside in this country. As I have indicated, it is recognised that there are sensitivities and the department is actively investigating the position.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, but this is a monumental muddle that is causing great distress. Why does the Minister, who is well respected in the House for her diplomatic skills, not just say to the House that after Question Time she will go back to the Ministry of Defence, contact the other departments involved and get this resolved as quickly as possible?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his kind remarks—he perhaps attributes to me greater powers than I actually possess. He is right to emphasise the significance of the issue, and I reassure him that I do not have to reiterate that to the department. There is active work under way, and I hope that something positive will emerge from that.

[Viscount Trenchard (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend not agree that, as an interim measure, Commonwealth service personnel should be granted exemption from visa fees and immigration controls for a grace period of, perhaps, two years after leaving the service, so that they may seek employment, claim benefits and register with a GP?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My noble friend makes an interesting suggestion, and the department is certainly receptive to all views. I am sure that is a view that the department will look at with interest.

[Lord Loomba (CB) [V]]

My Lords, Armed Forces personnel from many Commonwealth countries have supported our country over many, many years, including in the First and Second World Wars. Their bravery and commitment are to be applauded. Can the Minister tell us how they are supported once they leave the military with things such as NHS facilities? Are they expected to pay for this service upon leaving? If so, should we be looking at whether this is just and fair?

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

The MoD, the Home Office and the Government in general provide financial advice to veterans who are facing financial difficulty. Following discharge, Veterans UK’s Veterans Welfare Service and Defence Transition Services provide support to Commonwealth and Gurkha veterans, as they do to any other veteran.

[Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD)]

My Lords, this “lefty lawyer”—which I regard as an accolade rather than an insult—cannot understand why, if these men put themselves at risk in being willing to fight on behalf of our country, we should not remove every obstacle in their way, including this quite extraordinary charge that they are liable to pay. If the problem is in the Home Office, perhaps we should be doing something about reforming the Home Office.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I do not for one moment doubt the noble Lord’s sincerity, although he will be aware that the policy obtained during the time of the coalition Government, of which his party was part. It is complex, and I am not diminishing that. We are talking not just of Commonwealth citizens, which I think is the focus of the Royal British Legion campaign; we are also talking about the Gurkhas. We are very conscious of the immense contribution that they all make, and we are actively investigating whether there is anything that we can do to support them better.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed. We now come to the second Oral Question.