Armed Forces Bill
Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts(10 years, 6 months ago)
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Mrs Moon
May I say how much I welcome my hon. Friend’s appointment? I totally agree about the need to probe the issue of extending British law to troops based and training here. The people of Cambridgeshire need a full explanation of why that was not possible. Whether it proves possible is moot. The important thing is that they know it is being fully explored. Will she also say something about the importance of opening up the ability of members of the armed forces to come forward when they have experienced rape and sexual assault, as often they are advised by people in the chain of command that it might damage their career to do so?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. There is plenty of time to speak. If the hon. Lady wishes to make a speech, I will put her on the list with pleasure.
Maria Eagle
I thank my hon. Friend, who is a member of the Defence Select Committee, for her welcome for my appointment, and I hear what she has to say about these matters. The reason Liberty is campaigning on some of these issues is that, if things go wrong, it can destroy people’s lives and cause many difficulties, not only for the individuals affected but for the services. In Committee, I want us to debate the matter further with Ministers, who I know have met and considered these matters with campaigners, and to hear a bit more detail about policy development and where they are in respect of some of these things.
We have already heard from the Secretary of State the rationale for extending the provisions in the Armed Forces Act 2006 to the Isle of Man and British overseas territories, except Gibraltar, but we will want to make sure, by way of the normal scrutiny one would expect of a Bill, that the provisions are correctly drafted, fit for purpose and will do what he said he wants them to do.
We are concerned about the rationale for the provisions in clauses 14 and 15 relating to the powers of Ministry of Defence firefighters in an emergency. There is no discernible problem, or any reason why those provisions need to be in the Bill. The explanatory notes suggest, as the Secretary of State did, that MOD firefighters currently have no power in an emergency to act to protect life and property, but I wonder whether there have been instances of the kind of difficulty to which he referred. Have there been instances of such firefighters being prosecuted, or being sued for assault or for breaking and entering? If there have been any such instances, I can see why he might want to introduce these provisions. If there have been no such instances and this is simply a tidying-up exercise, how come he perceives a problem now?
Maria Eagle
I am grateful to the Secretary of State for that further explanation. In preparing for my remarks, I gave the chief fire officer of Merseyside’s fire and rescue authority a ring to ask whether the Chief Fire Officers Association, of which he is a member, has been consulted about these provisions. I thought it might have asked for this kind of measure. My contact with him was the first he had heard of these provisions, although he was of the opinion that he would have expected the CFOA or the local authority fire and rescue authorities to have been consulted ahead of their introduction. They are category 1 responders and would have expected to have been consulted on these provisions. There are well-known, regular opportunities for the MOD to consult and liaise with the civilian fire authorities and chief officers, but that has not been done in this instance, which made me wonder precisely what was going on. The provisions seem to imply the deployment of MOD firefighters beyond the confines of their current role on MOD property. The definition of “firefighter” includes, as I believe the Secretary of State said, contractors and subcontractors employed by private companies, and we are at a time when the work the Defence Fire Risk Management Organisation does is being outsourced or tendered. We will want to probe this matter further in Committee.
The Secretary of State has sought to reassure me, and I am open to being reassured. I am pleased to confirm that, with those few remarks and slight concerns notwithstanding, we will be supporting the Bill and seeking in Committee to probe its provisions, improving them where we can. Of course, if they cannot be improved, we will support them. [Interruption.]
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Is anybody interested in speaking? I call Jack Lopresti.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. I can understand the temptation, but I do not want to open this pretty technical debate into a general point-scoring debate on policy. As I say, I can understand the temptation, but I am sure the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Brendan O'Hara) will want to stick to what we are debating.
Brendan O'Hara
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. To respond very briefly, I refer the hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) to the White Paper published before the referendum. Everything would be contained therein. The Scottish National party is quite clear about its paramount commitment to conventional defences. We would thus obviously invest in such defences.
I shall take your advice, Mr Deputy Speaker, and perhaps not engage further, other than to say that we shall support the Bill as it makes its way through Committee. Most notably, at the 2015 general election, the SNP was the only party to make a commitment to providing a statutory footing for a British Armed Forces Federation. We would like to introduce such provisions into the Bill in Committee. There is, of course, already an established British Armed Forces Federation, which provides a professional, independent and apolitical voice for service personnel. The BAFF is, in its own words,
“a specifically British solution for the British Armed Forces”,
which campaigns on range of issues such as armed forces housing, compensation and improved medical care for veterans.
Veterans’ mental health is particularly important. I recommend anyone attending last night’s Adjournment debate—and those who did not attend it—to get hold of the Hansard and read the fantastic contribution from my hon. Friend the Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Dr Cameron), ably supported by the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Johnny Mercer). This was a learned and informed debate—a shining example, I believe, of this House at its best.
If the BAFF were given statutory status, it would be a far more robust organisation in providing legal advice, aid for the writing of wills, anti-bullying advice, grievance reporting and, of course, aid to those with mental health problems. The idea of having an armed forces federation is not new and it is not radical. Indeed, there are several such federations operating extremely well within the armed forces of many of our NATO allies. Norway, Denmark, Belgium, Germany and Hungary all have armed forces federations, while there are also recognised and functioning armed forces federations in Australia and, closer to home, in Ireland. I firmly believe that a mature and responsible military such as that of the United Kingdom has nothing to fear from an armed forces federation.
As I said elsewhere, it should be seen as complementary rather than in opposition to the chain of command. A federation would not impinge in any way on the chain of command, but would rather give support to service personnel and their families—and, of course, to our veterans, to whom we all have a duty of care. If a federation works well for the police force, surely it is wholly appropriate that we extend the same right to our military personnel, who put their lives on the line every time they go on duty.
In conclusion, we support the Bill and will continue to support it, but we will go through it, as the hon. Member for Garston and Halewood said, line by line to make sure that the Bill will be the best that it can be. Our service personnel deserve no less.
Mr Jones
I know that the Scottish nationalist party wants to play up its victim mentality, which it has turned into an art form that I admire, but the idea to which the hon. Gentleman’s White Paper refers, which is that Scotland could provide the manpower needed for its proposals from the Scottish population, which is getting older, was absolute nonsense—[Interruption.] May I give him some evidence? He needs only to look at the recruitment to Scottish regiments when they were reorganised. Why was one regiment in Scotland—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. We have moved way off the subject of the Bill. I understand that there is a desire to keep proceedings going, so I am not trying to pin it down to a tight debate, but I like to try to keep the debate on the subject of the Bill at least a little, so I am sure that the hon. Gentleman could mention it now and again. Given his experience, I know that that will never be a difficulty.
Mr Jones
I would refer, for example, to the recruitment of overseas nationals from the Commonwealth. The regiments that had to backfill with Fijians were the Scottish regiments because they could not get the numbers within Scotland. If the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute has some magic pool of people in Scotland who will suddenly join the armed forces or if there is some huge boom that will happen in the next few years that means that 18-year-olds and fit individuals will join the armed forces, I would like to see them.
Brendan O’Hara
The hon. Gentleman is not exactly doing the idea of the United Kingdom a great service. Indeed, he is pointing out everything that is wrong with the current system.
Mr Deputy Speaker
Order. I think we are now going to get back to the Bill. We have had enough playing around. Kevan Jones, have you finished?
Mr Deputy Speaker
That is all right then. What I will say is that you have finished on this point.
Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)
I shall try to resist the urge to go off the point, Mr Deputy Speaker. The shadow Minister is a very experienced Member of Parliament and when he started his political career the world was a different place from what it is today. Does he recognise the necessity of having a much more flexible military system to deal with the threats that are evolving and changing in the world today?
Mr Deputy Speaker
Order. I think I might be able to help here. The hon. Gentleman might have been referring to the civil war as regards Kevan Jones, as he has been around for a long time, but we are not going to open up a debate about when he first got here and how the armed forces have changed.
Mr Jones
The hon. Gentleman makes a good point, however. It is not just the equipment and how we deploy things that has changed. The armed forces do not sit in a vacuum away from the rest of society, and that is one of the main issues for consideration. Things that were acceptable 20, 30 or 40 years ago for young people who joined the armed forces no longer are. When I was a Minister talking to senior military personnel, I heard that young people were far more questioning, although not in a disrespectful way, and more knowledgeable about their rights. They wanted to engage rather than take instructions. That is a challenge for the armed forces. We need to ensure that there are mechanisms in place for when things go wrong and, as I said in an intervention during the speech from the hon. Member for Portsmouth South, a safety valve to deal with complaints.
Britain and International Security
Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts(10 years, 9 months ago)
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Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
We are stretching over the seven minutes now. If we can do up to seven minutes, everybody will get equal time and the Front Benchers will be able to respond accordingly.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. May I suggest that hon. Members speak for just six minutes?
Tom Tugendhat
I have been part of the main debate from the beginning.
Does my hon. and learned Friend recognise that it is the governance problem in Nigeria that is causing the rise of Boko Haram? The rise of so many of these insurgent movements has rather more to do with governance and diplomatic problems than military ones.
Stephen Phillips
I recognise that, and I am coming on to it, although it is always difficult to condense—
Stephen Phillips
It is always difficult to condense a longer speech into a shorter speech, but I will take the injunction from the Chair.
In closing, this is a problem that Ministers must not forget. Of course the threat from Daesh is critical and something with which we must deal, but the threat of Islamist terrorism across Africa is also a very real threat. It threatens us here. I hope that the Minister will say that it is a matter of which the Foreign Office is aware and on which it will concentrate.
Defence Spending
Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts(11 years, 1 month ago)
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Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
I am following the hon. Gentleman’s speech with great admiration. He talks about banishing demons. There are 632 demons that we cannot banish: those who will be commemorated tomorrow; those who died as a result of terrible mistakes made in this Chamber that sent them to Helmand and Iraq. Should we not acknowledge the dreadful delusions, under which we have been operating for the past 12 years, which created those disasters, before we repeat them?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. In fairness, Mr Flynn, you have just asked to be put on the speaking list. I want to hear your speech later rather than now.
Mr Baron
All I will say is that we can have our own opinions about those misguided interventions, or interventions generally. I do not think any of us would say that it has been the fault of the troops on the ground. They did a sterling job in their operations. If the fault lies anywhere, it is with the politicians and the generals who perhaps promised too much and delivered too little.
In closing, I call on both main parties—I do mean both main parties—to recognise their reluctance to commit to spending at least 2% of GDP on defence. As an ex-solider and an MP now of 14 years, I find it difficult to believe that I am still, with others, having to try to make this case. I make no apologies for repeating that the adage about defence of the realm being the first duty of Government has been forged by events. We ignore the lessons of history at our peril. Whereas previous generations have perhaps had time to recover from such adverse situations, time may be a luxury we can no longer afford. We must learn those lessons.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
On urgent operational requirements, the key is in the wording. We do not necessarily have any idea of the threats or requirements in advance. Our soldiers, sailors and airmen will suddenly be in a situation where we have to find a piece of kit to protect them better. That is the key—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. Again, the hon. Gentleman wishes to speak later. Please keep something back. Do not use it all at once.
Mr Havard
Obviously, yes, we will continue to need them. I am trying to make the point that this became the process, rather than the exception to the process—it should be the exception—and the money came out of the contingency fund, not the core budget.
The budget should be 2%. As hon. Members might remember, when Labour was in Government and people said, “You should give more money to defence”, I used to say, “Well, if I was Gordon Brown, I’d say, ‘When you can spend the money I’ve given you properly, come back and ask for some more.’” That is the same debate, and it is the debate for the future. How do we plan for it properly? I think that 2% might give us a way of structuring the discussion. Spent well, the 2% could give us ways of planning and the right language, tools and transparency.
I have something to say to us in Parliament. This is probably the last time I will speak in this Parliament, so I will say something to the next one. The next Parliament will have to debate this better than we have debated it up till now. As I have said several times, we do not have structures any more and we do not discuss defence properly. We can make all the criticisms we like of other people and how well they do things, but we would do well to look at ourselves and consider how well we do them. In my opinion, the 2% could give us, if not certainty, at least some process by which to start to plan against the uncertainty, and it could enable other people to plan for themselves. For me, this is iterative; it will have to deal with the concurrence issue; and it is more than just a declaratory or arbitrary figure—it has a purpose.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
That was a perfect example of taking up to 10 minutes. If we all stick to that, everybody will get in with the same amount of time.
Defence and Security Review (NATO)
Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts(11 years, 1 month ago)
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Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. I am going to have to put a time limit on speeches, because we are drifting, and it was suggested earlier that Members should speak for up to 10 minutes. Sir Hugh, I assume that you will soon be coming to the end of your speech.
Sir Hugh Bayley
I will crack on quickly, Mr Deputy Speaker.
I have put my name to the early-day motion drafted by the hon. Member for Mid Worcestershire (Sir Peter Luff), which calls for the 2% commitment to be maintained. However, like the hon. Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax), I do not believe that that is enough. I believe that we should be increasing our defence spending as a proportion of GNP. I have of course raised that with Opposition Front Benchers. I seek a commitment tonight from the Minister and the shadow Minister that the strategic defence and security reviews that they would respectively commission, depending on who wins the general election, will be led by concerns about security and will not be cost-driven, which was a criticism that many people made of the 2010 SDSR.
It is five years since NATO adopted its new strategic concept. It was intended to last for 10 years, but the security threats we face are clearly changing, so it needs to be reviewed. Therefore, another question that I wish to put to both the Minister and my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) is: would their respective strategic defence and security reviews consider whether NATO’s strategic concept needs to be reviewed?
Trident Renewal
Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts(11 years, 2 months ago)
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Sir Nick Harvey
I feel I must correct the historical record. In the summer of 2010, a value-for-money study on the successor programme concluded that savings could be made by slipping the time scale slightly. This was not something the Liberal Democrats demanded, although it was something we welcomed. It had the happy consequence of moving maingate into the next Parliament, but it was not something we sought, demanded or—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. The hon. Gentleman spoke for 31 minutes, and very long interventions will not help those Members who want to speak.
Dr Lewis
I shall also try to be more concise in the remainder of my speech, Mr Deputy Speaker.
All I can say to the hon. Member for North Devon, whom I greatly respect and admire, is that he ought to have a word with the then president of the Liberal Democrats, who proudly proclaimed on the Liberal Democrats’ official website that it was entirely as a result of the Liberal Democrats that we had not taken the decisive step of signing the maingate contract in this Parliament. I can only leave them to decide the issue between themselves.
Let me return to some of the purely military arguments in favour of the continuation of the strategic deterrent, mercifully leaving the politics to one side. The most important argument, as I have stated in previous debates in this House, is the recognition that future military threats and conflicts will be no more predictable than those that engulfed us throughout the 20th century. That is the overriding justification for preserving armed forces in peace time as a national insurance policy. No one knows which enemies might confront us during the next 50 years, for that is the period we are discussing by the time everything is designed, constructed and deployed, and has served out its operational lifetime. It is highly probable that at least some of those potential enemies will be armed with weapons of mass destruction.
Secondly, it is not the weapons themselves that we have to fear but the nature of the regimes that possess them. While democracies are usually reluctant to use nuclear weapons against non-nuclear dictatorships, although they did so against Japan in 1945 as has been pointed out, the reverse is not true.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. Rather than imposing a time limit, I suggest that hon. Members keep their speeches to about 10 minutes.
First World War (Commemoration)
Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts(11 years, 9 months ago)
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Dan Jarvis
I was not aware of that, so, again I am grateful for that intervention, from which I have learned something.
I was reflecting on the impact that the war had on this House and speaking about those Members of Parliament who went to serve, but we should be mindful of the fact that the war would not just be experienced by those on the front line. When the Lochnagar mine was detonated at 7.28 am on 1 July 1916 by the Royal Engineers at the start of the battle of the Somme, the noise was heard in Downing street. That same year, all three party leaders would lose a son in the war in the space of six months. In December 1917, the Speaker at the time was forced to adjourn a debate so that hon. Members could, as Hansard records it, “'retreat to the cellars” during a German air raid.
These commemorations, as well as looking back, should also be about looking forward, because if we get this right and if we dedicate ourselves to these commemorations in the right way, they should also be relevant to the lives we live today. We should be mindful of the fact that 100 years ago, on 22 May 1914, suffragettes were being arrested at the gates of Buckingham palace, petitioning for the right to vote, whereas on 22 May 2014 nearly two thirds of a country with universal suffrage decided they were better off staying at home on election day. One hundred years ago the debate was about whether women should be allowed in the polling booth and whether they could do jobs that only men had done before. Today, the debate needs to be about getting more women on to ballot papers and into boardrooms at the top of our work force.
One hundred years ago, nobody had ever heard of shellshock or post-traumatic stress disorder. Today, the issue is not just what more we can do for our veterans returning from action, but how we prioritise the mental health of everyone. One hundred years ago, people from all over the world fought and died to protect this country. Today we need to remember the debt that we owe to people who were not born here, but who helped make this country what it is. One hundred years ago, the first world war changed the role of the state. Government took action on food, rents and wages, and that links to one of the central arguments in our public life today: what Government should and should not do in the 21st century.
I began by reflecting on a quote of David Lloyd George on Armistice day. Let me finish with some words from a week later. On 18 November 1918, this House gathered again to debate an address to the King on a victorious peace. These are the words spoken that day by Herbert Asquith, who began the war as Prime Minister and ended it as Leader of the Opposition. This was his reflection:
“When history comes to tell the tale of these four years, it will recount a story the like of which is not to be found in any epic in any literature. It is and will remain by itself as a record of everything humanity can dare or endure--of the extremes of possible heroism and of possible baseness…The old world has been laid waste…All things have become new.”—[Official Report, 18 November 1918; Vol. 110, c. 3237.]
Nearly a century on, those words have lost none of their power or their resonance, and they reflect what should be our guiding light in these commemorations. We should remember that sacrifice that was laid to dust and reflect on what changed and what became new. If someone is to look back in 50 or 100 years to what was said when this House and this country marked the centenary of the first world war, let us hope that it will be said that we kept true to that—that we kept the memory of those who served burning brightly, not wearied by the passage of time, and that we took this important opportunity to reflect on how we became the country we are today and on all those who made it possible.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. As there are important and relevant speeches to be made, may I suggest to all Members that they aim to speak for about 10 minutes each? That will give everyone a fair chance to make their speech and to raise their constituency issues.
Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab)
I begin by commending the Government both for finding time for this important debate and for the measured way in which these centenary commemorations are being prepared. The way in which we describe the events of 1914-18 as the first world war, the great war or the war to end all wars reflects its global nature, the extent of the fighting and the fact that this was the first total war of the modern age. I am struck that the commemorations so far have been very personal to my constituents and many people I meet. It is as though everyone has a story to tell or everyone is searching for a story to tell, so I want to begin with an example that is not extraordinary in any way; it is just one story among millions.
The story is that of Sergeant Matthew Brown, who served in the 12th Battalion of the Durham Light Infantry. He was born in Consett in county Durham. He was one of seven children. He became a stonemason. He never married. He had no children. He was killed during the later stages of the battle of the Somme in October 1916. He was just 27 years old, which is less than half my age. He was blown to pieces near the village of Le Sars, along the Albert-Bapaume road, and his body was never recovered. His name, with those of thousands of his comrades, is inscribed on the great and moving memorial to the missing at Thiepval. I do not know what went through Matthew Brown’s mind when he enlisted or in the hours and days before he died, but I doubt very strongly that he would ever have imagined in a million years, let alone a hundred years, that his name would be mentioned in this great House of Commons, let alone by his great nephew, but I am proud to do so.
The commemorations are not just about those individuals, of course. They bring together local communities. Less than two weeks ago, I stood with veterans and local residents in Cullercoats in my constituency at a service to rededicate a plaque with the names of local men who died in the first world war. The plaque stands on the east side of St George’s church and was rededicated at exactly the same time on exactly the same date as the original plaque was dedicated 93 years earlier. Students at Marden high school took part in the event, and they will now research further the effects of the war on what was then a small fishing community.
One issue that emerged, and I am sure is emerging in many other places, is that some of the names on the plaque were of men who had no link with that community. Many of the men who died in the community are not on that plaque. Yet of course, it is a listed monument so, apart from one small correction of a spelling mistake, and that after a great deal of deliberation, no changes can be made. That is frustrating for families sometimes.
The plaque includes the names of Major and Captain Knott. Their father Sir James Knott was distraught at the deaths of his only two sons and set up a trust that continues to do good work today, including the building of Knotts flats to improve the provision of municipal housing in what was then a declining fishing and mining port.
The Tynemouth world war one project is based at the Linskill centre and funded by the Heritage Lottery Fund. More than 70 volunteers, under the inspirational leadership of Alan Fidler and Dan Jackson, are mapping the stories of men and women from just one borough—Tynemouth. They have already identified 2,000 men who lost their lives as a result of world war one. Most of them are from the town where I live, North Shields.
Any of us who have studied or taught the history of the 19th century and looked at industrial cities will be familiar with the maps that show where people died in cholera and typhus epidemics. The map that has been produced by the project is remarkably similar, yet this was a man-made epidemic.
Lectures at Northumbria university have been well attended and there have been less formal ones at the Low Lights Tavern. The project aims to mark with a plaque as many houses as can be found of those who fell. It is important for local people to know. Local newspapers such as the News Guardian and Evening Chronicle have given not only support but excellent coverage of what the project is doing. This Saturday the database will go live and on 3 August there will be a parade and service in Northumerland square. The project’s aims were to be informative, accessible and inspirational, and it is all those things and more.
The north-east paid a particularly high price in the war. It was said that working in the coal mines and shipyards gave local men the aptitude and stamina for trench warfare. Northumberland raised 55 battalions of fusiliers—more than any other county in the country. The Durham Light Infantry raised 43 battalions. Their histories record them as being where the action was heaviest. There were eight battalions of Tyneside Scottish and Tyneside Irish, showing where men had come from to work on the great northern coalfield. The Tyneside Scottish alone lost all four of its lieutenant-colonels on the first day of the battle of the Somme.
Scholars and historians will go on debating the first world war, its causes, its course and its effects, and so they should, but what is not debatable is the sacrifice made by individual soldiers, sailors and airmen, or the munitions workers, miners and shipyard workers— 60,000 of them along the banks of the river Tyne—who worked tirelessly to support the war effort. As the son of a Bevin boy, I support very much the idea that there should be a lasting memorial to them. Millions of men and women were prepared to defend their country—our country—and the values that they believed their country stood for. For the millions who gave their lives, in the famous words of Laurence Binyon, I say, “We will remember them.”
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
We are now going to hear a maiden speech. I call Robert Jenrick.
Defence Spending
Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts(11 years, 9 months ago)
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Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
It would be ideal if Members took 10 minutes as everybody could then be accommodated.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. We are now going to be struggling on time, so the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) will understand if he does not get to contribute to the winding-up speeches. If Members take up to, but not over, 10 minutes, we should get everybody in.
Defence Reform Bill
Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts(12 years, 4 months ago)
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Mrs Moon
We talk as if the members of our armed forces are delicate little flowers, whose sensitivities are such that debates in this House have them crying into their cocoa at bedtime. The reserves and the regulars, for whom we all have huge respect, want to ensure that the service in which they proudly serve is organised and run efficiently and effectively. They, and this House, do not have that trust at the moment, and that is what we are looking for.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
May I just ask for short interventions? Many Members still wish to speak. Let us make sure that everybody’s voice is heard.
Thomas Docherty
On new clause 6, we have all heard, in the Defence Committee and elsewhere, that the biggest disincentive to joining the reserves, of whichever service, is getting time off work. These are the words of the Secretary of State’s Parliamentary Private Secretary, the hon. Member for Portsmouth North (Penny Mordaunt):
“a lot of reservists find it difficult to get time off for deployment or training courses”.—[Official Report, 23 April 2013; Vol. 561, c. 273WH.]
I am sorry that she is not in her place today. Perhaps she is training. [Interruption.] She is away on a course and we wish her all the best. Even the Secretary of State’s PPS has acknowledged that this is a huge challenge.
The White Paper sets out an ambitious goal of increasing the annual training requirement to 40 days, and I think Members on all sides of the House recognise the importance of that. I hope the Secretary of State will support new clause 6—his Liberal Democrat colleagues will, for reasons I will explain in a moment—because it seeks to provide a simple way to address that goal: reservists would receive an additional two weeks unpaid leave from their employer, provided that their firms had more than 50 employees. The hon. Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley) made the point that we have to careful about the impact on small and medium-sized enterprises, and it is right that we provide protection to smaller companies. The proposal is sensible and measured, because reservists will receive their military pay at no cost to their employer. In the rare cases of resistance from an employer, we propose that complaints are referred to an employment tribunal for arbitration.
I must confess that I am confident that the Liberal Democrats will vote for new clause 6 because the idea was originally developed by them and was passed at their party conference only seven weeks ago. I suspect that the former Minister for the Armed Forces, the hon. Member for North Devon (Sir Nick Harvey), has had a large hand in writing their defence policy, and that, in the regrettable and unforeseen event of there being a Division, he will vote for the new clause.
Martin Horwood
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Having missed some of the recent debate, I am unclear as to which clause we are precisely discussing—and I really cannot tell from the hon. Gentleman’s speech.
Dr Lewis
If the hon. Gentleman had not been absent, he would have heard the great deal of discussion that took place about the priority of defence in the nation’s schedule of priorities. If he had made that bogus, so-called point of order having been here, I would have had some time for him, but given that he did not even have the courtesy to listen to the debate before making it, it was unworthy.
The reality is that a nation gets the defence forces it is prepared to pay for and it can decide what level of services it will fund—whether that involves cuts in the Army, the Royal Navy or the Royal Air Force that could be avoided.
The next question is whether this scheme for the reserves was linked to the proposed cut in the size of the Army. As I said, if this scheme had been put forward on its own, I could have wholeheartedly supported it, but it was not. It was specifically put forward as a compensating factor for the Army’s regular strength being reduced by 20,000. We were told that that reduction would be compensated for by the 30,000 increase in reserves. Now we are told that that linkage no longer exists. My hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire asked what we will do if we find that in fact the reserve scheme is not working. If I understood him correctly—I think I did—he said that, by the time we discovered that we were not going to get the 30,000 reservists, it would be too late to regenerate any of the loss in the 20,000 regulars. [Interruption.] He seems to be indicating that I have understood him correctly. If that is the case, I take great exception to the fact that this linkage was ever made in the first place.
If we are to be told that we have to accept cuts in this country’s defence capability, we should be told that honestly. We should not constantly be confronted with shifting goalposts. If the recruitment of 30,000 reservists may or may not be achieved, and if the 20,000 cut in regulars will happen nevertheless and is irreversible, we should have been told that at the outset. [Interruption.] Somebody says, “We were.” Who said that?
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. In yesterday’s debate on women and the cost of living, I asked the Economic Secretary to the Treasury a question about the bonuses paid to men being double the size of those paid to women. I spoke to her in the Lobby tonight. Her reply yesterday was about pay, but my question was about bonuses. Is it right and proper for that to be clarified in Hansard tonight, and perhaps by the hon. Lady in person?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
It is not a point of order, but it is certainly a point of clarification, which the hon. Gentleman has achieved.
Defence Reforms
Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts(12 years, 5 months ago)
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Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. May I remind Members that there is a six-minute limit?
Defence Reform Bill
Lindsay Hoyle Excerpts(12 years, 8 months ago)
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Mr Murphy
We are looking for a level playing field and a level negotiating table—if a metaphor it is—because this issue is so significant. I welcome what the Secretary of State said about hopefully simplifying and strengthening the process. However, procurement might have become a little more complicated as a consequence of a speech given today by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury in another place—which would normally mean the second Chamber, but which on this occasion appears to mean the Royal United Services Institute. We are pretty clear: Labour have always said that we are committed to the minimum credible independent nuclear deterrent. Actually, I should correct myself: we have not always said that.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
I think it has always been the case for you, Mr Murphy.
Mr Murphy
You know me well, Mr Deputy Speaker. Since we were serious, we have always said—[Hon. Members: “Ooh!”] Sorry: since we are being serious about our nation’s defence and have a passing affection for the public’s opinion, we have always said that we are committed to the minimum credible independent nuclear deterrent, which we believe is best delivered through a continuous at-sea deterrent. It would require a substantial body of evidence for us to change that view, but the review published today does not appear to offer such evidence. We will continue to scrutinise today’s report on the grounds of capability, cost and disarmament. Labour will also continue to look at ways in which a minimum, credible, independent nuclear deterrent can be delivered most efficiently, based on protecting our capability, delivering value for money and advancing disarmament objectives.
John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)
If you will permit me for a moment to continue straying off the topic slightly, Mr Deputy Speaker, may I put on the record the fact that the shadow Defence team deserves a great deal of credit for keeping both sides of the House on the right path, both for the thousands of jobs in my constituency and for our future defence for generations ahead?
Mr Deputy Speaker
Order. May I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that he should try to hold back his speech for tomorrow? I would not want him to use it all up today, and I think he got the point across.
Mr Murphy
I take your strictures about our not using the speeches we intend to give tomorrow, Mr Deputy Speaker, but I am not making a speech tomorrow—my hon. Friends will be speaking then—so I thought I would say it today.
The point I am making is about procurement, GoCo and DE&S-plus, and the complexity of the deterrent programme in that process. However, what we have learnt today is that the Lib Dem part of the Government has taken two years to review a policy and spent thousands of pounds of taxpayers’ money, only to conclude that the Lib Dems’ past policy was unachievable. Today they appear to have managed to advocate both a Trident-based system and part-time unilateralism simultaneously. That is a real achievement. The British people will marvel at the incompetence of suggesting that we should pay tens of billions of pounds to send boats to sea, while the media are now being briefed that on occasion they will not even carry missiles. That is like someone having a new, expensive burglar alarm at their home with no batteries and a sign above the door saying, “Come on in—no one’s at home”.
Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)
The right hon. Gentleman must understand and be accurate in his descriptions. This was not a Liberal Democrat review; it was a review by the Government, insisted on by the Liberal Democrats, which says:
“The analysis has shown that there are alternatives to Trident that would enable the UK to be capable of inflicting significant damage such that most potential adversaries around the world would be deterred.”
Credibility—
Mr Deputy Speaker
Order. We are in danger of running tomorrow’s debate today. I do not want to do that; I want to get back to the Bill. [Interruption.] No, you are taking the bait, Mr Horwood. It is no use looking to Mr Murphy; we know he is not here tomorrow, but you will be.
Mr Murphy
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. To be fair to the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood), it was impossible for him not to take the bait. [Interruption.] The Secretary of State sensibly says, “He’s the only Lib Dem here.” There is no audience, as it were, from his party for him to perform for, although the Chief Secretary to the Treasury will make the Lib Dems’ policy clear tomorrow in the Chamber—I hope. However, there is an issue—I will finish on this matter after this point, Mr Deputy Speaker—about how taxpayers’ money has been used to inform a Lib Dem process. I accept that the Government will say that the review is a Government document, but it was intended to inform the Lib Dem manifesto.
One of the primary arguments for a GoCo is its supposed ability to attract and retain higher skills and prevent a loss of talent from DE&S. The Opposition are clear about the need to increase the skill levels in our armed forces, but we recognise that this requirement limits itself to those in uniform. Those at the front line of defence procurement within government should be the equal in experience of those within industry—a point to which the Secretary of State has alluded. We will carefully scrutinise the procedures in place to ensure that the assessment phase is fair and transparent, and that sufficient controls are in place to ensure that those involved in the possible preparation of a GoCo cannot immediately go and work in that GoCo, a point to which we will return.
While we are on this theme, it seems unacceptable that the Government have not yet fully published their findings on The Sunday Times revelations on cash for access within the Ministry of Defence. The Secretary of State, of course, wrote to me on the matter, explaining the outcomes, but this was a private letter and I was not at liberty to disclose its contents and have chosen not to do so. I think it important, however, for the Secretary of State to provide the full details to the House.
Bob Stewart
I thank my hon. and gallant Friend for allowing me to intervene. I was a staff officer in the Ministry of Defence in 1984, when the world was black and white. I well remember Michael Heseltine introducing a system called “lean look and sharp sword”, which we were told would sort out procurement for ever. I totally agree with the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty), who implied that we have not got the answer to a maiden’s prayer. Whatever we get, we will still have—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. We need short interventions, not major speeches at this stage. I am sure that the question is coming.
Bob Stewart
There is no question; it is a statement. We have not got the solution and we will still have a problem.
Thomas Docherty
My concern is that, as the tail-end batsman, the hon. Gentleman is bringing a level of partisanship to the debate that we have not had so far. He needs to say sorry for the part he played in the Defence team that did two ridiculous U-turns on the aircraft carrier, which opened a capability gap on carrier strike that would not otherwise have existed and that led to more money being wasted. I agree with his point about our time in government, but does he accept that his Government have also made mistakes?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. I might be able to help everybody. I know that Mr Ellwood is going to discuss the Bill and will not continue discussing the theme of past events.
Mr Ellwood
I accept your guidance, Mr Deputy Speaker, so I will not mention the AirTanker project or the fact that the last Government got rid of the Sea Harriers; I will certainly move on. There was a lack of clarity and direction under Labour and, I concede, under previous Governments. That was not just because of procurement, but because of the unclear strategies—
Mr Deputy Speaker
Order. We are going to discuss the Bill. We are not going to keep going back in time, as much as Mr Docherty is tempting you to do so, Mr Ellwood. I know that, as the tail-end Charlie, you want to deal with the Bill.
Mr Ellwood
Again, I am grateful for your guidance, Mr Deputy Speaker.
If I may, I will talk about the complications in procurement projects that can cause costs to increase. The hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife gave the example of the Typhoon and said how the costs had ratcheted up. However, the F-16 is now seen as one of the most successful aircraft in the world, if the hon. Gentleman wishes to listen. It went through a torrid procurement process, but the unit cost has now shrunk because the problems have been removed and enough units have been sold to drive the price down. We are just beginning to grasp the nettle and we need to ensure that we can sell such equipment across the world.
With your permission, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will turn to the Bill. In debating defence procurement it would be remiss of me not to mention the work of Bernard Gray, who first highlighted the worrying state of UK procurement of military equipment, which consumes approximately 40% of the annual defence budget. In his 2009 report, he described the MOD as having a
“substantially overheated equipment programme, with too many types of equipment being ordered for too large a range of tasks at too high a specification”.
That, as successive NAO reports confirmed, is completely unsustainable. I am pleased that the Minister is willing to take up many of the 53 recommendations in Lord Levene’s report on defence reform, and Lord Currie’s report on single-source pricing regulations included the requirement to upgrade the yellow book and a recommendation to introduce a single-source regulations office.
In an intervention, I posed a question on the concerns that I and others have about a possible clash of interests if a GoCo is owned by a foreign operator, an issue that perhaps needs to be explored in Committee. “Off the shelf” has been mentioned as a possible way forward: instead of procuring ourselves, we could simply purchase whatever we need. We saw what happened in Afghanistan when there was a rush to recognise that the Snatch Land Rover was inadequate for our troops there. We suddenly saw the Cougar, Vector, Jackal and Bulldog being purchased off the shelf at huge cost to the taxpayer, until eventually something was found—the Mastiff—that was adequate for the troops. Going shopping and hoping that we hit on the right thing is the not the way to look after our troops on the front line.
On the balance of regular and reserve forces, as I mentioned, I am a member of the reserves and my last exercise was in Laikipia in Kenya. Halfway through the two-and-a-half week exercise, we came together to discuss the future of the TA and its impact on each of us. Round the table, we had to say what would happen if we were required to break away from our jobs for nine months. Not one person in my group was able to put up their hand and say that their employer would be able to grant them permission to be away from work for that period. I hope we can pursue this issue in Committee. We need to secure employees’ rights to ensure that jobs can be protected, otherwise we will struggle to meet the demands of increasing the size of the reserves.
Due to the changing nature of warfare, greater emphasis is now being placed on stabilisation operations. That has been illustrated in both Iraq and Afghanistan, where the kinetic phase of war ended quickly but there was no unconditional surrender. I am reminded of the study by General Charles Krulak, who described the concept of the three-block war: soldiers can be fighting one week, doing stabilisation operations the next and engaging in peacekeeping the week after. Reserves often have civilian skills that regulars do not have, which can be used for those peacekeeping and stabilisation roles.
I am also pleased to see that the relationship between the MOD and the Department for International Development has changed substantially since the Iraq war, when DFID was told that the war was illegal and that it was not allowed to support our military operationally. That was absolutely wrong and I was astonished that Clare Short, in a debate on Iraq, admitted to that. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) is shaking his head. I will show him in Hansard where she said that she thought the war was illegal and therefore did not want to participate in it.
Mr Deputy Speaker
Order. I do not think that DFID is relevant to the Bill. I have allowed a little leeway, but I am worried that the time is being used to discuss what has happened previously. I want the debate to continue on where we are now.
Mr Ellwood
I am grateful for your guidance, Mr Deputy Speaker. I shall come to a conclusion.
The Bill will introduce some of the biggest changes since the creation of the TA in 1908 by the Secretary of State for War, Richard Haldane. Today, the TA represents more than one quarter of our manpower in the British Army. It was never intended to go overseas, but the first world war changed that, and it is now used in all sorts of circumstances to provide not just military but civilian support. The Bill will bring greater job security to those in uniform, result in more funds for training and provide better equipment for the reservists. It is fair to say that we owe all those who serve a debt of gratitude. It is we politicians who put soldiers, be they regulars or reservists, in harm’s way, and I join others in paying tribute to their and their families’ commitment. I welcome the Government’s reforms since 2010 and I very much welcome the Bill.