Winter Fuel Payment

Louise Jones Excerpts

Wednesday 19th March 2025 Commons Chamber

[Louise Jones (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)]

Before I begin, will the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Helen Whately), clarify her earlier comments? Does she not support pay rises for the armed forces? [Interruption.] She is more than welcome to clarify; I can see that she looks a bit confused.

[Helen Whately]

The hon. Lady asks about something that I have never said, so I was surprised to hear it.

[Louise Jones]

I very much thank the hon. Lady for those comments. I know she vociferously criticised pay rises for public sector workers in her speech, so I am glad to have clarified that.

The winter fuel payment was a policy that the Labour Government introduced in 1997, and it stands as one of the great achievements of that Labour Administration. When it was brought in, pensioner poverty was significantly higher than what we face today, and it made a real difference to many pensioners who were struggling with heating, eating, and many other living costs. Along with many things that that Government achieved, we had the shortest NHS waiting times in history, we brought crime down, and we created Sure Start, which made a difference to many young people’s lives. We had record results in schools, we introduced the Disability Discrimination Act 2005, and we brought in the first ever Climate Change Act in 2008. All those things made a huge difference to the lives of people in this country, in particular pensioners.

[Joe Robertson (Isle of Wight East) (Con)]

Does the hon. Lady really think that going through Tony Blair’s greatest hits is any comfort to pensioners on £13,500 who lost their winter fuel payment in 2024?

[Louise Jones]

I thank the hon. Member for his comment. It is important to stress that this was a policy that the Labour party brought in, and the Conservative party voted against it at the time. The inheritance that this Government got from the previous Government was so dire—we really cannot forget how big a black hole £22 billion is. The economic situation of this country as a whole, and the finances that the Government inherited, meant that even the Labour party knew we had to make tough choices that we would never had made if we had had the inheritance we gave to the Conservatives in 2010.

[Julia Lopez (Hornchurch and Upminster) (Con)]

Does the hon. Lady accept that there is a real problem with Labour’s framing of its choices? Labour Members have made out that there is an absolute necessity to get rid of the winter fuel payment, but at the same time they are spending £8 million on GB Energy. They are spending God knows how much on the Chagos islands—they will not tell us—and hundreds of millions on pay rises for train drivers. Does she accept that the pensioners find it rather confusing that there is a complete necessity to cut winter fuel payments, when the Government are splurging cash on all manner of other weird projects?

[Louise Jones]

One reason why I decided to get into politics—I was quite happy doing something else—was because I was looking around this country and seeing the huge systemic issues that were facing us. None of those issues would go away if the Government just said, “We’re going to keep giving out pots of money to people,” and the hon. Lady knows that. As a proud member of the Labour party, I support people receiving fair pay for their fair work, and I support the rises that we gave to our nurses, our soldiers and our teachers. I am very proud of that. We face so many systemic issues that we know we need to make some big changes. Things such as GB Energy, which was in our manifesto that millions of people voted for, is a huge change that will make a difference.

[Oliver Ryan (Burnley) (Ind)]

My hon. Friend talks about manifesto commitments, and it was a clear manifesto commitment of this Government that we would provide the triple lock throughout this Parliament—something that was only ever suspended under the Conservative party. Does she agree that the £1,500 increase to the state pension that pensioners will see over the course of this Parliament will be a good thing, and put cash into the pockets of pensioners that they did not have under the previous Government?

[Louise Jones]

My hon. Friend is exactly right. The triple lock is a serious commitment that we are utterly committed to, and it will make a difference to every single pensioner in this country—far more than trying to pretend that we do not face the systemic problems that this country faces.

[Saqib Bhatti]

Will the hon. Member give way?

[Louise Jones]

I was going to go back to GB Energy, but why not?

[Saqib Bhatti]

The hon. Member is being very generous with interventions. She talked about fairness in pay. Those pensioners also worked all through their lives and also deserve fairness. What is fair about the hundreds of millions being given to train drivers as opposed to what has been taken away from pensioners? What is fair about the £18 billion, or whatever the figure is, being spent on the Chagos islands, compared with what pensioners deserve?

[Louise Jones]

What is fair is a 4.1% rise in the state pension and a 5.5% to 6% rise for our soldiers, teachers and nurses, and I will say that as many times as I need to say it.

Many people in this country have been grappling with skyrocketing energy bills, which have caused real poverty. Those bills have skyrocketed largely because we are at the mercy of international markets, so it is vital that we take back sovereign control of our energy and energy prices, and GB Energy is a vital part of that.

[Harriet Cross]

The interim chief executive officer of GB Energy has said that reducing energy bills

“is not in the remit of GB Energy”,

so how is GB Energy going to help with energy bills?

[Louise Jones]

GB Energy will turbocharge renewables across the country. Once we have that, we will have more control over our energy systems and, as the hon. Lady knows, we will have control over what happens with bills.

[Melanie Ward]

My hon. Friend mentions GB Energy, which is headquartered in Scotland. I note that there is a Scottish National party Member in the Chamber, the hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Kirsty Blackman), who I am sure will shortly make a passionate speech about the issue. When she does so, I hope she will remember that the winter fuel payment is already devolved to the Scottish Government and that if they want to follow a different policy, they are able to, perhaps using some the additional funding—record funding of almost £5 billion extra—that they got in the Budget this year.

[Louise Jones]

I wholeheartedly agree with my hon. Friend. I will now turn to a quote—[Interruption.] I hope Opposition Members will settle down. The quote states:

“we will look at Winter Fuel Payments, the largest benefit paid to pensioners, in this context. The benefit is paid regardless of need, giving money to wealthier pensioners when working people on lower incomes do not get similar support. So we will means-test Winter Fuel Payments, focusing assistance on the least well-off pensioners, who are most at risk of fuel poverty.”

Does the shadow Secretary of State recognise that quote? No, and the right hon. Member for Melton and Syston (Edward Argar) does not appear to recognise it either. It is taken directly from the 2017 Conservative party manifesto, which I understand both Members stood on. Would they like to stand up now and say whether they regret doing so?

[Lewis Cocking]

Last July, the hon. Lady stood on an election manifesto that did not include the removal of winter fuel payments to pensioners. Is she proud of the fact that she was elected on a manifesto that said something completely different from what she is supporting the Government in doing now?

--- Later in debate ---

[Louise Jones]

I am fully committed to bringing forward all our manifesto commitments, including the triple lock for pensioners, fixing the systemic issues facing the country and tackling the backlog in the NHS. Our record is something to be proud of so far.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Louise Jones]

We can carry on with our history lesson—[Interruption.] I am sorry, does the right hon. Member for Herne Bay and Sandwich (Sir Roger Gale) wish to intervene?

[Sir Roger Gale]

I intervene simply to inform the hon. Lady that it was David Cameron who introduced the triple lock.

[Louise Jones]

I believe it was then suspended, but I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his intervention. In his earlier remarks, he raised the valid point that no Member of this House should be receiving the winter fuel payment, and he spoke about the very poorest in this country facing that payment being taken away. We have protected the very poorest pensioners, but whenever there is a threshold, there will always be people who fall on the other side of it. I and my colleagues have been very aware of people coming to us who need us to help them find alternative sources of help.

[Dame Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con)]

rose—

[Gregory Stafford (Farnham and Bordon) (Con)]

rose—

[Louise Jones]

I will just make a bit of progress and then I will let the right hon. Member and the hon. Member intervene. I do not think there is a single Labour Member who is not conscious of the impact of the decisions that we, as a Government, are making. We rightly laud our achievements, but we recognise that we have had to make tough decisions.

Pensioners are not the only group facing poverty in this country. Child poverty has rocketed over the past decade to a shamefully high level. Not one of those children ever received a winter fuel payment. Plenty of others have been facing the effects of poverty, and shamefully that includes a rocketing number of people in work. As a Labour Government, it is our task to ensure that we are ending the scourge of poverty once and for all, whether for children, people in work or pensioners.

[Mike Martin (Tunbridge Wells) (LD)]

Is one of the main causes of child poverty not the two-child benefit cap that the Conservative party introduced and the Labour party is continuing?

[Louise Jones]

Child poverty and the two-child benefit cap are unfortunately sad signs of the legacy that we have inherited. We need to fix the foundations of the economy so that we can start to take measures such as that that may have an impact. We have set up the child poverty taskforce so that we can start to look at that and ensure we make a real and significant difference over the next few years. We have inherited a shameful situation, and we are working very hard to do what we can to change it.

I turn to the triple lock, which I and other hon. Members have spoken about. The commitment to the triple lock is pivotal; it will see the state pension of thousands of people, including people in my constituency, increase by more than £470 this year. Additionally, as a Government we have run a campaign to increase the uptake of pension credit, meaning that we have had an 81% increase in claims, which is good to see. We have also extended the household support fund, so that help is available for all age groups.

[Ben Obese-Jecty (Huntingdon) (Con)]

I appreciate the hon. Member referring to pension credit uptake. If all the people who are eligible to take up pension credit do so, how much will it cost the Government?

[Louise Jones]

The costings take into account the uplift in the numbers of people claiming pension credit, as they are entitled to do.

[Josh MacAlister (Whitehaven and Workington) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the changes made to the winter fuel payment to secure it for those most in need actually save £1 billion net, with the extra costs of the rise in those claiming pension credit? Does she also agree that the Government’s choices across the board mean that we are able to make the decision to protect the triple lock, nearly double the warm home discount and get the NHS back on its feet? It is pretty shocking that we have so far not heard one example of how the Conservative party would make different choices to do those same things.

[Louise Jones]

Sadly, it is a feature of this debate that it is very easy for Members across the Opposition Benches to say, “You shouldn’t do something,” but very difficult to say what should be done instead.

[Gregory Stafford]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Louise Jones]

I will keep going, because I have been speaking for a long time and I know that lots of Members want to get in. I am terribly sorry.

To cut to the chase, the Government are determined to fix the foundations of this country, sort out the systemic issues that we face, tackle the cost of living and deliver an NHS fit for everybody in this country.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alberto Costa]

I am afraid that the hon. Member misses the point. The whole point of this debate is to acknowledge that there are poorer and vulnerable people in our society, and that we kept the winter fuel payment precisely to ensure that the most vulnerable pensioners in our society were assisted. What we have heard from Labour party Members—the very Labour party Members who said during the election that they cared for the most vulnerable and the poorest in society—reminds of a comment that they once made about the Conservative party. If there is any nasty party, the removal of the winter fuel payment and the total absence of Labour MPs in the Chamber is proof positive that there is only one nasty party today: the Labour party.

Some of my constituents voted at the last general election for a Labour party that promised to help working people and promised to be the party for the weakest in society. At no point did any of my constituents who put a cross next to the South Leicestershire Labour party candidate think that a Labour Government would remove the winter fuel payment, yet they did that within weeks of taking office. At the same time, they cruelly increased salaries for those who did not require increases. The train drivers were demanding exorbitant salary increases, which the Conservatives resisted when in government. The new Labour Government capitulated, taking money from those who needed it—the most vulnerable in society—and giving it to those who did not need it. That was a betrayal of the British electorate, when the Labour party said it had the most vulnerable people in mind.

[Louise Jones]

Will the hon. Member confirm that he opposes pay rises for the armed forces?

[Alberto Costa]

The hon. Lady has raised that point already and erroneously said that my hon. Friend the Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Helen Whately) had misspoken. The only person who has misspoken this afternoon, and continues to do so, is the hon. Lady. The Conservatives have been very clear. Last year, when the Labour Government chose to give train drivers an exorbitant pay increase, we highlighted that that was a poor decision precisely because it had a negative impact on the most vulnerable in society, the very people we are speaking about today—pensioners.