Oral Answers to Questions

Oliver Dowden Excerpts

Thursday 23rd November 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab)]

1. What recent assessment he has made of the effectiveness of his Department during the covid-19 pandemic.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Secretary of State in the Cabinet Office (Oliver Dowden)]

The Cabinet Office played a crucial role in co-ordinating the cross-Government response to the pandemic, and we continue to learn lessons from it. Last year, the Cabinet Office published the resilience framework, an ambitious, wide-reaching and long-term plan that is already working to strengthen our national resilience.

[Mr Dhesi]

Those of us who lost loved ones during the pandemic have been left shocked and angered by the revelations being unearthed in the covid inquiry. They include quotes from the diary of the then Government chief scientific adviser, Sir Patrick Vallance, that the current Prime Minister thought

“just let people die and that’s OK”.

If that was not cruel enough, he was also overheard saying that Ministers should focus on

“handling the scientists and not the virus”.

Does the Secretary of State agree with me that this shows a shameful disregard for people’s lives and callous decision making at the heart of Government?

[Oliver Dowden]

I should say from the outset that I simply do not recognise that characterisation, but that is the whole point of the inquiry. This Government set up the inquiry, for the sake of the victims and the nation, to get to the bottom of what was an unprecedented crisis not just here, but around the world. We have been totally open and transparent with that inquiry. We have given it over 56,000 pieces of evidence. I would gently urge the hon. Gentleman to allow the inquiry to complete its investigations, to hear from all the witnesses and to produce its recommendations. As I have committed to that inquiry, the Government will respond fully to every single recommendation from Lady Justice Hallett.

[Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)]

During the pandemic, I could only see the true professionalism of civil servants in a variety of Departments, including the Cabinet Office, and I am very conscious of some of the pain being felt about the victims of that time. Does my right hon. Friend agree with me that the civil service really stood up to the challenge of dealing with imperfect data and a rapidly changing situation? By the way, I include the civil servants of the Department for Work and Pensions in that regard. However, may I also encourage him to consider how we can strengthen analytical skills and capabilities right across the civil service? That is important, and I think it will be one of the key lessons that should come out of the inquiry.

[Oliver Dowden]

I thank my right hon. Friend for her question, and I pay tribute to her for her many years of service in the Cabinet. I agree with her characterisation of the civil service. Indeed, in my time working in various ministerial roles, I have seen true professionalism and dedication. However, I think she is absolutely right that we need to improve both our data analytics and the data flow into Government. One of the things we learned during the covid pandemic was, for example, that setting up the data centre in the Cabinet Office massively improved the amount of data we received. That enables us to deal with these very fast-moving situations and, indeed, we have used it in subsequent crises.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Minister.

[Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab)]

The Deputy Prime Minister has just said that he does not recognise the alleged remark of the Prime Minister, who is supposed to have said

“just let people die and that’s OK”,

as set out by my hon. Friend the Member for Slough (Mr Dhesi). I am sure that the Deputy Prime Minister would agree that the way to deal with this is through transparency with the ongoing inquiry. I wrote to him last month to ask him about the Prime Minister handing over all his WhatsApp messages, particularly given that the Prime Minister’s account that he no longer has access to all of them seems implausible. With the Prime Minister appearing before the covid inquiry before the end of the year, can the Deputy Prime Minister confirm that all the Prime Minister’s WhatsApp messages for this period will be made available to the inquiry?

[Oliver Dowden]

I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that we will furnish the inquiry with every single piece of information it requires. Indeed, I would note that the Prime Minister and all those who are requested to provide information to the inquiry are legally obliged to do so. That is precisely what we have done. My Department alone has provided over 56,000 different pieces of evidence. I would gently say to him that the Labour party repeatedly called for this inquiry to be set up. We have set up this inquiry, and I think hon. Members should allow it to do its job, not jump to conclusions. When it produces its recommendations, I can assure the House that the Government will respond in full.

[Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab)]

2. What steps he is taking with Cabinet colleagues to help ensure value for money in public procurement.

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[David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)]

11. What assessment he has made of the adequacy of the list of Ministers’ interests in ensuring that Ministers (a) declare and (b) avoid any conflict of interest.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Secretary of State in the Cabinet Office (Oliver Dowden)]

There is an established regime under which Ministers’ interests are declared and managed. Ministers seek the advice of their permanent secretaries and the independent adviser on Ministers’ interests, who reports twice yearly. This is but one element of a network of ethics systems, including the ministerial code and the business appointment rules, which uphold the highest standards in Government.

[David Linden]

The Minister says that there is “a network of ethics systems” for the appointment of Ministers, so let me ask a simple question: when was the last time Lord Cameron was not domiciled in the UK?

[Oliver Dowden]

That is a question for Lord Cameron, but I would be amazed if he had not been domiciled in this country for his entire life.

[Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

14. What assessment he has made of the potential impact of staff turnover in the civil service on domain knowledge and subject expertise among senior civil servants.

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[Kate Osamor (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Secretary of State in the Cabinet Office (Oliver Dowden)]

The accession of His Majesty the King marked a new chapter in our nation’s history. This month, the Cabinet Office launched a scheme to make new portraits of His Majesty available to all public institutions. After the splendour of the coronation, this is a fitting addition to the fabric of our public life.

The Cabinet Office has also led efforts on artificial intelligence, including setting up a new AI incubator made up of a team of technical experts. We will use our convening power to drive AI adoption across Government.

[Kate Osamor]

I asked my constituent, who is sadly personally affected by the infected blood scandal, what he wants to hear from the Government. All he wants is to see justice and receive assurances that nothing similar is ever allowed to happen again. Following on from Question 3, asked by my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson), and for victims’ peace of mind, can the Minister ensure transparency in implementing the inquiry’s final recommendations so that, ultimately, this House can hold him accountable?

[Oliver Dowden]

The hon. Lady will have heard the answers given by my right hon. Friend, the Paymaster General. He has given a clear commitment, which I am very happy to endorse from the Dispatch Box, on both transparency and speed of response. That is the approach that he and I are pursuing.

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

T8. My constituents who run small and medium-sized enterprises constantly complain about their ability to get Government contracts. The passing of the Procurement Act 2023 will obviously make that a lot easier. Will my right hon. Friend update the House on when that will be enacted? What will be the benefits to SMEs not only in my constituency but across the country?

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[Paul Howell (Sedgefield) (Con)]

Mr Speaker, you may remember that, earlier this year, I referenced a 102-year-old constituent who had completed the Great North Run, having done a 1,000-mile bike ride the year before and a 100-mile walk the year before that. We were compiling a submission so that the gentleman could get an honour but, unfortunately, he passed away in the last couple of weeks. Given the extraordinary service that this veteran gave to the country, are there any routes we can still follow to get some recognition for him in this unfortunate situation?

[Oliver Dowden]

May I begin by paying tribute to the extraordinary endeavours of my hon. Friend’s constituent, which I would never be able to achieve at any stage in life? I am afraid that it is a general principle that honours are not given posthumously, but we are in consultation with the palace to look at posthumous honours for people who have lost their lives in public service. We continue to keep this under review, but it is a complex area.

[Neale Hanvey (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath) (Alba)]

T2. It may be true that the Cabinet Office’s Greensill inquiry established that Lord Cameron had not broken any lobbying rules or acted unlawfully, but a Treasury Committee report, in finding that he had not broken the rules, said that this reflected on the “insufficient strength” of the rules. So what progress has been made to strengthen them? What role will they play in measuring the past activities of Ministers who are to be appointed?

[Oliver Dowden]

I refer the hon. Gentleman to a written ministerial statement I made to the House a couple of months ago, in which I explained how, at length, we have implemented many recommendations, for example from the Boardman review and others. That included strengthening the civil service contractual requirements in relation to the Advisory Committee on Business Appointments and introducing a deed of covenant for Ministers to uphold the findings of the Advisory Committee on Business Appointments. I continue to engage with Lord Pickles, who chairs ACOBA, about further such reforms that can be undertaken.

[Greg Clark (Tunbridge Wells) (Con)]

The Deputy Prime Minister played a prominent role at the artificial intelligence summit in Bletchley Park earlier this month. One big question is whether open source should be encouraged and perhaps even required, in order to encourage openness and innovation, or whether it should be restricted, to keep the models in the hands of known actors. What is the direction of his thinking on that?

[Oliver Dowden]

As ever, my right hon. Friend raises an erudite question. My disposition, and that of the Government, is that open source AI is an important basis upon which we can build many world-leading applications. We can see companies in this country growing at a fast pace by developing innovative AI off the back of open source. Of course, there are risks associated with it, but there is a high bar to be met before the Government would start imposing additional regulatory burdens on open source AI, given the associated benefits for economic growth.

[Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) (Lab)]

T3. Palantir has this week received one of the largest contracts imaginable. The company is based in silicon valley in California. It was established by the CIA and it has continuing links with the American defence network. It looks as though huge amounts of British NHS money and profits will be migrating back across the pond to California, but the most concerning thing is that information about millions of our fellow citizens—their health data—will be handled by that company. How can that be right?

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[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

T7. In thirteen and a half years in this House, I have barely known a time when foreign policy is more important, so will the Secretary of State confirm that he is working with you, Mr Speaker, to find a way for elected Members of this House to scrutinise the Foreign Secretary directly?

[Oliver Dowden]

I know that the Procedure Committee has been examining this subject, and we continue to discuss it with you, Mr Speaker. There is a well-established convention whereby the office of Foreign Secretary has been held by a Member of the other place. That has worked well in the past, but I know that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary is committed to further increasing his accountability to this place.

[Mr Speaker]

We are both working on a solution.

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[David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)]

Does the Deputy Prime Minister think it is acceptable that Baroness Michelle Mone has more ability to scrutinise the Foreign Secretary than Members of this House?

[Oliver Dowden]

I refer the hon. Gentleman to my previous answer about the well-established principle that Ministers can serve from the other place, which I believe last happened when Lord Mandelson was in the Labour Cabinet. However, the Government and my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary recognise this House’s desire to scrutinise him and he has committed to further measures to ensure that happens.

[Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

I thank the Government for publishing the report on governance and accountability in the civil service, which my noble Friend Lord Maude was commissioned to produce. May I point out that one of his recommendations in that very well drafted report is about learning from the experience of other civil services, such as those in New Zealand, Australia and Canada, where indeed they retain civil servants in post much longer by paying them better—