Oral Answers to Questions

Ruth George Excerpts

Monday 5th February 2018 Commons Chamber

[Guy Opperman]

I am happy to take representations from the right hon. Gentleman, and I will look at that point with my colleagues who handle universal credit.

[Ruth George (High Peak) (Lab)]

Bearing in mind the Secretary of State’s call for clear statistics, will she welcome today’s Library paper, which clarifies that 113,000 children will cease to receive free school meals under the proposed changes to universal credit, withdraw the claim that 50,000 more children will benefit at one point in time and bring that to the attention of the House?

[Alok Sharma]

A consultation is taking place, and the Department for Education will respond to it. Everyone who is currently on universal credit will have that benefit protected as long as the children remain in that education setting.

Personal Independence Payments

Ruth George Excerpts

Wednesday 31st January 2018 Westminster Hall

[Ruth George (High Peak) (Lab)]

Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that in the impact assessment from May 2012 for the introduction of personal independence payments under the coalition Government, the objectives were to ensure that expenditure was sustainable and to save £2.24 billion a year by reducing claimants by 500,000 a year?

[Justin Tomlinson]

And the reality is that we are spending £3 billion more on supporting the most vulnerable people. That is partly because we have an extremely proactive Minister who, rightly, meets regularly with charities, stakeholders, individual users and MPs from across the House. I did the same when I was a Minister, and the system continues to be improved.

Finally, under DLA the higher rate was given for visual impairment at 36%, but it is now 79%. The system is not perfect and we need to continue moving it, but we can all access the stats from the Library. They are independent of the Government. They are the reality. That does not excuse mistakes or times when the system lets people down, but it is a fallacy to think that the old DLA system was better. It was not better, which is why the charities and stakeholders support the principle of PIP.

--- Later in debate ---

[Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hosie. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North West Durham (Laura Pidcock) on securing this important and timely debate. She made some valid points and highlighted the sheer volume of responses that she received when she put out a call on social media. That demonstrates the clear problems with the PIP system and with the benefit.

My hon. Friend talked powerfully about the outsourcing of the assessment process, which we all know is simply not working from our experience with the work capability assessment. It is about time that those assessments were brought back in-house because there is poor-quality decision making and no scrutiny. Frankly, it is unacceptable that taxpayers’ money is going out to those providers.

[Ruth George]

Does my hon. Friend agree that outsourcing decisions waste money and are against the interest of claimants? Discrepancies between Capita, which sees 59% of claimants at home for a home assessment, and Atos, which does the vast majority of PIP assessments but sees only 16% of claimants at home, expose the divisions in the private sector and show why the assessments should be brought back in-house and monitored properly.

[Marsha De Cordova]

It is important that the Government listen to the valid point made by my hon. Friend, and I hope the Minister will address it. We have heard testimony about the Department’s approach to disabled people. People said that it felt cold and that they were not treated as human beings, but they have to engage with it.

I pay tribute to my many hon. Friends who have spoken—it is important that so many of them are here—including my hon. Friends the Members for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson), for North Durham (Mr Jones), for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Emma Hardy), for Great Grimsby (Melanie Onn), for Crewe and Nantwich (Laura Smith), for Reading East (Matt Rodda), and for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Gerald Jones), and the good interventions from my hon. Friends the Members for High Peak (Ruth George) and for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green).

My hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby highlighted the points about face-to-face assessments well. The assessment process, the centres and the information provided have to be accessible, but that is not happening on all occasions. That needs to change. This debate has been called because of the crisis in the claimant experience of personal independence payments.

Personal Independence Payment

Ruth George Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd January 2018 Commons Chamber

[Ms McVey]

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for his comments. He always likes to see things in his own inimitable way, and he is quite right. Both sides of the House are meant to be supporting this decision, but listening to the tone and the noises coming from the Opposition Benches, it is difficult to believe that. He makes a fair point about getting the decisions right first time and helping the decision makers to get it right. There was an independent review—the Gray review—and we will be taking its advice on board.

[Ruth George (High Peak) (Lab)]

I, too, welcome the right hon. Lady to her post. I also welcome the decision that she has made. Bearing in mind the fact that many disability benefit claimants with mental health issues struggle to get out of the house, does she share my concern and that of the Work and Pensions Committee about the great discrepancies between contractors and between regions? There are discrepancies relating to the number of people being allowed a home visit for their benefits assessments. Will she please review this, to ensure that those people can get the benefits they deserve and not be sanctioned because they cannot leave their house?

[Ms McVey]

The hon. Lady has raised a good point about how some people are visited while others have to go in for assessment and support. That was part of the freedoms of contracting, so that we could get best practice. Were some people better seen at home? Were other people better seen in their local community? We constantly gauge and value that, and we will continue to do so.

Universal Credit: Private Rented Sector

Ruth George Excerpts

Tuesday 9th January 2018 Westminster Hall

[Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the effect of universal credit on the private rented sector.

It is a privilege to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. It was good to obtain this debate, and I am delighted that a range of colleagues have come to speak on such an important issue.

This is indeed an important debate. We all know and read about the challenges with the lack of housing across the UK. Some 1.2 million to 1.3 million people on housing benefit or local housing allowance are in the private rented sector. Most of us will know from our constituency casework that many private sector landlords are reluctant to let to people on housing benefit. My supposition, which is clearly proved by the evidence, is that the universal credit roll-out, up until the recent changes in the Budget, would not acknowledge the issues and the challenges and frustrations for private sector landlords not wishing to rent to people on benefit and certainly not to those on universal credit, and that without a default payment direct from the Department for Work and Pensions to the landlord, even more people in the private sector will pull out of the whole area. That has proved to be the case.

How did we get to this situation? I remember that when I was last a Member of this place, I served on the Select Committee on Work and Pensions and I repeated ad nauseam to the then Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr Duncan Smith), that one fundamental flaw of universal credit was the insistence that the tenant should receive the full housing benefit and pay it on to the landlord. I understood the argument; I understood that that was about encouraging responsibility. My frustration—I argued this very assertively in numerous Select Committee sittings—was that the problem with ideologues is that they fit the facts to their ideology, rather than recognising that facts are facts. I was sure, from my own experience as an MP and from talking to colleagues, that sadly many tenants on universal credit would not pass the money over to their landlords, for one reason or another, and that that would make the private rented sector even more nervous about letting to people on housing benefit.

[Ruth George (High Peak) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman is making an excellent speech on a very important issue, and I apologise because I will have to attend the Finance (No. 2) Bill Committee shortly. A landlord who came to my surgery had 20 tenants on universal credit, of whom 18 were in arrears and nine had to be evicted. That is at this very early stage of the roll-out, when full service has not yet come to my area. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that those are the sort of facts that do not fit into the theory of universal credit?

Universal Credit Project Assessment Reviews

Ruth George Excerpts

Tuesday 5th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Debbie Abrahams]

I am just going to carry on for a moment, if that is all right.

This is the second time in two years that I have brought to the House’s attention Information Commissioner rulings concerning the DWP that the Government have tried to thwart. The first time was when the Government refused to publish data on the number of people who had died after being found fit for work. Those data were shocking and vindicated those who had pushed for their release for several years. They gave cold comfort for the families and friends of those who had died and to those who were still going through the assessment process.

I appreciate that neither universal credit nor the project assessment review reports were initiated under the tenure of the current Secretary of State, but I do urge him to rethink and publish the reports forthwith. Taxpayers’ money must not be used to hide the Government’s embarrassment.

[Ruth George (High Peak) (Lab)]

When the only impact assessment of universal credit we have seen was published five years ago this month, it committed to a post-implementation review within five years and said:

“A comprehensive evaluation programme is being developed for Universal Credit”

to inform and evaluate long-term policy. Are we not now trying to get some crumbs of the evidence the Government committed to providing five years ago and should have provided?

[Debbie Abrahams]

My hon. Friend makes absolutely the right point. I commend her for her work on the Work and Pensions Committee to expose how important it is to get this right.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Gauke]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. One problem with the legacy system is that it does not cope with those people whose hours might fluctuate below and above 16 hours. The difficulties of moving from one regime to another can discourage people from taking extra hours. That is why it is so disappointing that we do not have cross-party support for these reforms. The Labour party has consistently called on us to pause and fix universal credit. It has done it again today, but in doing so, it has, on more than one occasion, resorted to scaremongering. It is increasingly clear that when it says pause and fix, it means scrap and rewind to the failed system of the past.

[Ruth George]

If the Minister is so convinced of all the facts about universal credit that he claims, why does he not release the post-implementation review that the Department was apparently putting together and give us the full details of how universal credit is working, instead of relying on a study of a tiny sample of single people without jobs that was conducted more than two years ago, before the cuts, in order to make these wild claims?

[Mr Gauke]

What we have released is analytically robust. It enables us to compare with a matched sample, which becomes harder to do as there are fewer single people on jobseeker’s allowance. The reality is that the evidence points to universal credit getting people back into work quicker and ensuring that people are more likely to progress in work.

--- Later in debate ---

[Michael Tomlinson (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to speak on this subject yet again. As we have heard, it is the sixth debate on universal credit in this Parliament and the fourth in the past eight weeks. This gives me another opportunity to reiterate my support for universal credit, which encourages people to get into work and supports them while they are in work, with the overriding aim of simplifying an overly bureaucratic and complicated system by rolling six benefits into one.

However, the title of this debate is slightly different from the others, referring as it does to project assessment reviews carried out between 2012 and 2015, and subsequent documents as well. I wondered what the reason was for that. I suspect that the answer lies in three points. First, Labour Members think that there is a clever parliamentary tactic in tabling motions of this sort. Secondly, no particular benefit can be gained by looking at documents dating back to 2012 to 2015. That point has been made by other hon. Members, and it must be right—we have moved on significantly since then.

Thirdly, Labour Members appear not to not believe in the advantages of the universal credit system, as we have heard again in some of the speeches this afternoon. They risk sounding as though they think that the legacy system was all perfect whereas this system is not. That is not right. The legacy system was complex and bureaucratic. It trapped people into working for a limited period of only 16 hours. I am sure that we have all had constituents, as I have, who did not take on additional work because they calculated that they were better off staying on benefits in the legacy system than getting into work. I do not criticise that, because it was a perfectly logical and reasonable decision to make—I criticise the legacy system and the position that my constituents were put in at the time.

[Ruth George]

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that under the tax credits system, working people could earn up to £5,000 a year more and still keep their working tax credit without losing a penny of it? I very much hope that he advised his constituents of that when they came to him for advice.

[Michael Tomlinson]

The “big bang” roll-out of the tax credits system was an absolute disaster that many of our constituents had to live through for a number of years.

I am disappointed that this motion fails to mention and to acknowledge the good words that we heard from the Chancellor—and not just words, but the additional £1.5 billion that was put in. Some hon. Members have mentioned it, but it could have been put into the motion. The shadow Secretary of State did say that she welcomed those measures, but what she said sounded a little bit mealy-mouthed, certainly to my ears. The hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Neil Gray) mentioned his support in principle for universal credit. I very much enjoyed listening to him speak, as I always do. He said that he was short of time, and I wish that he had had more time to develop his speech and take more interventions. It was a shame that he did not, because he was correct to say that the principle of universal credit is absolutely right. It was good to hear the SNP’s support for it.

In relation to the Budget, I have welcomed the £1.5 billion extra and the reduction in the waiting period. I want the Minister to address this specific question: can he confirm that there was a seven-day wait in the legacy system, and that we have now reduced the wait to zero days, making it shorter than it was even under the legacy system? I particularly welcome, as other Members have done, the payment of two weeks’ housing benefit element, which will not be repayable. That will help the most vulnerable to transition on to universal credit. Too often, during the debate, we heard reference to five weeks’ or six weeks’ wait, but we have not had clarity about the fact that people can a get a payment within five days of applying, or even on the day. I am sure that the Minister will confirm that when he gets to his feet.

I welcome the additional support, and it is disappointing that people have not been more vocal about it. But Citizens Advice Scotland, Citizens Advice, the chief executive of St Mungo’s and the chief executive of the Trussell Trust—my hon. Friend the Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Wendy Morton) gave the full quote—have all voiced their support for the scheme.

I would like to mention another myth: the allegation that the universal credit hotline was a premium phone line, which of course it is not. I would be grateful if the Minister confirmed that the hotline is now free, and that by the end of the year all phone calls to the Department will be free. I welcome the opportunity to set out the advantages of the system and the additional money that has gone in to help the most vulnerable to transition on to universal credit. We should look to transfer the most vulnerable not only on to universal credit, but into work, and I believe that that is what the system does.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ruth George (High Peak) (Lab)]

As someone who has worked for the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers on behalf of low-paid shop workers for nearly 20 years, I have been banging on about universal credit for many a year. It is a pleasure to see so many Members across both sides of the House taking such an interest in the policy. We are not surprised by that, because the policy will affect not just the 7 million households who will become claimants—an average of 10,800 households in each constituency—but the 2.5 million households who are currently on legacy benefits and will cease to receive anything because of the cuts to universal credit.

I welcome the constructive comments made by Members on both sides of the House about universal credit, and I have always tried to be constructive when I address the policy. I have set up the all-party group on universal credit, and I am pleased to see contributions being made to that group by Members from all parts of the House. I sit on the Work and Pensions Committee, which will be pleased to receive the report.

If the Government are open about scrutiny and they really want to learn and fix universal credit, why are they not publishing an impact assessment on it? It is not just about the reports; we last had an impact assessment on universal credit five years ago, almost to the day. Since then, almost £5 billion a year has been cut from that policy. The last impact assessment for universal credit stated:

“A comprehensive evaluation programme is being developed…The evaluation will need to meet the immediate need for feedback and evidence on implementation issues”.

Apparently, the evaluation programme will include

“ongoing monitoring, evaluation and analysis; a ‘live running review’ of implementation and delivery; a fuller evaluation of implementation and delivery and ongoing analysis of outcomes and impacts.”

I want the Minister to answer this question when he replies to the debate: where are those assessments of universal credit that the impact assessment of December 2012 said would be put in place? Have they actually been produced? If not, why not? If they have been produced, following that commitment, why have they not been published? Why have we waited for five years and seen £5 billion of cuts but still not seen any evidence from the Conservative party on how universal credit is affecting the hundreds of thousands of people now receiving it, and on how it will affect millions in future?

At the very least there should have been an assessment of the impact of those cuts from the July 2015 Budget. That Budget cut £3.2 billion from work allowances and nearly £1.5 billion with the two-child policy, but it was left to the IFS to tell us that 3 million working households with children will be £2,500 a year worse off and that work incentives for single parents and couples who both work are actually weakened under universal credit now that the work allowances have been cut.

Unlike under tax credits, if universal credit claimants work overtime, their next month’s universal credit payment is docked by 63% of whatever they earn. Where is the work incentive in that? If a parent earns an extra £100 in the run-up to Christmas to try to pay for some presents and give their family a decent holiday, they will see their next universal credit payment cut by £63. That is not a work incentive.

[Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP)]

The hon. Lady is speaking very well, and I am glad that she is raising these issues. Is she aware that for some families who now fall victim to the family cap on universal credit it does not pay to go out to work, because work will pay them less than the nursery fees required if they have a third child?

[Ruth George]

Absolutely. Childcare is a key issue when families are trying to raise themselves out of poverty, as the hon. Lady rightly says. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation has found that 30% of children are now in poverty, and nearly two thirds of those are in working households. Some 8 million adults live in poverty in a household where someone is in work.

Universal credit was meant to address the problems of poverty and work incentives. It does not. The Government are refusing to publish the evidence needed to fix their own policy, which they claim is what they want to do. If they really want to fix universal credit before it is rolled out to another 6 million families, they need to publish not just these reports but a full impact assessment, laying their policy and themselves open to the scrutiny that this House and the public deserve.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

Universal Credit Sanctions

Ruth George Excerpts

Monday 4th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Jim McMahon]

That was my experience. We were working long hours and we relied on tax credits to be able to pay the rent and put food on the table. Through no fault of our own, we were trapped in a system that put blame and responsibility on to our shoulders, even though the fault was eventually proven to be that of the system. Families experience a great deal of stress when they do not have the necessary disposable income to satisfy all the demands that are coming in. That is the extremely difficult experience of people who are on universal credit.

I was in a secure job with a regular wage, and my hours were not changing all the time. I would fear being a universal credit claimant today if I were in insecure employment where my hours changed from one week to the next, where my employer would not give me certainty of employment or, even worse, where my employer would put me on a zero-hours or self-employed contract and I had to declare my earnings up front just in case there was an error further down the line. That does not strike me as a system that has been designed to help the claimant. It seems to have been designed to create a culture, and I believe that it is a corrosive culture. It is not a safety net to catch people, or a top-up benefit system that is meant to make work pay. It is a culture that talks about the deserving poor. It tells people that they are poor because of their own fecklessness or laziness, or as a matter of choice, not because they have been caught in a cycle of debt and despair. There also seems to be a grudging idea of what the welfare state is meant to be. People are told, “All right, we’ll pay you the money if we have to, but only if we really have to.” The culture that that creates is very dangerous for a country that has a long history of a welfare state.

More than 1 million working families will be £2,800 worse off under universal credit. Food banks have reported a 30% increase in referrals in areas with full universal credit roll-out. I want to talk about Greater Manchester, and particularly about Oldham. I want to take this opportunity to pay tribute to my neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams), for the leadership that she has shown on this issue. She will know from her constituency the depths of despair that people reach and the problems with the system, but some of these issues can be resolved, provided that the Government step back and listen to these concerns and take enough time to fix them, instead of going full steam ahead into a programme that they know has been built to fail.

We were one of the first pilot authorities, and we now have 4,000 claimants in Oldham. There are 49,000 claimants across Greater Manchester, nearly 20,000 of whom are in work. We have seen delays, mistakes and IT failures, on top of the deliberate decision by the Government to cut payments for those claimants who need them the most. Those things have real consequences. We have heard from Citizens Advice, the Greater Manchester law centre, my own local authority and directly from people working in job centres across Greater Manchester. We have also heard from a wide range of charities, including the Oldham food bank, which have seen scores of people—often referred by the Department for Work and Pensions itself—queueing for food vouchers for the food banks, just to get a basic supply to be able to live. My casework advisers are swamped and so are many of the charities. We fear the roll-out to the full 322,000 legacy benefit claimants, not for ourselves, but because we see what the scale of human suffering will be if the Government continue to fail to heed the warnings that the system is broken.

[Ruth George (High Peak) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is particularly worrying that the sanctions regime is to be rolled out to people who are already in work? As he says, they are often in insecure work with varying hours, which will leave them open to benefit sanctions for reasons beyond their control.

[Jim McMahon]

That is important, because concerns have been raised about when people are underemployed and do not have enough hours for a full-time week and the Government require them to actively pursue work to make up the additional hours. They may be only one or two hours under the threshold, but they are still required to attend an interview. If they work for an employer that has no flexibility and would be happy for them to walk out the door, because there is a queue of 10 people who are willing to take the 35-hour-a-week job, perhaps they cannot get to the appointment or perhaps the employer will not give them the additional hours required to satisfy the jobcentre. That is a real example of what people are going through today.

In a recent survey, Citizens Advice found that 39% of people had waited for more than six weeks and 11% had waited for more than 10 weeks. We have a heard a lot about the need for welfare to mirror work. It ought to provide a smooth transition between employment, changing contract terms and earnings, and significant changes in circumstances, but at its heart it is part of the welfare state. It is a safety net to catch people when they fall on difficult times that helps them to keep their head above water. It is meant to help people, not treat them as undeserving or with suspicion and resentment. For a safety net to work, it must be there when people fall. It should not let people hit the ground hard and then make them wait six or 10 weeks before help arrives. That is not the spirt of a welfare state that people pay into through national insurance. It is an insurance policy, but it fails to be there when people need it. That is fundamental.

There is a contract in place between citizens and the state. If we collectively, through our common endeavour, pay national insurance contributions, that fund ought to be there when we need it. The Government have failed to honour that contract, as far as I can see, and people who pay into that pot have the right to be disgruntled and to question whether it is really there. I would like to believe that that is not what the Government want, but some of the benefits debates in the media are corrosive. We hear the language that gets used by the Government. We are now in a position where the Government would be happy for public support for the welfare state to fall away completely to give them a reason to take the axe even further.

When the banking crisis really hit, people in Oldham did not blame the bankers or the Government; they blamed their neighbours. They looked at the neighbour who had a slightly nicer car than them and wondered why they could not have a nicer car. They saw the people with their suitcases full who were getting into a taxi to go on holiday and asked why they could not go holiday. That is the cruelty. People on low incomes were set against other people on low incomes, and the Government got away with it. When bankers have not been taken to task and corporation tax cuts have been handed out, the axe has been taken to the welfare state that was supposed to support people.

Thirty per cent. of people have reported making more than 10 calls to the universal credit helpline before their application was processed, with many waiting more than 30 minutes. Up until very recently, they were also charged a high premium. Some 57% had to borrow money while waiting for their first payment. So far, 101 job centres covering 14% of all job centres in Great Britain operate universal credit full service, and we fear for what the roll-out really means. But this is more fundamental than all the facts and figures. I talked about how we collectively pay into the pot that should be there to support people, and I could go into a lot of detail about the sanctioning regime and just how unfair and inflexible it is and how it does not take people’s lives into account.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister for Employment (Damian Hinds)]

Time is a little short, but I will seek to address as much of what the hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton (Jim McMahon) raised as possible. I congratulate him on securing this important debate.

I will start by going over some of the principles of why we have conditionality and of how the system we have specifically designed in universal credit supports claimants in meeting conditionality. The hon. Gentleman went over some of the history of our benefit support system and, yes, the system is there to provide a safety net, but it is also a well-understood and long-standing principle that individuals must meet certain conditions to receive certain benefits.

It is possible, of course, to argue for a system of out-of-work support that does not have conditionality—something like a universal basic income—but that is not, to the best of my knowledge, the policy of the official Opposition or of other Opposition parties in this House. That would be a completely different debate.

Conditionality has been a long-standing feature of welfare benefit entitlements in this country, and the scope and scale of it has evolved over time. The introduction of jobseeker’s allowance in 1996 intensified the monitoring of unemployed claimants’ job seeking behaviour, and the incoming Labour Government of 1997 adopted what was called a work-first and work-for-all approach that embraced JSA’s monitoring of claimants’ job search activities, backed up by benefits sanctions in cases of non-compliance. Universal Credit is specifically designed so that work coaches engage with and support people early in their claim, and then throughout, to give them advice and support, and not to lose contact with them. With the introduction of the claimant commitment, it is clear to claimants what is expected of them. Through it, they commit to undertake certain actions, such as attending interviews, applying for jobs and apprenticeships, or going on training, in exchange for receiving benefits.

[Ruth George]

Does the Minister believe it is correct that a single parent of a 13-year-old child should have to sign up to a claimant commitment to seek work for 35 hours a week when they have a child to look after in the school holidays?

[Damian Hinds]

The claimant commitment is agreed between the claimant and the work coach, and it is based on the claimant’s particular circumstances. So where a mother is taking young children to school and back, the time she would have available to work and for work search would be restricted by that. Where someone has caring responsibilities for a spouse, parent or disabled child, that will also change the amount of time they have available. The point is that this is to be a tailored system that responds to and reflects the individual’s circumstances. The individual and the work coach between them agree what is reasonable, and the claimant then commits to it. As I was saying, work coaches have the flexibility to personalise the requirements—I have pretty much covered what I was about to say in that paragraph in responding to the hon. Lady.

Work coaches can also remove all work-related requirements where it is not reasonable to expect claimants to be able to comply, or suspend them temporarily, such as when someone needs time to find a home. We are constantly reviewing our guidance and ensuring that work coaches understand the importance of getting the right levels of conditionality in place, based on a claimant’s individual circumstances. Indeed, when a work coach takes up the role for the first time, they go through a minimum of five weeks of classroom-based learning, after which they consolidate that learning back in their jobcentre. This training covers conditionality and setting appropriate commitments for the specific circumstances of the claimant. Additionally, when a jobcentre goes live with the universal credit full service, existing work coaches there go through three weeks of classroom learning, which also includes how to apply conditionality and agree reasonable commitments. Similarly, work coaches can refer to extensive guidance on how to support claimants with disabilities and complex needs.

It is right that there is a system in place to encourage claimants to meet their requirements and, as a result, move closer to work. As such, if a claimant does not meet the requirements they have agreed to in their claimant commitment, they are referred to a decision maker to determine whether a sanction is appropriate. We take a number of steps to make sure our decisions are fair: the decision maker invites those referred for a sanction to explain why they failed to meet their requirements; and we take the claimant’s individual circumstances into account, including any health conditions or disabilities, and any evidence of good reason, before making a decision to apply a sanction.

Evidence from trials where there was no conditionality for the first 13 weeks showed a significant increase in the length of time spent on benefit. That was due mainly to people taking longer to find work. In addition, more than seven tenths of UC claimants said the potential for sanctions made them more likely to look for work or take steps to prepare for work.

A report from the OECD in 2013 also noted that the UK’s

“long tradition of activation policies to promote the effective reintegration into employment of working age benefit recipients helped limit the rise in unemployment, even during the global and financial crisis”.

When a claimant disagrees with a sanction, they can ask for the decision to be reconsidered. Following that, if necessary, they can appeal against the decision to an independent tribunal. Ultimately, where a sanction is applied, it can only deduct an amount equal to the claimant’s personal element of universal credit—that is, their standard allowance. It does not apply to the additional amounts they may receive in respect of having children, to cover housing costs or to help with the costs of disability.

We have a well-established system of hardship payments and, in universal credit, claimants are able to apply for a hardship payment from the time their payments are reduced through a sanction. Nevertheless, most claimants do what is expected of them and are not sanctioned. The latest published statistics show that at March 2017, 6.9% of people on universal credit had a deduction taken from their standard allowance as a result of a sanction.

The rate in universal credit is higher than the sanction rate for jobseeker’s allowance, but the two are not directly comparable. In UC, if a claimant fails to attend a work-focused interview without good reason they can be sanctioned, whereas if a claimant on JSA fails to attend a work-focused interview, after five days without making contact they would have their claim terminated. In the November statistics release, about two in every 10 adverse sanction decisions are for failing to attend, whereas under UC it is about seven in every 10. To repeat, it cannot be inferred from that that more people are not attending. Rather, it means that non-attendance is often treated differently because UC is a very different benefit that covers not just the individual element, but support for children, housing costs and other elements.

Universal credit is designed to support claimants in a holistic way, ensuring that we help them find or progress in work, while ensuring that they continue to receive help with their housing costs and other benefits. In universal credit, we are more likely to temporarily reduce benefit, for example where there is a complete loss of claimant contact, while we try everything possible to contact the individual. In jobseeker’s allowance—

Universal Credit Roll-out

Ruth George Excerpts

Thursday 16th November 2017 Commons Chamber

[Ruth George (High Peak) (Lab)]

I welcome the constructive comments from Members on both sides of the House. I have set up an all-party group to work with all Members, and I would welcome to the group any Member who has concerns, so that we can look seriously at all the problems that have beset universal credit. The six-week wait is just the start. It is just the start of a horrendous time for anyone who is claiming universal credit.

The local housing allowance for a family three-bedroom house in my constituency is £150 a week. There is a seven-day wait with no payment whatsoever, so a household can be £150 down to start with. The allowance is paid in arrears, but rent is paid in advance, as my hon. Friends have said, so a claimant can be £750 in arrears before they even start receiving universal credit. That is where all the reports of arrears are coming from and it is absolutely wrong. This is not about people on low pay not being able to manage; the system just does not take account of the realities of their lives.

I mentioned the six-week wait to the Minister on Monday and pointed out that it was six weeks until Christmas Day. Those who are applying for universal credit this week will have to wait until after Christmas to receive their payment. They will have just two weeks’ pay to get by on over those six weeks, and services will not be open over Christmas. I appreciate that the Government want to wait for the Budget before taking action, but they must appreciate that the people who are waiting for money over Christmas—families who will be able to afford no sort of Christmas—need the Government to act now to ensure that they can receive the payments they need to feed their children and give them a decent Christmas.

When I asked the Minister about that on Monday, he suggested that people could work more hours in the run-up to Christmas. Indeed, many employers are seeking additional people and overtime. Having worked for USDAW—the shop workers’ union—for many years, I can testify that many people rely on overtime in the run-up to Christmas. Under tax credits, that is perfectly reasonable, and people receive their pay at the end of the day because there is an income disregard, whereby if someone’s income increases by £50 a week on average, they do not lose any tax credits. There is nothing of that sort under universal credit. For every extra pound that someone earns in overtime, they will lose at least 63p from their next universal credit payment. People who do overtime in good faith, and as advised by the Minister, will find that their next month’s universal credit payment has fallen by 63% or even 75% of the overtime that they have earned. That does not help them to cover the costs of Christmas or to stay out of debt.

Like hon. Members on both sides of the House, I am suggesting that the taper rate should be reduced and that an earnings disregard, like that under tax credits, should be introduced. The Government need to pay attention to the realities of people’s lives under a monthly benefit system that hits them hard as soon as they earn any extra. There is an earnings disincentive that the Government must consider. They need to ensure that passported benefits come to everyone—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order.

Oral Answers to Questions

Ruth George Excerpts

Monday 13th November 2017 Commons Chamber

[Damian Hinds]

I do. My hon. Friend knows, and the Labour party should acknowledge, that no one need go without money while they wait for their first regular payment. Labour should not try to put people off accessing the support that is there for them.

[Ruth George (High Peak) (Lab)]

Today is exactly six weeks until Christmas day. Anyone who applies for universal credit today will have to make do on just two weeks of universal credit payments until after Christmas. What assessment has the Minister made of the impact on such families and their ability to let their children enjoy Christmas?

[Damian Hinds]

Our record on the timeliness of universal credit payments has improved markedly and, as the hon. Lady knows, advances are also available. I should also say that in the run-up to Christmas, when many temporary work opportunities are available, universal credit works much better for people, because they are able to access those opportunities, particularly on the verge of the festive season.

Supported Housing

Ruth George Excerpts

Wednesday 25th October 2017 Commons Chamber

[Ruth George (High Peak) (Lab)]

I welcome the announcement made by the Prime Minister at lunchtime and the assurances from the Minister in his speech. I give thanks to Members on both sides of the House for their work—in Select Committees and individually—in pushing forward these issues, and especially to the hon. Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous), whose Westminster Hall debate I attended on 10 October.

As colleagues have said, the Government need to recognise the impact of their policies on long-term sustainable funding for supported housing. I would like to emphasise the supported aspect of that housing, and we have heard many moving stories from Members on both sides of the House about the amazing work organisations in their constituencies do. That work is done by individuals who are often working on the minimum wage with some of our most vulnerable citizens and in some of the most difficult and patience-trying jobs we could imagine. This is really a vocation, not just a job, but those working in supported accommodation at the moment unfortunately often earn only the minimum wage. I really hope the Government will look at making sure that the funding supports quality of provision, as well as quality of employment and real careers for people who support those in supported housing.

May I propose one method of moving forward that will actually assist with the cost? I live in northern Derbyshire, in an area where we have a multitude of small borough councils, each with its own housing area. People in supported housing often wish to move into socially rented accommodation outside the area. That is particularly the case for women fleeing domestic violence—it is very important for them that they do not end up in the same community with the same problems. When the Minister looks at the new scheme, will he therefore see whether it will be possible for people in supported housing to apply to move into social housing and to get support in a different borough? That would save money, assist people and help free up places. At the moment, there are women in refuges in my constituency who would love to move over the border to where they have more support from friends and family, but they cannot do so, because they do not qualify for social housing in that area. I hope Ministers will look at that.

The hon. Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham), who is not in his place, said new Members often seem not to understand the importance of working across the House, but I can assure him that, as a new Member, I absolutely do. I have just sent out to all Members an email about an all-party group on universal credit. I very much hope that we can all come together, look at our experiences in our constituencies and work to get some movement on that issue as well.

Universal Credit Roll-out

Ruth George Excerpts

Tuesday 24th October 2017 Commons Chamber

[Ruth George (High Peak) (Lab)]

The Government’s figures indicate that 90,000 families will be transitioned on to universal credit full service over the next 90 days. Does my hon. Friend therefore agree that while the Government delay making a decision, about 1,000 more families each day, on average, will have to wait six weeks and get further into debt?

[Debbie Abrahams]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and that is why this debate is so urgent—we cannot wait. Although, yes, this is still a small proportion of the full number of people who will have universal credit rolled out to them, this amounts to a 63% increase in the number of people who will be on full service over the next six months.

--- Later in debate ---

[James Cartlidge]

Absolutely. Tax credits created a ceiling.

[Ruth George]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[James Cartlidge]

I will not give way again. I respect the hon. Lady, but I only have a minute left.

As a mortgage broker, I had many cases where an extraordinary amount of a family’s income came from the tax credit system. That is not healthy, and it is not sustainable. I give the Government credit for having the courage—yes, the courage—to take these unpopular decisions. Sometimes, we have to back unpopular decisions, because without such decisions the country cannot move forward. We are doing the right thing, and we should be proud to be doing the right thing.

--- Later in debate ---

[Julian Knight (Solihull) (Con)]

I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms), who has great experience as a former Pensions Minister. I am sure that he is aware that the idea behind universal credit is to change what has become a very dysfunctional welfare system that not only drains public finances and is very inefficient, but is a huge waste of human potential. Deeply flawed as the old welfare system was and remains, however, it is still a lifeline for many of the poorest and most vulnerable people in our society, and we have to be cognisant of that. Ministers must handle it with extreme care, even when acting with the very best of intentions.

I am sure that by now we are all familiar with the shortcomings of the old system. Not only was it very complex and difficult—both to navigate as a claimant, and for the Government and jobcentres to operate—but it created huge disincentives to work, as my hon. Friend the Member for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge) said. Many would-be jobseekers found themselves facing marginal tax rates not seen in this country since Denis Healey sat in No. 11. The idea of universal credit is that it rewards work: people can work the hours that they want, effectively. It brings in that flexibility and ensures that people will not face the very difficult decision, which has been mentioned by some hon. Members, of basically turning down work in order to keep benefits.

[Ruth George]

Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that under the last Labour Government’s tax credit system, the clawback of wages was 39%, whereas under universal credit it is 63%? The individual keeps only 37% of what they earn. If they pay tax, the clawback rises to 75%—they keep a quarter of it.

[Julian Knight]

I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. I am about to discuss tax credits and my experience of dealing with that area as a personal finance journalist in 2003, when the credits were launched.

Work is the only long-term route to financial independence. Not only does long-term unemployment sap an individual’s self-confidence and erode their employability, but children who grow up in workless households are far more likely never to enter employment themselves. Generations of people do not get into work, and therefore poverty beds down. By acclimatising claimants to the rhythms of working life and being designed to ensure that employment always pays, universal credit not only supports today’s claimants, but is helping to steer many of the next generation away from the welfare system altogether, which is a very good thing indeed.

This is, undoubtedly, an enormous change, and Ministers have been wise to choose to proceed cautiously. The full roll-out of universal credit will not be completed until 2020, a whole nine years after the policy was first trialled and enacted. That involves many dry runs, and the process is in very stark contrast to the introduction of tax credits in 2003, when I remember very well that there was huge disruption to millions of people’s lives.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Kerr (Stirling) (Con)]

One of the aspects of last week’s debate—we have seen and heard it again today—was that while Opposition Front Benchers said that they supported the principles of universal credit and that their concerns were about the manner of the roll-out, what we heard from those who sit behind them was abject opposition to universal credit. It appears to me that they do not want so much to pause the roll-out as to completely abandon it.

I speak as someone who not only supports the principle of welfare reform but wishes to see its implementation go forward. Universal credit is so much better at helping people into a position where they can help themselves. I do not add my name to those calling for a pause or halt to the roll-out of universal credit because the roll-out is already planned to take nine years, and it is taking nine years because the Government are taking time to get it right. It is called check and adjust.

[Ruth George]

rose—

[Stephen Kerr]

It is about learning from experience and adapting. It is about continuous improvement. Calling for a pause or halt does not help that process one jot.

[Ruth George]

rose—

[Stephen Kerr]

It is important to tackle a change of such magnitude in that way. It is important to take the right amount of time to absorb the lessons being learned.

[Ruth George]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The hon. Gentleman is not giving way at the moment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ruth George (High Peak) (Lab)]

Let me start by giving credit to Members in all parts of the House who have listened to their constituents and to people who are suffering under the universal credit system and who have called for changes to be made in that system.

As many Conservative Members have pointed out, we have been going through the process of universal credit for six years now, and as the previous Secretary of State said, the system seems to be “fix and learn”. I wonder what problems he was seeking to address when his Government cut £5 billion from the annual budget for tax credit, taking it from a system that helped people into work and putting it into a system that will take an average of £2,500 a year from 3 million working families. I urge all Members to look at the Library figures that state how many families in their own constituencies are currently receiving tax credit and will lose such sums. They should come as a revelation to us all; and to those of us whose constituencies have already experienced the roll-out of full service—not just to unemployed single people, but to families and people who are disabled and seeking to work—they must come as a lesson.

The Government, and other Conservative Members, keep claiming that an extra 250,000 people will move into work under universal credit. I am afraid that that claim is based on figures from 2014-15, based on a small sample of single unemployed claimants before the huge cuts in work allowances were implemented. They do not apply to people who have been claiming employment and support allowance or to families. Analysis of lone parents has shown that their work incentive is reduced by eight percentage points. As for second earners, the huge clawback in universal credit actually reduces their incentive to work and makes it more difficult for families with children to be taken out of poverty. I urge all Members to listen to Citizens Advice and the Child Poverty Action Group, which say that an extra 1 million children will be taken into poverty by universal credit. That must give us all cause for concern.

The six-week wait was not introduced at the outset; it was introduced in August 2015, along with the extra seven days of unpaid waiting time. It does not mirror the world of work. Those who move into work are paid after a month at the most, but mainly within that period, and even those who must wait for a full month can often receive an advance. So this is not mirroring the world of work; it is putting people into debt. Local authorities have found that 31% of people on legacy benefits are in rent arrears, but under universal credit that proportion more than doubles to 73%. Debt is not a way for people to start in the world of work or start on their way in life. All this means that the number of people going to food banks has more than doubled, and they can only do so when they can actually get access to a food bank. In rural areas such as mine and those of many Conservative Members, food banks are not a panacea; they cannot provide food for families across rural areas, and that will mean children going hungry.

We are urging most earnestly the Secretary of State and the Government to listen and make sure this does not affect millions more families, especially as we are coming up to Christmas, and to pause now.