Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and Information Systems) Bill

Pete Wishart Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 6th January 2026 Commons Chamber

[Pete Wishart (Perth and Kinross-shire) (SNP)]

We support this Bill and its efforts to tackle cyber-security, but it does not address the mass unauthorised scraping of trusted news content by generative AI systems. That content, as the Minister knows, is often taken without consent or compensation. As the Bill progresses, will he be prepared to look at some measures—maybe something like a bot register where people have to declare their intent when it comes to this type of activity? Will the Government look at this seriously so that news can be protected in this new environment?

[Ian Murray]

The hon. Gentleman is ingenious in the way in which he uses interventions on pieces of legislation. I know AI copyright is close to his heart as a former, or perhaps current, professional musician and, indeed, one of the key musicians in MP4—let’s not push that to a Division! AI copyright is, of course, a key issue that the Government are looking at. The Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology and the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport are working closely together on this issue. I think the legislation means that there has to be a report to Parliament in March—I am sure the hon. Gentleman will be very interested in that. We are bringing together the industry and tech companies to try to find a way through that particular issue. We know that it is a huge issue. It is not in the scope of this Bill, which has been kept very tight to deal with these specific and serious cyber-security issues.

As we know, the first duty of Government is to keep people safe. The question is how precisely the Bill will achieve that goal. The answer is simple. The UK’s main cyber-rules—the Network and Information Systems Regulations 2018, or the NIS regime—were first introduced seven years ago and have not been updated since. Those rules require operators of essential services such as energy, water and hospitals, as well as some digital service providers such as online search engines, to take steps to protect the services they provide and the data they hold from cyber-threats.

As Members might expect, a lot has changed in the cyber-landscape in the past eight years. We have had the rise of AI, which cyber-criminals are using to their advantage. Data centres have become a firm fixture of modern life, and we want to see more of them. Since the rules were introduced, criminals tactics have evolved to exploit loopholes in the regulations, as they did in the attack on the NHS supplier that I mentioned, which revealed how hackers can target third parties, such as IT companies, or supply chains as a back-door way to bringing down a wider system. As always, the story is one of technology and cyber-threats moving faster than policymakers can possibly keep up with.

Oral Answers to Questions

Pete Wishart Excerpts

Thursday 27th November 2025 Commons Chamber

[Lisa Nandy]

My hon. Friend is right to lament the decline in the number of pupils across England taking arts subjects, and this Government are determined to turn that around. That is why the Education Secretary and I have worked closely together. My hon. Friend will have seen the announcement she made about a broader, richer curriculum for all pupils, alongside the work I am doing to rebuild a broader, richer set of opportunities outside of the classroom. Under the last Government, enrichment was erased from both our classrooms and our communities. Under this Government, that is going to change.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and Kinross-shire) (SNP)]

UK Music’s excellent “This is Music” report found that it has become increasingly difficult for new musical artists to be heard and for careers to be built. Recompense through streaming services is minuscule and artist remuneration a real issue. On the live side, Brexit has made touring the EU almost impossible, and grassroots venues continue to close. Does the Secretary of State recognise that without meaningful action, we risk creating a music industry where only the privileged and rich can afford to build a career?

[Lisa Nandy]

I very much share that assessment, and we are determined that that is going to change. The hon. Member will be aware of the work that my right hon. Friend the Minister for Creative Industries, Media and Arts has been doing on the grassroots music levy. That is a voluntary levy. We hope the industry will step up and meet our target of 50% of all ticket sales imposing that levy in order to support grassroots music venues by the end of the year, but we have been really clear with the industry that if that does not happen, we will intervene and use statutory powers if necessary.

On the specific issue of EU touring, the hon. Member will be aware that my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office is pursuing that as a priority with the European Union, and we are confident that we will be able to build a better deal for not just our music artists but music artists right across Europe.

BBC Leadership

Pete Wishart Excerpts

Tuesday 11th November 2025 Commons Chamber

[Lisa Nandy]

I thank my hon. Friend for the letter that I received earlier today. I have discussed the delay in issuing an apology with the BBC and been given a full account by the chairman of the board. It is not for me to answer on behalf of the BBC, but she will have heard that the Select Committee intends to call members of that BBC committee, and I am sure the Select Committee will raise that question with them.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and Kinross-shire) (SNP)]

Debates about partiality are something that we in Scotland are more than familiar with—particularly those in the 50% on the side of Scottish independence—but these sustained attacks on the BBC by forces that seek to undermine it and mould it into their instrument must be resisted. Surely that could be assisted by the sacking of Robbie Gibb. Will the Secretary of State assure me that with any changes in leadership, BBC Scotland’s editorial independence will be maintained and it will continue to serve us according to our national debate and our political culture?

[Lisa Nandy]

The hon. Member will have heard the comments I made about the legal threshold that must be met for any changes in leadership. The Government appoint the chair of the BBC; we do not appoint individual staff members. The board member that he mentioned was appointed by the last Conservative Government and his term was renewed just weeks before the general election, so I cannot take the action that he requests.

The hon. Member mentioned the nations and regions, which are close to my heart as well. Through the charter review process, we will seek to ensure that the BBC’s direction can be driven through its nations and regions and that people in every part of the UK can see a fair share of content that reflects their lives, their communities and their contribution.

Mandatory Digital ID

Pete Wishart Excerpts

Tuesday 21st October 2025 Westminster Hall

[Pete Wishart (Perth and Kinross-shire) (SNP)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the matter of mandatory digital ID.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship once again, Mr Turner. I did not know I was so popular today. I am delighted to see so many colleagues joining us in this short debate. I warmly welcome the Minister to his new role. We were shocked and appalled by his unjustified defenestration at the Scotland Office. We were energetic supporters of the “get Ian a job—any job” campaign, so we are delighted to see him here in his rightful place today. It has to be asked, though: who has he upset in the last few weeks to be landed with this particular poisoned chalice? But here we go again. It has taken 20 years, but ID cards are back, this time in a shiny new digital format, turbocharged by all the new features of modern technology.

Tony Blair famously tried to introduce ID cards back in the 2000s before being forced to abandon them by a fantastic campaign by civil liberty campaigners, Members of this House, and the millions of ordinary UK citizens who simply refused to have ID cards foisted upon them. But they are back. Like a spectre from the political grave, ID cards are with us once again. It is just possible that Tony Blair might reach his ultimate aim and aspiration of getting ID cards back, only this time in the form of his proxy, the current Prime Minister.

I had the misfortune of being around back in the 2000s, along with the right hon. Member for Goole and Pocklington (David Davis), who is sitting behind me. We were part of the campaign that defeated Tony Blair at that point, and we look forward to defeating him again. The tone of the debate seems eerily familiar. Once again we have a Government earnestly assuring us that digital ID is a benign, benevolent scheme designed purely to make life easier for the general public. They talk about the Tesco clubcard and never having to find your utility bills ever again, as though it is nothing more than a boarding pass. It is a sort of, “Do not worry your silly little heads about this mass data collection or our new-found ability to monitor your every move. We are the UK Government; of course you can trust us.”

Well, we have heard it all before, and we know that this campaign is only going to be ramped up because the concerns remain the same: the threats to our privacy and civil liberties, the risk of mass surveillance, the dangers of Government overreach, and the too real vulnerabilities that come with storing vast quantities of personal data. We have only to look at the newspaper headlines this morning to see the true effects of that particular fear, with the breakdown in Amazon workplaces. Imagine if it were the personal data of everybody across the United Kingdom.

[Dr Scott Arthur (Edinburgh South West) (Lab)]

I thank the hon. Member for securing this debate, because it is an issue that the general public are engaging in. He will know that Scotland has its own identity card, known as the Scot card, which is used to store benefits data, debt data, the checks to make sure people can work with vulnerable people, court data and tax data. It is quite incredible. There are real fears that this—

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Arthur]

Does the hon. Gentleman share the concern of Big Brother Watch that there is a mandatory ID system in Scotland in all but name? Does he share the concerns of my residents that the data could be leaked?

[Pete Wishart]

I am not going to waste time responding to all that nonsense. It is a voluntary scheme. Does the hon. Member know the difference between voluntary and mandatory? All he needs to do is shake his head or nod. The detail is at hand. This new scheme has been objected to because it is mandatory—one of the few mandatory ID systems anywhere in the world. The Scot card is great. It is up to the individual user what gets put into it and what gets shared.

This new scheme could barely have got off to a worse start. Support for digital ID has collapsed since the public have been able to see the Government’s proposals. The petition calling for the proposals to be scrapped has become one of the fastest growing ever. It is now at almost 3 million signatories, and I am pretty certain that by the time I sit down it will be well over 3 million.

I heard the Minister’s car-crash interview on Radio Scotland. He told us simultaneously that the Government plans were both compulsory and voluntary, and went on to say that apparently digital ID would be “mandatory for some purposes”—a sort of partial compulsion, a digital half-pregnancy. Maybe this is a Schrödinger’s Britcard.

[Alex Easton (North Down) (Ind)]

Does the hon. Member agree that the vast majority of the population across the UK, including in Northern Ireland, clearly see this for what it is—as a breach of their data, as spying on them—and that the mass of the population are now opposed to it?

[Pete Wishart]

Absolutely. As I said, support for it has been plummeting right across the United Kingdom, and I am not surprised.

Let us just dispel the notion that this is voluntary. This is a mandatory scheme. It is compulsory. It is to be compulsory for work, and if it is compulsory for work, it will be mandatory full stop. The only people who will not need one of these Britcards are those who plan never to work, rent a home, have access to public services or take part in normal life.

As we know, all this emerged from our friends in Labour Together. It was they who first proposed it, and it has been adopted by the Labour party. For some reason, they thought they would call it the Britcard—almost immediately alienating most of Scotland and probably about half of Northern Ireland at the same time. Given its recent controversies, it is probably a good idea for the Minister and his Government team to stay as far away from Labour Together as they possibly can.

Let us have a proper look under the bonnet of the great British Britcard. The Government say that it will be free of charge this time around, and available to all citizens and legal residents. So far, so good, but we still do not know its reach. Who will be expected to take one? There are already rumours that 13-year-olds might have to have a Britcard, although that has been disputed by the Government, and we already know that our veterans will be the first of the many digital guinea pigs.

[Stuart Anderson (South Shropshire) (Con)]

As a veteran, I was disgusted to see yesterday that veterans are being used as guinea pigs, with a smokescreen, to test this system. Our veterans do everything for us. They are brave people. They should not be the ones on whom this is tested. Does the hon. Member agree?

[Pete Wishart]

I most definitely agree with the hon. Gentleman. It is absurd and unfair that our veterans are the guinea pigs who will test this out for the Government.

We are told that digital ID is essential to tackling illegal working and illegal migration. When we look at the evidence on mandatory ID across the world, that just does not stack up. Under the Government’s plan, anyone seeking work must prove their right to work through this digital ID, giving the Home Office sweeping new powers over individuals’ daily lives, from employment to housing and basic public services. There is no clear evidence whatsoever, from anywhere mandatory ID is in place, that it reduces illegal working or irregular migration.

Let us be absolutely clear: illegal working does not stop because people are forced to carry digital ID cards; it stops when people are allowed to work legally, contribute to society and live without fear. Big Brother Watch has called mandatory digital ID a “civil liberties nightmare”, and it is absolutely right. Amnesty International warns that such a scheme risks becoming “a honeypot for hackers” and a tool for state surveillance—again, absolutely right.

The UK has never been a nation where it is normal for someone to have to prove who they are when they are not suspected of doing anything wrong. I do not share the concept of being British, but there is something particularly un-British about having to surrender huge amounts of personal data just to access basic services. A “papers, please” culture, even in digital form, seems so alien to this country.

[Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)]

I agree with most of the hon. Gentleman’s conclusions. Does he agree that, in hindsight, the Scottish Government’s use of a covid passport was a mistake, especially in a way that exposed the Government to criticism from the Information Commissioner about the lack of transparency on how that data was used?

[Pete Wishart]

We are getting a little bit off-track, but I will answer that because the right hon. Gentleman needs an answer: no, I do not think that was a mistake. It was the correct thing to do.

Mandatory digital ID would fundamentally change the trust-based relationship between citizen and state, replacing it with one of constant verification and oversight. Let us not forget about the danger of mission creep. Once this type of infrastructure exists, it rarely stays confined to its original purpose. The Government say that the police will not be able to demand to see a person’s digital ID, but does anyone seriously believe that will not change over time?

This is about not just what this Government might do, but what every future Government might do. We are empowering not just this Labour Government, but every Government that will come after it. Imagine Prime Minister Farage, with all his authoritarian tendencies, with the data of the nation at his fingertips. It scares me half to death and it should scare the whole House half to death.

Then there is the cost. The Government have been very coy about the cost. They are reluctant to give us even a ballpark figure, and they are absolutely right—those prepared to work out an estimate on their behalf have said that, initially, this could cost anything between £1.2 billion and £2 billion. That is a gross underestimate. Laughably, our friends in Labour Together told us that it would be £1.4 million. We need only look at the costs of the physical ID to get a sense of what it will eventually cost. The physical ID would cost £5.4 billion. Some people reckon it would get above £15 billion, possibly to £19 billion or £20 billion.

Digital ID is much more technical and complicated to administer than the physical version. Do the sums work out? How much will this cost? All our constituents should be asking every Member of Parliament whether we should spend billions of pounds on a scheme that nobody wants and that there is no demand for when a cost of living crisis is raging in every single one of our constituencies. Are we seriously going to spend billions of pounds on an unpopular, crackbrained scheme that no one wants or needs?

Then there is what is happening elsewhere. We have heard foreign examples to suggest that this is just business as normal for this Government. They are keen to promote the Estonia scheme. I have had a good look at Estonia. Estonia is 10 times more digitally engaged than the United Kingdom. It is an entirely different nation. But even with all their knowledge, experience and digital systems, there have been catastrophic data leaks, which has led to real problems and issues for the citizenry. Look across Europe: Europe, like Scotland, is developing its own type of digital wallet. That is the right thing to do. People like having these things in a digital wallet. The key difference is that it is not mandatory—we come back to that feature again.

In Scotland, we are developing the ScotAccount, which has proven very popular. I encourage people to use it. There is nothing wrong with having things in a digital wallet. It becomes wrong only when it is made mandatory—when people are expected to carry one even though they do not want to.

[Dr Arthur]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Pete Wishart]

I will not give way to the hon. Gentleman again.

That is the issue, and the Government seem cloth-eared about it. In Scotland, we will have to pass what is called a legislative consent motion to allow this to go through, given our responsibilities for devolved services. We are not going to do that. The Minister will have to decide whether he accepts the democratic will of the Scottish Parliament or whether he will do a Tory and impose it on us anyway. I challenge him to do that in the run-up to the Scottish election, because he will turn this into a nightmare for the Government and a constitutional nightmare for the hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Dr Arthur).

We do not want these things. We think they are thoroughly bad. We saw them off in the 2000s, and we will see them off again. The public hate them, and I believe the petition now has more than 3 million signatures, so we are getting there with the general campaign. I pity the Minister for having to take this through; he would have been much better off had he kept his place in the Scotland Office.

We saw off ID cards in the 2000s. Twenty years on, whether it is plastic cards or digital apps, this is still a data-grabbing, liberty-eroding, multibillion-pound waste of time. We beat them in 2005; and the SNP, with our leadership of the campaign in this Parliament, will ensure that we see them off once again.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

Oral Answers to Questions

Pete Wishart Excerpts

Thursday 16th October 2025 Commons Chamber

[Lisa Nandy]

I really appreciate the urgency of this issue. The example of Daisy from the hon. Member’s constituency is similar to examples from many other Members. As a Labour Government, we obviously believe strongly that people must be fairly paid for their work, which is why we have put transparency and remuneration at the heart of the principles that will govern our approach. Like I said, we have made progress with the expert working group, and we will be able to announce the details shortly. We are also establishing a parliamentary working group, which I very much hope the hon. Member will participate in, to make sure that we hear the views of people from across the country through their MPs. I will be able to deliver a statement to the House by the end of this year on the future of the copyright framework.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and Kinross-shire) (SNP)]

The Government continue their haphazard approach to artificial intelligence and copyright. I wish they would get that resolved. One thing that has concerned and upset the sector was the comments of a newly appointed special adviser to the Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology, who said,

“whether or not you philosophically believe the big AI firms should compensate content creators, they in practice will never legally have to”.

I am really hoping that the Secretary of State distances herself from those comments and that that is not the intention of her Government.

[Lisa Nandy]

I am happy to give the hon. Gentleman that assurance: that is not the Government’s intention. He says that there has been a “haphazard approach”. Actually, no country in the world has yet managed to resolve this matter. We appreciate the urgency and we are determined to address this and become the gold standard. The creative industries are at the centre of our industrial strategy for a reason: because we know that they lead and light up the world. Whatever AI model develops in future, human, good-quality content will be at the heart of that. We have to and will protect it and I am happy to give him that assurance.

Oral Answers to Questions

Pete Wishart Excerpts

Thursday 3rd July 2025 Commons Chamber

[Lisa Nandy]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. It is absolutely fitting that Oasis are returning to Greater Manchester, and Bury is a very fitting venue, not least because my hon. Friend has long championed live music and also indulged—or should I say inflicted?—live music on many of us for years. He will know that this Government are keen to ensure that the communities feel the benefit. In particular, the Minister for Creative Industries, Arts and Tourism has been working hard with industry to introduce a levy on arena and stadium tickets to ensure that we support small venues and help more artists tour nationally. The arts and music in particular are an ecosystem, which we are determined to rebuild after 14 years of neglect.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and Kinross-shire) (SNP)]

I very much support the creative industries sector plan. I think it will do a lot of good in ensuring that live music is promoted, and I hope to see some of the trickle-down effect that the Secretary of State talks about, but the creative industries sector plan also talks about establishing a copyright regime that values and protects human creativity. Can she say when we might see the promised report, when the working groups might be set up, and who will be asked to serve on them?

Oral Answers to Questions

Pete Wishart Excerpts

Thursday 3rd April 2025 Commons Chamber

[Chris Bryant]

The Bunker looks absolutely amazing. It is a not-for-profit organisation—apart from anything else—that gives young people and others an opportunity to learn how to play, perform and record. That is precisely the kind of venue we want to be able to support, which is why I am determined to get this voluntary levy over the line as soon as possible, so we can put millions of pounds into small venues. The last time I was in Sunderland was for P!nk at the Stadium of Light. Perhaps a helpful line from her is:

“What about all the plans that ended in disaster?”

I am determined that that is not going to be one of them.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and Kinross-shire) (SNP)]

For the first time since 2003, no UK artist has made it into the world top 10 album or singles charts. That is partly down to effectively closing the EU to touring artists, where followings now cannot get built and remuneration is not made for artists. The Minister promised to fix this. When will we get our artists back into Europe?

[Chris Bryant]

The hon. Member makes a good point—obviously, we need more songs from Runrig to get us back to the top of the charts.

To make a serious point, it is absolutely essential for new and emerging artists in particular that they have the opportunity to tour across the whole of Europe. I am determined to get this over the line. It is one of the things that we need to renegotiate with the European Union. We have a key meeting coming up in the next few weeks, and I hope we will be able to make some progress.

Oral Answers to Questions

Pete Wishart Excerpts

Thursday 16th January 2025 Commons Chamber

[Lisa Nandy]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right that talent is everywhere, but opportunity is not, and we are determined for that to change. I am not sure whether I have mentioned that I recently went on a visit with Ed Sheeran—[Interruption.] Thirty-eight times, says my hon. Friend the Minister for Creative Industries, Arts and Tourism. In Ipswich, an entire ecosystem is being created that equips young people with those skills and that love of music at school, and goes all the way through enabling them to perform at smaller and larger live music venues, and to get the skills that they need to work in the music industry. We would like to replicate that model around the country. We are working with the newly formed Ed Sheeran Foundation and others to progress this model. As my hon. Friend the Minister mentioned, I have asked him to come up with a 10-point plan to support the music industry. By the time we have finished, it will probably be about 100 points, but we make no apologies for wanting to grip this issue and bring the magic of music to every child in the country.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and Kinross-shire) (SNP)]

As the Secretary of State will know, Scotland’s budget commits to a landmark £34 million uplift in cultural spending, with £20 million going to Creative Scotland to support creative education funding groups, such as Sistema Scotland and the Youth Music Initiative. Will she encourage her Scottish Labour colleagues to get behind this spending, and to vote for the budget?

[Lisa Nandy]

I recently met incredible groups from Scotland that are doing great work through charitable trusts to extend the power of music to every child in Scotland. They have a particular emphasis on children in care, which we really welcome, and would like to replicate. Scotland is also creating music libraries across the country to ensure that young people have access to instruments. I have discussed that with Angus Robertson, my counterpart in the Scottish Government. This Government want a much more constructive relationship with the Scottish Government. When it comes to music, party political differences should be laid aside, and we should work together to make sure that all young people can access the magic that music brings.

Oral Answers to Questions

Pete Wishart Excerpts

Thursday 18th April 2024 Commons Chamber

[Lucy Frazer]

I hope the shadow Secretary of State does very well on Sunday, and I wish her the best of luck. I am absolutely committed—these are not just warm words—to ensuring that more girls and women get involved in sport. I say that they are not just warm words because we have a plethora of policies already in play on this issue, whether that is: investing in football and working with Karen Carney on her women’s football review; building pitches to ensure that girls and women have priority access to sport; the £400 million for multi-sport facilities, which goes across the country; or the taskforce that I talked about, which will get 1 million children more active. We are particularly prioritising people who are inactive at the moment, which unfortunately does include girls.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

I call Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi to ask question 3. [Interruption.] Will the Secretary of State answer the question and allow the shadow Minister to come in?

[Pete Wishart]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Can you sit down, please? Question 2 has been withdrawn. We are now at question 3.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Secretary of State.

[Pete Wishart]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The hon. Member complained about the other question, but it is not my fault that no Government Members have stood to ask a supplementary question. I keep a political balance, and I am not going to break that for him. I call Thangam Debbonaire.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lucy Frazer]

I am pleased to have spoken to Karen Carney on a number of occasions about her review and the importance of women’s football, and I am also pleased to take on board all her recommendations. The Government approved all the review’s recommendations, and I am pleased to chair the first implementation group, which is ensuring that the recommendations will be implemented by the Football Association and others.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

Since I last raised the closure of small music venues, two a week continue to close. There is now a growing consensus within the live music sector that a £1 levy should be put on large music venues and those who are making massive profits at live events. The Culture, Media and Sport Committee is looking at this, and I have listened very carefully to the evidence. If it is recommended, will the Minister put in place a levy similar to the one in other countries across Europe?

[Julia Lopez]

We are very sympathetic to that concept, which has worked well in football. We are closely watching the industry discussions about the idea of a levy that would support grassroots music venues which, as we all know, are the talent pipeline for our world-leading music industry. We do not want to see them wither, so we are watching this matter closely and I have had recent discussions with relevant organisations on it.

Oral Answers to Questions

Pete Wishart Excerpts

Thursday 11th January 2024 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Let us hear from the industry. I call Pete Wishart.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

The music industry is just about the most unequal sector in the whole of society. Those at the bottom—the vast majority—earn an absolute pittance, while those at the very top have unimaginable earnings. Surely we should be doing everything possible to try to change that. It is the sensible option: they do it in France, and the Scottish National party Government are considering doing it in Scotland. Will the Minister support that effort and initiative in Scotland, and if it shows that it can help redistribute some of this money, will she follow that example?

[Julia Lopez]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for telling us what the Scottish National party is doing. I had understood that it was cutting a substantial amount from the arts budget. We have been supporting, for instance, the Edinburgh grassroots hub. I think there is a great deal of appetite in this place for a solution; I also think that the best option is for those in the industry to get together, and we are backing discussions of that kind. Indeed, before I went on leave I talked to Mark Davyd of the Music Venue Trust about the issue.