Oral Answers to Questions

Iain Duncan Smith Excerpts

Monday 10th September 2012 Commons Chamber

[Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con)]

16. What recent steps he has taken to prevent benefit tourism.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

The European Commission wants to end the habitual residence test. As a result, we would have to pay benefits to EU migrants as and when they arrive and they would not have to prove that they have been here, are working and have a residence. I believe that that is fundamentally wrong, as do the Government. The habitual residence test is vital to protect our benefits system and to stop such benefit tourism. I also do not believe that the EU has any rights in that area, and we are working with other countries that feel much the same.

[Angie Bray]

I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. Does he agree that any measures that encourage benefit tourism place an intolerable burden on counties, such as ours, that provide generous welfare provision and that we need an agreement across Europe to protect countries from that threat?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Yes, I agree with my hon. Friend. I referred to working with other countries, and a large number of other member states also have real concerns about the move and believe that they, too, will be affected. Among them are 17 member states, including Germany, Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark and Finland, that attended a conference we held and they all expressed their concern. We are working with them on a set of agreed principles that we will present to the EU, which I hope will end this nonsense.

[Mr Spencer]

I am glad to hear that the Secretary of State will be robust in his dealings with the EU. What message does it send to hard-working taxpayers in Sherwood who, when they need the safety net of the state, find that it is being abused by those who simply step off a boat and who have not contributed to the system in the UK?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend is of course right that we want to support people who, through no fault of their own, fall out of work, and we want to do that for our own citizens. We also accept that for those who have been here for a period of time—hence the habitual residence test—because it is important to support those who are genuinely resident in the UK and delivering something for the UK economy. His constituents will understand fully that it is right to do that. However, it is not right for us to end up with a system—other countries agree on this—in which someone can literally arrive here and, only days after, decide that they are not working and, therefore, they are eligible for benefits. That would be quite wrong for the British taxpayer.

[Mr Jones]

My constituents will be horrified with this proposal from the EU Commission but heartened by the robust stance my right hon. Friend is taking. Does he not agree that, in addition to a consensus across Europe on the issue, we need a firm and robust consensus across this House? Therefore, what representations has he received from the Labour party in this regard?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I actually have not received any representations from the Labour party but, to be fair, I did not ask for any. I always look forward to seeing my opposite number over a drink, although we have not had one recently, and he is more than welcome to make representations. He should know that we have had good representations from other countries that were not part of this, including Portugal, Slovakia and Slovenia. I want to put it on the record that the costs of the proposal could be enormous. If we did not have the British residency test, it is estimated that right now the cost would be something in the order of £155 million, although that could change.

[Gareth Johnson]

I welcome the Secretary of State’s announcement on the habitual residence test. Does he agree that the test is vital in preventing abuse of our welfare state? Perhaps most of all, however, surely we should be deciding on such issues, not the European Union.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Again, I agree with my hon. Friend. We already have an issue that should be dealt with beyond that, with people who declare themselves as self-employed on arrival here—some coming in as sellers on the street, and so on. There is a way in which they can claim benefits. We do not want to open that up to everybody; we would rather deal with that but not lose the habitual residence test, which is my plan.

[Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State none the less acknowledge that, in fact, migrant workers are more likely to be in work and disproportionately less likely to be claiming benefits than non-migrants? Does he not think it important that we conduct the debate with the facts accurately and reliably portrayed?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I agree that we want to ensure that the door is open to those who want to come and work here and benefit the UK. That is part of the agreements in the European Union. However, we have concerns, and we are not alone: 17 countries and others are beginning to ask why this is necessary. Freedom of movement exists; what the habitual residence test does is protect our understanding of that, not damage it. Indeed, we have no intention of damaging it, but we certainly want to protect British taxpayers from any kind of change.

[Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con)]

9. What recent estimate he has made of the number of people in work not saving for a pension.

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[Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)]

18. What steps he is taking to support people eligible for universal credit with budgeting.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

We hope that most people will be able to manage their money successfully and we are working towards that, but we also recognise that, in the development of universal credit, there will always be some people who will need additional support. We are looking at and trialling that and making arrangements. There will be a range of budgeting support services available for those people to help them prepare for universal credit and to provide ongoing support. We are consulting on these matters at present.

[Jane Ellison]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his reply. I meet a local single mothers support group, the Women of Wandsworth, on a regular basis. Some of the mums have expressed concern about monthly budgeting and are worried that it will just be assumed that they can manage. Will my right hon. Friend confirm that, under universal credit, my constituents can be reassured that support is in place and that there will be no question of them just being left to their own devices?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Absolutely—I can give that assurance. That is exactly what we are working and consulting on at the moment. Of course, people will be concerned about it, but there are positives to take from this. The most important thing is that, by trying to move people, eventually, on to a monthly payment, that will bring them much more into line with the world of work. One of the great problems we have had is that, when people who have been unemployed go into work, they find it very difficult to cope with having suddenly to take on and manage their arrangements. The key thing is that we want to get those who can do so to that point, and we will work with the others. For some, there may be interim two-weekly payments. At the moment, we are looking to trial a whole series of arrangements to make that much easier for them, and we will make sure that that happens.

[Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab)]

Is part of the Secretary of State’s strategy to help people move on to universal credit the expansion of food banks, which is seen as a disgrace and a condemnation of this Government across the country?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Not at all. When we came to office, I was told by the Department that despite the constant requests from a variety of people who provide food banks, in particular the Trussell Trust, to put their leaflets in jobcentres to advertise what they were doing, the last Government said no, because they did not want the embarrassment of their involvement. We immediately allowed them to do so, which is one reason for the increase in the number of people seeking food banks.

[Mr Nick Gibb (Bognor Regis and Littlehampton) (Con)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on retaining his position. Given that eligibility for free school meals is a key factor in determining deprivation and a key indicator of a child’s educational life chances, what assurances can he give that the structure and income bands of universal credit will not undermine the ability to target educational improvement where it is most needed?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

May I say first that the work that my hon. Friend did at the Department for Education will stand the test of time and that people will thank him for it? The consultations and work we are doing on things such as passported benefits are critical to ensure that everybody’s position improves as a result of universal credit. I give him my personal guarantee that that is exactly what we will do.

[Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)]

Does the Secretary of State accept that somebody on jobseeker’s allowance with a disposable income of less than £70 a week who manages with fortnightly payments is actually very good at budgeting? The danger of monthly payments is not budgeting but the lack of money to buy everything that everybody else takes for granted and that a person should be able to buy with their benefit.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Absolutely—I accept that we have to deal with those issues. We are seeking to move to monthly payments. When payments moved from being weekly to fortnightly, everyone said it would cause major problems, but very little happened. We are putting in place requirements so that people may receive their money on a two-weekly basis if they are unable to cope. We recognise that when we introduce this process, people will have to transition into it so that they are not left with a period without any money. All that is under consideration. We are trialling the programmes to ensure that we get this right. I give the hon. Lady my assurance that we will not move on this unless we are certain we can make it work.

[Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD)]

I am a strong advocate of universal credit, as the Secretary of State knows, but I retain a couple of concerns. The plan for a single person within the family to receive all the universal credit could be detrimental to women in particular. Will he confirm that there will be enough flexibility to ensure that women do not lose out?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

That issue has been raised, so we have discussed it with a number of people and will allow for it. People will be able to nominate who should receive the payment. If there is a problem, in certain circumstances we will agree that an individual should receive the money. There is huge flexibility over where the payment should go and we are consulting on that at the moment. We will make any changes we need to make.

[Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State will recognise that among the people who will need help with budgeting under universal credit are women and men in flight from domestic violence and seeking refuge. Will he give an absolute guarantee that they will not suffer from a lack of places and that refuges will not be penalised, causing a reduction in places for the women and men who need them?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I can give the hon. Gentleman that guarantee. If he has any concerns that he thinks we might not have dealt with, my door is open for him to come and talk to me. I am talking to many organisations, including Refuge, to ensure that we cover those issues. This is a priority concern for us and I give my absolute guarantee that that will happen.

[Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con)]

19. What recent representations he has received on the setting of an annual benefit cap at £35,000.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

We have received a number of representations on the benefit cap, which will be introduced from 2013 and be set at a maximum of £26,000 net a year. That is about restoring fairness to the system and ensuring that those on benefits no longer receive more in state support than the average earnings of a working family. We have worked hard to identify the households and families that will be affected by the cap well in advance of the April start date. There is additional funding of some £190 million to smooth the transition over the spending review period.

[Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con)]

I thank the Secretary of State for that answer and congratulate him on the work he has done on this issue.

The average salary in my constituency is £22,400, and people cannot understand why anybody would oppose a cap on benefits that is substantially more than they earn to feed their families. A week on Friday I am organising a jobs fair in Burton, which we expect 2,500 people to attend. Does the Secretary of State agree that it is important to tell jobseekers that they will always be better off in work than on benefits?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

This is one of the most popular programmes that this Government are introducing, and the public genuinely believe that it is the right thing to do. The only group, it seems, who do not think it is the right thing to do are those sitting on the Opposition Benches.

When we recently started dipping into the issue and surveying those who were likely to be affected, it was interesting to find out that, already, well in advance of what is going to happen, about a third of people have admitted that they are out looking for work as a result of the oncoming benefit cap. Some 88% are now up to date with their rent, and 1% have reported having to move.

[Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)]

20. What discussions he has had with companies that manage contracts under the Work programme on collaborating to reduce unemployment in the area in which they work; and if he will make a statement.

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[Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con)]

21. What steps he is taking to develop new measurements of child poverty?

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

The latest figures show that despite the previous Government spending huge sums—more than £300 billion—on working age welfare and tax credits, during their latter stages the level of poverty actually rose, and it was clear that the figures for measurement do not work as well as they should.

The Government are committed to eradicating child poverty and to the targets that we set up, but we are also interested in developing better measures through a consultation that will be launched this autumn.

[Pauline Latham]

Does the Secretary of State agree that if we are going to tackle child poverty, we must tackle its root causes?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. One problem with some of the ways in which child poverty is measured is that not enough credence is given to the fact that we need to get beyond the simple point about money, and look into what causes some families to remain persistently in poverty. Although the latest figures show that relative poverty fell by 2% over the past year, I do not try to claim any point of success because levels of absolute poverty remained flat. The reason relative poverty fell is that during the major recession the overall economy fell as well, but that is no way to measure whether people are in poverty or not.

[Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab)]

I am sure that in the recent past the Secretary of State has met non-governmental organisations such as Save the Children, the Children’s Society and Barnardo’s. Does he intend to meet those organisations during his consultation period to hear their genuine concerns about the change in the measurement of child poverty, and the difficulties it will cause that may distort outcomes at the end of the process?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman. We are consulting widely with those organisations, and when we introduce the consultation process we want to hear from them all about how best to look at the issue of measurement so that the effect of what we do is felt by those who need it most. We are taking the recommended steps suggested by Save the Children, and we are committed to eradication. Universal credit is critical to the process of taking some 900,000 adults and children out of poverty, which we should all support.

Topical Questions

[Mrs Linda Riordan (Halifax) (Lab/Co-op)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

I pay tribute, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey) has done, to our Paralympic athletes, whose feats we have watched over the past fortnight. They have impressed us all and excited us by the very idea of competition, as well as overcoming their major difficulties. Next week my Department will publish the responses of thousands of disabled people to the “Fulfilling Potential” consultation that was launched earlier this year. Changing perceptions is key to helping disabled people overcome the barriers they face, as is tackling discrimination wherever it occurs.

[Mrs Riordan]

Will the Minister explain why so many people with Parkinson’s disease, such as my constituent Ian Barraclough, face endless form filling and bureaucracy to get the money to which they are entitled? Are welfare reforms failing when such people are failed?

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[Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab)]

May I associate myself and my hon. Friends with the Secretary of State’s words of congratulations to our extraordinary Paralympians, who have simply dazzled us over the past couple of weeks?

I am delighted to see that the Secretary of State has survived the enthusiastic support of his friends in the Treasury, but may I press him on the price of his survival? When universal credit is fully rolled out in 2017, the Office for Budget Responsibility says that the extra costs will be £3.1 billion. The Treasury in its budget says that the price must be no more than £2.5 billion. With whose estimate does the Secretary of State agree?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The OBR agrees with me and I—strangely enough—agree with the Treasury. Our view is that we will roll this programme out at a cost of £2.5 billion per year. as originally estimated. I think the right hon. Gentleman is referring to a partial statement in a document produced before March by the OBR, and for the sake of the House I will read what it actually says. Although the OBR originally looked at this and wondered whether £3.1 billion would be reasonable, it has

“adjusted this down to £2.5 billion as the Government has stated in the Budget that final decisions on policy design”

are essentially now made.

[Mr Byrne]

I am afraid the Opposition simply cannot accept a think-tank set up by the Treasury putting the figure at £3.1 billion and the Treasury, in the March Budget, revising it down to £2.5 billion. The Secretary of State must accept, as I am sure many in the House do, that an extra £600 million will have a huge impact on whether people will be better off in work or on benefits. The Treasury clearly believes there is a state of chaos around universal credit, as do the Cabinet Office and No. 10. Surely it is time he tells the House exactly what is going on, and sets before us the business case that he is trying to keep secret from us. Is there something he is trying to hide?

[Mr Speaker]

Order. We have a lot of business to get through.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

There is absolutely nothing to hide—[Interruption.] No, no. We are committed to the £2.5 billion all the way through and we will deliver universal credit on time, as it is and on budget. Any time he would like, he is welcome to come into the office and look through some of our business matters, as is his colleague, the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms). I will show him how we are on time, on target and on budget.

The right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) did rather jump the gun. He referred over the weekend to universal credit as a car crash in the making. I need no advice from the man who produced the biggest car crash in British economic history.

[Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con)]

T10. The Secretary of State will be aware that Bluewater shopping centre in my constituency recently announced a further 1,500 jobs to add to the jobs of 7,500 people who are employed there. Will he accept my invitation to visit Bluewater with me to see first hand the job creation that this Government have helped to make possible?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I look forward to visiting my hon. Friend and shall definitely come. He gives us a great reminder—the Opposition do not like this very much—of the three-quarters improvement in employment, and of falling unemployment and benefit claimant numbers. More importantly, as a direct result of what the Government have done in our welfare reforms, there is a lower number of economically inactive people than at almost any time since those records began.

[Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)]

T2. As other hon. Members have mentioned, the introduction of universal credit will mean that housing benefit will be paid not directly to landlords but to tenants, and that it will be paid monthly rather than fortnightly, causing tenants to go into substantial arrears. Does the Secretary of State agree that, when assessing whether a claimant is vulnerable enough to be exempted from monthly payments and receiving their housing element directly, it should be standard practice to consider the feedback of third parties such as social services and voluntary sector services as well as claimants?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I do, yes. We want to pay people directly, and we already pay local housing allowance to such tenants directly, which the hon. Gentleman and all hon. Members should remember. The vast majority cope with that payment—they are very similar. The point is this: we do not intend to cause problems, but the more we continue to treat people in receipt of benefits like children, the less likely they will be able to cope when they go to work. Those who can absolutely must get on to that payment schedule, but we will obviously talk to all the bodies to which he referred to ensure that we identify those who cannot. If people cannot get on to that schedule, we want to surround them with help and support to find out why they cannot manage their payments, and to rectify that rather than just throw money at them.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

I thank the Minister for his assurances that the implementation of universal credit is on time. Will he confirm that it is on track to reduce child poverty by 350,000? As hon. Members will recall, child poverty rose sharply in the previous Parliament.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

It is good to see my hon. Friend—as usual, I absolutely agree with him. I can assure him that universal credit is on time and on budget. I want to stay to see it through and ensure that we deliver it on time.

[Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)]

T3. I am contacted every day by vulnerable constituents bruised, battered and sometimes made ill by the Secretary of State’s Department trying to force them off benefits that they desperately need. He knows that huge sums of benefits go unclaimed. What is he doing to ensure that those on benefits understand their full entitlement, particularly in respect of Warm Front payments, on which I understand there will be an underspend this year?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I agree. The hon. Lady raises an important point about an area of work—I was just talking to my ministerial colleague about it—that universal credit should help to rectify and improve dramatically, because putting everything into one location will allow us to target it correctly on the intended recipients. One of the biggest problems is that the complexity of the system does not allow that to happen, meaning that lots of people fall through the cracks.

[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

Universal credit will be the greatest revolution in the benefits system for more than a generation. Will my right hon. Friend ensure that every Member has the opportunity, between now and the introduction of universal credit, to get to grips with its minutiae, so that we can be confident of ensuring that our constituents understand how it will work?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I will follow through on that very good suggestion. We are already consulting. My hon. Friend might be aware that in July we had a series of consultations in the Committee Rooms with Members of the other place and of this House. We intend to continue that consultation and to set up demonstrations of how it works at the front end and of what they will need to do. We are determined to ensure that Members understand how to claim it—I hope that some of them may have to use it in due course.

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

T4. We were told that universal credit would ensure that every additional hour that people worked would pay. Is the Secretary of State aware of concerns of the Children’s Society and others that many thousands of families face a cliff edge at the point when eligibility for free school meals kicks in? What is he doing to ensure that families do not lose out or find themselves better off working fewer hours?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

We are discussing that with the Department for Education and others, and consulting the relevant bodies and interest groups outside. We are looking for the best way of integrating the process to eradicate such problems and cliff edges in order to create a seamless process that allows people smoothly to engage and improve the quality of their lives, rather than having to negotiate at the edges of those difficulties.

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

The Secretary of State knows that I fully support his introduction of a benefits cap and his measures to ensure that people are always better off in work, but does he concede that some people are still better off on benefits than other people in work and that to tackle that issue we need to reduce the cap even further?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

It is interesting, of course, because I have had correspondence from people throughout the country saying that we should reduce the cap because it is too high. We have introduced the cap at this level because we think it is fairest—it ensures that average earnings are not exceeded by people who are out of work and that people who pay their taxes do not feel that they are paying them to people who do not work as hard as they do.

[Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)]

T5. A constituent has written to me stating that she has had terrible trouble finding work because she has a daughter under the age of six and has child care needs. She has visited Jobcentre Plus but has been told that jobs in term time are few and far between. She asks whether the Government have studied the situation in France, where 65% of women with children under the age of six are in work.

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[Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)]

In response to the question from my right hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) about the high tax being paid by sacked Remploy staff on their redundancy payments, the Minister gave an encouraging reply and said that the matter would be dealt with as soon as possible. Will the Secretary of State confirm that that means the money will be returned to those sacked staff in the current tax year?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I fully support the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey), and I really welcome her arrival. She said that the matter was being looked into right now, and she will receive my full support while that happens.

[Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con)]

The Government are piloting a scheme in my constituency in which the young unemployed who have never worked will be required to do voluntary work in return for their benefits. Does my hon. Friend agree that that will be good for the long-term job prospects of the young people concerned, and good for confidence in the benefits system, in showing that people will not get something for nothing?

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[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

I am delighted that the Secretary of State has announced that advice will be given to vulnerable claimants on how to spend universal credit. Who will provide such advice in deeply rural areas in which there are no jobcentres and no access to citizens advice bureaux?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I can assure my hon. Friend that we will work closely with local councils—whom we are consulting right now—and all those involved, including those distributing the social fund, at local level. We will also talk to local groups involved in credit advice and local poverty groups, as well as ensuring, ourselves, through the jobcentres, that those claimants get that advice. They will get that advice. We will work with them, identify them and ensure that they improve the situation they are in.

[Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)]

Will the Secretary of State explain why, when disabled people are justifiably being applauded the length and breadth of this land, he has chosen this time to close Remploy factories that employ thousands of disabled people? Will he withdraw those closures and put an end to that hypocrisy?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

May I say to the hon. Gentleman that the process was started by his Government? It was they who closed 29 centres. The difference is that they never put in place any support measures for unemployed Remploy factory workers. We, however, are spending £320 million and adding another £15 million to that to ensure that, with the new programme, we try to get them back into mainstream work. It was the lobby groups that wanted us to do this, because they do not like segregated employment.