Football Governance Bill [HL]

Lord Mann Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 13th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mann (Lab)]

If there were no crooks or conmen, Bury Football Club might not have been forced to go to the very bottom of the pyramid rather than staying where they were—a club with a huge history and a huge fan base.

I declare an interest as one of the deplorables. I am elected by the fans of Leeds United Football Club to chair their supporters’ club, the oldest in the world at 105 years old. I am a statistical economist by training, and I calculate that my members have spent in their lifetime between £3 billion and £5 billion following Leeds United Football Club. In reality they are investors in Leeds United Football Club. They meet a few government objectives on the way because, in that 105 years, they have provided green transport and taken cars off the road by providing buses to every fixture, home and away—and I mean every fixture. They have reduced the police bill, not marauding around the streets in any way but going point to point for every single match. That is another contribution.

What do we get for that? Let us look what happens in Germany. Germany was cited as a bad example because there is no competition in Germany, fans have a say and it is a bad model. Let us get our facts right. Here are entrants by success from German football into UEFA competitions for the first time in their history in the last 10 years: Freiburg, Augsburg, Mainz, Union Berlin, Hoffenheim and Heidenheim. The champions of Germany, the Bundesliga, for the first time ever last season were Leverkusen. There is fan involvement—unlike in this country—diversity of success and a growing business model.

Let us jump down the scale. I had to intervene several times to assist the fans of Worksop Town Football Club—the fourth oldest in the world, created in 1861—in preventing it going out of business. No one else was going to intervene—not the football authorities. We had to save the club not once but more than once. For a town like Worksop a football club of that age, however relatively unsuccessful, is fundamental to its very being. Should that club be allowed to disappear? Should Bury have to come in at the lowest possible denominator because of that?

I have some questions for the Minister. If Worksop Town at its low level were to be brought into any regulation, would that require action by the regulator, primary legislation or secondary legislation? If the players’ union had to be consulted, which of those three would that require?

What if women’s football were to be included? I shall cite Solihull Moors. Does the situation four weeks ago at Solihull Moors classify as potential action for the regulator under the legislation or not? If not, which of those would be required—regulation, primary legislation or secondary legislation?

Football has to report on modern slavery but not on footballers. The Commonwealth Parliamentary Association in co-operation with the Kenyan Parliament has a big project on this at the moment. It is a huge issue. If we want to require football to report on footballers, including under-16s, under the modern slavery requirements that apply to all other employees, which of those three does that require?

Paragraphs 8 and 9 of Schedule 5 talk of a requirement to consult representatives elected by fans, but a number of clubs are choosing who the fan representatives on their supporters’ advisory boards are. With the legislation as it stands, will that be superseded by the ability of democratically run fan groups to elect their own representatives?

There is good news on one of my other declared interests—anti-Semitism. In the last four weeks, we have had Jewish Fulham supporters able to go to a Hanukkah event at their club as a Fulham Jewish supporters’ group. Manchester City have agreed to a similar event in the last four weeks and Leeds United will have another Hanukkah event—one of the fastest growing, with significant numbers joining. Orient will have its first-ever such event in a few weeks’ time. Should those fan groups expect that their clubs recognise their existence and speak to them on relevant issues? I suggest that would be rather a good thing for society. How does that fit into how this Bill is worded? I am a Kick It Out ambassador on anti-Semitism. Will the reporting on equalities be better or worse than the requirements we put on the banking sector? They ought to be at least as good. Will they be?

Above all, there are two big questions that the Government have to answer. One is the Bury question. Bury was taken out of existence by a conman, and lifelong fans of Bury wanted to get hold of the assets in order to run it themselves and keep it alive. Will that be possible technically with this Bill? What they required was the asset of the ground, the name and probably a bit of cashflow in whatever capacity—loan or whatever—to keep the show on the road in the league they were in, if they chose to remain in that league. Is that possible?

I shall reference Leeds United Supporters Club for the other big question. We do not want to be called Red Bull Leeds by some of the new investors. We do not want to be like Red Bull Salzburg; in fact, I refuse to wear a shirt with red on. I am happy to wear a red rosette every election—and only a red rosette—but in my football I and many others do not wish to be Red Bull Leeds. Does this legislation give us the power—if we can persuade the rest of the fans—to vote yes or no to such a proposition?

They are the two key tests of this legislation. I hope to hear from the Government that, on both, those powers will be there.

Football Governance Bill [HL]

Lord Mann Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 27th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Mann (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare an interest in the Register of Lords’ Interests, as the elected chair of a football supporters’ group with 13,000 members. On Sunday, the weather advice was that nobody should travel in south Wales. I and 3,000 others did travel in south Wales. On Sunday afternoon, we travelled, not of our choice but because football fixtures are being changed to all sorts of obscure times. We went, and returned very late, very happily. That will not be the case at all fixtures if I wish to attend this House. In the new year, we have three fixtures that have been shifted to 8 pm on a Monday, and that does not quite balance with the sitting times of the House. I am just one fan, but there are many thousands who face that.

Imagine trying to get to Plymouth by 12.30 pm on a Sunday. That is what we had to do. It is not an easy way of life, and it is not just the bishops who are losing custom by this odd scheduling. It affects people’s ability. If there were to be an added word in here, it should be “enjoyment”—enjoyment of the game. Yesterday, one club, Manchester United, announced its new prices for this season. For a child, the minimum price is £66. That was my first away fixture, supporting Leeds United, aged five. I was lifted over the barriers—in for free—as I was at Leeds until the age of eight or nine, because that was how children were welcomed then. I did not pay to go in for the very many hundreds of matches I went to in that age span, and now it is £66. Well, it is a business.

The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, who has good football taste, was none the less slightly awry with the example he gave in terms of liquidation, insolvency and the problems. If we take where I live—I will take Lincoln City and Notts County at random—both were about to disappear. The only reason they survived is that the supporters saved them. That is the difference between this industry and other industries. There are countless examples. If they were private sector businesses, they would have vanished.

In some cases, the fans could not do it. In 1987, as a Leeds United fan living in London with a few friends, I got a season ticket for a club called Wimbledon. It was a good choice; we got to the cup final with Wimbledon. I had a young daughter and I could not get to Leeds all the time, so a group of us went to Wimbledon in our spare time. If you are a fan of Wimbledon and your club wins the cup after coming from nowhere, you see what that does for the area and the fans, and people in south London. Then, a few years later, your club is extinguished, gone, shifted to Milton Keynes—vanished. The fans had the wherewithal to set it up again as AFC Wimbledon, and build from the bottom up, which is what they are having to do at Bury.

I almost thought that one or two noble Lords were suggesting that the state should not intervene in successful business, and I will end on this point. If we combine Scottish and English football, the most successful moment in terms of success on the pitch was around 1971. England had won the World Cup; Manchester United were the first English team to win the European Cup. Celtic had won the European Cup in 1967; Rangers were about to win the European Cup Winners’ Cup. We had the Cup Winners’ cup and the Fairs cup, and a whole succession of English teams about to take on the European Cup through the 1970s and dominate world football. It was the one moment when both Scottish and English football were at their height.

On the 2 January 1971, at a high moment, 66 people died at Ibrox football stadium. The state did very little intervening then. Then there was the fire at Bradford— I knew people who were there—when the state had not intervened sufficiently in the industry, and people died. Then there was Hillsborough, where people died. The state has intervened in the sport and the interventions, when they have been hard and focused, have been transformative. It was not the owners of the clubs who brought in the model of football with all-seater stadiums, revenue generation and corporate hospitality. I shall tell you the first club that did it. It was Glasgow Rangers. After 1971, their manager, Willie Waddell, went to see how others across the world did it. They rebuilt the stadium before anyone else did because of his experience of seeing people dying in front of him—that is state intervention.

In the balance between the fans, the state, the entrepreneurship and people’s ability to put in money—if anyone wants to put money into our club, we would be delighted because we are not trying to stop that—we want to see a slight tilt so that the fans are listened to. If we end up shifted to the bottom like the fans of Bury—I do not think we will, but you never know—the state should allow us to do something that they were not able to do; that is, for more to be done along the lines of what was done by the genius of those Wimbledon fans. It took them years to get back up. Wimbledon Football Club, having beaten Liverpool in the cup final in 1988, should have been able to survive seamlessly with their fans. That is the point of this regulation, and it is why I hope the Opposition Front Bench will be reluctant to further push this line of argument.

There are interesting issues that should be explored in getting that balance right. It will be legitimate to go into them and hold the Government to account, to question and even amend. Sustainability means that I, as a fan, will have my club in the future, whether it is badly or well run. That is what is critical about this legislation, and I commend the Government for bringing it forward.

[Baroness Brady (Con)]

My Lords, I refer the Committee to my interests, which are declared in the register. I want to give the noble Lord, Lord Mann, a bit of comfort in that had he been going to a Premier League away game, he would have paid only £30, because there has been a cap on the price of away tickets for the past five years.

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[Lord Markham (Con)]

I am very glad the noble Baroness mentioned that. When you set the objectives of any organisation, you want to set out the balancing factors. If it is only sustainability, you can get into the lowest common denominator, because a regulator would have absolutely done its job, by the nature of what is set down, just by the survival of all the clubs. There is a very easy way to do that: just dole out all the Premier League money to all the clubs straight away. That would make them all sustainable, giving the money to all the clubs. I think we would all agree that that would be a pretty nonsensical way to do it, but that would achieve the objective. If you set only a single objective, it is very one-dimensional.

Why would you not want a regulator to take into account that the overall financial health of the game is dependent on the TV viewership? That is what drives the money. What drives the TV viewership? It is how competitive the games are—not just the top games but all the games through the league? As I mentioned at Second Reading, and as the noble Lord, Lord Birt, mentioned, we are people who have sold and bought media rights around the world. The reason why countries as far flung as Nigeria, Thailand and everywhere else will pay so much for the rights is that every game is competitive. There is a chance that Bournemouth will go out and beat Liverpool, so everyone cares about it. The Premier League does not have a God-given right to be successful. As the noble Lord, Lord Birt, said, many years ago, the Italian league was more successful. The difference today is that you do not have just two or three top teams, as you see in Germany, Spain and Italy. You have a whole host of teams which are all competitive in the league, so every game becomes interesting to watch.

My concern in all of this is if the only criterion set down is that of sustainability, it is so one-dimensional that the regulator could just decide to discharge its duties in that way. I hope it will not, but when it comes back to the scrutiny that we are all saying it should have, the regulator could sit here among us all and say, “Look, I have made all these clubs sustainable. Okay, too bad that the TV viewership has gone down and too bad that a load of the games are no longer competitive, so the TV rights money has gone down, but they are all sustainable, because I doled out all the money”. I do not think that is what any of us would want. I really do not understand why this should be. This is not a political point; I really do not understand the objective at all. I am literally scratching my head as to why there should be a problem with that.

That is why in our later amendments we try to put in other criteria of success. Those are designed to be the ones that are all about maximising the size of the financial pie, by making sure that TV viewership and attendance are high. People forget in all of this—

[Lord Mann (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for giving way. Would he like to comment on the Premier League vote of last week? Some clubs, led by Manchester City, wanted to grow the amount of money coming into football by allowing different forms of sponsorship, which were designed purely and precisely to put more money into certain clubs—for example, Manchester City, which is obviously why it is in favour. That would obviously be growing the amount of money going into the game, as the noble Lord said. Is that an issue that the regulator should be deciding or, on his argument, that the clubs should be deciding?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I definitely do not want the regulator to be involved in every nook and cranny, but when the regulator is sitting here in front of us and we are assessing whether or not it has done a good job, to me, the only criterion is not whether all the clubs are still out there in existence. That is a pretty limiting move. Why would we want to narrow ourselves down to that measure? I do not understand why any noble Lord would not want an objective to be that TV viewership goes up or that media sports rights money goes up. I will sit down to give noble Lords a chance.

Football Governance Bill [HL]

Lord Mann Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 2nd December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)]

On the noble Baroness’s last point, I do not want the regulator to be doing this. That is why I want it in the Bill. This is not an issue where there can be any subjectivity. There has to be something tight.

Bournemouth may have season ticket holders in Sweden, I do not know, and if they come, they come. If they do not come, though, they are still a season ticket holder, so they are entitled to be consulted. But, if there is no financial commitment, I just do not understand how you can possibly meaningfully take the opinion of someone who just says, “Yeah, I’ve been at a couple of Liverpool games, I always watch them on TV and I’ve bought a scarf”. I am open to suggestions as to how we might pin this down better, but pin it down in the Bill we must.

[Lord Mann (Lab)]

My Lords, when it comes to taking opinion, I would rather not complicate things, but the divides that appear to be there are rather false ones, talking about issues that are not contained in the Bill but are contained on other issues.

I currently chair a supporters’ group that has branches all over the world. It has members—some season ticket holders, some not—who attend football. I am quite satisfied that the Bill says that supporters’ groups of different kinds should be consulted on issues that are of relevance to them.

I have a slight liking for “current and prospective” in the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, but possibly for different reasons from him, and I am not sure it can be encapsulated in statute, so I do not warm to the wording, even if I do to part of the meaning.

There is a danger at the moment that football, especially the Premier League and the higher echelons of the Championship, is full of people who are more like me, rather than young children. Season ticket waiting lists in the Premier League are prodigiously difficult to get up. There are long queues and many children are in them, which is a dilemma. Unless stadiums get bigger and bigger, which I would encourage, how do we get in the next generation of fans? If you do something as absurd as a team in Manchester has done and make it £66 for a child, in the long term you will probably lose competitive advantage. But the family and the children are losing something which is quintessentially British and English: being able to support their local team and occasionally go.

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[Lord Mann (Lab)]

I hope that not all fans agree with my supporters’ group, because we have a very distinct approach from other fan groups. My point is that there is a range of groups and that different fan groups have different perspectives, interests and ideals. Therefore, to attempt to define them in the Bill is so complex as to be impossible. That is why it is sensible to take the approach that the Government are taking: one that has some flexibility built in.

I will not go into great detail on the different kinds of fan groups. I believe that West Ham has nine, and you could argue about how many we have because there is the question of whether some are really fan groups or not. That is the complexity—and they have different perspectives.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

I will not prolong the discussion any further; it is important that we hear from the Minister instead. As we do so, I hope that we hear from her on the tension between the need for flexibility, which I understand, and the need for clarity so that the duties on the clubs, which are successful businesses, and on the regulator, which is a powerful new body, are also specified. We need that so that everybody, when they follow the Bill when it becomes an Act of Parliament, is clear on what they have to do, whether they are speaking to the fan group of the noble Lord, Lord Mann, or another about each of those duties.

Football Governance Bill [HL]

Lord Mann Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 2nd December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Markham (Con)]

Again, I hope the Minister will answer this point. This is what the shadow regulator was explaining to us last week. What is the one thing you can do short of that? You can look to de-risk the situation, particularly if your only criterion is sustainability at that club; in other words, it survives by you saying, “You have to put money on deposit”. That is exactly the model they were taking from the financial regulator and the banks; that is what I see as the whole problem.

It is fundamental. As my noble friend Lord Jackson’s amendment suggests, we could make sure that it is aware of the burdens of regulation, or, as some of the earlier amendments proposed, it could be about broadening the definition and objectives of the regulator so that it has other criteria at stake. I truly believe that, unless we widen it out—it is only one-dimensional—we really are going to harm the great game.

[Lord Mann (Lab)]

My Lords, I appreciate that it is a little unconventional to speak to the amendment, but I would like to make a few comments to the mover of the amendment and the Minister. The case was made that this is all about small clubs. I have met very many clubs outside of the Premier League and discussed this issue with them. They have raised many issues and changes that they would like to see, some of which might be controversial in the football world or in government but not in relation to this regulation Bill. I have not yet come across any club outside of the Premier League that has said that it is worried or opposes this Bill—not one. Perhaps the Minister might like to reflect on that.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Jackson of Peterborough for moving his Amendment 16. It has been well worth having a debate on this on its own because his short and simple amendment, if inserted into the Bill, would represent a vital step towards ensuring that the regulation of English football was both fair and economically responsible. It would require the independent football regulator to consider the potential economic harms of overregulation.

As my noble friend so eloquently established, overregulation is an issue that can choke off investment and disrupt growth in many industries. It can also, as my noble friend Lord Maude of Horsham powerfully reminded us by invoking the example of Brighton and Hove Albion, prohibit the visionaries and the innovators who help to drive industries and sectors forward. None of us wants to see that harmful effect happening in the case of this new regulator and the example of football.

--- Later in debate ---

If the Minister has not had a chance to look at that report yet, I hope she will and that she will bear in mind some of the points that my noble friend highlighted to us as we look at the bringing about of a new regulator. It is important that the Committee looks again at the real-life examples of regulators that Parliament has established over the years, to see how their scope increases. Their costs go up and they are tempted, both by contributions made in Parliament and by pressures put on them by vocal people who may not always represent the mean opinion of a sector, to take their work in further and new directions.

[Lord Mann (Lab)]

I was a member of that group and heavily involved in that work. Will the noble Lord reflect on the fact that all of its recommendations request that the regulator, the FCA, regulate more toughly and more appropriately, not less and more weakly, including the cases involving football that I am personally very involved in? That was a case for more and stronger regulation, not less.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his intervention and for mentioning that. The point remains that it would be beneficial for us to look at that report on the way in which the FCA is doing its work to see whether it is doing what Parliament asked it to do when it was set up and to see whether we agree with the points that the all-party group, of which he is a member, made in its recent report.

As a number of noble Lords from across the House have said in our debate on this group, the amendment simply requires the regulator to have regard to the risks inherent when regulating a large industry such as football. I am grateful to my noble friends Lord Moynihan and Lord Maude of Horsham for the benefit of their considerable expertise and to my noble friend Lord Hayward for going so forensically through the impact assessment published by the Minister’s department.

My noble friend Lord Jackson’s Amendment 16 represents another guardrail for the regulator to use to focus its attention when exercising its functions. It would complement some of the other amendments that I have tabled and which we have been looking at. Such simple insertions of text into the Bill may be criticised as unnecessary, but they are important. The language that we use when establishing in law new public bodies and new regulators is of supreme importance. It creates a starting point from which that body will grow or change and be investigated by all-party groups and Select Committees. What that starting point looks like and how it is clearly defined has the potential to shape its future trajectory. We are looking at a regulator we hope will do its work very successfully for generations to come. Surely, we want that trajectory to enable future growth and innovation—future visionaries—and to remain free from mission creep and expansion into areas which we do not want to see it moving in.

The proposed model of regulation in the Bill will require the frequent submission of reports and financial plans. These will, as per the licensing conditions and as per our debate on this group, all have to be approved before a regulated club is granted a licence and are a condition for it maintaining that licence. The monitoring and collection of that information will naturally require a large number of staff to help comply with the new regulation. Added to the costs of the levy, this could have damaging effects on regulated clubs—damaging effects, as my noble friend Lord Maude of Horsham and others powerfully set out, that would be felt most keenly by those at the lower end of the pyramid.

That is also particularly evident in the provisions in the Bill that require clubs which are no longer regulated, by virtue of their relegation, to continue to comply with the duties set out. Part 5, for instance, states that some of these duties will be applicable for up to 10 years after the club has been regulated. This ratchet effect means that clubs could still be required to submit a whole host of information to the regulator, even when they have diminished resources because they have dropped below the lower limit of the regulatory ambit envisaged by the Bill. I hope that we can all see the potential for harms here and the risks of those harms growing.

I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Bolton, for drawing the Committee’s attention to her Amendment 72. We should all take a careful look at it in light of the debate that we have had. We will touch on it when we come to that group later on, but I appreciate that it is an attempt to make that sort of regulatory burden easier on clubs. When we come to it, I will ask her more on how her amendment envisages the regulator potentially paying some money to clubs. I will be interested to hear her set that out, but that is for another group.

Football is not only an extremely popular pastime but a vital part of our economy, and the financial health of clubs has to be protected, as my noble friend Lord Jackson’s Amendment 16 seeks to do. By mandating a thorough assessment of the financial implications of the new regulator’s regulatory actions, his amendment would guarantee that clubs’ sustainability would never be overlooked in the pursuit of regulation or reform.

The requirement for regular reports to be submitted to the Secretary of State and laid before Parliament would add to the Bill’s parliamentary oversight, which it currently lacks. It would enhance the transparency of the new regime that we will be bringing in through this law and allow for prompt corrective action, if needed. That is an approach which aligns perfectly with Conservative values, but one which I hope would garner support from every corner of your Lordships’ House. As my noble friend Lady Brady has reminded us, the Prime Minister has recently spoken, to my mind encouragingly, about the risks of overregulation and the need for growth. I hope that these points will resonate with the Benches opposite and with the Minister too.

My noble friend’s amendment seeks to safeguard the future of football while maintaining accountability to Parliament. I know that he would have tabled an amendment such as this if we were still in the last Parliament. If I had found myself at the Dispatch Box opposite, I would have been responding to it. I must say that I would have looked very favourably on it. I think it seeks to strike the right balance between regulation and the economic vitality and viability of football clubs. I hope the Minister will look favourably on it as well.

Football Governance Bill [HL]

Lord Mann Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 4th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Goodman of Wycombe (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for intervening, because it buttresses the point I want to make. The Minister made it very clear on Monday that she was not aware of the hybridity issue that would arise were the leagues to be named in the Bill until that afternoon. It is evident, therefore, that someone in the department, as my noble friend said from the Front Bench, was aware of the hybridity issue under the last Government and under this one. I raise this as a member of the Delegated Powers Committee; when we received the view of the Government about why the leagues were not named in the Bill, the hybridity issue was not mentioned. It seems to me intuitively quite wrong that so important and real an issue should not have been named when the communication was made between the Government and the committee.

I am told that, procedurally, the people who speak on the Government’s behalf to those who brief us on the committee about the Bill are not obliged to tell the committee about the hybridity issue. If there is something as important as the hybridity issue, should the committee not be made aware of it somehow? I am grateful to the noble Lords opposite for raising the point about the Bill being much the same under the two Governments, as it is germane to the point I want to make.

[Lord Mann (Lab)]

My Lords, in one of the quaint ways that the Commons has of occasionally putting people, for whatever reason, on obscure committees, I found myself for 15 years on the hybrid Bill committee —one of the more obscure joys of life. I should just say that it was not the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, who put me on it.

[Baroness Taylor of Bolton (Lab)]

You should not offend the Whips.

[Lord Mann (Lab)]

There are vast numbers of Bills that could in theory be called hybrid Bills but are not, such as the Great British Railways Bill. It is a nonsense argument, and there are millions of football fans waiting to see some change made.

The thing that triggered the origins of the Bill, with Boris Johnson and others, was a European super league. If Parliament ever attempted to say that the clubs that tried to form a breakaway European super league have a specific hybridity status—in relation to the people, having voted for manifestos that wish to stop this, being able to do so—the whole concept of how we make rules of law would come into question. This Bill is not hybrid and could not be hybrid, in exactly the same way that vast numbers of other Bills which have an impact on various private businesses are not hybrid. I think many noble Members realise that.

[Lord Goddard of Stockport (LD)]

The noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, has hit the nail on the head. We did a bit of research as well; the question of whether this is a hybrid Bill was asked in the other place, and it confirmed that it is not, so it comes to us with that confirmation. The letter from the Minister is really helpful, in that it clarifies that position for these Benches, and we will be happy if the mover withdraws the amendment.

The best thing would be to retire this amendment gracefully today, bring it back on Report and if need be, force a vote on it and let people decide. This is endless. The Chief Whip said, “Let’s be brief”. We are now 30 minutes in, rehearsing the rehearsal of last week’s four hour debate.

The noble Baroness, Lady Brady, said that seven Premier League clubs met the Minister. I presume that the Minister invited all the Premier League clubs to that meeting; they would not have been selected. If only seven bothered to turn up, again, that gives you a clear—

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[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, briefly, if we are talking about influence, it is reasonable that we know what it means. As the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, has said, this is an example of why we have this Bill. There have been rogue owners, and one of the traditional ways they come in is by looking for a property deal on the site. It is important to remember that as an example of what happens when you get this wrong. We need to balance these two points together. I hope that, when the Minister comes to answer, she will at least start to shed light on how we will seek to do this.

[Lord Mann (Lab)]

My Lords, I have talked to quite a number of major new investors in English football and have not found one who opposes the general principle of having a regulator. They are quite relaxed about it, yet they are the major new investors. I think one reason is that, when people invest, they often find some hidden nasties that had not been disclosed about the investment and its finances. That extra element of transparency is not necessarily a discouragement to investors; it can be an encouragement, particularly to reliable, long-term investors.

If you talk to a random selection of football fans, one case that will always quickly crop up is the Glazers buying Manchester United, not with their own money but with leveraged buyouts. I am rather more benign about the Glazers, because their intentions were always very open: they were borrowing money from reliable sources and attempting to make a profit. I would not be too comfortable about that if it were my club, but it cannot be denied that what they did was clear, transparent and out in the open. Anybody who thinks that there are not people today who the fans believe are generous and beneficial owners who have put lots of their own money in, but who have in fact borrowed the money from sources that are not public, are being rather naive, because that is still a model through which people buy football clubs. Football clubs are easy to move money in and out of and speculative investment has proven over the last 20 years, particularly in English football, a reasonable bet and may continue to be so. Indeed, the whole case of the Premier League is that it will continue to be so, so the regulation being proposed is not necessarily an anti-business case.

There is another interesting aspect that does not come to light because we do not know about it. I hear from current and recent professional players about the impact and influence of agents. Are there now agents who are sufficiently powerful in the game, with the corporate entities they have created to own footballers and, more critically, footballers’ rights, that their unseen investment in a club could have an influence in ways that the wider public, including the fans, do not know about? It seems to me, from a fan perspective, that that is a problem for the health of the game. On balance, the good, long-term investor who could make good money —that seems to be a rational motive—will be in favour of this element of transparency and not against it.

[Lord Evans of Rainow (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Mann, with his very pertinent points on agents and fans. I rise briefly to support my noble friend’s Amendment 27 and to make a point about owners being fit for purpose, fans’ interests and consultations and unintended consequences. Along with other noble Lords, I spent last Friday afternoon with the shadow regulator. I asked whether they were aware of how unpopular they could be. I used the example that has already been used of Newcastle United, which has a new owner and a sovereign wealth fund, and the fans are excited because of the potential that brings. That is great, but what would this regulator make of the new ownership? Compare and contrast that with the previous owner, Mike Ashley.

Noble Lords will be aware of what Newcastle fans thought about Mike Ashley: in their eyes the team was underperforming and he was not investing in the club and its players. However, he was probably being prudent and working within the constraints of the rules of the game, and the regulator might have judged him to be a perfectly fit and proper person to run and own that club. I ask noble Lords to imagine a situation where the regulator says to a sovereign wealth fund owner, a country such as Saudi Arabia, “I do not believe you are a fit and proper person to take over and own this club”, but the fans think it would be wonderful. The regulator could end up in a situation with literally tens of thousands of protesters going down to Manchester from clubs like Newcastle.

As the noble Lord said, Brighton and Hove Albion supporters are very passionate, and he clearly did a good job there as a council leader. However, we know that fans will travel all around the country to support their team and we could end up with the unintended consequence of the regulator denying the potential of an owner to buy a club based on his set of rules and regulations, but tens of thousands of fans would disagree and we could have a situation where they would go down and protest. That could be one of the unintended consequences, so perhaps the Minister could let the House know whether the Government have thought of that.

Football Governance Bill [HL]

Lord Mann Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 4th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Brady (Con)]

My Lords, my understanding from the Premier League is that the Government’s estimated cost of the regulator is £10 million a year, and the Premier League considers that to be very low. We have heard a lot about how the regulator has been based on banking regulation, but the FCA costs £762 million a year and Ofcom costs £127 million a year.

It is worth noting that there are two critical but unrealistic assumptions in the impact assessment. First, it assumes perfect compliance, and, secondly, it focuses solely on ongoing compliance costs, such as information-gathering and engagement with the regulator and supporters. It does not account for the potential costs associated with, for example, licence conditions enforcement action that may arise through the commitments procedures. I completely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hayward.

In earlier debates in Committee, I read out what Mark Ives, the general manager of the National League, said:

“We are concerned about the costs … The expectation of how much it is going to cost clubs at a National League level is a huge concern—it may be a small amount of money, but it is a lot to the clubs”.


He went on to say that many clubs in the National League are run by volunteers. We should give the clubs an idea of what it will cost, so they can work that into the budget. Each club should know whether it will be fully funded and fully staffed, so it can do the right job.

We have heard throughout Committee that the powers will be extended. The more that the powers are extended then the more complicated the Bill will be, the more staff they will need and the more costs there will be. Each club has to pay that cost because it has to have a licence. The way that you discharge the cost of the regulator is to add it to the licence. All 116 clubs, even though they are not listed in the Bill, will need to obtain one of those licences to operate.

Cost is a huge concern. It appears from what has been said that the Premier League would be picking up the majority of that cost. There is a big difference in the Premier League between those at the very top and those at the very bottom; they have very different pressures on their finances. I can only endorse what my noble friend Lord Hayward said and urge the Minister to give us an indication.

[Lord Mann (Lab)]

I am curious. There have been a lot of detailed discussions over the last three years with the Premier League and with Premier League clubs—I was involved in many of them. The Premier League was suggesting—it was not the only one—that for people in the Premier League, and the Premier League as an institution, a model of self-regulation would be a lot better. It would be helpful to know what costing the Premier League has built into its model of self-regulation, as it was certainly thrown around as an alternative for quite some time.

[Lord Moynihan of Chelsea (Con)]

My Lords, I support all three amendments in this group, particularly Amendment 253. I am delighted to follow the noble Lords, Lord Jackson, Lord Markham and Lord Parkinson, in their advocation of these amendments. I declared my interests on Monday, but this evening I have a fairly massive conflict of interest. I do not believe that I am alone in the Chamber in having been forced not to watch Chelsea breach all the principles of equity by beating Southampton 5-1 as we sat here. The poignant thrust of this conflict would be if my football friends started telling me that my staying away from Chelsea matches is good luck for the team. Therefore, it is not without anguish that I stand before your Lordships.

I go back to my earlier warnings about the dangers of regulators. Such dangers are stark in the clauses that we seek to amend and in the amendments themselves. The questions that your Lordships have raised in the debate boil down to what it will cost overall. That is what clubs will be asking, and then they will be asking what it will cost them. The third question that will come to the mind of the clubs—except those luckless ones in the Premier League—is around what they are going to get. We will talk about that in a minute but, to go back to what it will cost overall, we have heard over and again that we have no idea. There are estimates, which are clearly—

[Lord Mann (Lab)]

I have met plenty of clubs that have given an estimate of the likely cost, including across the Premier League. There is no ambiguity around the kind of sum that many Premier League clubs are citing as to what they expect the cost to be.

[Lord Moynihan of Chelsea (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for that intervention but the fact remains that they cannot know what it will cost because, for a start, we do not have any certainty about what clubs will be in the scheme. We have been told what it might start at, but the Minister has said that she will not—

[Lord Mann (Lab)]

There have been extraordinarily levels of dialogue between the Premier League and the Government over a long period on this. The suggestion that the Premier League does not have some idea of the likely potential cost and has not spoken to clubs in relation to that is simply nonsense. I have spoken to clubs which have given specific estimates of what they anticipate it will be. Whether that is accurate or not, the idea that those figures have not been discussed at length is something of a fantasy.

[Baroness Brady (Con)]

I am sorry to intervene on the intervention, but I have not seen the noble Lord at any Premier League meetings; I have been to them all. I can assure him that we have never had a discussion about the potential costs, because we have never known what the potential costs are; no one has told them to us. We have looked at the impact assessment and that has given us a vague estimation, but to suggest that we have had a long, detailed discussion and debate, and that we understand and know what the costs are, is not correct.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Moynihan of Chelsea (Con)]

The noble Lord, Lord Markham, makes a very good point. If some local worthies approach you and ask, “Will you invest in this club?” and you say, “Well, I’ve got to figure out what it’s going to cost me”, and they then say, “You’ve also got to figure out whether your plans are going to be acceptable to the regulator”, again, you would turn your back. Entrepreneurialism is the heartbeat of the economy, as several noble Lords have said in this debate over the past few days. This regulator proposal just turns entrepreneurs away from wanting to invest.

[Lord Mann (Lab)]

It would be helpful if the noble Lord could give examples of entrepreneurs wishing to invest in football who he has spoken to. I have spoken to a lot of entrepreneurs, including people who have invested smaller amounts in smaller clubs and larger amounts in Premier League clubs. They know exactly what they are anticipating and what they are going into. Of course, as part of their business plan, they are factoring that in. There is a figure, there is a concept, and investment has not gone down in the past 18 months. Indeed, further major investment in major clubs in English leagues is likely to happen soon. What is going wrong if they are all running away? Can he give a single example?

[Lord Markham (Con)]

I posed the question, and I can give an example of that. I have mentioned to noble Lords before that I have experience of the Brighton situation and know the board and the set-up there quite well. Brighton is a perfect example, and it is a shame that the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, is not in his place, because he is very familiar with it. It was a club without a stadium or good training facilities. An owner, Tony Bloom, came in and invested a lot of money in it, with a plan predicated on investing in players and doing a lot of analysis to get the best ones from around the world. It was absolutely a start-up scenario where he was heavily investing, and part of that was the concept of being able to yo-yo in terms of having parachute payments. He cited to me the example of West Bromwich Albion, which at that time had been promoted and relegated and promoted and relegated, but each time, because they had the parachute payment, they were able to become more sustainable.

Suddenly you get a situation whereby someone is thinking, “I want to do another Brighton like Tony Bloom, but I do not know what my cost base will be. I do not know whether the regulator is going to stop me going on with my plans because it thinks I am unsustainable or make me deposit a large sum of money as a financial buffer. I do not know whether my parachute payments, which are part of my plan, are then going to be taken away. Suddenly I’ve got a hell of a lot more risk involved”. I can only believe that that is going to dampen enthusiasm to invest in the first place. That is a very real example.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hayward (Con)]

Sorry, I was just waiting for the Minister to conclude her paragraph. Can I just ask her to clarify the intervention made by the noble Lord, Lord Mann? He said—I am paraphrasing and am happy if he corrects my phraseology—quite clearly to the Committee that figures have been given to clubs as to what they were likely to pay. Is that correct, or is the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, correct, having been present at all the meetings with the Ministers, that no figures have been given to any clubs?

[Lord Mann (Lab)]

Figures have been given by the Premier League to clubs and clubs have been happy to cite those figures.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

To respond to that point, my understanding of what my noble friend Lord Mann said was that it related to the Premier League giving information to the clubs, rather than explicit information being given by the Government.

Football Governance Bill [HL]

Lord Mann Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 9th December 2024 Lords Chamber

I will pause here—and I am glad the Chief Whip is not in, because I know I will get in trouble—to say a shout-out to the fan activists. My final point is about the Spurs fans who are valiantly publicising the plight of Spurs-mad Emily Damari, the one remaining British citizen held hostage in the terror tunnels. There is heroic solidarity from them. She is one of us—bring her home.

[Lord Mann (Lab)]

My Lords, I am a little bewildered by the direction of the debate. Some of these amendments have been put to tease out the issues. My general commentary would be rather different from that of the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, who seemed very unkeen on the tremendous work being done across football by the clubs, which I commend. Indeed, I do not just commend it; I can quantify it. I reference my entry in the Register of Lords’ Interests as the Government’s adviser on anti-Semitism, then and now. I am particularly impressed by the first ever programme of anti-Semitism training in football, which was launched two years ago. There were a few eyebrows at first, with people asking, “What is this?” In two years, two-thirds of English football has volunteered to be trained. Significant numbers are having their academies trained and some are having players, the board and staff trained. It is particularly interesting and valuable that the biggest single piece of training in the city of Leeds—ever—was the training of Leeds United stewards under this programme.

I am delighted that Liverpool Football Club will be one of many clubs starting in the new year. The list of engagements on this in the first quarter of next year is quite formidable—but there is space for more. This is a success in football, because of what it said to the small number of Jewish players, Jewish staff and Jewish fans: you are valued here.

Just last week, I was at Leyton Orient, where the Jewish supporters’ group sponsored the match against Bristol Rovers. Leyton Orient outperformed anything they had done this season as a response. There will be the first-ever Hanukkah events at Fulham Football Club and at Leeds United Football Club. Other new groups are being formed. Other groups have existing events around Hanukkah and Holocaust Memorial Day. This is a positive, and it is not to the exclusion of any other group. Indeed, we find that other small groups of people who perhaps do not see many people like themselves in the stadium, on the pitch or in the club also welcome it. I have seen clubs embrace that as well. If I was running a club, which I have no desire to do—sometimes I would like to influence one or two of the footballing decisions, but would not we all?—then I would want my club to do that and welcome it. I would call it a good business plan.

On the whole question of diversity, one of its weaknesses and the reason why I tabled an amendment, just to tease out what the Government think—not because I think this is a good regulation necessarily but it should be good club business—is that there is a deficit in the number of black players getting into the better coaching and managerial jobs. That is clearly to the detriment of our national game. Their talent is not being used. How that is captured and by whom is, of course, important, but from a business point of view it is a competitive disadvantage if a large group of participants in the game are then not getting into the coaching and managerial side even vaguely relative to the numbers who participate as players. It is clearly a weakness, and whichever clubs are best at addressing that will have a competitive advantage. I am interested in teasing out and listening to the Minister on how we can help football to grab that.

I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, that the overall picture is that football is full of EDI officers. I have had the pleasure of meeting many of them over the last two years —indeed a majority in English football. They are excellent people doing brilliant work. They are out doing work in the community as well, supporting young players from a range of backgrounds. They are a key strength in the clubs and in the clubs’ business plans, as well as in the communities. They should be commended. The more we can encourage that by whatever means, the better we will be doing our job.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Mann. He is a man of great good sense and pragmatism. In fact, I could have agreed with most of what he said but, unfortunately, on this occasion I will not agree with his amendment.

First of all, I will go back to the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, which I agree with. It is very sensible, and the Minister would be wise to accept it. But his preamble was simply wrong. It presupposes that external forces are exerting inappropriate pressure on this side to make cases in their favour, which is completely untrue. I say that because we on this side are merely going through the proper process of scrutiny and oversight, which is our job, to test the efficacy or otherwise of the Bill. Remember: we had a general election, and we have a new Administration, a new Bill and a new Opposition. Therefore, we are quite within our rights to challenge the Bill on its face.

I pray in aid figures from the past few years about the number of Committee days given over to various Bills in this House. The Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act 2011 had 17 sitting days. We have six. The Children and Families Act 2014 had 12 sitting days, and the Localism Act 2011 had 10. There are a number of examples. Much as I hugely respect the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, I respectfully disagree with him.

I move on to the specific issues of, particularly, Amendment 156 from the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, and Amendment 249 from the noble Lord, Lord Mann. These are two quite insidious amendments; I find them quite Orwellian, actually. It is not that we do not trust local football clubs to do the right thing in terms of community outreach, working with their community and improving equality and diversity, but noble Lords are being asked to put those powers into a regulator that will develop a national template. Whether, therefore, you are Bristol Rovers, Brentford, Brighton and Hove Albion or Bradford City—to use some alliteration—you will be told what you have to put in place in terms of your EDI policies, which I do not think is right. It nationalises corporate philanthropy and community outreach. It is also a displacement activity, because it presupposes that that work is not already being done.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Mann]

65: Clause 7, page 5, line 26, at end insert—
“(d) adverse impact on women’s football.”

[Lord Mann (Lab)]

My Lords, Amendment 65 is not about whether women’s football should be covered by the Bill; it is about something quite different. I will very briefly illustrate it with an issue that would arise at a regulated club, the National League Solihull Moors Football Club, should this Bill go through. I do not know whether the issue has been resolved and, in a sense, that is rather incidental to my point.

The issue, from what I have ascertained, is that Solihull Moors has a women’s football team as well as a men’s football team and, because of that, with a licence, it would be regulated under the men’s football team. The women’s football team would be quite separate, but the women’s football team plays in the same complex as the men’s team. Also, the business had been structured with a set of community interest companies that were required to break even. The one that the women’s football team played on did not break even, which led to them being thrown off their pitch. However, the facility had been part-funded by the Football Foundation.

That is a particular comment on Solihull Moors, but also a real example from this year. Using it as an illustration, in that situation, where funding has been received and a women’s club has been, as some claim, thrown off so they are not able to play on a facility, is this an issue for the regulator? It should be. The regulator could, for example, look at whether the moneys that were given by the Football Foundation should be repaid. While it is a small issue in monetary terms, if you are a women’s football club and you are thrown off the pitch, it is a big issue. So the reason for tabling this amendment is to see whether this kind of situation is covered. If it is not, I suggest it requires an amendment similar to or the same as the one I have tabled. I beg to move.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

My Lords, I rise in support and to give an example of a similar unintended consequence. This is around the 3 pm kick-off on Saturday games and not allowing those to be televised. Again, that was set up exactly because Premier League games, if they were televised, would impact the attendance of the Championship League and other EFL games, because they knew that people would be watching those games instead. Within that regulatory framework, they had a view on the impact of how that one competition could impact the other competitions.

In a similar way, what the noble Lord, Lord Mann, is trying to do is to add, in proposed new paragraph (d), the impact on the women’s game and make sure that it is one of the considerations taken into account. Without it, you could be taking action around the men’s games in the competition that has those unintended consequences—so I support it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Mann (Lab)]

That would be highly useful of the Minister, and I thank her.

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

The Government will continue to support the FA and Women’s Professional Leagues Ltd as the women’s game forges its own path. We completely understand the desire to see appropriate protections put in place for women’s football. As I said, I have a historical vested interest in that I was not allowed to play football at school, and none of us wants to see issues like those at Reading, where the women’s team suffers as a result of issues at the affiliated men’s club. My noble friend Lord Mann gave the example of Solihull Moors, which was also cited by the noble Lord, Lord Goddard.

At present the intention is that this will be a regulator for the men’s game, and we have already discussed the reasons for that. Asking the regulator to then consider its impact on the women’s game could constitute a widening of that scope. I am confident that this is something that the industry authorities governing the women’s game will be able to tackle through their own rules for women’s clubs with affiliated men’s teams. They deserve the time, space and opportunity to do so.

I apologise if some of the language in the Explanatory Notes came across as clunky or inappropriate. I am confident that that was not the intention of those drafting them.

The Government’s position is in line with the recommendations of Karen Carney’s independent review of domestic women’s football, which was published in July 2023. The review recommended that the women’s game should be given the opportunity to self-regulate rather than moving immediately to independent statutory regulation, and the Government support that recommendation.

On Amendment 72 in the name of my noble friend Lady Taylor of Bolton, I agree that the regulator should help clubs to comply with regulations as much as reasonably possible. It is in everyone’s interest for clubs to become compliant quickly and with as little additional burden as possible. That is why provisions for a collaborative approach are already in place. The regulatory principle in Clause 8(b) encourages the regulator to,

“so far as reasonably practicable, co-operate, and proactively and constructively engage, with … clubs”.

The regulatory principle in Clause 8(c) also encourages the regulator to be proportionate.

For the reasons I have set out, I am unable to accept the amendments in this group and I hope that my noble friends and noble Lords will not press them.

[Lord Mann (Lab)]

I look forward to receiving the letter from the Minister. I will say—and officials may be listening in—that if we had a situation where a football club had a licence and was being regulated by the regulator, and that football club then threw its women’s team off their pitch so that they could not play, the regulator would look particularly stupid and impotent, and doubtless would be suggesting that the Government and Parliament may need to amend the law. I hope this matter can be looked at to see whether there is a way in which we can get around that without giving extra powers to the regulator, so I look forward to receiving that letter and I am sure other noble Lords do as well. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 65 withdrawn.

Football Governance Bill [HL]

Lord Mann Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 9th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shamash (Lab)]

My Lords, Amendment 80 in my name seeks to include football supporters’ trusts on the face of the Bill to ensure that they are consulted on all matters relating to fan engagement as set out in the Bill. It is not intended to restrict the regulator, as the Bill states, or to restrict other fan groups being involved.

I declare an interest in that I am currently a director of Manchester United Supporters Trust and was its former chairman over the past decade. It is a very substantial trust with over 100,000 members, and initially came into being in 1998 in opposition to the Murdoch bid for the club, followed by the bitterly opposed leveraged takeover by the Glazer family in 2005. However, in the last decade, the trust has developed a constructive relationship with senior management which delivers fan consultation and representation for supporters. Supporters’ trusts are uniquely equipped to perform this role, and every club would benefit from engaging with such a body.

Currently, there are 149 supporters’ trusts across the football pyramid: 16 in the Premier League, 18 in the Championship, 20 in League One, 15 in League Two and 80 in non-league football. Most, if not all, trusts are registered with the FCA and operate under the Co-operative and Community Benefit Societies Act 2014.

I invite my noble friend the Minister to accept this amendment on the basis that supporters’ trusts provide an existing substantive platform for fans to have a voice in club decisions. It is a structure that should be utilised to the benefit of football as a whole. It is an existing and vibrant structure that I envisage the independent regulator would welcome working with from the outset.

It is important for the Committee to appreciate the many facets of supporters’ trusts and how they contribute to football as a whole. Invariably, the trusts are democratically elected, operating, as I have said, under FCA-approved constitution and rules. They help to ensure the interests of the wider fan base and community they represent. This is vital in sustaining the contact with fans and in the case of smaller clubs.

Trusts often emphasise local community values and initiatives. The trust can help to maintain strong ties with the local fan base, fostering a sense of belonging and identity. This is relevant to the Premier League as well as non-league clubs. Many clubs have charitable foundations that, in my experience, work closely with their trusts. Foundations work with local schools, using their links with the club to assist teachers in their roles. Many also support local food banks.

Trusts, by raising funds through their membership and donations, can contribute to the financial health of the club. This can be particularly beneficial in the smaller clubs that face financial difficulties, as has been seen in recent history, where trusts have been instrumental in saving their clubs.

Trusts invariably advocate for transparency in club operations, hoping to make club management accountable. This can, of course, lead to better governance practices and more ethical decision-making. The Bill, of course, very helpfully and constructively sets out the criteria which clubs and fan groups have to take into account. Supporters’ trusts wish to focus on the long-term sustainability of their club rather than short-term profits, which is often the case for the owners of clubs. This perspective can lead to more responsible management of resources. Where supporters’ trusts are represented on club boards, they can influence strategic decisions, ensuring that the fan perspective is included in the governance, which, of course, is crucial.

All fans can join trusts, and this can promote inclusivity within the club, assuring that the fans, regardless of background, have the opportunity to participate in club activities and governance. As has been seen in times of crisis, such as financial troubles or ownership disputes, trusts can mobilise fan support to advocate for the club’s best interests, potentially influencing outcomes in the interests of supporters and the club as a whole. An obvious recent example was the attempt by a few clubs, including Manchester United, to establish a closed European super league.

Overall, supporters’ trusts enhance the governance of football clubs by fostering a more inclusive, accountable and community-oriented approach. Therefore, with great respect to my noble friend the Minister, I urge that this amendment be accepted.

[Lord Mann (Lab)]

My Lords, my Amendment 81 stands in contrast to my noble friend’s amendment, which is very exclusive in suggesting that the only format of supporters’ group should be the trust format. In this country and, indeed, across the rest of the world there is a huge range of different kinds of football cultures and football groups.

I should declare an interest, of course. Although I have no pecuniary interest whatever—I own no shares, and I receive no dividends or payments—I have the joy, or the pain, of being able to discuss with my many thousands of members the trials and tribulations of Leeds United Football Club. A number are in this Chamber even this evening—more than one.

However, there are different kinds of fan group. If the Government—or, at a later stage, the House—wish to see the regulator having to liaise with fan groups, then in essence there is a range of choices. It could be randomised—whoever the regulator chooses, but that seems neither appropriate nor efficient. It could be, as my noble friend suggests, exclusively for the trusts, or it could be, as I am suggesting, any fan group that has some kind of democratic structure. The reason for a democratic structure is that you are then representing somebody rather than representing yourself.

Football Governance Bill [HL]

Lord Mann Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 16th December 2024 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Mann]

129: Clause 16, page 10, line 14, at end insert—
“(e) setting out all financial arrangements with external agents or other intermediaries involved in contacts or recruitment, or both.”

[Lord Mann (Lab)]

My Lords, I again refer noble Lords to my interests in the register relating to this debate. I was in a meeting with the chair of the supervisory board of one of the more successful German football clubs discussing regulation. I asked him if there was one thing that could be done to improve football from regulation inside England what it would be. His advice was that the best thing that could be done—which is not actually available to us in this House as an amendment—would be to tax football agents in the UK through the British tax system.

Why might the head of a major football club—a competitor—wish to see that happen? If that happened—or if anything else threw into question the transparency of football finances, particularly in relation to the acquisition and departure of the key asset players—behaviour would be modified. I recall discussions with people who gave graphic detail of how, in the olden days—but not old enough for me not to have seen it happen—there was the notion of “cash in the boot”. A player would be signed to a team, suddenly and unexpectedly, and would play a few games. In doing so, cash would be handed over. I do not think that; I know that. I will not cite examples even though I could—it would not be fair to do so—but that was not uncommon.

In the modern game—today’s game—the amounts of money are much greater. One has seen situations where football clubs get into financial problems, usually because of relegation from the Premier League, and do not seem to know who owns their assets. There is a myriad of situations. That includes contract details—I can think of some in the recent past, where the fans, sponsors and others were rather bemused to find that certain players were able to go, at no fee, to play for other teams because of a clause in the contract that most people were unaware of.

My Amendments 129 and 248 seek to deal with the specific problem of how agents behave. There are examples I could cite where, pre transfer, players have been sold or bought for significant amounts of money and, literally at the very last moment, they suddenly change agents. I will give a hypothetical example, rather than shine too much specific light. Let us say that a player is sold for many tens of millions, and they have a single agent. The day before their transfer documents are signed, they then change agency. The agent then sues the player for their loss—for the cut that they would have got—even though the agents’ fees are very significantly higher than the worth of the individual agent. Why would anyone choose to do that? If you are a purchasing club and you are competing with others for a prized asset, you might well be prepared to pay more money and whatever requirements there are. But why would a selling club do that? What would the advantage be? The answer is there is zero advantage to a selling club—none—or, potentially, a disadvantage. If there are £15 million or £20 million in agents’ fees, that amount of money might come in to your club. So what is the motivation?

One of the things that has bedevilled football across the world, not just English football, has been people taking a percentage. I have spoken to people who have been offered money to give statistics on 12 and 13 year-olds in their own club—a cash-based suggestion that would accumulate over time, should the player get to a level of being worth lots of money. That is the minutia, but the major cases will involve major financial transactions. Fans are often perplexed by certain purchases and the amounts of money spent on players. They say, “What is going on here? This player does not appear to be worth quite that amount of money, or indeed anything near it. It must be because of bad football decisions”.

I put it to the Committee that perhaps the transactions are determined not always by football decisions but by loans. Most fans can cite times they have been bemused when their club has loaned a player in and paid a very large amount of money to do so, even though no one has ever heard of them before. The player then disappears a year on, and no one ever hears of them again. Why would you pay £1 million or £2 million to loan a player who no one has heard of, who has no track record and who then has no future track record?

The taxman has an interest, which is why, if I were able to do so and it would have been within the rules of this Committee, I would have proposed that taxing agents via the UK tax system would be the best answer. While that does not give public transparency, it seems that it would mediate behaviour. However, these two amendments seek to allow the regulator—not the general public—to be able to see and assess what is being paid and what is in the contracts. That would not be in a public way, but in a private way—and that would modify such behaviour.

If we are interested in competition in the sport, taking out externalities that have nothing to do with the business of the sport is in the interests—including the business interests—of the industry and the sport. Shining a light so that people do not feel it would be appropriate to do their decision-making based on how much they receive as a reward for their wisdom in, say, selling a player would be to the health of the game. Anyone in the Committee who thinks that does not happen, and has not happened, is being extremely naive. Anyone who thinks that this happens only at the lower end—the non-league, with a bit of cash in a back pocket—is also being naive.

Because of the way the football business has worked, there is a lot of money to be made, and people have managed to find ways—legally—of making additional profits for themselves, particularly out of the movement of the key asset players. These two amendments seek to allow at least the regulator to see exactly what is going on. Indeed, this is important in the critical situation where, say, a club does not own the assets that everyone thinks it has, because it has managed to sell them off in advance to some third party and therefore cannot cash in on them. There are examples that I am very familiar with, where clubs have gone insolvent because of that. In some way, this power needs to be in the Bill, unless the Government could be persuaded that HMRC would be a better decision-making body and have all football agents’ transactions in this country taxed through the UK tax system. I beg to move.

[Lord Goddard of Stockport (LD)]

My Lords, I was getting overexcited listening to the noble Lord, Lord Mann, because we have lives outside this Chamber, and for my sins, I go in the Dog and Duck every now and again, where, somehow, people find out that I am involved with this Bill. My pint goes flat before I have had a chance to drink it, because they ask, “Well, why do you not get this sorted?”

One of the main questions that comes across is: “What are you going to do about the agents?” I did not think that that was really grating with supporters, but it is—from the top right to the bottom. I know because I support Manchester City, which used to be at the top, and I look after, where I can, Stockport County, who are reasonably not near the bottom any more.

Supporters are human beings. They work hard and pay their money to go to watch the football. Nothing grates more than when they find out how much agents get for doing these deals. As has been said, there is confusion about player ownership. Do two or three people own a player? Does a company own a third of that player? If we wish to sell that player, does that mean we need the permission of those other people before we can sell him? Is that value for the club? Those issues need teasing out.

I am attracted to the idea of an agent having to pay UK tax, which would really add some clarity to the Bill. To be honest, supporters do not quite get it. I am not saying that I am above them or anything like that, but they see it as nebulous. They want to know what practical things the regulator can do for them as football supporters. If the Government were fleet of foot, they would put agents’ fees at the front of the Bill and say that any agent of a UK footballer should pay tax in the UK. That would be universally supported by all supporters.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Mann (Lab)]

My Lords, I am very reassured by the Minister’s clear words about the powers of and information from agents. Despite the valiant efforts of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, we may be on the same side here, because I am in defence of British agents. With the complexities of football, there is nothing to stop anybody getting a legal cut from a transfer fee. The more transparency that is thrown on that, the more money is kept in the game.

The irony is that probably the main source of my information is agents. A second source is players and a third is owners and investors. The power of the agencies is often greater than that of the clubs themselves. That is the direction of travel. Therefore, it will be beholden on the regulator to ensure that at least there is maximum transparency. If a club wishes to give £1 million to another club in, say, Sicily for a player no one has ever heard of and who has played for two or three minutes, that is obviously a good business decision. The more out in the open that is, the healthier future the game has.

After that genuinely helpful reassurance from the Minister on my amendments, I seek the leave of the Committee to withdraw Amendment 129.

Amendment 129 withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Shamash (Lab)]

My Lords, I am a very happy Manchester United fan. The last few minutes of yesterday’s game were bliss; they reminded us of what happened in 1999 when we won the treble.

I rise to talk again in relation to supporters’ trusts. I have been pressing this; I pressed it in debate the last week and, indeed, at Second Reading. The supporters’ trusts should be there on the face of the Bill. As I mentioned last week, there are 149 supporters’ trusts in the pyramid. Nearly all of them are recognised by the FCA and they operate under the Co-operative and Community Benefit Societies Act.

I ask my noble friend the Minister: why reinvent the wheel? We have a structure that works; it works very well indeed. I would ask that my amendment, “including supporters’ trusts”, be accepted. We understand—we are not trying to be prescriptive—that there will be other fan groups and people who might like to become involved in communicating with the club, but, having supporters’ trusts that exist throughout the UK, it would be a very sensible and easy move to make. I hope this amendment will be accepted.

[Lord Mann (Lab)]

My Lords, there is nothing wrong with supporters’ trusts, but working-class fans have other models as well, historically and currently; that voice also needs to be heard. Supporters’ trusts are one model and should be empowered, but they are only one model for football.

I have eight amendments here more or less doing the same thing. There is an issue here, which the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, alluded to and spoke to, with the fan advisory boards. There is a fundamental choice here, and I would advise the Government to be careful with the politics of this. Some clubs are choosing the fans to go on their fan advisory board; it is not the fans choosing the representation but the clubs. That is one model, but it is many miles away from the Crouch review. It is the total opposite of what fans would hope to see. The fans in this country have not gone for the German model and demanded comparative boards, 50% et cetera, supervisory boards, and that kind of power in relation to the clubs.

I have helped to establish a range of Jewish supporters’ groups. These are Jewish supporters who want no more than to be meeting up with other Jewish supporters of their club—full stop. But they do hope as well to be able to give the occasional bit of advice, sometimes very productively and positively, to their club—if the club does not refuse, as one has, to recognise a large group of Jewish supporters who simply want to be themselves—and, if there are any issues, they want to be listened to. It might be about the provision of kosher food, or ticketing policy, or that there are a lot of fixtures on a Friday night and people are finding it difficult to be religiously observant and still be able to go. It might be to do with giving advice on issues relating to racism within the stadium. On issues like these, this is a group that should be listened to; it is not a group that should have the power to tell a club what to do.

But the idea that fan advisory boards should be chosen by the club is anathema to fans. Fans are perfectly capable of choosing their own representatives. Let us think about what will happen if this Bill goes forward and the regulator has powers, but clubs can still say to fans, “No, we will choose who the fan voices will be. We will pick persons 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. They will be there under our criteria. You, the fans, will have no say”. What will happen is that conflict will emerge, and the Government will not come out of the conflict well. The perception will be that the Government had the chance to ensure this.

Let us think about a supporters’ trust, made up of people giving of their free time to organise. As a member, you elect whoever to be your representatives, and they are then your representative; it is not the club coming in and saying, “No, we will pick Lord Shamash because we love Lord Shamash. If he is elected, that is all well and good because he represents what we would like to see in Manchester United”. That would be an invidious position for anyone to be in. I hope the Minister can give some reassurance that the fan voice on those big issues—moving the ground, changing the colour, changing the name—will actually be a fan voice. If it is not, then government and Parliament will become unpopular at some stage.

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

My Lords, I want to respond very briefly to Amendment 224 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Mann. He made a wonderful peroration, but I am not sure it bore much relation to the amendment that he has laid down. Of course, none of us wants clubs to hand-pick fans who will be nodding dogs— ersatz fans who will go along with the corporate line of the football club. We do not want that.

I am not sure if this is a probing amendment for Ministers to consider before we get to Report, but it is a lock. It locks in and fetters the discretion of football clubs to make decisions that might be existential for the future of that club; in other words, diversifying activities, and not just in terms of the freehold. Clause 46 specifically mentions—

[Lord Mann (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for giving way. If it was proposed that Peterborough was to be moved to King’s Lynn, or to Norwich, should not the Peterborough fans have the right of veto on moving their club out of their town?

[Lord Jackson of Peterborough (Con)]

Perish the thought. There are many Peterborough fans who do not live in the city of Peterborough but in the Fens; they may not be too displeased at going to King’s Lynn—not that I am in any sense proposing that. He alludes to the Posh. The Posh have been able to develop a number of commercial activities over the last few years. Darragh MacAnthony, the owner, started out in 2007 as a very rich man. Now he is just a rich man, because of his love for Peterborough United.

The point is that that club has been able to stay afloat financially because the board of the club, backed—disproportionately I would say—by the fan base, has supported the diversity of activities. The noble Lord’s amendment and Clause 46 as written would lock out the possibility of many clubs and boards making decisions to protect their long-term financial sustainability.

I respectfully say to the noble Lord, for whom, as he knows, I have huge respect—particularly for the great work he has done on kicking out anti-Semitism in football—that that is a different issue from regulated fans and setting up fan organisations. This amendment would be quite prescriptive for clubs, and it would not be in their long-term interests, particularly those teetering on the edge of financial instability and unsustainability. For that reason, I hope the Minister will consider these issues when she responds to the noble Lord’s amendment and others.

[Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)]

My Lords, I will speak to my Amendment 138A on what consultation means. The wording—

“leave out ‘consults’ and insert ‘meets regularly with’”—

is taken from the Explanatory Notes. On page 44, paragraph 271, under the heading “fan consultation”, they say the following:

“This mandatory licence condition … requires clubs to regularly meet with a group which the IFR considers representative of the club’s fans, which could be a group elected by the club’s fans”.


Throughout these debates, many noble Lords have quoted the Fair Game document, which refers to fan engagement as a communication process, and to a range of formal and informal face-to-face processes being part of that. That is what I am trying to get across here. It is important that clubs meet regularly with the fans and do not just consult. To consult could mean anything. It is not exclusive—of course, it could take various forms—but they must meet regularly. I hope that ultimately, the Government will accept that. It remains to be seen, but I will return to this issue on Report because it is very important.

I will comment on some other issues that noble Lords have raised, particularly my noble friend Lord Mann, who I usually agree with. I did not really take to his dismissive comment in response to my noble friend Lord Shamash. My noble friend Lord Mann said that it is all very well having supporters’ trusts, but you need organisations with working-class members. I do not know much about the Manchester United Supporters Trust, but I am sure it has working-class members.

I am a member of two trusts and have been for some 20 years. One is in Scotland—my old club, Dundee United; I pay £15 per year for that. I am also a member of the AFC Wimbledon trust, called the Dons Trust. I pay the princely sum of £10 per year for that. For that reason, I think there are more than a few working-class fans. I think that my noble friend Lord Mann was suggesting that supporters’ trusts price some fans out. I do not know if that is the case, but I would not have thought so. By definition, you would think that would be rather pointless.

[Lord Mann (Lab)]

My noble friend has misinterpreted my comments. Supporters’ trusts—I have been heavily involved in one as well—have all sorts of members, but there are other kinds of organisations that have never had the objective that supporters’ trusts have. That is the point: there are different types of organisations. Some purely want to go and watch football and not take on the more significant interests and structures that supporters’ trusts have.

[Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend, and I fully accept that point; I have misinterpreted what he said. He seemed to be suggesting that trusts were different from other supporters’ groups. There are a wide range of groups and that is exactly the way it should be.

I am afraid I cannot go along with my noble friend’s Amendments 139 and 140. I am not opposed to them per se, but he seems to be distinguishing between fans and elected representatives of club supporters’ groups. Surely, these are the same people: you cannot be an elected representative of a supporters’ group if you are not a fan.