Draft Double Taxation Relief (Base Erosion and Profit Shifting) Order 2018
Draft Double Taxation Relief (Switzerland) Order 2018
Draft Double Taxation Relief and International Tax Enforcement (Uzbekistan) Order 2018
Mel Stride Excerpts(6 years, 6 months ago)
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The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Double Taxation Relief (Base Erosion and Profit Shifting) Order 2018.
The Chair
With this it will be convenient to consider the draft Double Taxation Relief (Switzerland) Order 2018 and the draft Double Taxation Relief and International Tax Enforcement (Uzbekistan) Order 2018.
Mel Stride
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship again, Mr Hosie. The base erosion and profit shifting—BEPS—order brings into effect the multilateral convention to implement tax treaty-related measures to prevent base erosion and profit shifting, which is commonly and thankfully referred to simply as the multilateral instrument. The orders in respect to Switzerland and Uzbekistan amend our existing double taxation agreements with those countries. All the instruments bolster the UK’s network of international tax arrangements and deepen our commitment to avoiding double taxation while preventing tax evasion and avoidance.
Double taxation agreements—DTAs—are bilateral agreements between the UK and other countries that aim to ensure that profits, income and gains are taxed only once. They develop the UK’s economic relationship with other countries and vice versa. DTAs provide critical certainty for cross-border firms and enhance co-operation in tax matters to stimulate economic growth and prevent tax avoidance.
The OECD/G20 base erosion and profit shifting project recommends a number of changes to DTAs, including the introduction of minimum standards to prevent tax avoidance by those who abuse tax treaties, and measures to improve the resolution of tax disputes. In addition, it recommends action to prevent so-called hybrid mismatches and the avoidance of permanent establishment status.
To enable those enhancements to DTAs to be made as soon as possible, more than 100 countries in a group chaired by the UK drew up the multilateral instrument. The group adopted the text of the MLI in November 2016 and it has now been signed by 78 jurisdictions, including the UK. It is in the process of being ratified by those jurisdictions. Individual DTAs will be modified by the MLI only if both jurisdictions have signed it and have given notice that they wish the DTA to be covered by it. The UK intends the MLI to cover all our DTAs that are agreements under international law and that do not already include provisions that we want from the MLI.
Except in relation to certain minimum standards, parties implementing the MLI are also permitted to reserve against provisions. If either party to the DTA has reserved against an MLI provision, that provision cannot modify the DTA. Following consultation, the UK proposes to adopt those provisions that are a proportionate and effective defence against the abuse of tax treaties, in addition to the minimum standard provisions. We intend to reserve against provisions that have a disproportionate effect on commercial transactions or that are unnecessary in the light of other measures taken to address the misuse of the international tax framework.
At the time of signing the MLI, the UK submitted its list of reservations to the OECD, which was published on the OECD’s website. Some minor amendments to that list have also been published on gov.uk. Those amendments relate to bilateral arrangements that have been agreed since the submission of our original list of reservations.
To ensure complete clarity for taxpayers, HMRC will prepare consolidated versions of treaties showing how they have been modified by the MLI and will publish those in good time before the modifications take effect. Where possible, it is our intention to agree those texts with our treaty partners. The order ensures that the UK can use the MLI to implement our commitments under the BEPS project and that our DTAs contain robust and proportionate defences against tax avoidance to the benefit of the UK and our treaty partners.
Let me now turn to the other two orders, in respect of Switzerland and Uzbekistan. The Switzerland order amends our existing 1977 DTA. To give effect to DTAs, the Swiss Government transpose them directly into domestic law, so it is much more straightforward for them to amend their law by amending the existing DTA, rather than by adopting the MLI separately. As a result, we agreed with Switzerland to implement modifications that would have been made by the MLI through this order.
For Uzbekistan, the order implements many of the provisions available under the MLI, including minimum standards on preventing treaty abuse and improving dispute resolution. In addition, the order provides for a general update to the existing text to reflect changes to the OECD model tax treaty and the domestic laws of the UK and Uzbekistan. Importantly, the changes remove a barrier to UK companies claiming benefits in respect of dividends from Uzbekistan created by the introduction of a dividend exemption regime in the United Kingdom. That will enhance the investment climate for UK businesses in Uzbekistan, to the benefit of both countries.
The orders enhance our commitment to tackling international tax avoidance and evasion. They also strengthen the integrity of our network of DTAs and remove barriers to investment by UK businesses. I commend the orders to the Committee.
Mel Stride
I thank the hon. Member for Oxford East. It is not long since we jousted and debated, and it is good to be back doing exactly that. I welcome the overarching support for the MLI in her early remarks, particularly in respect of tax avoidance and the double taxation avoidance measures, although I understand that she has some issues around arbitration, which I will come to in a moment. I too have fond memories of clause 32 of the Finance Bill last year, which provided the powers under which the MLI is being brought forward for consideration.
The hon. Lady posed a large number of questions and I will attempt to answer as many as I can—I was busy thinking about the answers to some when the next two or three arrived in train, so if I do not cover everything, I would of course be very happy to take a representation from the hon. Lady after the Committee and look at them in more detail.
On advertising and the reservations that we might be seeking from the MLI, we have provided information on the OECD website and subsequent changes appeared on the gov.uk website, so the information is in the public domain. We will be required to provide that information to the OECD some four months before this measure comes into effect and it in turn will advertise the reserved elements that we decide on at that time.
The hon. Lady asked why we do not include all the DTAs. She is absolutely right that the UK has a large number—from memory, I think it is around 130—and about 121 will be potentially covered by this measure. The answer is that, in some cases, the DTAs largely conform to the changes that would be introduced were they to be subject to the MLI. In some cases, it is not necessary, as our treaty contains substantial provisions. Our first-time DTA with Colombia would be one example.
The hon. Lady asked whether Switzerland taking these tax changes directly into domestic law, rather than less efficiently through the MLI, was a unique circumstance. I believe that it is relatively unique—my officials have just nodded. It is something of an unusual situation. That is the reason that both countries have decided to approach the matter in this way.
The hon. Lady mentioned permanent establishments and various related issues, asking why we were reserving against those particular matters. The general response to that and like matters is that the Government do not believe that they would have any major material impact on what happens with the taxation of revenues from one country coming back into the United Kingdom. Of course, those measures would bring with them various administrative burdens on business, which the Government always seek to minimise where possible.
The hon. Lady raised the issue of consultation on digital taxation, slightly at a tangent to the matter at hand. I would welcome her intervention if I have misunderstood her, but I think she was referring to our consultation on the taxation of businesses making profits via digital platforms.
Anneliese Dodds
I am grateful to the Minister for seeking clarification. The reason I mentioned it was that, with the adoption of the MLI, we have what many would view as quite a lax approach to defining permanent establishments, compared with article 12, if we had adopted that. However, in that consultation, the Government seemed to suggest a stricter approach. There seems to be a contradiction, which in itself is contradicted by what the Chancellor said at the informal ECOFIN—he seemed to say that we need to have US agreement before we can have stricter rules.
Mel Stride
I thank the hon. Lady for that clarification. I take this in two parts. These are different situations. When it comes to taxation of profits derived from digital platforms, be they social media, search engines or online marketplaces, the critical thing is to ensure that we tax the value that accrues to the interaction of consumers with those marketplaces. We are working with the OECD and the European Union, as the hon. Lady pointed out, to come up with an appropriate way to address that particular challenge of the current international taxation regime. As to the Chancellor’s remarks about whether we might go it alone or have to wait for America, I am not entirely sure that he said what was reported. That is the information I received, although I did notice those comments in the press, as did the hon. Lady.
We have debated mandatory arbitration before. The essential point is that, in order to enter into a DTA, both sides have to agree that it is an appropriate treaty to enter. Both sides have to be comfortable in the round with it. There is no circumstance in which the United Kingdom could therefore force a country against its will to enter into agreement with mandatory binding arbitration.
Anneliese Dodds
Surely it would be helpful, given the differences in resource that could none the less be provided between developing and developed nations, for the Government to carry out that analysis into the use of mandatory binding arbitration, and whether it exemplifies policy clearance for development. It would be wonderful to hear a Treasury Minister say that the Government might consider adopting this and doing so explicitly.
Mel Stride
The Government’s view is that mandatory binding arbitration is a very useful element of these agreements. In the absence of that, the process undertaken might be ultimately inconclusive. In order to ensure that these agreements work efficiently, we believe there is great merit to that approach.
I lastly turn to parliamentary scrutiny. Matters reserved against will be for the Government to determine in time although, as I have indicated, we have already put out preliminary suggestions of what we will do. As time goes forward, this or any other Government may decide to remove some of those reserved powers. It is down to this Committee and this moment to take a decision on whether in the round all those possible changes are agreed to or not. On that basis, I urge that we move forward with the recommendations.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the Committee has considered the draft Double Taxation Relief (Base Erosion and Profit Shifting) Order 2018.
DRAFT DOUBLE TAXATION RELIEF (SWITZERLAND) ORDER 2018
Resolved,
That the Committee has considered the draft Double Taxation (Switzerland) Order 2018.—(Mel Stride.)
DRAFT DOUBLE TAXATION RELIEF AND INTERNATIONAL TAX ENFORCEMENT (UZBEKISTAN) ORDER 2018
Resolved,
That the Committee has considered the draft Double Taxation Relief and International Tax Enforcement (Uzbekistan) Order 2018.—(Mel Stride.)
Stamp Duty Land Tax
Mel Stride Excerpts(6 years, 6 months ago)
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The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride)
With your permission, Mr Speaker, I will make a statement on the quarterly stamp duty land tax statistics published this morning.
As right hon. and hon. Members are aware, the Government announced at autumn Budget 2017 that we were introducing stamp duty relief for first-time buyers, unlocking invaluable support for first-home buyers up and down the country. The relief cuts stamp duty for first-time buyers who purchase a property for less than £500,000. Those who purchase a home for between £300,000 and £500,000 will save £5,000. The relief abolishes stamp duty for first-time buyers who purchase a property for £300,000 or less, and more than 80% of first-time buyers will not pay any stamp duty as a consequence. Although we want to help all buyers, the Government consider that it is fair to target the support where it is needed most. The Government therefore think it only right to reduce the up-front costs that cash-constrained first-time buyers need to pay, giving them much-needed support with their first purchase.
The quarterly stamp duty statistics published this morning reveal, for the first time, the tangible impact of first-time buyers relief. I am pleased to announce that between the coming into effect of the relief on Budget day on 22 November last year and the end of March 2018, a significant 69,000 first-time buyers benefited from it. That figure represents nearly 20% of all residential transactions, and it is broadly in line with the official estimate at autumn Budget 2017.
Over the next five years, the relief is projected to help more than 1 million first-time buyers to get on to the housing ladder. It is part of a broader housing package announced by the Government at autumn Budget last year—an ambitious package of new policies designed to tackle the housing challenge—that consists of wide-ranging planning reform, additional spending and a new agency, Homes England, to work more effectively with the housing market.
Although we are firmly on track to raise annual housing supply to its highest level since the 1970s, we are aware that housing is a complex issue and that there is no single solution to the challenge. We know, for example, that we need to support the private sector and local authorities to convert planning permissions into homes built. As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor set out at spring statement, the Treasury and my hon. Friend the Minister for Housing are working closely together to ensure that that happens. Government will be working with 44 local authorities that have bid into the £4.1 billion housing infrastructure fund to unlock homes in areas of high demand.
We are going further; over the next five years we have committed at least £44 billion of capital funding, loans and guarantees to support the housing market. We will more than double the size of the housing growth partnership with Lloyds banking group to £220 million, to help to provide additional finance for small builders. London will receive an additional £1.7 billion to deliver a further 26,000 affordable homes, including homes for social rent. That will take total affordable housing delivery in London to more than 116,000 by the end of 2021-22.
Housing stock is on track to be higher than ever before during the upcoming decade, and the Government are committed to supporting those people who aspire to make their dream of home ownership a reality sooner rather than later. That is why measures such as the stamp duty relief for first-time buyers are so important. More than 95% of first-time buyers paying stamp duty will benefit from the relief.
The Government are committed to ensuring that everyone in this country can afford to buy a home if they choose to do so, and the Government have taken steps to make home ownership a reality for many more people. Targeted policies such as the first home buyers stamp duty relief are supported by other robust, ambitious and groundbreaking reforms to housing policy in the United Kingdom. Together, they will transform new home creation for years to come.
Anneliese Dodds (Oxford East) (Lab/Co-op)
The Government appear to have arranged to give this statement so that they can pat themselves on the back, while reducing the amount of time spent on customs union with the EU. I appreciate that that issue may be controversial—albeit only for the Government; every other actor seems to feel that some kind of customs union is a good idea—but that should not prevent democracy from running its course on the matter. The Government’s cunning plan to introduce the statement today has spectacularly backfired, because rather than offering an opportunity for congratulation and digression, it has merely provided a chance to indicate the Government’s failure to deal with the housing crisis.
The Government have said—we heard it again just now—that their stamp duty cut is intended to back home ownership, but home ownership has fallen to a 30-year low under this Government. They say that the cut was intended to help first-time buyers, but there are now a million fewer under-45s who own their own home than there were in 2010. Home ownership was up by some 1 million under Labour, but it has fallen since 2010 under Conservative Ministers as part of this Government’s eight years of failure on housing.
At the root of that failure is an inability to increase the supply of genuinely affordable housing. I do not need to set out how the stamp duty cut has failed to deal with that issue; I will use the words of the Office for Budget Responsibility, which stated that
“the main gainers from the policy are people who already own property,”
not first-time buyers. In contrast, measures from the Government to increase supply are woefully inadequate. To take just one example, local authorities will only be able to bid into a pot in order to borrow to build—a farcical situation when demand is so pressing. The number of genuinely affordable homes is declining, not increasing, under this Government.
We parliamentarians see all around us the worst impact of the Government’s failure on housing, whether it is on the people we walk past who are rough sleeping in the city of London—rough sleeping is now at record levels here, as it is in many other cities—or the 120,000 children who are living in temporary accommodation, and whose families come to see us in our constituency surgeries. I am keen to hear the Minister’s response to the question of whether he has commissioned research into the impact of this flagship measure on prices, in the absence of decisive measures to increase affordable supply.
It would be helpful to hear from the Minister how Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs is dealing with what appears to be a quadrupling of money-back claims related to a malfunctioning online calculator. What HMRC rather amusingly—it is not amusing for the people affected—calls a “ready reckoner” appears to be anything but, in view of its failure to take into account relevant stamp duty discounts. I would be grateful to hear from the Minister when it will be amended so that it properly reflects mixed-use properties.
On the subject of confusion over what stamp duty should be paid, it would be good to hear from the Minister about what the Government are doing to deal with those who make bulk purchases of individual flats, thus avoiding the buy-to-let surcharge. Let us imagine, as a hypothetical example, someone purchasing seven flats, worth between £450,000 and £1 million each, in a seaside town. They might try to do so using their own company, rather than as an individual. If so, I would hope that they registered the beneficial ownership of that company with Companies House—a matter that I look forward to debating with the Minister next week in our consideration of the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill. Aside from beneficial ownership, however, by undertaking such a bulk purchase, our imaginary, hypothetical person would avoid a significant amount of stamp duty—say, around £100,000—which could have gone into our cash-strapped NHS. Can the Minister please inform the House what he is doing to deal with that loophole?
Above all, can we please have genuine action from the Government to deal with our appalling housing crisis— we parliamentarians cannot fail to notice that it is causing much misery to our constituents and blighting the lives of many children—rather than misplaced self-congratulation?
Mel Stride
I thank the hon. Lady for her contribution and her questions. She opened by asking what was the motivation for giving this statement today. I reassure her that it is that we believe that housing policy is one of the great issues of our age and we are determined to get on top of it, as the Chancellor set out in the autumn Budget. That is why—to move on to her question about how we will drive up the level of home ownership—the Chancellor made it clear at Budget that a further £15 billion would be made available, taking us up to £44 billion over the next five years, to drive up the supply of new homes. That is alongside planning changes and the review that my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset (Sir Oliver Letwin) is undertaking to ensure that where planning permission is granted, houses are actually built. I suggest that we look at our record. Last year there were 217,000 new properties in this country, which is the largest figure since 2005-06. That indicates that our move towards having 300,000 more properties on the market by the middle of the next decade is realistic.
The hon. Lady asked specific questions about the effect of stamp duty relief on house prices, and she will know that the OBR forecast a small impact of 0.3%. She will also know that that projection did not take into account the various supply-side measures that I have mentioned, and other measures that we have undertaken. She asked about the specific case of properties bought within a corporate wrapper, and I hope she will be familiar with the annual tax on enveloped dwellings, which stands at 15% if the property is put into the wrapper. Indeed, on the basis she outlined where a property is then rented out, ongoing charges recruit tax in that way.
Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
May I draw the attention of the House to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests? I welcome the Minister’s statement, and express my support for stamp duty relief for first-time buyers. That measure exists to reverse the trend of declining home ownership that began in 2003, and it is the right thing to do. Will the Minister confirm the commitment made in the autumn Budget to increase the amount of housing supply delivered by small and medium-sized developers, as they are a crucial part of solving the housing crisis in the UK?
Mr Speaker
The hon. Gentleman should not undersell himself; he is an illustrious estate agent, and I have now drawn wider attention to that important fact.
Mel Stride
My hon. Friend is right to mention smaller builders, and we recognise the importance of ensuring that finance is available to them. They play a key role in providing new housing, and I confirm that the £630 million announced in the Budget for the small-site infrastructure fund will be going ahead, as will measures that we have taken to support bank lending specifically to smaller builders.
Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)
If the Government are serious about boosting housing provision, will the Minister join me in congratulating councils such as Sutton Council, which is building council homes for the first time in 30 years? What more can the Minister do to support it to provide homes that are genuinely affordable?
Mel Stride
I have already, at length, gone through the various measures we have taken to support increased housing supply. Given that I have been urged to stray towards brevity rather than to respond at length, I will leave it there, other than to say that we will have our foot firmly to the floor. When it comes to council housing, we have of course built twice as much since 2010 than the Labour Government built during their 13 years in office.
Mr Speaker
I say to the House that I have not detected much beetling taking place. I exhorted colleagues to beetle across to the Chamber if they wished to take part in the next debate, but by my reckoning, fewer than half the would-be contributors to that debate have landed in the Chamber. I hope there will be some beetling or toddling of a hasty kind pretty soon.
Antoinette Sandbach (Eddisbury) (Con)
Hundreds of families in my constituency have benefited from Help to Buy, and I very much welcome the changes in stamp duty. How many people in the north-west have benefited from those changes?
Mel Stride
I thank my hon. Friend for her question. Mr Speaker, at one point you wanted me to respond rather quickly. If you now wish me to go a little more slowly to allow others to attend the Chamber, I am at your disposal.
Mr Speaker
That is extremely accommodating of the right hon. Gentleman, and I would expect no less of him. He can rest assured that the next debate will start no later than 12.30 pm, and preferably earlier, notwithstanding the fact that his own erudition is endlessly intoxicating.
Mel Stride
Thank you, Mr Speaker. My hon. Friend asked about the north-west, where 6,900 individuals benefited from stamp duty relief between 22 November and 31 March this year.
Dr David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op)
My area has many thousands of extant planning permissions that have yet to be brought forward. How will the Treasury try to get those planning permissions to a state where we can build houses? Is it about time that we had a sensible debate on land value taxation?
Mel Stride
The hon. Gentleman raises an important point: there is little point in land that has planning consent if properties are not swiftly built on it. My right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset (Sir Oliver Letwin) is conducting a review of exactly that matter, and we will come to the House in due course with our proposals.
Jeremy Quin (Horsham) (Con)
Horsham has very high house price multiples, and I welcome the Government’s efforts to help first-time buyers with that vital first step on the ladder. I also welcome the impact of that policy from a macroeconomic perspective. The Financial Policy Committee at the Bank of England has talked about broadening home ownership as a way of encouraging and improving financial stability. That should have an important impact, which I also welcome.
Mel Stride
I thank my hon. Friend for his kind words. As well as the many advantages and benefits of home ownership for individuals, society and the economy, his point about financial stability is right and another reason why the Government are determined to make progress.
Mr Speaker
Order. As colleagues will know if they have studied the Annunciator, the second of the two debates scheduled for this afternoon has been withdrawn, so we have simply one debate on customs and borders. Members will recall that when the House debated estimates on 26 and 27 February, the motions were proposed by the Backbench Business Committee under an arrangement recommended by the Procedure Committee. Today, we have a complementary proceeding of a Backbench Business day in which the motion has been proposed by the Liaison Committee.
Customs and Borders
Mel Stride Excerpts(6 years, 6 months ago)
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The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride)
I congratulate the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) on securing today’s extremely important debate. I thank all Members for their passionate, heartfelt and informed contributions. I do not intend to go through all the contributions, given their volume and the fact I would like to make sure I leave time for any Member who wishes to intervene on me to ask any questions or to make any points. If I have time, I will leave a minute for the right hon. Lady at the end.
A number of important points have been made in this debate. First and foremost is the matter of Northern Ireland and its Irish border. Some Members have suggested that, in fact, we are prepared to jettison the Good Friday agreement, to undermine it in some way or not to stand up for it, which is certainly not the case. We remain entirely committed to the Good Friday agreement, as we do to having no hard border between the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland and, indeed, no effective customs border down the Irish sea.
Lady Hermon
Thank you. It is nice that the Minister regards me as an hon. Friend.
I gently say to the Minister that it would be very helpful in a sensitive situation if the Prime Minister would stop repeating the mantra that no deal is better than a bad deal, because it directly contradicts her pledge, sincerely meant, to uphold the principles of the Good Friday agreement, which I believe she does and intends to do. However, there is a contradiction there, and I am sure the Minister agrees that we do not want to see any risk of a hard border with Ireland. That would lead to violence along the border.
Mel Stride
The position of the Prime Minister and the Government is that we are confident of a deal. In that context, this issue of no deal is not particularly pertinent.
Other important points have been raised. I think everybody recognises the importance of having as frictionless a border as possible. Of course, it is recognised that we would achieve that if we stayed within the customs union or a customs union, which is de facto the same thing, but that is not the same as suggesting that there are not alternative arrangements—I will discuss those alternative arrangements in a moment—that would achieve as good as the same thing as a frictionless border.
Many Members today have raised the importance of being free as a nation to go out and negotiate our own free trade arrangements, which of course means that we need to leave the customs union.
Kirsty Blackman
Does the Financial Secretary believe the trade agreements we negotiate could possibly be better than the trade agreements we currently have and would continue to have as a member of the EU?
Mel Stride
As the hon. Lady knows, we are currently working on transferring the EU’s agreements with third-world countries. Of course, in future we will be free to strike our own FTAs with other countries, which we are currently prohibited from doing.
It is good to hear the hon. Member for Bootle (Peter Dowd) agree with Margaret Thatcher at long last. She stood for free markets, free trade and fiscal responsibility, and I look forward to hearing more of that from him in the years to come.
I have just been informed that I must leave two minutes for the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford, which I will endeavour to do—[Interruption]— although she is generously saying that one minute will be enough.
The hon. Member for Bootle suggested that the Government’s position is confused, although I am not sure whether he was thinking of his own position when he said that. The reality is that the Labour party has a classic fudge on the customs union. It wants to tell everybody that we can somehow be in the customs union while not being a rule taker—that we can somehow negotiate to be in the room when FTAs between the EU and other countries are negotiated. The Labour party accuses us of seeking to cherry-pick, but by its own logic, it is quite clear that this is just not a realistic possibility.
The hon. Gentleman specifically mentioned clause 31 of the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Bill, which will indeed permit the UK to enter into a customs union with another customs union or territory. That is something we will almost certainly wish to do with our Crown dependencies. The clause will therefore not be relevant to the European Union after our departure. The Government are therefore clear that when we leave the European Union we will leave its customs union. That is a matter of fact. The Government have also been clear that forming a new customs union with the EU is not compatible with a meaningful independent trade policy, so we will not be doing that. Outside the EU and a customs union, the UK will be able to sign its own trade deals with our partners around the world.
Mel Stride
An ingenious question; I would expect no less. As my right hon. Friend will know, we are not able to enter into and sign such deals until we have left the EU and, indeed, we are beyond the implementation period. Of course we are working actively on these deals, but saying that does not mean that we will no longer need a deep and special partnership with our nearest trading partner. The EU is still and will remain a significant marketplace for us. Our markets are deeply interconnected, and that will remain the case for the future. That is why the Prime Minister set out the Government’s intention to negotiate the broadest and deepest possible economic partnership covering more sectors and co-operating more fully than any free trade agreement anywhere in the world and recognising the point of deep convergence from which both sides begin.
In leaving the EU customs union, we will be guided by what delivers the greatest economic advantage to the UK, framed by three strategic objectives. The first is continued UK-EU trade that is as frictionless as possible. The second is avoiding a hard border on the island of Ireland. The third is establishing an independent international trade policy.
The Government have already set out two options for our future customs arrangements with the EU that most closely meet these objectives. One is a new customs partnership. In this model, the UK would mirror the EU’s requirements at our border for imports from the rest of the world with a final destination in the EU. This would mean applying the same tariffs and rules of origin as the EU for those goods. By following this approach, we would know that all goods entering the EU via the UK pay the right EU duties, removing the need for customs processes at the UK-EU border.
The other option is a highly streamlined customs arrangement. This approach would involve the introduction of formal customs processes between the UK and the EU, driven by technology, to streamline and enable this model. However, the UK would look to implement a range of measures—both negotiated and unilateral—to minimise friction, together with specific provisions for Northern Ireland. The precise form of any new customs arrangements will of course be subject to negotiation, and we are pursuing both approaches vigorously with our European friends. I look forward to further progress in these talks.
For the reasons I have given, the Government cannot support the motion before us today. As we prepare to leave the European Union, a significant opportunity awaits us—the opportunity to promote our national interest above all else and the opportunity to shape our future trading policy—because when the people of this country voted to leave the European Union, they voted for democratic self-government and to take control of our future trading arrangements. Moving forward, we will seek to maximise our trade, across all countries and markets as we prepare for the challenges and the exciting opportunities ahead, confident as an independent trading nation and proud of our long history as a global champion of free trade.
Oral Answers to Questions
Mel Stride Excerpts(6 years, 7 months ago)
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Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride)
I thank my hon. Friend for his question. The Government are bearing down tirelessly on the tax burden on businesses of all sizes, reducing corporation tax from 28% for large companies in 2010 to 19% today, and for small businesses from 21% to 19%. We will go still further, reducing the burden to 17% by 2020. For unincorporated businesses, we are, of course, increasing the personal allowance, in the previous Budget, to £11,850. That will increase further to £12,500 in 2020—further relief to many small businesses.
Mr Robertson
I thank the Minister for that encouraging answer. Businesses are, of course, unpaid tax collectors for the Exchequer and the Federation of Small Businesses recently estimated that businesses spend, on average, three working weeks a year on tax compliance. Is there anything further that the Minister can do to reduce that kind of expensive burden on businesses?
Mel Stride
I thank my hon. Friend for raising the FSB’s report. I have not only read it, but met the FSB to discuss the report in detail. I highlight to the House two of its important recommendations: one is around better guidance on taxation, and I have tasked officials on that mission within HMRC; and the second is Making Tax Digital, which we are rolling out for VAT-registered companies in 2019. The report states that this
“presents an opportunity to simplify and speed up tax compliance.”
Ruth George (High Peak) (Lab)
Is the Minister not concerned that the Office for Budget Responsibility report into welfare trends from January this year estimates that £1.5 billion of support for small businesses will be taken from them through the minimum income floor in universal credit? The Select Committee on Work and Pensions heard that 70% of small businesses currently last for 18 months, but that that will reduce to 20% for those on universal credit. Small businesses will be strangled at birth.
Mel Stride
The hon. Lady neglects to mention the fact that small business confidence in the UK is now in positive territory for the first time in many years. We have gone to great lengths within the tax system, as I have just explained, to reduce the burden on small businesses. We rolled out £9 billion of business rates relief in the 2016 Budget and a further £2.3 billion of relief in the autumn Budget last year. We will continue to be on the side of small businesses.
Derek Thomas (St Ives) (Con)
A significant number of businesses in west Cornwall and the constituency of St Ives, which I represent, are facing extreme hardship because of business rate increases in 2017 and 2018. This is becoming a burden that is too great for them to bear. What immediate help can the Minister make available to these hard-working business owners?
Mel Stride
As I have just identified, the Government have done a huge amount to reduce the burden of business rates. We recognise the important fact that these taxes need to be paid, irrespective of whether businesses are profitable or otherwise. That is why we have gone to such lengths, providing £9 billion of relief in 2016, including transitional relief for those facing the largest potential increases in business rates, and a further £2.3 billion by way of bringing forward by two years the change in the indexation of business rates from retail prices index to consumer prices index, saving businesses £2.3 billion over the next few years.
Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)
Business rates are really hitting businesses in York, particularly in the retail sector. This is having a huge impact on our city. On 8 March 2017, the Chancellor promised this House a complete review of business rates, yet we have only seen sticking plasters from the Government. When will that review begin?
Mel Stride
The business rates review is being undertaken by the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government.
Andrea Jenkyns (Morley and Outwood) (Con)
Mr Alister Jack (Dumfries and Galloway) (Con)
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride)
There can be no doubt that this Government’s record on reducing corporation tax from 28% in 2010 to 19% now, and further on down to 17% in 2020, has driven growth, kept prices down, pushed wages up and, indeed, led to more employment. Since 2010, we have seen more than 3 million more people in employment, and, as the Chief Secretary to the Treasury has just outlined, the lowest unemployment since 1975.
Mel Stride
My hon. Friend uses the expression “play by the rules”. I should make it very clear to the House that those that do not play by the rules will be clamped down on by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. We have brought in £175 billion in respect of clamping down on avoidance, evasion and non-compliance since 2010. We have, as my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has outlined, the lowest tax gap in our history, at 6%. Those who play by the rules will benefit from our pro-business policies: bringing taxes down, providing relief on business rates, and other measures such as the employment allowance, worth £3,000 for the first employee as a relief on national insurance contributions.
Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)
When it comes to employment and wages, and the impact that corporation tax cuts have had, we have heard a lot of crowing from Ministers this morning, but we all know that our economy is wildly different, depending on where people live. Has the Minister asked for a distributional analysis of the impacts that he has just been talking about?
Mel Stride
We have debated at great length the issue of distributional analysis, in this Chamber and around the Finance Bill and other measures. The hon. Lady will know that all tax measures are subject to TINs and to various assessments. We are also bound by the Equality Act 2010 when we take decisions in respect of taxation. As a Minister, I can assure her that I take my duties in that respect extremely seriously.
Colin Clark (Gordon) (Con)
Businesses in my constituency welcome the cut in corporation tax, but does not my right hon. Friend share my concern that businesses in Gordon are being damaged by punitive business rates and the highest income tax rates in the United Kingdom?
Mel Stride
My hon. Friend raises an important issue, which is probably best listened to very carefully by some of those on the Opposition Benches. I can only speak for the UK Government here in this House, and we will continue to be on the side of businesses, small and large, to ensure that their tax burden is as low as possible.
Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
Lines ag and bg of the spring 2017 Budget predicted that the cuts in corporation tax would cost the Treasury over £24 billion by 2022. If the Treasury had had that money to invest in infrastructure and construction, how many well paid construction jobs could the money have created?
Mel Stride
Let me make two simple points. First, corporation tax cuts are clearly to the benefit of businesses who employ people, create wealth and generate the taxes we need to fund our vital public services. Secondly, we have cut corporation tax from 28% to 19% since 2010, and the corporate tax take has risen by 50%.
Mr Speaker
A moment ago the Financial Secretary was banging on about TIMS. I was not informed about this matter, but the Clerk has consulted his scholarly cranium and he tells me that it stands for Treasury information management systems.
Mr Speaker
Oh, TINs! Well, I am sure everybody attending to our proceedings was perfectly well aware of what the right hon. Gentleman had in mind. I am sure I was in a minority of one in not knowing. And what are those pigs I see flying in front of my very eyes?
Dr Paul Williams (Stockton South) (Lab)
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride)
Progress has been excellent on the Building our Future programme. We have now secured locations for 12 of the 13 regional hubs and negotiations are continuing on the final site.
Dr Williams
The HMRC office in Stockton South is closing. Hundreds of staff are being offered jobs in Newcastle, which involves a three-hour minimum round trip that people say they cannot make, because their family lives are built around a job that they are proud of. Will the Minister please meet me given what we now know about the impact that the closure will have on Teesside and its people?
Mel Stride
The hon. Gentleman will know that all staff who may be affected will have face-to-face consultations with HMRC staff a year before any changes occur. Some 90% on average of those across the programme will be in a position of having left employment or retired, or finding it perfectly acceptable to move, in this case to Newcastle. I would be delighted to meet the hon. Gentleman to discuss the issue.
John Howell (Henley) (Con)
Nigel Huddleston (Mid Worcestershire) (Con)
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride)
Perhaps I am in need of the gym, Mr Speaker.
I shall take that as an early Budget representation, and my hon. Friend should be aware that we already have various tax-free reliefs in respect of health in the workplace—check-ups, eye tests, the cycle to work scheme, on-site workplace gym membership and welfare counselling. Of course, our soft drinks industry levy has led a number of companies to improve the quality of their products healthwise.
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)
In advance of today’s debate on Syria, I welcome financial measures to sanction the Syrian regime. According to past Government figures, £151 million of assets belonging to leading figures in the Assad regime in Syria have been frozen by authorities here. Since then, 261 Syrian individuals have been listed as financial sanctions targets in the UK. Can the Chancellor tell the House what the Treasury’s best and latest estimate is of the total value of assets held in the UK by individuals connected with the Syrian regime?
Alex Chalk (Cheltenham) (Con)
Mel Stride
As my hon. Friend will know, this morning we were given the good news that we are now back in positive real-wage territory. He will also know from the projections of the Office for Budget Responsibility at the time of the last Budget that we anticipate an increase in real wages throughout the projection period.
Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab)
Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab)
Mel Stride
I thank the hon. Lady for her question. Perhaps this is something that I could take up with her offline so that I fully comprehend the exact point she is raising.
Alex Burghart (Brentwood and Ongar) (Con)
Last year, more businesses were created in the UK than in any other developed economy. Does that not show that the Government’s policy towards businesses is working, and what will the Treasury do to build on that success?
Social Mobility and the Economy
Mel Stride Excerpts(6 years, 7 months ago)
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The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship again, Mr Davies.
May I say how grateful we all are that my right hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Justine Greening) secured this debate? She has done so on the back of an outstanding record in government, including at the highest level. She brings to our debates a burning strength within her as to the importance of social mobility.
During this debate a number of Members have referred to their backgrounds, which have informed in many ways the views they have reached on social mobility and their desire to do something about it. My parents left school at the ages of 15 and 14 because of economic hardship, and the thought of them ever having become a doctor or a scientist, or even having gone to university, is about as fanciful as any one of us stepping on the surface of the moon. It would have been entirely and utterly impossible. My great break in life was when I got a free place at the grammar school, and I took that opportunity and never looked back. I therefore share with many of those present the burning drive to do something about the issues that we have discussed.
We can all agree that far. The question is, how do we approach these issues? As has been evident in the debate, many different strands are involved. The hon. Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown) mentioned housing, for example, which is one component. There are of course many other components, but I will focus on a couple of key areas, if I may, because they relate to the worthy and outstanding initiative launched today by my right hon. Friend the Member for Putney: educational skills, and the economy and business.
We should not overlook the progress we have made, in particular on education and skills, some of it on my right hon. Friend’s watch. We now have 1.9 million more children in good and outstanding schools than we had in 2010, and a record number of young people in education and training. We have more disabled and disadvantaged young people going to university than at any time in our history. We have driven up standards right across the piece. There is no point in getting people into education and training unless we give them good education and training that will be useful to get them work in future. We are achieving that: the EBacc is driving up standards and we have opened up access, particularly in the case of our great universities.
We recognise that we need to do more, so we recently invested £72 million in the 12 opportunity areas across the country, with £50 million allocated to early language and literature skills and £250 million to technical education. We have delivered £406 million for education and skills within the industrial strategy, particularly focusing on maths, digital skills and technology. My right hon. Friend mentioned apprenticeships and T-levels; there have been 3 million new apprenticeship starts since 2010 and 1.2 million since 2005.
My hon. Friend the Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (Luke Graham) mentioned the importance of not writing people off early in their career and the idea of lifelong learning. We are launching our national retraining scheme to ensure that we have upskilling at the centre of our offer. He mentioned the economy, and there is no doubt that providing a strong economy and employment is the best way to get people moving up in society and, in particular, avoiding poverty.
Peter Kyle
There are a lot of things I would like to comment on, but the Minister mentions the economy; is it not true that we live in a world where if someone is born into a family that has assets, they are almost certain to succeed in life, but if they are talent-rich but asset-poor they are not? What will the Minister do to restructure the economy so that those born into families who do not own property and do not have savings have a much better chance of success?
Mel Stride
On the specific issue of wealth, the hon. Gentleman will find that income inequality is at its lowest level for about 30 years. If he looks at the tax system, which includes property and assets, as he will know, the top 1% of earners in this country pay 28% of income tax. He will know that the national living wage is being increased by 4.4% as of this month with the start of a new tax year, and he will know that the very lowest-paid in our country have had a real-terms pay increase of 7% since 2015. I hope Members will recognise that the Government are on the side of the poorest in our society and are actively engaged in dealing with those issues.
David Linden
Will the Minister put on the record once again that the national living wage does not extend to under-25s?
Mel Stride
The hon. Gentleman and I have been in several debates where he has raised exactly that point time after time, and I am grateful to him for raising it again. There is an element of affordability to that; there is also the fact that there is a minimum wage, which we are increasing through time, for those who are under 25. We have been able to provide the above-inflation increase to the national living wage because our stewardship of the economy has allowed us to. The problem with some of the prescriptions that we hear is that they are big on spending and borrowing money and increasing taxation, and I am afraid that is just not a recipe for being able to make the kind of progress on the national living wage that this Government have been making.
I will move on to the overall economic progress that we have made as a Government. We have a near record level of employment in our country; we have more women in work than at any time in our history; and we have virtually the lowest level of unemployment for 45 years—youth unemployment is down by 40% since 2010. We have had five years of continuous growth, and the deficit and the debt are both falling.
Sarah Champion
I recognise the things that the Minister mentions, and of course they are to be welcomed, but we are talking about young people’s aspiration not just to get a part-time job in the corner shop but to become an MP, a judge or a surgeon. Surely that is what we are lacking, and that is why I hope he supports the pledge of the right hon. Member for Putney.
Mel Stride
I do not disagree with the hon. Lady, but my point is that unless there is a successful economy, with jobs, growth and all the things that this Government are delivering, it becomes more and more difficult to provide social mobility. This Government are providing all the things that I have outlined, and that is driving social mobility.
The way that the economy is managed has an important impact on poverty, which, as we know, is one of the greatest evils that hold people back. Since 2010 we have a million fewer people in absolute low income—a record low. The hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) raised the issue of child poverty; we have 300,000 fewer children in absolute low income. There are 200,000 fewer pensioners in absolute income poverty and 500,000 fewer adults of working age in absolute low income since 2010. In fact, of the 28 EU member states, our country has the fifth lowest level of persistent poverty. That is not the same as saying that where we are is acceptable or that we do not have to do more, but we should recognise that progress is being made.
Doing more is right at the heart of what my right hon. Friend the Member for Putney suggests. The Government warmly welcome her initiative; she rightly said that a lack of social mobility leads to talent going to waste. I totally endorse that. She referred to the important link between productivity and social mobility, a point that my hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Gillian Keegan) also raised. It is a simple fact that living standards can increase dramatically if we get productivity right. In fact, if we had the same level of productivity in our country as there is in Germany, our economy would be 30% larger than it is. I am wholeheartedly with her on that.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Putney also raised the issue of Brexit and talked about the freedoms that will come with it as a moment for change. That was an apposite and far-sighted point to make. She urged companies to engage in her social mobility pledge, focusing on partnerships with schools and work experience. My right hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford (David Evennett) spoke passionately about his work experience when he was a younger man—or should I say an even younger man—than he is today.
On companies’ recruitment practices, my right hon. Friend the Member for Putney raised the issue of name-blind applications and the work that Clifford Chance has done, as well as the contextual recruitment carried out by Deloitte, Linklaters and others, which takes into account applicants’ backgrounds as well as the contents of their curriculum vitae. If I may paraphrase her, it is a case of employers being blind to everything but someone’s suitability to do the job. We can all unite around that. She also raised the important matter of degree apprenticeships and made an interesting point about how the apprenticeship levy is used and whether it could be directed in ways that may be more helpful to the issues that we are debating.
My right hon. Friend raised the important point of how we measure social mobility and human capital. Personally, I think that is an area that would be worthy of greater attention. I do not believe that the Office for National Statistics or any other such bodies produce such statistics, and it may well be worth us looking at that more closely. She raised the importance of working with others, such as companies in our constituencies and organisations such as the CBI, the FSB and the others that she has already brought on board, for which I give her huge credit.
It may be impossible to discuss such a deep and important issue as social mobility without being partisan, and almost inevitably there have been elements of partisanship in the debate. But my right hon. Friend should be congratulated on at least uniting us in spirit on an issue that we are all determined to confront. She left us with a powerful legacy from her time as Secretary of State for Education. I have a feeling that there is far more to come from her; that she is far from finished in her drive for a fairer and better world, with social mobility beating alive, loud and whole at its heart, and I thank her for bringing forward this debate.
Double Taxation Convention: UK and Cyprus
Mel Stride Excerpts(6 years, 7 months ago)
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The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride)
A Double Taxation Convention with Cyprus was signed on 22 March 2018. The text of the Convention is available on HM Revenue and Customs’ pages of the gov.uk website and will be deposited in the Libraries of both Houses. The text will be scheduled to a draft Order in Council and laid before the House of Commons in due course.
[HCWS605]
Digital Taxation
Mel Stride Excerpts(6 years, 7 months ago)
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Chris Philp
I am sorry that that more attractive alternative did not present itself. However, it is of course an enormous pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dame Cheryl. I add my congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Harborough (Neil O'Brien) on securing the debate.
I am not sure I want to confess this in public, but I will: when this document, “Corporate tax and the digital economy: position paper update”, arrived in my inbox this month, I quivered with excitement because the topic is so important. I am delighted to see the Government, and particularly the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, my right hon. Friend the Member for Central Devon (Mel Stride), who I gather has been upgraded to be the Paymaster General as well—
Chris Philp
He is a man of many talents. I was delighted to see him taking the initiative in this important area.
It is worth saying that significant progress has been made in the past eight years, as some colleagues have mentioned. The country’s tax gap is at just 6%, down from 8% in 2010, and is the lowest among OECD countries, which is a very good thing. The amount of corporation tax that we have collected has gone up from about £35 billion to about £55 billion in the past eight years, despite the fact that, as my hon. Friend the Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Jayawardena) mentioned, the rate at which it is levied has gone down. That is all extremely welcome, and the Government are to be warmly commended for that progress.
It is, however, also true—I think this view commands widespread support—that a number of typically large multinational companies, often providing digital services, such as Google and Facebook, have succeeded in organising their affairs, fully in conformity with current international tax laws, such that they manage to argue that the substance of their economic activity takes place in very low-tax jurisdictions. Those jurisdictions are often in the Caribbean, and I suspect that they are not selected for their clement climate. That situation strikes me as fundamentally unfair and unreasonable. The Government have, of course, already taken a lead in the matter, via the base erosion and profit shifting initiative, including such things as limiting the deductibility of interest expense to 30% of earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortisation. The UK Government led on that, and are to be strongly congratulated on it. However, there is scope to go significantly further.
It just does not seem right or fair that a company such as Google, with revenues in relation to UK customers in the order of £4 billion, pays virtually no tax by successfully arguing that the substance of its economic activity lies elsewhere. That is why I was so excited by the position paper update, published a few weeks ago. The approach laid out in the excellent position paper, which by the way I fully support, is a multilateral one of trying on an international basis to redefine economic activity to account for the value created by users. It is exactly the right thing to do, and I hope we are successful in that. However, I suspect that as with any multilateral enterprise, it will take time to get agreement with many other countries, particularly when some of the companies concerned will use their influence to try to slow things down and stymie progress. While it is certainly right to take a multilateral approach to changing the way we define economic activity, it is important to have a plan B that could be implemented much more quickly.
The position paper deals with that admirably. It discusses a tax on sales and, as hon. Members have said, the European Union is looking at that. I fully support that approach. A threshold of the kind that we have talked about, to exclude small and even medium-sized companies, is the right thing. The number that I heard mentioned—3% of sales—seems reasonable. A point that I want to make more for the 27 European countries than for us is that care should be taken to ensure that the EU does not use it as a pretext for retaining the tax receipts and developing a European Union treasury function for the first time. That will not, I think, concern us, but it might concern the other 27 members.
I advocate that if the European Union does not move quickly enough and implement the sales tax in a timely fashion—and by “timely” I mean that I hope it would happen in the next 12 to 24 months—the UK should take unilateral action. My hon. Friend the Member for North East Hampshire made a cautionary point about not making the UK uncompetitive, but of course the tax would be based not on where the company was domiciled but on where its sales occurred and where its users were. It would not be a disincentive to locating in the United Kingdom, either for permanent establishment or locus of incorporation. A sales tax or, indeed, a user tax would not violate the principle of competitiveness to which my hon. Friend rightly referred. We are generally speaking the second largest market for the companies in question, behind the United States of America. We are significantly larger than Germany because our economy tends to be rather more intensively digital. I do not think that, if we took unilateral action, Google or Facebook would suddenly refuse to do business in the United Kingdom. If they did, they would be pulling out of their second largest global market.
I suspect that unilateral action on a sales tax while we are a member of the European Union—and, I suspect, during the transition period up to December 2020—would probably be classed as VAT, or sufficiently similar to VAT to fall foul of European regulations. If we have to consider unilateral action, which I advocate and support, prior to our exit from the EU or the end of the transition period, something other than a sales tax would have to be considered. Something we might consider that would not fall foul of EU regulation on sales taxes and VAT would be a tax based on users. We might set a user-based tax of a certain pound amount per active user, for example. That would, again, apply only to the very largest companies with, perhaps, a UK turnover in excess of £100 million. That would make sure that they made a reasonable contribution before we managed to come up with a multilateral solution at global level or a sales tax at European level. It would, I think, be a good move. It would not undermine our competitiveness and it would mean that those companies were seen to make a fair contribution.
The proceeds of such a tax could usefully be applied in the area of business rates. Several colleagues have mentioned that, and I am sure that small businesses in all our constituencies have raised the issue of business rates with us. Of course, digital companies such as Google and Facebook—and even Amazon, because it operates from large warehouses in remote locations that do not have a high rateable value—pay little in business rates. They also pay little in corporation tax, although of course they pay their full share of payroll taxes. It is inherently rather unfair: local high street businesses pay their full share of business rates and corporation taxes. So some of the money raised by the digital tax, whatever form it might take, could be applied to offer business rate relief, particularly to smaller businesses—perhaps those with less than £28,000 a year of rateable value.
I should be interested to hear the Financial Secretary’s response to the one or two ideas that I have set out. Really, however, I want to express my strong and enthusiastic support for the course that he has laid out. It is a great pleasure to come here and support it.
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dame Cheryl. It was a pleasure to hear the opening speech, because it was insightful, clear and well-structured and set out. Given that this is a highly technical subject, that was quite an achievement. It was also extremely thoughtful. It has been remarked by a number of hon. Members that there are quite a few of us on this side of the House. That is because we care deeply about issues such as tax. Traditionally, we like to see taxes as low as possible, as my hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Mrs Badenoch) rightly pointed out, but we also recognise that tax is important, because it provides the finances for vital public services—our national health service, our social care, our armed forces, our police, our teachers and so on. We also recognise, as several hon. Members have pointed out, that it is important in terms of fairness and of having a level playing field—particularly, in that context, for those hard-working small businesses that occupy our high streets, which have to pay their business rates, a tax which cannot be avoided whether a business is profitable or unprofitable. On this side of the House, we recognise the paramount importance of getting to grips with the issues we have been discussing today.
Hon. Members have, understandably, raised the issues of avoidance, evasion and non-compliance. Conservative Members have dealt at length on the great success we have had in that respect. We have raised or protected £175 billion since 2010. We have one of the lowest tax gaps in the world—the difference between what we could collect and actually do collect—at 6%. HMRC is doing a great job, by and large, in ensuring that those who are due to pay tax do indeed pay it.
It is important to point out, as several hon. Members have, that what we are discussing today is predominantly not about avoidance and evasion. That is an important distinction. Whatever we may feel about tech companies or internet-based businesses—and they do not always acquit themselves admirably—the accusation is not in any way that they are avoiding taxation, but simply that the current international tax regime does not effectively accommodate the way they generate value within the United Kingdom.
If this is not about avoidance, what exactly is it all about? It is about the way the current international tax regime assesses taxation and where corporation tax should fall due based on where the economic activity occurs. As my hon. Friend the Member for Harborough (Neil O’Brien) rightly pointed out, typically we would be looking at the factories, the employment of people, where the intellectual property lies and where the decisions around risk and investment in the business are taken. We know that for certain types of digital platform—typically, the search engines, the online marketplaces and the social media providers—a lot of the value is generated via the interaction between the end user and the platform itself. Therein rests the actual value. The question we then have to ask is how do we effectively address that situation and ensure that where businesses generate huge sums of profit within the United Kingdom, a fair share of corporation tax falls due to them.
We have already brought in a measure, announced in the autumn Budget, to tax the royalties that flow to intellectual property held in zero and low-tax jurisdictions. This is very much a front-foot approach to those digital-based businesses that are shifting profits out of the United Kingdom in tax terms. We are consulting on that and legislation will come forward in due course. We expect it to raise around £800 million by 2023. That is a significant sum. It is the kind of amount that could potentially be useful to ease the pressure on our high streets, as many have called for this afternoon.
The position paper last year and the March paper we just introduced by way of consultation were mentioned. In those papers, we have suggested that our preferred route is a globally negotiated deal with our partners in not just the European Union but the wider OECD. That is to ensure that any agreement works effectively, and that we avoid the problems associated with unilateral action, such as situations of double taxation between ourselves and countries that we trade with around the globe. However, in that paper we do set out an interim position.
I should make clear the Government’s intention that if we do not move forward at sufficient pace to put the appropriate measures in place, we will seriously consider an interim position—a unilateral move, which my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Chris Philp) was keen to see. Under those circumstances, we would potentially look at a tax based on revenue, recognising that we do not want to capture market entrants or early-stage companies that may have some level of revenues and therefore fall to this type of tax, but which could be unprofitable at that stage of their development. This is where the whole issue of de minimis and thresholds comes in, which hon. Members have spoken about this afternoon.
In that context, it might be worth briefly referring to the proposals put forward by the European Union in its recent paper. As my hon. Friend the Member for Harborough pointed out, it has suggested that a 3% tax on revenues would be appropriate, raising about €5 billion, but that there should be a de minimis on the basis of those companies’ worldwide turnover and the level of taxable revenues that would fall due within the European Union. It also makes the point that it is important, within EU domestic tax legislation and the treaties between member states, that we have a definition of the concept of significant economic presence, which captures this idea of creating value in the way that I described. It also recognised the importance of going further and factoring in those definitions within the bilateral or multilateral trade agreements and tax treaties that we have with the rest of the world—with non-EU member states. That is to capture the fact that it is often companies outside of the EU that are transacting in this manner—many of those businesses are in the United States.
I will conclude by saying that we are very serious about this matter. I have a great deal of time and some affection for the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Bootle (Peter Dowd), despite the red book that beats in his breast pocket as I address him. In response to him I have to say that it is this party, the Conservative party in government, that is doing something about this issue. It is not the Labour party that ever got on top of avoidance, evasion and non-compliance—just look at the 6% compared with the 8%-plus under Labour. We are the party that is bearing down on these issues.
My hon. Friend the Member for Harborough, who will wrap up the debate in a moment, has my personal assurance that we will continue to take this matter extremely seriously. We will press ahead with vigour on the basis that, ultimately, it is only fair to do so.
Draft Finance Act 2003, Part 3 (Amendment) Order 2018
Mel Stride Excerpts(6 years, 8 months ago)
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The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Finance Act 2003, Part 3 (Amendment) Order 2018.
May I say what a pleasure it is to serve under your capable chairmanship, Mr Davies? The order provides for a technical amendment to part 3 of the Finance Act 2003, which makes provision for civil financial penalties where there has been a failure to comply with a duty, obligation, requirement or condition in specified tax legislation.
One such piece of tax legislation is the Community customs code: the body of European legislation that lays down the rules and procedures applicable to goods brought into or taken out of the customs territory. In May 2016, it was replaced by the Union customs code, more commonly known as the UCC. As a result, the Finance Act 2003 is out of date and its references to “Community customs code” need to be changed to “Union customs code”.
The order ensures that UK domestic law cross-refers to the most recent version of EU legislation with which it was intended to operate. It does not seek to alter materially the scope of the power to impose penalties; the underlying substantial legislation will remain the same.
The order is particularly important because it continues to preserve the capability of our customs officers to issue a civil financial penalty when there has been a breach of a duty obligation, requirement or condition of the Union customs code, which is an important part of HM Revenue and Customs’ overall compliance strategy. I therefore commend the order to the Committee.
Mel Stride
I thank the shadow Minister, as always, for her participation on these occasions. I had thought that this might be a very short Committee, given that this is a highly technical change. As always, however, the hon. Lady raised important points, which I will go through.
First, the hon. Lady raised the TIIN and its accessibility—whether the URL was correct. I will have to get back to her on that, but I will certainly look into it because I recognise the importance of those assessments to her. I point out that there is no change in the scope or the penalties involved in this particular case or, indeed, in the manner of operation of this particular regime. However, it is right that that information should be properly accessible.
The hon. Lady asked why it had taken so long—since 2016, in fact—to bring in this measure. The answer is that until recently the legal advice, such as it was, was that there was not actually a requirement to make this change as the cross-reference was fairly obvious. However, more recent advice has suggested that we should make the change.
The hon. Lady asked about the number of penalties issued under this regime. Between March 2015 and 2016 a total of 466 penalties were issued, with a total value of £577,712; since the UCC was introduced, in 2016-17, 345 penalties have been issued.
The hon. Lady asked about the capacity of HMRC to handle the penalties and this particular regime. I point her to the fact that HMRC, as she knows, has an outstanding record on avoidance, evasion and non-compliance: £175 billion has been brought in or protected since 2010, and we have one of the lowest tax gaps, at 6%, in the world. I am confident that it is well resourced for this. She asked specifically about the number of HMRC staff who will be available. As she mentioned, there will be up to 5,000 additional staff, given the Brexit changes and the customs changes that are to follow. That is not a figure that the Treasury has brought forward; it is a figure that the head of HMRC has come forward with. We and my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer have made it clear that we will ensure that sufficient funding and resources are available for HMRC to carry out the important work that it will have, going forward. That is why last year about £45 million was made available to HMRC for Brexit-related matters and, in the recent spring statement, the Chancellor made it clear that a further £260 million will be made available for the next year.
The hon. Lady referred to the number of cases being handled by customs officers in the United States and Canada. Of course, those are different regimes, with different elements to them, but perhaps it is just indicative of the efficiency of HMRC and customs that they cover such a large amount of work with an efficient number of personnel. On that note, I hope that we can agree the order.
Question put and agreed to.
Draft Scottish Rates of Income Tax (Consequential Amendments) Order 2018
Mel Stride Excerpts(6 years, 8 months ago)
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The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride)
I beg to move,
That the Committee has considered the draft Scottish Rates of Income Tax (Consequential Amendments) Order 2018.
May I say what a pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David? The order updates legislation to reflect structural income tax changes announced by the Scottish Government and includes a number of consequential amendments to tax reliefs, which remain reserved. The changes will ensure certainty and consistency for taxpayers across the United Kingdom, no matter where they are based.
The Government have transferred extensive income tax powers to the Scottish Government, ensuring that they are more accountable to Scottish taxpayers. Since April 2017, the Scottish Government have been able to vary the income tax rates and thresholds, except for the personal allowance for non-savings, non-dividends income.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
I thank the Financial Secretary for giving way so early in his contribution. Does he agree this statutory instrument means that the vow made during the independence referendum to devolve as much as possible under agreement to the Scottish Parliament has been approved?
Mel Stride
I would say that it is entirely in line with the vows we made at that time, and indeed the Scottish Government have exercised their right under the Scotland Act 2016 to vary Scottish tax rates—both the thresholds and the marginal rates. The Scottish Government used those powers at their recent budget to make a number of changes, including the introduction of a new starter rate of 19%.
Stephen Kerr (Stirling) (Con)
I am grateful to the Government for stepping in to sort out the mess that the Scottish National party Government have created in Scotland. Are not the facts that the SNP did not consult anyone in the Treasury at Westminster about the changes it was about to make and the impact they would have on marriage allowance and on pensions?
Mel Stride
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. In the spirit of moving forward positively, I shall leave it for his remarks to be placed on the record as he has seen fit.
As I was saying, the changes included the introduction of a new starter rate of 19%, an intermediate rate of 21%, and increases in the higher rate to 41% and in the top rate to 46%. The Scotland Act passed the powers to make consequential amendments to primary legislation via a statutory instrument, where required to respond to changes made by the Scottish Government.
The order makes changes to reflect the new income tax rates so that certain tax reliefs continue to work as intended when the changes take effect in April. It will ensure that those in the new Scottish starter and intermediate rate bands continue to receive marriage allowance at the current rate of 20%. It will also ensure that Scottish taxpayers continue to get the right amount of relief on charitable donations and claim the right amount of pensions tax relief under the relief at source mechanism, and that those who have deferred their state pension continue to pay tax at their marginal rate on a lump sum.
The order also makes minor changes to the Income Tax Act 2007, the Taxes Management Act 1970, the Income Tax (Trading and Other Income) Act 2005, the Finance (No. 2) Act 2005, the Finance Act 2016 and the Scottish Rate of Income Tax (Consequential Amendments) Order 2015, to reflect the new taxes.
The changes will ensure that the tax system remains fair and consistent and that there are no complex tax relief rules depending on where in the United Kingdom a taxpayer is resident. They will ensure that those reliefs and wider tax legislation continue to work as intended and demonstrate our continuing commitment to making the Scotland Act and devolution work. I commend the order to the Committee.
Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
I appreciate that the UK Government are introducing enabling legislation to ensure that the Scottish rate of income tax can apply and that Scotland will therefore be the fairest tax part of the United Kingdom.
Mel Stride
I hope that the Committee will agree to the order.
Question put and agreed to.
Leaving the EU: UK Ports (Customs)
Mel Stride Excerpts(6 years, 8 months ago)
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Urgent Questions are proposed each morning by backbench MPs, and up to two may be selected each day by the Speaker. Chosen Urgent Questions are announced 30 minutes before Parliament sits each day.
Each Urgent Question requires a Government Minister to give a response on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)
(Urgent Question): To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make a statement on customs clearance arrangements at UK ports after the UK leaves the European Union.
The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride)
The Government have been clear that in leaving the European Union the UK will also leave its customs union, allowing us to establish and enhance our trading relationships with old allies and new friends around the world. The Government have also set out that in leaving the EU customs union, we will be guided by what delivers the greatest economic advantage to the United Kingdom and by three strategic objectives: continued UK-EU trade that is as frictionless as possible; avoiding a hard border on the island of Ireland; and establishing an independent international trade policy.
As we implement the decision of the British people to leave the EU at the end of March 2019, we want a deep and special partnership with the European Union. The Government set out in our future partnership paper last summer two options for our future customs arrangements—two options that most closely meet these objectives. One is a highly streamlined customs arrangement. That approach comprises a number of measures to help to minimise barriers to trade, from negotiating the continuation of some existing trade facilitations to the introduction of new technology-based solutions. The other is a new customs partnership, which is an unprecedented and innovative approach under which the UK would mirror the EU’s requirements for imports from the rest of the world that are destined for the EU, removing a need for a formal customs border between the UK and the EU. Those models were detailed again in the Government’s White Paper last October, and by the Prime Minister in her Mansion House speech and subsequent statement to the House. We look forward to discussing both those options with our European partners and with businesses in both the UK and the EU as negotiations progress.
Hilary Benn
I am grateful to the Minister for that reply, but when was the Transport Secretary proposing to tell the House—or indeed him—about the new policy of not checking goods at Dover after we leave the EU, as opposed to telling the BBC last Thursday:
“We don’t check lorries now—we’re not going to be checking lorries in Dover in the future ”?
Given that the Government are committed to leaving the customs union, but that all free trade agreements involve some checks at borders, how exactly can this be squared with no checks at all? Which border crossings will be covered by the no-checks policy? Will they just be ro-ro ports, for example? Are the Government confident that World Trade Organisation rules allow for not applying certain customs checks at some ports but not others? Which checks do the Government intend to forgo? Have the Government had any discussions with the French, Belgian or Dutch authorities about whether they intend to apply a reciprocal approach at Calais or other channel ports? Will there be no checks on goods that have arrived in Dover from outside the EU? What risk assessment has been undertaken and will Ministers publish it?
When is Parliament going to see the information and analysis that has apparently been shared with businesses— it is reported that they have been required to sign confidentiality agreements—about possible new customs arrangements? Lastly, when are Ministers finally going to realise that if they actually want frictionless trade with the EU and to keep an open border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, the best way to achieve that is to remain in a customs union?
Mel Stride
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for asking a variety of questions about what the Secretary of State for Transport said last Thursday. In addition to the remarks that the right hon. Gentleman mentioned, the Secretary of State also said that
“we will not in any circumstances create a hard border in Dover that requires us to stop every lorry in the port of Dover”.
That is absolutely right. The right hon. Gentleman will know that the discussions that we have had with other authorities in the EU27 are formal discussions, because the negotiations that we have been having with the EU have not been possible. However, some informal discussions have taken place.
The right hon. Gentleman raises the issue of confidentiality agreements for those with whom Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs is in discussions. As I am sure he will know, this is an entirely normal state of affairs for such discussions. Incidentally, this works both ways, in that while there is confidentiality on the part of those private sector organisations, that is also binding on the Government, as anything of a commercially sensitive nature will not be divulged by the Government either.
The right hon. Gentleman raised the issue of Northern Ireland, on which we have made our position extremely clear: there will be no return to the hard border of the past. As we have made it clear to the EU27, we will not accept a situation in which we have a customs border down the Irish sea. We will respect the Belfast agreement, and we are engaged in further discussions with the Irish Government to come to a sensible arrangement that is in the mutual interests of ourselves, of Ireland and of the wider European Union.
Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con)
Last week, my European Scrutiny Committee met Mr Michel Barnier in Brussels. Tonight, my Committee will issue a report on Brexit in the context of the UK ports and customs issue, and the jurisdiction that goes with it. Will the Minister confirm, in the context of the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union’s statement with Mr Barnier today on the draft withdrawal agreement, that the British Government will stand firm on the question of not allowing the European Court of Justice exclusive or sole jurisdiction, given that articles 122 and 123 of that draft withdrawal agreement make significant concessions to the European Court?
Mel Stride
We have made it clear that once we have exited the implementation period, the European Court of Justice will have no further remit. We will take back our laws, to be determined by our courts at every level, including the Supreme Court.
Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab)
I reaffirm what my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) said earlier. On Thursday night, the Secretary of State for Transport promised a Dover studio audience that there would be no customs checks on goods vehicles passing through UK ports following our exit from the European Union. The Minister dodged every question that my right hon. Friend asked, but I will give him another opportunity to answer some of them.
It stands in complete contradiction to the Government’s wider position that, unlike Labour, they will not seek to form a customs union with EU member states after the transition period. Will the Minister confirm that it is now Government policy to discard protections on goods travelling into the country through a customs union while also refusing to check goods vehicles as a requirement to entry? Will he explain how tariffs will be applied and enforced without goods vehicles being checked by customs officials? Surely that would be in breach of World Trade Organisation rules—unless he knows something different. Can he give a single example of a nation that does not rely on either a customs union agreement or customs enforcement at its border? What are the Government’s plans to manage our trade relationships, to protect our own producers and to uphold environmental protections without either a customs agreement or border enforcement?
We all thought that the Government’s “cake and eat it” Brexit strategy was wildly misguided, but they now seem to have put us into a worse position that even fails to meet the low bar set by the Brexit Secretary when he committed to avoiding a “Mad Max-style”, “dystopian” Brexit. The Minister must set out clearly which of the options the Government are going to choose. Is it a customs union, as proposed by Labour, or goods checks at the borders? Or is it neither, as his Cabinet colleague has promised? For the sake of business confidence and planning, and of economic stability and continuity, will the Minister please ask the Chancellor to do us a favour and get to grips with the Government’s hokey-cokey Brexit policy, and tell the Transport Secretary—in the Defence Secretary’s words—to “go away” and “shut up”?
Mel Stride
Well, we waited a long time to get to the end of that, and I am not sure whether we are any wiser as a consequence.
As the hon. Gentleman will know, we are leaving the customs union, and I set out in my opening remarks the two models that we are intent upon progressing with our European partners. I also stressed that we will arrive at a solution that is as frictionless as possible. I have been down to Dover to meet the organisation that runs the port, and also the Border Force personnel who are engaged with it, and I am fully familiar with the importance of a frictionless border. Of course, the other important news that we have had today is that we have concluded, subject to the European Council meeting this week, an implementation period for the arrangements, which will not only give us additional valuable time to provide certainty to businesses, but ensure that we have all the arrangements in place for a successful customs system going forward.
John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)
Will the Minister confirm that we currently have friction-free and successful trade with the rest of the world under WTO terms and its facilitation of a trade agreement? If there is no free trade agreement with the EU after March 2019, we can have exactly the same friction-free trade with them, with Germany trading as China and America do today.
Mel Stride
My right hon. Friend is correct. We will be in a perfectly good position to ensure that we have near frictionless trade on day one, using the kind of facilitations that we are already using when it comes to the policing of our borders with the rest of the world, and indeed that exist between other countries such as Canada and the United States.
Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP)
We waited a long time to get to the end of that, and I not sure that we are any further forward as a result. The Minister finally understands what the rest of the world has been thinking after they have read every statement, listened to every speech and played through every attempt at clarification that we have had from the Government since the day of the referendum. My bingo card is not quite complete, but we got “deep and special”, “unprecedented” and “innovative”. We got “frictionless” twice, and we also got “streamlined”. However, I do not think that I heard “taking back control”, which is where I missed out on the jackpot, possibly because it is difficult to talk about “taking back control of our borders” when the Minister is trying to justify why we are not going to have any customs controls and therefore no border controls of any kind.
I remind the Minister that the port of Dover reckons that 99% of its traffic goes to and from the European Union, and it takes the massive great lorries an average of two minutes to get through. The other 1% goes to the rest of the world, and it takes an average of 20 minutes for those lorries to get through. There is no degree of customs check that can prevent Dover—in fact, most of Kent—from becoming a car park. We have not even started to talk about the impact on the Welsh ports. Where will the border be for traffic going from Wales to Northern Ireland via the Republic of Ireland? All the possible locations for a border have already been ruled out.
Has the Minister read the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee report that was published at the end of last week? Has he read the report of the Exiting the European Union Committee that was published on Sunday morning? Has he read the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee’s report that was published this morning? All of them say that the Government’s obsession with leaving the customs union will simply not work. I draw his attention to a conclusion of the Exiting the European Union Committee’s report of December 2017:
“It is difficult to imagine any possible deal, consistent with WTO and other international treaties, that would be more damaging to the UK’s interests than leaving the EU with no deal whatsoever in place.”
Does the Minister agree with that? Does he understand that we are now barely six months away from when we effectively need a deal in place? When are the Government going to get rid of the clichés and soundbites, and start giving us genuine solutions to the problems that they, and they alone, have caused?
Mel Stride
You are indeed a generous fellow, Mr Speaker. The nub of this issue is the misconception that having customs control at the border is the same thing as stopping every vehicle or jamming up Dover. There are approaches available—we set out them out at length in our White Paper last year, and we have been negotiating on them and will continue to put them forward to the EU—that use technology and the pre-lodging of customs declarations, and that may use inventory systems at ports or number plate recognition technology. All these approaches are perfectly capable of allowing traffic to move briskly through the ports, as indeed is the case today.
Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
Surely the implication of this question is that after we leave the customs union, it would somehow—bizarrely—be in the interest of those on either side of this equation to want to impose friction on trade. Surely the EU would not want to do this, given its massive trade surplus. So are we not tilting at windmills here—or is this not, as the French would say, a mere canard?
Mel Stride
My hon. Friend makes an extremely important point. As we know, there is a trade deficit in goods between ourselves and the EU, so it is clearly in the EU’s interests—and, particularly in the case of Dover and Calais, in France’s interests—to make sure that trade continues to flow smoothly.
Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)
The Minister referred to automated number plate recognition. Will he confirm that he has been discussing with the port of Dover extensive cameras, which could be part of his proposed technological solution? Will he also confirm that the Government rule out having such cameras at the Northern Ireland border, because they have ruled out any physical infrastructure at that border?
Mel Stride
The right hon. Lady is right to say that the Government have clearly ruled out any infrastructure at the Northern Ireland border. In the discussions on Dover—not necessarily with myself directly, but through officials—all those options, including the number plate recognition to which she refers, have indeed been talked about.
Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con)
As my right hon. Friend knows, if there were two countries that were ever going to have a completely frictionless border, they would be Norway and Sweden, because they are both in the single market, but, as we know, there is a hard border there. In any event, will he be so good as to go to his officials at the conclusion of his appearance in the House to ask them to make sure that the costs of the system the Government hope to achieve with our neighbours in the EU are fully calculated?
Mel Stride
I thank my right hon. Friend for her question, but of course we do not yet know, as we negotiate these arrangements with the EU27, exactly what form of arrangements will be in place. Of course we will be assessing those carefully.
Mr Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)
May I press the Minister a little more on his two alternatives to the customs union? He has posited the idea that one is a technological solution, but he has already acknowledged that it is not viable, because of the border with Northern Ireland, so this all rests on a customs partnership arrangement. Will he confirm not only that that would that require the UK to assess two separate tariff arrangements internally—one for us and one for the EU—but that we would be looking to the EU to assess both its own and the UK’s tariff arrangements simultaneously? Does that happen anywhere else in the world?
Mel Stride
We have made it clear all along that the new customs partnership is an extremely innovative approach and would be a first, because this is a unique situation in which we and our European partners have a strong trading relationship and a near complete alignment of rules and regulations pertaining to our trading arrangements. The hon. Gentleman suggests that there is no alternative to the new customs partnership in relation to the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland, but that is not the Government’s position. We are confident that by using facilitations and various arrangements—[Interruption.] If he focuses for a moment on the kind of activity that is happening across the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland, such as fuel laundering, he will see that it has proven perfectly reasonable for the Police Service of Northern Ireland to intercept those engaged in such activities, well away from the border and very effectively, by using targeted approaches, as we might be able to do going forward.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Ind)
I urge the Minister to reject the representations from the analogue Opposition parties, which seem to have a dystopian vision of analogue borders at which every single load is stopped. As the constituency representative for the port of Dover, I urge him to embrace digital borders, at which we have frictionless trade, risk-based stopping of trade and inspections where necessary, and the postponement of workplace checks and audits. In that way, the Labour party’s dystopian desire for Dover and Kent to be turned into a car park can be avoided, but only with investment. I urge the Minister to make the appropriate investment in systems to make that vision a reality as soon as possible.
Mel Stride
I thank my hon. Friend for his comments and also take this opportunity to thank him for the sound advice and guidance that he, as the Member who represents Dover, has given to me. As he says, we can of course use technology to ease traffic flows. We will also invest as required to make sure that our borders function effectively. The Chancellor made it clear in the autumn Budget in November that £3 billion would be made available as necessary, across Departments, for that purpose.
Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)
I note that the Minister has disowned the Secretary of State for Transport’s policy brainwave, because the Government are saying that vehicles will be stopped at Dover, but not all of them. Given that 10,000 trucks pass through Dover every day, how long will the tailback be if, say, one out of every 10 additional trucks needs to be checked and each check takes five minutes? Where will the lorry parks be built that will be needed to accommodate that?
Mel Stride
There will be no requirement for anything like the level of stoppages at Dover that the right hon. Gentleman suggests. We will use technology to facilitate the movement of trucks and goods through the port of Dover. If there is an intelligence-led requirement to stop any vehicles, that can be done outside the port of Dover. We will make sure that traffic through the port keeps flowing.
Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)
If we adopt unilateral free trade, we will not be the source of any friction, will we?
Mel Stride
I thank my right hon. Friend for his succinct question. Of course, that very much depends on where we end up in respect of our free trade agreements with the European Union and with other countries.
Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)
Will the Minister confirm that the arrangements that will be agreed with the European Union will apply in exactly the same terms to the British overseas territories and specifically to Gibraltar, and that there will be no problems about that with Spain?
Mel Stride
I refer the hon. Gentleman to the comments of the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union this morning. I believe he has confirmed that Gibraltar will be part of the agreements that we are expecting the European Council to agree to very shortly, and that they will also extend to our Crown dependencies and overseas territories as appropriate.
James Cleverly (Braintree) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend take as inspiration the workings of DP World, the deep-water port in the south of Essex where thousands of lorries-worth of containers flow into the country from outside the customs union swiftly, slickly and smoothly? Will he look upon that as a potential solution for the Dover border?
Mel Stride
I thank my hon. Friend for that point. I have no doubt that that is just one more example of where facilitations and technology can ensure that goods move efficiently across a customs frontier.
Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)
Does the Minister recognise that if there is no trade deal with the European Union, it will be a breach of World Trade Organisation rules to apply checks and tariffs to non-EU goods but not to EU goods?
Mel Stride
The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that under WTO terms we would have to treat the various countries equally, but we are confident that there will be a deal. Indeed, we made huge progress on the phase 1 issues in December and have heard just today that we are looking clearly at an agreement on the implementation period. We will be going forward for further agreement with the European Union on a deal for this country and the EU.
Mr Marcus Fysh (Yeovil) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that provisions related to a transition as per the mooted withdrawal agreement would not be effective until such an agreement were ratified and adopted, and that those stages will not be complete until next year? In that context, can he assure the House that upgraded capacity for inspections and declarations will be implemented behind the border now, so that trade can continue to flow whatever the outcome of negotiations with the EU by 29 March next year, and that this work will not be stood down?
Mel Stride
As I have already said, we will make sure that those elements of infrastructure—the places where goods can be checked on an intelligence-led basis and the technology that is required to keep our customs borders moving—will be in place by the appropriate time.
David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
If a Dublin-based company imports goods from mainland Europe in the European Union, puts them on a lorry, drives them through the frictionless border to Belfast, puts them on a ferry from Belfast to Liverpool, near my constituency, at what point do checks, and indeed facilitations, take place?
Mel Stride
As the right hon. Gentleman will know, these matters are subject to negotiation at the present time, but what we will make absolutely certain of is that there is no hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, that there is no customs border effectively within the Irish sea, that the Belfast agreement is respected, and that we have a relatively frictionless movement of goods across the Northern Ireland-Irish border.
Mr Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) (Con)
People are talking about the customs union, a customs union, a customs partnership and, as the Prime Minister put it, a hopeful customs arrangement, but will my right hon. Friend accept that as far as businesses are concerned they do not really care what it is called as long as they do not have 10-mile queues at the border, they are not paying EU tariffs and they are not being clogged up with more bureaucracy and red tape?
Mel Stride
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. What matters to business is that we keep the borders moving, and I have explained in my responses to many questions this afternoon exactly how we will approach that.
Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op)
Jaguar Land Rover is postponing investment in a new generation of electric vehicles until it is satisfied that there will be frictionless trade with the EU. Given that the Government have ruled out a customs union with the EU, what arrangements will the Government make that will both be achievable with the EU and satisfy Jaguar Land Rover so that it invests in much-needed electric vehicles?
Mel Stride
The Government are well aware of the particular needs of the motor manufacturing sector, with just-in-time delivery and the fact that some components move across what will potentially become a customs border in the future. Those needs are a priority for us during the negotiations. I have no doubt that the implementation period that has been announced today will be one of the things that will drive the economy forward even faster. The hon. Gentleman will know from the spring statement that the Office for Budget Responsibility has already upped the estimates of growth for next year, and hopefully the implementation period will make a further positive contribution to that.
Ben Lake (Ceredigion) (PC)
Wales is ideally based as a land bridge for many Irish exporters. Indeed, more than 70% of Irish road freight comes into the UK through Welsh ports. If a border is placed in the Irish sea, Welsh ports could face severe delays and disruptions. Will the Minister outline what assessment the Government have made of the potential impact on Welsh ports, and of whether trade will be diverted or displaced elsewhere?
Mel Stride
The good news for the hon. Gentleman is that there will be no circumstance under which this Government, or a British Prime Minister, will negotiate a deal in which we have an effective customs border between Northern Ireland and other parts of the United Kingdom.
Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab)
Currently, goods that require checks go into a lorry park just off the M20, which apparently has 82 parking spaces, but, never fear, there will be a new lorry park just off the M20. However, it seems that the plans to build it are completely snarled up in a judicial review. Will the Minister please give an update on how the lorry park will save the day, and by when it will be built?
Mel Stride
We will ensure that sufficient facilities are available for checks. As is the case at the moment, many of those checks will occur at business premises and storage facilities, including Stop 24, for example.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
As an MP for a city that has a port and that voted to leave the EU, taking back control of our borders was one of the most common reasons that I heard for people voting to leave. Will the comments attributed to the Transport Secretary about having no hard border at Dover apply to Hull as well?
Mel Stride
The Transport Secretary said that not every vehicle will be stopped, and that is absolutely right. In fact, we will use intelligence-led, technologically driven interceptions where appropriate, as is currently the case for our dealings with countries outside the European Union.
Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)
When will Ministers realise that the mantra of “frictionless border, frictionless border, frictionless border” is not standing up to scrutiny? Is he aware that Irish companies are already making contingency plans to go directly to mainland Europe, thereby bypassing Welsh, Scottish and English ports? Does he understand the effect that that will have on those port communities, but also on Her Majesty’s Treasury?
Mel Stride
We are committed to, and confident that we will achieve, a frictionless border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland that will facilitate trade in the future.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Will ports on mainland Europe reciprocate by having no customs checks for UK goods?
Mel Stride
It will depend on exactly what transpires in the negotiations, as the hon. Gentleman knows.
Melanie Onn (Great Grimsby) (Lab)
Today’s news on the customs arrangements during the transition phase will come as a very welcome update to business in the logistics of ro-ro port operations, and particularly to the time-sensitive fish trade and processing industry. Continuation of these sensible arrangements is essential for the long-term future of Great Grimsby’s processing sector and 5,000 jobs. Will the Minister tell the British public that their Grimsby fishfingers will be safe in their hands after we leave the EU?
Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
I was a big fan of Peter Pan when I was growing up. I thought that the idea of a magical Neverland was wonderful, but of course as we grow older we realise that it does not exist—[Hon. Members: “What?”] I am sorry to disappoint hon. Members. The Minister, however, seems to think that he can wish a happy thought and fly out of the window. I am going to ask him a very practical question. Have he and the Home Office undertaken plans to train and recruit additional customs officers for the Welsh ports that have been mentioned? I have asked a number of questions and have not been able to get a straight answer from the Home Office. Are additional staff being recruited? If so, how many?
Mel Stride
We have made it very clear that sufficient staff will be made available. The head of Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs has made it clear that there will be a requirement of between 3,000 and 5,000 additional staff. The Chancellor made it clear at the Budget that £260 million would be made available for HMRC in the coming year, and those resources are for people as well as technology. The right and appropriate number of people will be available.
Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab)
The clock is counting down, yet the agreement reached today is clear that the thorny issue of the future of the borders surrounding Northern Ireland is being kicked into the not-so-long grass. I want to pick up two things with the Minister, based on his answers this afternoon. First, we are hearing lots about technology. Does it even exist? If so, what is it and how quickly can it be implemented? Secondly, he talks about the facilitation of the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Will he say a bit more about what this facilitation is? It is not very clear, and the clock is ticking?
Mel Stride
An example of the technology would be the customs declaration service system that HMRC is developing as a replacement for the customs handling of import and export freight system. It is currently in testing, will go live come August and will be used in its entirety come January next year—well over a year before the end of the implementation period.
Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)
What exactly, in simple terms, is the difference between a customs partnership and a customs union?
Mel Stride
In a customs union, as I am sure the hon. Lady will know, a country would be bound by the external tariffs set by that customs union. A relationship with a customs union takes the form that I have described, which would be a frictionless interaction of our exports and imports with that customs union.
Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab)
What special assessment has been made of the risk of medications perishing due to long delays at ports?
Mel Stride
With regard to Euratom’s remit over the kinds of isotopes that the hon. Lady is referring to, nothing in our relationship with Euratom, or our lack of involvement with it going forward, will affect the ability of those isotopes to move between mainland Europe and the United Kingdom.
Mr Paul Sweeney (Glasgow North East) (Lab/Co-op)
The difference between a customs partnership and a customs union strikes me as a distinction without a difference. However, if there is a difference, and the Government are eschewing a policy of maintaining any form of customs union after Brexit, why did the Minister’s officials place a clause in the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Bill leaving it open to the Government to create a customs union after Brexit?
Mel Stride
One of the reasons for that relates to our Crown dependencies and overseas territories, where we may need to make arrangements to make sure that the whole deal functions effectively.
Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
The Transport Secretary has said:
“Trucks will move through the border without stopping…in the way it happens between Canada and the US.”
In a simple 20-second Google search, I found a handy border crossing guide for commercial truck drivers travelling between Canada and the US. It confirms that they need to submit paperwork to customs at least two hours before they arrive, which may expedite the process by up to 30 minutes. It also confirms that all trucks will have a primary inspection that may or may not be the only stop. Shall I send the Minister this document? Does he agree that the Transport Secretary is no longer fit for his job?
Mel Stride
I have made it very clear that facilitation such as the pre-lodging of customs declarations before vehicles even arrive at a particular border is an approach that, combined with other technological approaches, can ensure that vehicles move very swiftly and frictionlessly through borders, as evidenced by a number of examples around the world of where exactly that is happening.