Housing Benefit

(Limited Text - Ministerial Extracts only)

Tuesday 9th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Alexander]

I will give way in a moment or two. Next, it is stated that in the past five years housing benefit has risen by £5 billion and it has been suggested that the cuts are necessary to stop a soaring housing benefit bill. Housing benefit did rise by about 21% during the recession—that is undisputed—but that was driven by a case load that increased by 18%, including a 26% increase in respect of those of working age; it was not driven by a few rents.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would like to explain how the figures show that the real-terms increase over the past five years was 50%, not 18%. That was fuelled hugely by the Labour Government’s reform to local housing allowance. The figures show that today’s rates of LHA are 10% higher than those that they inherited, and that is due to their change. Perhaps he would like to explain that.

[Mr Alexander]

I am happy to come on to deal with exactly those points, which echo some that we have heard.

[Mr Alexander]

I shall seek to let the hon. Gentleman in as soon as I can. Housing benefit bills—

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Explain it.

[Mr Alexander]

I am just about to explain it, if the right hon. Gentleman would just exercise a little patience. If he had done his homework, he would know that his Department’s own statistics show that since 2000 more than half the increase in the housing benefit bill—54%—did not come from the few high claims. It came from poorer private tenants—those in low-paid work, and disabled or elderly people—claiming housing benefit. More than half the increase is coming from more people claiming, not from significantly increased rents. What Ministers seem to fail to understand is the number of households on local housing allowance who are in work. Over the past two years, there have been 250,000 new cases in work claiming LHA. During the recession, as wages and the hours that people were able to work fell, people turned to housing benefit and to LHA to stop themselves being made homeless. In recent years, during the recession, housing benefit has been vital in keeping people in their homes.

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[Mr Alexander]

I have great respect for the hon. Gentleman, but there is a difference between having a duty to act—and we support the case for reform in housing benefit—[Hon. Members: “Ah!”] I know that that might be an uncomfortable truth for those on the Government Benches, but there is a difference between a duty to act and acting in such a precipitate and reckless fashion that it ultimately ends up costing the taxpayer more. I think the hon. Gentleman is just old enough to recollect that under the Conservatives in the ’80s and ’90s the impact of higher homelessness was a greater cost to the taxpayer; it did not lower bills for the taxpayer.

The core of the Government’s policy is their belief that by cutting or capping housing benefit—this has been the substance of a couple of interventions—they will reduce the level of rents in the private sector and thus reduce the deficit. In seeking to find a rationale for the scale and speed of the cuts, the Government seem to be getting themselves in some difficulty. The Daily Telegraph today sets out that LHA rents are rising faster than non-LHA rents in the private sector. The Government’s regulations require that the LHA rates are set at the median of the private rental sector rent, excluding those let to housing benefit claimants, so rent officers collect data on non-housing benefit rents in each broad rental area market and use that data to set the local housing allowance.

In passing, incidentally, if the Secretary of State is so concerned about rent levels in the private sector, will he explain why he decided to scrap our proposals for a national register of landlords or indeed for the regulation of letting and management agents, designed to give more protection to tenants? The sound of silence is deafening. Why did he bin the recommendations of the Rugg review?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Bureaucratic nonsense.

[Mr Alexander]

I do not think that protecting tenants from bad landlords is bureaucratic nonsense. If the Secretary of State did more than visit Easterhouse, he might share that point of view.

Not only does the Government’s core belief that rents will fall risk failing to reflect how LHA works, at a much deeper level it risks ignoring what is happening in the housing market at the moment. Rents in the sector will probably rise, according to the National Landlords Association, which has published results of a poll showing that 50% of landlords would not reduce their rents at all and that nine out of 10 would not rent to housing benefit recipients—[Interruption.] From a sedentary position, the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Thornbury and Yate (Steve Webb), says, “They would say that, wouldn’t they?” Would that be the claim that he would make against Shelter, the indisputably well-recognised housing charity? “Yes,” I hear from Conservative Back-Benchers. Well, their interventions are perhaps more telling than they realise.

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[Mr Alexander]

I can understand the embarrassment of those on the Government Front Bench, but whether it is the Deputy Prime Minister attacking the Institute for Fiscal Studies or the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions attacking the Archbishop of Canterbury, they diminish the case that they are trying to make.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I would like an answer from the right hon. Gentleman now. He was asked an interesting question. Does he agree with Opposition Members, such as the hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Mr McCann), who think that our measures will socially cleanse London? Will he please answer that question?

[Mr Alexander]

I have a clear view that if these proposals pass unamended, London will look very different in the years ahead. [Interruption.] I noted that the Secretary of State did not dispute the fact that he had attacked the Archbishop of Canterbury. Perhaps he will choose to do that next time.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

rose—

[Mr Alexander]

I am happy to give way.

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[Mr Duncan Smith]

I just want a straight answer. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree with his right hon. and hon. Friends, including the hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow, who for the past two weeks have said that what we are doing will remove every social tenant from London and socially cleanse it? Is that correct?

[Mr Alexander]

I have said that I think London will look very different in the years ahead if the Government’s proposals are passed. We can have a contest across the Floor of the House in which I ask the right hon. Gentleman how he feels about Boris, and he can ask me how I feel about some Labour Back Benchers. I know it is uncomfortable for the Secretary of State, but this is a debate about the Government’s policies, not about my words.

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[Mr Alexander]

I am going to make a little more progress.

There is a substantive question, and that is: on what evidential basis do the Government assert that rents will fall? In the debate involving the Bishop of Leicester last week in the other place, the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, Baroness Hanham, in response to being challenged directly on the evidence that the Government could adduce for a fall in rents as a result of the changes, said that it was a “suggestion”.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Steve Webb)]

I think that the shadow Secretary of State is a measured and reasonable man who will not want to be hysterical but will want to look at the facts. Since November 2008 private rents have fallen by 5% and local housing allowance rents have risen by 3%. LHA is pushing rents up. Does he accept that?

[Mr Alexander]

I have already covered the point that LHA is calculated in relation to rent in the private rented sector. The Minister generously characterises me as a reasonable fellow, but the fact is that this is the second time in as many days that a coalition Minister has accused the Government’s critics of being hysterical. I think that it was the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government who yesterday told London councils, when perfectly reasonable questions were being asked, to “grow up”. I hope that when the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions speaks in this debate we will have a more measured and reasonable account of why the policies have been decided on and of whether the Government are willing to reflect on the points being raised, and in turn change their mind.

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[Mr Douglas Alexander]

I shall resist the temptation of suggesting that the one person who should be dispatched from Sheffield is the Deputy Prime Minister. I acknowledge the fact that in communities such as Sheffield, and in cities across the whole of Britain, there is deep anxiety and concern about the impact of these changes. That is why the Local Government Group agreed that the move to the 30th percentile is

“ likely to increase homelessness costs,”

since it will diminish

“the willingness of private rented sector landlords to let to housing benefit customers. This will have hugely variable and disproportionate effects on different parts of the country.”

The Government’s impact assessment of the 30th percentile change goes into great detail to demonstrate that at least 30% of the market is available in every area. However, is it not the case that the inevitable consequence of the LHA cap and the CPI cap is that, over time, the proportion of the available market will shrink below 30%?

Finally, let me come to one measure that has absolutely nothing to do with welfare reform and everything to do with a welfare cut. The Government propose that someone who is doing everything that we would ask of a person on benefits—applying for jobs, going to interviews, and even getting on the Secretary of State’s famous bus from Merthyr Tydfil—will still lose 10% of their housing benefit if they cannot find a job within a year.

Let me unpick the statistics in two communities. Wolverhampton has six claimants for every job. If they were to be sanctioned tomorrow on housing benefit, 1,116 families would lose 10% of their benefit. To take Norfolk, a very different community from Wolverhampton, the figures say that there are 5,000 jobs, mainly casual, and 15,600 claimants—and that under these rules, 1,254 families would be sanctioned tomorrow. How can such an approach be fair when there are five claimants chasing every vacancy in the British labour market?

On Sunday, the Secretary of State’s colleague, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, stated:

“Sanctions in the welfare system only apply when people don’t take advantage of the help and support that is on offer.”

Such a statement is irreconcilable with the policy that the Treasury has now imposed on the Department for Work and Pensions. I have to say to the Secretary of State, for whom I feel great respect, that he is losing even old and dear friends as he tries to defend the measures that he has signed his Department up to. Indeed, when Bob Holman, the man who brought the right hon. Gentleman to Easterhouse in 2002, was asked why the Secretary of State had changed track, he said:

“It is hard to say. I think he has come very much under the influence of George Osborne, who is very much more aggressive, who is much more anti-working class and I think that Iain probably is looking at it—if I am to get my big reform through, the universal credit system, I’ve got to go along some way with the attitude of Osborne.”

Indeed, how does the right hon. Gentleman want the unemployed to answer the question originally asked by Norman Tebbit? The truth is that homes are cheaper where there are fewer jobs. Should the jobless from Middlesbrough move to London where there may be jobs but fewer homes, or should the homeless from London move to Middlesbrough where there are homes but fewer jobs? I hope that the Secretary of State will take the opportunity to answer that question in the course of his remarks.

The right hon. Gentleman once styled himself as “the quiet man”. I simply cannot believe why, given all the work he has done over recent years, he stayed silent in his conversations with the Chancellor when the latter told him that this was a progressive move to help people into work. It is the very opposite of a progressive move. The party that once said that unemployment was a price worth paying now wants to fine the unemployed if they cannot find a job. We were guaranteeing work for the long-term unemployed, but the Conservative party seems to be threatening them with homelessness.

[Steve Webb]

My eyes may deceive me, but I sense that the shadow Secretary of State is on the final page of his speech. He must have dropped a very long section in which he was to set out Labour’s alternative. Perhaps he will do that now.

[Mr Alexander]

It might help the hon. Gentleman if he recognised that as he has chosen to align himself with the Conservative party in government, it is now his responsibility to answer the questions. I know that, as a former professor of social policy at the university of Bath, he is a man of great erudition and deep thinking. May I commend to him the speech I made on Friday in which I went through each of the measures and set out our thinking, as I have done on a range of them today?

We disagree fundamentally about the balance between the cuts that have to be borne by the poor and the vulnerable relative to the contribution that should be made by the banks. So we disagree about the deficit. We also disagree with measures such as the 10% cut in housing benefit relative to jobseeker’s allowance—[Interruption.] What do we support? In the March Budget we made it clear that we wanted to take the top rental—forgive me, Mr Speaker. I should not get into a debate with someone who is sitting down. I shall address you, Mr Speaker. We have made it clear that we could support a phased approach to caps, and that we want to look into regional caps. We have made it clear that we are willing to consider the proposal—once we receive an impact assessment—on the deductions available for non-dependent individuals living in households that receive housing benefit. We have also made it clear that we regard the 10% cut in housing benefit for those who have been unemployed for a year as completely unacceptable—and in his previous persona, I fear, the Minister would have found them unacceptable as well.

I need to draw my remarks to a conclusion, as was kindly anticipated by the Minister. Let us be honest: this package of rushed, ill-considered and potentially devastating cuts has raised concerns beyond the debates in this Chamber in communities across the country. In the 1980s, the previous Conservative Government showed that higher homelessness, like longer dole queues, ends up costing the taxpayer more, not less. These ill-thought-through proposals have already led a number of MPs of conscience and concern, on both sides of the House, to register their disquiet. I do not claim a monopoly of concern about the proposals for any one party. Perhaps that is why the Government have run scared of putting an amendment to the House today endorsing explicitly each of the present proposals on housing benefit that they continue to advocate. Fortunately, however, there is still time for the Government to think again about these proposals. I urge Members on both sides of the House to take the opportunity this evening to reflect on these changes, and I commend the motion to the House.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

I rise to oppose for a number of reasons the motion moved by the Opposition. I will deal with it quickly, and then move on to the rest of the rationale behind the speech by the right hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South (Mr Alexander).

In the past two weeks—particularly, in the past two or three days—the right hon. Gentleman has started trying to reset the tone in the motion. None the less, the facts are exaggerated. For example, there is the ridiculous fact that we might have to spend an additional £120 million to provide temporary accommodation. That is ludicrous. There is no policy in this motion at all. Despite the major deficit that we have inherited, and despite the fact that housing benefit is running out of control, he did not say a thing about what he is planning to do. Opposition comes with responsibilities, and one of them is to have some policies before criticising, but the Labour party has none.

The right hon. Gentleman is basically a reasonable man, and I look forward to dealing with him—[Interruption.] That is very kind. Thank you. So we are all reasonable across the Dispatch Box. But what is not reasonable is what has gone on over the past two weeks. I am pleased that in the past few days he has suddenly entered the fray, because he was suspiciously silent when a lot of his colleagues were running up and down the place trying to frighten the public about the changes. In many senses that was quite disreputable. Two weeks ago, the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant)—the right hon. Gentleman’s hon. Friend—accused us of deliberately trying to “socially cleanse” London, and that is in Hansard. Furthermore, in the other place, one of the right hon. Gentleman’s great friends, Baroness Hollis, talked of

“Weeping children, desperate mothers, defeated fathers …carnage”.—[Official Report, House of Lords, 4 November 2010; Vol. 721, c. 1743.]

This has gone too far. I should also say that, encouraged by a nod and a wink from his Front-Bench colleagues, one of their great supporters in one of the national papers—a columnist—talked about our “final solution” for the poor. What they have actually managed to do—

[Mr Lammy]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I will give way in a minute, but not right now, because I want the Opposition to chew on this for a little. The way in which they have behaved over the past two weeks has been atrocious and outrageous. They knowingly used terminology used to describe events such as the holocaust, making shrill allegations of bitter intent that they knew would frighten rather than inform. I say “rather than inform”, because until Saturday, when the right hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South gave his interview to The Guardian, the Opposition’s manic rabble-rousing had failed to tell the public a rather interesting point: that had Labour Members been re-elected, they knew that they would have had to take strong measures. I will read a few quotations that should explain to his Back-Bench colleagues just exactly what Labour was planning to do.

The first quotation that I want to give them is from somebody whom I hope they will identify: their right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition. He said:

“Housing Benefit will be reformed to ensure that we do not subsidise people to live in the private sector on rents that other ordinary working families could not afford.”

In the run-up to the election, the then Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling), said that Labour’s LHA—he was describing his own party’s reform—had discouraged employment and was unfair. He made it clear that the policy was set for a major change and that Labour was to blame.

[Mr Lammy]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Before I do, I want to finish this one off. My predecessor, the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), went even further before the previous election, hinting strongly at a much bigger change. She said that

“it isn’t fair for the taxpayer to fund a very small minority of people to live in expensive houses which hardworking families could never afford.”

I wonder who was in power for those 10 years, but none the less. While acknowledging that Labour’s flagship LHA reform was in an expensive mess, she went on:

“We will publish further plans…to make the system fairer, and to make sure housing benefit encourages people into jobs.”

Of course, as with everything else that Labour Front Benchers did before the last election, they cynically refused explicitly to tell their own Back Benchers or the public—the electorate—what they were actually planning. So now we learn that, according to the hon. Member for Rhondda, all those Back Benchers apparently stood on a secret manifesto to socially cleanse London. Knowing the hon. Gentleman as I do, I am sure that had Labour Members been in government and raised such matters, he would have been the first to jump to their defence, like he always was. The answer to that is: shame on them for scaring all those people in London.

[Mr Douglas Alexander]

Let me invite the right hon. Gentleman to get off his high horse for a moment. He seems to be claiming that there is a conspiracy on the part of the Labour Front-Bench team against the Labour Back Benchers not to tell them what was in the manifesto on which they were elected. If he has established that there is a consistent approach between me and my predecessors in my current role, would he like to share with the House his thinking about the comments that were offered by the Conservative Mayor of London about the proposals, Boris Johnson?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I agree with Boris Johnson. What he said is that there will be no “Kosovo-style cleansing” of London. Quite right. He was responding to the scare stories and the scaremongering of all those on the Opposition Benches, because that is exactly the phraseology that they were using.

[Emily Thornberry]

Will the right hon. Gentleman help us now? Which Front Bencher has been scaring my constituents by saying that the policy will be worse than the highland clearances? Which shameful Front Bencher has been telling the press that?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I think that that is the case on the Opposition side. The reality is that they have been scaring the public, and they know it. I detect just a little dog whistle blowing from those on the Labour Benches, freezing and frightening everybody out there in the socially rented sector.

[Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)]

rose—

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I want to deal with some of the allegations. Opposition Members made the allegations, so let us get the record straight. The first was that London will somehow end up like Paris—socially cleansed so that people live only on the outer circle.

[Mr Lammy]

It is true.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Oh, it is true? Okay. Let me remind the House about one simple point. The proposed changes to the local housing allowance concern the private rented sector. London has nearly 800,000 social homes—by the way, the Labour Government built far too few in their time—and the changes do not affect them. London has social housing embedded in its heart, and that will not change. So Labour Members must have known that they were scaring people with a complete pack of lies and nonsense. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I apologise to the Secretary of State. I accept that there are strong views on this matter, and that the atmosphere is highly charged, but there are many subscribers to this debate, and for the benefit of Back-Bench Members, the Chair would like to accommodate as many as possible. The more noise there is, the greater the delay, and the more difficult it will be to accommodate them. Perhaps we can calm down a little.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I am grateful to you, Mr Speaker. In the calmer mood, I will give way to the hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Glenda Jackson).

[Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab)]

Is it not also part of the right hon. Gentleman’s housing policy to ensure that rents in the social housing sector will rise to 90% of the median, and that the Government are considering abolishing secure tenancies?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The answer is no for existing tenants. Our policy will apply to new tenants and new build, so the hon. Lady should check her facts.

Let us not forget that the private rental market is dynamic. That is the point that the Opposition fail to mention.

[Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

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[Mr Duncan Smith]

I will give way in a moment.

Around 40% of private rental tenancies are less than a year old, and 70% are less than three years old. What effectively happens in the marketplace is that there is a huge amount of movement. Another nonsense that Opposition Members have peddled over the past two weeks is that the sector is made up of a static group of people who have mostly lived in the same place all their lives and that we are about to uproot people who have a reasonable and rational reason to live where they are. In the past year, more than 100,000 people in the sector moved naturally. The idea that we will go in and raid all those homes is utter nonsense and scaremongering.

[Mr Slaughter]

The report referred to earlier says that independent research shows that 134,000 households will be evicted or forced to move when the cuts come in next year, and those are just the first set of cuts. It is the Government’s policy to get rid of new social tenancies and to raise rents for new tenants to 80%. Over a period, the exact effect of that combination of measures will mean that no one on a low income can live in the inner city. Will the right hon. Gentleman have the courage to admit that that is his Government’s policy?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The impact assessment does not say that, and it is typical of the Opposition to take a figure for those who will be affected and assume automatically that they will be driven out of their homes. That is shameful.

[Angie Bray]

The scaremongering is a disgrace, and I am sure that many of us have had scared constituents coming to us having been worried unnecessarily by stories that they have heard from Labour Members. I have been looking online at some of the properties on offer in the private rented sector in Ealing and Central Acton. There are some remarkably good offers around that are well within the proposed caps—for example, a four-bedroom house with a garden at under £400 a week, and a flat for about £250 a week with access to a swimming pool. The situation is really not as dire as the Opposition are suggesting.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend is right. We believe, and our calculations show that one third of all properties are available and will be ready for those who have to move. I say “have to move” because that assumes a static marketplace, and this marketplace is not static. I will return to that point in a second.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I will give way in a moment.

I want to deal with another point that is being trumpeted by Labour Members, and some others who have risen to the worst extent of some of the figures. Families with children over 10 who must share a bedroom are classed as homeless and that led to the strange suggestion during an exchange in the Select Committee that tens of thousands of people will be homeless. That definition of homelessness is not one that I recognise. In fact, I looked at the report of that Select Committee and I note that my hon. Friend the Member for Bromsgrove (Sajid Javid) asked Roger Harding of Shelter whether he, my hon. Friend, having shared a bedroom as a child, had been homeless according to Shelter’s definition. Shelter’s response was yes, he had been. We are none of us served by this kind of nonsense. By all means let us have a rational debate about the reality of what we are trying to do.

[Mr Douglas Alexander]

rose—

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I will give way to the right hon. Gentleman in a moment. I am quite happy to engage with him on this point, but, in answer to my original question, will he now disown all those who have been running around the houses telling everybody that there will be social cleansing and that all these people will be made homeless? Will he now say that that is not true, and will he apologise for what they were doing?

[Mr Alexander]

I do not think that the best interests of the country are served by the kind of exchange that the right hon. Gentleman is engaging in. I accept his offer of a rational conversation, however, and he has just raised the issue of the definition of homelessness. Only last week, his fellow Minister Lord Freud said that it was desirable that the legislation be changed in relation to the category of homelessness. Will the Secretary of State please clarify the Government’s position on this? Is he supportive of changing homelessness legislation, or is he now going to cut his own Minister adrift?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

We have absolutely no plans to do that. Furthermore, if the right hon. Gentleman wants to engage in a sensible, constructive discussion on how we define homelessness, I am happy to do that. The point I am making about what has been going on is that Opposition Members should know better—he has an ex-housing Minister sitting next to him—and that they know full well that those definitions of “homeless” are simply not true. He should have disowned them early on, before we started this debate.

[Simon Hughes]

The Secretary of State is rightly trying to lower the temperature and to ensure that we deal in facts and not in hyperbole. Will he take this opportunity to deal with one other myth that has become common? Will he confirm that, if anyone in the private rented sector has to move because their property has become too expensive, it is not the Government’s policy that they should move to a far-off community with which they have no links, and that the intention will always be that they should ideally stay in the community or council area where they come from and where they have lived?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

That is exactly what we want and what we intend. That is what we believe, for the most part, will actually happen—and in smaller numbers than people think. In some cases, there will be short moves even within boroughs.

I was asked about impact assessments, and we are going to publish them. We are bound to do so by the legislation. I am not trying to hide from that. We published an impact assessment after the Budget, and we are going to publish them when the legislation is due. I have already said that we will do that.

[Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend was right to point out that I was shocked to learn in the Select Committee that I had been homeless as a child. I believe, however, that the question is not so much one of the definition of homelessness as one of whether people living on housing benefit should be forced to make the same choices that other low-income working families are forced to make. Those low-income working families typically pay rent to the 30th percentile and their children are forced to share bedrooms, as they would be in any ordinary family. It should be no different for anyone on housing benefit.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend’s exchange was the most interesting one to come out of that Committee sitting, and he is right about this. I do not think that the previous Government intended these consequences; they simply failed to recognise that their change was going to fuel this growth. If they are honest with themselves, they would say that they know that. The ex-Chancellor actually said that he thought that this was out of control. These are the sort of choices that ordinary people have to make when they cut their budgets in accordance with what housing they can afford, and that is what we are trying to do here. It is not about punishing people; it is about trying to get the rents in the social area of private renting back into line with what people are paying who are working and earning marginal incomes and are therefore unable to make ends meet.

[Mr Douglas Alexander]

The right hon. Gentleman has just made a statement saying that this is not about punishing people. Can he reconcile that statement with his policy of cutting 10% of somebody’s housing benefit, when that person has done everything right, turned up for interviews, filled in applications and sought to secure jobs but alas, in a job market where five claimants chase every vacancy, has been unable to secure a job after 12 months?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The realities of what we are bringing in around that will make the change happen. [Hon. Members: “What?”] Wait a minute—here is the real point. About 90% of all those who are unemployed are back into work within the year. That leaves us with a target of 10%. Remember that we are now bringing in the Work programme, which will work extensively with all the people in that category and return them to work. As I said to the right hon. Gentleman earlier, the changes we are making to the benefit system will make it much easier for those people to go back to work. My point is simply this: they will be achievable; they get rid of a disincentive to go to work, and we believe that they will actually work.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I give way to the hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell).

[Bob Russell]

Will my right hon. Friend clarify a point? Is he saying that rents are too high in the private sector? If that is the case—I am sure that is what he said—should there not be, in the interests of fairness, other measures to deal with landlords whose rents are too high?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Let me deal with that question. My Department pays for 40% of all rental housing in Britain—we pay 40% of the total bills—and is the biggest purchaser. What we do therefore has a massive effect on the marketplace. This is the point that Labour Members missed out on when they were in government. Any change they made had a direct effect on the marketplace. My simple point to the right hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South is that the change in local housing allowance, as we can see from the graphs, fuelled an immediate increase—it was not just down to the recession, but down to two particular factors. In getting the calculations wrong about the median line and the capping, they ended up allowing LHA to rocket to provide landlords with excess amounts of money for providing housing that would have cost less. How do we know that? [Interruption.] I am going to answer this really important question.

We know that for two good reasons. First, if we compare those who remained on what was there before—it did not change for them because it was new people who came on to LHA—we find that the differential between where they are now and where the LHA rate is amounts to 10%. LHA growth is thus 10% above where we might have been had the change not been made. That is the first thing. [Interruption.] Hold on a second. That was one factor that fuelled the problem because it allowed landlords to push up to the 50% point, which is exactly what they did.

The second point is that there are many things we can do. We now know that, according to the Office for National Statistics, the private marketplace in housing—Labour Members are completely wrong about this—fell by around 5% last year. At the same time, LHA rates, which the previous Government had set and left to us, had risen by 3%. There is thus a 7% gap with what is going on in the marketplace. What we want to do, by working with councils, is to drive those rents back down. The purpose of these changes is to give a real impetus to getting the rents down to make affordable housing more available in some areas.

[Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)]

I have an excellent researcher who earns £22,000 a year. Just before I came to attend this debate, he pointed out that he has to commute into London because he cannot afford a room in central London. He remarked that his best chance of getting a flat in central London was to resign from his job and make himself homeless.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Duncan Smith]

May I answer my hon. Friend’s point first before I give way? My hon. Friend’s real point is that there is no fairness in this particular system when people who have to make decisions about their housing have to commute distances to get to work. That is the reality for them. The idea that people can live exactly where there is work is simply not the case. That is the choice that people have to make.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Many of the colleagues of the right hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South want me to give way to them. Does he really want to take their place? Okay—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Alexander]

I would not wish the Secretary of State, however inadvertently, to leave the House with a misapprehension in relation to the impact of the 10% cut in housing benefit on those receiving jobseeker’s allowance who find themselves unemployed after a year. If I heard him correctly, he came close to saying that people would not lose out because of other changes to the benefits system, such as the introduction of the Work programme. Will he therefore explain why, in the Red Book, it is scored as a saving of £110 million? Either people will lose money and be punished because they find themselves unemployed after 12 months, or they will be better off, in which case there should not be that saving score in the Red Book.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

We do not believe that they will reach that point. If the right hon. Gentleman looks at the figures—

[Mr Alexander]

rose—

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I will come back to the right hon. Gentleman in a second. In the current static state, we will save money through the reforms that we have made.

[Mr Marsden]

The right hon. Gentleman is setting the cap and justifying the 10% cut for the long-term unemployed on the basis that people will be moved from welfare into work. Does he not realise that part of that process involves retraining and reskilling? If he does realise that, why has there been so little discussion between him and Ministers from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I do not quite understand why the hon. Gentleman asks that question. I have been talking about the issue endlessly to Ministers from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman can take my word for it that I have spent a great deal of time talking to them, but if he would like to attend the next meeting, I should be more than happy to invite him.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I will give way, but I want to make some progress first.

The fact is that we have heard a lot of this nonsense. We have put aside a large amount of money—some £140 million, and we have been keeping the position under review—so that we can deal with the hardest cases when we believe that it is necessary for anyone to be affected or moved. The Department for Communities and Local Government is assisting us with that.

Among the Opposition’s other charges was the charge that our changes were somehow not fair. The maximum rent following a cap—and the Opposition still have not said whether they agree with it—is £400, the weekly equivalent of more than £20,000 a year. Let me remind the House what someone who was out there earning would have to earn to pay that £20,000. That person would have to earn £80,000. The Government left us an LHA rate of £104,000 a year. Someone would have to earn £250,000 a year to pay that in rent. [Interruption.] I fully accept that we are dealing with the top end of the cases, who constitute by no means the largest number. The point is, however, that the previous Government were so slack with the system that they allowed abuses and excesses. Before the last election, even people on their own side were saying that they would have to change it. That is the reality.

[Toby Perkins]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I will, but then I must make some more progress.

[Toby Perkins]

I think that the Secretary of State is focusing excessively on the cap. My right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South (Mr Alexander) has already made it clear that that is not the main focus of our objections to the Government’s proposals. The Secretary of State dealt with myths earlier. Will he now deal with the myth that housing benefit recipients are out of work? Many of them are working, but they are low-paid. More than 350 of them in Chesterfield will be badly affected, when they are trying to work their way towards a better life. Why are they the people whom the Secretary of State is attacking with his policy?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

There are people in work who receive housing benefit, but the worst aspect of the changes with which the previous Government left us is that many of them are now trapped in short working hours. They dare not work for more hours, because they would lose too much of their housing benefit and would lose their homes as a consequence. Setting housing benefit at the levels at which the previous Government set it was no kindness to people who really do want to get on and work longer hours, because they are faced with the invidious choice of whether to move. That is one of the reasons more than 100,000 people moved in the rental market last year. Many people have to move to find a house that is suitable so that they can go and find better work. That is the reality. The hon. Gentleman’s party left us with that situation, and it is his party that he should now blame for the mess and chaos.

[Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I must make a bit of progress. I will give way in a second.

Although that was not the largest number, the fact is that the top 5,000 of those cases of housing benefit cost the Exchequer £100 million a year. Unless Labour Members think that £100 million a year is not a lot of money, I should like to know why the shadow Secretary of State does not say that he agrees with the capping system that we want to introduce. Will he perhaps tell me whether he agrees with the capping system? No, he will not. Yet again we have heard no policy from the Opposition, but the fact is that we inherited a chaotic housing system.

[Mr Alexander]

I repeat what I said earlier: we want to avoid the arbitrary imposition of an immediate cap resulting in higher costs, not lower costs, for the taxpayer. We are prepared to look at a phased approach, but we also think that a regional cap should be considered. Is that clear enough for the right hon. Gentleman?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The right hon. Gentleman knows that the vast majority of that £100 million comes from London. So what is he saying? Is he going to impose a cap on London?

[Mr Alexander]

Even the right hon. Gentleman and I would agree that London is contained within one of the regions of the United Kingdom.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

At last, we have an admission from the shadow Secretary of State that Labour is going to cap this. Now we only have to deal with the levels. It is unbelievable. If he wants to say that he is going to cap it, why was that not in the motion? There is not a word. Labour Members have spent the last two weeks scaring everybody out there and then not daring to tell people that they themselves want to cap. What a ridiculous lot of nonsense. The reality is that we inherited the mess that their Government left behind.

[Ms Buck]

On that point, will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the Mayor of London’s housing adviser has stated that, in London alone, the cost of temporary accommodation for homeless households, arising from the impact of the caps, could exceed the total savings by £13 million in one region alone? Will he also confirm that the figure for working households on local housing allowance is almost half the total case load, including those on JSA with the 90% annual turnover that he has just confirmed?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The reality is that the adviser said that before he even knew how much we were using for the discretionary allowance. [Interruption.] Hold on a second. He said “could”. The reality is that this is not going to happen. There should be no need, with the discretionary allowance, for people to be made homeless. That is just the nonsense with which Labour Members want to scare everybody.

[Ms Buck]

rose—

[Mr Duncan Smith]

No, no; I am already answering the question. I do not agree and we do not agree with the statement that the adviser made. I have explained the issue to him personally, and he has accepted that.

[Ms Buck]

rose—

[Mr Duncan Smith]

No, I am not going to give way. I also want to say to the hon. Lady that she includes in her figures those who are in work with those on jobseeker’s allowance. She must not confuse two different positions, yet again trying to merge figures that are not right.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I am going to make progress. Labour Members continue to try to accelerate the figures to the worst level and then make ludicrous assumptions. That is what is going on. The fact is that we inherited 5 million people on out-of-work benefits from the Labour Government—the hon. Lady was in the Government—which they did nothing about at all. Two million people of working age are claiming incapacity benefit, of whom 900,000 have been claiming it for an entire decade.

The figures that lie behind this issue are astonishing. Today we spend £1 in £3 on British welfare, which that Government left us, yet youth unemployment is higher, inequality is greater and there are 800,000 more working-age adults in poverty than in 1998-99. That is the great record of the last Government.

[Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con)]

rose—

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The housing benefit reforms have to be seen in the context of that terrible bill that we were left. Housing benefit has rocketed from £14 billion in 2005-06 to nearly £22 billion in cash terms in 2010-11. By the way, I say to the right hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint), who I gather was on TV earlier saying that the benefit was basically in a steady state, that that is a real-terms 50% increase in the housing bill. That does not sound like a steady state to me or anybody else I know.

If left unreformed, the budget is projected to reach £24 billion in 2014-15. That is £1,500 per taxpayer per year. If Labour Members think that reasonable and fair—

[Mr Alexander]

rose—

[Mr Duncan Smith]

No, I am not giving way right now because somebody else wants to intervene. If Labour Members think that that budget is fair, they should say to taxpayers, “We think it’s fair to charge you, who are working hard, more, to give people housing that they could not afford if they were in work.”

[Andrew Griffiths]

I thank the Secretary of State for giving way. He will know that one of the myths put about by the Opposition was that councils in London were already booking bed and breakfasts across the city to cope with the consequences of this policy. I draw the Secretary of State’s attention to a website called FullFact.org, which has made some freedom of information requests to local authorities in London. I shall pick just a few. In Kensington and Chelsea, no such bookings have been made; in Wandsworth, no bookings have been made in bed and breakfasts; Lewisham council confirms that it has not made any bookings—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. That was supposed to be an intervention, not an opportunity to read statistics on to the record. I am sure the Secretary of State is perfectly capable of doing that himself.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend the Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) is right. That was based on one comment by one person, who backed it up with no evidence. The point here is that, as we are discussing with councils, there is no need for them to worry about having to put people into homeless accommodation because once we get these numbers right, which we believe we are doing, the money we will be allowing will be sufficient to cover the costs, such as for rents and school year changes, of those who may have to move, of whom there will be far fewer than the Opposition claim. That is the real point, so my hon. Friend is right. What did Labour do with the figure in question? They just used it by ramping it up and saying, “This is terrible, all these people are going to be shipped out to Reading or somewhere on the south coast”—another scare story put about by Labour. It is absurd.

[Mr Alexander]

rose—

[Mr Duncan Smith]

If the right hon. Gentleman wants to intervene yet again, he should take the opportunity to say something that he should have made clear in his speech: that he abhors all those who have frightened everybody over homelessness.

[Mr Alexander]

I am very happy to condemn people who frighten on the basis of figures, like those the right hon. Gentleman has just used to suggest the total housing benefit bill at the end of this Parliament, as that is premised on there being absolutely no change in this Parliament, despite the fact that in the first half of his speech he seemed to argue that we had had lots of reform proposals up our sleeve. Please may we have some logic and rationality? Either we were proposing to reform the system, in which case the figure will not be £24 billion, or we were not going to reform it, in which case it was. Which is it?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

There was nothing in the spending plans and Labour Members never had the courage to tell the general public what they were going to do. They fought an election on a false premise. [Interruption.] They pretended—[Interruption.] No, it was they who pretended. They fought an election on the false premise that somehow they were not going to have to make these changes and they were not going to be severe. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will now tell me by exactly how much they were planning to cut the housing budget; would he like me to give way so he can tell me that? He does not rise to his feet because he cannot argue that case; he is completely wrong. Labour says one thing to the public and something else in its private discussions.

I want to make one other important point. I recently appeared before the Select Committee and an Opposition Member put it to me that one reason the local housing allowance figures had risen so much was that there was not enough social housing. I agree, but who do we have to blame for that over the past 10 years? That is the point. [Interruption.] Yes, 13 years in total, but the situation was particularly bad during the last 10 of them.

We must remember that the previous Government left us with a house building record that is the lowest since the early 1920s. Affordable housing supply as a whole was down by more than a third under the last Government. On average, 21,800 social rented homes were built each year, even lower than the figure—which they used to argue was too low—achieved by the previous Conservative Government, which was 39,000 a year.

The reality is that Labour Members set a double whammy for themselves. They introduced an LHA which then rose because they did not build enough houses, and they allowed the whole private rented market to balloon, all because of their failure during their period in government. I hope they will apologise for that one day, but I suspect not.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Raynsford]

rose—

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I will give way in a minute.

Nine tenths of the rise in housing benefit in the past 10 years is down to increased rents. To put that into context, if that increased spend in rents going to private landlords had instead been used to invest in social housing, we would have had 80,000 social homes being built per year. I therefore wonder who Labour Members think has squandered the money they had flowing into the Exchequer. Political short-termism was the reason for that.

[Mr Raynsford]

rose—

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Okay, I will give way to the right hon. Gentleman as he was one of those responsible.

[Mr Raynsford]

Will the Secretary of State please now put the record straight and say that the increase in housing benefit attributable to rent increase covers both the social and the private sectors, and that the increase in housing association rents contributed to building the homes that were built? Will he now put the record straight and say it is completely wrong to imply that this is entirely going to private landlords when it is not?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

When the right hon. Gentleman is in a hole he should stop digging. The reality is that he was responsible for one of the lowest levels of building social housing. I do not know whether he is proud of that, but I would not be if I were sitting there with him.

We have to ensure that people who pay their way without recourse to benefits will no longer have to subsidise people who live in properties that the former could not afford. As I said, the maximum rate under the cap will be set at a level that is affordable and which some will consider generous. Based on what people spend on average on housing, the figure will be quite high; about £80,000 a year is what you would have to have.

[Mr Betts]

rose—

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Forgive me, but I am going to make some progress, as I have given way a lot. I might give way again later.

Through the emergency Budget and spending review, we proposed a set of housing benefit reforms designed to bring back under control a system that has been out of control. I accept that the responsibility of Government is always to get the balance right as we protect, incentivise, and ensure fairness in the system. Critically, for housing, that means getting the rents down. Landlords have a responsibility, and I am prepared and determined to work with councils, with the Mayor of London and with any other mayor to help get those rents down. We are the biggest purchaser of rents and I believe we will have a real role to play there. As I have pointed out, private rents have, in any case, dropped in the past year—Opposition Members need to recognise that that involves an actual figure, not one that they can conjure up like the rest of their stuff.

Let me remind the House how distorted the private rental market is. As I said, between November 2008 and February 2010 private rents fell by 5% and local housing allowance rates rose by 3%. LHA has now run its unaffordable course and we must turn it around; it fuelled a landlords’ charter to raise rents and has made housing more expensive for the whole population. It has not done any favours for those on low or marginal incomes; it has done them a great disservice. There are parts of central London where people can live only if they are on housing benefit or they are very wealthy. One could argue that Labour has socially cleared parts of London of working people who are trying to earn a living. That is the effect of what Labour has been doing. One would think that as the country grappled with the storm of the recession, these rents would come down, but they did not.

I agree with the right hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South that we must manage this transition, and I am happy to talk to him about how that works. We have sought to do that because local authorities still have a statutory duty to house people, and we will work with them as well; with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, we are working with councils right now on the transition plan. Our figures show that 96% of claimants will face a shortfall of below £20 per week and the vast majority of those will see a shortfall of over that figure—I remind people that this relates to a steady state and does not even begin to recognise what happens when the rents start to fall. If they fall by any small percentage, that changes the picture dramatically.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I have said that I have given way enough, so I am going to complete this. For where problems do arise, we have tripled the discretionary housing payment to £140 million. We will keep that under review; I am prepared, where necessary, even to add to that. We will not shy away from the duty of care to provide housing for those who cannot house themselves. A safety net will not just remain; it will be improved for the most vulnerable. That will be done through an increase in discretionary housing payments and an additional bedroom for non-resident carers—the previous Government should have provided that, but never did. If we are prepared to pay, as we are, some £20,000, there is no reason anyone should be left without a home. Our choices are tough but right, and we are weeks from regulations to fix the broken system.

We are in touching distance of changing things, including through producing, later this week, a welfare Bill that will put all this into context and that could change the whole prospect for the next generation as we improve work incentives, secure fairness, and protect the vulnerable. We will introduce a comprehensive work programme, which will support people going back to work in a way that has never been done before; we will build a universal credit system to ensure work pays; and we will get welfare spending under control to regain economic credibility and stability.

May I remind the House of something that the Opposition did when they were in government? They made changes when they sorted out the pathway back in 2005. At that time, they made an assumption that those who were renting could cope with an £18 increase in their rent, which they duly did. It is not as if it was we who were hammering people in difficulty; the Labour Government were already doing it and then they took their eye off the ball. That is why, over the last week, we have witnessed Labour’s confusion. Some Labour Members, although not the right hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South, to be fair to him, but a number of his colleagues—he knows this, and I am looking him in the eye—started to blow very faintly and then louder on the dog whistle, just trying to scare people outside, winding things up until they became ludicrous and he finally had to try to draw the tone back down to a reasonable level. I believe that the right hon. Gentleman is a reasonable man and that what we need is constructive dialogue—I am ready for that. He should say to his colleagues that if they want to show what it is really like to be in opposition preparing for government, they need to put the dog whistle away, change what they are doing and behave as though they have a credible plan.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Tony Lloyd]

I think that that was nearly the apology I sought, although it was not quite the apology that my constituents were entitled to hear from the hon. Gentleman, who supports this coalition. It was not quite the apology needed by those who will lose significant sums of money and will be forced to absorb that loss by not being able to spend their money on other things.

[Steve Webb]

I think the hon. Gentleman’s own manifesto pledged this precise policy.

[Tony Lloyd]

I am talking about the Minister’s policy. My right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South (Mr Alexander) made it clear what a Labour Government would have done. That was clear also from the statements of the then Secretary of State, and it was very different from the current Government’s proposals. The proposed income loss is not something that I recognise from any Labour manifesto.

The income loss will be significant for those in one, two or three-bedroom houses. In my constituency, for example, 8,000 people face an income loss of £12 to £14 a week. That sum may be trivial to a Minister or Secretary of State, but £12 to £14 is a significant part of the disposable income of somebody on housing benefit or on benefits more generally. The House ought not to countenance taking away that amount of money. It penalises the most vulnerable people in our society to prop up the Government’s policies. That is not scaremongering; it is a disgrace. Ministers and their supporters should recognise that.

There is another aspect of the proposals that we should not countenance. The Secretary of State made a long and complicated speech, which gave no comfort whatever to those in my constituency who will lose money. It gave no comfort to those who will potentially lose their homes. It gave no comfort because the right hon. Gentleman is far more concerned with the polemic of his speech than with the reality of human beings who will lose out in respect of both housing and their finances.

I hope that the right hon. Gentleman and others on the Government Benches will think again, particularly about some of the most difficult aspects of their proposals. There are parts of them which, with proper care and attention, we could all begin to agree with. The problem, at least in part, is the ridiculous speed of their implementation and the lack of acceptance of the impact that they will have. Were the Secretary of State to stand at the Dispatch Box and say that the Government are prepared to look again at the speed of their implementation, we might have a basis for real debate.

The worry among my constituents is that the proposals are driven, first, by concerns of budgetary restraint—the battle that the Secretary of State fought with the Chancellor and lost—and secondly, although this is a claim that I do not make against the Secretary of State, by the apparent desire among some of his Back Benchers to penalise the poorest and most vulnerable in our society. That rhetoric has come through in some of the debate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Raynsford]

The hon. Gentleman is going wide of the subject. The right to buy now has a relatively minor influence on the supply of housing, because most people in social rented housing are on incomes that make it impossible for them to buy. I would not change the current rules. I think it is right to have an option for people to buy, but in the current market there will not be many who take that up. I want the focus to be on securing a good supply of rented accommodation through social and private providers at rents that people can afford, supported by a proper benefit system.

We know that a substantial number of local housing allowance recipients are in properties where the rent is higher than the LHA. I have quoted the answer given by the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Thornbury and Yate (Steve Webb), earlier this month that 48% of LHA recipients had to meet a shortfall because their rent was higher than the LHA. It is absurd for the Government to argue that the LHA is driving increases in rent, when the evidence that I quoted from the Evening Standard shows that it is the private market and the huge demand in the private market that is driving the increase. A very high proportion of LHA recipients will find it increasingly hard to compete, because their LHA is already below the rent that they are paying.

[Steve Webb]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Raynsford]

No. I will not give way because I have very little time left. The Minister should remember that private tenants who are dependent on housing benefit may find that they are priced out of the market as a result of the Government’s policies. I am surprised that he and his party are prepared to countenance that.

The hard questions that Ministers must answer—they have not done so—is simply: where will the tens, and perhaps hundreds, of thousands of LHA recipients go when their allowance is cut to a level that makes it impossible for them to make up the shortfall, and their landlord declines to reduce the rent?

[Steve Webb]

The right hon. Gentleman cited a £500 rent on a four-bedroom property—he quoted that from a newspaper—which is above our cap. Is it his policy that taxpayers should pay someone £500 for a four-bedroom property?

[Mr Raynsford]

No, it is not, and the point has already been made that that is not a housing benefit letting; it is a market letting being driven by the market. The Minister finds that difficult to understand because of his extraordinary prejudice that the local housing allowance is somehow driving the increase. I would have thought that he understood that, because he has some grasp of economics. He should also understand the cumulative effect of a series of such changes: not just the cap, not just the local housing allowance, but the change in non-dependant deductions, the restriction of the entitlement of social housing tenants of working age who are deemed to occupy larger accommodation than they need, the extension of the shared room rate to single applicants aged 35—the hon. Member for Cardiff Central (Jenny Willott) raised that anxiety—the change to the uprating formula using the consumer prices index rather than the retail prices index, the 10% cut in benefits for those on jobseeker’s allowance for more than a year, and the overall cap on benefit entitlement. Cumulatively, those changes will have a devastating effect. Why has the Minister, with his distinguished background in social policy, not insisted on proper appraisals of the cumulative impact, and the impact over a period, of all the changes, which will have dire consequences for many people on very low incomes?

This is not evidence-based policy making; it is faith-based policy making, using assumptions that most of the commentators in the outside world who have a real understanding of these things believe to be seriously flawed. I put it to the Minister that unless the Government can give us evidence that their policy will reduce rents in the private sector—for which there is not a shred of convincing evidence—and that the cumulative impact of the changes will not have dire consequences for many vulnerable people, the only decent thing for them to do is to withdraw their package and say that they will look again at the measures and discuss with the Opposition agreed arrangements to deal with abuses of the system without causing vulnerable people to suffer. If they do that, they will have our support. If they do not, I hope that all hon. Members with open minds will vote for the motion tonight.

--- Later in debate ---

[Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) (Lab)]

Let me begin by referring the House to my declaration in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.

I am grateful to you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for calling me to speak in this important debate, and I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd), although I beg to differ with her interesting interpretation of the word “fairness”.

The Government’s £1.8 billion cuts in housing benefit will push the most vulnerable families in our society into poverty and debt. It has been estimated that up to 12,000 households in the north-east could be made homeless. The Government are using extreme examples to justify their wholesale swingeing cuts, but the simple truth is that most housing benefit recipients are low-income, hard-working families, pensioners, carers, and people with disabilities. The housing charity Shelter estimates that only one in eight housing benefit recipients is unemployed. We should not lose sight of the fact that housing benefit is also an in-work benefit. In fact, the average housing benefit award to private sector tenants in Sunderland is just £93 per week, and for social tenants it is even less: £69 per week.

What concerns me most is that the cuts in housing benefit will affect not only hard-working, low-income families, but pensioners. In Sunderland alone, more than 20,000 housing benefit recipients are over 60. Those people have contributed to society throughout their lives, but in return—when they need help from the state at the time when they are at their most vulnerable—their security is threatened, and they are treated as mere statistics.

[Steve Webb]

I am sure that the hon. Lady does not wish to alarm pensioners in her constituency. The figures that she has given relate to housing benefit, which applies overwhelmingly to social tenants who will not be affected by this change. Will she correct the record?

[Bridget Phillipson]

What I will say is that many older tenants will move into different tenancies at different points, and will be affected by the changes that the Government are introducing. Many older people will, at times, vacate social homes and move into the private sector as their needs require, and may be affected by the Government’s changes. The only alarm being caused is coming from the Government Benches. I hope that the Minister will think again about some of these measures.

The Chartered Institute of Housing summed things up best when it stated that the Government’s motive

“appears to be reducing expenditure with little co-ordination or regard for the purpose of the benefit itself.”

This is not a genuine attempt to reform housing benefit and introduce a better system in its place; this is a Treasury-driven hit on the poorest and most vulnerable in our society.

--- Later in debate ---

[Glenda Jackson]

If the hon. Gentleman had been here from the beginning of this debate, he would not have been as ill informed as he is ill mannered. There are not people in my constituency claiming housing benefit at that rate, as I have had occasion to say. The majority of housing benefit claimants live in one and two-bedroom properties. We have already said that we would certainly introduce a cap, but not by the method that his Government propose. There should be a regional element.

[Steve Webb]

indicated dissent.

[Glenda Jackson]

From a sedentary position, the Minister is waving his hands in disbelief. This afternoon he was leaping to the Dispatch Box asking questions about what my party would have done if we had been in government. He knows, and I know, that if my party had been in government and his party had still been in opposition, and we had introduced the policies that he is supporting now, he would have fought them tooth and nail.

The Minister has absolutely no cover any more. As I have had occasion to say before in the House, his party has become the “30 pieces of silver” party, and nowhere is that more marked than in what it is proposing to do to some of the most vulnerable people in all our constituencies. I say to Government Members that the problem is not exclusively London’s; this will affect the whole country. When the second tranche of the Government’s approach to social housing comes in—the increase of rents to at least 80% and the removal of secure tenancies—the impact will run and run.

--- Later in debate ---

[Caroline Flint]

The hon. Gentleman was not here for the debate, so I will not give way.

Reducing people’s housing benefit when they have been out of work for a year does not help them to get a job. It punishes them for not having one, and we reject that entirely. The Government say that reducing housing benefit will bring rents down. Landlords themselves tell us otherwise, however, with 90% saying that they will be less likely to take on people on housing benefit. That means that there will be more people chasing fewer homes, which will drive rents up, not bring them down.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

They would say that.

[Caroline Flint]

The Secretary of State might say that, but I find it difficult to understand, given the question marks over the impact on rents of the Government’s plans, why they are not doing a more thorough job of getting the evidence to prove that their policies are right. I have heard the Minister for Housing—who is not here tonight; he obviously does not think it worth while—say on a number of occasions that he has evidence to back up his idea that rents will go down, but he has refused to provide that evidence. We have seen no sign of it.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich and my hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield made strong points about the rented sector. They said that the Government’s policies on housing benefit reform and their lack of a plan for housing supply would do nothing to tackle the issue of rents. Let us be honest about this: the Government have completely rejected the findings of the Rugg review, which we initiated to tackle some of the problems in the private rented sector.

Much has been said about our record on housing, so let me say something about that. Two million more homes were built, there are now 500,000 more affordable homes and 1 million more homeowners, and 1.5 million homes have been brought up to a decent standard. Homelessness was cut by 75%, and no family spends longer than six weeks in a bed and breakfast. In the face of the global financial crisis, the worst of its kind for 70 years, Labour did not walk by on the other side. We took action and supported families to stay in their homes. We prevented 300,000 families who might otherwise have lost their homes—and who would have lost their homes had the Tories been in power—from doing so. That is the reality. That is our record, and it stands in contrast to the mess the Tories left us.

Many thought that bringing so many homes up to a decent standard in such a short space of time would prove impossible. It did not. However, it did come at the cost of not building as many homes as we would have wanted. I agree with the hon. Member for Colchester and some of my hon. Friends who have referenced that tonight. Let us not forget that the reason why we had to focus on decent homes and bring them up to standard was the desperate situation we inherited from the last Conservative Government in 1997.

--- Later in debate ---

[Caroline Flint]

The hon. Gentleman should look at Hansard. I said quite clearly that we are not against looking at caps, and we are prepared to look at regional variations as well, but that would have to be planned and done properly over time.

Let me tell the Housing Minister that last year, in the teeth of recession, we built more homes in one year than the Government will build in any of the next five years. Since this Government came to power, local councils have ditched plans for new homes at the rate of 1,300 every single day. In the comprehensive spending review, the housing budget was demolished by devastating cuts of more than 50%. As a result, according to the independent National Housing Federation, once the homes Labour started building are completed, no new social homes at all will be built in the next five years.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

In response to the right hon. Lady and the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), she has said for the first time in this debate—her right hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State has also said it—that Labour Members are in favour of a cap. Will they please explain something to us? We have put our proposals forward. What level of cap do they now favour?

[Caroline Flint]

We have said quite clearly—not just today, but in a speech my right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South made last Friday and in an article that I wrote last week—that we will look at the issue of caps. What we have said is that whatever cap is chosen on whatever basis, it must be planned, phased in and must ensure that people are not turfed out of their homes, put into bed-and-breakfast accommodation or made homeless. The Tories have not been able to answer any of those questions.

The fact is that one part of Government is working on one track for housing benefit reform, but there is no joined-up thinking with the Department for Communities and Local Government on housing supply. That is not a plan of action for housing, but a recipe for chaos and it does nothing to help cut the housing benefit bill. It is not only Labour Members who say that; dozens of Tory MPs have been to see the Secretary of State to tell him why these plans will not work. We have heard about the Conservative Mayor of London and we know that Tory council leaders across the south-east have warned that the dispersal of people that these policies will create will place an unbearable burden on services that are already stretched to breaking point.

There is a better way of doing this. We want to reform housing benefit, but in a way that is fair and that does not end up costing us more than it saves. I urge Liberal Democrat Members and perhaps a few on the Tory Benches to join us in the Lobby and speak up for their constituents.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Steve Webb)]

This has been a worthwhile debate. We have learned a number of things. Most of all, we have learned that no Labour MP actually read the manifesto on which they stood. [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Hon. Members are in a state of almost uncontrolled excitement. I want to hear the Minister talking about his position, and about manifestos.

[Steve Webb]

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Housing benefit will be reformed so that we do not subsidise people to live in the private sector on rents that other ordinary working families could not afford. When we do that, Labour Members are against it. When we propose a cap, they are in favour of it —until we set a figure, and then they are against it. When we propose to cut non-dependant deductions they are in favour of that—unless it actually affects anyone. The shadow Secretary of State said that he wanted regional caps, when the cap would principally affect central London, because he does not want a cap that actually caps anyone. What we need are credible Opposition propositions, not opportunism.

Three main themes have emerged from the debate. The first is that the impact of these changes has been grossly exaggerated. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said at the beginning, talk of highland clearances and the final solution is a disgrace. My hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal) pointed out how offensive such language is to people, but even in this debate we have heard talk of highland clearances, and of Paris.

The right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy) does not seem to appreciate that in substantial parts of central London—in the borough of Southwark, for example—48% of properties are in the social rented sector, and will not be affected by either the cuts or the percentiles. The suggestion that central London will be devoid of people on low incomes is complete nonsense. If the right hon. Gentleman wants to correct himself, he is welcome to do so.

[Mr Lammy]

The Minister proposes to increase social rents to 80% of private rents, which will lead to a removal of poor people from central London. The Minister knows that.

[Steve Webb]

I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman has followed the proposition. It involves new houses and new build. People in existing tenancies do not face that change.

We have heard talk of the impact of these changes. I appreciate that it is a shame to introduce facts at 9.45 pm, but I shall give it a try. As was pointed out by the Chairman of the Select Committee, the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Miss Begg), this is not just a London issue, but obviously the impact of the cap will be felt particularly in London. There are 400,000 people on housing benefit in inner London, which ought to be where the impact will be greatest. Of those, 313,000, or 77%, will be unaffected because they are in social tenancies, and a further 30,000, or 7%, will be unaffected because they are in the non-local housing allowance sector. That adds up to 84%. A further 6% receive local housing allowance, but will not be affected. That means that 90% of people on housing benefit in central London will not be affected at all, while another 3% will be affected by less than £10 a week.

The mistake made during the debate is that people have assumed that any shortfall is equivalent to homelessness. That is a ludicrous leap. We know that people experience shortfalls in a number of ways. Of all the people on housing benefit in central London, 7% will experience shortfalls of more than £10 if there is no change in rents.

[Mr Raynsford]

Will the Minister confirm that he has just misled the House? Tenants in social housing will be subject to increased non-dependant deductions. The housing benefit of those who have received jobseeker’s allowance for 12 months will be terminated or reduced by 10%, and the benefit of those who are deemed to be occupying accommodation larger than they need will be reduced as well. All those social tenants will be affected by the Minister’s changes. Will he now admit that?

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I think that the right hon. Gentleman intended to include the word “inadvertently” in his intervention.

[Steve Webb]

I am sure that he inadvertently forgot, Mr Speaker.

The impact of the cap, the impact of the 30th percentile and the impact of the removal of the £15 excess have been elided in the debate. The hon. Member for Houghton and Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson) mentioned the figure of 20,000 pensioners in her constituency—most of whom will not be affected by any of the changes. As I was explaining, less than 10% of people receiving housing benefit in the area most likely to be affected—inner London—will experience shortfalls of more than 10%.

The exaggerated impact has been made clear. However, one point has not been made clear. It has been suggested that the private rented sector is somehow an oasis of stability and settled communities, but there is massive churn in that sector. I want to give an example of that. The people affected by the caps and the 30th percentile are on local housing allowance. Local housing allowance was introduced in April 2008, so pretty much all those people did not even move into their current properties until April 2008; in the vast majority of cases they have lived in them for less than three years. The idea that we are suddenly churning up some settled permanent community is complete nonsense.

[Emily Thornberry]

The hon. Gentleman is saying that a huge proportion of people will not be affected, but let us say, for example, that we are doing our best to move a woman in Islington from a three-bedroom house into a smaller flat. Would she lose her secure tenancy if she moved?

[Steve Webb]

When there are specific instances of vulnerable people about whom local authorities have concerns, those local authorities have discretion to do something about the situation. But when people might reasonably be expected to move, that, of course, is part of the equation. If everybody went on staying exactly where they were at the same rent, there would have been no point to the policy.

On the basis of the debate so far, Mr Speaker, you would imagine that this year’s £21.5 billion housing benefit budget was about to be slashed. [Interruption.] Labour Front Benchers are saying that it is.

[Mr Douglas Alexander]

indicated dissent.

[Steve Webb]

Sorry; the shadow Secretary of State is disowning the right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford), who got it wrong. In 2014-15 the housing benefit budget will have been “slashed” from £21.5 billion to £22 billion. We are not slashing. We are making changes.

It has been said that we are being too hasty. The Labour party has decided that after 13 years of making the problem worse, doing something about it is “hasty”. Labour was so unhasty that it never got round to doing anything about the problem before it lost office. We are getting a grip.

First, we have established that the impact of the changes has been grossly exaggerated. Secondly, we have established that rents will not stay as they are. During the debate it has been suggested that the fact that the British taxpayer is putting more than £20 billion a year into housing benefit has no impact on the market. We, the taxpayers, pay housing benefit towards 40% of private rented tenancies. It is a long time since I studied economics, but I reckon if we pay for 40% of the tenancies and we put £20 billion a year into the market, we might just be having some impact.

[Sheila Gilmore]

The hon. Gentleman is using the figure of 40%. Recent research done both in Scotland and England is completely different. It produces a figure of 20%. In fact, in Scotland it was 17%; the report was produced for the Scottish Government. Only 8% of that was for housing benefit. We need to see the evidence that differs from the research that the Government themselves commissioned.

[Steve Webb]

I am not sure what the hon. Lady is questioning. Some 40% of private rented sector tenancies have housing benefit. That is a fact.

As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State pointed out earlier, people have said in this debate that rents will not fall. There is an assumption that rents have to go up. I have news for those people: since November 2008 private sector rents have fallen by 5%, while LHA rents have risen by 3%. So there is a void. That is further evidence. Opposition Members have asked for evidence, and here is clear evidence that LHA is driving up rents.

[Mr Slaughter]

Will the Minister give way?

[Steve Webb]

Will the hon. Gentleman allow me? I want to respond to 35 different contributions; I hope that he will forgive me for responding to the debate.

My hon. Friend the Member for North East Hertfordshire (Mr Heald) pointed out how LHA is inflating the market. LHA rents are on average 10% higher than the housing benefit rents that have carried on from the previous system—more and more evidence that we, through our taxes, including taxes on hard-working families, are inflating rents. That is not benefiting tenants. During the debate it has been suggested that we are against the tenants, but we are actually against our taxes being spent on inflated rents, because that is not what the money should be for.

We have established that if we can get a grip on the rents, that will benefit tenants and help people in lower-paid work to pay those rents. There have been exaggerated stories about the impact, an assumption that rents will not fall, although we believe that our changes will have an impact, and thirdly—

[Mr Slaughter]

When the local housing allowance was introduced, the hon. Gentleman wrote on his website:

“Proposals of this sort risk creating ‘ghettos’ where low-income tenants are forced to move to accommodation in lower rent parts of town, whilst those who are better off continue to rent the best properties.”

When did he change his mind and stop worrying about that problem?

[Steve Webb]

That is interesting. I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman still supports the housing benefit cut taking away the £15 excess that the Labour party was going to introduce before the general election. If I remember rightly, Labour delayed that cut by one year—until after the election. Does the hon. Gentleman still support that Labour cut in housing benefit? I suspect not.

It is important that we have a discussion about fairness. My hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Bob Russell) raised the situation of vulnerable people, particularly families with children. We are clear, first, that the impact of the changes as a whole is much narrower than has been assumed; secondly, that they will have an impact on rents, which will reduce the shortfalls and the number of people who will have to move; and thirdly, that there will be individual vulnerable cases. My hon. Friend is right to say that the position of families with children is very important. That is why we have trebled the money available to local authorities for discretionary housing payments specifically to help the most vulnerable. I recently had a conversation about a London authority that estimated that it would need to double its discretionary housing payments to cover these costs. We are trebling them, which we believe will enable local authorities to address the situation of the vulnerable households about which my hon. Friend is rightly concerned. I am grateful to him for raising that point.

The issue of fairness was raised by other Members too. My hon. Friends the Members for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd) and for South Thanet (Laura Sandys) rightly pointed out that many low-paid workers cannot begin to afford the sorts of rents we are paying for housing benefit recipients. The Labour party used to agree with us on that. Since they became the Opposition, however, they have stopped agreeing with themselves. There is a fairness issue therefore, and as we bring down rents we will improve the fairness of the system.

One of the key issues is housing supply, which my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester and others also raised. The shadow Communities and Local Government Secretary, the right hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint), rightly raised that issue as well. However, the housing shortage was caused by the Labour party, which failed to build sufficient numbers of houses when in office. Many Labour Members said that they wished the situation was different. Well, they had 13 years to make it different. It is no good their wishing in opposition that houses had been built. As they held the levers of power and they did not pull them, they have to accept and live with the consequences. That is why I welcome what my ministerial colleagues at the Department for Communities and Local Government are doing to generate new social house building so that there will be diversity in the social housing sector, with the most subsidised rents and also near-market rents—80% of market rents—which will provide the resources needed for the significant increase of 150,000 new social homes. We desperately need that increase during the course of this Parliament.

Many Members raised issues about the disincentive effects of the housing benefit system, and I want to draw attention in particular to the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois). He made some powerful points about the fact that once people are in work and on housing benefit—I do accept that there are people in work and on housing benefit—the benefits systems then traps them, because if they want to do extra work they face very high marginal withdrawal rates. My hon. Friend highlighted the situation of people who are in work and do not want to do more hours because they will just find that their housing benefit is withdrawn. That is a crazy system: we, the taxpayers, pay £21 billion a year to subsidise rents, and put inflation into rents, and then we expect people to do low-paid work, and as soon as they do more work we claw the money back.

That is going to change. This Government are doing to do something about it. On Thursday my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will announce plans to take forward the proposition of a universal credit, whereby for the first time people will be guaranteed to be better off in work.

[Ms Rosie Winterton (Doncaster Central) (Lab)]

claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).

Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.

Question agreed to.

Main Question accordingly put.

The House proceeded to a Division.

--- Later in debate ---

21:59

Division 113

Ayes: 258

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Labour: 236
Democratic Unionist Party: 7
Scottish National Party: 5
Social Democratic & Labour Party: 3
Plaid Cymru: 3
Independent: 3
Alliance: 1
Green Party: 1
Liberal Democrat: 1

Noes: 319

---

Conservative: 272
Liberal Democrat: 46