Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing Bill

Lady Hermon Excerpts

3rd reading: House of Commons & Committee: 1st sitting: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Tuesday 11th July 2017 Commons Chamber

[Karl Turner]

The Minister makes a fair enough point, but with respect, it has been a terrible waste of time debating this matter in the Committee of the whole House when it was previously dealt with in 45 minutes in Committee upstairs. For the sake of appearances, VTAB has been broken up into its component parts and is now being given undue time for debate in this Chamber.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

It is never a waste of time to discuss anything pertaining to the whole of the UK in this House or in a Committee of the whole House. This gives me the opportunity to remind the Minister that we have three airports in Northern Ireland. We are the only part of the United Kingdom that is physically connected to another EU member state—the Republic of Ireland—and it is really important, as has been stated in the debate, that we do not lose air traffic and business from Northern Ireland to airports such as Dublin.

[Karl Turner]

The hon. Lady makes her point on behalf of her constituents, and she makes it well, but I do not think that it requires a response from me.

Coastguard Modernisation

Lady Hermon Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mike Penning]

My hon. Friend knows that I have listened very carefully to the consultation, and to delegations from across the House and across the country. Yes, his local station will close, but the station that covers it on a regular basis will stay open, the local knowledge will still be there and, wherever possible, those staff will be transferred to the new stations.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

I warmly welcome the confirmation in today’s statement that Northern Ireland’s only coastguard centre will be remaining open in Bangor in my constituency. I am very pleased to put on the record the fact that the Minister listened very carefully to all the political voices raised right across the board in Northern Ireland in support of retaining that coastguard centre. Before he agrees to come back to Bangor at my invitation—we would love to have him back, with the good news—will he kindly confirm that he has sought and obtained reassurances from the Irish Government about the continued availability of Irish helicopters, deployed from Sligo and paid for by the Irish Government, to assist the Northern Ireland coastguard so ably, as they have done in the past?

[Mike Penning]

I thank the hon. Lady for her kind comments. It appears that I was, with my proposals, the only politician in many years to manage to unite all the political parties in Northern Ireland. To be fair, I looked very carefully at where the centre should be; Belfast covered the Clyde, the Clyde covered Belfast and the decision to keep the centre in Belfast was taken for resilience purposes. I have now met two Transport Secretaries from the Republic of Ireland and I understand that they have no plans to remove the excellent service they give us. We will share that service as our new search and rescue helicopter is introduced too.

Coastguard Service

Lady Hermon Excerpts

Thursday 24th March 2011 Westminster Hall

[Bill Esterson]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point that builds on what others have said. There is also an issue regarding the daytime stations that are being kept. I shall talk briefly about the option of either Belfast or Liverpool in the proposal. The same thing is happening in Scotland, where two stations are being pitted against each other.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Bill Esterson]

I will very happily give way.

[Lady Hermon]

It is very nice of the hon. Gentleman to do so for someone who has come across the divide—from the mainland of Northern Ireland—to visit England. Our respective coastguards are unfortunately pitted against each other. We have only one remaining coastguard in Northern Ireland based in my constituency in Bangor, North Down. Will the hon. Gentleman tell hon. Members, particularly the Minister, whether the coastguard in Liverpool would feel confident about looking after all of Northern Ireland, for example, Lough Neagh and Lough Erne—upper and lower—if the unthinkable were to come true? I am sure it will not do so, but in the event that it does and the Minister, who is responsible for shipping, decides in favour of Liverpool and not Bangor—I do not think he will—will Liverpool be able to look after Northern Ireland?

[Bill Esterson]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her points because it reminds me that, of course, originally Liverpool was excluded from the consultation. That is something that staff at Liverpool noticed. They have great concerns that the late inclusion of Liverpool as one of the options shows the true intentions of the agency.

--- Later in debate ---

[Bill Esterson]

I think I made it clear earlier that it was a senior manager. I do not have the name with me now, because that is not what my constituent has said to me, so I cannot give hon. Members any more information, but I will talk to the Minister separately if he wants to pursue that.

[Lady Hermon]

I am sorry to prolong this point, but in fairness I feel that I should put on the record that the chief executive of the MCA, Sir Alan Massey, and, separately, the chief coastguard, visited Bangor coastguard. They were courteous in the extreme. They listened very patiently and were very positive, and were receptive to the points that were being made by various MPs representing the Democratic Unionist party and the Alliance party. I just have to put it on the record that I did not hear them labelling MPs as “whingeing”.

[Bill Esterson]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady. I am grateful to hon. Members for their interventions on that point, but I am going to move on.

Another of my constituents, Derek Myers, has written to me with his concerns about search and rescue unit selection. His letter quoted the coastguard regulations:

“The unit selected should be able to reach the scene quickly, and should be suitable for at least one, and preferably as many as possible of the tasks of a SAR operation. Evaluating experience is more subjective and means weighing the normal primary duties of the agency furnishing the SAR unit against the specific operation in hand.”

Derek Myers and many others have said that the regulations indicate how important that local knowledge and those relationships are, and I hope that the Minister will address that point.

I appreciate that time has moved on and that other hon. Members want to speak, so I will conclude. I believe that the proposals are flawed. I hope that the Minister will take on board the alternative proposals from members of staff, and that he will consider the real concerns of the staff, as well as the concerns that emerged from the consultation meetings and the consultation process. I hope that he will reconsider the proposals and look at the proposals that maintain the safety to the level that staff are advising. Listening to front-line staff is very important.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) on bringing this matter to the House, and the number of Members present is obviously an indication of the interest in it. Those of us who represent areas where the coastguard is very effective and does a grand job are pleased to be here. We are perhaps a wee bit disappointed that we did not have the opportunity to debate the issue on the Floor of the House, but we are none the less pleased to have the opportunity to debate it here. We are also pleased that the Minister has been able to come along to respond.

The issue is not about mere numbers, but about life-and-death decisions, which affect us all, and that bears repeating. Winston Churchill, who has been one of my great heroes since I was young, said:

“I am easily satisfied with the very best”,

and it is my belief that we should be satisfied only with the very best. However, it is clear from the proposals that we are not being offered anywhere near the best, and we are certainly dissatisfied. The Minister has been at pains to suggest that no decision has been made and that the consultation document is not simply a paper exercise. The response to it has been overwhelming, and we welcome the Minister’s assurance. Indeed, I spoke to him before the debate.

My postbag has been bulging with letters on this issue, as I suspect many Members’ postbags have been. The only issue that beat it was the snow and ice that we had, and then there were the roads. We therefore had the roads and then the coastguard, as well. When I was first contacted by concerned members of the fishing industry along Strangford lough, the Irish coast and the Down coast in my area, I was immediately troubled. I was also contacted by members of local sailing clubs, as well as caravan park owners and residents.

It was apparent that the issue needed attention at all levels. Colleagues in local councils have also been active, as have Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly. Local groups and others have pledged to raise the issue at the highest level in the House of Commons, where the decision will be made. The hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) brought the issue of the Brixham coastguard in her south-west constituency to the Floor of the House. There is UK-wide concern that Government cutbacks in coastguard provision are not simply an issue of people losing their jobs as a result of budgetary constraints, which is hard enough to accept in itself, but will put lives at risk.

With colleagues, I decided to table an early-day motion, and many Members have signed it and other early-day motions. I have taken the opportunity on two occasions to ask the Prime Minister about the coastguard at Bangor. On both occasions, he said that the consultation was ongoing, but we were obviously looking for something a bit more meaty. None the less, I accept that the consultation process is the way that these things are done and that is what we have to move forward on.

We have had total cross-party support on this issue. I give special credit to the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon), who has energetically, forcefully and directly pursued this matter. As a neighbouring, new MP, I was pleased to support her in that campaign.

Those who use the waters around the Northern Ireland coastline need to be certain that they will have a reliable and speedy response from the coastguard if they get into distress or danger. I fear that the prospective closure of Bangor coastguard station will put all that at risk. With up to 1,000 people and a fishing fleet of more than 80 boats relying on the station, it is critical that safety on the seas is not jeopardised by money-saving schemes.

The proposals are not close to the right solution. They suggest that, even if Bangor closes down, there may not be a daytime operation in Belfast. We have been put in direct competition with Liverpool, which I feel quite aggrieved about. The hon. Member for North Down put that perspective very clearly in a question to a previous speaker.

All Belfast operations are based at Bangor coastguard station. However, it is not just the coasts that are the responsibility of the Bangor operation, but the inland waterways of Lough Neagh and Lough Erne. We should not forget that it also has responsibility for the mountain rescue teams for the Sperrins and the Mournes. All those things come within the remit of the coastguard in Northern Ireland.

[Lady Hermon]

The energetic MP for North Down rises—it was awfully nice of the hon. Gentleman to call me that. I am sure my good neighbour will acknowledge that this issue has united all the parties in Northern Ireland, including Sinn Fein, the Alliance party and the Social Democratic and Labour party. I am sure that he will agree that what makes Northern Ireland, with its one remaining coastguard, strategically different from the rest of the UK is the fact that it shares a land frontier with the Republic of Ireland. The co-operation between the Irish coastguard and the Northern Ireland coastguard is second to none—it is first-rate. I am sure that that point is not lost on the Minister and that he acknowledges it.

[Mike Penning]

indicated assent.

[Lady Hermon]

I thank the Minister for acknowledging that point.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the hon. Lady for her contribution, which is very honest.

The hon. Lady and I, with the SDLP and the Alliance party, met some coastguard officials, and the meeting was excellent. I know that the Minister met the First Minister, Peter Robinson, and the Deputy First Minister, Martin McGuinness. We have come a long way in Northern Ireland. We crossed that divide a long time ago, and I want the Minister to know that we have moved on. It is great that we can have an issue that unites us all.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the Minister for that intervention.

To move on slightly, there is also the issue of helicopter taskings in Northern Ireland, which includes the police and ambulance services. This is also a major issue in the Republic of Ireland, where helicopters for air-sea rescue are provided at no charge. The relationship that has been built between the Bangor station and its counterparts in the Republic would not be the same without those interpersonal dynamics. The Minister must agree that if we lost the help and support of the Republic, and the manner in which it is offered at present, that would most certainly result in loss of life. That is my concern.

We are encouraging people to holiday in Northern Ireland to take advantage of the most beautiful scenery the UK has to offer. I will take the opportunity to give a sales pitch for my area. We want people to enjoy the Fermanagh lakes and to make the most of all that the stunning Strangford lough and the north Down coast have to offer, yet we also face telling people that the reality is that if they get into trouble, the rescue will have to be co-ordinated on the mainland before anything is done on the ground. That is another concern that I must express today.

The consultation further proposes that either Liverpool or ourselves cover both regions with 50% fewer staff than Bangor employs now. I pay tribute to the coastguard staff. They do an excellent job, and we are very encouraged by what they do, but how could this be achieved without there being some shortfall in that area of the service? It could mean the extra five minutes between life and death. The matter involves not only the fact that Northern Ireland must have its own service provision, but how we ensure that we have the ability to save lives and to do that better.

I mean no disrespect, but if a distressed child had to ring an operator in Scotland to say that their dad had fallen out of their dinghy near the big rock on the Portaferry road, Newtownards, would the operator know where that was? No, they would not. I could take them there right now, but that is because I know the area. We have that local knowledge. Every Member who has spoken so far has mentioned local knowledge. Could an operator in Scotland give an accurate account of where to send the rescue service? They could not possibly do that because they do not have local knowledge. Ask someone in Bangor coastguard the same question and the answer would be immediate, and so would the response.

Bangor dealt with more than 700 incidents last year, and it is clear that on our seas we need a dedicated service that knows the area and knows best how to organise the rescue. At Bangor station in the past four years, the number of rescues is up, the number of people involved is up and the number of lives saved is up. Unfortunately—it is the nature of life—the number of those who have been injured or lost their lives is also up. This is about extra usage, but it is also about the response from the Bangor station.

People in Northern Ireland waters should not be put at risk by a budget. The wives of fishermen at sea need to have their minds put at ease. They depend on the coastguard system, which they have come to know and trust. It is a system that has saved hundreds of lives and must be retained. What is being offered is not the best, and Northern Ireland Members must keep pushing until the constituencies we represent get what they deserve—the very best coastguard service from a local station with local people and local knowledge. We are unique in Northern Ireland in that the coastguard also helps with mountain rescues, and that specialised service must also continue and be co-ordinated by those who have been doing the job for years and know the intricacies of the system, which saves lives.

There comes a time when we must focus on our own areas, and I would like to do so for a few seconds. As Members of Parliament, the hon. Member for North Down and I are fighting for the right things for all coastguard stations, but I must highlight the bonuses of the station that covers my area of Strangford. The majority of staff there are young and highly qualified. Numerous members of the Bangor station are trainers in different areas, and they provide training not only to the UK mainland, but to the Republic of Ireland. They are excellent staff, who would have to up sticks and relocate to the mainland if the proposals were accepted. Many of those with young families could not do that, and I must speak on their behalf as well.

As I have said on a number of occasions, I continuously fight against the “brain drain” from Northern Ireland—if I may use that terminology, which may not be entirely appropriate for this topic. Our students attend university on the mainland and end up living there or going where the jobs are. The difference here is that losing the high-quality staff we have in Bangor will have a detrimental effect on the coastguard as a whole.

[Lady Hermon]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for taking a second intervention. I invite him to say something to the Members gathered here today for this important debate about the alternative proposals submitted to the Minister by the coastguard in Bangor. They are very thoughtful and not self-seeking or necessarily confined to Northern Ireland, but address modernisation and building resilience throughout the whole UK. We are part of the UK and we want to play our part.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. She must have read my mind, or she has been reading my notes, because that is the next thing I am coming to.

[Lady Hermon]

I cannot read your writing.

[Jim Shannon]

Nobody can read it.

The Minister and the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland were in Northern Ireland on 9 March. The Minister said earlier that that proposal—option B—was a breath of fresh air. I am not misquoting him; those were his words, and we welcome them. That perhaps indicates an understanding and an acceptance that there has to be change. We accept that. We are not in the business of saying that we are against everything all the time. We are trying to be positive in our comments.

We have an alternative and it has been put forward. It is not just a suggestion for Bangor; it is for all—for Swansea, for Humber, for London, for Aberdeen and for Dover. The proposals would help all Members here and all the areas we represent. That is what this is about. I feel that the proposals are very worthy of consideration, which perhaps shows our commitment to finding a solution.

I am conscious that time is flying on, so I will conclude. I stand today and urge the Minister fully to consider the proposals presented to him on 9 March. The proposals outline how every area—from the tip of Scotland to the bottom of Dover, and from the Shetland islands to the Fermanagh lakes—would achieve adequate cover and make the most of the experience of the staff at the major locations. It is my belief, and the sincere belief of many, that the retention of Bangor coastguard is an essential aspect of any proposal. The Minister and his Department should accept that and take it into account in response to the consultation document.

I have a six-point diagram on the proposals. It is a bit like a double Presbyterian sermon, in that a Presbyterian sermon has three points and this has six, and focuses on the strategy, which is cost-effective. That is one of the issues. It also focuses on the structure, which would be more successful through the roll-out and upon completion because it would enable the system to continue. The processes would retain possibilities for the future and on how best to do things. The people involved would have their motivation and good will enhanced, and the staff, who made the proposals and who want to work with the Minister and all of us as elected representatives, would be rewarded. That would mean safer lives, safer ships and cleaner seas.

I stand by the coastguard station in Bangor. I stand by the alternative proposals and urge that every consideration be given, not only to the issues raised here this afternoon, but to the proposals made by the people who know what they are talking about, who co-ordinate rescues every day and who can tell what will work and what will not. I would listen to them, as they co-ordinate rescues at sea; the hon. Member for North Down and I had the opportunity to do that down at Bangor coastguard. I would listen to them, as they seek to co-ordinate a better UK-wide coastguard service. I ask the Minister to do the same.

Coastguard Service

Lady Hermon Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd February 2011 Westminster Hall

[Sarah Newton]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention, but I think it best to leave it to the Minister to answer that question, as he has experience of the impact of regionalisation of the fire service.

I reassure the House that every coastguard I have spoken to has said that the service needs modernisation. The maritime environment is changing fast in many ways. Commercial ships are getting bigger and are less manoeuvrable, and we have more drilling rigs and offshore installations such as wind farms, not to mention the growth in privately owned pleasure craft. The shipping lanes around our shores are more congested and our climate is changing, with more unpredictable and volatile weather. The result is that the seas are becoming more hazardous. Many more people are participating in water sports of all kinds, and millions visit our coastline. They all need a modern coastguard service.

[Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind)]

I congratulate the hon. Lady most sincerely on securing this debate. In Northern Ireland we have an unusual, indeed unique, set of circumstances. The one remaining coastguard is based at Bangor in my constituency. As well as looking after maritime emergencies, it is responsible for inland stretches of water, including the huge area of Lough Neagh and Lough Erne. It is also the only officially designated coastguard in the UK nominated by the Irish Government to act in the event of an emergency off the Donegal coast.

[Sarah Newton]

I thank the hon. Lady for her contribution.

I am reassured by the commitment given by the chief executive of the MCA, Vice-Admiral Sir Alan Massey. He said that he will evaluate what people have to say, including what is said here today. I appreciate the fact that he is able to be here to listen to our debate. He said that

“all those with an interest in what we do and how we do it will take this opportunity”

to be part of the consultation process. I am reassured by that, and his presence here today underlines that commitment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) on securing the debate.

My constituency of South Down in Northern Ireland plays host to two of the three fishing ports in Northern Ireland, and as a community we share a long, proud and sometimes difficult history of fishing and seafaring.

Over the years, my constituency has seen its share of tragedies and miraculous rescues at sea. Each time—whether it has been to bring family members’ bodies home from the sea or to undertake those miraculous rescues—we have looked to our coastguard, which has always performed an amazing service.

In Northern Ireland, the Bangor coastguard station, which is located in the constituency of the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon), faces possible closure. There is a proposal to transfer its operational role to another station, perhaps in Liverpool or Aberdeen, many miles away. Hon. Members will be aware that opposition to the consultation proposals is mounting, and I hope that the Minister will allay many of the concerns that have been raised.

[Lady Hermon]

Let me tell hon. Members, and particularly the Minister, that it is rare for any subject to unite all the parties in Northern Ireland. We are talking about saving the one remaining coastguard in Northern Ireland, which is the only part of the United Kingdom that risks losing its coastguard service. I extended an invitation to the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to make a joint visit to the station, and I am delighted to say that both accepted it warmly. The First Minister is from the Democratic Unionist party, the Deputy First Minister is from Sinn Fein and the hon. Lady is a member of the Social Democratic and Labour party, so this issue has united all parties. I hope that the Minister remembers that.

[Mr Mike Hancock (in the Chair)]

Order. Sylvia, you have a lot of charm, but you are pushing it to extremes.

[Lady Hermon]

Thank you, Mr Hancock. I take that as a compliment.

[Mr Mike Hancock (in the Chair)]

Yes, it is a compliment. Only you would have got away with that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mike Penning]

I will make some progress and, if there is time, I will take interventions. However, there have been a lot of interventions during the debate and I think my hon. Friend—I call him that because I know him very well—has done very well at getting in. Colleagues might want to listen to the Minister a bit now.

Interestingly enough, I do not know what those nine stations are. I hope—the hon. Member for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson) was present when it was said in his constituency and I met the coastguards there—that some proposals are made to us. Proposals in some shape or form, not dissimilar to those we have been discussing, have been on the table for a considerable time—before I became the Minister; when the shadow Minister had the role. The chief coastguard has been in the role for two years. He said to Back Benchers yesterday that the proposal was on the table when he arrived two years ago.

The debate is about: where, how many, resilience and how we take this into the 21st century. As much as there is expertise in, passion for, dedication to and, in some cases, love for the coastguard service, it is not a 21st century service. If we try to say, “It’s okay. We could each individually save our coastguard station,” we are not doing the service justice. We have to make progress.

There is a debate about the matter, and when I first looked at the list, there was certainly a discussion on which stations would close, which would go to part-time working and which would be made into larger hub stations—the national resilience stations. The hon. Member for Sefton Central is absolutely right: Liverpool was listed for closure. I apologise, if it is not technically Liverpool, but it is Liverpool on the paper. I said, “No. It is a very balanced argument between Belfast and Liverpool.” We will look at that matter.

[Lady Hermon]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mike Penning]

No, I will not give way because I did not do so before. I looked again at Scotland, where there was a similar situation. We looked at the document and inserted the other stations, so that we could balance the two that I mentioned.

Let me discuss what we are proposing and what we have got now. I have heard some passionate contributions from hon. Members who represent areas from all over the country. What is great about having this post is that the subject with which I deal is not devolved; it is about the United Kingdom, complete and in its entirety. It is about the protection of the fleet, of people on holiday and of communities, whether people are visiting the community or not. Let us consider what we have today. I shall use one classic example and look at Belfast, which is the only station in Northern Ireland. That station is paired with Clyde. If Belfast—Bangor station—goes down, where is all that knowledge and information, which is mostly stored in people’s heads, not on paper? It is lost. If we have a power cut or resilience problems, the station that the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) represents is paired with Clyde. After listening to the hon. Lady’s arguments, with the best will in the world, Clyde does not have that knowledge. Why? Because that knowledge is trapped in Belfast and in Northern Ireland. The same applies to Falmouth, Brixham and the Humber.