Kashmir

Robert Flello Excerpts

Thursday 19th January 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House notes the escalation in violence and breaches of international human rights on the Indian side of the Line of Control in Kashmir; calls on the Government to raise the matter at the United Nations; and further calls on the Government to encourage Pakistan and India to commence peace negotiations to establish a long-term solution on the future governance of Kashmir based on the right of the Kashmiri people to determine their own future in accordance with the provisions of UN Security Council resolutions.

Let me start by thanking my fellow members of the Backbench Business Committee for allowing me to stand down from the Committee briefly in order to apply for the debate, and for agreeing that it could take place today. I should also declare that I am the current chairman of the all-party parliamentary Kashmir group.

I thank all the groups who have campaigned so steadfastly on this issue for so many years. I particularly thank Raja Najabat Hussain of the Jammu and Kashmir Self Determination Movement, who works tirelessly to keep up the profile of the issue of Kashmir with MPs, but I also thank Fahim Kayani and the Kashmir Movement UK, Sabiya Khan and the British Muslim Women’s Forum, Azmat Khan of the Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front, Najib Afsar and the Jammu Kashmir Liberation Council, and Dr Syed Nazir Gilani and the Jammu and Kashmir Council for Human Rights.

[Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. May I ask him also to put on record his thanks to all the ordinary Kashmiris, in this country and back in Kashmir, who fight time and again, in a peaceful manner, to ensure that this issue is high on the agenda so that we take some action?

[Mr Nuttall]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making that point. I certainly put my thanks to those people on record.

Let me explain why the motion was tabled. Essentially, it was tabled because this issue matters to thousands of my constituents who are of Pakistani and Kashmiri heritage, and I know that it matters to the constituents of a number of other Members who are present today. Many of my constituents have families in Kashmir, and in some cases they have personally lost loved ones, or seen loved ones scarred for life as a result of violence.

Some Members may not be familiar with Kashmir. It is an area of territory that runs across the border between Pakistan and India. The root causes of the conflict can be traced back to 1947, when the colony of India was granted independence by Britain and was partitioned into two separate entities, India and Pakistan. The state of Jammu and Kashmir, with a predominantly Muslim population but a Hindu leader, shared borders with both India and West Pakistan.

The area has a long and complex history. Obviously there is not enough time for me to go into all of it, but suffice it to say that the argument over which nation would incorporate the state led to the first India-Pakistan war, in 1947-48, and there have been several further upsurges in the conflict since then. I do not need to remind the House that both countries are now nuclear powers. Just to complicate matters further, some of the historic territory of Kashmir is now under the control of China.

I am pleased to see my hon. Friend the Member for Reading West (Alok Sharma), the Minister for south Asia, in his place and I am grateful to him for taking the time recently to meet members of the all-party group on Kashmir. I know he will be aware that the fact that Britain was responsible for the partition leads many in the Kashmiri community to believe this country could and should be doing more to try and help resolve this matter. The fact that partition was 70 years ago demonstrates the intransigence of this problem, and I am under no illusion that there are any easy solutions.

I wish to cover two areas: the recent increase in violence and human rights abuses, and the longer-term issue of trying to resolve this long-running conflict. The most recent increase in violence began last year when, on 8 July, 22-year-old Burhan Wani was killed by the security forces in Indian-administered Kashmir. Tens of thousands attended his funeral, at which clashes broke out between the security forces and protestors. Security forces fired live ammunition into the crowd, killing several people and a police officer was also killed.

Since then the authorities have declared a succession of curfews and closed down mobile phone services and media outlets. Attendance at mosques and adherence to religious practices has been restricted. Protestors have organised a series of general strikes and there have been regular public rallies. Schools, colleges and universities have also been closed. The economy has been badly hit. Funerals have often led to further clashes between protestors and the security forces. Critically, scores of Kashmiris have been killed and many thousands of civilians have been seriously injured.

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[Mr Nuttall]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that the matter involves more than one nation and, crucially, is about the rights of the Kashmiri people.

We have to make it clear to both India and Pakistan that we want to help them find a permanent, peaceful solution to the conflict. Of course, this country cannot impose a solution, but we may be able to do more to bring the parties closer together. I want to be absolutely clear that this is not about taking sides and saying, “If you are a friend of Kashmir, you are not a friend of India.” The problem must be resolved by peaceful means. I want the people of Kashmir to be given the right to decide their own future through self-determination, a right which was so historically exercised by the people of this country on 23 June last year when a majority voted to leave the European Union.

No one believes that there is an easy answer, but anything has to be better than having a military-controlled line of partition between the two neighbouring countries. I suspect that there will always be a rivalry between India and Pakistan, but that rivalry should be contained on the field of sport. In responding to the debate, I ask the Minister to set out not only the Government’s position on Kashmir, but what more this country can do.

[Robert Flello]

While I agree that we need a long-term solution that is in the hands of the Kashmiri people, does he agree that there is an important step to be taken beforehand? The Foreign Office and the Government can play an active role in getting both sides round a table to negotiate peace, stability and a calming of the situation, so that children’s lives are not ruined or lost in the meantime. Let us get a summit for peace going and then we can focus on the longer-term solution.

[Mr Nuttall]

I entirely agree. Perhaps I should have finished my sentence, because that is exactly what I was saying. I ask the Minister to set out not only the Government’s position on Kashmir but what more this country can do, either through the United Nations or by working directly with India and Pakistan, to bring the two nations together to find a lasting and peaceful solution to this conflict.

I commend the motion to the House.

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[Mr Sharma]

I am not saying that that is not the way one presents the argument or that that is not right. I am saying that no Government or authority would allow people to visit if they are not free of prejudice.

[Robert Flello]

Will my hon. Friend allow me to intervene?

[Mr Sharma]

No, I will carry on. I am sure that my hon. Friend will be speaking later. [Interruption.]

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[Robert Flello]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend. I am chair of the justice for Colombia group in Parliament. I criticise the Colombian Government time and again, and they let me into their country where I criticise them again.

[Mr Sharma]

Let us look at what has been happening since 1947. In 1948, after a line of control and a ceasefire were declared, India and Pakistan advocated that they should be part and parcel of the negotiations. In 1965 and 1971, India was attacked in an attempt to change that line of control. Again, in 1999, Pakistan tried to seize an opportunity to redraw the internationally accepted line of control. In total, that happened three times: in 1965, 1971 and 1999.

Having been unsuccessful in full-scale military manoeuvres to take control of more of Kashmir, subversive elements within the Pakistani Government have, since the millennium, turned towards terrorism to further their ends. In 2004, Pakistan made a public commitment to prevent terrorist groups from using its territory to plan, prepare or launch attacks against India. Since then the Pakistani spy agency, Inter-Services Intelligence—ISI—has been heavily implicated in India’s most notorious terrorist incidents, most notably the 2008 Mumbai attacks which left nearly 200 dead.

That behaviour—[Interruption.] I will come on to Kashmir, but I am giving some background. That behaviour is regularly seen across Kashmir. Although the line of control is demarked, fighters from Pakistan launch attacks across the state. Those terrorist atrocities are perpetrated only to destabilise the region. They do not help the people of Kashmir or make anyone stronger. All they do is further the misery of millions.

Since the 1948 riots, there has been an attempt to cleanse the region of native people opposed to Pakistani intervention. In the 1990s, we saw the most sustained civil activity aimed at driving Kashmiri Pandits from the Kashmir valley. In 1947, a quarter of a million Pandits lived in Kashmir, now only around 20,000 remain. The majority live in squalid camps in Jammu, desperate to return to their homelands. They are unwilling to settle elsewhere and prejudice their right to return.

The threat of communal violence looms large—an ever present threat for millions. That is why we see images of soldiers across Kashmir: they are there to protect citizens of all stripes. People who want to go to work, school, or university are allowed to do so only under the protection of the Indian army. Without the protection of Indian troops, we can see all too easily what happens. The horrifying stories of brutality from the Peshawar school attacks that left more than 132 schoolchildren dead or the assassination attempt on Malala would not be so uncommon. Very few Members of this House would have done anything but affirm the actions of the British Army in trying to maintain the status quo in Northern Ireland. The army is there to protect the border, just as it did in Ulster, and, just as it did in Belfast when it made sure that young boys and girls from Catholic and Protestant families could continue to live the lives that they wanted.

The National Human Rights Commission of India has freely criticised and called for punishments when the rule of law has not been upheld to a rigorous standard. That is not a level of freedom allowed to those residents in Pakistan, which is recognised as the world’s leading sponsor of terrorism.

The European Parliament observers had this to say after the state elections in 2014—

Oral Answers to Questions

Robert Flello Excerpts

Tuesday 10th January 2017 Commons Chamber

[Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)]

13. What reports he has received on the conditions in which political prisoners are held in Colombia; and if he will make a statement.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Alok Sharma)]

We are concerned by reports about the detention of human rights defenders and activists in Colombia, often held without trial or access to legal representation. Our embassy in Bogota closely follows specific cases. The Prime Minister raised our concerns about threats to human rights defenders with President Santos during the state visit in November.

[Alok Sharma]

We welcome the approval of the new amnesty Bill of course, and we believe it will lead to a benefit for all citizens and the wider region as part of the Columbian peace process. We look forward to all aspects of that law, particularly with regard to disarmament and reintegration.

[Robert Flello]

Happy new year, Mr Speaker.

The transition zones are an important, if not crucial, aspect of the peace agreement, yet we are hearing reports of work on living quarters not even having started, of food being so rotten that people are suffering from severe and possibly lethal food poisoning, and of the supply of water being very scarce. Given that the transition zones are where the FARC troops are supposed to be concentrated as an essential element of the peace agreement, will Her Majesty’s Government please put absolute pressure on the Colombian authorities to ensure that the zones are properly completed?

[Alok Sharma]

We do of course raise these matters with the Colombian authorities on a regular basis. I take the point that the hon. Gentleman has made, and we will of course relay it back.

UK Nationals Imprisoned Abroad

Robert Flello Excerpts

Tuesday 20th December 2016 Westminster Hall

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

While the hon. Lady is on the subject of aid, I wonder whether she had an opportunity on her visit to look at the MSc in security sector management. I understand it was initially funded through a Department for International Development programme and it appears that some of the people who were responsible for Mr Tsege’s detention had taken part.

[Robert Flello (in the Chair)]

Before the hon. Lady responds, I gently suggest that other Members wish to speak and that I will call the Front Benchers at half-past 10 o’clock.

[Fiona Bruce]

Thank you, Mr Flello. I did not have an opportunity to see the project to which the hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) referred.

In conclusion, disrespect for basic human rights continues to be widespread throughout the globe. I see that all too frequently as chair of the Conservative Party Human Rights Commission. It is in that capacity, as well as in my capacity as a Member of Parliament, that I raise concerns about Mr Tsege today. As the Secretary-General of the UN, Ban Ki-moon, so eloquently stated:

“Upholding human rights is in the interest of all. Respect for human rights advances well-being for every individual, stability for every society, and harmony for our interconnected world.”

[Robert Flello (in the Chair)]

There are now six Members who wish to speak. We have 29 and a bit minutes. I call Kerry McCarthy to demonstrate how succinct Members can be.

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[Margaret Ferrier (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (SNP)]

It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Flello. I thank the right hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) for securing this important debate. I do not disagree with anything he said. I declare an interest as vice-chair of the all-party parliamentary group on human rights and chair of the all-party parliamentary group on democracy and human rights in the Gulf. I have tabled written questions on Andy Tsege, and I am thankful that we have now been afforded the opportunity to debate his case.

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee West (Chris Law), who is a vocal campaigner for Andy’s release and has worked closely with Andy’s family and Reprieve over the last six months. Unfortunately, my hon. Friend is unable to attend today’s debate, but I hope that my party colleagues and I are able to convey many of the points he would have intended to make.

As we are all aware, Andy’s situation is very worrying. Ethiopia is a country where tensions are high, where the human rights situation was described only last month as “dire” by a representative of Amnesty International, and where the recent elections in 2015 were held against a backdrop of reported political intimidation of opposition parties. Evidently, Ethiopia is a country fraught with problems, and it is concerning that Andy is currently languishing there.

Since his incarceration, the Ethiopian authorities have continued to peddle the myth that Andy is a terrorist and that his political party, Ginbot 7, is a terrorist organisation. Frankly, that could not be further from the truth and as his partner, Yemi Hailemariam, has said, he is a “politician, not a terrorist.” Ginbot 7, despite sustained pressure from the Ethiopian Government, has not been proscribed as a terrorist organisation by any other Government and, indeed, the UK is yet to be provided with any evidence of Andy’s supposed terrorist activity. It is appalling that Ethiopia is taking that line, and I truly hope that the UK Government have been vocal in rebuffing those claims to their counterparts.

I would be grateful if the Minister outlined whether the Ethiopian authorities have recently tried to provide any evidence against Andy and, if so, what the Government have said to the Ethiopian authorities in response. As per an answer provided by Baroness Anelay of St Johns on 1 December, Andy has now been visited by UK officials on 12 different occasions. That is in addition to the efforts of the Foreign Secretary and the UK ambassador, who regularly raise Andy’s case with the Ethiopian authorities.

Despite those prolonged and sustained efforts, Andy remains locked up in prison. The Government’s representations are welcome, but the Foreign Office must go further and call for Andy’s immediate and unconditional release. We keep hearing from the FCO that Andy has access to legal advice, but that simply does not go far enough. Reprieve has argued that any legal access is effectively pointless, as the Ethiopian Government have already said that there is no legal route by which Andy can be allowed to contest his death sentence.

The UK Government have repeatedly claimed:

“Britain does not interfere in the legal systems of other countries by challenging convictions.”

However, Reprieve categorically disputes that rebuttal. It is of the opinion that the former Foreign Secretary, the right hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr Hammond), personally intervened in the case of Karl Andree, who was released from a Saudi Arabian prison in 2015. As such, will the Minister clarify why it seems that the Government’s approach to Andy is different from their approach to Mr Andree?

Furthermore, what is the Minister’s position on the comments made by the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve) that, as Andy was kidnapped and sentenced to death in absentia, the Government should be calling for his release? Last Wednesday marked two years since Yemi and Andy’s children last held a conversation with their father—two full years in which he has had minimal contact with the outside world and has been stuck in a prison dubbed “Ethiopia’s gulag”. Andy now faces the prospect of another Christmas behind bars, without seeing or hearing from his beloved wife and three children.

In closing, I would like to draw a parallel with the situation of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe. Only last week, I met her husband Richard. After speaking with him, I could not stop thinking about how their family’s Christmas will not be celebrated. Nazanin and Richard have a young child, Gabriella. It is absolutely heartbreaking to think what they are all going through. The hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Tulip Siddiq) has been a great advocate for her constituent, and I hope that the Government can assist further with the case. At a time when families around the world are coming together, the families of Nazanin and Andy could not be further apart. The Government must do more for them, and they must be willing to demand their immediate release.

[Robert Flello (in the Chair)]

I remind hon. Members that I will call the Front-Bench speakers at 10.30 am.

Red Wednesday Campaign

Robert Flello Excerpts

Tuesday 15th November 2016 Westminster Hall

[Robert Flello (in the Chair)]

We have an extra 15 minutes for this debate, given the earlier suspension.

[Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the Red Wednesday campaign against religious persecution.

It is a pleasure to speak on this very important subject under your chairmanship, Mr Flello. All over the world, thousands of people are persecuted because of their faith, through false imprisonment, physical and mental torture, rape, slavery and, more subtly, discrimination in education and employment. For some, their faith can cost them their lives.

In partnership with the charity Aid to the Church in Need, on Wednesday 23 November Westminster abbey and Westminster cathedral will be lighting up their iconic buildings in red. Other faiths will join in that act of solidarity as a tribute to the people worldwide who are suffering injustice and risking their lives for their faith. I have written to Bolton Council to ask it to join this movement and light up Bolton’s historic town hall in red on 23 November to promote solidarity with those who are suffering. Aid to the Church in Need is also encouraging smaller, more personal acts of recognition on that day that everyone can take part in—for example, simply wearing red for Red Wednesday or using the hashtag #RedWednesday on social media to raise awareness of the plight of others. Having greater awareness and understanding will help to ensure that we never take our freedoms for granted.

This year, I joined colleagues from both sides of the House on a visit to northern Iraq to meet persecuted Christians fleeing the terrorist group Islamic State. In Mosul and elsewhere, Christians have been systematically targeted and the noon symbol, the Arabic equivalent of the Latin N for Nasara or Nazarene, has been daubed on their homes. They have been given the grim choice of paying the jizya tax, converting to Islam or being put to death. Many chose to flee, especially when their money had run out and they could no longer pay the extortion. That persecution, along with that of the Yazidi and many Muslims, led last April to the debate, granted by the Backbench Business Committee and led by my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce), on recognition of the genocide perpetrated by ISIL in the region.

The Christian community in Iraq is one of the oldest in the world, dating back to the first century. There were thought to be 1.5 million Christians in Iraq before the invasion in 2003. However, that number is reported to have fallen now to about 230,000. Although many people have been persecuted and have fled the region, that figure shows the targeted nature of the persecution and, if it carries on in that direction, we will soon see the end of Christianity in much of the middle east.

We know that there is a civil war in Syria and Iraq, but sometimes the religious context is overlooked or obscured by more dramatic events. When we met His Holiness Ignatius Aphrem II, the Syriac Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch, he gave us a sense of how overlooked many people feel. He used the example of the protection given to eight frogs in Australia. The pond in which the frogs lived was the subject of a huge local campaign, and a small fortune was spent to save them. He said that, in comparison, many Christians in Iraq felt ignored. Of course we have to protect our natural environment, but I am sure that many colleagues would be as concerned as I am about the scarcity of letters and emails on religious persecution compared with, say, badgers and bees.

Aleppo and Syria

Robert Flello Excerpts

Tuesday 11th October 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Mitchell]

The hon. Lady makes an extremely powerful point. We cannot do this alone. We must use Britain’s outstanding connections, not least through our diplomatic reach, our membership of NATO, our relationship with America and our centrality in the European firmament—Brexit notwithstanding.

[Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)]

I am most grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, not only for securing this debate but for allowing so many interventions. Would it not be appropriate for the Government to bring forward a debate asking this House to put forward its views on Russia’s behaviour not only in Aleppo but in previous situations? We need the Government to lead on such a debate, so that the House can send out the very clear message that we are watching what Russia is doing and will not forget what it is doing, and that, when it comes to it, we will see those responsible answering for their war crimes.

[Mr Mitchell]

I think the hon. Gentleman would agree that, by having this three-hour debate today, we are moving some way in that direction.

I have a number of specific questions for the Foreign Secretary to address when he answers this debate. First, he has said that the UK is taking the lead on sanctions on Russia. Will he tell the House what steps the Foreign Office has taken towards increasing bilateral or EU sanctions on Russia itself? Secondly, there are plans for a new addition to the Nord Stream gas pipeline running from Russia to western Europe—Nord Stream 2—allowing Russia to bypass transit countries and, therefore, transit costs in eastern Europe. Will the Foreign Office be working with our east European allies to block the new pipeline?

Daesh: Genocide of Minorities

Robert Flello Excerpts

Wednesday 20th April 2016 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op)]

I refer hon. Members to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. Between 2005 and 2010, I had the privilege of working for the fantastic Aegis Trust, which works both to commemorate and to prevent genocide.

It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce), who is a distinguished Member of the House and a member of the International Development Committee, as well as a campaigner on human rights, particularly those of religious and other minorities. I agreed with everything that she said, which I believe has strong cross-party support. Like her, I thank the Backbench Business Committee for allowing the debate to happen. I hope that the hon. Lady will press the motion to a Division because we have an opportunity to send a really strong message from all parties that we believe that what is happening is a genocide and that the international system has a duty and responsibility to act.

In both Iraq and Syria, ethnic and other minorities have been in severe danger since the emergence of Daesh, and we have seen this once diverse region witnessing mass killings, rapes, forced conversions, and the destruction of shrines, temples and churches in the region. The hon. Member for Congleton spoke about the meeting she convened and chaired last night. I, too, listened to the powerful speech from Ekhlas, a young woman who has been through hell—something that no young person should ever have to go through. Sadly, this was not the first time that many of us have heard such testimony. Earlier this year, a meeting was convened by the hon. Member for Newark (Robert Jenrick), who chairs the all-party group on the prevention of genocide, and the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Brendan O'Hara) at which we heard from another teenage Yazidi woman, Nadia Murad, who had also been captured and imprisoned by Daesh. Nadia told us that she had been beaten, tortured and raped before, thankfully, she managed to escape. Her story shocked us in the same way that Ekhlas’s story shocked us last night. Since her escape, Nadia has spoken here in Parliament, at the UN and with various Governments, including our own, simply to raise awareness of the plight of the Yazidis in general, and Yazidi women in particular.

[Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)]

I join others in highlighting the importance of this debate. Surely to goodness, though, making these poor people go through it all again when they have to provide their testimony to organisations seems harsh when those organisations should not need such persuasion. They should be capable of realising what is happening without needing to put people through the pain of having to repeat themselves over and over again.

[Stephen Twigg]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right that the evidence is there. I suppose that human testimony provides an important additional dimension, but he is right that the evidence is extremely well documented. It is estimated that more than 3,000 Yazidi women are being held against their will by Daesh.

A glance at the history of this region should surely lead us to learn some lessons today. A century ago, the Armenians and Assyrians suffered a genocide. I absolutely agree with the hon. Member for Congleton that the policy of Daesh towards the Yazidi, Christians and other minorities amounts to genocide.

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[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

I was particularly struck by the contribution from my right hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms). If we do appoint a global envoy, may I suggest that my right hon. Friend’s name be put forward? He held a similar position under Tony Blair, and I can think of no one better qualified. Much praise has already been given to the hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce), and we should place on record the fact that in the short time she has been in the House, she has won for herself a reputation for great courage and determination as a defender of the weak, the poor and the defenceless. She has earned a great reputation, and she has done an enormous amount of good on these matters. She is ably followed by the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) in that regard. It is an honour to be speaking in a debate instigated by the hon. Lady. I am also glad to see two of the more humane Government Ministers on the Treasury Bench today. I am confident that they will respond in a way that reflects the emotion that is being felt right across the Chamber.

The hon. Member for Congleton listed the litany of horrors that we have heard, both last night and on so many other occasions. It seems almost otiose to repeat them, but I shall recount one chilling and almost unbelievably brutal incident. A group of captured young men were lined up and made to strip to the waist and hold their arms up. Those who had no hair under their arms were considered young enough to be taken away, indoctrinated and turned into bombers or jihadists; those who showed signs of puberty or maturity were shot. The fact that anyone can act with such callous, utter brutality in this day and age is almost beyond belief. The fact that they do it in the name of a religion, the name of which means peace, is absolutely unforgivable, impossible to contemplate and utterly inexcusable.

To anyone out there who thinks that this ghastly, nihilist death cult can in any way triumph, may I say what a pleasure it is to see the Palmyra arch being erected in Trafalgar Square as a physical demonstration of our commitment? Daesh can crush, destroy, kill, rape or maim, but it will never, ever win. It will not be allowed to win, because if it does, darkness will descend on the earth and we will be in a terrifying place.

The motion is extremely well crafted and beautifully phrased—I do not want to heap overmuch praise on the hon. Member for Congleton, because she is already embarrassed—and using the definition within it is incredibly important. We are quite rightly concentrating on the horrific circumstances of the Yazidis, but let us not forget that Daesh has probably killed more Muslims than people from any other religious or ethnic group. It does not in any way defend or protect its co-religionists; it slaughters indiscriminately.

[Robert Flello]

I gently take my hon. Friend to task for saying “indiscriminately”. Daesh does kill indiscriminately when it comes to some groups, but it absolutely discriminates when it comes to Christians and Yazidis, because it wants to exterminate them and completely eradicate them from the world.

[Stephen Pound]

My hon. Friend quite correctly takes me to task. I meant that Daesh’s slaughter was universal, but it does of course target some groups specifically.

At least one hon. Member present has been with me to northern Iraq, actually broken bread with members of the Assyrian Christian community, and seen the lives that they lived. Their lives were always difficult, but they were able to live and practise their faith in something approaching peace, even under the dark days of Saddam Hussein. To see those people now being hunted down, specifically discriminated against and slaughtered on the grounds of their faith is utterly chilling and terrifying. Is it not extraordinary how many of them refuse to recant or recuse, and how many say, “This is our faith”? In some cases, they die for that faith. That is extraordinary and testament to the courage that still exists. As for a specific genocide, the Jewish people are also being destroyed. The magnificent, huge Jewish community in Iraq that did so much for the country is being specifically hunted down and destroyed. We must never forget that whole groups of people are suffering.

This comes down to the word “genocide”. I have had so many debates on the Floor of the House about the Armenian genocide of 1915. I call it genocide, but I appreciate that the House chooses not to call the massacre of nearly 2 million Armenians a genocide because the word was not promulgated until 1948. In reality, however, we know it was genocide. To deny that recognition through the use of the word to a group of people who suffered that way is a double discrimination. It is a double death, in many ways. Let us call this what it is: this is genocide, and Daesh must not be allowed to triumph and win.

What can we do in this House? We must of course make the reference to the United Nations, but I want to speak beyond this House for a moment. We are not in a hermetically sealed bubble here; we are the sounding board of the nation. People are watching us and listening to us, and it is possible that somewhere in the dark places of our cities and towns there are people who are tempted by this death cult. There may be people who, as an excuse for their own inadequacies or some compensation for their failures, like the idea that they can go and die gloriously for this twisted philosophy. I want to speak to those outside this Chamber for a second. If anyone watching thinks that the great religion of Islam is calling them to go and slaughter children or unborn babies, to rape, to loot or to murder, read the holy Koran, the hadiths and the surahs. They will not find those words in the holy book. If anyone out there huddled away in darkness actually feels tempted for a moment to leave this country, their city, or our community to go and kill before they die, please think. They have the gift of life at the present time. Hold that gift of life. It is too precious to throw away, as are the lives of others; their lives matter just as much.

Why are Christians, Muslims, Assyrian Christians, the Shabak, and Jews being persecuted in this way? What have they done to bring this Armageddon down on their heads? They have not in any way threatened forced conversions on people who subscribe to the ISIS-Daesh philosophy. This is a war of aggression that must be described by the one word—the only word—that describes it today: genocide. This House must speak to not just fellow legislators or the United Nations, but all those out there who are thinking about the issue, and who may be even remotely tempted to move into an area so dark, deep and desperate that only the worst and most serious word, one which describes the ultimate crime, accurately describes the full horror of what is happening to communities in Syria and Iraq. We all know what that word is. Let us be united in this House, and hopefully outside, and say that what is happening is genocide, and has to be recognised as such.

Oral Answers to Questions

Robert Flello Excerpts

Tuesday 24th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hammond]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Clearly there is agreement across the EU that we need to address these issues upstream, and one of the most pressing upstream challenges is the civil war in Syria. As I have already said once this afternoon, the Prime Minister will set out our comprehensive approach to that problem—military, political and humanitarian—on Thursday.

[Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)]

What part of the discussions at the EU Foreign Affairs Council has centred on the very real genocide that is happening, including in UNHCR refugee camps in Lebanon, Jordan and the Kurdish autonomous region, by radicalised Islamists linked to Daesh who are killing people—killing Christians—in those camps and driving them out of them?

[Mr Hammond]

I have to tell the hon. Gentleman candidly that that has not been the focus of the discussion in the Foreign Affairs Council about the migration crisis, but I am aware of concerns about what is going on in the camps. The UK’s approach is to invest heavily in providing safe and appropriate facilities for refugees in the region so they can return to Syria in due course, and we will continue to advocate that approach and encourage our EU partners to put more money into that effort.

Dog Meat Trade

Robert Flello Excerpts

Thursday 5th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House calls for an immediate end to dog meat trade cruelty; supports the Humane Society lnternational’s campaign to end the dog meat trade by working with government officials and local organisations in Thailand, Vietnam, the Philippines and China to raise public awareness and strengthen laws related to this trade; and calls on the Chinese government and Yulin and Guangxi officials to stop the Yulin dog meat festival where thousands of dogs are being cruelly bound, confined, trucked and slaughtered for meat.

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak about the cruel and barbaric trade in dog meat, which takes place most notably in China and south-east Asia, and I thank the Backbench Business Committee for granting it. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) on his work in securing this debate before his promotion to the Front Bench, as well as many other Members in the last Parliament and this one. I also pay tribute to organisations such as Humane Society International, World Protection for Dogs and Cats in the Meat Trade, the Kennel Club, AnimalsAsia, and Soi Dog Foundation—to name but a few—and to the celebrities and public figures who have given their time and support.

It is impossible to say how many dogs are consumed in the dog meat trade each year, but Humane Society International estimates that about 20 million are killed in China, 2 million in South Korea and 5 million in Vietnam, with many of the dogs being sourced from neighbouring countries, such as Thailand, Laos and Cambodia.

[Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that there are two aspects to tackling this problem—first, persuading some countries to make the dog meat trade illegal; and secondly, putting pressure on countries where the trade is illegal to enforce the law?

[Robert Flello]

Absolutely. I wholeheartedly endorse my hon. Friend’s comments.

I am not a vegetarian, and as revolting as I find even the thought of eating a companion animal, I am not seeking to outlaw dog meat simply because I do not like it. However, this is not the humane slaughter of animals for meat in an abattoir, but a process in which animals are taken from their homes—often family pets are stolen—housed and transported in disgusting conditions in which they can often barely move and killed in the most excruciatingly cruel and painful ways.

I warn anyone listening that many of the things they will hear are deeply upsetting and disturbing. A quick search on the internet on this subject turns up some of the most graphic and horrifying images of animal cruelty anyone is ever likely to see. The methods used to kill the animals defy belief. Perhaps most sickeningly, there remains a belief that to produce the most tender and tasty dog meat, it should contain a high level of adrenaline and that the dog should therefore be stressed and fearful at the moment it is killed. It is common for the animal to be bludgeoned, hanged or electrocuted, and, in some cases, for the animal to be thrown fully conscious into a drum of boiling water—anything that ensures maximum suffering.

[Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)]

I commend the hon. Gentleman for shining a light on international barbarism within the dog meat trade, but does he agree it would be a missed opportunity not to show a level of introspection on the cruelty and barbarism in the UK towards animals, whether it be dog baiting, badger baiting, dog fighting or, as the hon. the Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Richard Arkless) has recently highlighted, the puppy farm trade between Northern Ireland, including my constituency, and his constituency in Scotland and the rest of the UK?

[Robert Flello]

As hon. Members will know, I secured a debate last September on the puppy trade, and I certainly accept we need to get our own house in order, but, although what we do in this country is appalling, what goes on elsewhere takes it to a whole new depth of despair and disgust.

[Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)]

I would like to thank my hon. Friend not just for launching this debate, but for all the work he does on animal welfare. We do have high standards in this country, notwithstanding some abuses that go on. What does my hon. Friend think can be done at the Government level to ensure that countries that allow these abhorrent practices to take place begin to curtail them?

[Robert Flello]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, and I will return to that point as my speech develops; I am conscious that I have only a few more minutes left.

It is important to note the cruel and inhumane conditions and the way in which these dogs are treated. When a slaughterhouse is used, the conditions are virtually without exception filthy, and dogs already in the poorest of health are waiting in areas covered in blood or faeces watching their fellow animals die. Investigations have shown that a large number of dogs in these facilities were wearing collars, suggesting dogs had been stolen rather than bred for the purpose of meat. It is likely, however, that those animals killed at official slaughterhouses represent just a small percentage of those killed. The vast majority of the killing occurs elsewhere—in even more unsanitary and inhumane conditions.

In some ways, I am loth to tell Members about the conditions, but we do ourselves and these dogs a disservice if I fail to touch on them. For example, families will often purchase dogs to slaughter at home. These petrified creatures are often tied to the back of cars and motorbikes, and dragged home barely alive. This is not an exaggeration; it is normal daily practice.

These dogs are not “farmed” in any sense that a sane farmer would recognise. Numerous reports suggest that, rather than raise dogs for consumption, violent gangs travel around stealing much-loved family pets. In a typical case, four trucks were stopped in Thailand carrying more than 1,000 dogs out of the country, 119 of which had already died of suffocation. Those who transport these dogs across hundreds of miles from country to country have only one concern: pack as many dogs into the trucks as possible.

It is hard to describe the horrors these animals face from overcrowding, lack of food and water, heat and disease—barely surviving in their own waste. The thieves often poison the dogs in order to steal them and sell them to traders or restaurants, and they have no problem with turning their weapons—poison darts, crossbows or machetes—on the dogs’ owners if they are challenged or caught. This is big business, and the health and wellbeing of the animals or their owners is of no consequence to these people. Indeed, in some areas of China, up to 70% of villagers have lost a dog, with the majority believing that it was taken by a gang.

Now if this sickening cruelty is not enough to persuade Governments to ban this evil trade and enforce the laws, perhaps the health risks will persuade them. So unregulated is the dog meat industry that there is a huge risk to human beings from diseases such as cholera and rabies, with the latter found to be present in slaughterhouses and markets in China, Vietnam and Indonesia.

The World Health Organisation has raised serious concerns about the health risks to people eating dog meat. AnimalsAsia found that around 60% of village groups in China had vaccinated at best one in 10 of their pet dogs against rabies. It is thought that the dog meat trade now represents one of the biggest factors in the spread of rabies around the world. Investigations have uncovered a complete lack of proper vaccination or breeding records for the dogs that have even the most rudimentary breeding facilities. There is no quarantining—effectively nothing other than attempting to maximise profit.

It is hard reading, but I recommend the report commissioned by AnimalsAsia, which was based on four years research. It makes clear the truth behind the industry. It shows that the number of farms producing dog meat is far lower than advertised, with many dog-breeding companies referring to the same few companies; meaningful farming barely exists. To quote the report, the

“companies that claim to breed and raise their own dogs are seen as a source of ‘trustworthy’ dog meat by the public, but...not a single dog meat company’s dogs are from their own breeding farms. The dogs are all acquired rural dogs”.

That is a damning indictment of the industry for anyone who claims that it is in any way regulated or that a dog meat breeding or farming system is in place. Also in the words of AnimalsAsia:

“Our investigations strongly point to what everybody familiar with the industry has long suspected—that the vast majority of China’s dog meat comes from stolen companion animals and that misinformation and illegality is rife at every stage of the...supply chain.”

That is the reality of the issue we are dealing with here.

To be clear, this is issue is not just about an aversion to eating dog meat. I am not entirely unsympathetic to the argument that this is a tradition dating back centuries, and that dogs have a very different cultural role in many Asian societies. I do not believe that it is generally this House’s role to tell societies abroad what they should or should not do based on western sensibilities, but we cannot allow tradition to be used as a smokescreen for practices that are barbaric, cruel, inhumane and disgusting—any word we could pick would not come close to what we are discussing here today. The link between the consumption of dog meat nowadays and traditions in those countries is extremely tenuous, to say the least.

Let me briefly draw the House’s attention to the annual Yulin dog meat festival in China. At least 10,000 dogs are consumed during the 10-day festival, which began only a few years ago—largely, believe it or not, as a way of attracting tourists.

It may seem that there is little we can do to persuade the countries that I have mentioned to take action—after all, many of them have dire human rights records, so there may seem to be no point in requiring them to be kinder to animals—but that is not my view. Our country has led on animal welfare issues all over the world, and this issue should be no different. The Government can put pressure on those countries.

South Korea wants to be seen as an open, democratic, western-friendly society, but if that is to happen, it needs to start acting properly and behaving itself. Tens of thousands of holidaymakers from our shores go to Thailand each year. I understand that the law enforcement agencies there are now using DNA testing equipment to check the source of meat and make sure that dog meat is not being passed off as legal meat, but Thailand needs to do more: it needs to stop the trade with other countries. My constituency is in Stoke-on-Trent, and a large amount of ceramic ware is made in Indonesia. We need to ensure that countries like Indonesia understand just what potential British purchasers of their goods will or will not do when they learn what happens in those countries.

I hope—indeed, I know—that the Government will arrive at some positive conclusions, and they have uttered positive words in the past, but we need more than words now: we need some action. We should take heart from the fact that in China—which undoubtedly presents the biggest problem that we face in tackling the dog meat trade—members of the expanding middle class are beginning to speak out, and it appears that young people are beginning to shy away.

[Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey) (SNP)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Robert Flello]

If the hon. Gentleman does not mind, I will not, because of the time constraints.

The Chinese authorities have not yet reached the stage of banning the Yulin festival, but, quite rightly, they are clearly somewhat embarrassed, and in 2011 a similar festival was banned in Zhejiang. We also know that the Chinese are happy to take action on other issues.

I hoped to make many further points, but I am afraid that I shall not be able to do so. Let me end by saying that, as we all know, dogs guide the blind. Dogs can help to detect cancer. Dogs help trauma patients. Dogs help children with learning disabilities. Dogs are used all over the world—and that includes China—to find victims of earthquakes. Dogs help us in many, many ways. Today’s edition of the Daily Mirror contains a piece about a dog that is part of a canine unit; the quote from the dog handler says it all. What dogs are not for is the barbaric, disgusting, cruel, vicious evil of being put on someone’s plate after being treated in the most horrible ways that the House, in its worst nightmares, could ever imagine.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (James Duddridge)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello) on securing this debate and I thank all those present in the Chamber for their contributions. From what we have heard in the Chamber today, dog meat consumption and its trade is a matter of strong interest to the British public and to this Parliament.

For many people in the UK this is understandably an emotive issue. We have a strong tradition here in the UK of keeping dogs as pets, and I, like others, consider it anathema that dogs should be eaten under any circumstances. However, as has been mentioned by others in a balanced debate, it is important to remember that in some parts of the world dog meat has been a traditional food for centuries. In a small number of countries its sale and consumption are legal, and it is still eaten today, as we have heard. That is not to say that we should not try to influence these cultural norms. Dog consumption in some countries is down, and even in areas where dogs had previously been consumed by people, they are increasingly seen as domestic pets, as they are primarily in this country.

We have heard here today and in media reports and correspondence with constituents the dreadful conditions in which dogs are kept and transported, and in particular the ways in which they are slaughtered. All that is truly horrifying and, as we have heard, it is difficult to find words to convey how horrific we find this industry.

The dog meat industry in Asia is routinely accused of poor treatment of animals during slaughter, and this disgusting treatment is clearly unacceptable. This Government take animal cruelty extremely seriously and we are committed to improving animal welfare standards globally, not just in the UK. There can be no place for cruel and inhumane practices anywhere in the modern world. The UK has proved that it is prepared to tackle cultural norms, particularly when it comes to the consumption and use of animals.

To draw a parallel, the UK is a world leader in promoting animal welfare generally overseas, for both domestic and wild animals. We are the architects of the 2014 illegal wildlife trade conference and work on illegal wildlife trade. Much of the focus of our relationships with Asian countries has been on discussing the consumption of animals, and I am sure that will have some cross-over to dog meat consumption in the future. As we become more successful in getting the message across about the illegal wildlife trade in elephant or rhino horn or tiger, perhaps we can extend that to the way people think about the consumption of dogs.

Before I update the House on what we are able to do on a country by country basis, I shall touch on some of the points made during the debate. Introducing the debate, the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South urged the Government to work more closely with international health organisations. I am happy to make a commitment to consider a review of how we interact on this issue with various international organisations, specifically on the issue of health. In comments on other speeches, I will explain why I think that is so important.

The hon. Gentleman congratulated organisations that are working across Asia to change perceptions—in some cases very brave people standing up for animal welfare, trying to change the cultural norms while living and working in Asia. I add my congratulations. He urged me, on behalf of the Government, to take action, not just to come out with words. Sometimes it is difficult to have clear action plans, and nudging things forward is sometimes a success, but I am happy to write to all our ambassadors in the area to review what they are doing in relation to the dog meat trade and what is appropriate within that country. By “appropriate”, I mean what is likely to get the results that Members of the House and the Government want.

[Robert Flello]

I welcome that commitment to work with the World Health Organisation and similar agencies. In writing to embassies, the Minister may wish to stress to those embassies how the British public might view the countries concerned when they book their holidays or purchase ceramic items.

--- Later in debate ---

[Robert Flello]

We have had a short and constrained debate, but I think that all the important points have been made. I welcome the commitment that the Minister has given and appreciate his positive response; yes, they were words, but I got the sense that there is action behind them. I wish to make one point in winding up. I will happily debate culture with anybody, because it is very important, but slicing limbs off living animals or burning their skin off with a blowtorch while they are still alive is not culture; it is barbarism.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House calls for an immediate end to dog meat trade cruelty; supports the Humane Society lnternational’s campaign to end the dog meat trade by working with government officials and local organisations in Thailand, Vietnam, the Philippines and China to raise public awareness and strengthen laws related to this trade; and calls on the Chinese government and Yulin and Guangxi officials to stop the Yulin dog meat festival where thousands of dogs are being cruelly bound, confined, trucked and slaughtered for meat.

Oral Answers to Questions

Robert Flello Excerpts

Tuesday 14th July 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lidington]

Through Department for International Development programmes, we are tackling the root causes by trying to promote greater prosperity in the African countries from which so many of these people are travelling. We are also working actively with both European and African partners to disrupt the work of the people traffickers who exploit vulnerable people in the most appalling way.

[Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)]

I know that we are about to hear from the Home Secretary, but what is the Foreign Office doing to put pressure on the French authorities and tell them that it is not good enough to take somebody from Calais and release them a mile down the road without fingerprinting or checking them in any way?

[Mr Lidington]

Our ambassador and his team in Paris and Foreign Office Ministers have been extremely active in talking to our French counterparts. We clearly work extremely closely with Home Office colleagues, and co-operation between the United Kingdom and France is essential to bring to an end the disruption at Calais.

European Union Referendum Bill

Robert Flello Excerpts

Tuesday 9th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Hilary Benn]

I will give way one more time at this stage, then I will make progress.

[Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend, who is extremely generous with his time. A number of constituents have already been in touch with me, as the House might imagine, about the issue, and some have raised the question itself. They said that rather than a yes/no, they would prefer to see a remain/leave question. Does my right hon. Friend have a view on that?

[Hilary Benn]

My view is that the question is perfectly clear and very simple. I do not think that anyone who goes into the polling station on the day, whenever it is, will not understand the consequence of voting either way.

As well the negotiations taking place in Europe, it is clear that an equally important set of negotiations is taking place within the Conservative party on this subject, and they are not going terribly well, are they? We have been asking the Prime Minister for his list of negotiating demands and we are still waiting. We are still not clear whether there will be treaty change or not. This week, the Prime Minister apparently told journalists at the G7 that he had decided that he would succeed in the negotiations and therefore all Ministers would be expected to support the line. We know that that did not go down too well with certain Ministers, who came face to face with the prospect of having to choose between their jobs and their Euroscepticism.

Then, lo and behold, faced with a choice between backing the national interest or the Conservative interest, the Prime Minister did what he always does—give in to his party. The explanation was that his remarks had been “over-interpreted”. I do not know whether this was a case of lost in translation, but the newspapers today were pretty disobliging about the Prime Minister’s decision, with references to “Downing St chaos” in The Daily Telegraph, “weak and uncertain” in The Times, and “great EU-turn” in the Daily Mail.

We are none the wiser as to where the Government stand or what the answers are to those questions, so for the benefit of the House let me try to summarise where it seems the Government have got to on our membership of the EU. The Prime Minister is probably for in, but he cannot say definitely that he is in or out because a lot of his MPs are for out, unless they can be persuaded to be in. Meanwhile, the Foreign Secretary, who used to be leaning out, now appears to be leaning in, while other members of the Cabinet who are for out read yesterday that they would be out unless they campaigned for in. Now it seems they might be in even though, after all, they are probably for out. In, out, in, out—it is the EU Tory hokey-cokey, a complete mess.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian Austin]

Absolutely; without question.

I can see the benefits of our being part of the world’s biggest single market and free trade area—it has made a big difference to our economy, particularly in the west midlands, where the car industry is of huge importance—but I am worried about the impact of freedom of movement on low-paid jobs and the effect of high levels of immigration on public services.

[Robert Flello]

I am enjoying my hon. Friend’s good contribution. During the election campaign and over the past 10 years, my constituents have time and again raised with me their concerns about the levelling down of wages when somebody comes along from another European country and about employers, rather than embracing the opportunity to widen skills, using it as an opportunity to drive down wages.

[Ian Austin]

That has been one of the impacts of our membership, and I know that my hon. Friend’s constituents, like mine, will be very concerned about it.

I can see the benefits of membership, and I can see the costs. I think that Britain could survive outside—of course we could—but there would be massive risks, not least, as I said earlier, for the car industry. I think that that is where the majority of the British people are on this issue. Outside here, most people are not ideological or dogmatic; they are reasonable and pragmatic and hold mainstream views. They have a balanced view and can see the benefits and the cost on both sides of the argument.

The no campaign has to think carefully about how it presents a positive view. I do not think that the apocalyptic, doom-laden vision of Britain as a member of the EU that I have heard in speeches this afternoon will strike a chord with anybody out there. I suspect that if the yes campaign could pick a leader for the no campaign, they would choose Nigel Farage. He is clearly a good communicator and a charismatic leader—winning 4 million votes and coming third in the election was a huge achievement—but he is not regarded by most people as pragmatic or someone who holds balanced, mainstream views on Britain’s membership of the EU.

In 1975, the campaign to stay in was led by leading mainstream figures from both the major parties and the business community, and that had a huge impact. The campaign to come out was led by people on the extreme left of the Labour party and the extreme right of the Conservative party, and it was unable to show that it could speak for the reasonable, mainstream majority. I think that the British people want a clear analysis of all the issues so that they can make their decision once and for all, and that needs two mainstream, reasonable campaigns putting the respective arguments.

The debate about our relationship with the EU should start right now, not after the Prime Minister has completed his negotiations. We should be involving the British people in that debate directly and listening to their views. We live in an age when people want to be engaged and to know that politicians will listen and take their views into account. I would like Ministers to involve people in the debate by commissioning a body such as the National Centre for Social Research to construct a detailed survey to find out exactly what the British people think about the benefits and costs of our membership of Europe, looking in detail at the jobs that depend on it, the impact and benefits of immigration and the emerging questions of defence and foreign policy. Knowing what people think would strengthen the Prime Minister’s hand in his negotiations. I am doing that over the summer in Dudley. I will be sending out a detailed but balanced survey to 30,000 households and inviting them to a dozen or so public meetings to discuss the issue, as we did last year on immigration.

I welcome this debate on our membership of the EU, but it has to be carried out properly. It has to be a fair debate that starts right now and involves all the British people. The truth is that people in places such as Dudley feel they have not had their say on the EU, and we should start this debate by listening to them. Let us use it to show there is a new way of doing politics, through a proper, serious debate and a real conversation. Let us use this debate to rebuild public trust in politics. I say to both sides: listen to and trust the people, and they will respond.