Government's Management of the Economy

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd February 2021 Commons Chamber

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC) [V]]

I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Opposition for arranging today’s debate, but it is clear that, while we agree that the Conservative track record is poor from the Welsh perspective, the Labour party is also culpable of economic mismanagement. In fact, Wales’s situation demonstrates that the issue lies not necessarily with which party is in power in Westminster, but with the structural failures and systemic inequalities that define this disunited and unequal Union.

The UK is the most geographically unequal of the OECD nations, and while Unionists bemoan the financial challenges of independence, for the Celtic nations, they should remember that only three out of the UK’s 12 economic regions are net contributors to the UK budget, and needless to say we all know where those three regions of England are.

The Conservatives certainly bear a weight of responsibility; their chronic austerity programme hampered our economy and public finances, meaning that in Wales our budget only recovered to pre-austerity levels this year, although the day-to-day budget per person remains below pre-austerity levels. Meanwhile, while Plaid Cymru cautiously welcomes the Conservatives’ levelling-up rhetoric, we have learned that, in reality, it means little more than the UK Government throwing taxpayers’ money sporadically at new Conservative constituencies, rather than a coherent vision reflecting local labour and industrial market dynamics—a coherent vision we so desperately need.

Yet Labour, in power in Wales for over 20 years, cannot pretend in Westminster that it is really any different or any better, especially given its lacklustre record in Wales. We must not forget that Labour voted with the Conservative Westminster Government to impose austerity, that Labour worked with the Conservatives to rejects Plaid Cymru’s calls for a full Barnett consequential from HS2, meaning that Wales is losing out on £5 billion of funding from a railway that runs through England, and that Labour supported a shoddy Tory Brexit deal, which has suffocated trade for sectors including the shellfish industry in the community where I live, undermined our ports and imposed burdens on businesses.

Next week, Plaid Cymru wants to work constructively with the UK Government to deliver a real levelling-up agenda and a green recovery that deals effectively with the productivity crisis. That is why I urge the Chancellor not to depress demand and hamper our economic recovery with premature tax rises. Instead, I hope that next week will bring measures incentivising business investment, extensions of support to businesses and workers and support to address long-term unemployment. For our recovery to be truly sustainable, and given Westminster’s poor record of delivery, only more powers for Wales, including the removal of the borrowing cap on the Welsh Government, will allow Wales to realise our economic potential, overcome the UK’s divisions and deliver a flourishing economic recovery.

Economic Update

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Monday 11th January 2021 Commons Chamber

[Rishi Sunak]

It is just not right to say that people have not been able to receive any support. Obviously, I cannot comment on the individual circumstances of every single person, but we have put in place £280 billion of direct support in a multitude of different ways, and then there is additional support that is not even fiscal—for example, mortgage holidays, which now one in six, or one in seven mortgage holders have taken advantage of. So yes, it may be the case that people have not been helped in the exact way they wanted, but with £280 billion of support in literally 20 different ways, this Government are doing what they can to provide reassurance and security to millions of people and businesses through this difficult crisis.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC) [V]]

The Welsh hospitality sector employs over 8.5% of the Welsh workforce and is even more important in rural areas, such as Dwyfor Meirionnydd, where hospitality provides 27.3% of employment. Today’s statement provided no new money and no clarity for struggling hospitality businesses that need to be able to make informed decisions in the coming months. Will the Chancellor therefore confirm that there will be no further announcements of extra funding prior to the March Budget?

[Rishi Sunak]

The Welsh Government have received over £5 billion of up-front funding guarantees to support their local economy. I hope they will use it to do exactly that, but also, Welsh businesses will benefit from UK-wide interventions—for example, our furlough scheme, our loan programme or, indeed, some of the VAT reductions—and I have said that all our support now extends through to the spring. We will have a Budget on 3 March, where we will set out the next stage of that economic response to coronavirus.

Small Breweries Relief

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Monday 9th November 2020 Commons Chamber

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Ddirprwy Lefarydd.

I, like the vast majority of Members of this House, am proud to speak up for the excellent independent breweries of my constituency. These include inspiring beers from Cwrw Llŷn of Nefyn, Cader Ales in Dolgellau, and Porthmadog’s Mŵs Piws—which I imagine does not need translating as Purple Moose—as well as Myrddins Brewery and Distillery of Barmouth. Other bragdai bach of the county of Gwynedd include Bragdy Lleu in Penygroes, Snowdonia Brewery of Waunfawr, and Cwrw Ogwen in Bethesda.

This debate is not intended to be a language lesson, but I think Members will know the meaning of the words “cwrw” and “bragdy” when we have finished. The word “bragdy” is very similar to “brewery” because it is the same thing. “Cwrw” is an old Celtic word—Welsh word—meaning beer, but Members may recognise it from other places with words such as “cerveza”. There is a real pedigree to these words. I will not indulge myself any further, because given half a chance I will.

All in all, Wales is home to about 90 independent breweries. However, these small breweries have to hold their own against the global beer companies that dominate the pub handpulls, the bar taps and the supermarket shelves. The small breweries relief scheme was launched in 2002 to allow them to compete and to compensate for lack of market access. It gave independent breweries a fighting chance to get their beers out to a public thirsty to taste something new and different.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I am very pleased to see how many people have arrived in the Chamber, so there is a common denominator that brings us together. I congratulate the right hon. Lady on bringing this debate forward; she does so well in doing so. With one in eight staff in the pubs and breweries industry already having been made redundant so far, does she agree that any relief scheme must include an extension of business rates holidays, with consequentials for the Northern Ireland Assembly and the other devolved Administrations to do the same, as with other areas? This must be extended to suppliers and to their business premises. These companies can continue to produce but have no market to sell to. There really needs to be something done, and we look to the Minister to give us the response that we are after.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

It is of course an honour to be intervened upon by the hon. Gentleman. I really appreciate his intervention, and I will touch on that matter further. In the time in which we find ourselves, our breweries have been affected as much as the pubs that have been closed, and the pubs have received considerably more support than the breweries in the difficult recent months.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (Ind)]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for securing this debate and bringing this issue before the House. She mentioned the tax relief that helped small brewers to compete against the large companies. Does she suspect that these large companies have been bending the ears of the Treasury?

--- Later in debate ---

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I am sure that the small handful of global beer companies have a very effective lobbying system. It is of course our job to lobby here as well on behalf of our constituencies and small breweries.

[Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con)]

I commend the right hon. Lady for calling this debate today. I am just reflecting on what she is about to talk about, which is the uncertain business environment that our small breweries face and the fact that the consultation that led to the Government recommending this change in rate relief was carried out at a very different time. Does she agree that perhaps this is time to pause so that breweries such as Andwell Brewery in my constituency can get the certainty that they need as we move forward?

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I entirely agree with the right hon. Member. At this time now, even if the changes were to be introduced in January 2022, we are, none the less, presenting the breweries with uncertainty that they desperately do not need. The timing of this is really significant and now is not the time to be mentioning these changes, let alone to be moving ahead with them.

I wish to move ahead, although I truly welcome all the contributions from the many Members here, because I am sure that we are all doing the best for the brewers in our constituencies.

[Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP)]

Before the right hon. Lady moves on, I wanted to mention Niall Kennedy of the excellent Wee Beer Shop in Pollokshaws Road in my constituency. As a small independent business, it sells lots of the beers that come from these breweries. Does she agree that the Government should look at this more widely, because those small shops have also struggled through coronavirus, and they rely on the beers that come from these companies, too.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

The fortune of these shops—I have a similar one, Stori, in Bala in my constituency—is dependent on the success and the flourishing of the small breweries.

I will, if I am allowed, go back in time to 2002. My understanding is that the Government of the time decided to introduce reduced rates of duty for three reasons, and I think we should pay attention to these. The first was the poor profitability of small breweries relative to that of larger breweries, which enjoyed better economies of scale of production.

[Jane Hunt (Loughborough) (Con)]

Charnwood Brewery in Loughborough is successful as a local brewery, with a local supply chain and a local distribution area. These small independent breweries serve their customers well. They do not want to merge and they do not want to grow. They are happy as they are. Does the right hon. Lady agree that small breweries relief enables businesses to remain viable and to remain small?

[Liz Saville Roberts]

It does indeed. One thing that characterises our small independent brewers is their stake in their local community and that is something that is precious to all of us.

Let me move ahead. The second of the three points from 2002 that the small breweries relief was to address was the difficulties faced by small breweries in bringing their goods to market and in competing with larger breweries, which would offer bigger discounts to wholesalers, and I believe that that very much still holds true. The third point is the importance of maintaining diversity within the beer industry and preserving choice for the consumer. We should respect these underpinning principles today as well. Despite the boom in craft brewing over the past decade—

[Darren Henry (Broxtowe) (Con)]

May I congratulate the right hon. Lady on securing this important debate? After hearing from many of my constituents in Broxtowe in this trade, not least Ginny and Rob Witt who own the microbrewery Totally Brewed, I, too, am concerned that small breweries are falling through the cracks with little support, despite their vital role in the hospitality business. Does she share my concern that we need to support and offer clear guidance to be laid out for small breweries and hospitality supply chain businesses?

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman. Of course we can all agree that there is support for the hospitality industry, but the small breweries industry is an integral part of that. If we see that collapsing, it somehow begs the question that there is a discrepancy there.

Let me move ahead now. Despite the boom in craft brewing over the past decade, it remains the fact that nearly 90% of beer consumed in this country is still produced by a handful of global companies, and, despite their numbers, small breweries still only represent about 7% of all the beer sold in the United Kingdom.

The small breweries relief scheme allows independent brewers to pay a proportionate amount of duty to the Treasury, just like income tax. Its success is self-evident with at least one brewery in every constituency. The numbers who are here tonight pay credit to that.

[Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Con)]

I would like to add my name to the long list of others who have thanked the right hon. Lady for securing this very important debate. I am proud to represent Titanic Brewery in the constituency of Stoke-on-Trent North, Kidsgrove and Talke, which benefited in 2002 from the small breweries rate relief. Those from the brewery said to me in advance of this debate that they are really shocked. Even though now, with the amount they are able to brew, they would not benefit from the scheme, they find it “perverse”—that is the word they have used—that we would see such market interference and reduced competition in the marketplace. Does she therefore agree with me that this, as she has already stated, is completely the wrong thing to do at the present time?

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I agree with him entirely, and the hon. Gentleman is reading my mind, because that is exactly the subject I would like to move on to now. As I have said, many of us have at least one brewery—many of us, far more than that—in our constituency.

[Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con)]

The right hon. Member is most generous in giving way, and I thank her so much for bringing such an important debate here this evening. I recently visited the fantastic small brewery of Moon Gazer ales in a small village called Hindringham in my North Norfolk constituency. The right hon. Lady is coming on to the small breweries relief in a minute, but this brewery is now eight years old. It was set up by a husband and wife team—David and Rachel Holliday—and it is just one of 150 that would be disproportionately affected by the Government’s cutting of the small breweries relief. That impact alone would cost them a potential extra £100,000, with no ability to expand because of the rural market they are in. Does she agree with me that the Government must be sensible and look carefully at the 150 brewers that will be significantly caught by these changes?

[Liz Saville Roberts]

While we have a success story that we can all celebrate, we have to recognise how vulnerable it is at present. Again, in the interventions during this debate, we are hearing about the life’s work and the dream for many people in a constituency. They have this wonderful business, which is fully functional, and now it is faced with a threat. We will be hearing, I am sure, about the 150 small breweries that specifically fall into the remit of the change for the small breweries relief, but there is actually a wider concern about another aspect of the announcement that the Government made back in July, which I will touch on later, and that is the change from a percentage to a cash basis.

[Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con)]

This debate is fantastic, and we all have a story to tell of great breweries in our constituencies, many of which are fairly new because of this relief, without which they would never have happened. I think we would all salute the great work of CAMRA—the Campaign for Real Ale—and other organisations that have promoted this huge variety of very local, very flavoursome, fantastic ales that we would not otherwise have had. I remember—people have to be of a certain age to remember—the real scare stories of the whole market being dominated by the big boys. We should be encouraging these craft local companies that are wedded to our communities, and I am thinking particularly of the Ramsgate Brewery in my constituency, headed up by a fantastic head brewer, Eddie Gadd.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

We now have a vast choice, with a fantastic variety of beer on offer. We have the greatest number of breweries in the United Kingdom since the 1930s, and I think that is something to celebrate. The SBR has broken the monopoly of production, if not yet that of consumption. It has unleashed a pioneering spirit of independent brewery enterprise, which is something to which we can all raise our glasses, even the Tory party.

[Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

I am very grateful to the right hon. Member for bringing forward this very important debate. I have met Bad Seed Brewery and Brass Castle Brewery from Malton to discuss these essential changes. Does she agree that we should always look for incentives for small and medium-sized enterprises to establish in whatever sector, but not least in the brewing sector? We should also try to avoid any disincentive for businesses to grow, as can sometimes happen with artificial thresholds. I know this is part of the consultation, and perhaps it is something we should consider in more detail.

--- Later in debate ---

[Liz Saville Roberts]

Whatever the incentive, it is evident since 2002 there has been an incentive to increase the number of breweries, and we need to be alert to what could be disincentives, and to uncertainty and how that can operate as a disincentive.

[Elliot Colburn (Carshalton and Wallington) (Con)]

The right hon. Lady is being incredibly generous in giving way, and I would like to add my thanks to her for calling this debate this evening. I have met small breweries such as Anspach & Hobday and Signal Brewery in my constituency of Carshalton and Wallington. Both breweries have expressed many similar concerns to those mentioned by the right hon. Lady. On the subject of incentives, does she agree that now is the wrong time to be disincentivising business growth in the sector, especially in the context of the pandemic—now is not the time to be doing that?

[Liz Saville Roberts]

The hon. Gentleman has exactly summarised where I want to go. Progress is under threat, and now is not the time for this. The Government have recently made these proposals, and, forgive me, but it seems to me that the Treasury is intent on cutting the support to small breweries, which produce only a fraction of what the global breweries put out, and making sure that they will therefore have to pay more duty to the Chancellor.

In July, the Minister announced that the 50% threshold for the small breweries relief scheme would be reduced from 5,000 hectolitres to 2,100 hectolitres. For those not fluent in brewers’ terms, this means more than halving the support for small breweries from about 900,000 pints to about 370,000 pints. At least 150 small breweries will see a considerable tax rise as a direct result. To make matters worse, Ministers have failed to supply details; all small breweries have to go on is a couple of lines in written statement from the Financial Secretary to the Treasury published on 21 July. The Minister has provided no detail of the changes, no detailed response to the consultation, no impact assessment and no comfort to the small breweries, which have been given no idea by this Government how much extra they will have to pay.

My Plaid Cymru colleagues and I have written several times to the Chancellor about this regressive policy, but have yet to receive a detailed evidence-based answer. Perhaps the Minister can confirm today when we will get the technical consultation mentioned in the written statement in July, which was due in the autumn. I think it is safe to say that the hops and barley are long since safely gathered in, but the consultation is nowhere to be seen.

These are small businesses employing, say, half a dozen people, operating in an extremely competitive industry characterised by tight profit margins. They are battling the impact of covid-19, having seen sales sink by 80% during lockdown. They did not receive access to the hospitality grants, nor have they benefited from business rates holidays, as we heard. They are facing difficult decisions on whether to bring staff back from furlough, whether to invest in their businesses, or even whether to continue. Many of us have heard sad stories of breweries that are no longer in business. The Government’s decision not to include small breweries in grants and the business rates holiday means that already two small breweries a week are closing for good. If the changes to small breweries relief go ahead, many others are likely to follow.

The Minister also claims that the changes will not affect the vast majority of small breweries, but the move to a cash basis also announced in July’s written statement will mean that the support offered to all small businesses is under threat and looks set to be eroded over time. Instead of being assessed as a percentage, the Chancellor will get to decide the cash rate at each Budget, and there is no guarantee that the rate will improve, or even keep up with inflation. Currently, the top rate of beer duty is £19.08 per hectolitre; the small breweries relief is at 50% and therefore stands at £9.54 per hectolitre. The proposed change creates immense uncertainty. If the purpose of July’s announcement was to support growth and boost productivity, breweries must surely be able to plan over the long term. That is not what is proposed in the written statement.

There is an alternative to the Treasury’s proposals which will guarantee a future for our small breweries. The Society of Independent Brewers, which represents 80% of professional brewers, has proposed changes that maintain the 50% rate at 5,000 hectolitres and allow the scheme to be reformed to address the cliff edge, which was a cause of concern, and barriers to growth in the current scheme without any brewer being worse off. I urge the Minister to study those proposals carefully as a way forward, so that we do not lose our small brewers, which, let us remember, are responsible for 6,000 jobs across all the nations of the United Kingdom, and which contribute £270 million a year to gross domestic product, and who knows what to gross national happiness?

The Minister now has the chance to bolster our small breweries, to guarantee their future and to ensure that they can continue to serve their communities, create jobs and support the economy. I urge her to alter course and not to make changes to relief for any brewers below 5,000 hectolitres and not to introduce the cash basis, and by doing so to give hope to all our small breweries, in my constituency and beyond. In her reply to the debate, will she respond to the following questions? When will the technical consultation be published? How will she take the impact of covid-19 on the industry into account when considering changes? Given the number of people who have contributed to this debate, will she please consider meeting a deputation of MPs to discuss the issue in greater detail?

We are coming—forgive me—to closing time. Those of us who have partaken of Largo, Cwrw Llŷn’s legendary pilsner, named after a fisherman who lost his heart to a mermaid, know this to be a time when, pwyll biau hi, sense and restraint must prevail. Otherwise, later we may sorely regret the error of our ways when, like Largo and his mermaid, we realise what we have cast away.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Kemi Badenoch)]

I congratulate the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts) on securing the debate, and thank right hon. and hon. Members for their contributions to it.

In recent years, the UK has been home to something of a craft beer renaissance. Time-honoured brewing methods that were slowly starting to disappear have gained a new lease of life. Customers have benefited from an exciting and far wider choice of beers and ales, while the number of small brewers has increased tenfold over the past three decades. The craft brewing trend is an international phenomenon that predates small brewers relief, but the relief has undoubtedly helped to encourage new breweries to enter the market and compete against larger and more established businesses.

The layperson may therefore wonder: if the relief is seemingly so effective, why are the Government reviewing it? The answer is simple: because the industry asked us to. As hon. Members may be aware, small breweries relief is not uniformly popular in the brewing sector. In fact, the beer writer Martyn Cornell once suggested that a surefire way to start a fight was to mention the subject at a brewers convention.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

It was to be anticipated that the Minister would mention the industry’s requests, but what the industry requested was that the cliff edge be addressed. When addressing the cliff edge, there is no reason to reduce the 50% rate below 5,000 hectolitres. That does not affect the cliff edge; it just moves it.

[Kemi Badenoch]

I disagree. It does affect the cliff edge: a taper smooths it out and stops the point at which growth is actively discouraged.

Two main charges are levied at small brewers relief by its critics: that it unfairly distorts competition and that it fails to match the true nature of industry production costs. It is argued that that penalises the best producers, inhibits growth and disrupts normal business activity. I should point out that those criticisms were made not by the multinationals that dominate the global market, but by local and mid-sized regional brewers. As hon. Members might imagine, no two brewers will agree on absolutely everything, but a lack of consensus should not be a barrier to action where it is required.

The Treasury therefore announced in 2018 that it would review the relief to consider the views of the whole market on the topic. Since then, we have considered a range of evidence, from direct submissions from individual breweries to independent academic research. We will publish more information about the evidence that we have received as part of our upcoming consultation on small brewers relief later this year.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kemi Badenoch]

I will no longer give way to the hon. Gentleman. I have answered the question of who this should benefit.

On why we are converting to a cash basis, brewers provided feedback that the relief was not tracking their true production costs and was increasing in value in real terms. We also know that the amount spent on the scheme has increased significantly. The right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd spoke about 2002. It was £15 million then; it was £65 million in 2019, even while brewing volumes have declined. A cash basis conversion allows us to review annually the value of the relief, meaning that we can track it in line with changes to industry costs.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I ask the Minister to consider the point that the cash basis is at the heart of the uncertainty that breweries are telling us about. They do not know whether it is worth investing in the here and now. I know that Cwrw Llŷn, for example, is prepared to invest, but the shift from a percentage basis to a cash basis means that breweries have no certainty from year to year what sort of duty they will be paying.

[Kemi Badenoch]

I take the point the right hon. Lady makes, but the Treasury is not doing this to squeeze small brewers. We are not making any money from it either. The reason we are doing it is that industry has asked us to do it, and not the multinationals or large brewers. There is a dispute that we are settling, and we believe that the cash basis will improve things.

The right hon. Lady is right to mention uncertainty. I think the answer is for us to move at pace to give business certainty, not to postpone the uncertainty about what we will do on this relief even further into the future.

A point was made about mergers. As hon. Members are aware, when two brewers merge, their entitlement to small breweries relief changes. Many brewers complain that this distorts business activity, as mergers become unviable. My predecessor in this role, my hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Andrew Jones), has given examples of businesses that have not been able to grow. We need to look at the industry in the round, not just at those who fit a particular demographic.

I reiterate that we listened to many small breweries. We listened to a wide range of breweries and reviewed copious evidence related to SBR. I cannot tell Members how many pages and pages we went through in the consultation that just happened, and there is even more consultation coming. We met the Society of Independent Brewers, the Small Brewers Duty Reform Coalition and the British Beer and Pub Association about this issue, and officials and I continue to meet all those stakeholders. The Treasury ran a survey in 2019 that received 335 responses, as I mentioned. I am afraid that the industry is simply divided on this issue. The idea that all small brewers have the same perception of the relief is misplaced.

My hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Darren Henry) spoke about small brewers falling through the cracks, as did my right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller) and others. We do recognise that. Small brewers are able to benefit from our unprecedented coronavirus response, which includes the job retention scheme, VAT deferral and bounce back loans, as hon. Members will have heard many times before. We have also acted to allow brewers whose beer was spoiled due to pub closures to reclaim excise duty more easily. However, brewers have been able to sell alcohol throughout this period, and thanks to schemes such as CAMRA’s Pulling Together campaign, more than 800 breweries have moved to offer online sales for collection or delivery for the first time. The Treasury is keeping the support it offers to businesses under review as the pandemic progresses.

--- Later in debate ---

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I think the Minister will agree that the feeling among Members of Parliament is very strong and is cross-party. We would all greatly appreciate the opportunity to discuss this matter in a different register to that which can be used in the Chamber. Will she consent to that?

[Kemi Badenoch]

I am very happy to offer a meeting to a number of Members across the House. This should not be a contentious issue. We may have been written to by certain constituents, but we represent many more people than those who have complained about this issue. If we do offer a meeting, I hope Members will talk to all the breweries, not just the ones who have complained, to get a holistic view of what is going on in their constituencies.

The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) talked about pub business rates. We have offered lots of business rate relief. We know that breweries have not been included, but that is partly because they have been able to open. It is an issue that we continue to review.

What are the next steps? The Treasury is moving forward with a further consultation this autumn to examine the more detailed aspects of reform. I invite all hon. Members to encourage any breweries in their constituencies to engage with the process. This is necessary because taper reform is very complicated. It seems like there are as many suggestions for new tapers as there are brewers in the country. That is what we need to focus on. It would not be prudent for the Government to simply pluck one of these solutions out of the air without giving brewers an opportunity to comment on its implications. I should stress that the Treasury has not made any final decisions about the overall shape of reform.

Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Thursday 17th September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

As we are all only too aware, neither the health crisis nor the economic crisis is over, and we are going into the winter. In both respects, the furlough scheme has a role to play to protect workers until our economic recovery is truly under way. I would like to thank the public servants who have administered the job retention schemes. In many cases, we have had much contact with them, and they have done an excellent job. Of course, as we have already heard, Germany and France have recognised this and taken the considered decision to extend their equivalent furlough schemes.

Let us consider the unequal fiscal settlement between Westminster and the devolved nations. While the main levers of our response, such as health, are devolved in Wales, Westminster doggedly refuses to cede further economic powers to the Welsh Government to underpin these health interventions. Even as the UK Government borrow their way out of the immediate crisis, Westminster continues to enforce an artificial cap on the Welsh Government’s borrowing ability. It is one rule for Westminster and another for the devolved nations.

Of course, this has an effect. Welsh Government-mandated local lockdowns without furlough support could mean families being forced to choose between putting food on the table and statutory sick pay of less than £100 a week. This is an unfair and an unworkable choice, and it highlights the real consequences of Westminster ending furlough too early for Wales. During the good times, refusing to allow Wales the financial means to help ourselves might be interpreted as dog in the manger behaviour, but in these hard times, it is wilfully obstructionist.

Our response is interconnected, but the UK Government intervene in unforeseen and possibly unforeseeable ways. For example, outdoor centres such as the Urdd in Glan-llyn near Bala in my constituency—but across north Wales and, I am sure, across England as well—are struggling as the Department for Education in England continues to forbid such school-based activities, yet the UK Government, rightly in my opinion, insist that schools should reopen and office workers go back to their offices. The workers at these outdoor centres are caught as the collateral between different policies, and where do they stand? They look to lose their livelihoods.

We believe that furlough must continue, specifically for severely affected sectors such as tourism, leisure, hospitality and the arts, which have lost a key proportion of their earnings season and are now heading into a bleak winter. Some of them tell me they have lost two thirds of their earnings season. The important message, if I could leave this with the House, is that these are not zombie businesses. Their business model was viable and they were flourishing before covid, and they only need to be conveyed safely through the winter season to have a viable and flourishing future. Anything else would be an abdication of responsibility by this Government and would risk undoing the collective sacrifice of the past several months across all four nations of the United Kingdom.

Covid-19: Future UK-EU Relationship

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Wednesday 15th July 2020 Commons Chamber

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford) for securing this debate, and it is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Dewsbury (Mark Eastwood). I noted his use of the term “take back control”, which I might use as well, but possibly running in a different direction. I would also like to inform the House that our Senedd in Wales is today holding the first ever debate on annibyniaeth—independence. In the light of the fact that we are also holding this debate here, and of the tenor in which it is being conducted, it is fair to say that the scaffolding of the UK is being strained to breaking by the unprecedented circumstances in which we find ourselves.

One of the dominant themes of our public debate since the 2016 EU referendum has been that power should lie closer to the people. The campaign was largely won on the emotional appeal of autonomy and control. “Vote leave and take back control” was the mantra that was repeated ad nauseam in debates inside this House and elsewhere. There was, and there remains, a clear emotional appeal to that message, and while I regretted Wales’s decision to vote to leave, back in 2016, I recognise that that vote reflected a genuine and justified dissatisfaction with our distance from where decisions are taken in our politics. Therefore, 2016 should have been a turning point and the beginning of a new process of truly bringing power closer to the people. We should have seen more devolution, not only to our national Parliaments but to local authority level. That vote should have started a process of bringing disengaged voters back into the democratic process, and of giving people real control over the decisions affecting their real lives.

The UK Government themselves acknowledged the need for that. The Brexit White Paper released in March 2017 proclaimed:

“As the powers to make these rules are repatriated to the UK from the EU, we have an opportunity to determine the level best placed to make new laws and policies on these issues, ensuring power sits closer to the people of the UK than ever before.”

Instead, what we have had is a centralisation of power—centralisation to these corridors here in Whitehall, standing in the way of powers that should have been in transit from Europe to our national Parliaments rather than empowering Whitehall further. If this were a true Union of equals, these former EU powers would have gone equally, naturally, to all our Parliaments. The process started with the EU withdrawal Act, which ensures that the only Parliament that will take back control is the one most removed from the lives of the ordinary people who many of us in the Opposition represent.

The UK internal market Bill threatens our powers further, by allowing Westminster to dictate trade, environmental, food and animal welfare standards and provisions and by giving Westminster control over state aid—a clear breach of devolution in spirit and actuality.

Westminster once again undermines our nations when it comes to an extension of the transition. The Welsh Government, as well as the Scottish Government, last month called for the transition period to be extended. They were ignored.

[Jacob Young]

The right hon. Lady mentioned the Welsh Government. Labour is in power in Wales, of course, yet Labour have not bothered to turn up to this debate. I congratulate the right hon. Lady and my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Fay Jones) on representing Wales on both sides of the House when Labour do not care.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

In these extraordinary circumstances, I will agree with the hon. Gentleman. I am deeply disappointed that where Labour are in power and when they have made a clear statement to an effect that is relevant to the title of this debate, they do not have people here to push that argument.

I turn back to the UK internal market Bill and beyond. The Westminster Government, in this matter and others, not only disregarded the approaches from the Scottish and Welsh Governments, but did not consult them when they gave official notice to extend the transition.

Now, of course, the coronavirus has affected every nation badly, Wales among them. A recent Office for National Statistics survey found that 46% of Welsh businesses have six months or less of cash reserves—the highest percentage among the UK nations. In just five months’ time, businesses that export to the EU will be subject to customs declarations regardless of whether or not a deal is struck, adding increased costs and immense red tape to businesses that are already struggling.

In 2018, HMRC estimated that each customs declaration form would cost an average of £32.50 to complete. The Government expect that about 400 million additional customs declarations a year will have to be made from next year. The 46% of Welsh businesses that do not have the cash reserves to see them beyond this year will simply be unable to afford the added costs, and we fear that Welsh exports will be deeply affected, even to the point of collapse.

Thousands of job losses have already been announced in Wales: in aerospace, manufacturing, media, and—most recently, today, with the announcement that 80 full-time jobs and 70 casual workers’ jobs are at risk—at the Urdd. The Urdd is a 90-year-old organisation that runs the largest youth festival in Europe. It is critical to Welsh cultural survival, and we have heard today that there is that threat to 150 jobs out of 320. That is deeply concerning.

[Fay Jones (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con)]

The right hon. Lady mentioned the Urdd Eisteddfod, an important celebration of our Welsh language and culture. Another such example is the Royal Welsh Show, which has not yet received any support from the Welsh Government, despite the additional funding that the UK Government made available. Does she agree that it also deserves support?

[Liz Saville Roberts]

These cultural events are critical for us in Wales, but this year’s National Eisteddfod has been of course cancelled. Referring back, the Urdd is also one of the organisations that encourages our young people not just to learn Welsh at school, but to use it with each other and to have fun through the medium of Welsh. That support for the language is critical.

For a Government to be actively walking towards further disruption in January is reckless in the extreme, and I fear that it is all part of a plan. The disaster capitalists—those who profit from disaster—are now in charge, and they are gambling that the combined shocks caused by covid-19 and a destructive Brexit will allow them to reassemble the broken pieces into a radically different economic system. I urge the other Welsh Member here—I had to think ex tempore there—to consider the impact that a crash in January, on top of the covid-19 recession, will have on our constituencies and to consider the effect of the collapse in confidence on our fragile rural and tourism-dependent economies. We need that confidence, yet we see no confidence coming our way.

Plaid Cymru tabled a motion that gained the support of many Members on 13 March—right at the beginning of the pandemic—calling for an extension to the transition. The pandemic has changed everything, and we must now put all our energy into the recovery. The UK Government may have missed the deadline within the withdrawal agreement for a simple extension to the transition period, but that does not mean that we are bound to a January crash. There are other options, as other Members have rightly pointed out. I urge the Government to do the sensible thing—the common-sense thing—and to negotiate a real implementation period to protect our economy from the double blow of the pandemic and Brexit.

Covid-19: Economic Package

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Tuesday 12th May 2020 Commons Chamber

[Rishi Sunak]

We will of course keep everything under review, but my expectation is that by then the scheme should end. As I have said before, we have stretched and strained to be as generous as possible to businesses and workers. That is why we have made the decision we have made today, which is important to me personally, but of course as I have also said the scheme is expensive. It is the right thing to do—the cost of not acting would have been far higher—but it is not something that can continue indefinitely into the future. Eight months of total support is a considerable amount of time. Now that we have a plan from the Prime Minister, with a path to reopening those parts of our economy that are closed, I believe we can get the country back on track and get people back into work. This scheme will help them to do it in a measured and phased way, and protect as many jobs as possible.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC) [V]]

Diolch yn fawr, Lefarydd. May I take the opportunity to wish penblwydd hapus to the Chancellor? In Wales, workplace restrictions have not been changed as many parts of the country have not yet passed the peak of infection. The economic taps must not therefore be turned off in Westminster before the public health emergency has subsided in Wales. Will the Chancellor ensure that the furlough scheme remains in place for as long as necessary and in such a form as to enable expert-led public health guidance to be followed in each nation?

[Rishi Sunak]

As I have just said, and have said previously, this is a UK scheme. It applies equally to all regions, nations and sectors of the country. It is generous in its length, extending all the way to October, and I believe that provides sufficient runway and support to businesses wherever they might be in this country. But I thank the right hon. Lady for her warm wishes.

Economic Update

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Tuesday 17th March 2020 Commons Chamber

[Rishi Sunak]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point about the Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government and what he has done. I think that it will make an enormous difference, as will the cash support that we have provided today to pubs and restaurants in his constituency and elsewhere across the country.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

This is a welcome step in the right direction—there is much to welcome in the Chancellor’s announcement—but the family reliant on a zero-hours-contract hospitality worker’s salary or the self-employed tradesman whose cash flow has dried up want to know how this money will reach their bank account. What prevents the Chancellor from introducing a coronavirus universal basic income in his package of new measures which, in itself, would give confidence to thousands of Welsh workers and beyond?

[Rishi Sunak]

We have already taken steps to strengthen the safety net that the right hon. Lady has mentioned in particular. They will be eligible for those enhanced packages, and beyond that, we are looking to do more, as she knows, in the employment support field.

Apprenticeship Levy

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Tuesday 11th February 2020 Westminster Hall

[Richard Graham]

I think the hon. Member was highlighting the issues faced by some small and medium-sized enterprises. There will be great opportunities through some of the larger manufacturing companies with a turnover of more than £3 million in Northern Ireland. I am thinking particularly of companies such as Thales. They have a wonderful opportunity to use some of the levy to help SMEs. It may just be about publicising those opportunities, both among SMEs and larger employers.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

On devolution, the four Welsh police forces give £2 million between them through the apprenticeship levy. Policing is reserved, but education and training are devolved. The Welsh Government insist that they are not responsible for the policing education qualifications framework, while the Home Office insists that apprenticeship funding is a devolved matter. There was a one-off funding package in 2018-19 to resolve that position, but it remains uncertain who will fund what sort of training in Welsh police forces, whether those forces are out of pocket, and what is expected of them from the reserved aspect in Westminster and is not being passed through from the Welsh Government. On such matters, the reserved-devolved interface really requires further discussion. There were warnings at the time that that would happen.

[Richard Graham]

I thank the hon. Member for her point. I think that the Welsh Assembly’s Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee published a report last week highlighting the fact that the levy was introduced without the Assembly being consulted. I have no doubt that the Minister will respond on that issue.

--- Later in debate ---

[Gerald Jones (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Nokes, and I congratulate the hon. Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) on having secured this debate. I will drill a little bit further into the issue raised by the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts).

Apprenticeships are a devolved issue in Wales. Although I praise the Welsh Labour Government for doing what they can to make the levy work and to ensure that apprenticeships are delivered according to the needs of communities and of the Welsh economy, funding for apprenticeships and graduate training is an ongoing issue for Welsh police forces. The UK Government need to provide clarity and to resolve this issue, because for over two years Welsh police forces have been forced to use their own budgets to fund those apprenticeships.

Although training and apprenticeships are devolved to the Welsh Government, policing remains a reserved area. As such, if the Government apply their apprenticeship levy policy to Wales and to all employers with a wage bill of £3 million or more, including police forces, they must also commit to provide the funding for it, not just pass the buck and shirk their responsibilities. My constituency of Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney crosses two police force areas—namely, those of South Wales police and Gwent police. Gwent police have paid some £400,000 into the apprenticeship levy every year, while the figure for South Wales police is closer to £1 million. Collectively, the four Welsh police forces pay over £2 million a year into the levy, but they do not receive that money back from the UK Government.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree with the report of the Commission on Justice in Wales, chaired by former Lord Chief Justice Thomas and commissioned by the hon. Gentleman’s Welsh Labour Government, that now is the time to demand that policing in its entirety be devolved to Wales? That would bring us clarity on exactly this matter.

[Gerald Jones]

I thank the right hon. Lady for that intervention. That is a wider issue, one that is probably too large for this debate, but it should certainly be considered going forward.

In England, the money that police forces have contributed to the levy fund has been reimbursed—they have had their fair share of the funding back—but that is not the case in Wales. This is another example of the Government dodging responsibility on funding and trying to shift the blame, based on a technicality of devolved and reserved powers. The Government must devolve the money required to go alongside their policies, including the apprenticeship levy, not just devolve the policies themselves. At a time of rising crime levels, when we need to be investing heavily in our police and providing them with the support they need to keep our communities safe, the Government should provide the money that Welsh police forces need and deserve so that they can fund those critical apprenticeships.

Jeff Cuthbert and Alun Michael, respectively the police and crime commissioners for Gwent police and for South Wales police, have repeatedly called on the UK Government to provide the funds for those apprenticeships. The Home Office previously advised Welsh forces that from 2019 onwards they would be provided with their fair share of the levy. It is now 2020, more than a year on, and that has still not happened. Welsh police forces have still not received a penny of that funding. With apprenticeships providing an established way for police recruits in Wales to enter the force without a degree, it is crucial that police forces in Wales receive their fair share of the funding as soon as possible.

We know that once the Government’s planned police recruitment drive is complete, whenever that might be, overall police numbers will still be lower than those inherited from the last Labour Government in 2010, as will police numbers in both of the police areas in my constituency. If the Government will not commit to providing the funding for apprenticeships lost through the apprenticeship levy, there will be even fewer police officers on the streets of Wales. This issue has gone on for a very long time and that funding is needed to support police forces across Wales, so I hope the Minister can provide clarity and reassurance.

The Economy

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Thursday 24th October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Kirsty Blackman]

That is genuinely shocking. Maternity allowance is something that people absolutely need to get if they are entitled to it, and this UK Government need to step up to the plate and ensure that the women who are entitled to it get it, without months of backlog.

The Government keep talking about “Getting Brexit done.” But the reality, as set out in the piece the Chancellor wrote in 2016, is that, whether a deal is passed this week or not, there will be years, if not decades, of negotiations with the EU. This Government need to be honest with people about that. The Government are not going to be able to get Brexit done in the next week, whatever happens. We need that extension to happen and we need to ensure that there is no cliff edge.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Does my hon. Friend share my concern at reports that the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, addressing a Committee in the Senedd in Cardiff, has just told us that there are no impact assessments for Holyhead?

[Kirsty Blackman]

I am shocked that the UK Government would try to convince us to vote for anything that they refused to do an impact assessment on. I take this opportunity to throw down the gauntlet to all MPs who represent Scottish or Welsh constituencies: they should all walk through the Lobby with us to support amendment (h). If they do not support the rights and desires of the people of Scotland and of Wales, they will be doing a disservice to their constituents, their constituencies and their countries. The amendment must be agreed tonight, because we must recognise the importance of freedom of movement and the negative impacts in respect of inequality that the Government are having, and we must do everything we can to recognise that there is a climate emergency and to ensure that solid action is taken to step up to the plate and become world leaders.

Local Bank Closures

Liz Saville Roberts Excerpts

Wednesday 12th June 2019 Westminster Hall

[Douglas Ross]

My hon. Friend’s seat in the Scottish Borders, my own in Moray and many others across Scotland do not have adequate broadband provision to allow a suitable online connection, to which the banks are directing so many people. I will be interested to hear the Minister’s response to the point made by my hon. Friend.

It is right that we should discuss bank closures in the round, but this debate specifically addresses the point at which the final bank branch in a town closes. Sadly, we have recently seen that in Lossiemouth. Lossiemouth is not a small town; it is a growing town. The population is increasing, largely due to the UK Government’s investment there. We are putting £400 million extra in RAF Lossiemouth, which will be the home of the P-8 Poseidon aircraft. With that, there will be at least an additional 400 personnel and their families coming to the town.

It is all the more bizarre and upsetting that now, when Lossiemouth has this huge investment and is preparing for an increase in population, the last branch in the town should have decided to go—it closed last week. This weekend was the first without the branch and, as I will mention later, the ATM was also removed. In the first weekend after the branch closed and the ATM was removed, a town with almost 8,000 residents was left with no cash whatever. The two remaining cash machines in Lossiemouth ran out of money.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

I am sure that all of us here now have experience of towns with no banks in them. If a town known to be highly dependent on the cash economy, as many of our tourism towns are—this particularly affects bars and pubs—loses its last bank, people will be aware that cash is being kept on premises. To what extent have the Government considered the security of the towns and the threat of organised crime? Bars and pubs in particular—on bank holiday weekends, say—will no longer be able to deposit cash locally, so that cash will be held on the premises, which are not equipped and not necessarily insured to hold that level of cash. This is an aspect that we have not considered so far.

[Douglas Ross]

I am grateful to the right hon. Lady, because that issue came up when I held a public meeting in Lossiemouth, following the announcement that the final branch in the town would close. The local football club, Lossiemouth F. C., said that it had checked with its insurers, who said that they would either increase the premium to a level that it could not afford or simply not insure it at all, because it would now not be able to deposit cash at the end of the night: the cash would have to remain on the premises. I hope the Minister addresses that issue, but we also have to put it to the insurers, because it is no fault of the football club or other operators in these towns that the banks are now closed and people cannot deposit money.

I want to return to Lossiemouth, a huge town in Moray, being left without cash this weekend. Denise Bedson of the Lossiemouth Business Association told The Press & Journal:

“The situation at the weekend was disgraceful. A lot of small businesses can’t afford card facilities. I know there are cheaper solutions but the phone signal isn’t always the best here for them to work properly. We’re trying to get more banking facilities here because the situation is very difficult”.

It was so difficult that there were reports of people going into the local store to buy one tin of baked beans just to get cash back. They had to buy something that they did not want or need, simply to get money from the store, because the cash machines were not working. Councillor James Allan, my colleague, who represents Heldon and Laich, has been a great local champion for this cause for years. We have gone from four banks and seven ATMs down to just two ATMs. In a community the size of Lossiemouth, that is simply unacceptable. This is just the first weekend. We have serious concerns that this will go on further.

Mention was made of tourism and tourist businesses. Lossiemouth is a great attraction for tourists, with whom it is very popular. We have takeaways and taxi firms, which do not accept credit cards or debit payments. They will suffer as a result of this. Lossiemouth Community Council and its councillors Mike Mulholland and Carolle Ralph have been highlighting the bank closures for some time; they also held a public meeting about them, following my meeting. The issue has been of considerable concern since the announcement was made last November. We knew that this was coming, but the banks have deserted Lossiemouth and other communities across Moray, Scotland and the UK. I believe that they have to do more about it.

While I am speaking about Lossiemouth, the area in Moray that is most affected because it has no branch left, I also want to mention post offices. They play a vital role, but there are some limitations. I know how hard Tony Rook, owner of the post office in Lossiemouth, and his staff are trying—as he commented in The Northern Scot this week, they are doing their level best—but when there is a spike in use and they are away for the weekend, there is nothing that they can do to put more money into their cash machine. He has one of the two cash machines in Lossiemouth. It costs his business to have it facing outwards to the street, but he does it as a public service. It is a great service, but even with great efforts from him and his staff, we were still left without money in a Moray town at the weekend. That is something that we need to look at.

It is not just Lossiemouth that has been affected. At the same time as the closure in Lossiemouth was announced, there was another in Keith. I held a public meeting there as well; I was grateful for the attendance of local councillor Donald Gatt, as well as Paul McBain, representing the post office, and Pearl Hamilton from the Federation of Small Businesses.

When we consider the impact of branch closures or the reduction of ATMs, we often think only about the customers who want to take money out, but the small businesses in our communities suffer just as much, if not more. FSB Scotland retweeted my tweets about today’s debate because it has great interest in the matter. Small businesses are losing not only the branch that they bank with and deposit their takings at, but the opportunity for people to take money out and spend it in their shops. They are the lifeblood of our local communities, so it is unfortunate and deeply reprehensible that they are being drawn into this.

I also want to speak about the bank’s response. I have to say that its contempt both for its own customers and for local communities is disgusting. As the local Member of Parliament, I got a phone call about the Bank of Scotland’s closures in Lossiemouth and Keith, days before it even wrote to its customers; I know my MSP colleague did, too. It came to the politicians to tell us, “This is what we are doing—oh, and by the way, we will tell our customers after the bank holiday weekend.” It thought that they could wait a few days before even bothering to tell its customers about news of such magnitude.

The banks get involved in the process that has been laid down to consult and inform communities of their decision, but they never change their mind. It is a fait accompli—they have decided what they are doing. When communities rightly stand up against these cuts and removals to express their concern about how deeply damaging they will be, the banks turn a deaf ear: they are not interested, and they do not want to hear it. I have to say that I think their behaviour shocking and unacceptable.