Oral Answers to Questions

Bernard Jenkin Excerpts

Thursday 23rd November 2023 Commons Chamber

[Oliver Dowden]

That is a question for Lord Cameron, but I would be amazed if he had not been domiciled in this country for his entire life.

[Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

14. What assessment he has made of the potential impact of staff turnover in the civil service on domain knowledge and subject expertise among senior civil servants.

[The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (John Glen)]

In July 2022 we launched a policy setting the expected assignment durations for the senior civil service—the SCS1 and SCS2 roles—at a default minimum of three years, to support the transfer of knowledge management and subject expertise. The initial impact of the policy will be reviewed by July next year, and there will be a fuller review in July 2025, following the completion of the first three-year cycle.

[Sir Bernard Jenkin]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his appointment—and a very welcome one it is too. Does he acknowledge that although the problem of churn and generalism in the civil service has been around for 50 or 60 years, since the Fulton inquiry in the 1960s under Harold Wilson, it has become worse and worse? I thank him for the evidence that the Government have submitted to the Liaison Committee’s inquiry on strategic thinking in Government and how Select Committees can better scrutinise it, but if the Government do not have in place the experts and the people with domain knowledge, domain expertise and subject experience, there is not likely to be much good strategic thinking going on, given that Ministers often seem to know more about the subjects than the officials they are dealing with. May I invite my right hon. Friend to give us a supplementary note for the inquiry, so that we can understand their thinking on this matter more deeply?

[John Glen]

My hon. Friend obviously knows a great deal about this as a result of his distinguished 31 years of experience in the House, but pivotal role allowances have been in place for 10 years to help us to retain certain key individuals. A number of initiatives were introduced by my distinguished predecessor Lord Maude, the former right hon. Member for Horsham, and I intend to build on those, but I am happy to engage with my hon. Friend, because this is a serious issue.

In 2022, the last year for which we have figures, there was a 12.4% turnover from the senior civil service, and resignations were at 5%. We need to look carefully at what that means across different roles, and at how we can retain the specialisms for longer periods so that key Government programmes benefit from the sort of leadership that has enduring expertise at the table.

--- Later in debate ---

[Oliver Dowden]

I refer the hon. Gentleman to my previous answer about the well-established principle that Ministers can serve from the other place, which I believe last happened when Lord Mandelson was in the Labour Cabinet. However, the Government and my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary recognise this House’s desire to scrutinise him and he has committed to further measures to ensure that happens.

[Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

I thank the Government for publishing the report on governance and accountability in the civil service, which my noble Friend Lord Maude was commissioned to produce. May I point out that one of his recommendations in that very well drafted report is about learning from the experience of other civil services, such as those in New Zealand, Australia and Canada, where indeed they retain civil servants in post much longer by paying them better—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Many Members wish to speak, but they will not get in if we are not careful.