Prisons and Courts Bill

Madeleine Moon Excerpts

2nd reading: House of Commons
Monday 20th March 2017 Commons Chamber

[Elizabeth Truss]

My hon. Friend is right. I represent a rural constituency, and I understand people’s concerns about having to travel far. Virtual hearings will enable people to do more online so that they do not need to travel to court, and to use virtual videos. That is already reducing travel needs throughout the country. If people want to observe a case in another part of the country, they will be able to go into their court to do so, with special permission. Victims and witnesses will have more access to the justice process.

[Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)]

Transferred online communications are wonderful if people have access to quality broadband, but communities in parts of my constituency have broadband that is as slow as 25% of capability. How on earth will people be able to gain access to justice when they cannot possibly do anything online because of appalling broadband?

[Elizabeth Truss]

We are doing a lot to improve broadband across the country. The online system is not mandatory; the paper process will be available. I have been looking recently at virtual hearings that are taking place across the country. In some areas, such as the south-west of England, there is very high take-up of these hearings, because being able to use broadband helps people in rural areas, who have long distances to travel to get to court.

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[Richard Burgon]

Of course we have considered the White Paper but, as I said, we will be returning to these practical proposals in Committee as we attempt to improve the Bill.

Did Ministers consider that the resettlement of prisoners might be a worthy aim to set out in the Bill? Too many prisoners leave prison without a home to go to, and that is a barrier to many things, including getting a job. It hampers rehabilitation and increases—

[Mrs Moon]

Is my hon. Friend aware of the Emmaus project? It will offer a prisoner who is ready to take the step of moving away from drugs and offending and into work the chance to become a companion. People will prepare goods for sale in the Emmaus shop, and restore and repair other goods. Those people claim no benefits other than housing benefit, so there is no real cost for the state, but they are supported in changing their lives absolutely and getting back into work. Should we not encourage that?

[Richard Burgon]

Fantastic work such as that of the Emmaus project helps not only to turn around the lives of inmates, but to protect society, because the majority of people who go into our prisons will come out and live next door to us. The project helps to give people a stake in society and to reduce reoffending, and the Government can learn much from it. Leaving prison without a home to go to creates a barrier to many things, including getting a job, and that hampers people’s reintegration into society.

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[Robert Neill]

My right hon. and learned Friend is absolutely right, and he moves me neatly on to the next thing I was going to say. That political will does sometimes require us to stand up against the writers of the lurid headlines and those who pose as the voices of public opinion but in fact seek to be manipulators of it, and to say the truth—that it is in everybody’s interest that we reduce reoffending because the more we do so, the fewer victims of crime there are, and that is in everybody’s interest. That is a good right-of-centre, as well as left-of-centre, case for undertaking prison reform, and we should make it across the House.

[Mrs Moon]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that one of the ways in which we could dramatically cut reoffending would be to look at how many people are revolving-door entrants and leavers of prison, not because of criminal intent but because their mental health condition drives them to behave in a way that leads them, inevitably, into the arms of the police—the police are becoming social workers for the mentally ill—and into the criminal justice system rather than into our psychiatric hospitals, which are massively overcrowded and underfunded?

[Robert Neill]

The hon. Lady, who follows these issues closely, makes a very fair and reasonable point. That is a significant factor.

I practised as a criminal lawyer for the better part of 30 years. I both prosecuted and defended, so I have had no compunction about sending away people who have committed serious crimes. Equally, when I defended people and when I looked at some of those whom I prosecuted during that career, I saw some who were dangerous, unpleasant and, frankly, in some cases downright evil. They deserved to go to prison, and some of them deserved to go to prison for a very long time.

There were others who were weak and stupid, and some who were greedy. Sometimes—particularly for those who were greedy—that, too, deserved punishment, and prison was an apposite and appropriate punishment. There were also those who were weak or vulnerable, or who found themselves in situations where they were easily coerced. There were people who had made a series of errors in their lives, and others who suffered from physical or mental illnesses or from real social pressures around them.

We have to be much more discriminating and sophisticated in how we deal with defendants in our justice system. Prison does not always work. It works for some people, but not for everybody all the time, and we need to be brave enough to say that in political debate. As my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Harborough (Sir Edward Garnier), the former Solicitor General, rightly says, the public are much more alert to and realistic about that, and much more willing to buy that argument. We simply need to have the courage to make it.

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[Mr Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) (Con)]

I congratulate Justice Ministers on bringing forward this very competent Bill. I very much appreciated the helpful and informative briefings on, and technology demonstrations for, the proposed court reforms that were organised by my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister for Courts and Justice. In many aspects of prisons, court and litigation policy, the Bill moves the debate forward in a generally pragmatic and rational way. If I have any overall concerns, they relate not so much to the Bill’s general content, but to the need to give fuller context to some of its clauses. This I intend to do in relation to a few of its measures.

On whiplash, we need to keep in mind that the proposals in part 5 are a continuation of the policy held since 2010 to reduce a compensation culture that has had a detrimental impact on our society. In Justice questions on 7 March and again in this debate, the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Leeds East (Richard Burgon), seemed to question the existence of a compensation culture. Frankly, I thought that we had positively proven that that was an issue at the time of our consideration of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012, but it seems that the situation now needs to be re-explained. Before LASPO we noticed, as my hon. Friend the Member for North West Cambridgeshire (Mr Vara) pointed out, that although accidents had fallen by a quarter, claims had increased by a third. That unacceptable position led us to instigate a series of incremental measures with the aim of reversing that trend.

The key problem originated from the dynamic created by the no win, no fee provisions of Labour’s Access to Justice Act 1999, which had put in place an unreal marketplace. To cut a very long story short, due to the workings of Labour’s Act, the interest of the client in their advocate’s fees had become detached. That was because the client would never directly have to pay any of the fees, so it followed that they would not care what those fees were. The situation was stoked by claims farmers and aggressive cold callers. This was a further example of Labour supporting a something-for-nothing system, and that system put constant upward pressure on fees and thereby insurance premiums.

In LASPO, to counter that, we ended the recoverability of success fees and after-the-event insurance premiums from the losing defendant. We then moved on to ban referral fees, and to address spam texting and cold calling by claims handlers and their agents. We also toughened up the regulation of claims handlers. The overall impact of the changes was considered to have reduced insurance premiums by some 25%. However, it is vital to keep an overall picture of what is a complicated situation. For instance, the Association of British Insurers considers that some 1% of whiplash claims are fraudulent, meaning that criminal sanctions also play a part in dealing with this issue. The fraud figure used at the time of LASPO was over 5%, so I will be interested to hear from the Minister whether he believes that insurers and prosecutors have now got the message and upped their game by taking more fraudsters to court. However, I am not convinced that the problem of illegal cold calling has yet been resolved, and I would be interested to hear whether the Minister has any further proposals in this regard.

Another important aspect is the small claims limit for personal injury cases, which is frankly well out of date. To those who are complaining about the proposals, I would say that the fact that this measure is being taken up now, rather than when it was first considered in around 2012, shows how cautious the Government have been to take one step at a time. I fully support the Government’s proposal to increase the road traffic accident-related personal injury small claims limit to £5,000, which will encourage more thought before cases are taken. Will the Minister please confirm whether mediation will be a requirement for consideration, as it is for general small claims, or will the use of a tariff not require this?

I am surprised that the Government propose to increase the limit for all other personal injury claims from £1,000 to only £2,000, rather than £5,000. My understanding was that if only inflation were taken into account, the limit would increase to above £3,000. I appreciate that the change to the small claims limit is a matter for secondary legislation rather than the Bill, so I hope that the Government might reconsider this level. I recall putting up the general small claims limit from £5,000 to £10,000, and what was generally seen by lawyers at that time as something that would hurt their businesses has been very successful in practice.

The compensation culture tag is not one that I would attach to seriously injured accident survivors who need complicated legal help, but rather more to the mass of whiplash claims that involve an injury duration of less than two years and are currently waved through to settlement by insurers who do not want the cost or bother of dealing with each small claim. The average compensation for a six-month injury duration is £1,850. This is why I fully support the Bill’s proposal that the tariff should be based on injury duration, but if that proposal is not to be taken advantage of, a better system for organising medical reports is needed. At the moment, offers to settle can be made without medical reports, even though changes were made in 2014 to discourage that practice. From now on, there will be a ban on settling without medical evidence, which I certainly think is to be welcomed.

A related area that I understand is contributing to the increase in insurance premiums relates to the cost of so-called free hire cars for accident victims. Is the Department looking at that?

The overall insurance premium saving attributed by the Government to these proposals is £40 per year. However, I agree that that message has been somewhat diluted by insurers, who are saying that the proposed reduction of the discount rate applicable to personal injury lump sum compensation payments to minus 0.75% will result in a significant increase in premiums of up to £75. I appreciate that the law, not the Lord Chancellor, sets the discount rate, and I am pleased that the Government are consulting on an alternative framework, but one wonders why the consultation could not have been handled with the Bill. Having said that, it is certainly the case that, through this Bill, the Government are continuing the incremental fightback against the compensation culture, which I think is a very good thing.

[Mrs Moon]

I understand the hon. Gentleman’s points about the whiplash culture, but does he appreciate that the Bill does not cover the ability of rogue solicitors to pursue false claims against individuals who have not been involved in car accidents? Those solicitors claim that they have, and that people have been injured. An elderly couple in my constituency were harassed terribly, and although there was no evidence of injury, the solicitor pursued the claim. The court threw it out, but the Solicitors Regulation Authority would not look at the matter at all.

[Mr Djanogly]

I totally agree with the hon. Lady. Fraud is an important part of the overall situation, but the criminal side is not dealt with in the Bill. I asked the Minister earlier if he would address that issue. At the time of LASPO, it was considered that 5% to 7% of claims were fraudulent. The latest ABI information I have seen is 1% or perhaps less, which would suggest that there has been a dramatic improvement, but I will be interested to hear whether the Government accept that and what they are going to do about the 1%, if that figure is accurate.

The Bill also sets out a wide variety of proposals for case management and the operation of the courts, all of which will, taken together, make for a much more effective, modern and technology-friendly system. Of course, the fact that the Government propose to invest £1 billion in the courts will do much to ensure that they remain world class. There will be fewer courts, but a much better service—by 2022, I understand. I hope that some of the money will be used to simplify processes and facilitate non-lawyers’ ability to navigate the system. Will the Minister indicate where the Department has got to on using technology to assist litigants in person?

Technology was often disregarded in the past because people did not think that its use would deliver justice as effectively as turning up in person. I would suggest that that view is very out of date, particularly with respect to younger people. Indeed, we are moving to a situation in which most crime is likely to be carried out online, so I welcome proposals such as having automatic online convictions with statutory standard penalties for a few criminal offences. I hope that that will shortly be reviewed with the aim of extending the range of offences. Likewise, enabling claimants to recover money owed up to £25,000 entirely online will save time and will certainly help small businesses.

The extension of the use of virtual hearings is to be commended in terms of not only protecting the vulnerable from those accused of certain crimes, including rape, but making justice cheaper and more efficient. How much better will it be to have the police brought in online from their stations, rather than their hanging round the court waiting for cases with nothing else to do? Having said that, I appreciate that we will need good procedural rules so that trials are kept fair.

In some ways, the technology is still being developed. I spoke recently to a criminal district judge who said that he was all in favour of court cameras, except when they did not work, which was all too frequently for his liking. Apparently, private companies that deal with bridging link-ups act strictly to timetables that sometimes do not tie in with those of the courts. Will such practical issues now be ironed out? Of course, that will become even more relevant because the Bill proposes that criminal cases could be conducted virtually, whereby all court participants join the hearing through a live link. The proposal to balance tech developments with the ability for the public and media to view virtual courts online is a good safeguard and a modern re-assertion of the old principle that justice needs to be seen to be done.

I note the proposal to reorganise the magistracy and make it a unified judiciary. It is exactly right, and will provide an adaptability similar to that given when the county courts were unified. It will actually enhance the concept of the magistrate as a nationally qualified judge rather than as a person tied to a particular bench.

This is a worthy Bill. It will do much to move our justice system into modern ways of organisation and efficiency.

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[Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)]

I, too, welcome much of the Bill. I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for North West Cambridgeshire (Mr Vara), and I particularly endorse his comments about judicial diversity. This is a far-reaching Bill, although we have to infer quite a lot of the detail from the White Paper, particularly in relation to prison reform. As others have said, the Bill is relatively thin on detail.

I welcome the establishment of a new statutory purpose for prisons, but I also hope that there will be opportunities to strengthen and extend it as we take the Bill through this House and the other place. The Prison Reform Trust has suggested that the statutory purpose should make exclusive reference to standards of fairness and decency. Given the problems in our prisons today, including the exceptional amount of time that prisoners are spending in cells and not engaged in purposeful activity, the disturbances that have put prisoner and staff safety at risk, and the appalling mental health of many of those in our prisons, I strongly endorse the need for a purpose that captures those elements of fairness and decency.

Like many hon. Members who have spoken today, I want to talk about the need for good mental healthcare in prisons. According to the Royal College of Psychiatrists, at least 3% to 4% of prisoners have a psychotic illness; 10% to 14% have a major depressive illness; and up to two thirds have a personality disorder. Many prisoners are so unwell that prison is utterly the wrong place to treat them. This has been starkly brought home to me when handling a constituency case over the past few months. That case has really shown that the system is not working to ensure that prisoners’ mental health is paramount. It involves a young man accused of very serious offences who has been on remand in Manchester prison since before Christmas. He is seriously psychotic, and prison is not the right place for him to have been sent to, yet still, four months on, no secure hospital bed has been found where he can be securely and appropriately cared for. I therefore strongly endorse the call by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman) for statutory time limits in the Bill for the length of time that someone who is so unwell can be kept in prison. We need to take that important measure to ensure that parity of esteem between mental health and physical health exists in our prisons as it does in the wider healthcare system.

We also know that women in custody have a high incidence of mental health problems. This year, we mark the 10th anniversary of Baroness Corston’s seminal report on women in custody, and this is a real opportunity for us to make a step change in the way in which we deal with women in the penal system. The Justice Secretary has said that she intends to bring forward a strategy in relation to women in the next few weeks, and I very much look forward to debating it with the Government. I hope that Ministers will take this opportunity, and not simply build more new women’s prisons that are far from home and too large to provide the right regime for their particular needs. Baroness Corston identified the need for small, local, secure units—not prisons—that specifically cater for the needs of women. This is a once-in-a-generation chance for Ministers to transform the nature of the women’s prison estate, and I really hope that they will not miss the opportunity.

I am also concerned that the Government seem intent on building new large male prisons, such as Berwyn, which I understand is to have a population of 2,000 prisoners. However, there is a lot of evidence of smaller prisons doing better, according to the Centre for Social Justice, the Prison Reform Trust—which found that prisons with fewer than 400 prisoners were more likely to perform well than those with more than 800—and the National Audit Office, whose 2013 report showed that the smaller prisons achieved better internal performance ratings. We do not know whether there is a difference in reoffending rates for small and larger prisons, and I would be grateful if anyone in the House enlightened me on that. If we do not have the information, however, I strongly urge Ministers to conduct a programme of research to help us to understand that.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) went into some detail about the importance of family contact, which incarceration a long way from home naturally makes more difficult. According to a 2008 study for the Ministry of Justice, family contact reduces recidivism by 39%, which is a substantial reduction. A joint report by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of prisons and the Youth Justice Board found that boys who suffered from emotional or mental health problems were less likely usually to have a visit at least once a week from family or friends than those without mental health problems, yet half of women and a quarter of men on remand receive no family visits. Concentrating prisoners in larger prisons, further from home and covering large geographical areas, is going to work against the family contact that can make such a difference.

[Mrs Moon]

I totally endorse everything that my hon. Friend says. She sets out the tragedy of the difficulties that women in prison face in maintaining family contact. Their children often end up in care or being farmed out to family members who cannot travel long distances. In particular, for Welsh women, children have to travel to England to see their mum in prison. This damages the family cohesion that is so vital to rehabilitation.

[Kate Green]

I completely agree with my hon. Friend. Women are usually the main carers of children, and the consequences of their being in custody can be devastating not only for the women but for the children, who ought to be our paramount consideration. I support the calls from the Prison Advice and Care Trust, among others, for a requirement on sentencers specifically to ask about the provision for the children of parents who are about to be given a custodial sentence, and particularly to know where they will spend that first night as their parent faces incarceration.

If we are serious about prison reform, we have to face the fact that our fundamental problem is sentencing policy. We incarcerate too many people who do not need to be there, which costs a great deal of money, and too many of them resume offending on release. I could not agree more with the Lord Chief Justice, who told the Justice Committee last November that the focus needs to be on rigorous, demanding and effective community penalties. However, that requires those penalties to be available and it requires sentencers to have knowledge of and confidence in them. This cuts to magistrates’ training budgets, the lack of full pre-sentence reports because of pressures on the National Probation Service, and problems with community rehabilitation companies.

I want to comment briefly on the Bill’s extensive court reform proposals, and in that regard I declare my interest as a life member of the Magistrates Association. While I recognise the opportunities that modern technology can offer to an efficient court system, I echo the concerns about how vulnerable users will fare in a virtual system. The virtual courts pilot of several years ago offers little reassurance and this Bill’s impact assessment frankly tells us nearly nothing. However, there are concerns, as highlighted by Transform Justice and others, about the lack of access to legal advice, the impact on lawyer-client relationships, the impact on sentencing—the virtual courts pilot suggested that there may be some inflationary impact—the fairness of the process, public perception, and the cost to the public purse, about which the impact assessment is quite vague. I share the concerns of the Magistrates Association and others about the use of online courts in relation to pleas, remand, sentencing and vulnerable young people. Significant numbers of prisoners have low levels of literacy and numeracy or suffer from learning disabilities and may struggle to present their case in the best possible light. They may agree to their case being dealt with in writing or online because it is quicker, it gets things over with, or because it is suggested to them by a police officer in a police station, but that does not necessarily serve the best interests of justice.

I understand the argument made by the hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly) about the loss of the local justice area being an opportunity for a unified magistracy and judiciary, but there are advantages to local justice. As the Justice Committee identified in its report on the magistracy last year, the loss of local justice must not mean losing the leadership and peer support that helps a bench to function collectively more effectively and efficiently. I hope that the Minister will be able to reassure us on that.

On the other proposed reforms to civil justice, I endorse the concerns expressed about the proposals on whiplash and the small claims route, and I regret that the Government have not taken the opportunity to be more assertive in their tackling of the aggressive marketing practices of some claims management companies. I also endorse the concerns of my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn about the rise in the small claims limit and the impact that that may have. Workers in relatively low-paid employment with modest claims for accidents at work may find themselves unable to access the legal advice that enables them to make claims successfully. USDAW, a trade union of which I am a member, offers several examples of where relatively minor accidents that are significant to those in minimum wage jobs would not have secured compensation under the Government’s proposed changes due to the lack of access to legal help for workers to pursue their cases.

Finally, I am also concerned about one aspect of the proposal to move responsibility for employment tribunals to the Ministry of Justice. In doing so, I hope that we will not lose the real value that comes from having expert tribunals made up of representatives of both employers and trade unions, employees and the trained judiciary.

Like others, I welcome the Bill, much of which I look forward to seeing develop, but I hope that Ministers will take seriously the concerns that are being expressed and ensure that the justice system, of which this country is so proud, remains the best and most modern in the world as result of the reforms.

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[Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)]

I hope to bring great cheer to the right hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Sir Edward Garnier), because I am proud to say that one prison that has developed a world-class suite of rehabilitation interventions to reduce reoffending is Parc prison in my Bridgend constituency. Those interventions are largely thanks to the leadership of the prison’s director Janet Wallsgrove as well as Corin Morgan-Armstrong, the head of its family intervention unit and his team of staff and volunteers. Most importantly, the prison has clear partnerships with numerous local organisations within the community, which has led to rehabilitation work with families being not only possible but successful.

The Invisible Walls Wales programme was set up in 2012 and funded for four years by the Big Lottery Fund, Bridgend County Borough Council, Barnardo’s Wales, Gwalia housing and the Welsh Centre for Crime and Social Justice—money not from the Ministry of Justice but from organisations within Wales that are worried about reoffending.

The three core aims of Invisible Walls Wales meet all four of the aims of this Bill. Parc is a 62-bed family intervention unit aimed at reducing reoffending, reducing intergenerational offending and encouraging community cohesion. The funding has transformed family engagement at Parc prison. The environment of prison visits has been fundamentally revamped and, in a bold step, the prison’s visit hall feels more like a community centre than a prison.

Across the prison estate, 48% of prisoners receive regular family contact, but at Parc, thanks to a small change, the proportion has now risen to 69%. As we all know, evidence shows that people in prison who maintain links with their family are 52% less likely to reoffend. Some 90% of prisoners were misusing drugs and alcohol at the start of the Invisible Walls Wales programme, but that fell to 24% by the end of the project. There were particular benefits for the children of prisoners—by the end of the project there was a 30% reduction in the number of children assessed as having school attainment and attendance issues, and 91% of the children had appropriate peer relationships.

In June 2016, Her Majesty’s inspectorate of prisons declared that the children and families work at Parc was “innovative and radical” and “probably the best” it has seen in the UK. The work has been exported internationally to prisons in the Netherlands, Uganda and Australia. The President of Malta has visited to see what can be learned from Parc, the first prison in the EU to achieve an “Investors in Families” charter mark. This week, Parc’s head of family interventions, Corin Morgan-Armstrong, is to speak at the International Coalition for Children with Incarcerated Parents conference in New Zealand.

Parc represents a global hub of excellence, especially given that we are expecting evidence to show that the reoffending rate among 80 high-risk families is to reduce to about 10%. The results speak for themselves: before the changes, physical altercations in the visit halls were witnessed by family members and children once a week, whereas since the revamp Parc has had just one incident in the past six years. Facilitating positive family engagements becomes all the more important when, as we have discussed, six out of 10 boys with fathers in prison will end up incarcerated themselves. We need to place more emphasis on family engagement as a tool for reform. We have all said that, but Parc actually makes it possible.

I cannot tell Members how many ways Parc has changed lives. For example, Mark won the platinum award—the highest possible award—in the 2016 Koestler Trust prison art awards, which attract entries from prisoners from around the UK and abroad. Parc is among the top three establishments to have submitted the most entries to the trust, whose chief executive, Tim Robertson, said:

“HMP & YOI Parc’s outstanding record of success in the Koestler Awards is a testament to the excellent education staff and facilities at the prison: they turn prisoners’ latent potential into concrete positive achievement. It also reflects the fact that G4S, across all its establishments, takes the arts seriously as a means of learning and rehabilitation.”

Many Members will know of the Hay literary festival in Wales, but they may not know of “Hay in the Parc”, which takes place at the same time. This literary and arts festival encourages prisoners to write and to present their artworks, and sometimes the presenters at the Hay literary festival go to “Hay in the Parc” to talk to prisoners.

Schools now go into the prison to work with dads, helping with their reading and understanding of educational jargon, and with developing their listening and reading skills, so that they can engage in their children’s education. Schools are provided with the information they need to support children affected by parental imprisonment. Contact details are provided to schools so that if issues arise they can go to the prison to ask for information and advice. Prisoners are helped to improve their children’s literacy and numeracy, while also building their own literacy and numeracy skills. Building a parent’s confidence in parenting and teaching them how to do it while incarcerated really makes a difference in the life of that family and of that prisoner once they leave prison. The “Fathers Inside” scheme focuses on intensive group work on parental responsibility for a child’s education, development and wellbeing, using drama, fiction, games and written portfolios. A Duke of Edinburgh leadership pilot at the prison gives fathers the opportunity to gain a Duke of Edinburgh leadership qualification while mentoring their children or siblings through different sections of the bronze award. The prison also has a beaver scouts group, the first in the UK for prisoners and their children, while the “Baby Steps” programme provides innovative antenatal education to parents so that they know how to parent.

The prison has developed an introductory booklet that enables a robust risk assessment to be made, so that prisoners who may be violent are identified and measures can then be put in place immediately to reduce that violence. New arrivals are screened for discriminatory views, and prisoners found to have contravened the prison’s community inclusion policy are required to attend a diversity training programme, whereby set actions are fed into their sentence plan.

I talked earlier about the work of Emmaus with Parc, but this works only if Parc prison works in advance of a prisoner’s discharge to make sure that they are ready: ready for the change; ready for the responsibility; ready to move into work; ready to build a new life; and ready to change and move away from the old patterns, the old friendship group, the old offending and the behaviour that led to it, before moving towards becoming a “companion” in one of the Emmaus homes. I ask the Secretary of State also to work with the Department for Work and Pensions, because the new proposals on changes to access to housing benefit will damage the Emmaus scheme; the only income companions have is that housing benefit, and that makes it possible for Emmaus to continue its work.

I know that time is running short, but I must say that money is not everything; skilled and dedicated prison officers, partnership working outside the prison and maintaining the family link are vital to rehabilitation, but so, too, are taking risks and trying new, innovative ideas which do not fit the traditional view of punitive sentencing. It is not a soft option for someone to know that they will lose contact with their children if they take drugs; to have their child tell them about their bed-wetting and about the bullying they face because their father is in prison; or to have to face their own illiteracy and innumeracy, and the way in which their offending has damaged their community and family life. I hope that the Secretary of State will visit Parc to see the work that has been done there. I hope she will have the same kind of look on her face as the previous Justice Secretary did when he came to Parc and spoke to one of the prisoners about their educational experience there. This young man told him that he had dropped out of education because it was not for him and it was not going to take him anywhere, but Parc had given him a chance, not only to do his GCSEs, but to do a degree. He was asked, “In what?” He replied, “Philosophy.” If prison can take people through degrees in philosophy, that is the sort of rehabilitation and changes in people’s lives that I hope this Bill will be able to produce.

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[Mrs Moon]

I thank the hon. Gentleman, whom I consider my friend, for giving way. I suggest that the Justice Committee does visit Parc prison, because the leadership from the director there is essential. These things work only with leadership, quality staff, a whole organisational approach and a commitment to change. I am sure the Chair of the Select Committee would be delighted at what he finds there. I must admit that my staff and I can take no responsibility for the wonderful work there; we can only support it.

[Richard Arkless]

I reciprocate the hon. Lady’s views on our friendship, for various reasons. I would of course be delighted if the Chair of the Select Committee agreed to visit Parc prison, and I would be even more delighted if the hon. Member for Shipley was with us so that I could take photographs of his ever-changing complexion as he saw the progressive benefits.