Oral Answers to Questions
Patricia Gibson Excerpts(10 months ago)
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Grant Shapps
My hon. Friend will be pleased to know that there is no pause. The approvals are flowing.
Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)
Grant Shapps
The whole House recognises the irony of an SNP Member talking about ships being delivered late. The whole House will want to welcome the extraordinary work done by those on HMS Prince of Wales who got the ship ready to leave not at 30 days’ readiness, which is what they were ranked for, but in eight days. I would have thought that congratulating the ship’s company would be the right thing to do.
Oral Answers to Questions
Patricia Gibson Excerpts(11 months, 2 weeks ago)
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Grant Shapps
I absolutely agree. I just want to correct a point that I made earlier: I was talking about frigates, but I think the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard) was talking about the landing platform docks, on which no decision has been made.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Sarah Atherton) mentions, the Royal Marines are absolutely essential. I have asked the First Sea Lord to provide a plan for how their excellent work will be taken forward.
Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)
James Cartlidge
I know how important this issue is to the hon. Lady. Differing rates are paid for workers with different skills and qualifications, which is normal practice in both the public and private sectors. I understand that a generous pay offer remains on the table. It would significantly improve the pay of the workers in dispute beyond the recent 2023 pay award, which has already significantly uplifted base pay for those specific workers, alongside over £4,000 in bonuses. It is disappointing that GMB members have voted to continue industrial action, but DE&S officials continue to be open to talks with the GMB on a constructive basis.
Oral Answers to Questions
Patricia Gibson Excerpts(1 year, 1 month ago)
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Mr Speaker
I am happy to look at an Adjournment debate, if that helps, but we have to have short questions to get other people in.
Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)
Selaine Saxby (North Devon) (Con)
Patricia Gibson
When veterans and their families are compensated for the detrimental impact their service has had on their lives, that is unjustly classed as income when applying for means-tested benefits, rendering veterans and their families ineligible for welfare support under UK Government control, the most significant of which is pension credit. As a result, thousands of veterans miss out on almost £6,000 every year. Will the Minister pledge his support for the Royal British Legion’s Credit their Service campaign? And will he work with the Department for Work and Pensions and his other Cabinet colleagues to ensure that compensation awarded to veterans is disregarded when applying for means-tested benefits?
Dr Murrison
Of course the MOD works with the DWP on a range of issues. Compensation is set in the full knowledge of how it will be dealt with under the benefits system in the UK. By most measures, the armed forces compensation scheme and the war pension scheme are felt to be sound and appropriate for awarding significant amounts of money to those who have served our country and who, unfortunately, have been disadvantaged as a result.
HMS Dasher
Patricia Gibson Excerpts(1 year, 8 months ago)
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Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)
It is a real honour and a fitting tribute to have secured a debate on HMS Dasher, 80 years to the day when it was lost. HMS Dasher was a Royal Navy aircraft carrier that went down off the coast of Ardrossan in my constituency, resulting in the deaths of 379 people—the single biggest loss of life of service personnel in world war two not to have been caused by enemy action—under the command of her new captain, Lennox Albert Knox Boswell.
HMS Dasher had been involved in flying exercises on that fateful Saturday. She was both fully fuelled with 75,000 gallons of ship oil and 20,000 gallons of aircraft fuel, and carrying more than 100 depth charges and at least six torpedoes. At 4.40 pm, Boswell announced that the exercises were complete and the ship was to return to Greenock, where the crew were to be granted shore leave. However, that was not to be, and no one could have predicted the tragic events that were about to unfold.
The Royal Navy Research Archive records that there was a tremendous explosion. The officers on the bridge looked in astonishment as the ship’s 2 tonne aircraft lift flew about 60 feet in the air before falling into the sea behind the ship. The fleet air arm deck was completely destroyed, with the lift between the hangar and the aircraft blown sky high, then into the sea on the port side of the Dasher. The ship was plunged into deathly darkness as lights and machinery failed, and a strange silence descended on the fatally wounded ship. Within eight short minutes, it sank almost vertically beneath the waves.
Those who could abandoned the ship, jumping overboard from any point of exit they could reach as the fires in the hangar deck grew more intense. With oil burning on the water, many crewmen who had managed to jump overboard were caught up in flames when the aviation fuel floating on the water’s surface was ignited by the flames of the ship. While help was quickly scrambled to undertake rescue efforts, the ship had gone down so quickly—witnesses estimate it took no more than seven or eight minutes—that there was little chance of saving those on board. Of a crew of 528, only 149 survived, with 379 losing their lives on that fateful day.
To this day, the remains of the ship lie in the firth of the Clyde, south of Millport and between Brodick on the Isle of Arran and Ardrossan on the mainland, and the exact cause of that terrible incident remains unknown. The ship was not under enemy fire, and there are no records of German U-boats or aircraft in the area at the time.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I commend the hon. Lady on securing this debate; I spoke to her beforehand about this issue. Many families of those who sadly passed away on HMS Dasher still have no clarity to this day. They worry that they themselves will be gone, knowing nothing about their loved ones’ ending. Some have formed the view that bodies are buried in a mass grave somewhere; others are convinced that someone has to know something about what happened. Many will never give up hope that they will have some closure on what happened, and like the hon. Lady, I also have that hope. Does she agree that if documentation exists in relation to this issue that is hidden from the public, we in this House should do all we can through the Minister to encourage that it be fully disclosed, for the sake of those who need clarity in order to move on and to grieve in peace?
Patricia Gibson
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. There have been some explorations about mass graves, but no evidence has been uncovered to back up that theory. However, there is an issue of men unaccounted for from that day, which is a cause of grief for families.
At the time, the Westminster Government ordered a complete news blackout for fear of damaging morale, and fearing questions as to whether or not faulty US construction could have been a factor in the tragedy. Local media were ordered to make no reference to the event, and survivors were also ordered not to discuss the events of that day. As a result, the many lives lost and the bravery of the crew and rescue teams have not always been acknowledged as they ought to have been. There has been speculation that the authorities ordered the dead to be buried in unmarked mass graves, but none has ever been found. The Royal Navy insists that a mass unmarked grave would have been against Admiralty policy, and that all sources relating to the sinking of HMS Dasher are now in the public domain.
Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP)
This is a story that I became aware of only a few days ago, and it is a horrific story by any standards. In January 1941, five men—the youngest of them only 15—from the village of West Wemyss in Fife were killed saving the village from a rogue sea mine that had gone adrift. As happened with the Dasher, people were not allowed to talk about it, even within the village, because of security concerns. Does my hon. Friend agree that after this length of time, the rights of surviving family members and friends to know exactly how and why their loved ones died have to take precedence over anything else? There is no longer any justification for withholding information about why the Dasher exploded in the case she is speaking to, or, indeed, whether it was a German or a British mine that killed five men in West Wemyss in 1941.
Patricia Gibson
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. Yes, it is important that we understand that security considerations are at play during wartime, but ultimately families need to have the answers they seek when any casualties are sustained in any circumstances where people are serving their country and putting themselves in danger to protect the freedoms that we all enjoy.
Some of the Dasher remains recovered are buried in Ardrossan cemetery, recorded by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, while others are unaccounted for. I pay tribute to the work of the late John Steele of Ardrossan, who sadly died in December 2021, and his widow Noreen, who have extensively researched this tragedy and published their findings in a publication called “The Secrets of HMS Dasher”. They found that the official number of recovered bodies listed by the inquiry into the tragedy was far greater than officially indicated and sought tirelessly to find out the location of any unaccounted for men.
Sadly, despite the huge loss of life on HMS Dasher, or more likely because of the huge loss of life, this incident was undisclosed until 1945, when it was given a brief mention in The London Times. Bereaved families at the time of the loss of HMS Dasher were told only that their loved ones were missing, presumed lost. It was not until 1972, when official documents were released, that details of HMS Dasher and those who went down with her were revealed, yet the bereaved received no further official communication, other than the telegram they had received in 1943, indicating that their loved one was missing, presumed lost.
After this tragedy, an official board of inquiry was hastily convened, and within just two days, it was concluded that the Dasher had sunk due to an internal petrol explosion. However, some argue that several key witnesses were not called to give evidence. The official cause of her sinking is still doubtful, but it seems the explosion most likely occurred in the main petrol compartment and was ignited either by someone smoking in the shaft tunnel or a dropped cigarette.
The late John Steele and his widow Noreen spent long years interviewing numerous survivors of the disaster and browsed previously classified documents to better understand the ship’s fate. This painstaking work led them to conclude that the ship was never suitable for combat operations and that it was a disaster waiting to happen. Shortly before its sinking, it was found to contravene more than 20 Royal Navy regulations. Significantly, there was fuel splashing around the vessel. It is worth noting that the other converted Rio class ships had alterations soon after the loss of HMS Dasher and the amount of fuel permitted on board these ships was significantly reduced.
Mr Steele observed:
“What eventually spelled the end for HMS Dasher ship was its leaking petrol tanks. Sometimes the sailors could not return to their cabins due to the fumes. Just one small spark could have triggered the explosion, after which the ship took only eight minutes to sink.”
Steele and his wife Noreen were determined to discover what happened to those dead who remain unaccounted for, and he continued to investigate the rumoured mass grave in which many of the dead were said to be buried. Sadly, Mr Steele ended his days without finding out where those unaccounted for were, despite his tireless efforts to do so over many years, but I know that many of the bereaved families are grateful for his efforts to find their lost loved ones and raise awareness of this terrible event.
The site of HMS Dasher in the Clyde is an official protected war grave, designated as a controlled site under the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986. Several memorials have been erected in the surrounding area, commemorating the event and the loss of life. On 28 June 2000, a memorial plaque was laid on the flight deck by a team from the European Technical Dive Centre. Every year, the staff of CalMac ferries stop over the very spot between Ardrossan and Arran where the Dasher went down, allowing bereaved relatives and local veterans to lay flowers and pay tribute to those who were lost. I want to pay tribute to those staff for the efforts they make to facilitate this.
Shortly after I was first elected in 2015, I wrote to the then Secretary of State for Defence, Michael Fallon, requesting a copy of the survey that was carried out on the site of the wreck of the Dasher. In his response, he explained that it was believed that significant, though unquantified, amounts of oil and ammunition may remain in the wreck, which lies in close proximity to a number of environmentally sensitive areas. No report was available as the purpose of the survey was to establish the location of the wreck site. In 2014, another non-intrusive survey was undertaken involving a remotely operated vehicle to obtain video and sonar footage of the wreckage.
The wreck of HMS Dasher lies about 500 feet down in the firth of Clyde between Ardrossan and Arran. It is recognised as an official war grave because the crew were unable to leave the vessel as it sank. However, the mystery of HMS Dasher continues with the story of John—“Jack”—Melville, aged 37, who drowned, and it is now believed that he may have been the real “man who never was”. Mr Melville’s body, many argue, was used in Operation Mincemeat, which was an elaborate hoax to fool the Germans into believing allied forces would invade southern Europe through Greece and Sardinia rather than through Sicily.
In 2004, 61 years after Melville died, his daughter, Mrs Mackay from Galashiels, was able to give her father the memorial service he deserved, with the help of the Royal Navy in Cyprus. The memorial service took place on board the current HMS Dasher, a patrol boat, in waters around a British sovereign RAF base in Cyprus. This was undoubtedly the first tribute by the Royal Navy to John Melville, the alleged “man who never was”, and it is thought to be the first time Britain’s armed services recognised Melville’s role.
The success of Operation Mincemeat was dependent on the provision of a believable genuine corpse. It is believed that, after Mr Melville’s body was recovered from the firth of Clyde following the loss of HMS Dasher, it was packed in ice and placed on board the submarine HMS Seraph for transport to the Mediterranean. There, his body was carefully dressed in the uniform of a Royal Marines courier, the fictitious Major William Martin, ensuring details such as labels were all correct. He was provided with false documentation to support the legend, including personal letters and photographs provided by female staff involved in the operation. Finally, the courier’s all-important leather briefcase containing the false plans was prepared, ready for transport.
On 29 April 1943, HMS Seraph made ready and departed for a location on the coast of Spain, chosen in the knowledge that an active German agent was stationed there. The prepared body was preserved in dry ice, packed in a special canister and identified only as secret meteorological equipment to all but those directly involved. At 4.30 on the morning of 30 April 1943, the canister was brought up on deck under the pretence of deploying the equipment it contained. The Seraph’s crew were ordered below deck, and the submarine’s officers were finally briefed on the real operation and sworn to secrecy. The canister was opened, Major Martin’s body was fitted with a Mae West lifejacket and the briefcase was attached. The 39th Psalm was read, and then the body was gently pushed into the sea, leaving the tide to carry it ashore, together with a rubber dinghy to complete the illusion of an aircraft accident.
And the hoax worked. Days after the body appeared on the Spanish coast, Winston Churchill received a telegram saying, “Mincemeat swallowed whole.” In addition to saving thousands of allied soldiers’ lives, Operation Mincemeat helped to further Italian leader Benito Mussolini’s downfall and to turn the tide of the war towards an allied victory in Europe. Although many still speculate and disagree as to the real identity of the man who never was, many absolutely believe that it was indeed Mr John Melville.
Tonight, I hope that commemorating the tragedy of the loss of HMS Dasher on the Floor of the House offers some tribute to the strength of North Ayrshire and Arran’s people, bringing the horror and devastation of the sinking of HMS Dasher to life while also remembering and honouring those who died and those who survived, sometimes with physical or psychological injuries. The crew were part of a war against tyranny, and they made the ultimate sacrifice to protect our freedoms and democracy. We must retell their story and pay tribute to them to ensure their memory lives on. Conflict continues in many parts of the world. This anniversary must remind us of those men and women who devote their lives to upholding democratic principles—principles that Ukraine is battling to defend as we speak.
In North Ayrshire and Arran, we have a proud history of supporting our Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines. I thank all servicemen and women, their families and Royal British Legion volunteers who support our veterans and have ensured that HMS Dasher’s sinking is properly commemorated, woven as it is into the fabric of Ardrossan’s history. I wish I had time tonight to give a roll call of all those lost on HMS Dasher, but instead I will simply ask the Minister to join me in paying tribute to all those who were so tragically lost that night, so suddenly. The impact on the survivors is beyond anything we can imagine, and the grief of the bereaved families would have been profound and life-changing.
As I prepared for the debate, and in response to my early-day motion 969 on the 80th anniversary of HMS Dasher’s sinking, I was contacted by David Mackintosh, who was involved with the HMS Dasher Association for many years, and whose great uncle Cecil John Davis, Ordinary Telegraphist, was lost at the age of 21 when the vessel went down. He is now buried in Ardrossan cemetery. This tragedy is truly part of Ardrossan, and the memorial to the lives lost has a prominent place in the town. I pass it regularly, as it is sited metres from my constituency office. The graves of those young men are well tended in Ardrossan cemetery, and they are treated with the reverence and respect they are due. This is a special day of commemoration for the people of Ardrossan, many of whom I know will have reflected quietly on this anniversary, with a great sense of loss and grief across the town. I hope the Minister will join me in paying tribute to all those who were on board HMS Dasher that night, those who survived, and those who did not. We will always remember their great bravery and their ultimate sacrifice.
Oral Answers to Questions
Patricia Gibson Excerpts(3 years, 3 months ago)
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Chris Law (Dundee West) (SNP)
Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)
The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Ben Wallace)
I routinely engage at all levels, both nationally and internationally, in order to tackle the threat of terrorism across the middle east, north Africa, and the wider region. We continue to work with allies and regional partners to promote a safe and secure Afghanistan and to prevent the terrorist groups from gaining any foothold in the country in the future.
Mr Wallace
The reduction in conflict, stability and security funding, which is effectively what the hon. Gentleman is referring to, is partly because if it were to continue it could end up in the hands of the Taliban. Given that the fall of Afghanistan was happening, I do not think that that would have been a wise thing for anyone to do. Secondly, he should not rule out the fact that counter-terrorism funding both for here and abroad has increased significantly since 2015, with well over 30% of funding both to civilians such as the police and the intelligence services and to special forces and the armed forces. The direction of travel is increasing not decreasing and the capability that we are procuring, including the drones that we have recently signed up to, will give us extra capability that we did not have all those years ago in 2001.
Patricia Gibson
Can the Secretary of State indicate when an update will be given to the House on the terror threat that the UK faces following the Taliban takeover of Afghanistan and the attendant heightened potential for terrorism being harboured there?
Mr Wallace
The Joint Terrorism Analysis Centre sets the threat levels for this country, and it does so independently of Ministers. When those levels are changed, it will make a statement and the House will be informed. As far as a bulletin or update to the House is concerned, the hon. Lady is obviously free either to apply for an Adjournment debate or to table written questions, and we will be happy to ensure that we respond. On top of that, we have periodical updates on Afghanistan and the counter-Daesh strategy, and we will continue to provide them from time to time.
Ajax Programme
Patricia Gibson Excerpts(3 years, 6 months ago)
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Jeremy Quin
I would very much like to see this vehicle as an export opportunity, and I believe it can be. The noise that has been quite rightly and legitimately raised in respect of the issues in the demonstration phase is understandable, but it probably will not help the vehicle’s export potential immediately. I hope that, during the demonstration phase, we can resolve what we need to resolve, and I would love to see a situation in which I can confirm to the House that all is well, that we have hit IOC and that we are going to proceed to FOC. Incidentally, someone asked about FOC earlier but I did not come back to them: we are doing work with Tony Meggs from the IPA to make certain that we get an agreed FOC. I should have said that earlier, but it is now on the record. I hope to get that sorted and then proceed to export what will be a transformational vehicle in service with the British Army to our allies and friends around the world, meaning more jobs for this country.
Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)
In addition to issues with the Ajax programme, the Government are still struggling to get on top of the massive black hole in their equipment plan, with the most recent report from the National Audit Office having found that it “remains unaffordable” for “the fourth successive year”. That is another warning from the NAO that has not been properly heeded by this Government, and the plan is up to £13 billion overdrawn. What plans does the Secretary of State have to plug the huge financial black hole?
Jeremy Quin
With the greatest respect to the hon. Lady, the report to which she referred was published prior to the injection of the additional £24 billion earlier this year. As a result of that, we will be publishing an equipment plan that will add up. I recognise that that will be for the first time in many years, and under successive Governments, but we will have a plan of which we can all be proud.
Commonwealth War Graves Commission: Historical Inequalities Report
Patricia Gibson Excerpts(3 years, 8 months ago)
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Mr Wallace
The only wars that I am interested in are the ones that we can finish or avoid, or that threaten our values. I do not care where the people we will need to protect us come from and I do not care what their orientation is or what colour they are, either.
Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)
The failure to formally honour and remember black and Asian service personnel in the same way as white troops is indeed a cause for shame and deep sadness. I am pleased that the Secretary of State has indicated that all the support necessary will be made available to try to do what we can to right this wrong. Will he confirm that that support will be progressed with the utmost urgency and sensitivity, so that all our war dead are finally given the respect that they deserve? I am sure he will understand that any delays will only entrench the sense of hurt and disrespect that this report will inevitably provoke.
Mr Wallace
Yes. The House should be under no illusion: the commission is absolutely determined to see this matter through. There are Members of this House on the commission and they are determined to talk and work together, and we will continue to do that. The weight of the Department will be behind them in achieving their goals.
Oral Answers to Questions
Patricia Gibson Excerpts(3 years, 10 months ago)
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Johnny Mercer
We are currently in the process, as the hon. Member knows, of resolution in that case, and I am not going to comment on it in a public forum, but my hon. Friend the Minister for Defence Procurement will write to him this afternoon.
Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)
Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)
The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Ben Wallace)
The Government have been clear that we will not sign the treaty on the prohibition of nuclear weapons. We welcome the US offer to extend the new START—strategic arms reduction treaty—with Russia, and we would support that treaty and its robust verification mechanisms continuing.
Patricia Gibson [V]
The Secretary of State will be aware of the deep disappointment and frustration felt across Scotland and much of the UK because the UK Government did not join 85 other countries and sign up to the treaty on the prohibition of nuclear weapons on 22 January. Can he explain why the UK has failed to support this treaty, and how this is consistent with its strategic objectives and obligations under article VI of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty to make attempts in good faith to move towards the eventual abolition of nuclear weapons programmes?
Mr Wallace
The Government did not sign up to it because we do not think it is an effective way of dealing with this. We do think that the nuclear non-proliferation treaty is a more effective way of reducing both the spread and, indeed, the number of nuclear weapons on the planet, and that is why we favour gradual multilateral disarmament negotiated through a step-by-step approach.
Middle East: Security
Patricia Gibson Excerpts(4 years, 11 months ago)
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Mr Wallace
In the Gulf region we currently have HMS Defender and HMS Montrose—a Type 45 and a Type 23 frigate. We have a Royal Fleet Auxiliary ship with helicopter support, and a number of minesweepers. We have a lot of Navy assets in that region, as do our allies and other Gulf Arab states in that area, and we will work together and hold co-ordination meetings to try to ensure that we maximise their use. We are currently focused on ensuring that we do not provoke on the Iranian coastline, while ensuring that we maintain the international law of freedom of navigation, so that those ships that are vital to our economy are not intimidated or kidnapped.
Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)
It is unwise to threaten it once; it is deeply alarming to threaten it twice. If US President Trump does intend to target Iranian cultural sites, what will the UK response be? To what extent will that response be influenced by the UK Government seeking a trade deal with the US?
Mr Wallace
We have been clear that we will seek for everyone to comply with international law. Targeting heritage sites is against international law, and we will not be shy in calling that out publicly or privately to the United States. After that statement by the President, the United States Defence Secretary made it clear that US policy is not to target heritage sites.
Continuous At-Sea Deterrent
Patricia Gibson Excerpts(5 years, 8 months ago)
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Brendan O’Hara
I will not. Sadly, those words and that sentiment seem to have dictated the thinking not just of the British establishment, but of Conservative and, sadly, Labour politicians ever since.
Let us be honest about it. Having this so-called independent nuclear deterrent is all about allowing the United Kingdom to perpetuate the myth that it is still a world superpower. Judging by the astronomical amounts of money that Members are prepared to spend on these weapons, it seems that there is no price too high. There is no price they will not pay to propagate that delusion. Eye-watering amounts of public money are being poured into weapons of mass destruction at a time when poverty and child poverty are at Dickensian levels and food bank use has never been higher.
Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)
Does my hon. Friend agree that there is no word to describe the sense of betrayal felt by people who formerly supported the Labour party? The Leader of the Opposition was once the head of CND and was committed to ridding the UK of nuclear weapons, but the party now embraces them enthusiastically.
Brendan O’Hara
I will let the Leader of the Opposition speak for himself, but I find it astonishing. As a unilateralist, I could never imagine myself suddenly becoming a multilateralist.
This whole debate about the UK’s desire to be a nuclear power, come what may and regardless of cost, has striking similarities to the debate we have been having on Brexit. In both cases, we are seeing a post-imperial power struggling to come to terms with, and find its place in, a changing world. Rather than accepting and being part of that new world, the UK has decided to embark on a desperate search for a better yesterday. The result is that it is almost impossible to have a reasoned debate on nuclear weapons because, for so many in this House, possession of nuclear weapons, weapons of mass destruction, has become nothing more than a national virility symbol.