Parliamentary Scrutiny of Leaving the EU Debate
Full Debate: Read Full DebateDepartment: Department for Exiting the European Union
Stephen Gethins
Main Page: Stephen Gethins (Scottish National Party - Arbroath and Broughty Ferry)Department Debates - View all Stephen Gethins's debates with the Department for Exiting the European Union
(8 years, 1 month ago)
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Stephen Gethins (North East Fife) (SNP)
I welcome the new Opposition spokesperson, the hon. and learned Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer), to his role. We very much look forward to working with him during these crucial few months. I thank him for bringing this motion to the House. The Secretary of State has shown that he still has a long way to go to meet the doubts and questions that the hon. and learned Gentleman raised, but securing such a debate is a step in the right direction.
The talks and negotiations during this crucial period will have an impact across every policy area in every part of the country, but we are seeing very little in the way of detail. I fear that this lack of detail has more to do with a Cabinet who cannot agree among themselves than with any ideas about the negotiating strategy. I am a new Member of Parliament, but other hon. Members may be able to tell me whether it is normal for a Secretary of State—we welcome him—to spend so much time at the Dispatch Box without actually telling us anything. He spent a lot of time at the Dispatch Box, and I am none the wiser about where we are at the moment, which seems remarkable.
I wonder whether the Government can tell us something else about the negotiations. They tell us they will have the negotiations, but when my hon. Friend the Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Neil Gray) brought up the issue of the single market—other hon. Members have asked other key questions—they have shown that they cannot answer a simple question. That is striking. When they sit down with our European partners and start the negotiations, what will they say? What can they possibly tell our European partners? We do not even have a starting point.
Stephen Gethins
I just want to make this point. The Secretary of State told my hon. Friend that this is like buying a house. It is not; it is a democratic process that will have a significant impact on our citizens, and it should be subject to the most intense scrutiny of this place and of the devolved Administrations.
Sammy Wilson
I know that the hon. Gentleman and his party are resisting the will of the people as expressed across the United Kingdom in this referendum, but what does he find difficult about the Secretary of State’s assurance that when it comes to trade—just to take the single market issue—the Government are seeking to ensure maximum exposure to the European market for British manufacturers and service industries, which is the aim of the negotiations? What is so difficult about that?
Stephen Gethins
Many of the hon. Gentleman’s own constituents—57% of the people of Northern Ireland, in fact—voted to remain part of the EU, for many reasons, one of which was an act of irresponsibility committed by the Secretary of State and others, who campaigned to leave the European Union based on a blank sheet of paper. I have said in this House before, and will say again, that when we campaigned for independence my right hon. Friend the Member for Gordon (Alex Salmond) had the decency to produce a 670-page White Paper. People knew what they were voting for, and it was not the kind of mess that we are seeing today.
Mr MacNeil
I am sure that the farmers and fishermen of Northern Ireland will be as worried and concerned as the crofters and fishermen of the Outer Hebrides that there are no guarantees for their funding post 2020. That is a real case of material concern for people in all parts of the UK.
Stephen Gethins
My hon. Friend raises a very good point. Funding is a significant concern for fishermen, farmers, universities and others who rely on our relationship with the European Union. We are dealing with an act of negligence from the Government, who are providing us with no detail; that builds on an act of gross irresponsibility by the Vote Leave campaign.
Stephen Gethins
If you can answer for that act of gross irresponsibility, I will give way.
Kwasi Kwarteng
I am very grateful. The hon. Gentleman has mentioned that his party produced a 600-page dossier ahead of the Scottish vote, but when asked which currency would be used under independence, it simply had no idea, nor any clue about the consequences of independence.
Stephen Gethins
That is remarkable. My right hon. Friend the Member for Gordon set up a fiscal commission working group to look into that, covering a whole range of arguments. I am sure we can make that available to the hon. Gentleman. We had all the details. There were two Nobel laureates on that group. How many Nobel laureates do the Government have? Zero. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. Mr MacNeil, you are an exceptionally boisterous fellow, and in the course of your boisterous behaviour appear to be chewing some sort of gum. It is very eccentric conduct. I have great aspirations for you to be a statesman, but your apprenticeship still has some distance to travel.
Stephen Gethins
If the House will forgive me mixing my cultural references, the three Brexiteers and their friends have got us into another fine mess, and cannot tell us how they are going to get us out of it.
Stephen Gethins
I will come to the hon. Gentleman in a moment.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Gordon raised a very significant point about the devolved Administrations that, like most points put to the Secretary of State, was not answered. Fishing and farming are not a matter of negotiation in these islands, so will responsibility for fishing and farming go straight to the Scottish Parliament after Brexit? Or is there going to be a change to schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998? There is no answer. But that is not a matter of negotiation. It is a matter of fact—and it is facts that the Secretary of State cannot give us.
The situation is extraordinarily disappointing for the devolved Administrations, who have gone from being involved to being consulted. Will the Secretary of State tell us, as the Prime Minister told us previously, whether there will be an agreed position with the devolved Administrations? Perhaps someone will take a note of that for him. What will be the formal role of the Scottish Parliament?
This place and the UK Government do not have a particularly good track record when standing up for fishermen, farmers and others. The right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) has raised the point, as has my right hon. Friend, that when we went into the European Union Scotland’s fishermen, and fishermen across these islands, were described as expendable.
Alex Salmond
This intervention will give the Secretary of State the opportunity to consider my hon. Friend’s question. In the days after she took office, the Prime Minister met Scotland’s First Minister and seemed to assure Scotland that article 50 would not be triggered until there was an agreed position with the Scottish Administration. It is very fair for my hon. Friend to ask whether that is still Government policy or whether the Prime Minister has been countermanded by the Secretary of State for Brexit.
Mr David Davis
I apologise for having to intervene to give this answer. The Prime Minister showed very clearly how important she considered the devolved Administration in Scotland. She went to Scotland first after coming to power, and said, plainly, two things. One was that we will consult and have detailed discussions with the Scottish Administration, and those in Wales and Northern Ireland, before we trigger article 50 and bring the great repeal Bill to the House. But we cannot give anyone a veto. We consider ourselves bound by the decision of the British people. No one can say, “No, you can’t do this”, but we will do everything possible in our power to meet the needs of the Scottish people and the other devolved Administrations.
Stephen Gethins
Yet more time at the Dispatch Box for the Secretary of State, but with even less information. We were told that there would be an agreed position with the devolved Administrations. He seems to be backtracking on that. Perhaps in due course he will tell us whether there will still be that agreed position. However, I do not want to get him into trouble yet again, so will leave him to chat to the Prime Minister about that.
Stephen Gethins
I will make some progress. There is a valuable point that this place has to learn. Democracy in the United Kingdom does not begin and end in this Parliament, and has not done so for some time. Yet at the moment, we are in a situation where the unelected House of Lords along the corridor will have a greater say on what happens next than the elected devolved Administrations.
I will set out some questions that I know those in the devolved Administrations will be asking themselves. What happens to the coastal communities fund, upon which fishing communities depend? What happens to the CAP—an issue raised not least by my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil)? What happens to the renewables obligations, where Scotland is streaking ahead of the rest of the United Kingdom, along with our climate change obligations? What happens to our world-leading universities—I have to mention the University of St Andrews and its outstanding work in this field?
Stephen Gethins
My hon. Friend is clearly in need of a better education.
What happens to the environment and our air pollution targets? What happens to the social protections? All those questions are unanswered—and we still do not have an answer on what will happen on the single market or to European nationals.
Mr Jenkin
I chair the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee. The hon. Gentleman is raising very legitimate points on the very legitimate basis that democracy exists in other parts of the United Kingdom somewhat independently of this House. We therefore need a respectful and constructive dialogue between the United Kingdom Government and the Administrations in the other parts of the UK, as well as between this Parliament and the other Parliaments of the United Kingdom. I have already visited the Scottish Parliament with my Committee to that end, and am offering to give evidence to the Scottish Parliament on those questions and how we should address them. I hope that the dialogue he wants will be in that spirit of co-operation.
Stephen Gethins
I thank the hon. Gentleman for raising those points and for visiting Edinburgh. I encourage him and his colleagues on the Committee to interact with their colleagues on the Committees of the Scottish Parliament. I am glad to be able to say this time that I think he has made a very fair point. I agree that that is what should happen.
Stephen Gethins
I want to make some progress.
Key questions need to be answered, for example, on the single market. I want to talk about European nationals for a moment. European nationals have made this country their home. They contribute significantly to our social and financial wellbeing. They make our society all the richer by being part of it. For the International Trade Secretary to describe them as “cards” was utterly unacceptable, although I note the Brexit Secretary is rowing back from that.
Stephen Gethins
On that point, I give way to the hon. Gentleman, who has been trying to intervene.
Mr Jones
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the Government cannot even be straight on the structural funds, which he mentioned? The Chancellor’s letter earlier this year refers only to funds allocated already, but not to the huge amounts of funding for the north-east, for example, that is yet to be allocated. Even on that there is confusion. If it is not the full amount, the north-east, like other regions, could lose hundreds of millions of pounds.
Stephen Gethins
The hon. Gentleman makes a valid point, and that situation affects universities, businesses and so many others, including cultural organisations such as St Athernase church in Leuchars in my constituency, which is 850 years old, and which was looking for European funding to help keep that jewel standing. It must now think about where it goes next, without any answers. We need to plan well beyond 2020, so he makes an excellent point.
Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Stephen Gethins
Not at the moment.
That point reminds me that the Institute for Government has said:
“There is a gaping void in the Government negotiating strategy.”
There is also a gaping void in their policy. They are responsible for negotiating on behalf of all of us, which should concern us. We have not seen any more details. We have not seen a Green Paper, although I am not sure whether Ministers have.
We should think about the impact. The Fraser of Allander Institute says that in Scotland alone—I know hon. Members from elsewhere in the United Kingdom have concerns—there will be 3% fewer jobs by the time we leave the European Union, which could mean 80,000 jobs. Real wages could be 7% lower, which will affect households. The Treasury—these are the Government’s own figures—warns that the cost of leaving the European Union could be £66 billion.
Joanna Cherry
My hon. Friend will be aware that the financial services sector in Scotland supports 150,000 jobs, many of which are in my Edinburgh South West constituency. He will also be aware that there is concern in the sector about whether passporting rights will be lost or kept as a result of Brexit. Does he agree that, if the Government are not successful in negotiating passporting rights for the financial sector, many jobs are likely to leave Scotland and go to the European continent?
Stephen Gethins
My hon. and learned Friend rightly makes an excellent point on the effect on her constituency. Professor Graeme Roy from the Fraser of Allander Institute has said that leaving the EU would have a
“significant negative impact on the Scottish economy”,
which rings true with my hon. and learned Friend’s point.
Mr Rees-Mogg
The hon. Gentleman mentioned a moment ago that people wanted certainty beyond 2020. Is he aware that the multi-annual financial framework will not be renewed until 2020, and therefore that there is uncertainty even if we remain within the European Union as to how funding will continue after that date, including for the crofters of the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil)?
Stephen Gethins
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on referring to my hon. Friend the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar correctly. The hon. Gentleman is right about 2020, but universities, businesses, regions and local authorities will negotiate and collaborate with one another well beyond that. They are currently not certain of membership of the European Union, the single market and the continued benefits of those programmes. I therefore do not agree with him on that point. That is a significant amount of uncertainty.
Stephen Gethins
I will not give way yet.
Over the coming little while, much of the debate should be about scrutiny—we should be able to talk about our constituents who are affected—but it should also be about vision and the kind of country we want to see if the rest of the United Kingdom leaves. I was proud, as I am sure every member of my party was, that 62% of people in Scotland voted to remain.
Stephen Gethins
I will not give way at the moment.
That 62% represented the biggest gap between leave and remain in any part of the United Kingdom. For me, that speaks of a positive vision. That is the vision of a country that wants to take its place in the world. I joined the Scottish National party because I believe in a Scotland that is equal in this family of nations throughout the European Union. I believe in a Scotland that should co-operate on an equal basis with our partners in the Netherlands, Norway, Germany, France, England and Wales—[Interruption]—and indeed Northern Ireland, which is among our closest friends and partners. I believe that the EU nationals who have made Scotland their home are welcome and should stay and make a contribution.
I am proud to be part of a group that draws members from across the United Kingdom and beyond. We want a country that is outward looking and co-operating with our European partners. That is why so many people in Scotland and elsewhere are turning away from the United Kingdom and a Conservative Government who are being led by the nose by UKIP, talking about EU nationals as “cards”, and talking about firms drawing up and putting out lists of foreigners. I do not subscribe to that, and nor does any SNP Member.
We want more scrutiny, but I fear that it will be insufficient. I want to hear the Minister answer my questions and the valid points made by the hon. and learned Member for Holborn and St Pancras.
Several hon. Members rose—
The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Mr David Jones)
May I join the hon. Member for Brent North (Barry Gardiner) in congratulating all Members who contributed to this excellent debate about what the motion rightly describes as the “defining issue” facing the United Kingdom?
We agree that it is entirely proper that Parliament should scrutinise the Government’s approach to the process of leaving the European Union and that there should be full and continuing debate on that process. It is beyond doubt—this was fully accepted by the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. and learned Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer), and many other hon. Members who have spoken today—that the Government have received clear instructions from the British people that Britain should leave the EU.
Mr Jones
I will not because I have very little time.
The referendum held on 23 June was one of the biggest democratic exercises in British history. The turnout was high, at 72%, with over 33 million people participating. Over 1 million more people voted to leave than to remain. The turnout was bigger than at any general election since 1992. No single party or Prime Minister has achieved more votes in our history than did the vote to leave in June. This was a once-in-a-generation vote, and that decision must be respected. As my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve) said, we now all have a duty as Members of this House to respect, and not to seek to frustrate, the will of the people of the United Kingdom. I am pleased to observe that most hon. Members who have participated today have agreed with that proposition.
The Government recognise that Parliament must play a full part in the United Kingdom’s withdrawal from the EU, and we will of course observe in full all legal and constitutional obligations that apply during the course of withdrawal. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said, we are committed to working with Parliament as we seek to obtain the best deal for Britain in that process of withdrawal. Let me be absolutely clear, however, that triggering the article 50 procedure is a matter for the royal prerogative.
We will take fully into account the views of all Members in our parliamentary engagement, which has already, in the short life of my Department, been extensive. Debates such as today’s are part of the process whereby Parliament will hold the Government to account. So far, in the two and a half working weeks since the summer recess, my right hon. Friend has made two oral statements and appeared before two Select Committees. In his opening speech, he listed the parliamentary engagements that Ministers from his Department have attended and will continue to attend. This Government welcome and encourage such participation.
The restoration of parliamentary sovereignty is at the very core of why we are leaving the European Union. Once we have left, the primacy of the United Kingdom Parliament will no longer be in doubt. As my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir William Cash) said, that is what the great repeal Bill will secure.
Mr Jones
The House will of course be fully engaged as matters progress, but I have to repeat to the hon. Gentleman—and I remind him that I have been more generous in giving way than was his colleague the hon. Member for Brent North—that he has to understand the element of confidentiality in the negotiations that was quite rightly identified by the House of Lords EU Committee. We fully agree that that balance will have to be struck, which is why we seek to amend the motion. We agree that there should be a transparent debate on the Government’s plans for leaving the EU and that there should be proper—
Mr Jones
I will not give way further.
But that process should also respect the decision of the British people to leave the EU and should not adversely affect our negotiating position. We believe that is the sensible position to adopt. It is one that I believe would receive the approval of most sensible people in this country. We do not propose to veil our preparations for negotiation in secrecy, but at the same time we want to serve the national interest, which means going about the negotiations in a practical and sensible manner.
One theme that was developed during the course of the debate and raised by a number of right hon. and hon. Members, including the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms), my hon. Friends the Members for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) and for Dudley South (Mike Wood) and the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian C. Lucas), was membership of the single market and freedom of movement. The Government’s position is that although the ability to trade with EU member states is clearly vital to our prosperity, there is clearly no mandate for a deal that involves accepting the existing arrangements governing free movement of people from the European Union, but we do not accept that there is a binary trade-off between border control and access to the single market for goods and services. We are aiming for the best deal for Britain. That is what all hon. Members should strive for.
I wish to reiterate my thanks and those of the hon. Member for Brent North to all hon. Members who have participated in the debate. There have been excellent contributions from a large number of Members. It was heartening that another theme that developed was that we must understand that the referendum is over and has been completed, and we all have to accept the result and move on together as a House in the national interest. That point was most clearly expressed by my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt).
We will give full consideration to all the points raised so clearly by so many right hon. and hon. Members today, and the further points that will no doubt similarly be raised in the weeks and months to come. We are happy to accept the Opposition’s motion, which is helpful and has been the catalyst for an excellent debate that has developed the argument significantly, subject to the addition of the words contained in the amendment. This country now stands on the threshold of a new chapter in its history, and a new relationship with the continuing members of the European Union. Every single Member of this House, I know, will want our withdrawal to be a success for the national interest. I believe that the amendment is entirely proper and commend it to the House.
Amendment (b) agreed to.
Main Question, as amended, put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House recognises that leaving the EU is the defining issue facing the UK; believes that there should be a full and transparent debate on the Government’s plan for leaving the EU; and calls on the Prime Minister to ensure that this House is able properly to scrutinise that plan for leaving the EU before Article 50 is invoked; and believes that the process should be undertaken in such a way that respects the decision of the people of the UK when they voted to leave the EU on 23 June and does not undermine the negotiating position of the Government as negotiations are entered into which will take place after Article 50 has been triggered.