Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay
Main Page: Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Conservative - Life peer)Football Governance Bill [HL]
Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay ExcerptsMonday 2nd December 2024
(1 week, 3 days ago)
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“(3) For the purposes of this Act, English football is sustainable if it—(a) continues to meet the needs of present fans without compromising the ability of future generations of fans to enjoy and benefit from the club, including through the club continuing to operate a team in club competitions, in a way that represents the unique heritage of the club as recognised by its fans, and respects the interests of these fans;(b) continues to contribute to the economic and social welfare of the communities with which regulated clubs are associated, including, but not limited to, direct or indirect positive effects on the income of local businesses, cultural enrichment, or the reputation of the local area.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment intends to create a more precise definition of the sustainability of English football.
Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
My Lords, Amendment 7 begins this group of amendments on this important Bill. It would expand the definition of,
“the sustainability of English football”.
On day one, we had a useful debate—although it was longer than the Committee Whip might have wished—about the purpose of the Bill and the limits of sustainability. As the Bill is drafted, the only definition of
“the sustainability of English football”
is, as the Minister pointed out to us in our debates on the previous groups, Clause 1(3)(a) and (b). Paragraph (a) states that English football is sustainable if it,
“continues to serve the interests of fans of regulated clubs”,
and paragraph (b) specifies that it must continue,
“to contribute to the economic or social well-being of the local communities with which regulated clubs are associated”.
That is all we have to go on in the Bill. The criteria for the success of this important and novel Bill therefore rest upon these two simple lines.
Our contention is that these brief and rather vague statements of intent are not sufficient to act as the foundations on which the success, or otherwise, of this Bill and this new regulator are to be judged. The actions of this regulator will have significant consequences for the whole football pyramid. It is vital, therefore, that we ensure that it has the necessary legislative tools and the clarity of message from Parliament to set it up for success. To do that, it must have in statute a strong set of conditions against which its actions and its regulatory work can be assessed. This echoes the fruitful discussion we had on our first day in Committee about the underlying purpose of the Bill.
However, my Amendment 7 is about much more than this. It is about setting a precedent. If we do not establish from the outset the frames of reference and the standards to which the regulator will have to be held, that does not set it up for a successful future. It is surely the duty of this Committee and of Parliament more broadly to hold public bodies to higher standards than these two rather short and insubstantial lines we have in the Bill at the moment. That is why I look forward to my noble friends Lord Maude of Horsham and Lord Markham setting out the case for their Amendments 12 and 13, and I will say a bit more once they have done so.
Lord Markham (Con)
My Lords, I will speak to my Amendment 13. I echo the points made by my noble friends Lord Maude and Lord Jackson: if the Chief Whip had stayed and heard the debates last week and this week, he would have found real experts and real, passionate supporters—dare I say fans—scrutinising the Bill and making sure there is real health and success there. I believe we would all be doing this whatever colour of Government had introduced it.
Last week, if noble Lords recall, we were left scratching our heads somewhat about how there was some sort of aversion to the use of the words “growth” and “success” in all this. That is what we are trying to address in Amendments 12 and 13, both with a similar purpose. To answer the noble Lord, Lord Addington, this is vital because the pyramid structure and the health of all clubs depend on the health at the top of the Premier League, because the redistribution of that money funds so many of the other clubs and is allowing the Championship to be the sixth-richest league in the world as a result.
I really do not understand the Government’s reluctance to engage in these types of measures. There are precedents in other regulators. Everyone knows about the Bank of England’s inflation target, but also within its targets is a target to facilitate the international competitiveness of the UK economy and its growth in the medium to long term. Other regulators such as Ofcom, Ofgem and Ofwat have a growth duty to look at innovation, infrastructure and investment, competition, skills, efficiency and productivity, trade and environmental sustainability. It is very clear that other regulators are being asked to consider these other measures of overall success in their objectives.
Why does it matter? Like other noble Lords, I think the meeting we had with the shadow regulator last week was very helpful. It is undoubtedly true that the intentions of all the people there are very good. Like all of us, they are trying to make sure that the game we love is protected, but the shadow regulator’s thinking on sustainability is very much in the mould of a bank regulator’s. The main method it sees achieving sustainability is to insist—as the FCA does with banks—that a certain amount of money is put on deposit to give a buffer, a certain comfort, to clubs. Numbers have been bandied around—it may be £20 million or so per club in the Premier League. Those are large numbers; £400 million will go out of the game because it will be held in aspect. That amount of money has a real impact. If the regulator has only a one-dimensional objective on sustainability, it will always be weighted towards putting more and more money aside as a buffer. However, if it has other objectives in its definition of sustainability, it will take other factors into account.
I think noble Lords know that all the successful companies we see today, such as the magnificent seven that people talk about—the Googles, Microsofts, Facebooks and Teslas of the world—had an early start-up stage when there was heavy investment and their costs far exceeded their income. We absolutely see that in football clubs. The story of Brighton was mentioned earlier, and I happen to know a thing or two about it. I think we would all agree that it is a fantastic success story. For years and years, that success was reliant on Tony Bloom, the owner of Brighton, putting his hand in his pocket to invest more in players than the club’s income. He believed that, just like in any start-up company, you have to make that investment. That will build success, and from that you will manage to get promoted and get to a more and more sustainable position. He was able to achieve that.
Not every club can achieve that because, as we all know, not every club can get promoted. But the danger is that if the regulator’s only dimension is sustainability, it would look at business plans such as Brighton’s and say, “Hang on, they’re going to run a deficit if they stay in that league. That doesn’t sound very secure. How are we going to guard against that? We’ll make them put a certain amount of money into escrow as a buffer”. That will undoubtably dampen innovation, which is exactly the opposite of what we want. We all know that the beauty and the strength of English football are in the fact that clubs can get promoted and go on to do wonderful things, and we all know of plenty of examples.
Unless a regulator has more than one dimension—more than one club in its locker—it will only ever look at the sustainability angle and put more and more money aside. That is where I am coming from with Amendment 13, which is similar in intent to Amendment 12. It is from my knowledge of selling TV rights and of what people are really looking for. It is all about TV viewership, sporting competitiveness, the income that is generated and match attendance. To the point from the noble Lord, Lord Watson, those things are all clear and measurable; they are all things that a regulator should want for the health of the game.
I hope that when the Minister answers, she will let us know why we would not want to follow the lead of the regulators of the Bank of England, Ofwat, Ofgem or all the others, and give this regulator more than one dimension. I know the Minister really wants to see the health of the game and that everyone has good intentions. That is why this debate is so good—we all want what is best for the game. Widening the basket of measures that the regulator seeks to achieve can be only good for the health of the game.
Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friends Lord Markham and Lord Maude of Horsham for speaking to their amendments and for setting out the case for them. Before the Minister responds to them and to my Amendment 7, which I moved at the outset, I should say that I am not precious about my amendment vis-à-vis those of my noble friends in this group, Amendments 12 and 13.
The noble Lord, Lord Watson of Invergowrie, said that he did not like my wording and found it rambling and insubstantial. I take no offence; I simply took the wording that the Government used in the Explanatory Notes and sought to put that in the Bill. If he finds that rambling, it may be that the Explanatory Notes are as well.
Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab)
The point I was making was that the wording was appropriate for the Explanatory Notes but not for the Bill.
Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
I thank the noble Lord. My noble friend Lord Hayward said that he did not much like it either, but it is helpful that my amendment has been grouped with the other amendments, which are seeking to give a bit more precision than the two short lines that are in the Bill. As I said in moving my amendment, my contention is that they do not go far enough to define what “sustainability” means in practice, which will be important for the regulator looking at it.
I am grateful to my noble friends, particularly my noble friend Lord Markham, whose Amendment 13 proposes a few tangible benchmarks through which sustainability can be measured. It suggests inserting criteria, including increasing TV viewership, increasing match attendance, improving international sporting competitiveness and increasing the overall income generated. They are all very tangible and specific. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Watson, will prefer them and I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say about them when she responds.
Criteria such as those would provide a far more accurate and reliable understanding of the sustainability of English football. As my noble friend Lord Markham said, we all want to make sure that we are helping to deliver that with this Bill and to give the regulator the clarity that it needs to uphold it. The Premier League’s television exports alone were worth £1.4 billion in 2019-20. If the Government are serious about growth and supporting the success of Great British success stories, the regulator must ensure that that growth trajectory goes only upwards. By basing the standards of sustainability on objective metrics, such as those that my noble friends Lord Markham and Lord Maude have tried to set out, football would surely benefit, and the regulator would have the clearer frames of reference that I think we are looking for.
As my noble friend Lord Hayward said, there is competition from a growing number of countries that are snapping at our heels. As the noble Lord, Lord Addington, reminded us, there is no divine right for football to continue to exist in the way that it does in this country. My noble friend Lord Hayward pointed out some of the sporting fixtures that have happened this weekend. I enjoyed the Qatar Grand Prix, although I thought that the 10-second penalty for Lando Norris was rather disproportionate, especially since no safety car and no virtual safety car were deployed. I mention that not to take us on to another sport but to point out the difficulties that happen when a regulator—in this case, the Fédération Internationale de l’Automobile—makes curious or contentious decisions.
Through the amendments in this group, we are seeking to give a clarity of purpose to the regulator, so that it can focus its important work on delivering the sustainability of English football in a way that matches what the Government have set out in their Explanatory Notes. For all the differences that have been expressed, I think that we are all united on that. But it is important that we give this extra precision and clarity, and I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Baroness Twycross) (Lab)
I thank the noble Lords, Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay, Lord Maude of Horsham and Lord Markham, for tabling their amendments and for the thorough discussion we have had. I look forward to the ongoing discussion on many of the points raised as we debate the Bill.
We do not think that the Bill, which is largely the same as the previous Government’s version, is flawed, as the noble Lord, Lord Jackson of Peterborough, suggested; nor do we think it leaves a lot to be desired, as the noble Lord, Lord Maude, suggested. We also do not think that it is an overreaction of the nature that the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, suggested. Indeed, we think it is what fans are looking for and what will bring sustainability to the game. I will get on to the definition of “sustainability” shortly.
Amendment 7, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay, adds further detail to the definition of the sustainability of English football. I am pleased that he noted the definition on page 2, which does indeed define sustainability in the Bill. All the aims of the amendments are laudable. However, I assure the noble Lords concerned that the detail that has been added, in particular by Amendment 7, is largely implicit in the current definition of the sustainability of English football. So, while the noble Lord might suggest that the definition is, in his words, short and unsubstantial, I would argue that it is sufficient. The wording is that which was adopted in the noble Lord’s Government’s iteration of the Bill.
Baroness Twycross (Lab)
That is a matter that I am sure we will discuss at greater length when we come to a longer discussion on secondary legislation, but I am happy to talk to the noble Lord outside this Chamber at further length.
Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her reply. There were two things that I scribbled down as she said them. The first was that the definition—the extra detail of sustainability—is implicit in the Bill. That really gets to the nub of the debate we have just had. We think leaving it implicit for the regulator causes some problems. If the wording—albeit not to the preference of the noble Lord, Lord Watson of Invergowrie—is something that the Government are happy to set out in the Explanatory Notes, why can we not make it a bit more explicit in the Bill to give the regulator more clarity? That is what the amendments in this group have sought to do, and the Bill would benefit from being made more explicit rather than left in the implicit way that the Minister set out.
The Minister also said that the regulator is being set up to deal with football’s sustainability problem, and that football has no growth problem, at least at present. Our concern is that seeking to address the former problem in the way the regulator goes about its work, particularly if it is left to do it implicitly, risks football’s continuing success in the growth category and in other ways. That is why we have given this such detailed scrutiny. However, I am grateful to her for her response, and I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment 7.
Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
My Lords, in moving the amendment, I shall speak also to my Amendment 9. Amendment 26 tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Addington, also touches on many of the issues that concern me and motivated me in bringing my amendments; I look forward to hearing him set out the case for it later in the debate.
My amendments in this group probe the Government’s definition of a football fan. In any other context, the exact definition would perhaps be academic, but fans have had an important role in the process that has led to this Bill. As the Minister and many others have said, the Bill seeks to put fans’ interests at the heart of this legislation. It was, after all, the fan-led review chaired—refereed, if you like—by my former honourable friend Dame Tracey Crouch which led to the Bill in its former iteration under the previous Government and which continues to inform the work that the new Government have taken forward in the Bill that they have brought before your Lordships. It was the fans’ voices in that process that were so important, and which began the path to where we now find ourselves.
We on these Benches agree with the Government that fans must be consulted and that they will have an important and ongoing role to play not just in the future of English football but in the operation of this new regulatory regime, but we cannot empower fans, or listen to their views, if we cannot say who they are. Through Amendment 8, I put it to the Government that both clubs and the new independent football regulator should seek to serve the interests of both “current and prospective” football fans. This expands the point that we have made about growth and making sure that the Bill is not simply seeking to preserve football in aspic.
In his Reflections on the Revolution in France, published in November 1790, Edmund Burke wrote:
“Society is indeed a contract … it becomes a partnership not only between those who are living, but between those who are living, those who are dead, and those who are to be born”.
That may be a high-falutin’ way of putting it, but it is the principle that underlies my Amendment 8. Football must not be governed as a game merely for the fans of today, nor should it simply seek to preserve the game in a form that fans of the past have enjoyed; it must also continue to be a game for the future. That is surely what the Government mean by the sustainability of football which, as the noble Baroness said in the debate on the previous group, is the key concern of this Bill.
We on these Benches feel that prospective fans—whether they be literally unborn, as Burke would point out, or those who are not yet alive to the joys of the game—should always have their interests served by clubs and the new regulator as well. Only if we are seeking to serve the interests of prospective fans as well as existing ones will we truly secure a sustainable future for English football.
My Amendment 9 similarly seeks to expand the definition of the communities whose interests are served by the Bill. The purpose clause in the Bill seeks to serve only “local communities” with which regulated clubs are associated. I was keen that the Committee should probe the inclusion of that word, “local”. We had the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester with us for earlier deliberations in this Committee. I am taken to understand that not everybody who is a fan of Manchester United or Manchester City lives in the city of Manchester. If a large group of people from London or another part of the country were to follow Manchester United or Manchester City during a period of success for one of those clubs, would it be right for those clubs or the new regulator merely to serve the interests of local communities in Manchester, or should they consider the interests of fans who follow those teams and who have a stake in them no matter where in the country they are based?
Lord Knight of Weymouth (Lab)
One reason why I have been interested in this Bill is the European Super League proposals that previously happened—the possibility of clubs’ owners deciding that they are going to play two or three games in the United States or two or three games in the Middle East. By defining “local”, are we not ensuring that there is some protection against the aspiration that some owners may have to meet the needs of fans who might be numerous in the Middle East or the United States, but we want regulated clubs to be looked after here in Britain?
Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
That is the question I am trying to probe with this amendment. Are the interests of fans of, say, Manchester United or Manchester City really served only if, as the Bill currently defines it, English football is contributing to the economic or social well-being of the “local communities” with which regulated clubs are associated? Surely Manchester United is associated also with Weymouth, for instance, or other parts of the country where people might choose to be a fan of that club, even if they have never lived in Manchester.
As I set out at Second Reading, I am not the world’s biggest football afficionado, but I know that people do not have to be born in a specific town or city to feel an affinity to, pride in or excitement from certain regulated clubs. I am interested in whether the sustainability of those clubs should also serve people in Weymouth and people across the country. The noble Lord makes an important point about the growing tension with growing the international following of football, but, as we have heard in previous debates, that, too, is a good thing. It is an important part of the soft power of the United Kingdom. It brings inward investment and greater glory to the UK. That is a separate point from the amendments, which look at the work of the sustainability—
Lord Moynihan of Chelsea (Con)
I interrupt to comment on the proposal from the noble Lord, Lord Knight. It is quite extraordinary. Are we little Englanders who think that our only role is in this country? There is a vast amount of soft power created by what is probably the UK’s most successful industry, so it is really odd that the noble Lord claimed that there are major problems with it. If there are major problems with our most successful industry, we are in trouble.
Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
I am very grateful to the Deputy Chairman of Committees and to the noble Lord, Lord Lisvane, for trying to bring us back to the point.
This underlines the importance of the debate we need to have in this group. I was tempted to intervene on the noble Lord, Lord Wood of Anfield, but seeing as it was an intervention on me, I do not think that I could have done.
We do not need to focus so much on consulting fans of Liverpool in San Diego. I am interested in the opening clause of the Bill and whether the interests of fans of Liverpool who are based in Weymouth, Whitley Bay or Walthamstow should be taken into account at the moment when we are defining “sustainability”. The Bill currently says:
“For the purposes of this section”—
referring to Clause 1(3)—
“English football is sustainable if it … continues to contribute to the economic or social well-being of the local communities with which regulated clubs are associated”.
Liverpool do great work not just on Merseyside but for fans across the country and we need to have a useful debate about the inclusion and the limiting factor of the word “local” there because there is a domestic point to be made. But, as the intervention from my noble friend Lord Moynihan of Chelsea pointed out, I think we should also avoid looking like little Englanders and being too restricted simply to the domestic benefits here. There is a large group of fans in Thailand, Japan or South Korea, where I was over the summer and where people came up to me and asked which team I supported and wanted to talk about football. I am sure noble Lords across the House have had the same experience when travelling overseas—whether we have places such as Anfield in our titles or otherwise, it is one of the first questions we are asked.
It is a source of pride for this country that a sport we invented and export is something that 1.5 billion people across the globe enjoy watching and can take some of the social and economic benefits of. Through my Amendment 8, I am simply testing whether “local” really ought to be the limiting factor here. I think there are two stages that would be helpful to consider: across England—and, indeed, perhaps the United Kingdom—and across the globe more broadly. I think it would be helpful at this point if I let the debate continue to move by now moving Amendment 8.
Lord Birt (CB)
I am sorry, but I hope it is appropriate for yet another Liverpool fan to intervene in this debate. I think we have to segment the fan base and that is essentially what is happening, so I wonder how much we are really disagreeing with one another. As I said at Second Reading, my grandad was brought up 200 yards from Anfield; my father had to walk to the match; and when I was young, I had to take a train and a bus. We all know about those intense fans that live locally. They are chiefly the fans who go by train to away games and love the game and it is a critical part of their whole life. Any organisation which segments its fan base is going to pay a great deal of attention to that cohort.
But we live in different times from my grandfather and my father. Television changed all of that and created a fan base for a high proportion of clubs, not just those in the Premier League, right across the country. In more recent times, in the satellite age, the fan base is truly global. Any organisation benefits from a dialogue with its customers, and the fan base broadly defined is the customer and it is that fan base that provides the investment into the game. It provides the investment at local, national and global level, chiefly through the agency of television rights. Any sensible organisation—whether it is the regulator, the leagues or the clubs—should engage with the full complexity of that fan base. Like any good business, you talk to your fans, you listen, you learn, you adapt and you grow and that is surely what, in one way or another, I hope most of us could agree with.
When the league made the bad mistake that we all know about of saying there would be a closed shop in Europe, the fan base, broadly speaking, rose up in 24 hours and it was knocked out of the equation. I happen to think it would be a mistake for the Premier League to play “home games” in another country, because it antagonises the fans who have the most intense feeling. But we do have to talk to and be informed about the totality of the fan base, whether local, national or global.
Lord Evans of Rainow (Con)
My Lords, I will make a point on Amendment 17A of the noble Lord, Lord Watson, about the complexity of what we mean by “fan” and indeed “season ticket holder”, because there are so many options to be a season ticket holder. You can be a season ticket holder for Premier League clubs, just for those Premier League games. You also have cup games, like the FA Cup and the Carabao Cup. There are also Champions League tickets. If you cannot get a season ticket, as an individual you can apply for those individual cup games. If you wish to become a forwarding member for £20, you are in the position to receive a ticket from a season ticket holder. It spreads up; the number of season tickets available is very complicated indeed for cup games.
Not only that, but you also have corporate tickets. Corporations can buy a whole suite of tickets for their employees and also for their clients. To establish somebody who would go as a guest of a corporate individual or who had been forwarded a ticket further complicates it. The point I am making is that it is not straightforward. It is very complicated—there is not just one season ticket holder at any club.
Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
My Lords, this has been a lively debate. Even before I moved the lead amendment in it, a lively debate had been engendered. It is an important one, because fans are sown throughout the Bill. There are various points at which the regulator, the Government and others have to consult fans, so it is important that, as we proceed through Committee and look at the Bill line by line, we are clear about and understand who the fans are that the regulator, the clubs and the Government need to consult, where they reside and where they do not, and how their views will be ascertained.
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Watson of Invergowrie, for the clarity with which he put this in speaking to his Amendment 17A in this group. There has to be something in the Bill, and it has to be something tight; otherwise we will continue having this sort of nightmarish debate, as the noble Lord, Lord Addington, foresaw, and which has been borne out a bit this afternoon. Each time fans are mentioned, we have to decide—as the noble Lord, Lord Mann, put it—what is relevant to them in this instance, and whether this is something that affects them. The fan-led review that led to the Bill would mean that fans take a view on all of the matters that the Bill sets out in each of its clauses.
I am not along—and your Lordships in this Committee are not alone—in confronting the inherent difficulties involved in trying to attempt to define a fan. My noble friend Lord Jackson of Peterborough previously mentioned the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee of your Lordships’ House, which has pointed out the importance of trying to put this definition in the Bill. It is so central to what the Bill tries to achieve that its omission is really very striking.
The European Club Association, in its Fan of the Future report, has also pointed out that
“The anatomy of a football fan has evolved significantly”.
Its research highlights the role of social media, the decline in linear television viewing and the diversification of football content distribution, to give just a few examples. Those factors have fundamentally altered the way that people access information about football and watch their favourite team play. Indeed, 70% of respondents to the association’s survey said they consumed some form of football content online. All of that points to a trend of an increasingly international fan base for English football—a point that noble Lords have borne out repeatedly in the debate on this group. We, the clubs and the regulator will have to grapple with that trend, which I am sure is only growing, if we are all to meet the fan engagement requirements set out in the Bill.
There was a lively debate on consultation and the limits thereof, geographical and otherwise. I should probably state for the record that I do not necessarily believe that fan consultation should include fans from South Korea and all over the world or, as the noble Lord, Lord Wood of Anfield, put it, Liverpool fans in San Diego. There are obviously practical and burdensome difficulties here. I also acknowledge the point made by various noble Lords that fans who are more directly affected by their club, either from living in its vicinity or through its work, have an especially special bond.
I was struck by the comments the noble Lord, Lord Birt, made about the gradation that clubs already make between types of fans. However, as we refer to fans again and again throughout this Bill, it is important that we try and specify what constitutes a fan, and not leave it so vague. This issue requires clarity for our future deliberations in this Committee, and I would be grateful if the Minister could provide it when she responds. Before she does, I want to say a few words about Amendment 17, tabled by my noble friend Lord Markham. This amendment attempts to provide that clarity and specificity by seeking to define what constitutes a fan. If the Minister does not like Amendment 17’s definition, then it is important she provides an alternative.
I am also interested in the solution the noble Lord, Lord Addington, has proposed with his Amendment 26. In essence, his amendment requires the regulator to tell us what it counts as a fan when it conducts its duties under the Bill. It is important for fans, for clubs and for everyone that this is clarified. The noble Lord’s nightmares were well spent if during those night-time hours he formulated the ideas that led to Amendment 26, which has been helpful.
I also want to touch on Amendment 17A, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Watson of Invergowrie. This amendment, again in the spirit of helpfulness, tries to define a fan as somebody who holds a season ticket for a regulated club. I do not doubt the noble Lord’s intent here; season ticket holders are some of a club’s most stalwart supporters. However, as the debate on this group has shown, that definition is restrictive, limited and problematic. Thousands of club fans may not be fortunate enough to hold a season ticket: it may be too expensive; they may live at the other end of the country; they may find themselves on a waiting list—as the noble Lord, Lord Mann, noted; and they may find themselves behind corporate interests, as my noble friend Lord Evans of Rainow has set out. All of those things could prevent fans from becoming season ticket holders. It would not be right to say that those people are not fans, or that they are not the sort of fan who needs to be consulted on the future of their club or who would have an interest in it. Therefore, although Amendment 17A’s definition is a helpful attempt, it is not quite the answer.
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mann, for his tentative and cautious interest in my amendment on current and prospective fans. I hope that he agrees that it is important that we have a definition of a fan in the Bill to avoid this sort of confusion as we go through the debates on later clauses. I know that he chairs a fan group for Leeds United. Would every Leeds fan feel that they were represented by the group that he chairs? Would they all agree with what he says? I am not sure that that is necessarily the case. Fans come in different shapes and sizes, and they have many views, but we need some clarity as we go through our debates to understand in each instance where and whom the regulator, the Government and the clubs themselves must consult.
Lord Mann (Lab)
I hope that not all fans agree with my supporters’ group, because we have a very distinct approach from other fan groups. My point is that there is a range of groups and that different fan groups have different perspectives, interests and ideals. Therefore, to attempt to define them in the Bill is so complex as to be impossible. That is why it is sensible to take the approach that the Government are taking: one that has some flexibility built in.
I will not go into great detail on the different kinds of fan groups. I believe that West Ham has nine, and you could argue about how many we have because there is the question of whether some are really fan groups or not. That is the complexity—and they have different perspectives.
Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
I will not prolong the discussion any further; it is important that we hear from the Minister instead. As we do so, I hope that we hear from her on the tension between the need for flexibility, which I understand, and the need for clarity so that the duties on the clubs, which are successful businesses, and on the regulator, which is a powerful new body, are also specified. We need that so that everybody, when they follow the Bill when it becomes an Act of Parliament, is clear on what they have to do, whether they are speaking to the fan group of the noble Lord, Lord Mann, or another about each of those duties.
Baroness Twycross (Lab)
I thank the noble Lords, Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay, Lord Markham and Lord Addington, and my noble friend Lord Watson of Invergowrie for tabling these amendments and for the thorough discussion on this group. There is an amendment in a group specifically on clubs playing overseas, which I will come back to during a later stage in the Bill’s progress. I have been told by my noble friend the Chief Whip that I should not comment on gobstoppers, as tempting as it is to do so.
I am glad that we all agree on the importance of fans to the game. The Bill also recognises that importance. As noble Lords are aware, it is based on the fan-led review, so it should have fans at its heart. I suspect that we will never get full agreement on how we should define a fan or group of fans—we have seen that in the debate on this group. However, I welcome the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Birt, that—to paraphrase—there is quite a lot of agreement on this element, so noble Lords are at risk of debating something that, when it comes down to it, many of them will agree on.
The noble Lord, Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay, tabled an amendment that would look to add further detail to the definition of the sustainability of English football. I reassure him that both prospective and current fans would be considered in the existing requirement. As he will be aware, this is in line with the Bill introduced by the previous Government in which he served. Football would not serve the interests of fans if the game were unattractive or unwelcoming to new fans. As the Explanatory Notes to this clause clarify, continuing to serve the interests of fans
“means meeting the needs of present fans without compromising the ability of future generations of fans to enjoy and benefit from the club”.
Amendment 9, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, looks to remove the specific reference to “local” communities from the definition of the sustainability of English football. One of the best things about football in this country is that it fosters community. I welcome the passionate defence of local fans made by the noble Lord, Lord Goddard of Stockport. This is something that noble Lords from across your Lordships’ House recognised and spoke passionately about at Second Reading, and we wish to protect it.
The local area surrounding clubs can often develop communities and economies dependent on the football club. It is important to recognise that not all communities are grounded in the local area. As noble Lords have mentioned, they can be online, far-reaching and even international. These communities are also important, as was highlighted by the noble Lords, Lord Goodman of Wycombe, Lord Maude of Horsham, Lord Hayward and Lord Moynihan of Chelsea.
The noble Baroness, Lady Brady, mentioned international flights. I understand that such is the Norwegian enthusiasm for football that weekend flights are scheduled to allow fans to travel to watch UK games. However, as communities become less rooted in the local area or directly related to the club itself, it would be harder for the regulator to control or even predict how its actions may influence their economic or social well-being. We do not want the regulator to be set up to fail because it cannot feasibly meet its statutory purpose. If the regulator were required to consider more detached and far-reaching communities, it might never be able to completely deliver a sustainable English football.
We should also remember that it is often the local communities that are most vulnerable and can suffer most directly from any crisis at a club. As my noble friend Lady Taylor of Bolton made clear, the locality matters. We have seen in places such as Bury and Macclesfield the hole that is left in the local community, including the economic impacts, social impacts and job losses. None the less, the regulator must of course consider the impact of its actions on the wider community of fans. That is why the Bill’s purpose, as drafted, includes English football serving the interests of fans, with no requirement that those fans are “local” to their club.
The noble Lord, Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay, appeared to conflate how fans and communities are defined. I want to be very clear that, while Clause 1(3)(b) specifies “local communities”, Clause 1(3)(a) does not specify that it applies only to local fans. So, the noble Lord’s points on Manchester United fans in Weymouth would still be considered in this definition of “sustainability” as it pertains to fans.
On Amendment 17 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Markham, I understand that its intention is to set in the Bill a definition of what makes someone a football fan. His amendment draws on the Explanatory Notes. I welcome the perspective of the noble Lord, Lord Finkelstein, as a member of the committee on the fan-led review. For a definition of a fan to be in primary legislation, there is a significant risk of unintended consequences that it will end up being either so loosely defined that it lacks precision or too narrow that important and passionate fans are excluded from engagement. I know that noble Lords from across the Committee would not wish to exclude any passionate fan from the engagement that the regulator intends clubs to carry out. This is because the make-up of a fan base will differ from club to club. It is this diversity that makes English football so special.
In our view, there is also likely to be the need for clubs to be able to consult different groups of fans on different issues. For example, on ticket prices, we would reasonably expect that clubs may wish to focus on consulting regular, match-going fans. However, on stadium relocations, we might expect them to consult a broader group of fans from across the community. From my engagement with Members from across your Lordships’ House, I know that there are many different views on the definition of a fan. Indeed, there are probably as many definitions as there are Members in this debate, if not many more. Therefore, although I understand the desire for more clarity, I am extremely reluctant for the Government to provide a specific definition that would be limiting.
The Government do not see themselves as the arbitrator of who counts as a football fan; instead, it is something that fans and clubs themselves will be in the best position to understand and discern. The regulator, once established, will be able to provide guidance for clubs on how to best consult fans, rather than be bound by an inflexible and potentially unhelpful definition. This will ensure that clubs have an appropriate framework in place that allows them to meet and consult fans regularly on key strategic matters and supporter interests, utilising pre-existing fan structures and other engagement mechanisms.
As Amendment 17A in the name of my noble friend Lord Watson of Invergowrie demonstrates, there are multiple ways in which others may define a “fan”, all of which would capture vastly different groups. At some clubs and on some issues, the definition as set out in the amendment may be sufficient, but for others there could be large numbers of dedicated fans, including the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, who would not be captured if the club considered only season-ticket holders. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Brady, that this would be too narrow. For example, it would mean that those unable to attend matches as a season-ticket holder due to reasons of finance or health, or due just to their lack of luck in a ballot, would be excluded from the consultation. My noble friend Lord Mann noted the waiting list for season tickets. As a Labour Government who think that financial criteria should not exclude people of limited financial means, we feel strongly that the emotional commitment highlighted by the noble Lord, Lord Addington, should take precedence over any financial ones. This demonstrates the need for nuance and discretion in the definition, which clubs and the regulator are in the best position to arrive at.
On Amendment 26, the noble Lord, Lord Addington, is right that the regulator would have an important role in ensuring that clubs understand and meet the fan engagement requirements placed on them. The Government agree, and they expect that the regulator will need to produce guidance to provide more detail and information on who to engage with, and how, to meet these conditions. However, it is important to understand that, for the most part, individual clubs will be in the best position to understand the demographics of their fans, with significant variation between clubs. There is a risk that the amendment could inadvertently place a limit on fan engagement and limit clubs to meeting only those who are members of an official fan body. Many fans will not be part of a formally constituted body; that does not mean that they should not be represented. For example, if a club is seeking to move ground or make changes to home shirt colours, a wide range of fans should be consulted and not just a formally constituted body. The Government have designed the legislation to allow for a bespoke approach to fan engagement shaped by the regulator’s guidance, an approach that the previous Government also supported.
However, although many clubs will be best placed to discern who they should engage with, if it is felt that a club is misusing this to select only agreeable fans or to exclude another group, the regulator can and should intervene. As is made explicit in paragraph 272 of the Explanatory Notes, the regulator can take action in such instances and will be able to specify how any representative group of fans should be engaged or informed. As I said at the start of my response, I am delighted that there is so much support across your Lordships’ House for fans being at the heart of the Bill and the debate. It is a theme that we will no doubt return to on many occasions, and I look forward to future discussions. However, for the reasons outlined, I am unable to accept the amendments from my noble friend and the noble Lord and ask that they do not press them.
Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her response. In relation to my Amendment 8, I have been in her position of having to explain why, while agreeing with the spirit of an amendment, the Government are not minded to put it in a Bill. However, if she says that the Bill is about current and prospective fans, as my amendment seeks, why not say it in the Bill? I hope that between now and Report she might reflect a bit further on that.
Regarding my Amendment 9, the Minister said that I had conflated the issue with fans. After the slightly confusing debate that we had, it is not unreasonable that she thinks I might have done. Perhaps it was unhelpful to have grouped these amendments together and to have had one debate on them. However, I am clear that Clause 1(3)(b) relates to communities and not to fans. The question that I am asking is whether, as we work towards the sustainability of English football, we should limit our ambitions to the economic and social well-being of local communities that stand to benefit rather than our community more broadly? For the sake of clarity, I wanted to de-conflate those. I am not sure that we have quite cracked this matter but, for now, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Lord Markham (Con)
I join in with the sentiments expressed by many other noble Lords. I made the point at Second Reading that, however well intentioned, noble Lords came up with seven new commitments they wanted the regulator to be involved in. This all starts from the premise that we believe it should be a light-touch regulator and the unintended consequence is that each one, however well intentioned, can add another burden, as so ably explained by my noble friend Lady Brady. I, like others, am fearful of adding something new to the Bill.
I would like to explain a slight difference. In her response to the first group, the Minister talked about mission creep regarding how we were trying to expand the sustainability argument to other objectives of the regulator; for example, to some of the income-generating TV advertising. The key difference here is that we were trying to talk about the action the regulator takes—the measures the regulator might take to force clubs to put down a deposit to cover their sustainability requirements, and whether the regulator should have wider criteria beyond financial sustainability regarding the wider benefits of the game. Those sorts of things are appropriate because they look at what the regulator is responsible for and its objectives. Thing that put new burdens on the clubs come into a different category. They come into the mission-creep category, so to speak, which I, like other noble Lords, are reluctant to add in.
So, although I support the points made by other noble Lords, I would make that distinction. When talking about things the regulator might do that might impact clubs we should make sure that the regulator looks at the wider benefits of the game but we should not look to add extra burdens on clubs, however well intentioned.
Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Bassam of Brighton and Lord Addington, to the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, to all noble Lords who have contributed to the useful discussion on this group of amendments, and to the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Bolton, for her Amendment 15, which the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, spoke to on her behalf.
We recognise the importance of environmental sustainability and the target to reach net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050. It was, in fact, as noble Lords know, the previous Government who introduced and passed the law to ensure that the United Kingdom reduces its greenhouse gas emissions by 100% from 1990 levels by 2050. In recent scrutiny of and debate on other legislation before your Lordships’ House, we on these Benches have discharged the duty not just of the Official Opposition but, importantly, of sparking several debates on environmental sustainability and protection.
My noble friends Lord Gascoigne and Lord Roborough tabled an amendment to the Water (Special Measures) Bill to make provisions for nature recovery and nature-based solutions. We also supported and helped to pass an amendment to the Crown Estate Bill to require the Crown Estate commissioners to assess the environmental and animal welfare impacts of salmon farms on the Crown Estate.
I am very proud of those demonstrations of our commitment on these Benches to the protection of the environment and I am sorry that the Government did not support the sensible provisions brought by my noble friends Lord Gascoigne and Lord Roborough on the water Bill. But I am not persuaded by the amendments in this group because I am not convinced that they are the proper responsibility of the new independent football regulator. I worry that additional requirements—in this case on environmental sustainability—will place a further burden on football clubs.
Amendment 15 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Bolton, supported by the noble Lord, Lord Bassam of Brighton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, requires clubs to operate
“in a way that will achieve net zero … by 2050 … materially reducing negative impact on the natural world”.
Amendment 55, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, adds an environmental sustainability objective to the list of objectives for the independent football regulator under the Bill.
These are important and noble causes, but they will be, as this debate has highlighted, very costly duties that some of the clubs, particularly in the lower leagues of the football pyramid, might not be able to discharge. This speaks to the tension that the noble Lord, Lord Goddard of Stockport, mentioned in our debate on the previous group about making sure that we are thinking about clubs of all sizes and at both ends of the leagues with which the Bill is interested. There is a great difference between their financial and administrative ability to discharge some of the duties the Bill will place upon them. The clubs in the lower leagues of the pyramid are significantly smaller than those at the top and have far fewer available resources.
Even with the Bill’s efforts to help with the financial flows throughout the football pyramid, we should be mindful of the concern about whether these clubs will be able to cope with these further regulations, particularly, as my noble friend Lady Brady pointed out, in light of the additional burden placed on them by the Government’s new taxes on employment through expanding the scope and rate of national insurance contributions. Given the additional costs to football clubs from measures such as that and the other measures we will look at in the Bill, such as the industry levy, the costs of compliance with the financial regulations and so on, I fear that these amendments mean further regulatory burden on clubs at both ends of the spectrum.
It is important to note, as noble Lords have reminded us, that clubs and leagues have already voluntarily adopted and embraced elements of environmental and sustainability governance rules. In February this year the Premier League clubs met and agreed a Premier League environmental sustainability commitment. That means that each club in that league has agreed to:
“Develop a robust environmental sustainability policy”
by the end of the current season,
“designate a senior employee to lead the club’s environmental sustainability activities”,
and
“develop a greenhouse gas … emissions dataset … by the end of the 2025/26 season”.
My noble friend Lady Brady set out some of the other excellent work that has been done on a voluntary basis, but with enthusiasm, by clubs in the Premier League.
Lord Markham (Con)
Like others, I have a dilemma, in that I am mindful that the noble Lords, Lord Addington and Lord Bassam, and the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, are well intentioned and, on the whole, I agree with what they are trying to do. However, like others, I feel that there is the danger of mission creep. This is another area—we will be speaking about others later tonight, and over the next few days there are other areas that we will be adding—where each one on its own might not feel like a lot, but if we add layer upon layer, we move far away from the original intention of being a light-touch regulator and towards one that becomes overbearing.
It has been an education, probably for all of us, to hear, as my noble friend Lady Brady was saying, about the good acts that the Premier League is doing with local communities through local football clubs. There is probably more that can be done to make sure that the awareness of those, as the noble Lord, Lord Goddard, was saying, is enhanced and greatened.
Generally, the idea, as my noble friend Lady Brady was saying, of having a meeting with the noble Lord, Lord Addington, and the Premier League to see how that can be more fostered, encouraged, known about and channelled is probably the right way. Where things are working, I much prefer the use of the carrot than the stick.
Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)
My Lords, this has indeed been a good and very valuable debate. The issues which amendments in this group address are in a slightly different category to some of the additional duties and areas into which amendments in other groups have sought to take the work of the regulator and the scope of the Bill because, as the noble Lord, Lord Addington, said in opening, nothing has the reach of football.
These amendments speak to sustaining the future of the game and making sure that clubs can continue to do the work in their communities which noble Lords have spoken about passionately from Second Reading onwards. Particularly, the noble Lord’s Amendment 247 is about making sure that they are facilitating
“training for young women and girls”
and that the valuable work done in recent years is extended there. Like others, I was struck by the powerful contribution from my noble friend Lady Brady, who said that these are responsibilities which are authentic and deeply felt by clubs. She gave examples, drawing particularly on her experience in the Premier League. I agree with the points that my noble friend Lord Hayward and others have made: perhaps that work ought to be better known and the clubs should blow their trumpets more loudly, not just those in the Premier League but clubs at every level that are doing important work.
It might be helpful to flag to the Committee that the Premier League and the EFL already have rules in place regarding corporate responsibility. Section K of the Premier League’s handbook has a whole host of rules including, to name a few, a safety certificate and medical facilities, ground rules and regulations. Those are but some of the requirements already placed upon clubs. The noble Lord, Lord Addington, rightly highlighted the work done by the EFL through the awards that it presents to clubs that are doing valuable work in this area.
Amendment 151 from the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Bolton, the noble Lord, Lord Bassam of Brighton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, seeks to impose additional reporting obligations on the executives of football clubs. While transparency in this important area is an admirable goal, it is important to bear in mind proportionality and, again, to echo the concerns that have been raised about adding to the duties of clubs and their executives in other areas, clubs, especially those lower in the league structures, already face significant financial and administrative pressures. Requiring more and more reports on a growing list of matters could strain their limited resources and have an opposite effect to that by which noble Lords are motivated when they bring their amendments. We have to bear in mind that a one-size-fits-all approach to corporate governance would fail to recognise the diversity which we should be mindful of in the financial ecosystem of football.
Amendment 165 from the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor, aims to compel clubs to adhere to certain corporate codes beyond those which the Bill would currently mandate. As we keep reminding ourselves, football clubs are not merely businesses; they are community institutions with unique identities and relationships with their supporters. While it is a useful idea, we also have to be careful of imposing rigid corporate structures designed for companies in other sectors, which could risk alienating clubs from their communities. We have to find ways to ensure the sort of good governance that the noble Baroness seeks without overburdening clubs with corporate obligations that could conflict with the broader role that they play—and always have played, as the noble Lord, Lord Addington, my noble friend Lady Brady and others have reminded us this evening. Like others, I favour encouraging that work to continue voluntarily, but it would be valuable for a spotlight to be shone more brightly on the work being done, not just at the top end of football but all the way through.
The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, thanked the Minister for answering the very good question that she raised at Second Reading about what would happen in the event of conflicts between the Privy Council and Senedd Cymru. I had a quick look again at the Minister’s helpful letter of 27 November and I do not think it was covered in that. My apologies if I have missed the answer that the Minister gave the noble Baroness but, if it was not in that letter, could it be shared with other noble Lords? It was a very technical question but an interesting one, at least to me, so it would be useful if the Minister is able to share that with the rest of us. But with that, I look forward to her response.