State Pension Reform

Jane Ellison Excerpts

Monday 14th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Steve Webb]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for what I would characterise as his broadly constructive response to my remarks. I welcomed his comment on the television this morning that

“the Labour party supports the principle of a flat-rate state pension”.

I welcome that because pensions are for the long term, and with two coalition parties united in support for this reform and support in principle from the official Opposition, we have a chance of stability in pensions policy, which would be good for all.

The hon. Gentleman says that the Government have form on pensions, and that is a fair cop: we restored the earnings link after 30 years, we ruled out 75p increases, and last year we introduced the biggest ever cash rise in pensions. He asked about women in their late 50s, many of whom are the very women who were penalised for time spent at home with their children. Although they got some protection on the basic pension, they did not get it on SERPS and the state second pension. The Government are putting that right for the very group of women about whom he asks.

The hon. Gentleman asked about women born in certain months, and the equivalent men. The changes are based on state pension age, and as he knows, that is different for men and women so the implications are also different. The April 2017 change is based on when people’s state pension age falls. He asked about people who “retire” but that is not really the right word—it is all to do with someone’s state pension age and whether it is before or after the change.

The hon. Gentleman asked how many pensioners are on £107. To be clear, someone who has worked in the public sector throughout their life—a teacher, for instance—would be on £107 because they contracted out of the other bit. In our system, from day one they would also be on £107 because we will take account of past periods of contracting out. Future service in the public sector at the full NI rate will add years to that £107. It is not a cliff edge; the exact day before or day after for those people is the same, but they can then work off that contracted-out deduction.

The hon. Gentleman asked about the national insurance rebate and—interestingly—suggested that we spend it on pensions. That is obviously a matter for a future Chancellor, but given that the public sector, the NHS and schools will pay significantly more national insurance, it would be interesting to know whether the hon. Gentleman’s position is that that money should go from the NHS and schools into higher state pensions. He asked about the 10-year de minimis. Let us be clear that we are not saying 10 years in the new system—the requirement is 10 qualifying years in someone’s lifetime. That is because there are backpackers who do a couple of years of bar work and 40 years later we are paying them a state pension for another 20 years. The sorts of people who would be excluded are those who come for a few years, do not really have any skin in the game and pay just a few years of national insurance. They will not get a pension—that is how we save money to spend on pensions.

On state second pension uprating, as I mentioned in my statement, for someone on £160, the first £144—at least earnings—will be triple locked in our White Paper and the balance will be linked to the CPI as SERPS is currently. The hon. Gentleman asked about people who pay into the state second pension, and except for about 5 million public sector workers and a couple of million private sector workers, everybody else pays into the state second pension. He said they were all losers—obviously they will not accrue S2P, but they will accrue a bigger flat-rate state pension.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned the April 2010 changes to qualifying years which he described as an “enormous” reduction. That is, therefore, also an enormous cliff edge of the sort he accuses the Government of making, and there were virtually no transitional arrangements for that. Someone who retired a day before that enormous cliff edge got nothing, whereas someone who retired the day after got the benefit of 30 years’ contribution. There are precedents for such things. When the contribution years were set to 30, women’s state pension age was still 60. In our world, and in the future, it will be 65, 66 or 67, and it is hard to see why in a working life of 50-odd years someone should get a pension for 30 years of contributions. We are merging a pension with a 30-year rule with another pension with a 50-year rule, and we have 35 as a sort of weighted average.

Finally, the hon. Gentleman asked about differences in life expectancy. I gently point out, however, that when the previous Government legislated for a pension age of 66, 67 and 68, they did precisely nothing about differences in life expectancy. We are recommending an independent panel to look at the issue and advise the Secretary of State.

[Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)]

I thank the Minister for his statement. Does he agree that the task of tackling complexity is vital and that this arrangement seeks to address those many older pensioners who do not seek means-tested top-ups because it is too complex and they are often to dignified to do it?

[Steve Webb]

My hon. Friend is right. In every interview I have done today, we have had to spend about 20 minutes explaining how the current system works before we deal with the change. I welcome the fact that consumer organisations such as Age UK, although it has questions about the details, has warmly welcomed the principles of our reform.

Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill

Jane Ellison Excerpts

Tuesday 8th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Byrne]

Once upon a time—back in 2004 and 2005—when the Secretary of State was making speeches about poverty, he said that the way to judge the Conservative party was on how its policies worked for the poorest communities in the country. What many people will be asking after today’s debate is: what happened to that man?

[Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)]

The right hon. Gentleman is perhaps not willing to address the issues put to him by Government Members, but I wonder whether he will address the question raised by a former Cabinet colleague of his, Jacqui Smith, who said earlier this week that Labour canvassers

“who’ve knocked on doors recently”

have

“been told the problem for Labour is…they think we caused the deficit and they’re not…convinced we know how we’ll solve it.”

How would he respond to her?

[Mr Byrne]

I spoke to the former right honourable Member for Redditch yesterday and I set out—[Interruption.] Absolutely. I set out the substance of today’s debate and said that we have a choice between the Tory way and the Labour way to bring down welfare spending. The Tory way is to hit working families; the Labour way is to help people work.

Jobs and Social Security

Jane Ellison Excerpts

Wednesday 28th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Sheerman]

I thank the Secretary of State for that intervention, and I accept what he says. He knows that what I am getting at in this short contribution is that we play this game of blaming each other all the time, but the problem is international and global and we will have to sometimes forget party differences and work together on it. I want to make a couple of suggestions as to how we might do that.

Let us face it: all Governments throughout Europe, the United States and beyond have a long history of failure. Modern industrial democracies have this problem of skilling the work force. Indeed, I have never heard such castigation of our country’s further education system as that in yesterday’s annual report by the chief inspector of Ofsted, who said how poorly further education was performing in our country. All the evidence shows that further education is where young people get skills for the good life. It is where they get high skills to get good jobs to be the full citizens that I am after.

I have never heard of the chief inspector picking on one town in particular. I do not know what he has against Hastings, but he said that early years and primary schools are a failure for the children of Hastings and that they also fail when they go on to secondary school and further education. I was astonished. Thank God he was not talking about Huddersfield. It comes down to the fact that a significant percentage of people in our country have inadequate training and skills, and we need to work across parties to do something about that.

I want to share some of my experiences. One of my last reports when I chaired the Children, Schools and Families Committee looked at the problem of those not in education, employment or training. We found that intelligent programmes on the ground which represented a positive response from local authorities that understood their local communities, and which also had good local skills training and good employers, could make a significant difference to the number of people gaining skills and getting into work. There are good exemplars in this country, but some towns are more fortunate than others in retaining their manufacturing and employment base.

[Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)]

I rise merely to express agreement with the thrust of the hon. Gentleman’s argument on skills, and in particular to say that London is the classic case that supports it, because it has created hundreds of thousands of jobs over the past decade or so, yet large numbers of our young people have been left behind. That points to a much more deep-seated problem.

[Mr Sheerman]

That is why I spoke of our experience in the United Kingdom, which has good exemplars of significant improvement, but the best example that I found in Europe was in the Netherlands, which has a much tougher welfare policy than us. It is difficult for someone to get any welfare payment there until they are about 27. If they are not in work, they have to be in education or training, and if they are not in education or training, they do not get a welfare payment. We in this country seem to have accepted over a long period that significant numbers of young people, many of them with low skills, can be left in a shadow land—a marginal existence—on housing benefit and a little benefit for subsistence, and that they can live in this half world as half citizens for a very long time.

During one of my shadow ministerial jobs a long time ago—it was so long ago that I was a deputy to Roy Hattersley—I became something of an expert on crime and criminality. It is fascinating that if young people do not get into crime before they are 25, they do not at all; unless they bump off their partner for the usual reason later on, they do not get into criminality. The sensible policy on deterring young people from crime is to spend money on doing so early on. We can apply the same analysis of our society to unemployment. What we hate most is intergenerational worklessness, where three generations of a family have never known anyone work.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

That is an important point. I have visited Jobcentre Plus in my constituency to pay tribute to the work it is doing. Jobcentre Plus has been successful in getting people back into employment quickly, which means that the Work programme providers are not dealing with the low-hanging fruit, but with difficult-to-place individuals who need support and guidance over a longer period than Labour is willing to admit. It is also important to say that a job is not just a job, but an opportunity to change one’s lifestyle, gain respect in one’s family and community, and show that one can make a contribution.

[Jane Ellison]

The rather dismissive attitude towards jobs in retail that my hon. Friend has described drives me to distraction as well, particularly as I am co-chairman of the all-party retail group. Retail is an industry in which a great many people have started at the bottom and, from that chance on the shop floor, have risen to the very top through their application and talents. There can be no more meritocratic industry, so he is quite right to castigate the Opposition for being so dismissive.

[Guto Bebb]

Indeed. My experience of going around Tesco’s partnership stores, for example, has been quite inspiring. I found somebody who had been unemployed for eight years and was given an opportunity to work in the bakery section; 18 months later she was the manager, and famously said, “They’ll be carrying me out of here in a box, because I’ve been given an opportunity.” That is the reality of what creating a job and helping people into a job is all about.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jane Ellison Excerpts

Thursday 22nd November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Esther McVey]

They are not weasel words. Clwyd South’s statistics show that unemployment is down whether for 18 to 24-year-olds or for all claimant counts. We are doing significant work to support young people.

[Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)]

It is extremely concerning for all hon. Members when young people are unemployed. Enormous numbers of jobs have been created in London in the past 10-plus years, and yet some young people have been left behind. Does that not highlight the fact that we must approach the problem from the point of view of education and skills, rather than pretending, as the Opposition do, that the problem started in 2010?

[Esther McVey]

I agree with my hon. Friend absolutely. For clarification, the unemployment figures for young people are affected by the rising proportion of people in education rather than in the labour market. Those who have left education and are unemployed in the 16 to 24-year-old population is 9%, which is lower than in the recessions of the ’90s and the ’80s. We are doing more than ever before for the youth of today.

Working-Age Disabled People

Jane Ellison Excerpts

Thursday 25th October 2012 Westminster Hall

[Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)]

Unfortunately, I have to go to a meeting between 3 and 4 pm, so I apologise to all colleagues in the Chamber and in particular to the Front Benchers if I miss any part of the wind-ups. It is nice to get an opportunity to comment, but as someone who hopes to join the Select Committee officially in the next few weeks, once the bureaucracy can be sorted out, I leave the detailed commentary to those who have helped to prepare such a detailed report and can comment with more expertise. I will confine myself to a few general observations and to a couple of things that I have taken from a brief glance at the report and the Government response.

One of the striking things is the consensus on the need to reform DLA. Clearly there are diverging views on how that might be done, but the consensus is interesting to see. I think it is generally agreed that DLA is a confusing benefit. I understand that fraud levels are low, so I agree with those comments, and I shall come back to the points about media coverage and so on. The DWP’s own figures estimate, however, that there is more than £600 million of overpayment and, more significantly, nearly £200 million of underpayment. Any benefit involving that level of misallocation of resource clearly needs to be looked at carefully to see how it can be reformed.

Once I knew I was likely to be joining the Select Committee and, in particular, to be contributing to this debate—although I have tried to speak in other debates on disability-related benefits—I made a particular point of talking to disabled people. I also have a disabled staff member, and over the last few days I have talked to carers of disabled people and looked at the case load that comes to my constituency surgery to try to get an insight into people’s lives and how they can be supported.

I took from the Committee’s report the concern about a big bang approach, and I note that the Government have said that the reforms will be phased in, although the Chairman of the Select Committee raised some concern about the phasing-in looking fairly big bang-ish, and I am sure the Minister will comment on that. However, it is sensible that some of the reforms have been characterised by not being big bang changes. The previous Government introduced some big bang reforms, and I understand from what former Ministers have said that they spent several years afterwards dealing with the consequences. I am sure that the Select Committee’s work is invaluable in trying to advise on how some of the reforms can be introduced without causing people unnecessary problems.

I also took from the Committee’s report—this goes partly to the point about coverage—concern about interaction with disabled people and the groups that represent them. The Government have responded positively to that. The snappily named personal independence payment implementation stakeholder forum is now holding a dialogue, and I am sure that the Minister will comment on its work and how it is informing the Government as they proceed.

I was interested to see that the Government have responded to some of the Committee’s recommendations, but other issues have been raised today to which they must also respond. I am firmly in the camp of my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd) as someone who very much wants the reforms to work, but I will use the knowledge that I have gained on the ground in my constituency and feed it back into areas where we may need to do something differently, because there is a slight danger. To put that into context:

“Our goal is to make responsibility the cornerstone of our welfare state.”

That could have been said by the Secretary of State, but it was in the Labour party’s manifesto at the last general election.

There is enormous consensus on the cornerstone of responsibility. I am not being partisan, but there is sometimes a danger that throwing up a series of practical concerns about implementation may add up to a cumulative whole that, if followed to its logical conclusion, might present an overwhelming case for not pressing ahead. I believe that there is an overwhelming case for pressing ahead and working through some of the implementation challenges, because there is a huge danger in not doing so. It may sometimes appear that throwing up such problems amounts to saying, “Let’s just put this in the ‘too difficult’ tray and come back to it in a few years.” That has been happening for decades, and it does a great disservice to the welfare state.

I want to pick up something that my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne said about the dialogue on welfare reform, and particularly that involving disability. I completely agree with the comments about some of the tabloid coverage, and I am sure that Ministers have taken on board the need for all of us to be responsible, but there is a flipside, and those charged with representing disabled people—the activist groups, charities and pressure groups—also have a responsibility not to alarm people unduly. I will give a practical example.

I recently went to the annual general meeting of an organisation that provides support and advice to people with disabled children. A lady from a welfare advisory group gave a 25-minute presentation, during which she presented, almost without exception, the possible downsides of the reforms without knowing anything about the personal circumstances of the people in the room, many of whom I knew pretty well because they were constituents and people I had dealt with. Some of them had much to gain from some of the reforms she was talking about, but her starting point was how things could get worse.

Two things struck me about the lady’s talk. In 25 minutes, she did not at any point mention work. She made an assumption that none of the people she was addressing were in work or would progress towards work. That was dispiriting. It is important that those on both sides of the argument do not exaggerate for effect, and the Chairman of the Select Committee made the point about some people’s vulnerability.

I take issue with the suggestion that all disabled people are among the most vulnerable people in our society. I do not believe that. An obvious and clichéd example is that many of the Paralympians we admired during the summer—they were clearly not vulnerable. They had a disability, and we wanted to help them to get over that disability and make the most of what are already fulfilling lives. My friend who works for me has a disability and needs help to fulfil his working life, but he is not intrinsically vulnerable. I take slight issue with that suggestion.

There are two recent reports—“The Tipping Point”, and “Holes in the Safety Net” which Baroness Grey-Thompson introduced last week.

[Stephen Lloyd]

My hon. Friend reminds me that I was at a meeting only last week when the partner of a blind person said that because his wife was blind and could not work they needed support. That was frustrating because, although I am sure he loves his wife, he was making the assumption that a blind person could not work. I know blind people who are earning more than £100,000 a year. We need to change public perception.

[Jane Ellison]

I could not agree more. It is central to these important reforms that we ask people what they can do, instead of what they cannot do.

[Glenda Jackson]

I take on board the hon. Lady’s point about overstatement of the most vulnerable, but some people who are asked that question are totally incapable of answering. A constituent who is 27 years old with a mental age of a six-year-old went to be reassessed. She is already in the system, and the assessor’s report was a million miles from the facts and the actuality. Without the new change that allowed her to take her mother with her, she would have been not only vulnerable but completely unsupported.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jane Ellison]

Absolutely. That intervention illustrates two points. First, there is an enormous range of disability; we are talking about huge diversity. We must be mindful of the fact that it is difficult to say anything that is true of all disabled people because of the extraordinary span of people covered, from the example just given to some of the people we saw winning gold medals for Britain during the summer. Secondly, the system has already been changed to respond to that concern, and that is exactly as it should be. I am sure that the Select Committee plays an important part in looking at evidence from life to see how a small tweak to the system can enable someone who is exceptionally vulnerable to be properly represented in the system.

[Glenda Jackson]

The hon. Lady is missing the essential point that I clearly failed to make. The decider in that instance is someone who has been appointed and financed by central Government. They make the decisions, and we have already spoken about the number of appeals arising. That individual should have said immediately, “This is absurd and no one should have sent you to see me”, but they went through the process. My only point is that the deciders of an individual’s life are sometimes a million miles from understanding. They are appointed by the Government, so it is the Government’s responsibility to ensure that assessors are up to the job.

[Jane Ellison]

I completely agree, but that is not a reason not to press ahead with important reforms.

To return to my previous point, it is sometime possible to give the impression that when a series of practical concerns amass to so great a number—many have been brought up today—that is a reason not to proceed. That is exactly why we have made the mistake of leaving things in the “too difficult” tray in the past.

[Teresa Pearce (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab)]

I thank the hon. Lady for giving way; she is being very generous. On the problems that are being experienced, is it not the job of Government, the Opposition and all of us here to use our experience to ensure that when contracts are drawn up, they are the best contracts possible? It is not fair to say that it is oppositionism; it is experience. The hon. Lady said that there have been amendments to the Atos contract, and she is right, but this time we would like there to be no need for further amendments. The contract should be right in the first place. What we are saying is, “Let’s look at what could go wrong and what has gone wrong, and let’s get it right this time.”

[Jane Ellison]

I do not disagree with the hon. Lady, and I have not used the word “oppositionist”. What I am trying to convey is that by constantly focusing on the things that might go wrong or sometimes do, we are not always talking about the things that have gone wrong; sometimes, we project forward and consider things that could go wrong, and that in itself can become a reason to doubt the point of the reform. That is the point I am making. We need to try to show some balance.

Finally, I believe in the welfare state. It is an enormously important, civilising aspect of our modern society. A problem we have at the moment is that there is not a general buy-in from the general public. We have talked about the media and some of the red-top coverage, and so on. This is a critical juncture for the welfare state. If we care about it and believe that it is vital to everything that we are as a country, that should make us more determined to press on with reforming the parts of it that clearly are not working.

[Stephen Lloyd]

I thank the hon. Lady for giving way. Does she agree that the welfare state, which I, too, passionately support, should be about a hand-up and not a handout? There are many tens of thousands of people with disabilities and disabled people already in work, and many more who would do outstandingly in jobs if they were given the right support to do those jobs and not seen by society as victims, which they are not.

[Jane Ellison]

I absolutely agree, and that is why it is so important to rebuild the general confidence across our nation in our welfare state. Reform cannot be put off any longer, and although there might be difficulties and practical hurdles, we have to work through them. So long as people do not see the welfare state and disability support through the prism that my hon. Friend described, but instead have an unhelpful, negative, tabloid view of it, we will continue to lose the trust and the buy-in. That point is absolutely fundamental, and I hope that as part of the Work and Pensions Committee I can play a thoughtful and responsible role in holding the Government to account. I support the broad thrust of the Government’s reforms, because the future of the welfare state and the respect in which it is held are at stake if we do not press on and get this right.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sheila Gilmore]

rose—

[Jane Ellison]

rose—

[Debbie Abrahams]

I give way to the hon. Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris).

[Debbie Abrahams]

I should also have said that I have to leave soon. I apologise because I will not be taking any more interventions, but I am happy to answer that question. What the Chancellor said in the emergency Budget in June 2010 was clear:

“It is right that people who are disabled are helped to lead a life of dignity. We will continue to support them, and we will not reduce the rate at which this benefit is paid. However, three times as many people claim it today than when it was introduced 18 years ago, and the costs have quadrupled in real terms to more than £11 billion a year, making it one of the largest items of Government spending.”—[Official Report, 22 June 2010; Vol. 512, c. 173.]

As my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South said, there will be a 20% reduction in the number of people who are able to have a disability-related benefit awarded to them, and significant savings, again, can be identified within the Government’s impact assessment.

I want to unpick what the Chancellor said in that statement. He was, and is, saying that even if the prevalence of people with disabilities has grown by three times—there was a very unpleasant undertone implying that it had not—sorry, folks, it is just not sustainable. That is the key message that has been coming through, as my hon. Friend made clear. The impact assessment on the personal independence payment was, again, telling. It said:

“The new benefit will help to ensure that expenditure on DLA is sustainable and resources focused on those most in need of additional support.”

It goes on to assert that although there is an association between low income and poor health, there is limited evidence that providing money will improve health, which is correct. However, it continued:

“It is possible that the policy could have positive impacts on health if it leads to more disabled people moving into work.”

That, too, is very telling. First, the evidence was deflated or inflated, depending on what it said, to support the policy to get rid of DLA and replace it with PIP. The evidence was clearly manipulated and the lack of a comprehensive evidence base is shameful; my hon. Friend referred to that. There is real concern that the policy is being railroaded through. As we have discussed, there are a number of independent disabled people who are able to work. That is absolutely fantastic, but there are also some very vulnerable disabled people. The benefit should take them into account as much as it does those who are independent.

Secondly, the impact assessment makes an association with the positive impacts of work on health—which again, there are—when DLA has always been about helping contribute to the extra costs of being disabled. It is not an out-of-work benefit, so that relates to shifting the mindset of what the change is about. That is so important. The allowance has always been about supporting people with disabilities to lead as normal a life as possible.

For the record, the evidence on the trends in disability reflects our industrial heritage. The regions with heavy industries and occupations that did people’s health no favours have the highest rates of disability and ill health. There are diseases such as coal miners’ pneumoconiosis, asbestosis and silicosis. Of course, many of those diseases have long latencies, and there are industrial accidents that Members will be familiar with. Most work is good for people’s health, but not all, and there is strong evidence about that.

As I have said, we can agree—there is consensus across the House—that the DLA system, as it stands, is flawed. For example, a clear system for reviewing some awards is needed, but we should not restrict the access to support to overcome the barriers to day-to-day living that a person with a disability faces. That is what we need to address.

As I said before, the Government’s own estimates predict that more than 500,000 people will not receive this support. As many expert witnesses in the Select Committee’s inquiry concluded, cutting DLA is nothing more than a cost-cutting exercise. It is part of the wider erosion of the welfare state. As has been said, public buy-in is achieved by changing our view of what welfare is about. Unfortunately, the Government have a willing accomplice in the media to help them to do that.

I am really disappointed. We have talked about the role of the media. We have done a number of reports highlighting the importance of the media’s role and of responsible press releases and statements. However, this morning on the “Today” programme, the Secretary of State was talking as though people who are claiming benefits are a drain on society. It was a very inaccurate portrayal of benefit recipients. It was an attempt once again to suggest that the majority are workshy scroungers when the facts are that most people on benefits are in work and most are net contributors to the Treasury. That was not being reported; it was as though people were really abusing the system. There have been a number of such reports, and that has to change.

In addition to the reporting and the way in which attitudes to welfare are being changed, a system is being created in which people on higher incomes see themselves as separate to or outside the welfare state. We are not in post-war Britain. At that time, there was buy-in to the welfare state by everyone. Everyone saw themselves as contributing to and gaining from it. We were literally all in it together.

The final issue—this happened in the US under Reagan—is the putting in place of policies whose implications are unclear. Little has been done to assess the impact on the people they will affect. We have talked about the shameful impact assessment. My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South talked about the lack of information available on the implications of this benefit change.

Despite a detailed, evidence-based inquiry by the Select Committee, the Government have rejected our recommendations out of hand. They seem determined to press on with what they are doing. I really have concerns about that. My hon. Friend mentioned the case in which a coroner reported that a suicide could be directly attributed to the pressure that was felt by someone with mental illness as a result of having to go through the work capability assessment. Is this really the type of society that we want to live in? I ask that question because I have—

[Jane Ellison]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

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[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Sheridan. Given the colour of your shirt and tie, you are obviously celebrating “Think Pink” week or whatever it is. That is germane to some of the people who have to claim the kind of benefits that we are dealing with today.

I sincerely welcome the hon. Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison); I am sure that she will indeed be joining the Select Committee. We have missed our Conservative members at the last few meetings. It might be thought that we would find that a bit of a relief, but actually it is very good to have the debate that we usually have. I am sure that the hon. Lady will be relieved to know that it is a Select Committee in which we do not necessarily spend a lot of time berating one another; there is often a wide area of agreement.

I would like to take up a couple of points before going on to the more detailed issues that I wanted to raise. People think that this is a change for the worse because of the context from which it started. That is very important to remember. It is still about reducing the number of people who will be on PIP compared with DLA. That is in the Department’s own impact assessment. It is about saving money. That not only coloured the beginning of the process, but has continued to colour the process. People are very concerned that things may get worse for them or members of their families.

I take slight issue with the comment made by the hon. Member for Battersea that previous Governments left all this in the “Too difficult” tray. My right hon. Friend the Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire), who will be answering this debate on behalf of the Opposition, will have the scars to prove that that was not the case. Changes were made to many of the benefits that existed; I do not think that it is true to say that nothing changed.

I find slightly odd some of the language that has been used in relation to the need to reform DLA. The suggestion has sometimes been that it is a very old benefit that has to be modernised and brought up to date. In fact, it is not that old—20 years old is not Victorian; it cannot even be described as post war. There is a tendency to exaggerate some of the claims, and if people do that, there is a danger—

[Jane Ellison]

On the point about exaggeration, I take the point made a moment ago about where things started—the way a debate starts out and how it is framed can influence the tone of it thereafter. I accept that point.

Would the hon. Lady accept that there is a duty and responsibility on those who support the best interests of disabled people not to assume the worst in every circumstance—not to highlight only the cuts aspect or whatever of reforms, but to present them in a more balanced way? Many important reports, including the two I referred to in my speech, are based on opinion surveys of disabled people or their families. Colouring opinion by misrepresenting the facts feeds directly into how people feel and becomes self-perpetuating. I seek balance on both sides in the tone used in the discussion.

[Sheila Gilmore]

I would not suggest that exaggerated comments have not been made. In answering or writing to constituents, I certainly find myself at times being careful to say, “I think this is wrong” or “I think this should not be done”, while not panicking people, so I tell them that it is not happening tomorrow, that there is time and that they should seek advice. It is important that people are not unnecessarily concerned.

The atmosphere in which the debate is ongoing is not helping. It is easy to blame the media, but there is still a tendency on the part of Ministers, whether they intend to or not, to juxtapose benefit claimants with hard-working people. Only the other week, the Prime Minister spoke about people heading out to work in the early hours of the morning, seeing their neighbour’s curtains closed and feeling rightly angry.

That neighbour with the curtains closed might be a night-shift worker or someone with an illness, which might not be visible. It is clear that those with mental health difficulties or less obvious conditions are those who people see and think, “What are they doing on benefit? How is that happening?” It does not help to compare and contrast continually in that way. It engenders some of the responses that we get.

The Government have to be careful about how they present their statistics. There have been improvements of late, in that not quite such provocative statements have been made in response to statistics, but it is not all about media spinning. There is a tendency with the statistics—this week, for example, on the outcome of ESA assessments—to emphasise how many people are found fit for work, with an undertone of, “which means that they were previously scroungers or not entitled to the benefit.” We have not had the migration statistics on ESA, so they were new claimants; they are claiming for the first time.

Let us have a comparator. Let us see what happened previously with incapacity benefit, for example, when people claimed for the first time. I hope that we are careful not to fall into the same trap when the PIP statistics come out. Some 50% of those who try to claim DLA are refused, so if 50% of those who try to claim PIP are also refused, I hope that it will not be hinted at or suggested that that in some way proves that people were getting a benefit that they should not have had. Remember what a baseline is and look at it that way.

Universal Credit and Welfare Reform

Jane Ellison Excerpts

Tuesday 11th September 2012 Commons Chamber

[Dame Anne Begg]

We should also bear in mind the debt that those people will incur in the meantime, and the fact that, even when the money has been paid, it will be difficult for them to get back on to an even keel.

I know that the Government will not want to plan for failure, but, as was pointed out by the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley)—who has now left the Chamber—they need to have a contingency plan in case the worst happens, or, indeed, the system proves to be susceptible to large-scale fraud. I hope that the worst does not happen, but, given the Government’s record of IT failures, the possibility must have crossed Ministers’ minds. It is not enough to say that the tax credit IT disaster was the Treasury’s fault, as the Treasury is involved in universal credit with real-time information, which is not being developed on the “agile” system by which the Secretary of State sets so much store.

I must admit that—apart from the disastrous Child Support Agency—the DWP has a better reputation than most for delivering new IT systems, although that is not saying much. However, all its previous systems have been delivered over a much longer time scale, with much more testing, than will be the case with universal credit.

The Government say that they have learnt from the experience of the tax credit system that there will not be a “big bang”, because not everyone will come into the system on day one. However, for individual families there will be a big bang, because all their benefit, or income, will be put at risk if anything does go wrong.

Let me return to the subject of those who will not be able to manage the new system. Let us take the best-case scenario that the Government have painted today, and assume that the IT system works perfectly, with no hitches; that most people adapt to the monthly payments; that the welfare rights people and all the other organisations are given lots of money by the Government, are well trained and provide plenty of advice; and that 80% of people—or even 90%, but the Government are saying 80%—are able to access the online form and make their applications digitally. Even if all that works, there will still be people who will not manage. The success or otherwise of universal credit will depend on how well they are catered for, even if the proportion is as low as 10% or 20%. If it is only 10%, that still represents 770,000 households. More than 1 million people will probably struggle with the system, and on the basis of the Government’s own figures the number could be more than 2 million, so I hope that the Government are paying a great deal of attention to that group of people.

[Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)]

Does the hon. Lady really think that the only measure of universal credit’s success will be what may happen to the most vulnerable, about whom all of us feel understandable concern? Does she not think that an important measure of its success will be the fact that it will increase incentives to work, and will make work pay for those who want to return to the work force?

[Dame Anne Begg]

If the group about whom I have been talking cannot access the system, there is very little chance that they will be able to return to work. That is why the support is needed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to contribute to the debate. Needless to say, I do not share much of the scepticism of so many Opposition Members, who I fear are, in some cases, substituting extended concern about the detail, however right and proper, as a proxy for opposing the reform. Some of the support we have seen even for the principle of these reforms is half hearted at best. Given what we have heard in one or two speeches, one would have thought that this Government inherited some sort of welfare utopia in which all was working smoothly, nothing needed amending and only the uprating of benefits was necessary each year.

The situation we inherited was a complete shambles, which is apparent in a constituency such as mine. We are lucky in that many jobs have been created over the past decade in London, yet young people in my constituency have said to my face, “It isn’t worth getting a job; I’m better off sitting at home, playing on the internet and living on benefits”. If that is the case, we have to do something about it. The problem I see is an inter-generational one.

I have listened to many of the detailed speeches given by the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) in Public Bill Committee and elsewhere, and I know she makes many good points about the detail that have to be addressed, but this is also about committing ourselves to a principle, quite apart from the rising costs of the whole system. I have seen intelligent women in my constituency being infantilised and reduced to a position in which they do not even back themselves to manage their own finances monthly, and I have seen people with qualifications and degrees who have been out of work for a very long time.

[Kate Green]

rose—

[Jane Ellison]

I shall take just this one intervention, as we are running out of time.

[Kate Green]

No one is pretending that the previous benefit system was perfect, but we should equally acknowledge that for the overwhelming majority of people in it, work did pay more than being on benefits. One instance of how the system was effective in helping to support that is the fact that lone parent employment—mostly female employment—rose from 44% in the mid-1990s to approaching 60% today.

[Jane Ellison]

That intervention misses one essential point—that there were too many in the system altogether. We cannot go on as we are.

Concerns have been expressed about monthly budgeting and other issues, and it is right to look at them. One particular point I want to make in my limited time is about what I hope will be a real engine for creativity in respect of new products to help people. We cannot say that it is only a matter of providing advice services; we need to work harder as a society to create products that work for people who are vulnerable or less financially skilled and so forth.

I do not believe the point has been made this afternoon that there is a real opportunity for a degree of rehabilitation of the banking sector. I represent an area in Battersea where the Clapham sect was active between 1790 and 1830. Its members included Wilberforce and others who were great pioneers of social reform. Not every Member may know that nearly all the Clapham sect were from banking families. I was reminded of this fact by the vicar of St Luke’s church in my constituency this week. She is piloting a meeting to discuss how the world of finance can do more to help the poor and the vulnerable in today’s society, building on the work of the Clapham sect.

I think there is a real opportunity here for the banking sector to use some genuine creativity and to step into the breach and look at ways of providing practical assistance, putting something back into society in the form of serving vulnerable people who, to date, have largely not been catered for by proper banking products or the right support from that sector. It should not be all about the voluntary sector; there is an opportunity for people involved in banks to be true to some of the heritage of the social reformers who have gone before them. I am thinking about jam jar accounts and individual banking, which I know the Department is looking at, as they could prove to be important and life changing for many vulnerable citizens.

My main point is that the Labour party has got itself on the wrong side of this debate. I believe in the welfare state, which is one of this country’s most important and civilised achievements, but if we do not make it work, not just for the people in it but for society as a whole, and if we do not restore confidence in it, we fatally undermine something that represents, as I say, such an important and civilising aspect of this country.

Before I was an MP, when I was candidate, I received an e-mail that was rather similar to the letter my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) told us he received. My e-mail was from a young woman who was a trainee nurse and lived on one of the tougher estates in my constituency. She was a single mum bringing up two children, and she wanted to work. Every morning, however, as she walked down the walkway on her estate, she was mocked, as people shouted at her through the windows of other flats. They said she was a fool to go to work and asked why she was doing it. It is absolutely appalling that we have created a situation in which someone like that, trying to do the right thing for her family, is mocked by the people around her.

Unless the Labour party puts itself on the right side of this debate and understands that we create and maintain confidence in the welfare state as an important aspect of our country by being on the side of that nurse who wanted to go to work and by ensuring that the system always works for her, it will find itself left behind in this debate. I applaud the Government for what they are trying to do. There are risks, and the Secretary of State has been open about them today—of course there are risks in major reform—but it is about meeting those risks head on and making the reform work, not about naysaying it before it has even started.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jane Ellison Excerpts

Monday 10th September 2012 Commons Chamber

[Esther McVey]

I visited my local Remploy factory and met its workers, and I was hugely impressed with them. I was horrified to find out what had and had not happened with their proposed business plan, so I pursued the matter. The automotive industry on Merseyside was expanding at the time—we now have 24-hour work at Jaguar in Halewood and Vauxhall has been saved—and I thought that something could be done. That did not happen and I tried to get to the bottom of it—I was most disappointed with the management and that is on the record. What we are looking for is viable businesses, which we will support in every which way we can. I am also meeting various disability groups to consider the shape of the Remploy business in the 21st century and what we can do. I will be a champion for disabled people and I am looking at future job opportunities for them.

[Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)]

18. What steps he is taking to support people eligible for universal credit with budgeting.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

We hope that most people will be able to manage their money successfully and we are working towards that, but we also recognise that, in the development of universal credit, there will always be some people who will need additional support. We are looking at and trialling that and making arrangements. There will be a range of budgeting support services available for those people to help them prepare for universal credit and to provide ongoing support. We are consulting on these matters at present.

[Jane Ellison]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his reply. I meet a local single mothers support group, the Women of Wandsworth, on a regular basis. Some of the mums have expressed concern about monthly budgeting and are worried that it will just be assumed that they can manage. Will my right hon. Friend confirm that, under universal credit, my constituents can be reassured that support is in place and that there will be no question of them just being left to their own devices?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Absolutely—I can give that assurance. That is exactly what we are working and consulting on at the moment. Of course, people will be concerned about it, but there are positives to take from this. The most important thing is that, by trying to move people, eventually, on to a monthly payment, that will bring them much more into line with the world of work. One of the great problems we have had is that, when people who have been unemployed go into work, they find it very difficult to cope with having suddenly to take on and manage their arrangements. The key thing is that we want to get those who can do so to that point, and we will work with the others. For some, there may be interim two-weekly payments. At the moment, we are looking to trial a whole series of arrangements to make that much easier for them, and we will make sure that that happens.

Welfare Reform Bill

Jane Ellison Excerpts

Wednesday 1st February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Jenny Willott]

I have made clear my view on the total benefits cap a number of times already in the House, but I take this opportunity to highlight again that Liberal Democrat Members support the principle of a cap and the important message that it sends out that it has to be better for people to be in work than on benefits.

It is also important to exempt those in the support group of employment and support allowance and those who receive disability living allowance. We do not expect those people to work and it would be inappropriate to apply a cap to them, so I welcome the move announced earlier today. I also welcome the package of transitional measures that the Government have announced—in particular, the grace period to protect those who fall out of work. The Government’s grace period of nine months, announced today, is more generous than the six-month period that Labour proposed and was discussed in the other place. I believe that nine months is the right period of time to allow people a chance to get back into work. The vast majority of people who fall out of work will get back into work within that period, so the provision is fair both to families and to taxpayers.

During the debate on the cap in recent months, there has been a lot of rhetoric about huge families sponging off the state. I have sympathy with some of the points made by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell). Some of that rhetoric has been extremely unhelpful. Suggestions that all those on out-of-work benefits are getting more than people in work are simply not true. The rhetoric has been ramped up a little and that has been unhelpful for getting to the truth.

[Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)]

Like my hon. Friend, I welcome the Government’s announcement on transitional arrangements, which is particularly valid for those of us with London constituencies. She mentioned unhelpful rhetoric. Does she agree that it is important that, across the House, we convey what those transitional arrangements are, rather than spending a lot of time making political points and scaremongering, which affects all our constituents?

[Jenny Willott]

Many living in London have been told that they are going to be made homeless and that everybody on benefits gets more than people who work. Those messages are unhelpful. They scare people and we need to make sure that, from now on, there is a more sensible, measured tone to the debate.

Work and Pensions

Jane Ellison Excerpts

Friday 1st April 2011 Ministerial Corrections

[Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con)]

3. When he plans to respond to the review of employment support services for disabled people conducted by Liz Sayce.

[Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)]

10. When he plans to respond to the review of employment support services for disabled people conducted by Liz Sayce.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Maria Miller)]

Liz Sayce is due to submit her independent review of specialist disability employment services by the summer of 2012. We look forward to her recommendations and will respond in due course.

[Official Report, 28 March 2011, Vol. 526, c. 3.]

Letter of correction from Maria Miller:

An error has been identified in the oral answer given on 28 March 2011.

The correct answer should have been:

Oral Answers to Questions

Jane Ellison Excerpts

Monday 28th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con)]

3. When he plans to respond to the review of employment support services for disabled people conducted by Liz Sayce.

[Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)]

10. When he plans to respond to the review of employment support services for disabled people conducted by Liz Sayce. [Official Report, 1 April 2011, Vol. 526, c. 10MC.]

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Maria Miller)]

Liz Sayce is due to submit her independent review of specialist disability employment services by the summer of 2012. We look forward to her recommendations and will respond in due course.

--- Later in debate ---

[Maria Miller]

As I travel around and speak to disabled people in various types of employment, I hear from them directly how important new media are in helping people in that sector both to obtain jobs and to remain in employment. I am sure that new media opportunities will remain at the heart of the Government’s drive to get more people into work.

[Jane Ellison]

How is the Work Choice programme helping people with disabilities, especially those who need more specialist support?

[Maria Miller]

As my hon. Friend will know, Work Choice was launched in October last year, and concentrates on both pre-employment and on-the-job support. We will support about 13,000 people a year through Work Choice—people who experience the most difficulties in obtaining employment—and I am sure that it will prove to be an important part of the Government’s programme.