Winter Fuel Payment

Joe Robertson Excerpts

Wednesday 19th March 2025 Commons Chamber

[Joe Robertson (Isle of Wight East) (Con)]

Does the hon. Lady really think that going through Tony Blair’s greatest hits is any comfort to pensioners on £13,500 who lost their winter fuel payment in 2024?

[Louise Jones]

I thank the hon. Member for his comment. It is important to stress that this was a policy that the Labour party brought in, and the Conservative party voted against it at the time. The inheritance that this Government got from the previous Government was so dire—we really cannot forget how big a black hole £22 billion is. The economic situation of this country as a whole, and the finances that the Government inherited, meant that even the Labour party knew we had to make tough choices that we would never had made if we had had the inheritance we gave to the Conservatives in 2010.

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[Josh Simons]

I do. I believe in laying out the argument, and once I have done so, in a couple of minutes, the right hon. Gentleman will be welcome to intervene. That, I think, is partly what the House is for.

After the announcement of this policy, I immediately entered into a partnership with Wigan Council to ensure that every pensioner I represent who is eligible for pension credit and help from the household support fund receives every single penny for which they are eligible. I made it clear to my constituents that I would not rest until my most vulnerable pensioners are protected. In recent months, Wigan council’s fantastic income maximisation team have secured almost £8 million in benefits that would not otherwise have been paid to Wiganers. I have invited the team to all the coffee mornings that I host with residents every month, and these alone have secured tens of thousands of pounds in benefits for the people I represent. I have encountered much the same story again and again. So many pensioners were convinced that they were not eligible for pension credit because they had never received a penny of benefit in their lives, and so many did not know about the household support fund, but it turned out that they were eligible. Opposition Members never wanted them to receive this benefit, but we have made sure that they get what they need and deserve.

[Joe Robertson]

It is heartwarming to hear someone make a speech based on his principles, and the hon. Gentleman has made it clear that it is his principles that will inform his vote on this topic. Can he articulate, very clearly, what principle tells him that someone on £13,500 is too rich to receive a winter fuel payment?

[Josh Simons]

If the hon. Gentleman will allow me a few more minutes, I will come to the exact question of the threshold at which pension credit is awarded and at which, therefore, someone is eligible for the winter fuel payment.

In order to reach the most vulnerable people, who are often the hardest to reach because they are not on Facebook and are not coming to my coffee mornings, I wrote to more than 5,000 pensioners to ensure that they received the support they deserved.

Let me end by making a broader point. Today’s debate has underscored a simple truth about Conservative Members. Theirs is no longer the party with the strength and courage to lead, whether in asserting the sovereignty of this place or in making arguments with principle.

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[Mark Ferguson]

I would, and here’s why: when there are difficult decisions to be taken, we cannot shirk from them. When the Government shirk from those decisions, they end up with the grotesque chaos of entering a general election having accrued £22 billion of expenditure that there has not been sufficient allocation for, which is why someone else has to pick up the pieces.

[Joe Robertson]

The hon. Gentleman looks almost proud of the decision to withdraw winter fuel payments. He talks about taking tough decisions—can I offer him a really easy alternative? Scrap GB Energy, which does not produce any energy; do not give Mauritius money and sovereign British territory; and restore the winter fuel payment.

[Mark Ferguson]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his talking points from Conservative campaign headquarters —they have been very much received on this side of the House. I do not relish having to take money away from anyone. It is one of the most difficult decisions that any of us will take. I hope that all of us in all parts of the House—every single person here—believes they are doing what is best for their constituents. I believe that every single Member on the Opposition Benches believes that what they are doing is best for their constituents. I do not believe that what they are doing is best for my constituents, but those are arguments I dare say we will continue to have vigorously over the next four years in this place.

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[Matthew Patrick]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. There is incredible uptake under this Government because we want to see the poorest pensioners access the support they are entitled to.

[Joe Robertson]

Will the hon. Gentleman take my intervention?

[Matthew Patrick]

I will, but I have a very neat point and so the hon. Gentleman will appreciate why I will not take his intervention right now. The hon. Member for Farnham and Bordon (Gregory Stafford) said it is not all about people quaffing champagne, but one Conservative councillor lambasted me for the decision and for taking away his champagne money. I do not think it can be right for public money to be used in that way while the pressures on vulnerable pensioners and working people are so great.

[Matthew Patrick]

I will take interventions in a moment. Hon. Members have mentioned those who are just above the threshold. They will therefore share my relief that this Government have put hundreds of millions of pounds into the household support fund, which can help those worried about their bills if they are just below the threshold. I will give way to the hon. Member for Isle of Wight East (Joe Robertson) first and then to the right hon. Member for Salisbury (John Glen).

[Joe Robertson]

I thank the hon. Member for finally giving way. He has won his campaign to remove the winter fuel payment from Sir Richard Branson, but if I take him back a little earlier in his speech, he paints a picture of the sorry state that he claims this country was in when he took over. Just let us suppose that and run with his argument, which he must believe: why does he think now is the time to also take away the winter fuel payment?

[Matthew Patrick]

The hon. Gentleman uses the words “suppose” and “sorry state”. It is no wonder Conservative Members lost; they were in total denial about their failure for this country. Now is the right time to end the status quo, end the incessant decline under the Conservatives and put a huge amount of investment back into our NHS. I, for one, am proud that we have had five months of falling waiting times. I want Conservative Members to welcome such good news for our NHS—news that helps all the people in this country.

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[Joe Robertson (Isle of Wight East) (Con)]

The flavour and mood of this debate have been somewhat strange. I expected to be in a debate facing Members on the Government Benches who were at least showing humility, and who at least, in the words they chose, showed that they regretted the decision, even though they reluctantly supported it. But that is not the mood we have faced at all. Government Members have been bullish. We have heard the word “proud”. They have been jovial and, at times, even upbeat in describing this very worst decision of this Government of bad decisions, and pensioners will have heard them. Labour Members may have impressed each other, and they may have impressed the trade unions of which they are members, by talking about and defending train drivers’ pay, but they will have deeply depressed, and depressed further, those pensioners who live in their constituencies, in my constituency and right across Britain.

My hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State took us through the issues caused by withdrawing the winter fuel payment, and she made the central argument that has been repeated from these Benches: they are withdrawing the winter fuel payment not from the wealthy, but from those on as little as £13,500.

[Max Wilkinson (Cheltenham) (LD)]

My constituent Jean told me that she is now washing in cold water as a result of this measure. She is one of those people right on the cusp. She might also be concerned by comments from the Leader of the Opposition about the potential means-testing of the triple lock after the next election, if the Conservatives are in government. Will the hon. Gentleman offer Jean reassurance that there will not be an even longer winter if the Government were to change next time?

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[Joe Robertson]

I am grateful to the hon. Member for giving me the opportunity to talk about means-testing— I did not expect to have that Government argument made by a Liberal Democrat Member, but so be it. There is some sympathy, from across the House, for the argument for means-testing the winter fuel payment, but I assure the hon. Gentleman that nobody on the Conservative Benches thinks that the means-testing cut-off point, if they believe in one, should be £13,500. That means that 10 million pensioners have lost out on the winter fuel payment. Unless the Government can make a fiscal argument for removing winter fuel payments from the very wealthy that actually delivers more funds to the Treasury, this decision should not have been taken at all, and should certainly not have been taken when it harms those on a fixed income of very little.

[Luke Murphy]

The motion talks about ensuring that

“those eligible for Pension Credit receive it”.

To return to the point I made earlier, if Conservative Members were so concerned about vulnerable pensioners, why was there absolutely no movement in the take-up of pension credit under the previous Government? Some 700,000 pensioners are eligible for pension credit, but I do not remember a big campaign on that by the previous Government that made a difference—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Caroline Nokes)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman’s intervention is far too long.

[Joe Robertson]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for drawing attention to his own Government’s promise to increase the take-up of pension credit. After the past winter, there are still 750,000 pensioners who have not taken it up, so he should not speak with any pride or seek to deflect to previous Governments when his own Government have withdrawn the winter fuel payment and there are still 750,000 eligible pensioners who are not receiving pension credit.

[Luke Murphy]

On that point, will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Joe Robertson]

I am sorry, but in the time remaining I cannot take another intervention from the hon. Gentleman.

Without the winter fuel payment, over the winter we have seen a 5% increase in the number of people aged over 65 attending A&E, and of those who have attended A&E, there has been a 9% increase in hospital admission. The motion seeks a proper impact assessment and analysis by the Government of the effects of winter fuel payments being withdrawn. This was not a one-off winter, and it was a warmer winter than average. The same will happen next winter, the following winter and the winter after that, unless the Government bring back the fuel payment.

[Matthew Patrick]

The hon. Member stated that he believes in means-testing the winter fuel allowance, so at what level does he believe that eligibility should be set?

[Joe Robertson]

There are Members across the House who would support the principle of means-testing, and I have invited the Government to come forward with the data that shows us where the bar would be set to bring money into the Treasury. However, I would reject any means-testing that takes money away from those paid £13,500.

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[Andrew Western]

I dispute the right hon. Lady’s statistics. She is right to highlight that there has been an increase in hospital admissions among over-65s, but that is entirely in line with the statistics for people entering hospital in other age cohorts. That is actually a result of the collapse of the NHS on the Conservatives’ watch, which means that A&E is the only option for so many people.

As I was saying, as a first step at the autumn Budget, the Government announced a £22.6 billion increase in day-to-day health spending in England and a £3.1 billion increase in the capital budget over this year and the next. But we know that even with our long-term efforts to rebuild critical public services, pensioner poverty is a very real concern.

[Joe Robertson]

Will the Minister give way?

[Andrew Western]

I will make some progress first.

There will always be those who, for whatever reason, have been unable to make sufficient provision for their retirement. The benefit system provides a vital safety net for those on low incomes who need support the most. This, of course, includes help through pension credit, worth on average £4,300 a year and which tops up income, as well as unlocking access to additional support and benefits. We know there are still low-income pensioners who are not claiming pension credit but are eligible to do so and we want everyone to get the support to which they are entitled. That is why, since September, we have been running the biggest ever pension take-up campaign. Around 1.4 million pensioner households receive pension credit, but too many have been missing out. Thanks to our campaign, we have seen 235,000 pension credit applications in the 30 weeks since the end of July last year, an 81% increase on the comparable period in 2023-24. That has led to almost 50,000 extra awards over the same period.

Support for Pensioners

Joe Robertson Excerpts

Wednesday 12th February 2025 Westminster Hall

[Blake Stephenson]

I absolutely agree with my right hon. Friend, and I will come on to the importance of certainty and stability when it comes to pensions, so that people can plan for their futures, regardless of their age. For the Government to pull the rug out from under the feet of vulnerable pensioners with little or no notice at all is absolutely shameful.

Gary has seen the Government that he voted for with hope and optimism for a better life snatch away the lifeline he relied on. If he is on the old basic state pension, he will have seen 86.5% of his triple lock-backed increase snatched back. Indeed, he could well find that it will take until 2027-28 for his income to reach the level that he might have expected to see this winter.

Gary is not alone, because although this Government talk about millionaire pensioners being able to cope, for many of the 9.2 million pensioners losing their winter fuel payment, that really was vital support. The average pensioner, far from being the millionaire fat cat that the Government would like us all to imagine, earns just over £22,000 per year—similar to the income of a worker on the living wage. The level at which the threshold to keep winter fuel payments was set for a single pensioner means that someone could be bringing in less than £1,000 per month and now be one of the “millionaire pensioners” on whose shoulders the Government have chosen to balance the books.

Age UK estimates that 2.5 million pensioners living in poverty or just above the poverty line, including 1.1 million pensioners with a disability, will lose their winter fuel payment. I have heard so many stories from constituents in Mid Bedfordshire about the impact that that will have on them—stories of people who have had to make the stark choice between heating and eating this winter. I heard from a constituent who now cannot shower, who cooks a hot meal just once a week, and who can turn on their heating only when it is “unbearably freezing”. One constituent told me of the struggles to keep their 92-year-old father warm. Their father has dementia, and he keeps worrying about the bills.

[Joe Robertson (Isle of Wight East) (Con)]

My hon. Friend mentions dementia. Nearly 1 million pensioners in this country are living with dementia. Two weeks ago, NHS England published its priorities, and dementia had been removed, as had the target for diagnosing it. Does he agree that that is a huge concern, not only for those living with dementia, but for the millions of family members and friends who support them?

[Blake Stephenson]

I know that my hon. Friend cares passionately for people living with dementia and their families, and he makes a very important point. It is another shameful decision by this Government not to support the most vulnerable in our society, and people should be shocked by it.

Another constituent told me that they have stopped using their cooker and that they now find it difficult even to dry their washing. This Government promised that they would be on the side of pensioners. However, as a constituent recently summed it up for me, they feel

“terribly let down by the Government”.

They are right to feel like that. This Government have let my constituents—indeed, all our pensioners—down. They have balanced the books on the backs of people earning less than £1,000 per month. Even if someone is still eligible for winter fuel payments, they will get them only if they have signed up for pension credit.

The arbitrary barrier of the pension credit threshold will mean that many of our poorest pensioners—Age UK estimates that around 1 million people have weekly incomes of less than £50 above the poverty line—will not receive their winter fuel payment this winter. Potentially hundreds of thousands of even poorer pensioners will miss out on vital support, because the Government expect them to answer over 200 questions—two hundred questions—to access the help they need.

Perhaps I am being unfair.

Carer’s Allowance

Joe Robertson Excerpts

Wednesday 16th October 2024 Commons Chamber

[Joe Robertson (Isle of Wight East) (Con)]

I support the sentiment that we need more funding and support for carers—more finance, more money—but the email the hon. Lady read out powerfully showed that it is not just money that carers need. They need much broader support to give respite and relief, and to allow them to address their own mental health concerns that arise from their job, as well as support to stay in education longer, as she mentioned. Although money is important, does she agree that carers need the much wider community support that charities and other local groups can give?

[Rebecca Long Bailey]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. Unfortunately, the ability of local authorities to reach out to carers who are struggling and directly offer them the respite care they should be entitled to has been hampered, certainly in the past 10 to 14 years. The burden of stepping in has been left to many charities. For those who live in an area with a large charitable presence, that is fantastic, but unfortunately not a lot of unpaid carers live in such areas. That is an issue that the Government must grapple with.

Another brutal issue, which is relatively unknown, is that of pensions. As far as I am aware, carer’s allowance does not get paid to those in receipt of the state pension, unless the state pension amount is lower than the weekly value of carer’s allowance. As with the pension credit threshold, at the moment a huge number of people are just over the cusp of eligibility; they live in poverty but cannot access the help they need.

There is another brutal loophole for pensioners receiving care. The Government website currently states:

“When you get Carer’s Allowance, the person you care for will usually stop getting: a severe disability premium paid with their benefits”

or

“an extra amount for severe disability paid with Pension Credit”.

That left one of my constituents, whose daughter provides care but does not live with her, in a situation where she is not entitled to the top-up in pension credit that she should be entitled to, which she needs to survive and to deal with her daily living costs as a severely disabled person.

I wanted to highlight those points, but I will bring my comments to a close as many colleagues want to speak. I welcome the encouraging comments made by my hon. Friends on the Government Front Bench. I encourage them to address the loopholes that have been mentioned urgently and, as I am sure they are doing already, to encourage action from the Chancellor at the upcoming Budget, so that we can provide the financial and social support our unpaid carers desperately need.