Household Support Fund: Children’s Bed Poverty

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Thursday 21st March 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Manchester]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact of the Household Support Fund on children’s bed poverty.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)]

My Lords, an evaluation of the current household support fund scheme is under way to better understand the impact of the funding. In the Spring Budget, the Chancellor announced an extension to the household support fund in England for a further six months, meaning that the Government will ensure that targeted support is available for those facing the most challenging financial circumstances as inflation falls. Subject to local decisions, this funding may be used to purchase beds and other household essentials for those in need.

[The Lord Bishop of Manchester]

I thank the Minister for that Answer, and indeed for the fact that the Government extended the household support fund for another six months. But this morning the Government’s latest statistics on child poverty have been published: 4.3 million children are now growing up in poverty. That is an increase of 100,000 since figures were last published, equivalent to the population of a town the size of Eastbourne. With the household support fund due to end again in September, will the Government use these next six months to carefully consider a longer-term strategy than funding settlements for local crisis support, which is a lifeline for children and their families?

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

The Government have kept the household support fund under review, as with all such schemes. Given the changing circumstances, including falling inflation, it was important to consider this in the round as part of the Spring Budget. The right reverend Prelate will know that this is now the fifth household support fund scheme and, following their experience of previous schemes, we know that local authorities and their partners are well placed to deliver support to those in need in particular areas.

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, the Work and Pensions Select Committee in the other place has just published a report into benefit levels, clearly carried out on the basis of the evidence submitted, which showed that claimants are often not able to afford daily living costs and extra costs associated with having a health condition or disability. In view of those findings, will the Minister talk with his ministerial colleagues in the DWP and ensure a review of benefits and welfare based on the essential principle of need, which includes the operating of benefits commensurate with that level of need in our wider community, including the household support fund?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Of course I will take that point back, but the noble Baroness will be aware that much thought and work is going into this area. In terms of targeted support locally, she will know that the Government have delivered a balanced package of funding through the local government finance settlement for this coming year, 2024-25, which makes available up to £64.7 billion for local authorities in England to target in the right place. I reassure her that this targets the deprived areas of England, particularly the upper decile of the index of multiple deprivation, and they will receive 18% more per dwelling in available resource than the least deprived areas.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, I very much welcome the Government’s decision to extend the household support fund for a further six months, but further to the right reverend Prelate’s supplementary question, I ask: what steps can my noble friend take to ensure a smooth transition, particularly for families with children, when the scheme comes to an end on 30 September—which may be a sensitive time in the political calendar?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I am well aware of the sensitivities if decisions are made for that particular time. We will have to wait and see. But as inflation falls, as in the good news yesterday with the fall to 3.4%, and with evidence of some price falls and, as the Prime Minister said yesterday, some evidence of some green shoots, notably with energy prices coming down as well, the Government will want to take careful stock over the next few months. Of course, any decision on the future of the household support fund after 30 September will be a matter for the Chancellor when he deems the timing to be right.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, it is vital that the household support fund continues, but the sad reality of children’s bed poverty is that it stems from systemic problems with our benefit system, which keeps people in deep poverty. Does the Minister agree that the most efficient and effective means of reducing child poverty is to lift the two-child limit? It is not just the right thing to do to end hardship now but the best route in which to end the cycle of poverty for future generations.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

We are very alert to the issue of child poverty. Tackling child poverty is incredibly important, and we have set out a clear and sustainable approach based on evidence of the important role that parental employment plays in reducing the risk of child poverty. But it is more than that. The Question focuses on bed poverty, and it is good to mention that the household support fund can be used to ameliorate bed poverty. There are some examples that the noble Lord may know of, particularly in Bolton and Oldham.

[Baroness D'Souza (CB)]

Despite the many different kinds of benefits that the Government provide, the evidence suggests that deep poverty remains stubbornly high, at 7% of the population. Does not this suggest that what is needed is a public health approach, whereby there is a co-ordinated strategy by central, national and local government, including business, civic society and communities to develop multi-year schemes to address the damaging social consequences of such poverty?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes a very good point of tackling poverty not over one year but over several years. She will know that we will spend £276 billion through the welfare system in the coming year, 2024-25, including around £125 billion on people of working age and children. This is very much work in progress. Bearing in mind the point behind her question, I can say that my department, the DWP, is working ever more closely with the DHSC and other necessary departments to take a range of initiatives forward.

[Baroness Thornton (Lab)]

I cannot resist making the point that the last Labour Government actually lifted hundreds of thousands of children out of poverty. It is welcome that the Government, with less than a month to go, have renewed the household support fund temporarily. The last time that noble Lords discussed this issue at Oral Questions, I asked the Minister how the Government would work on long-term strategies to fight poverty rather than short-term measures renewed only at the last minute. My question remains very much the same: given that two-thirds of children growing up in poverty live in a household where one adult works, are the Government going to work to create long-term stability and security for families, including those experiencing in-work poverty?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Again, the noble Baroness has made a good point about looking beyond a year and taking a long-term view. More than 26 million awards of support were made between October 2021 and March 2023 across the first of the household support fund schemes. I reassure her that the largest category of spend has been on food support, including support during school holidays, targeted particularly at children who receive free school meals in term time. The focus on children is incredibly important and should be continued.

[Baroness Buscombe (Con)]

My Lords, I pay tribute to my noble friend and his department for all they are doing in terms of a long-term strategy. Given that we are about to pay out something like £290 billion in that one department this year, which is entirely unsustainable if the Government are to support defence, our health service and everything else as well, surely the best way in which to take people out of poverty is to help them into work. That is something that the department is focused on. The opposite party for years has preferred to keep people trapped in poverty. Am I not right that he is doing the right thing?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My noble friend is absolutely right. The House will know—and I shall say this again—that this is one of the ways forward. The most important thing is for people to be in work. She will know, for example, that we have brought the figure down for workless households very substantially since 2009-10.

[Lord Bird (CB)]

With eight different government departments dealing with poverty, is not it time that we actually co-ordinated our dismantling of poverty by bringing in a government department that deals exclusively with poverty prevention?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I am very aware of the noble Lord’s interest in this area. I recall the debate that he led on about three weeks ago, which I was involved in. I have very much taken note of his view. We do not agree that there needs to be such a high level of focus on poverty. Having said all that, I think that he is aware of the huge number of initiatives that we are taking, particularly cross-government, in tackling poverty, particularly child poverty.

Housing Benefit: Temporary Accommodation

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Wednesday 28th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Thornhill (LD)]

I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and declare my interest as a vice-president of the Local Government Association.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government recognise the challenges that local authorities face in responding to the increased demand for temporary housing. Our priority is to support claimants and keep people in their homes. From April, we are investing £1.2 billion to increase the local housing allowance, benefiting 1.6 million claimants and helping to prevent homelessness. In England, our £1.2 billion investment in the local authority housing fund provides capital funding directly to councils to build new homes. Additionally, our £2 billion investment over three years tackles homelessness and rough sleeping.

[Baroness Thornhill (LD)]

I thank the noble Viscount for his Answer. What my Question was really getting at was whether there has been an assessment of the adequacy of what is being allocated. Is it enough and is it going to the right places? Stark evidence from the Local Government Association, London Councils and the District Councils’ Network would say that clearly it is not. A survey by the DCN, which was published just today, shows that housing benefit subsidy covers just 38% of district councils’ temporary accommodation costs. Can the Minister explain why the housing benefit subsidy for families and councils using temporary accommodation has been frozen since 2011, despite rising costs and dwindling supply? Does he agree that much has changed in that time, and it is time that the rate changed too?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

The subject that the noble Baroness has raised is to do with temporary housing, and we appreciate that these remain difficult times and that local authorities are subject to many pressures. We will continue to review the situation with housing benefit subsidy rates, but perhaps I can help the noble Baroness by saying that, following the Autumn Statement back in 2023, the Government announced additional funding of £120 million to help councils address in particular the Ukraine situation and homelessness pressures looking ahead to 2024-25. Today, I am pleased to say that it has been announced that England’s share of the £120 million is £109 million, which is to be paid via the homelessness prevention grant top-up for the year 2024-25.

[Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, the undersupply of social housing has meant that spending on temporary accommodation has increased by a staggering 62% over the last five years. Yesterday, Shelter and the National Housing Federation published new research by the CEBR on the economic impact of building social housing. It showed the massive economic and social benefits of building 90,000 new social rented homes and found that delivering social housing at this scale would save nearly £250 million a year on the benefits budget, result in £4.5 billion in housing benefit savings and save local authorities £245 million a year on homelessness services. What action can the Government take to urgently improve delivery of social housing and reverse this vicious cycle?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

The noble Baroness is right that building more houses and finding more houses, including social housing but also in the private rented sector and for homeowners, is incredibly important. We remain committed to our target of delivering 300,000 homes a year in England. We also recognise that the planning system can be complex. The levelling up White Paper marked an important moment, making clear the scale of our ambition to address the inequalities for communities right across the country, which I think was the gist of the noble Baroness’s question.

[Baroness Eaton (Con)]

My Lords, I also declare my interest as a vice-president of the Local Government Association. Research by the Local Government Association confirms that government could save £780 in housing benefit for every social home that is built. Will my noble friend the Minister explore the option of making the 100% retention of right-to-buy receipts permanent, so that local authorities have the fiscal powers necessary to build the next generation of social housing?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Indeed, and my noble friend has much experience in this field from her long experience in local government. I will certainly take that back: I cannot give any guarantees right now at the Dispatch Box.

[The Archbishop of York]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his commitment to trying to make headway on this issue. We are all aware of the terrible strains that local authorities are under because of temporary accommodation being necessary and, of course, we also know that the reason is that incomes are just not meeting housing needs. Have the Government assessed the recent proposal from the Joseph Rowntree Foundation and the Trussell Trust for what they call an essentials guarantee? This would guarantee that universal credit was enough to cover the essentials—rent—which would therefore reduce the number of households in temporary accommodation, creating a virtuous cycle that would reduce the budget strain on local councils.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Yes, I am very aware of the “essentials” argument that often comes up in this Chamber. I do not have any answer for the most reverend Primate except to say that we note the questions that are put on that point. I shall go a little further, because he started by mentioning housing pressures. The £1.2 billion local housing fund enables councils in England to obtain better-quality temporary accommodation for those owed a homelessness duty. That is our way of making sure that there is some progress on homes.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, unaccountably, I am not a vice-president of the Local Government Association—no one has asked me to become one, but who knows?

A number of issues come into play here, but, basically, councils are probably going to spend heading for £2 billion on temporary accommodation this year. They have to pay up front to procure the accommodation, and then they can get back some but not all of it—and increasingly not all of it—from central government. The reality is that they are paying the price for the fact that we do not have a functioning housing system, and the Government, despite being in power for quite a long time, have an ambition but, so far, seem not to have the will to solve that problem. I am guessing that the Minister and the DWP are going to DLUHC Ministers and saying, “What are you going to do to solve this problem?” What answer are they getting?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

We have already taken some actions, and the noble Baroness will know that on 24 January this year the Government announced additional measures for local authorities in England worth £600 million. This includes £500 million of new funding for councils with responsibility for adult and children’s social care, distributed through the social care grant. Taking into account this new funding, local government in England will see an increase in core spending power of up to £4.5 billion next year.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that if you look at any high street in the country, you will see many empty flats above shops, particularly above national multiples? Is he aware that, in Norfolk, Freebridge housing association has done an absolutely sterling job in leasing such flats and then renting them out as temporary accommodation, and to permanent tenants as well? Can he tell the House what more can be done to make the most of this underused resource?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Absolutely. Although I do not have a particular answer to the noble Lord’s question, I have certainly been reading about some innovative programmes to reinvigorate properties and give them different uses, not only in high streets but in more central areas. This is just the sort of creative thinking that is required to produce more housing, which of course then leads to people moving out of poverty.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, I have relevant interests in this issue. Does the noble Lord agree that it is not just the excessive cost of temporary accommodation that we should be thinking about but the huge disruption to family life and children’s education when they have to move into temporary housing? At the heart of it is the huge loss of social housing; in my own council, there are 20,000 fewer houses for social rent than there were 20 years ago. The Government’s proposals will not address this huge issue. When are they going to up their game to provide the social housing that is desperately needed?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Again, I can say that quite a lot of action is going on this field. The noble Baroness started off by talking about families, and we know that children—who have been a theme of today’s questions—can be affected by living in temporary housing, particularly poor-quality housing. The £1.2 billion local authority housing fund enables councils in England to obtain better-quality temporary accommodation for those owed a duty to be found a home. We want children in particular to grow in a safe and secure home and are committed to a strong welfare system to support those most in need.

UNICEF: Child Poverty Rankings

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Wednesday 28th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rooker]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the position of the United Kingdom set out in the UNICEF’s Innocenti Report Card 18 Child Poverty in the Midst of Wealth.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)]

My Lords, parental employment plays an important role in reducing the risk of child poverty, and there are 680,000 fewer children growing up in workless households compared with 2010. In 2023-24, we expect to spend around £124 billion through the welfare system on people of working age and children. With over 900,000 vacancies UK-wide, our focus is on supporting parents into, and to progress in, work, including through increasing the national living wage to £11.44 from April.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

My Lords, the actual Answer to my Question should be “With shame”. Can the Minister explain why child poverty rate changes in the seven years from 2014 to 2021, adjusted for Covid, on page 27 of the UNICEF report card published two months ago, showed that in two-thirds of the rich nations child poverty rates went down, whereas in four of the worst five nations they were up by 10%? Worst of all, rated 39 out of 39, was the UK, where the poverty rate was up by 20%. Is it not time for an election?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

The Government like to read all reports and regard this one with a great deal of interest. However, our argument is that it is hard to give these findings much weight, due to the methodology used to create this ranking. Let me explain. International comparisons of poverty rates are difficult, due to differences in the frequency and timing of data collection and the approach taken to gather this data.

I shall go further. UNICEF’s ranking uses two measures: recent rates of relative child poverty and the percentage change in those rates over an arbitrary comparison period. There are issues with both measures. First, in considering recent child poverty rates, the latest OECD data shows that the UK has a relative poverty rate for nought to 17 year-olds comparable to large European countries. Secondly, UNICEF’s ranking compares relative poverty rates between 2012-14 and 2019-21.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, paid work is hardly the answer, as the Minister suggested, given that the majority of children in poverty are in families with a parent in paid work. He goes on about the methodology, but he knows very well the evidence of hardship and deepening poverty in this country. Is it not time the Government accepted the case made by UNICEF and many others for a coherent, cross-government child poverty strategy?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

The noble Baroness will have heard me say this before, but we believe that the best route out of poverty is through work. We are committed to a sustainable long-term approach to tackling child poverty in particular—the subject of this Question—and supporting people on lower incomes to progress in work. She will know that in April 2023, we uprated benefit rates by 10.1%, and working-age benefits will rise by 6.7% from April 2024, in line with inflation. But we are very aware of the pressures that quite a few households are experiencing.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, the figures are truly devastating and very worrying. Can the Minister tell the House whether the Government have related those child poverty figures to the mental health of young people, as referred to in a report that came out a few days ago? Is there a relationship—and what are the Government doing about it?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I have given the Government’s view on this scorecard—and, by the way, it is a scorecard, not a report, we should be careful to say. But the noble Lord makes a good point. What I can say is that we are looking at a new type of measure: the Department for Work and Pensions is developing the below average resources statistics to provide a new additional measure of poverty, based on the approach proposed by the Social Metrics Commission, led by my noble friend Lady Stroud.

The noble Lord makes a very good point about children. It is very important to get the statistics accurate. The importance of children remains very much live in our minds.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, in addition to combating the financial disadvantage facing some 69 million children in the 43 wealthiest countries in the world, as identified in the UNICEF report referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, does the Minister agree that poverty can be about more than simply money? How do the Government measure the impact on the life chances of 2 million British children who have minimal contact with their fathers—69% of whom are in the low- income categories—in the households in which they live?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Again, the noble Lord raises an important point about children, who are the subject of this Question. The latest statistics show that, between 2020-21 and 2021-22, the number of people on absolute low income was virtually unchanged, and absolute poverty rates after housing costs were stable for children and working-age adults, with strong earnings growth offsetting the impact of the withdrawal of the unprecedented levels of government support, protecting those in jobs, which were provided during the pandemic.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister mentions various measures, but when it comes to international comparisons, the Government do not get to mark their own homework. Relative poverty is used because it is used internationally to measure poverty over time and across countries. The Minister may not like the way it was measured in other countries, but the UNICEF report card compares the UK’s performance in 2019-21 with its performance in 2012-14, and during that time, on those measures, child poverty in the UK clearly increased by 20%. During the same period, in Poland it fell by 38%, in Slovenia by 31% and in Canada by 23%. Does the Minister not accept that something is going badly wrong here?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I come back to the point that it is important to have statistics that are grounded. The noble Baroness will know that, over many years, we have used our own statistics for poverty, which are cross-government. The Government prefer to look at absolute poverty, as the noble Baroness knows, rather than relative poverty, as the latter can provide counterintuitive results. The absolute poverty line is fixed in real terms, so it will only ever worsen if people are getting poorer and will only ever improve if people are getting richer.

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, I know that my noble friend, who is an excellent Minister, is very concerned about this issue. I apologise for questioning him further, but it remains a struggle for unpaid carers of working age, who perhaps have children as well, to stay in or find work. What more can the Government do to support this important group?

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

The Government certainly recognise and value the vital contribution made by carers every day in providing significant care and continuity of support to family and friends, including children, pensioners and those with disabilities. We know that most carers of working age want to retain a foothold in the labour market, not just for their financial well-being but to enhance their own lives and the lives of those for whom they care. Perhaps I can reassure my noble friend that the Government continue to provide financial support to unpaid carers through the carer’s allowance, the carer element of universal credit and other well-known benefits.

[Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister has said several times that the best way to help children in poverty is for their families to be in work. According to the Child Poverty Action Group, however, 71% of the children it classifies as poor live in working families. Why does he think that such a high percentage of children in poverty live in working families?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

We certainly know that it is prevalent, but I have already laid out the measures we have taken. There has obviously been quite a debate this afternoon about the statistics. The Government published The Best Start for Life: A Vision for the 1,001 Critical Days in March 2021. I reassure the noble Baroness that we recognise that the early start for children is incredibly important. There is a range of initiatives to help with that issue, which of course is linked to poverty.

[Lord Bird (CB)]

Are the Government aware that most of the people we are talking about—the children—inherit poverty? It crosses the generations. When will we move a lot of the effort into breaking poverty passing from one generation to another? That is where the money really needs to be spent, to bring about social transformation in every sense.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

The noble Lord is of course right, and I was very pleased to wind up his debate last week. Perhaps I can be helpful by saying that, compared with 2010, there are over 1 million fewer workless households in the UK, the number of children growing up in homes where no one works has fallen by 680,000, and 1.8 million more children are living in a home where at least one person works. However, the point he makes is incredibly important: we have to stop this intergenerational worklessness issue.

Social Security Benefits Up-rating Order 2024

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Tuesday 27th February 2024 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Social Security Benefits Up-rating Order 2024.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)]

My Lords, in my opinion, the provisions in the instrument are compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights. The Social Security Benefits Up-rating Order increases relevant state pension rates by 8.5%, in line with the growth in average earnings in the year to May-July 2023. It will also increase most other benefit rates by 6.7%, in line with the rise in the consumer prices index in the year to September 2023.

The order commits the Government to increased expenditure of £19 billion in 2024-25. It ensures that state benefits maintain their value relative to the increase in the cost of goods and services. It means that most state pensions will gain value relative to that increase. Indeed, the proposed increase to state pensions would be the second highest on record—second only to the increase last April.

This will meet the Government’s commitment to the triple lock, benefiting pensioners who are already in receipt of basic and new state pensions, and younger people who are building up future entitlements as a foundation for private saving. It will raise the level of the safety net in pension credit beyond the increase in prices, and it will maintain the purchasing power of benefits to help with additional costs arising from disability.

For those receiving support linked to participation in the labour market, the Government announced a range of employment and conditionality measures at the Autumn Statement. These measures maintain and improve work incentives. This allows us now to strike a balance in support of those who are in low-paid work, who are looking for work or who are unable to work by linking the increase in the rates of universal credit to the increase in prices.

I will now address state pensions in more detail. The Government’s commitment to the triple lock means that the basic and full rate of the new state pension are uprated by the highest of the growth in average earnings, the growth in prices or 2.5%. This will be 8.5% for 2024-25, in line with the conventional average earnings growth measure. As a result, from April 2024, the basic state pension will increase from £156.20 to £169.50 a week, and the full rate of the new state pension will increase from £203.85 to £221.20 a week. All additional elements of the state pension will rise by 6.7%.

The Government are committed to supporting pensioners on the lowest incomes. The order therefore also increases the safety net provided by the pension credit standard minimum guarantee by 8.5% from April 2024. For single pensioners, this means it will increase from £201.05 to £218.15 a week, and for couples it will increase from £306.85 to £332.95 a week.

I turn now to universal credit, jobseeker’s allowance and employment and support allowance. The Social Security Administration Act 1992 gives the Secretary of State discretion on whether to increase the rates of benefits such as these, which are linked to participation in the labour market. Given the employment and conditionality measures I mentioned earlier, he has decided to strike a balance in support by also increasing the rates of these benefits by 6.7%, in line with the increase in the consumer prices index.

As a further measure to reinforce work incentives, the monthly amounts of universal credit work allowances will also go up by 6.7% from April 2024. They will increase from £379 to £404 a month for those also receiving support for housing costs, and from £631 to £673 a month for those not receiving support for housing costs. Noble Lords are aware that these are the amounts a household can earn before their universal credit payment is affected if they have children or if they have limited capability for work. The 6.7% increase will also apply to statutory payments, such as statutory maternity pay, statutory paternity pay and statutory sick pay.

I turn finally to benefits for those with additional disability needs and those who provide unpaid care for them. The rates of personal independence payment, disability living allowance and attendance allowance will increase by 6.7% from April 2024, in line with the increase in the cost of goods and services. As we have debated previously in other contexts, the Government recognise the vital role played by unpaid carers. This order also increases the rate of carer’s allowance by 6.7%, from £76.75 to £81.90. Unpaid carers may also access support through universal credit, pension credit and housing benefit. All these include additional amounts for carers, which will also increase by 6.7%. For a single person, the carer element in universal credit will increase from £185.86 to £198.31 a month. The additional amount for carers in pension credit and the carer premium in the other income-related benefits will increase from £42.75 to £45.60 a week.

In conclusion, the draft Social Security Benefits Up-rating Order 2024 implements the Government’s commitment to the triple lock. It provides for a real-terms increase in the value of the safety net in pension credit, it maintains the purchasing power of benefits for additional disability needs and for people providing unpaid care to people with those needs, and it strikes a balance in universal credit by maintaining both work incentives and the purchasing power of benefit income. I commend this instrument to the Committee.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

My Lords, I of course welcome the inflation-proofing of benefits and the temporary lifting of the local housing allowance freeze in April, but—I fear this speech is a series of “but”s—I find it, frankly, insulting to those affected. I should say that the Minister is not included in this but, from the Prime Minister down, the uprating is constantly lauded by Ministers as a record amount, an additional support, as if it represents a great act of generosity which somehow justifies the lack of action on a number of other fronts. The inflation-proofing of benefits should be the default position, avoiding the months of speculation, fuelled by government sources, that have caused considerable uncertainty and anxiety for benefit recipients in and out of work.

Moreover, there is a number of reasons why the increase in line with inflation is far from generous. The Resolution Foundation points out that the uprating will do no more than restore benefits to their real value on the eve of the pandemic. While there were flaws in the cost of living payments, which we discussed last year, their loss now means that many households on universal credit will be worse off in cash terms. The foundation estimates that the typical household in the poorest quarter of the working-age population could face an income fall of 2% next year. The following year, on current assumptions, private renters will face a further freeze in the local housing allowance, which, according to Citizens Advice, is an important factor in the increase in the number facing a negative budget—that is, where income does not cover essential spending.

There is also the prospect that the uprating could coincide with the abolition of the household support fund, which has acted as both a lifeline and a sticking plaster for the holes in the social security safety net. I know that the Minister can say nothing more than that this is kept under review, but local authorities, charities and potential beneficiaries need a bit of certainty, rather than to wait for the Budget, which is only a month before the outcome of this review takes effect. I really do not understand how he can tell me in a Written Answer that the Government do not have robust data on the number of English local authorities that have closed their local welfare assistance schemes which, in his answer to my earlier Oral Question, he prayed in aid, should the household support fund be scrapped. Surely, such data should inform any review of the future of the fund. As it is, we know from End Furniture Poverty that at least 37 authorities have closed their scheme.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing this order and all noble Lords who have spoken. As he has explained, the Social Security Benefits Up-rating Order will increase most working-age benefits in line with CPI. We too welcome this instrument, because of course we want to see social security keep pace with prices, particularly at a time of spiking inflation and economic instability. That used to be the norm among both Labour and Conservative Governments, of course, but the past decade has seen a marked change.

There were of course the years of shame between 2013 and 2020, when most working-age benefits and tax credits were either frozen or uprated by small amounts, such as just 1%. Although today we are back to uprating mostly by CPI and occasionally by earnings, as my noble friend Lady Lister said, once again that uprating has been preceded by a period of speculation, which is deeply unhelpful. I can assume only that this is driven from somewhere inside the Government, because it happens too regularly. The speculation suggests that maybe this year the uprating will not be by the full amount or maybe will not happen at all.

As my noble friend mentioned, that speculation causes real stress and worry for people who depend on benefits and tax credits to survive. I begin to wonder: is it a strategy to allow Ministers the option of either freezing benefits or not uprating them fully so that, if they then finally do the right thing, people are supposed to be suitably grateful? As my noble friend Lady Lister pointed out, it is good that benefits are being uprated, but it is not an act of unusual generosity; it is simply a decision not to cut the value of benefits during a cost of living crisis.

This instrument, as we have heard, also increases the state pension by earnings in line with the triple lock. I accept the distinction that my noble friend Lord Davies helpfully made. The rates of basic and new state pensions will rise by 8.5%, as will the standard minimum guarantee in pension credit and the higher rate of widows’ and widowers’ pensions in industrial death benefit. However, this does not apply to a number of the others. I will be interested in the Minister’s response to that. In particular, can he explain the position on the deferred state pension? If someone chooses to defer their state pension and the pattern is that the deferred amount is uprated by CPI rather than the triple lock, are they made aware of that? When people make a decision about deferral, do they understand the consequences?

I had some other questions on pensions and pensioners but I was entirely thrown by the decision to separate these two instruments this year. Most years, we do them together in a single block, so I wrote a wonderful speech waxing lyrical and weaving in pensioners and old age, but now here I am. I shall come back, if the Minister will indulge me, to a couple of more general questions on pensioners when we come to debate the next instrument.

The context for this year’s uprating, as my noble friend Lady Lister expounded in some detail—aided ably by the noble Baroness, Lady Janke—is absolutely brutal. I will not repeat the extensive critique that my noble friend made or her unpacking of the economic climate in which so many families are living, but it is brutal. The basic fact is that there are now more than 4 million children living in poverty. There are 400,000 more children living in poverty now than when Labour left office in 2010.

One of the things that bothers me about this is that, whenever somebody raises this, the Minister—I know it is in his brief—will at some point in the response use the line that the Government believe that work is the best route out of poverty. Yet, clearly, the facts speak for themselves: more than two-thirds of children who live in poverty have parents in work. Something in that picture does not work. It is something that all of us in politics must address.

We in Labour have been looking at what we would do. We have a plan to give people a better life, so that they are able to make ends meet and have a good start for their children. We are looking at making sure that there is a breakfast club in every primary school and at giving people access to cheaper energy and an insulated home. We will reform universal credit, jobcentres and employment support so that people can get a better job with better pay. We will also have a child poverty strategy. Can the Minister tell the Committee in his response what the Government’s strategy is? What is their plan to do that? Other than simply declaring that work is the best route out of poverty, what is the Government’s plan to deal with the challenge of child poverty today? I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all those who have spoken in this short debate. Before I attend to the number of questions asked and subjects raised, I would like to say at the outset—I normally do this but, today, I give special feeling and meaning to it—that this Government really do fully recognise the challenges facing people across the country due to the higher cost of living.

Although inflation is trending in the right direction, with the Bank of England now forecasting a fall to a target rate of around 2% in three months’ time, I acknowledge that pressures on household budgets very much persist. I saw this for myself in a recent visit to the Earlsfield Foodbank. The Government are not complacent about such matters; I hope noble Lords will recognise that the Government have taken action on a number of fronts to address these concerns, which were raised by a number of Peers—four, to be precise—this afternoon. I may not be able to answer all the questions but I will do my very best.

Let me start at the outset—I do not think I have done this before—by saying that, although I acknowledge the remarks made by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, I am generally disappointed that every single item was a negative. I am disappointed that nothing she said seemed to support what we have done in these regulations or what we are trying to do. We really are trying. There was a long litany of faults coming from the Government: that the uprating was not enough; on the loss of the cost of living payments; on the freeze in the LHA, which is all for the future as we do not like where we stand on that yet; on the household support fund; and on the benefits cap review, including why it was not being done.

The noble Baroness is right to ask questions but I say gently that there is no mention of the genuine headwinds that all Governments have been facing. This Government have not been alone in the experiences of the pandemic and coming out of it, as well as of the war in Ukraine. There was no indication of these whatever. It is a bit disappointing. I know that the noble Baroness will understand why I have said these things but I thought it would be worth mentioning them.

[Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab)]

I am sorry to interrupt but I started by saying that I welcomed the inflation-proofing. That is a positive. I then warned him by saying, “All the ‘buts’ are coming, I am afraid”, but it was in the context of welcoming.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

I appreciate that from the noble Baroness. We have undertaken a number of debates together; I hope that she did not mind me mentioning it.

However, questions are questions; I will start by attempting to answer one of them. After each uprating, household income will go down by 2% because of the ending of the cost of living payments. At the moment, the Government have no plans to extend the cost of living payments past the 2023-24 round of payments. Responding swiftly and decisively to the cost of living pressures has been a key priority for the Government. Over the past two years, the Government have demonstrated their commitment to supporting the most vulnerable by providing one of the largest support packages in Europe. Taken together, support to households to help with the high cost of living is worth £104 billion over the period 2022-23 to 2024-25.

As was mentioned earlier, reducing inflation and growing the economy are the most effective ways to build a more prosperous future for all. This Government are committed to halving the rate of inflation; they have pretty well achieved that. However, to be helpful to the noble Baroness, an evaluation of the cost of living payments is under way. This seeks to understand their effectiveness as a means of support for low-income and vulnerable households. This will be made public when it is ready.

The noble Baroness mentioned the household support fund. She probably second-guessed my answer, which is that this is kept under review in the usual way. It has been used to support millions of households in need with the cost of essentials. For example, 26 million awards were made to households in need between 1 October 2021 and 31 March 2023. More than £2 billion in funding has been provided to local authorities via the household support fund since it began—that is, October 2021. More than 10 million awards were made between 1 October 2022 and 31 March 2023.

The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, asked why we are not going to increase the benefit cap. She cited the fact that the Secretary of State has an obligation to review at least once every five years. We believe that there has to be a balance. The benefit cap provides a balanced work incentive and fairness for hard-working taxpaying households, while providing a safety net of support for the most vulnerable. She will know that the Government increased the level significantly from April 2023 following the review in November 2022. The proportion of all working-age households capped remains low, at 1.3%, and these capped households will still be able to receive benefits up to the value of gross earnings of around £26,500, or £31,300 in London. For single households, this is around £15,800, or £19,000 in London.

The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, asked about benefits levels and how to measure them. There is no objective way of deciding what an adequate level of benefit should be as every person has different requirements depending on their circumstances. However, we will spend £276 billion through the welfare system in Great Britain this financial year, including around £124 billion on people of working age and their children. Over the past two years, the Government have demonstrated their commitment to supporting the most vulnerable by providing one of the largest support packages in Europe, which I mentioned earlier.

The national living wage, which I also want to mention, is set to increase this April by 9.8% to £11.44, on top of the increase in April 2023 of 9.7%. This represents an increase of over £1,800 in the annual earnings of a full-time worker on the national living wage, and it is expected to benefit over 2.7 million low- paid workers.

Guaranteed Minimum Pensions Increase Order 2024

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Tuesday 27th February 2024 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Guaranteed Minimum Pensions Increase Order 2024.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)]

My Lords, this order was laid before the House on 15 January. It is a routine and quite technical annual order and is usually debated alongside the Social Security Benefits Up-rating Order 2024, which we have just finished discussing. Unusually, this year, we are running the orders one after the other, as determined by the Whips’ Office. I hope the Committee will agree that this order is not considered too controversial.

The order sets out the annual amount by which the guaranteed minimum pension—the so-called GMP, which is part of an individual’s contracted-out occupational pension earned between April 1988 and April 1997—must be increased. This year, occupational pension schemes that provide GMPs are required to increase GMPs earned during that period which are in payment by 3%.

I start by giving a bit of background on GMPs. They were created to help employees save income for their retirement but in an affordable way. The state pension used to be made up of two parts: the flat-rate basic state pension and the earnings-related additional state pension. The flat-rate basic state pension was funded through national insurance and paid at the full rate to those with sufficient qualifying years of national insurance contributions, or pro rata for those with a partial record.

The second part of the state pension, the additional state pension, was linked to a person’s earnings. The higher earnings-related national insurance contributions applied to both the employee and the employer and built entitlement to an additional state pension, based on the employee’s earnings. The intention was to ensure that as many people as possible were able to save towards an earnings-related work-based pension that would supplement their basic state pension in retirement.

The additional state pension was introduced in 1978. At the time, many employers were already offering their employees a workplace occupational pension through their own scheme. Therefore, having both an earnings-related additional state pension and a company occupational pension was seen as dual provision. It was overly complicated and potentially unaffordable for employers and employees.

The then Government therefore decided to deal with this through the system of contracting out and the associated provision of guaranteed minimum pensions. Between April 1978 and April 1997, employers sponsoring salary-related schemes could contract their employees out of the additional state pension through membership of the company pension scheme, as long as that pension scheme paid its members a guaranteed minimum pension as part of their occupational pension from the scheme.

The idea was that, rather than paying additional national insurance to the state, people would instead build up a similar amount of occupational pension through their workplace pension schemes. This was the guaranteed minimum pension. It was broadly equivalent to the additional state pension foregone, and it set a level below which the occupational pension could not fall. In return, both the scheme members and the sponsoring employer of the scheme paid lower national insurance contributions. Most schemes provided pensions above this set minimum, with many providing pensions that were significantly higher. The pensions provided above the GMP have their own rules; however, the GMP provides a useful minimum benefit for members. I think that covers the relevant background to the order, which may be familiar to the Committee, and I hope this gives a sense of what was happening at the time and why the order is still important.

Moving on to the order itself, the GMPs increase order relates specifically to members who were contracted out of the additional state pension between April 1988 and April 1997. The order provides these members with a measure of inflation protection for the GMP element of an occupational pension scheme built up between 1988 and 1997.

As your Lordships may be aware, legislation states that when there has been an increase in the annual level of prices, as measured at the previous September, the order must raise the GMP element of an individual’s occupational pension that was earned between 1988 and 1997 by this percentage increase or 3%, whichever is lower. As September 2023’s consumer prices index figure was 6.7%, this means that the increase for the financial year 2024-25 will be 3%. The cap of 3% for GMPs earned between those years aims to achieve a balance between providing some measure of protection against inflation, while not increasing schemes’ costs beyond what they can generally afford.

The cap provides schemes with more certainty, allowing them better to forecast their future liabilities, which is important when they are considering their funding requirements. If there were no limit on the increases, the higher costs could put unreasonable pressure on schemes, which could put their future viability at risk. The cumulative effect of high increases every year could be significant.

A point that has been raised previously, including in the debate last year, is the suggestion that requiring schemes to index post-1988 GMPs was introduced only to save the taxpayer money, as the indexation on earlier accruals was achieved through an uplift in the state pension. A central reason behind why the Government made this decision is that contracting out has always been about the state and the private sector working together, and that having a set amount of indexation paid for by the scheme, with additional protection provided by the state, is a sensible balance.

Let me explain how that system works. When inflation is above 3%, as it currently is, most people with GMPs earned between those years—1988 and 1997—who reached state pension age before 2016 will receive the same inflation protection as if they had not been contracted out. This means that most people who reached state pension age before April 2016 will receive a top-up of 3.7% this year through the additional state pension. In other words, they will receive 3% from their occupational pension scheme and the remainder as a top-up through the additional state pension.

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I begin by thanking the three Peers who have spoken in this debate which was even than the previous one. I say at the outset that I appreciate the general support for these regulations. Regarding the GMP increase order, it is always helpful to be aware from the outset that your Lordships are generally supportive of what it sets out to do. Occupational pensions schemes help provide members of their scheme who have a GMP accrued between 1988 and 1997 with, as I said earlier, a measure of protection against inflation eroding the value of their pension.

At the outset, I will also give a very brief response to what was not really a question from the noble Baroness, Lady Janke, about the triple lock. We are pleased to confirm that the triple lock remains in place. I do not think that there was a question there, but I acknowledge that point.

There were a number of questions. I shall start off by answering in no particular order some questions raised by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton. As to the very specific question of how many people who contracted out will be worse off because of the loss of GMP indexation through the state scheme—he particularly mentioned 2016-17—people who reach state pension age after April 2016 will be entitled to the new state pension and will receive up to 3% from the scheme on their 1988-1997 GMP, which he will know. When looking at the reforms in the round, people may not lose out in aggregate terms because, in effect, indexation has ended for people reaching state pension age from 6 April 2016. This is because the transitional rules of the new state pension can be particularly advantageous for people who have been contracted out.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I just want to understand that response. It does not sound like very many. I presume what the Minister is trying to say to the Committee is that, having looked at the denominator of how many people might expect to be eligible and how much they might get, that number does not feel disproportionate. Is that what he is saying?

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Yes—that is absolutely right. Let me see whether there is any further information that I can get to the noble Baroness on this niche matter. If I am wrong, I will write, but I will certainly write anyway. I am coming towards the end of my remarks; I have only a couple more questions to answer.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, asked where she might find the latest state pension statistics. As she may know, they are available on Stat-Xplore, but only up to May 2023. The release of updated statistics due to be published on Tuesday 13 February 2024 was suspended, as the noble Baroness alluded to in her remarks. This delay results from issues with the internal processing of state pension data after it was sent for analysis from the “Get your State Pension” system and has an impact only on statistics that are not yet published. State pension statistics previously published on Stat-Xplore in November 2023 remain reliable. Work is under way to remediate these issues, and we will publish the suspended state pension statistics as soon as we are able.

The noble Baroness also asked about the status of the auto-enrolment extension Act’s powers and the consultation. The Government remain committed to expanding the benefits of AE to younger people and helping all workers to save more for their retirement. This is why we supported the Pensions (Extension of Automatic Enrolment) Act 2023, to which the noble Baroness alluded. To cut to the quick, we intend to conduct a consultation on the detailed implementation of these measures at the right time and in the right way. That is probably not in line with what my colleague in the other place said—“in due course”—but our commitment stands to implement in the mid-2020s.

With those remarks, I will, as ever, check in Hansard that I have attempted to answer all the questions asked. The Committee should be reassured that, if I have not done so, I will write. In the meantime, I thank all three Peers for their interest.

Motion agreed.

Poverty Reduction

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Thursday 22nd February 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)]

My Lords, I am very pleased to close this important debate. It has allowed us to discuss many issues and challenges relating to poverty, with a focus on cross-government efforts to find a solution.

I will start by thanking all noble Lords for their valuable contributions today—particularly the noble Lord, Lord Bird, who has tirelessly championed vulnerable and homeless people over many years, for initiating this debate. I will say a little more because noble Lords should be in no doubt that I was very moved by his impassioned speech. He spoke about giving the poor more, mentioning it many times, and how this was not necessarily the way forward. He also spoke with great conviction about PECC—prevention, emergency, coping and cure. I listened carefully to his remarks. I am afraid that I may use the word “initiative” in some of my remarks, and I await the spears that will be thrown at me without, I have to say, any particular shield.

I also pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, for her long service in local government. It is appropriate to acknowledge the time she spent in local government. She now gives us the benefit of her knowledge and skills in this House, and we are all the better for that.

I have listened with great interest to many ideas promulgated today, particularly about a co-ordinated approach to tackling poverty. I would like to reassure noble Lords, in particular the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, that we indeed have a co-ordinated approach. I will set out our stall in terms of what the Government have been doing. The noble Baroness, Lady Burt, is right; we need to work together. That is extremely important.

I also acknowledge the outstanding maiden speech from the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Hereford. I am glad, as has been said by others, that he has survived so far, given the past experiences—some rather gruesome—of his predecessors. It is especially helpful and important to have a representative from his Benches for rural issues, which is not to say that there are not other right reverend Prelates who cover rural issues. He has clearly made it his business to become steeped in many local issues in Hereford, and that bodes well, because I can tell that his style is to focus on detail, with cogent argument. The House is all the better for his presence here, and I await his further contributions—with some trepidation, if I happen to be at the Dispatch Box.

I fully recognise that poverty is a hugely complex subject and that many people who experience it often face a range of barriers that can make it difficult for them to move on with their lives. As the noble Lord, Lord Bird, acknowledged, it is incredibly difficult. I also recognise that tackling these complex underlying challenges cannot be done in isolation. This Government have a range of programmes that work across departmental boundaries to help people to address the challenges they face, so that they can take their first steps towards employment and better outcomes for themselves and their families.

The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, is right that it is also about dignity and promoting and upholding the dignity of those who are suffering in poverty and destitution, without patronisation, if I can put it in that way.

I want at this point to acknowledge the valedictory speech of my friend, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham. We all wish him well for his retirement, and I personally thank him for his commitment and for raising many important issues during his time in the House. I have to say that I have appreciated his frankness in speaking truth to power—as the noble Baroness, Lady Armstrong, said, not about him but in other respects—and for his friendship. As many Peers have mentioned, the right reverend Prelate has consistently raised important matters relating to poverty, and this debate is certainly no different. I will be addressing many of the points he has raised, including raising the national living wage, reappraising of the value of unpaid work, the two-child limit, which is an old favourite that I shall be covering, the essentials guarantee, too much silo thinking and the need for a shift in national thinking, which was a big comment that he made. We will miss him and, if I may say so, he leaves certain important matters, including questions, ringing in my ears, and I will not forget that.

I shall set out some specific examples in a moment, but I want to start by reminding noble Lords of the significant support provided by my department to those on the lowest incomes. Before I get into detail on that, coming back to some questions that have been raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, in terms of a poverty strategy, while there is no written strategy, we have been clear in our approach, which I will outline throughout my speech, and I hope that she will acknowledge this, focusing on both our welfare offer and our efforts to get people into sustainable employment and progress. There is more than that. She will expect these lines to be “trotted out”, as she put it, but I hope she does not think that way too much.

The noble Baroness asked an important question about poverty measurement. She might like to know that my department is developing so-called below average resources—BAR—statistics to provide a new, additional measure of poverty based on the approach proposed by the Social Metrics Commission, led by my noble friend Lady Stroud. The new BAR approach seeks to provide a more expansive view of available resources, both savings and inescapable costs, than the income measurement adopted under the DWP’s households below average income statistics. In developing this additional poverty measure, the DWP is working closely with stakeholders, including the SMC, other government departments and subject matter experts on this important point.

A strong welfare system is at the heart of ensuring support for those who need it, and our commitment to maintaining a strong safety net is reflected in the £276 billion that we expect to spend through the welfare system in Great Britain this financial year. Having uprated in line with inflation this financial year, we have announced a further increase of 6.7% in working age benefits for 2024-25, subject to parliamentary approval. The basic and new state pensions will be uprated by 8.5%, in line with earnings, as part of the ongoing triple lock.

We are also providing cost of living support worth £104 billion over the period 2022-23 to 2024-25. This is a cross-cutting package of support built on what we learned during the Covid-19 pandemic about supporting those most in need during challenging times. In particular, my department has worked closely with HMRC, HM Treasury and the devolved Administrations to deliver cost of living payments of up to £900 to more than 8 million households across the UK on eligible, means-tested benefits this financial year. I am pleased to say that DWP and HMRC delivered the third means-tested cost of living payment of £299 to most eligible households between 6 February and 22 February 2024.

We have not been delivering this support alone. My department has worked closely with local government—to be helpful to the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, and perhaps also to the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox—to deliver the household support fund. One hundred and fifty-three local authorities across England have used this funding to provide a variety of support to households to help with their essential costs. I am aware that there remains considerable interest across both Houses in the future of this fund. As with any issue, the Government continue to keep these matters under review in the usual way. As the House knows only too well, the current scheme continues to run until the end of March.

From April, we are increasing the national living wage for people aged 21 and over by 9.8% to £11.44, representing an increase of more than £1,800 to the gross annual earnings of a full-time worker on the national living wage. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham asked about low pay, particularly with regard to insecure work. I have already mentioned the national living wage, but this record cash increase of £1.20 per hour means we will hit the target for the national living wage to equal two-thirds of median earnings for those aged 21 and over in 2024. This will bring an end to the low hourly rate for this particular cohort. The new in-work progression offer is now live across all jobcentres in Great Britain and we estimate that 1.2 million low-paid claimants are eligible for work coach support to help them to increase their earnings. Progression leads are working with key partners, including local government employers and skills providers, to identify and develop local progression opportunities.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Hereford raised the importance of housing. As he will know, the Government are supporting people in paying their rent and will invest £1.2 billion on increasing the local housing allowance rate to the 30th percentile of local market rents. That will ensure that 1.6 million private renters in receipt of housing benefit or universal credit gain on average around £800 per year in additional help towards their rental costs in 2024-25. I believe that is a significant investment, worth about £7 billion over five years.

I said earlier that we do not work in isolation, and many of the complex issues faced by vulnerable people cannot be tackled through the welfare system alone. My department continues to work in partnership with other parts of central and local government to deliver the support that people need. Alongside the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities, we are committed to working with local authorities to tackle homelessness and end rough sleeping for good—which we must do, to reassure the noble Lord, Lord Bird, who is so steeped in this subject. I am proud of the progress that has been made in recent years and the continued work to meet all the commitments outlined in the cross-government rough sleeping strategy but, as I will be told by the noble Lord, there is much more to do, and I can see it myself when walking through the streets.

I turn to the important theme that was raised today of families and children. The Department for Work and Pensions, the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities and the Department for Education are working together to deliver the Supporting Families programme. Between April 2015 and December 2023, the programme funded local authorities to help more than 612,000 families make sustained improvements in relation to the often complex problems that led to them joining the programme in the first place. A network of 300 specialised work coaches, the Supporting Families employment advisers, support the programme by providing employment support for families that are experiencing multiple disadvantages.

The departments also work together to deliver a range of support to help ensure that children thrive, which is another key theme that has come up today. The pupil premium will ensure that targeted funding continues to help schools to support disadvantaged five to 16 year-old pupils and to close attainment caps.

The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, raised the importance of child poverty in an important part of her speech. I hope I can reassure her that we are taking this seriously and working across government on a range of matters to reduce child poverty. She shakes her head, so I clearly have more work to do.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham also raised the importance of child poverty and talked about the two-child policy. He asked again why the Government do not do the right thing and abolish it. We believe that families on benefits should face the same financial choices when deciding to grow their family as those supporting themselves solely through work. He will know only too well, and he has heard these lines from me before, that on 9 July the Supreme Court handed down the judicial review judgment on the two-child policy. The court found the policy lawful and not in breach of the European Convention on Human Rights. However, no doubt we will continue to debate this matter.

In addition, there is collaboration between the Department of Health and Social Care and the Department for Education to provide support to families through Healthy Start, the nursery milk scheme and the school fruit and vegetables scheme, which together help more than 3 million children. To reassure the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, the Government have extended the free school meals eligibility several times, as she will probably know, and to more groups of children than any other Government over the past half a century.

The issue of child poverty was raised also by the noble Baroness, Lady Armstrong, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham, focusing on poverty in the north-east and with particular reference to the North East Child Poverty Commission, and I listened carefully to what she said. There are some figures that I could bring out, but the most recent data shows that the proportion of children in the north-east in absolute poverty after housing costs fell by seven percentage points in the three years to 2021-22, compared with the three years up to 2009-10. Having said all that, we understand that many families are still struggling—I am the first to say that—and this is work in progress. That is why some help has been given through the comprehensive cost of living support.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Burt and Lady Armstrong, addressed the pupil premium. I emphasise, in response to the comments from the noble Baroness, Lady Burt, that the funding is on top of the £1 billion of recovery premium funding provided in the 2022-23 and 2023-24 academic years, following over £300 million delivered in 2021-22.

On our approach to poverty, while it is absolutely right that we maintain a strong welfare safety net for those in need—I emphasise that—particularly during challenging economic times, we have always believed that, for those who can, the best way to help people to improve their financial circumstances is through work. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Bird, and I alluded to this earlier, mentioned prevention and cure. That is an answer, but not the only answer. We believe that prevention and cure are possible through getting people into work and I hope he will agree with that, although, as I say, it may not provide all the answers.

Our approach is based on the clear evidence around the important role that work, especially full-time work, can play in lifting people out of poverty. This is why, with over 900,000 vacancies across the UK, our focus is firmly on helping people take their first steps into work and to progress towards financial independence. We want everyone who can to be able to find a job and to progress and thrive in work, whoever they are and wherever they live. To ensure that support meets the needs of people across the country, my department offers a national programme of welfare and employment support, delivered through the Jobcentre Plus network across Great Britain.

My department also has local teams that specialise in working in partnership with local government and other local stakeholders, including businesses and communities—to be helpful to the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox—to understand each area’s needs. This place-based approach is crucial in helping to address the disparities that exist between regions and underlines our commitment to spreading opportunity and unleashing potential across the UK.

Of course, we recognise the points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, on the link between health and work. That includes mental health conditions, which she particularly focused on. The joint DWP/DHSC Work and Health Unit was set up in 2015 in recognition of the significant link between work and health and to reflect the shared agenda of boosting employment opportunities for disabled people and people with health conditions.

I want to cover some of the questions raised; I hope I can cover them in the remaining time. Notably, these questions were from the noble Lords, Lord Bird and Lord Loomba, and the noble Baroness, Lady Lister. This goes back to strategy. I think the noble Lord, Lord Bird, was probably asking the Government for a ministry of poverty, not a Ministry of Justice. I may be wrong in interpreting what he was trying to say. I hope I have shown in my speech that we saw during the pandemic the Department for Work and Pensions consistently working well across government to support the most vulnerable households.

There is a lot of work going on across government and I believe that there is joined-up thinking. In addition to Ministers meeting counterparts in other departments, officials work regularly with colleagues across government to better understand the multidimensional nature of poverty and to craft effective policy. This includes a cross-government senior officials’ group on poverty, as well as bilateral meetings and meetings with external anti-poverty stakeholders.

The noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, asked about the five-week wait. It is not possible to award a universal credit payment as soon as a claim is made, as the assessment period must run its course before the award of UC can be calculated. This process ensures that claimants are paid their correct entitlement, based on verified information and actual earnings, and prevents significant overpayments from occurring.

The noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, made an important point about digital exclusion particularly affecting lower-income households. I reassure her that we are aware of this. She is right and she is a great champion in this area. The costs of being connected online can be a barrier for low-income households. The DWP has worked with DCMS and Ofcom to influence broadband providers to support extending eligibility for new broadband social tariffs to low-income households. As a result, some broadband providers have made their new social tariffs available to all UC claimants and claimants of other means-tested benefits. The DWP has worked with Ofcom to promote awareness of these social tariffs to DWP stakeholders and work coaches throughout our Jobcentre Plus network, who can then signpost claimants to apply for broadband social tariffs.

The noble Baroness also raised the issue of chambers of commerce, and I listened carefully to what she said. I think my speech set out, as I said earlier, some emphasis on the close cross-government working with local authorities. I agree that it is vital that local authorities also work collectively to build local leadership, and I will certainly take her remarks back.

The noble Lord, Lord Loomba, and the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, spoke about funding for local government. I reassure them that the Government have announced additional measures for local authorities in England, worth £600 million—the noble Baroness will know that.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Hereford and the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, spoke about mental health. I alluded to that earlier, but we recognise the challenges of those in poverty, which is why we are investing an additional £2.3 billion a year in mental health services.

I should draw my remarks to a close. There are a couple of questions, particularly from the noble Lord, Lord Desai, who made interesting points about a universal basic income. I will write to the noble Lord on his interesting idea, which is not new to me. I will expand upon it and perhaps give him a full answer.

I reassure the House that Ministers continue to work across and beyond departmental boundaries to ensure that we take a co-ordinated approach to supporting vulnerable and low-income households. We look forward to working with all noble Lords across the House to continue to support those in need. This is a very important subject, and I again thank the noble Lord, Lord Bird, for once again raising it. It certainly is important for the Government.

Pneumoconiosis etc. (Workers’ Compensation) (Specified Diseases and Prescribed Occupations) (Amendment) Regulations 2024

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Monday 19th February 2024 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Pneumoconiosis etc. (Workers’ Compensation) (Specified Diseases and Prescribed Occupations) (Amendment) Regulations 2024.

Motion agreed.

Occupational Pension Schemes (Collective Money Purchase Schemes) (Amendment) Regulations 2023

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Monday 19th February 2024 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 14 December 2023 be approved. Considered in Grand Committee on 13 February.

Motion agreed.

Pneumoconiosis etc. (Workers’ Compensation) (Payment of Claims) (Amendment) Regulations 2024

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Monday 19th February 2024 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Pneumoconiosis etc. (Workers’ Compensation) (Payment of Claims) (Amendment) Regulations 2024.

Motion agreed.

Mesothelioma Lump Sum Payments (Conditions and Amounts) (Amendment) Regulations 2024

Viscount Younger of Leckie Excerpts

Monday 19th February 2024 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Viscount Younger of Leckie]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Mesothelioma Lump Sum Payments (Conditions and Amounts) (Amendment) Regulations 2024.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)]

My Lords, I will also speak to the draft Pneumoconiosis etc. (Workers’ Compensation) (Payment of Claims) (Amendment) Regulations 2024 and the draft Pneumoconiosis etc. (Workers’ Compensation) (Specified Diseases and Prescribed Occupations) (Amendment) Regulations 2024.

The schemes we are debating today provide vital support for sufferers of dust-related diseases often caused by occupational exposure to asbestos and other harmful dusts. This includes diseases such as pneumoconiosis and mesothelioma. Although both schemes aim to provide compensation to sufferers within their lifetime, each scheme also allows for claims by dependants if, sadly, the person suffering from the disease passes away before they are able to claim. This is in recognition of the suffering these diseases can bring to whole families.

The changes we are debating today will apply equally to those in England, Wales and Scotland. The Government recognise that addressing Great Britain’s asbestos legacy, particularly in public buildings, remains a key issue. We also understand the crucial role that research and early detection can play in the fight against cancer and other diseases covered by these schemes. We continue to make progress in this space, with the rollout of the NHS targeted lung cancer screening programme, and around £122 million invested in cancer research in 2022-23 through the National Institute for Health and Care Research. However, while individuals continue to be diagnosed with these terrible diseases, the lump sum schemes remain a vital source of financial support for sufferers and their families.

I will now take a moment to provide some additional background to the schemes. The Pneumoconiosis etc. (Workers’ Compensation) Act 1979, which—noble Lords will be relieved to hear—for simplicity I shall refer to as the 1979 Act scheme, provides a single lump sum compensation payment to eligible individuals who suffer from one of the diseases covered by the scheme. This includes diffuse mesothelioma, pneumoconiosis and three other dust-related respiratory diseases. It was designed to compensate people who were unable to claim damages from former employers that had gone out of business and who had not brought any civil action against another party for damages. To be entitled to a lump sum award, claimants must have an industrial injuries disablement benefit award for a disease covered by the 1979 Act scheme.

The 2008 mesothelioma lump sum payments scheme, which I will refer to as the 2008 Act scheme, was introduced to provide compensation to people who contracted diffuse mesothelioma but were unable to claim compensation through the 1979 Act scheme. This may have been because they were a self-employed worker or their exposure to asbestos was not due to their work. The 2008 Act scheme provides support quickly to people with diffuse mesothelioma, at their time of greatest need.

This Government recognise the suffering that diseases such as mesothelioma and pneumoconiosis cause to sufferers and their families. I know that many noble Lords will be aware of friends and close colleagues from your Lordships’ House who have lost their lives as a result of these dreadful diseases. I have known two people who have succumbed. We must remember the great impact these illnesses have on people and their families.

Each year, the schemes continue to provide vital financial support to sufferers and their families. Between April 2022 and March 2023, the latest financial year for which data is available, 2,860 awards were made across both schemes, with expenditure totalling £42.3 million. However, between now and 2028-29, expenditure on the schemes is forecast to fall by 8% in real terms. In part, this may reflect historical changes in the domestic workforce but also improved health and safety provision more widely. This may provide some hope that fewer families will suffer the impacts of these terrible diseases going forward.

Two of the instruments we are debating today seek to increase the value of one-off, lump-sum payments made under the 2008 Act scheme and 1979 Act scheme respectively, this time by 6.7%. These new rates will apply to those who first become entitled to a payment from 1 April 2024. As many noble Lords will be aware, these two schemes are not included in the main social security benefits uprating procedure. However, a 6.7% increase is in line with the September 2023 consumer prices index and mirrors the proposed increases to industrial injuries disablement benefit payments and other disability benefits. As I outlined this time last year, there is no statutory requirement to review the level of these payments annually. However, the department has decided to uprate payments under both lump-sum schemes together, in line with inflation, since 2010. I reassure noble Lords that this year will be no different, which reflects the continued importance of the support provided by these schemes.

This year, in addition to the uprating instruments, I ask that the Committee considers a third draft instrument. Unlike uprating, this instrument will not form part of an annual process. Instead, it seeks to extend the eligibility criteria under the 1979 Act scheme. This instrument will simply realign the diseases which may bring entitlement to a payment under that scheme with those that may bring entitlement to IIDB, ensuring that the original policy intent of the 1979 Act is reflected in the legislation. In doing so, it will widen the 1979 Act scheme entitlement to customers suffering from two additional dust-related conditions; first, unilateral or one-sided diffuse pleural thickening and, secondly, asbestos-related primary carcinoma of the lung where there is no accompanying asbestosis.

As many noble Lords are aware, the department is advised by the Industrial Injuries Advisory Council—an independent scientific body, called IIAC—on changes to the list of prescribed diseases for which IIDB can be paid. At the point that they were added to the 1979 Act legislation, the specified diseases exactly mirrored diseases listed in the relevant IIDB legislation. Over time, IIAC has recommended several changes to IIDB prescribed diseases that are also specified in the 1979 Act, which have been accepted by the department.

The unintended impact of accepting these recommendations was that people who suffer from one-sided diffuse pleural thickening and primary carcinoma of the lung with occupational exposure to asbestos, but no accompanying asbestosis, are now potentially eligible for IIDB but not eligible for an award under the 1979 Act scheme. This divergence was first identified in September 2023, when officials were asked to provide clarification on entitlement for an individual case. Officials have worked at pace since September to bring forward the legislation that we are debating today.

The proposed amendments seek to address this divergence by realigning diseases specified in the 1979 Act legislation with those which may bring entitlement to IIDB. If approved, this instrument will mean that the diseases specified in the 1979 Act legislation are based on an improved clinical understanding and that the original policy intent of the 1979 Act is reflected fully in legislation.

Historically, payments have been made to sufferers of these two diseases, despite the divergence identified in the legislation. This was because the department was using diseases set out in the IIDB legislation when considering entitlement to a lump-sum award under the 1979 Act scheme. Importantly, our understanding is, therefore, that customers who made claims for these two diseases historically have not missed out as a result of the change not being made sooner.

As of 16 February, the department was holding 94 claims made since September 2023 where it has not been possible to establish entitlement under the current legislation, but where the criteria would be met under the proposed legislation. If it is approved today, we will pay these customers as soon as possible.

Overall, we estimate that this change will extend legislative entitlement to a 1979 Act scheme lump-sum award to approximately 300 people a year with one-sided diffuse pleural thickening and asbestos-related primary carcinoma of the lung—a reflection of the vital role the schemes play in providing compensation to those affected by these terrible diseases. I am sure—I hope—that noble Lords here today will join me in recognising the continued importance of the compensation provided by these schemes.

Finally, as a part of my role, I am required to confirm that each of these three provisions is compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights, and I can gladly do so. I commend the proposed amendments to these schemes to the Grand Committee and ask noble Lords’ approval to implement them. I beg to move.

[Baroness Blower (Lab)]

My Lords, as general secretary of the National Union of Teachers, I was aware of a number of members who died from school-acquired mesothelioma. I declare an interest: having worked in an asbestos-contaminated school myself, I have that registered on my medical record, although I am in good health at the moment.

These lump-sum payments are meant to provide some compensation for asbestos victims who cannot get civil compensation from a former employer, but there is an inconsistency in the schemes. If a surviving partner or dependant must claim after their loved one has died, they receive a substantially lower payment. In 2019-20, a 77 year-old with mesothelioma would have received £14,334 if they claimed themselves, but if they died before claiming, which can of course happen with a cancer that is both aggressive and difficult to diagnose, their surviving partner or dependent child would have received £7,949. Mesothelioma patients typically have months left to live at the time of their diagnosis.

Many surviving partners, often women on modest wages or pensions, suffer financial hardship after the loss of their loved one. Their household income falls, but many of their outgoings remain the same. In that situation, they are further disadvantaged if they can receive only the much lower posthumous payment, so there is a clear moral case for raising that payment. Of the 3,830 payments made in 2018, only 260 were posthumous claims, according to the figures I have from the TUC. It estimates that it would cost £1.5 million to equalise payments. In its view, and indeed mine, raising the level of posthumous payments is therefore affordable.

In 2010, the Government acknowledged that there was no justification for the differential payments, stating that the inequality in payments could put pressure on victims’ families when they are most vulnerable. Does the Minister agree that it is now time to change this and equalise the payments?

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I start by thanking all noble Lords here today for their contributions to this short debate. As has been the case in previous years, it has demonstrated the profound interest in these schemes that is present in the House—indeed, in this Committee.

I should start off by saying this: it is important that we all remain mindful that these debates are about those whose lives have been impacted by these dreadful diseases. I particularly appreciate the attendance of the noble Baronesses, Lady Donaghy and Lady Finlay, who have broken off from their committee; again, it emphasises the importance of this subject.

The Government recognise that the two schemes we are debating today form a crucial part of the support that is available to people suffering from dust-related conditions and their families. It is right that we ensure that the value of these compensation schemes is retained, especially in these difficult times. In addition to ensuring that these awards are uprated for those who first become entitled from 1 April 2024, the Government are also proposing to make changes to the list of diseases that may bring entitlement to compensation under the 1979 Act scheme.

A number of questions were asked. I will attempt to answer them all; I hope that there will not be any duplication in what I say. I shall mark my own homework on that; I am sure that noble Lords will do so too.

First, the noble Baronesses, Lady Blower, Lady Donaghy and Lady Sherlock, referred to equalisation and dependant awards, asking: why do dependants get lower awards than sufferers and when will the Government equalise these award rates? It is clear that whole families can be devastated by these diseases, as I said earlier; that is why dependants can claim compensation following the passing of their loved ones. The Government remain of the view that available funding should be prioritised to those people who are currently living with the disease. This position is in line with the main purpose of these schemes: to provide financial support to people living with certain diseases, and to help them deal with the issues that illness brings. I hope that I have a figure for the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock; I will address that in a moment.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Sherlock and Lady Blower, asked further questions about disparity, including on the number of recipients of payments under the 1979 scheme who were aged 77 or over and the number aged 37 years and under. They also asked for the breakdown of payments by industry. I can tell the Committee that, in the last full financial year for which published data is available—April 2022 to March 2023—2,460 awards were paid under the 1979 scheme. Some 1,400 of the awards paid—57% of them—were for individuals aged 77 and over, while fewer than five awards paid were for individuals aged 37 and under. Unfortunately, information on the occupational and industry breakdown of recipients of the lump sum schemes is not published and is not readily available; this would require analysis of multiple datasets for the 1979 scheme and the industrial injuries disablement benefit in order to determine occupational and industrial formation. I have probably gone a bit further than the question that was asked but I hope that that is helpful.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Blower and Lady Finlay, asked further questions about equalisation. Around 90% of the payments made under both schemes are paid to sufferers of the diseases covered by the schemes. As I have said already, we are prioritising those living with the diseases.

We estimate that to equalise awards for people diagnosed with the disease and dependants in 2024-25 would require an additional £1.4 million a year from the DEL budget. No provision has been made for this in the current spending review settlement. I think the figure that the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, might like to have is the £1.25 million figure that has been raised today.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay and Lady Blower, raised important questions about asbestos in schools and public buildings. I will attempt to address these questions. It is obviously incredibly serious, and the Department for Education expects all local authorities, governing bodies and academy trusts to have robust plans in place to manage asbestos in school buildings effectively in line with their legal duties. Well-maintained and safe school buildings are a priority for the Government, and we have allocated more than £15 billion of capital funding since 2015, including £1.8 billion this financial year. This comes on top of our 10-year school rebuilding programme, which will transform buildings at more than 500 schools. Where there are serious issues with buildings that cannot be managed by responsible bodies, the Department for Education provides additional support on a case-by-case basis.

Moving onto public buildings, the Government agree that continuing to build on the evidence base around the safe management and disposal of asbestos is fundamental in ensuring that the risks posed by its past use are minimised. The Health and Safety Executive has a mature and comprehensive regulatory framework to ensure that legacy asbestos risks in Great Britain are managed that aligns with the best evidence currently available. This is reflected throughout the approaches outlined in the Control of Asbestos Regulations 2012—CAR. Correct implementation of CAR not only ensures management of risks of exposure but will eventually lead to the elimination of asbestos from the built environment without the need for any target deadline.

The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, raised supporting research into mesothelioma. Research is crucial, as I am sure the noble Baroness will tell me, in the fight against cancer. The Department of Health and Social Care invested around £122 million in cancer research in 2022-23 through the National Institute for Health and Care Research, which I think I mentioned in my opening remarks. For several years, DHSC has been working actively to stimulate an increase in the level of mesothelioma research activity from a rather low base. This includes a formal research priority-setting exercise, a National Cancer Research Institute workshop and a specific call for research proposals through the National Institute for Health and Care Research. I hope that chimes with the knowledge that the noble Baroness no doubt brings to this Committee.

In 2018, the British Lung Foundation launched the UK’s first Mesothelioma Research Network, the MRN, with the involvement of key stakeholders, including DHSC. The vision of MRN is to improve outcomes for people affected by mesothelioma by bringing researchers together and therefore driving research progress and improving the quality of research. The network is supported by a £5 million donation from the Victor Dahdaleh Foundation, which matches the funding given to Imperial College London by the Government to establish the National Centre for Mesothelioma Research. I could say more about this, but it might be better if I write more to the noble Baroness on this important matter. I suspect she knows a lot of it, but it is important, and I will copy in all Members of this Committee.

The noble Lord, Lord Allan of Hallam, asked which cases might lose out on the uprated rates if they are paid before April. Perhaps I can provide some form of reassurance. The uprating regulations apply only in relation to any case in which a person first fulfils the conditions of entitlement to a payment under the 1979 Act scheme on or after 1 April 2024. As the cases being held will have first become entitled to a payment under the 1979 Act scheme before 1 April 2024, the amount they will receive is unaffected by the uprating. I hope that clarifies that. I think I might have mentioned that in my opening remarks, but I just say it to re-clarify it.

The noble Lord, Lord Allan, and the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, asked about historic claimants paid ultra vires. I reassure both of them that their understanding of my understanding or perhaps my understanding of their understanding is correct, whichever way around that reads best.

The noble Lord, Lord Allan, asked whether anybody has missed out. I probably covered that okay in my previous responses, but perhaps to go a bit further the department understands that historic claims made for these two conditions will have already received lump sum payments. As a result, to reclarify, these claimants have not missed out on a payment because this change was not made sooner.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, asked whether in situations where a sufferer dies before a successful claim is paid the lump sum payment is paid to the estate of the deceased at the same rate. If someone with the disease makes a claim but dies before payment is made, the payment is made to their estate at the same rate that they would have received had they received their payment while they were alive.

The noble Lord, Lord Allan of Hallam, asked who will benefit from this change and whether this will benefit only new claims or historic claims. I think have covered that. The noble Lord may wish to rise if I have not.

[Lord Allan of Hallam (LD)]

I am grateful to the Minister. The question also relates to the previous answer that he gave. If somebody in the new category that we are talking about had applied in August last year, they would have received the payment; however, had they applied in October, they would be held in the queue. We want to understand that a person who has been held in the queue because they applied in October—at that point, the department understood that it did not have the legal authority—will not lose out in any way, particularly if, sadly, they have passed away between their application and now, the point at which we can release the funds because we have passed this statutory instrument. I do not want to delay this any longer; the faster we get it, the better.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

Absolutely. That was my understanding too. My understanding is that they would not lose out, given the case raised by the noble Lord. If that is not correct for any reason, I will certainly write to him; however, I have made it clear that nobody will lose, and I should stick to that point.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, asked about gender differences. Her question was interesting; she asked it last year but did not get an answer, I think. There is always a degree of uncertainty in predicting future disease incidence, but the annually published data from the HSE show that annual mesothelioma deaths were broadly similar in the period from 2012 to 2020 but lower in 2021. Before that, annual deaths had been rising steadily since the late 1960s, but current projections suggest that annual mesothelioma deaths in both males and females are expected to decline over the long term as a consequence of past reductions in asbestos exposure for both males and females.

How soon the decline in annual deaths will become evident is expected to be different, with deaths among males declining during the 2020s and deaths among females remaining broadly level during that period before starting to decline. The reason for this lies in different patterns of asbestos exposure in males and females in the past—the noble Baroness will appreciate that, I think—with heavy exposures being reduced or eliminated sooner in specific industries where fewer females worked, such as shipbuilding, insulation work and asbestos product manufacturing.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, asked about regional variations. Some asbestos exposures, such as during construction work, were widespread across all regions whereas other exposures, for example those I alluded to earlier associated with shipyards and asbestos product factories, were associated with particular regions. Of course, those regions still tend to have higher mortality rates today, sadly.

I should make a point of clarification to do with equalisation. We estimate that to equalise awards for people diagnosed with the disease and dependants in 2024-25 would require an additional £1 million to £4 million a year—I think I said £1.4 million and I apologise for that—from the DEL budget and no provision has been made for that in the current spending review settlement.

With that, I hope I have answered all the questions.

Motion agreed.