Disabled People

Jane Ellison Excerpts

Wednesday 10th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)]

First, I thank all the Members who have contributed to today’s Opposition day debate. I particularly thank my colleagues who have spoken. My hon. Friend the Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) highlighted yet again some of the difficulties related to the work capability assessment and Atos, as he consistently has for many months. I pay particular tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke), a former shadow spokesperson on disability issues. He bears the scars of trying to get the first Disability Discrimination Act through the House in the teeth of many years of consistent opposition from the then Government. He stands well regarded among many disabled people for the challenges that he took up on their behalf.

I also thank my hon. Friends the Members for East Lothian (Fiona O'Donnell) and for Gateshead (Ian Mearns), my right hon. Friend the Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) and my hon. Friends the Members for Oldham East and Saddleworth (Debbie Abrahams), for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi), for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) and for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore).

I have highlighted my right hon. and hon. Friends’ contributions, and once again we have seen a certain level of inactivity and disregard among Government Members for debates on disability issues. Three Members have spoken from the Government Benches, and I will come to their comments, but those of us who have attended these debates over the past year or so will recognise that today’s poor turnout and low number of contributions from Government Members is not unusual. That is either because of inactivity, or because they just could not care, or—maybe I will be generous—because they are so embarrassed that they cannot come and defend their own Government’s policies in this Chamber or Westminster Hall.

The Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey), will know that this is not the first time that Members have asked for a cumulative impact assessment on how Government changes are affecting disabled people. Indeed, my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead, who unfortunately is not in his place at the moment, secured a debate on the matter in December.

We have found out one or two interesting facts today. We now have a Minister of State, the hon. Member for Fareham (Mr Hoban), who refuses to meet Members of Parliament unless he has set down the conditions beforehand. Frankly, that is pretty unheard of. I have never come across a Minister who wants the terms of reference—the “positive arguments”, as he put it—before he engages in a discussion. Surely a Minister who is advocating a policy should be prepared to discuss it with Members and representatives of their constituents in private conversation. [Interruption.] No, I say to the Minister that if he wants to be seen as a good, listening Minister, he needs to change his style and start to meet Members of Parliament.

We have heard from colleagues from all over the country. The debate was prompted by—

[Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)]

Will the right hon. Lady give way?

[Mrs McGuire]

No, the hon. Lady has not been in the Chamber all day. [Interruption.] She has been attending a Select Committee. Forgive me, but I still will not take her intervention. The hon. Lady was not here when the Minister made his comment—

[Jane Ellison]

Will the right hon. Lady give way?

[Mrs McGuire]

I will not be sidetracked.

We have seen the number of people who signed Pat’s petition and the WOW petition. The Government’s response to the WOW petition—that they are limited in what cumulative analysis they are able to undertake because of the complexity of the modelling required—is revealing. There are organisations with limited resources that can put together a reasonable cumulative impact assessment. The Minister of State and the Under-Secretary with responsibility for the disabled have a range of experts they can bring to the fore to put together a cumulative impact assessment. Frankly, some of the excuses we have heard today give us an indication of why they do not want to do that.

I hope I am wrong, but the Under-Secretary will no doubt give us two justifications: that Labour did not undertake an assessment; and that it is impossible to do it. The previous Labour Government did not do it because they did not—no previous Government have—put together such a torrent of changes that will impact on the lives of disabled people. [Interruption.] If the Minister of State is so clear that they are positive changes, why is he running away from a cumulative impact assessment? He undermined the Government case on the impossibility of doing an assessment when he answered my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Richard Burden). He said that cumulative impacts are a coalition initiative. Where is the initiative? If he is parading on 4 July that it is a coalition initiative, what has happened to it between 4 July and 9 July? Where has it gone? It has disappeared into the ether like some of his words this afternoon.

What we have heard today is the torrent of change, from the bedroom tax that will not provide an extra bedroom to accommodate equipment a disabled child might need, the families of disabled children who will be £1,300 per year less well off than they were under the old system, to the changes in ESA and the abolition of DLA, with no recognition that even those who are not “the most severely disabled”—the words the Minister will always use—still have additional costs because of their disability.

The hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) said that he was angry. I was sorely disappointed by his contribution, because he attempted to paint the people who want to talk about a cumulative impact assessment as extremists. I hope he is not saying that Disability Rights UK, the Joint Committee on Human Rights, the Equality and Human Rights Commission, the Royal National Institute of Blind People, Mind, Scope, Leonard Cheshire Disability and Carers UK among others, including tens of thousands of people who signed Pat’s petition, are extremists.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jane Ellison Excerpts

Monday 1st July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Esther McVey]

Of the nearly 13,000 people who have started on Work Choice, a third—30%—have stayed in work. That situation has improved, but we want to do more, so we are starting the “disability confident” campaign, which will, we hope, help to achieve better outcomes.

[Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)]

Will the Minister confirm that disabled people can, through Access to Work and as part of the new enterprise allowance, get more equipment that will help them set up their own businesses?

[Esther McVey]

My hon. Friend is correct. We have extended the new enterprise allowance to help disabled entrepreneurs with support from Access to Work and she will be pleased to know that more than half a million disabled people have now set up their own businesses.

Pensions Bill

Jane Ellison Excerpts

Monday 17th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Byrne]

It is hard to refute my hon. Friend’s argument. I suppose we must look at the position of those women together with the consequences of the reforms that the Secretary of State has authored to auto-enrolment—I know he will do that. One of the first decisions he took in the Pensions Act 2011 was to link the threshold for participation in auto-enrolment to the personal allowance. As the personal allowance has gone up, more and more low-paid people have fallen out of the auto-enrolment system. In 2011-12, 600,000 people fell out of auto-enrolment, and another 100,000 in 2012-12. In 2013-14, 420,000 people will fall out of the auto-enrolment system—1.1 million people have been carved out of that system.

This is an incredibly important part of the pensions saving architecture for the future, and I am extremely concerned that a number of low-paid people—more than 1 million, most of them women—have been shut out of the auto-enrolment system. To that mix we now say to 720,000 women who had the misfortune to be born between April 1951 and 1952, that they will not get the new system either.

[Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman look at the work of the Work and Pensions Committee and its pre-legislative scrutiny of the draft Bill? We found in our evidence sessions that the situation was a great deal more complex for that group of women. They are by no means a homogenous group and some of the comparisons with men born on the same day are quite misleading. That came through in the evidence sessions, and I caution the right hon. Gentleman to look at the Committee’s report on the draft Bill.

[Mr Byrne]

I very much hope that the hon. Lady will be on the Bill Committee to ensure that such arguments are fully rehearsed. I am worried that an injustice is being perpetrated on these women, which is why it is incumbent on us all to search every possible option to help ensure that they can be included and not excluded, particularly in the context of changes to auto-enrolment that have moved 1.1 million people out of that future.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jane Ellison Excerpts

Monday 20th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hoban]

First, if someone is found fit for work, they should be eligible for jobseeker’s allowance. The hon. Lady will be aware, as I am, of some of the hardship arrangements that are in place to help people, but it is absolutely right to try to encourage those claiming incapacity benefit to be reassessed, to ensure that those who are fit for work can get back into work, rather than be written off and face a lifetime of inactivity, as happened under previous Governments.

[Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)]

More broadly, when the Select Committee on Work and Pensions looked at this issue, we were interested in claimants’ experience of face-to-face interviews and, in particular, claimants with mental health problems. Will the Minister update the House on his assessment of those areas?

[Mr Hoban]

As a member of the Work and Pensions Committee, my hon. Friend speaks knowledgeably about this issue. When the employment and support allowance was introduced under the previous Government, a third of those with a mental health condition received it. As a consequence of the reforms we have introduced, that number has now gone up to 43%.

Budget Resolutions and Economic Situation

Jane Ellison Excerpts

Friday 22nd March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Byrne]

I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) will speak later and will provide the Secretary of State with a full answer on that. I repeat, however, that if the Government do not make refinements to the Bill, we will move the necessary amendments. I am glad that the independent review has been legally sanctioned in the Bill. We will ensure that it is used to get to the bottom of what is going on, and I am sure he will co-operate.

Just as bad as the lack of action on the Work programme in the Budget were the new surprises about universal credit. The Secretary of State and others have given frequent assurances that the programme is on track, but that raises the question: what on earth is the track? Earlier in the week, we heard in the Financial Times that small businesses were so badly prepared by HMRC for the introduction of real-time information—the method by which payrolls will be updated to calculate universal credit—that the Government have had to U-turn again, only a few days before the change is being introduced. The RTI system for businesses employing fewer than 50 people—covering about 7 million—will be slipped back by six months. There are worries now, not just about the Work programme and the lack of action on bringing down unemployment, but on universal credit.

As I said earlier in the week, the ultimate test for the Secretary of State is this: when he went to Easterhouse all those years ago, he talked about the need for a jobs revolution in this country, but if we now look at the 1% most-unemployed estates in our country, we see that unemployment has not fallen over the first half of the Parliament but gone up. It has gone up in three quarters of estates, and long-term unemployment, which we are so worried about, has risen on two thirds of those estates. This welfare revolution is falling apart, and we needed a Budget for jobs this week to fix it.

The greatest tragedy is who will pay for this failure. We know that a host of cuts, not least the bedroom tax, that are arriving in a couple of weeks will hurt some of the most vulnerable people in our country. Yesterday in Great Yarmouth, together with Lara Norris, I met a woman called Sandra who had cerebral palsy. She has brought up five children, but for reasons of her disability she sleeps separately from her partner, who is her carer. She will be hit by this bedroom tax in a couple of weeks. She now has to take decisions about switching off the heating for half the week because she can no longer afford to heat her home. She has to go to bed and snuggle up in an electric blanket in order to stay warm. That is what is happening in our country, yet these cuts will start on the same day as Britain’s richest citizens are given a tax cut. It is wrong and we should have had action in the Budget to reverse it.

[Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)]

Labour’s general election manifesto contained a commitment to tackle the rising housing benefit bill. Given that Labour has opposed every measure this Government have introduced, what did the right hon. Gentleman have in mind?

[Mr Byrne]

Perhaps the hon. Lady could remind us how much the housing benefit bill was projected to rise in Wednesday’s Budget.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jane Ellison]

Answer the question.

[Mr Byrne]

The housing benefit bill is going up by more than £1 billion, because policies such as the bedroom tax will cost more than they save. I cannot remember how many people will be hit by it in the hon. Lady’s constituency, but they will be interested to know that she voted for it. The truth, as she will know, is that those hit by the bedroom tax will have to move to the private rented sector or become homeless. Neither will cost the public purse less; they will cost it more. What we needed in the Budget was not a spare home subsidy; what we needed was action to reverse the hated bedroom tax.

[Jane Ellison]

The right hon. Gentleman has not answered the question. Given that Labour has opposed every measure this Government have introduced to reform welfare and housing benefit, what did he have in mind when that commitment went into the Labour manifesto?

[Mr Byrne]

What we need to bring down the housing benefit bill is to build more homes. That is why we have said that the 4G licences and half the bank bonus tax should be spent on building homes. The Deputy Prime Minister—the hon. Lady’s right hon. Friend—admits that capital spending was cut too fast. I look forward to hearing her justify to her constituents who will hit by the bedroom tax why they should pay £14 a week extra while millionaires get a £2,000 a week tax cut.

--- Later in debate ---

[Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) (Lab)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in today’s debate, and I make no apology for focusing the first half of my remarks on the north-east and on the Budget’s impact on my constituents. I had hoped for a Budget for the whole country, but I fear that the north-east is being left behind.

We have a lot to be proud of in the north-east. We are the country’s No. 1 car producing region, with one in three cars made on Wearside by Nissan. We have a strong record on exports and our world-class universities attract students from throughout Britain, and indeed from throughout the world. However, unemployment rates remain a considerable source of concern. In the last year in my constituency there has been a 96% increase in long-term unemployment, with an increase of 108% for young people. The situation for those aged 25 and over who have been claiming jobseeker’s allowance for more than two years is even more stark: there has been a 600% increase.

The unemployment rate in my constituency and throughout the north-east is higher than in May 2010, and the north-east continues to have the highest unemployment rate of any region. We witnessed in the past the devastating consequences of long-term unemployment, particularly among young people, and Ministers cannot afford to be complacent and just hope for the best. My region needs a Government willing to take action, not repeat the mistakes of the past.

Figures from the House of Commons Library also show a significant increase in the proportion of working men in part-time work in the north-east—up 27% since 2007-08. I know from local trade union representatives that they are doing all that they can to work with employers to protect jobs, but that often comes at the cost of reduced hours and pay cuts. This proportionate increase in part-time male workers places greater strain on families who are already struggling to make ends meet, and it goes some of the way to explaining the rising tax credits and housing benefit bill. Families are being forced to turn to the state as hours and pay are cut at the same time as living costs rise, and that is before we consider the impact of under-employment in the economy. The Office for National Statistics estimates that the number of people who are under-employed has risen by 1 million since 2008. That is 1 million more people who want to work more hours, but they are simply not available.

In the remaining time that I have left, I intend to focus my remarks on one of the biggest barriers that parents, particularly mothers, face, and that is child care when returning to work. Affordable and accessible child care is vital to our economic and social success as a nation, allowing parents to work and helping to give children the best possible start in life. But parents face the triple whammy of fewer child care places, rising costs and reduced Government support. The measures set out by the Government in the Budget do not even kick in until the next Parliament and do nothing to help parents now. Even in 2015, the £750 million that the Government have identified pales in comparison with the £7 billion-worth of cuts made to families in this Parliament.

The Government’s plans to water down carer to child ratios will undermine the quality of child care, and are a real cause for concern. The Government’s own adviser, Professor Nutbrown, has today strongly criticised the proposals, saying that they make no sense at all, and that they are likely to lead to worse child care, with too few adults and too many little children. There is no guarantee that the plans will have the desired impact of reducing the cost to parents.

[Jane Ellison]

Child care is of enormous concern to my constituents as well. How would the hon. Lady expand available child care within the same spending envelope?

[Bridget Phillipson]

It is a cause of concern that parents face that squeeze and rising costs, but I am not convinced that changing the ratios is the answer. The Government need to ensure that the proposals do not have the impact of driving down quality and making parents so concerned about leaving their children in child care settings that they opt not to return to work because they are worried about the time that a carer will be able to spend with a child. I agree that this area concerns us all. I am sure that it concerns the hon. Lady’s constituents. We have to get it right, and my worry is that experts say that the Government are not getting it right and will need to look at it again.

In concluding, I want to return to what my constituents needed from the Budget. The OBR has confirmed that by 2015, people will be worse off than in 2010. My constituents will take little comfort from the Budget. They are paying the price of this Government’s economic failure. We needed a Budget to promote jobs and growth and to support families and businesses that are feeling the squeeze. In the north-east we showed considerable resilience in rebuilding and diversifying our economy following the loss of our traditional industries, but we need a Government for the whole nation, and if we are to complete this transition, we need action from the Government, not more of the same failed policies of the past.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Bain]

I will give way in a moment.

With the OBR having confirmed on Wednesday that people will be worse off in 2015 than they were in 2010, the Conservative party will also be unable to revive the 1959 election slogan: “Life’s Better Under the Conservatives”.

I have spoken in pervious Budget debates about the absurd economic theories that have underpinned the Government’s fiscal policies since 2010. As Mark Blyth writes in his recently published work on austerity:

“Austerity is a zombie economic idea because it has been disproven time and again, but it just keeps on coming.”

The central idea behind the Government’s economic policy is that a short-term sacrifice by the British people would produce long-term benefits in growth and a massive reduction in national debt.

There have been plenty of sacrifices demanded by the Chancellor: the average £10.47 a week in reduced support for child care for ordinary families since 2011; the higher VAT, which is costing ordinary families four times more in this Parliament than they will get back through the rise in the personal allowance to £10,000 from next year; the 1% cap on most benefits and tax credits being introduced in weeks, hurting 5.l million working-age households by as much as £5 a week on average; and, most cruelly of all, the vicious bedroom tax. The cumulative loss to ordinary families’ living standards in Scotland resulting from the tax, benefits and wages policies pursued by the Government has been quantified by Landman Economics for the TUC as £28.63 a week, or £1,488 a year, by 2015. What has it all been for? Where is the growth? When will our debts begin to fall during this Parliament? When will living standards begin to rise again for ordinary people?

Since the spending review in 2010, we have seen the third lowest growth in the G20, the fifth worst industrial production in the European Union and the fourth biggest slump in real wages in the EU. The judgment of the Office for Budget Responsibility on the Budget has been brutal—growth downgraded this year and next, by 0.8% of GDP, even since last December’s autumn statement; this Budget adding nothing to growth all the way through to 2018; borrowing £245 billion more than promised in 2010; and the national debt doubled by 2018 if we continue with the Chancellor’s failing plan.

Four years into a recovery, unemployment is stuck at 2.5 million—and is predicted by the OBR to peak at 2.63 million next year—and there are 3.2 million people underemployed in this country, desperate for more hours at work to pay the bills but unable to get them under a flatlining economy.

The Budget should have attempted to secure two aims: first, to boost economic demand to stimulate higher growth in the short term; and, secondly, to begin the process of rebalancing the economy by ending the culture of short-termism and making the fundamental reforms we need in our banking system.

In Scotland, retail sales are falling in a sector that comprises more than three quarters of economic output. Real wages have slumped by 3.2% since autumn 2010. Median wages are more than £3,000 a year lower in real terms since 2009. This week’s OBR projections mean a further loss of £200 a year in wages—four times more than any benefit from the increase in the personal tax allowance next year. The Chancellor should have eased that burden by cutting VAT to 17.5% in the Budget and putting back some of the £480 a year on average that he removed from average families in the June 2010 Budget. He should have done far more on child care costs.

[Jane Ellison]

This is a simple question. The hon. Gentleman has outlined what he would like to have seen in the Budget. Assuming fiscal neutrality, how would he have paid for it?

[Mr Bain]

The shadow Chancellor has said that we would follow a different path. Continuing with the fiscal policy that the Government are pursuing will lead to a doubling of the national debt and a downgrading in growth this year and next. We need to do something different, as I hope the hon. Lady will accept when she makes her contribution.

As I was saying, HMRC has shown that in the year to last December, the amount of additional support, through the tax and benefit system provided to ordinary Scottish families with their child care costs, amounted to a miserly 1p a day extra. For this year, next year and the year after, the message from the Chancellor in the Budget was, “Not a penny more.”

Under the plans unveiled on Tuesday, households require all earners to be working and paying income tax to benefit either from the child care tax relief or the additional resource through universal credit, which will have to be found from elsewhere in the welfare budget. We see the gross unfairness of a two-earner couple with children, working part time on a combined income of £19,000 a year, receiving nothing under the plans, whereas a household with two earners on a combined income of £299,000 a year receives a tax break of £2,400 a year if they have two children. How on earth can that be fair?

The Chancellor should have brought forward more capital investment in the Budget. He should have announced a major social and affordable house building plan to begin this year. All he announced was a plan to reallocate capital spending from 2015, which will be of no help to the struggling construction sector now. He should have taken the opportunity to scrap the bedroom tax affecting nearly 90,000 households in Scotland.

The Chancellor has spent the past few months searching for escape velocity for the UK economy. Wednesday was the day when he finally crashed to earth. He will not change course because he puts his pride before this nation’s economic fall. He would rather that the living standards of millions were diminished than admit the scale of his mistake or take action to put it right. Only with a new policy to promote growth and boost investment will we generate the tax revenues to cut our debt. After this Budget, that can come only with the election of a new Government to replace this disastrous coalition.

--- Later in debate ---

[Steve Baker]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I came here to speak today because I expected to have 20 to 30 minutes, and if I had, I would have given him a full explanation. In many ways, I am trying to help him. If he looked at price inflation going back to 1750, he would discover that for the whole of my lifetime, since 1971, we have been living in an inflationary era unprecedented in industrial times. That is why the banking system was broken. If money is pumped into the economy at that rate, that is bound to create asset price bubbles. An independent Bank of England therefore found itself controlling the money supply by looking at price inflation without looking at house prices, which were rushing away. That was bound to end in catastrophe.

Let me explain the problem with the Chancellor’s policy on credit market intervention. When we look across the range of things that were intended, we can see that there is a clear objective, which is to restart the process of credit expansion—credit creation—into the economy. In the short term, that is indeed bound to create an increase in trade and housing and to create a small housing boom. The problem is the damage it does to the rest of the economy. If I had more time, I would talk at some length about the problem being that for far too long people have persisted in believing that there is a simple mechanical linkage between aggregate demand and total employment, but unfortunately that is not true. What matters is the distribution of employment and the use of capital across the structure of the economy and through time.

[Jane Ellison]

I am enjoying my hon. Friend’s argument and would like to hear him expand it further to talk about the effect of the limit on the amount of time that this measure is being given.

[Steve Baker]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Time is crucial not only in this debate but in the economy.

When one looks at Mark Carney’s speech of February last year and at what the Government are doing, it is pretty clear what is going to be done. Inflationary expectations will be anchored to the 2% target, and the Bank will be given a more relaxed reporting regime. It is clear from Mark Carney’s remarks that he intends to use monetary instruments. Let us face it: this is about money creation. He is going to increase the supply of money in order to pump up the GDP figure and so manipulate people’s expectations. It is hoped that by manipulating people’s expectations the economy will come back just in time to deal with the money creation process and get inflation back on target. The whole thing is predicated on the Bank of England’s ability to manipulate the expectations of the 65 million people in the United Kingdom.

Somebody such as Stewart Linford, who has to live in the moment as an entrepreneur, keep employing people, and keep creating and exporting wonderful furniture, deserves better than to be deliberately and systematically misled by a big player such as the Bank of England knowingly manipulating expectations through monetary policy in order to produce particular outcomes—if it is lucky and expectations of inflation do not get out of control. Last time I spoke in the Budget debate, I explained that if the Bank loses control of inflationary expectations, the bond market bubble could burst and that could then lead to a very fast rise in interest rates, which it might then have to combat by further printing money.

Government Members know me well for always carrying on my person 1 ounce of fine silver and a $100 trillion dollar note from Zimbabwe. In the end, our society is based on money. One side of every transaction is money. If there is something wrong with money, there is something wrong with the entire economy. Right now, the reason we are in this mess is that we do not have good money—we have bad money. One can hold bad money—bad politics—in one’s hand. If we get into a position where we just borrow, borrow and borrow, with no ability to repay, creating credit out of thin air, as was done in 13 years—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) is smiling; I really do not know why, because 65 million people in this country are having a miserable time. [Interruption.] I was not in Parliament at that time. If he had listened to what I have said and read what I have written throughout all my time, he would find that I have consistently advocated this point: that the problem with the Keynesians and the monetarists is that they neglect the importance of time and the structure of capital. That is what is going on again, and it will end badly.

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[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

The Budget shows that this Government’s policies are beginning to work in the context of what Governments can realistically do to help an economy. The right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) suggested a fantasy world in which Governments can send a Chancellor to the Chamber on a Wednesday morning to press a growth button and introduce a new policy that will suddenly do this, that and the next thing. That is what some rather poor economists thought in the 1960s, but they have been proved comprehensively wrong. What Governments can do is set the framework within which businesses and individuals can lead economic growth. Governments cannot of themselves—they even failed to do this in the Soviet Union—create real growth just by the fiat of the Government.

How can we see that the Government’s policy is beginning to work? Two crucial statistics are now available. The first is the reduction in Government spending—the cut from 47.4% of GDP to 43.6%. That is a substantial reduction in the Government’s share of the nation’s income. It has taken some years to achieve and it needs to be reduced further, because, on average, it is very hard for Governments to get more than 38% of GDP in taxation—if it remains at 43%, there will still be a big deficit—but it is a huge move in the right direction to create stability in the economy, which will then allow businesses and individuals to lead economic growth.

[Jane Ellison]

Does my hon. Friend therefore share my surprise that the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) said from the Opposition Front Bench earlier that the Government were making no progress in rebalancing the economy?

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

Opposition Members are talking about their new path. There was a Shining Path in one country at one point, but that was not very successful, although the Opposition are probably looking for the Via Dolorosa. We are definitely making progress.

I want to pick the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) up on his wonderful reference to the 1930s. I was pleased that he reminded us of our splendid slogans, which I will certainly use in my election campaign. I think that this was a “Safety First” Budget, and quite right too. What the country needs is genuine prudence, rather than the prudence of the late ’90s and early 2000s.

Jobseekers (Back to Work Schemes) Bill

Jane Ellison Excerpts

Tuesday 19th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab)]

This is a very dark day for the once-proud DWP, and it beggars belief that this once-proud Department has found itself in this position under the Secretary of State’s leadership. The organisation of back-to-work schemes is now in a state of total chaos. Once upon a time, back in 2010, the Secretary of State boasted that the Work programme would be the

“most comprehensive, integrated work programme in existence, certainly, since the war”.—[Official Report, 22 November 2010; Vol. 519, c. 17.]

What do we have instead? We have a Work programme that is literally worse than doing nothing. Just 2.3% of people referred on to the programme have found sustained jobs. As has been said, the Public Accounts Committee stated—

[Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)]

rose—

[Mr Byrne]

The hon. Lady will want to reflect on this. The Public Accounts Committee said this about the Work programme:

“Actual performance was even below the Department’s assessment of the non-intervention rate—the number of people that would have found sustained work had the Work programme not been running.”

Maybe the hon. Lady can tell me whether she is proud of that.

[Jane Ellison]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way, but I was going to tell him that this morning the Work and Pensions Committee was at Willesden Jobcentre Plus. I asked the staff running the programme there, helping people get back to work, how they felt about their efforts being described as worse than nothing. They said it was deeply demoralising and incredibly insulting to their efforts on behalf of the unemployed.

[Mr Byrne]

The truth is that jobcentre staff have so little confidence in the Work programme that they are not referring people to Work programme contactors at anywhere near the rate the Department has estimated. That is the reality of how jobcentre staff feel.

We have had universal credit now beginning its descent into universal chaos, and now we have the news that the regulations designed to encourage jobseekers to take work were so badly drafted that the Court of Appeal struck them down and the Department may as a result be on the hook to repay £130 million in sanctions. The judges could not have been more unequivocal. Here is what they had to say:

“The 2011 Regulations must be quashed.”

I therefore put it to the Secretary of State that this is a day of shame for his Department. The House of Commons Library cannot find an instance of DWP legislation being struck down in this fashion since 1996, under the last Conservative Government. If the Secretary of State had delusions of adequacy, they have been swept away by today’s proposed legislation.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jane Ellison Excerpts

Monday 11th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)]

The Minister might be aware that during the pre-legislative scrutiny of the Bill there has been considerable confusion about how much some of these women would lose. There is considerable misunderstanding out there, so could he provide some clarity in this area?

[Steve Webb]

I am looking forward to two hours with the Select Committee this afternoon after this warm-up. My hon. Friend is absolutely right, in that some of the women in the group we are talking about will miss out on nearly £20,000 of pension if they were to be treated the same as a man born on the same day. I think that very few of them would think that a good deal.

Universal Credit

Jane Ellison Excerpts

Wednesday 6th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)]

The Committee, of which I am a member, identified those real concerns, but does the hon. Lady not agree that there are also opportunities? In my constituency, where English is a second language for many, digital by default offers the opportunity for translation and other services that will in many ways make a digital interface easier to use than a paper form.

[Dame Anne Begg]

The Government’s whole point in doing this is to make the system easier, so hopefully it will be. If it is not easier at the end of the process, we really will have got everything wrong. In the process of introducing this fully, the Government will obviously have to address some of the concerns that hon. Members have raised.

The Government’s response indicates that they expect only 50% to claim online and about 5% to get face-to-face interviews, which means 45% will claim through the telephony system. Perhaps the Minister can explain the wording in the Government’s response. It states:

“Our target is that 50% of claims which can be made online will be made online in October 2013 when Universal Credit is launched nationally.”

I am not sure that I understand that sentence. Does it mean 50% of the total number of people who will make a claim, or 50% of those who can make it online, which will not be everybody. I am not exactly sure what proportion the Government are talking about.

The Government’s response mentions face-to-face interviews, which is good, but they are still for only 5% of cases, and they give not a hint about where the interviews might take place and what proportion of them are likely to be home visits. After all, a large number of people in the universal credit cohort will have severe disabilities. They might receive other benefits that they have claimed previously, but they will also be in the universal credit cohort.

I am also glad to see that jobcentres are to have IADs—internet access devices—which sounds great. The Government response trumpets the fact that there will be computers in Jobcentre Plus offices. However, if we divide the number of computers by the number of Jobcentre Plus offices, we find that it works out at about three terminals per office, and I am not sure whether that will answer some of the questions about access to computers. Also, it appears that wi-fi is not yet available in Jobcentre Plus offices, although that is planned, as it should be available. Many people do not have a computer at home and will need to access their claim form through a public-access computer, whether in Jobcentre Plus or not. They will need help, and the Government’s response is not very clear about that. It does say that staff will be available, but it is very vague: it does not say how many or how much time they will have. Jobcentre Plus staff are already overworked. Will they have the time to sit down alongside someone until they have filled in their whole claim, or will they just get the screen up and leave them to it? For many people, that would not be enough help.

The Government say in their response that they are liaising with local authorities to supply help. However, we all know that local authority budgets are already being squeezed year on year, and that a lot of welfare rights officers, where councils have them, are disappearing, if they have not already done so. There is also a squeeze on organisations such as Citizens Advice. This is such a big undertaking that it is incumbent on the Government to make sure that this help, of the necessary quantity and quality, is there and that people know how to access it. It has occurred to me that as some local authority staff will no longer be employed in administering housing benefit, they might be an experienced resource that the Government could call on to act as advisers in providing the help that many people will need to make an online claim.

Another big area of concern about UC is that it will be paid once a month into a single bank account for each household. The Government’s response says that the Secretary of State has powers to vary the frequency of payments, but this would be time limited. It also says that the Department for Work and Pensions will try to identify claimants with, for instance, mental health or addiction problems who might not manage monthly payments, but suggests that help will be provided for only a limited period. The Government seem to think that a drug addict will somehow be able to learn how to budget properly after a couple of months. The essential problem is that getting a whole month’s money in their hand at once might be too tempting. I do not think that what the Government describe as “transition to monthly payments” after

“getting help with monthly budgeting”

is going to work in practice. Will the Minister clarify that?

--- Later in debate ---

[Nigel Mills]

Despite what some people think, Amber Valley is not in Wales so I am afraid that the use of the Welsh language is not an issue I have to worry myself or my constituents with. I will leave that point for the Minister.

The next area of concern is the single monthly payment per household, and making that replicate what most people in work receive as a salary is a sensible step. We are not talking about people who only receive benefits; people in work will receive universal credit on top of that, and we are trying to encourage them to work more hours and get more money, at which point their benefit will drop. In an ideal world, a single monthly payment that matches timing with salary must be a step forward. We are trying to help people get back into work and not face extra barriers created by the benefit system. Clearly there are issues, however, and some people will not be able to cope with one single monthly payment. We must consider how we will help them through that, deal with the exemption system, and find out that they are not coping before they get into so much debt that they cannot get out of it. It will be interesting to see the progress on new bank accounts, especially the jam jar system, although we have not yet heard how many providers are willing to offer such a system.

[Jane Ellison]

I am glad that my hon. Friend mentioned jam jar accounts because they are important. We have spoken previously about this issue, but it is one on which we are all urging the Minister to give the banks a really good kick. As I said in a previous speech, such accounts are one demonstrable way that the banks could make amends for what the public perceive to be a pretty poor show over the past few years.

[Nigel Mills]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. We need to know soon how many providers are interested in that system and what the Government’s proposals are. People will be rolling into universal credit soon, and we must understand what their bank accounts will look like to ensure the system works. I have heard lobbying groups present interesting ideas about the real advantages of the jam jar system. People can choose to have their rent payment moved into a separate account so that it goes out on the right day and they cannot accidentally spend it on something else. Applications that use payment cards or jam jar bank accounts can produce useful solutions. Perhaps we can introduce a system under which people have the chance to choose their preferences. People must choose to set money aside for certain bills, rather than be forced in some draconian state-controlled manner and told how to spend their money, but an update on the issue would be useful.

I also want to consider the impact of this system on people who are self-employed. It is clearly right that they state each month what profit they have made so that any benefit they are due can be worked out. It is equally right that we encourage them to work hard and make a minimum level of profit and not somehow get round the system that applies to people looking for paid employment. I am a little concerned that we will end up with two different reporting and accounting systems. For universal credit people will have to report their monthly profit or income based on some kind of calculation, yet for tax purposes they will have to use a completely different calculation. That could leave them with two different sets of books and calculations which could be hugely complicated and they may end up with some true-up at the end. Hopefully, people can get some assurance that what is expected for universal credit is the same as HMRC expects at the end of the year. It could be nice and simple—people could hit a “total” button on the universal credit system and it will say what their annual profits have been.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nick de Bois]

I am glad to have spirited into being some Front-Bench dialogue.

[Jane Ellison]

My hon. Friend is right that we must be conscious that these are vulnerable people, which is what the Committee report was about. Exaggerating for political purposes the possible problems, which we have all acknowledged, runs the danger of most alarming and leading astray the people we most want to help.

[Nick de Bois]

My hon. Friend makes extremely well the point I made so badly.

The shadow Secretary of State knows the history of Government IT systems. Given that history, it is inevitable that there will be some genuine concerns. When I was rolling out IT systems in my company, it filled me with horror; I knew we would end up exceeding the budget and that the timetable would come under threat. In those days, we dealt with it by shadowing the new system with the old system. I give credit to the Government for not having gone for the big bang effect and for seeking to roll out the system gradually. Had I been in their position, I would probably have made the same decision, but the proof will be in the pudding. Nevertheless, they have learned from previous mistakes. I was delighted to hear the Minister’s confident assessment, which I have no reason to doubt, and I think they have taken every reasonable step. Will there be problems? I am certain of it, but I do not think that they will be insurmountable.

[Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)]

I acknowledge the good work that my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg), the Chair of the Work and Pensions Committee, has done on benefits and the implementation of universal credit, particularly the impact on vulnerable people. The Committee highlighted the fact that vulnerable people are usually benefit claimants and so will be subject to the overhaul of the benefits system, and that many communities, and particularly those who will need it the most, will be deeply impacted by the online universal credit—admittedly, a telephony service will be available—because they will have great difficult accessing it.

It is important that the DWP can implement the IT system. Back in 2008, in my former life as Minister for Social Development in Northern Ireland, I introduced a parallel system for household fuel payments. It was outside the benefits system, but it required the help of the DWP and was an extremely difficult job. There were people who fell outside it who should have been eligible, but because of the nature of the IT system things proved difficult. I say that by way of warning. Also, owing to topographical difficulties, some claimants might not have broadband access, which raises issues about payment methods, and then there is the question of passported benefits.

My party has been against the introduction of universal credit from the outset. It is a misguided and draconian change to the benefits system that will neither save money nor encourage people into employment nor protect the most vulnerable. We are for welfare reform, but not for unfair reform. We recognise the need for a simpler, more accessible benefits system, but these reforms are an attack on the most vulnerable and will actually end up costing the taxpayer more through transition and administration costs.

I am extremely concerned about the long-term impact of the tone that the Government have taken throughout this and previous debates on welfare reform. The persecution of those on welfare—labelled “skivers”—is socially divisive and acts to marginalise and ostracise many people suffering disability, illness and impairment. It is casting down the very people whom the Government claim to be encouraging into work.

As the Minister will be aware, social security provision is devolved to Northern Ireland and implemented under a separate system known as parity legislation. In a previous life, I had to implement some of it. Under that system, we normally have little scope for variation, which means that we will be subject to the worst elements of these measures. I welcome the flexibility arrangements the Government introduced in Northern Ireland enabling split payments—two payments a month, rather than one—and payments to be made directly to landlords, rather than to the claimant, but the core of the changes remains and will be extremely damaging for our people and economy.

We need additional flexibility, owing to our high level of disability—a throwback to the troubles, which left people scarred by violence and terrorism—and higher percentage of people dependent on benefits. I ask the Minister and his colleagues to work with the Minister for Social Development in Northern Ireland to introduce that flexibility. Earlier today, I asked the Minister of State in the Northern Ireland Office about this subject in Northern Ireland questions, but his reply left me aghast: he said we should be getting more people into work. That is fine and laudable, if the work opportunities are there, but they are not, so let’s get real. We need to support these people, not marginalise and persecute them. These measures are likely to push more people into poverty and, in doing so, increase the welfare budget.

[Jane Ellison]

I am clearly not as familiar with the situation in Northern Ireland as the hon. Lady, but I do not recognise her description of persecution, marginalisation and ostracism. The Committee accepted that there were definitely some people about whom we were far more worried than others, but we took the general view that the system had a reasonable chance of working for the majority of people, even allowing for implementation issues. I just do not recognise her description of the system.

[Ms Ritchie]

I was saying that there were particular circumstances prevalent in Northern Ireland that perhaps did not exist in other parts of the UK because of the higher number of people who were more vulnerable and dependent on benefits. We are coming out of a conflict situation and, as a result of that legacy of conflict, more people rely on benefits and are, through no fault of their own, unable to access or find work. Those job opportunities, which might exist here in Britain, are not there.

[Jane Ellison]

rose—

[Ms Ritchie]

I would like to finish this point and move on. The third report by the Work and Pensions Committee states:

“We consider that the implementation timetable is ambitious and that there is significant further work to be carried out to ensure that the needs of the most vulnerable claimants can be met.”

Let me turn to the cost of universal credit. The rationale given by the Government is that the legislation is about making work pay and helping people into work. However, the driving motivation appears to be cutting costs, with those on welfare easier to scapegoat than the tax avoiders in society. Moreover, the figures suggest that, rather than saving money, the changes will increase the welfare budget. The Government’s own impact assessment suggested that £2 billion was set aside to fund the transition to universal credit in the 2010 spending review period and that net transfer payments from the Government to households would be around £0.3 billion higher once universal credit was fully implemented and transitional protection exhausted, while the Institute for Fiscal Studies has valued the long-run cost of universal credit at around £1.7 billion in 2014-15 prices. Furthermore, it has been stated that £18 million—£13 million in resource and £5 million in capital—will be delivered to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to cover the costs associated with implementing universal credit

That suggests that the new system will be not just ineffective, but expensive. Experience suggests to me that the costs of such a project are likely to go up rather than down, once the projections meet the reality, as was the case with the change from incapacity benefit to workplace capability assessments. That has been a difficult issue in Northern Ireland and a traumatic experience for those who have been put through it. The resulting volume of appeals—a high proportion of which were successful—illustrates just how ineffective the changes were. I feel—I suppose I say this with a certain level of temerity—that the Government do not seem to be heeding that lesson. I fear that there will be an even more catastrophic impact when universal credit is fully introduced.

I have made it clear that I am against the substance of this welfare reform and its introduction, and I am dubious that it will actually save any money, but I also feel that there are likely to be a number of technical and administrative issues that could be extremely problematic and that we could run into financial problems as the system is rolled out in Northern Ireland in April 2014. I ask the Minister to look at those. I would also ask the Chair of the Committee to look into this and perhaps work with the Social Development Committee in the Northern Ireland Assembly to see whether these issues can be worked through. The project has already been delayed because of IT problems, and I have had very little reassurance that that will not happen again.

Housing Benefit (Under-occupancy Penalty)

Jane Ellison Excerpts

Wednesday 27th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Byrne]

My hon. Friend is right. We have the National Housing Federation to thank for estimates on the amount of arrears, which housing associations now say are going to grow. Some estimates I have seen show that housing associations face up to a quarter of a billion pounds-worth of arrears because of this policy and other changes the Secretary of State is making. At a time when the country’s debt rating has been downgraded, that will make things incredibly difficult for housing associations in delivering on future social housing builds. The bedroom tax will only make the situation worse.

[Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)]

The right hon. Gentleman has slightly moved on from the point he was making about the so-called millionaires give-away, but it is a certainty that Opposition Members will come back to it repeatedly. Will he explain, as he is particularly well placed to do so having been in the Treasury, why it was in only the last 37 days of the Labour Government that any measures were taken to increase taxes on the richest people in this country? If he is going to refer to this issue continually, he should, being a former Treasury Minister, be prepared to explain why that was the case.

[Mr Byrne]

I am happy to do so. It will not have escaped the hon. Lady’s notice that today’s fiscal circumstances are somewhat different from those of the 13 years of the previous Labour Government. She supports—[Interruption.] I will answer her question just as soon as the Government Front Benchers simmer down slightly. The truth is that her Government have delivered a double-dip recession and perhaps worse; they have just presided over a downgrade in the nation’s debt rating; and growth has been flatlining for the past couple of years, which has made the deficit position far worse. This Government are going to borrow more in this Parliament than Labour did in 13 years, so the question now has to be: how is the pain of paying down the deficit to be shared? Labour has always said that there has to be a mixture of growth and sensible public spending cuts—that is how to get the deficit down. What we should not be doing is having a £3 billion tax give-away for Britain’s richest citizens while asking 660,000 people to pay an extra £14 a week. How would she justify that to her constituents?

[Jane Ellison]

That is just not good enough from the right hon. Gentleman. The financial crash happened in 2008 and, by independent agreement, there was already a structural deficit at that time. In order not to bequeath an ever-growing structural deficit and rising debt to another incoming Labour Government or, as it turned out, this coalition Government, no action was taken in the immediate aftermath of the financial crash. Surely he cannot justify that fact.

[Mr Byrne]

If we are to go back over the history, I should say that, as the hon. Lady will know, at that time the Conservative party supported Labour’s spending limits—that was the announcement made by the then shadow Chancellor at the party conference. The question that confronts the country now is: how do we bring the deficit down? Once upon a time, we were told that we were “all in it together” but we now know that the truth is quite the opposite. Once upon a time, the Chancellor said that he was not going to balance the books on the backs of the poor, but now we know the truth—he absolutely is balancing the books on the backs of the poor, starting with £14 a week extra from 660,000 people.

The evidence that this policy is going to cost more than it saves is now staring the Secretary of State in the face, just as I can see it clearly, too. He will have read the reports from all over the country—[Interruption.] Perhaps he will confirm this from a sedentary position. Like me, he will have read the reports from all over the country that have gone to cabinet meetings setting out the impact of his changes to communities up and down the country. The reports could not be clearer and they confirm the substance of the letter leaked by the private secretary to the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government that up to 20,000 people will be made homeless as a result of these changes, and that does not include the impact of the benefit cut.

This policy affects councils like Hull city council, which says that 4,700 tenants will be hit, yet in Hull there are just 73 one-bedroom and two-bedroom properties available to let. There is a shortfall of 4,700 properties for tenants. If they move into the private rented sector or to become homeless, that will cost the taxpayer a fortune. This policy will cost more than it saves, as has been powerfully argued today, and I am not surprised that the Minister of State is no longer prepared to swear by the savings that this policy is supposed to deliver.

Here we have a Department that is at the height of its powers. It has brought us a Work programme that is worse than doing nothing, it has presided over a universal credit system that I understand is on the brink of collapsing into chaos, and now we have a policy that will cost more than it saves. Why? Because the Secretary of State has been rolled over by a downgraded Chancellor and has not had the strength to resist him.

We now have the worst of all worlds. We have a Department bedevilled by an excess of stupidity and an absence of spine. The cost is paid not by the Members on the Government Front Bench but by the 1 million children who will be plunged into poverty by the Secretary of State’s Department and the 3.4 million disabled people who will be hit by his strivers tax. He should instead be bringing to this House proposals that would genuinely bring down the welfare bill by getting more people into work. We now have nearly 1 million young people out of work and nearly 1 million people out of work long term, and that is costing us a fortune. He knows full well that the housing benefit bill is set to rise by £8 billion over the course of this Parliament because of his failure to get people back into jobs.

That is why the Secretary of State should be arguing. He should find some spine and tell the Chancellor that it is about time we had a tax on bankers’ bonuses to build new homes and get people into work. If we said to people in this country that they could not spend more than two years on the dole and that at that stage they had to work, that would be a proper plan for welfare reform and for welfare to work. It would be a real alternative to this policy, which is a cruel and unusual punishment from a cruel and useless Government.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jessica Morden]

My hon. Friend is right that private rent is higher. I will come to that point later.

Although Monmouthshire Housing Association is getting £121,000 in discretionary housing payments, it forecasts that its rent arrears will be about £225,000. The Government have set a budget without knowing whether it will be sufficient and are hiding behind it when asked difficult questions. That is as callous as the bedroom tax itself.

If there is no social housing and a person cannot afford to stay in their home, renting privately might be the only option. However, it is an expensive one. Given that the stated aim of the policy is to save money, the policy clearly has no logic. Although the Government do not seem to care about the human impact of the policy, they might at least look at this issue. A cursory look at the property in my area illustrates the point. The policy is more expensive, even with a reduced local housing allowance. In the Bron Afon study, every single property in Torfaen is more expensive than housing association properties.

Not only will the policy cost more money; the impact on families cannot be overestimated. It is a profound change that will have profound effects. People will have to move away from family members who provide child care, there will be no help for those who foster and the disabled will be hit yet again.

[Jane Ellison]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Jessica Morden]

I will carry on because I believe that the hon. Lady will be speaking later.

This policy will cause family breakdown. That was illustrated graphically to me by two local cases. The first is that of a divorced father in a two-bedroom house who has his kids to stay at the weekend. As he is under 35 he might be expected to share accommodation, with all the child protection issues that that raises. The second case is a mother of four who was rehoused after great turmoil resulting from domestic violence. She now has to uproot herself and her children who are settled in school because one of her children has moved out and the age of the two youngest means that they have to share one room—the definition of a box room, I presume, being a spare room.

There are many issues and no time to do them justice. So far, the Government’s response has been to shrug their shoulders and tell housing associations to be creative. In my experience, housing associations—unlike the Minister—have spoken to their tenants and know the reality. Alongside local authorities and the Welsh Assembly Government housing associations are being creative, but all the creativity in the world cannot alleviate the basic problem that there is no social housing, and payments to local authorities do not even begin to address the issue. If this measure is about saving money it will surely fail.

[Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to take part in this debate although some of the contributions so far have been characterised by exaggeration, which has not been helpful. Given the previous contribution by the hon. Member for Newport East (Jessica Morden) and the lead from those on the Labour Front Bench who say that they will join the nationalists in the Lobby tonight, I certainly expect the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne), when he responds at the end of the debate, to commit the Labour party—[Interruption.] Well, in that case I put the point to Labour Members who wish to speak later in the debate. Will they call on their Front-Bench spokesman to commit that a Labour manifesto would reverse this measure? That is very much what I am hearing from the Labour party and I think all Labour Members who speak in this debate must say where they stand.

We are now closer to the next general election than to the previous one, and it starts to become inadequate for the Labour party to say about everything—[Interruption.] I am addressing my comments to the Labour party because, to be honest and with all due respect, it is easy for the nationalists to say anything they want because they are not likely to form a Government. The Labour party aspires to be the next Government of this country and claims that it is credible on economic matters such as balancing the budget and addressing the deficit. The moment of truth is fast approaching and the Labour party must say what it would do about some of these measures.

[Mr Russell Brown]

rose—

[Jane Ellison]

Let me develop my point a bit further, unless the hon. Gentleman wishes to confirm that he will be calling on those on the Labour Front Bench to make a manifesto commitment on that point.

[Mr Brown]

I appreciate that the hon. Lady came to this House in 2010, but may I tell her something of which she may not be aware? When the Minister who opened for the coalition Government was in opposition, along with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury he condemned the Labour Government time after time when we considered welfare reform and said that we were not doing enough. They have both completely flipped over. They are worse than any of the hon. Lady’s Conservative colleagues because they relish the job they are doing.

[Jane Ellison]

With all due respect, that was not in any sense a response to the challenge I made to Opposition Members.

[Stephen Mosley]

It might help my hon. Friend if I quote something that the shadow Secretary of State for Work and Pensions wrote earlier last year when he said that

“housing benefit alone is costing the UK over £20 billion a year. That is simply too high. Beveridge would have wanted determined action from government to get communities working once again, not least to bring down that benefits bill to help pay down the national debt…He would have wanted reform that was tough-minded, and asked everyone to work hard to find a job.”

Does my hon. Friend agree with the shadow Secretary of State?

[Jane Ellison]

I agree with my hon. Friend and that point underlines the problem of the official Opposition on this issue. To date, the Labour party has voted against something like £83 billion of deficit reduction measures. As we move closer to the next general election, there comes a point where, to be credible, Members must start to say what they would do.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Jane Ellison]

No, I want to develop this point a bit further. The Government have put forward a lot of measures. No one would claim that they are all perfect and thoughtful contributions were made earlier in the debate about areas that the Government need to address. That could be through discretionary housing payment or the rolling review—I welcome the Minister’s reference to that because it is sensible to say that a policy such as this should be kept under review so that the Government can move swiftly to take any action that might be needed. However, that is not the same as blanket opposition to the measures.

As the hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown) said, I am a new Member of the House, but it strikes me that, in the past couple of years, the Labour party has relished the opportunity to oppose everything, but that is not credible. My hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester (Stephen Mosley) referred to the speech of the shadow Secretary of State. He tried to re-establish economic credibility, but he comes to the House week after week and month after month to oppose everything.

There will come a point when Back-Bench Labour Members have to make difficult decisions. My strong suspicion is that reality will dawn on Labour Front Benchers as we approach the election, and they will start to make speeches that begin to reflect something like the economic reality that Britain faces. At that point, the Labour Back Benchers who sit in the Chamber week after week relishing the opportunity to oppose everything and say that the Government’s measures are dreadful must make difficult decisions. One Member said in the debate that we are killing communities. Such exaggeration is grotesque.

[Sheila Gilmore]

rose—

[Jane Ellison]

I will give way to my colleague on the Select Committee on Work and Pensions.

[Sheila Gilmore]

The hon. Lady is, I fear, attempting to defend the indefensible, but her problem is that, despite all the cuts being carried out and the hardship, there is no growth, and debt will rise more than the Chancellor predicted. In other words, the cuts and the hurt are not working.

[Jane Ellison]

I am glad the hon. Lady has given me an opportunity to respond on that point. It was always predicted that debt would rise for most of this Parliament. It is true that that period has had to be extended, but that is not a surprise. The structural deficit is being reduced. To return to an intervention I made on the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill, who spoke for Labour, if Labour had begun to address some of the structural deficit problems when the financial crash hit in 2008, the current Government might not have had to take some of the difficult decisions they are taking now. Housing benefit is a classic example.

[Mr Slaughter]

rose—

[Jane Ellison]

I will be delighted to give way to the hon. Gentleman if he can tell the House why the Labour Government did not introduce measures to bring the housing benefit bill down from 2008 onwards.

[Mr Slaughter]

I understand the hon. Lady’s point—she, like the Conservative party, believes that the poor should pay and the rich should get away with it. Like me, she represents an inner-London constituency. More than 2,000 families in my constituency will be unable to pay their rent because of the measure. At the same time, councils such as Wandsworth and Hammersmith are refusing to build social housing and are selling it off. What is that if not destroying communities? How does she defend it?

[Jane Ellison]

I do not know how the hon. Gentleman can begin to criticise Wandsworth council, which has just set the lowest council tax in the country—it has done so for many years in a row. The difference between Wandsworth council’s band E tax and that of many surrounding councils, and particularly that of many high-spending Labour councils, is enormous—it is the equivalent of a family holiday, a new car or a new three-piece suite. That illustrates the benefit of low tax and leaving people with more of their own money to spend on what they will. I am glad the hon. Gentleman gave me the opportunity to pay tribute to Wandsworth council’s low council tax policy.

Some of my constituents will be affected by the measure—[Interruption.] I realise that other hon. Members want to speak, but if Labour Members want to make every general economic point and make endless reference to tax cuts for millionaires and that sort of thing—[Interruption.] Well, I made the point earlier that the Labour Government had several years after the financial crash and after financial reality had dawned to do something about the upper rate of tax, but they did nothing. The higher rate was in effect for, I believe, 37 days before the election. A lot of nonsense is spoken about that.

As I have said, we could look at aspects of the measure. The Minister’s speech was helpful because he clarified concerns and misunderstandings. The measure draws attention to the fact that subsidised social housing is a scant and important public resource. The fact that subsidy is built in to the rent for social housing means that social housing is often not appreciated as a valuable resource, and we should aim to provide access to it for as many taxpayers as possible.

I would like to make a point on behalf of the many people who come to see me who are over-occupying. No one claims that this policy will free up all of the 1 million rooms, but it might well encourage people to look at being in appropriate-sized accommodation. Many housing directors tell me that if they could match people to the correct-sized accommodation, they could resolve much of their waiting lists—that is what I have been told by people with many years’ experience in this field. This is not a panacea, but there are people in wrong-sized accommodation. If this measure starts to get people thinking and encourages them to move into right-sized accommodation where it is available, that is a good thing.

[Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con)]

My hon. Friend’s point is very interesting. Many councils, such as the fantastic South Derbyshire district council, encourage, enable and give people money to move. This will all be part of the package. It is not draconian; it brings it to the fore.

[Jane Ellison]

It is right to put on record that many councils are responding sensibly and imaginatively to the many challenges that have been handed to them by the inevitable decisions that the Government have had to take.

Another group of people who often come to see me in my surgeries, and for whom there is no solution in social housing, are young single people, in particular young single men. I always feel my heart sink when they come to talk to me about the possibility of getting any sort of subsidised housing, because, as we all know, they attract absolutely no points. If some people affected by the removal of the subsidy choose to rent out a room, I would welcome that because the group likely to benefit would be those young single people in areas such as mine. They do starter jobs that are much-needed in a 24 hour city such as London. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) from a sedentary position is questioning whether anyone would do that—people used to do it all the time. To return to the point about exaggeration, earlier in the debate someone implied that the inevitable consequence of deciding to take in a lodger would be some sort of abuse or crime. People used to do this all the time. Raising people’s fears and exaggerating them is not helpful at all.

[Ian Lavery]

rose—

[Jane Ellison]

Let me finish this point. I have checked with my council and it is the case that council tenants, as long as they do not either overcrowd or sub-let the lease, are able to take in a lodger if they so choose. For some people that might be a sensible solution. That might help the young single people who come and see me, and to whom I can give no suggestions about where they might find socially subsidised housing. If they are the winners of this process, that is a good thing, because they are currently the losers.

I am aware that other hon. Members wish to speak, so I will just draw attention to some of the practical measures being done by councils. There is an extra £30 million of discretionary housing allowance, and my council has certainly seen a significant rise in its discretionary amount. It has already put together a co-ordinated action plan between the finance and housing departments. It has contacted all potentially affected recipients and customers, and is beginning to confirm their benefit details. It has set up a helpline to discuss options to downsize. It is in direct contact with some of those households. It is also in direct contact with some of the social landlords to look at where there might be work that they could do. We heard an interesting example earlier about how social landlords in Liverpool had come together to try and pool their resources. There are quite a lot of sensible things that local councils that are planning ahead can do, and, of course, some people will choose to take other options.

I make this plea to Opposition Members. I would like to think that when they are approached by people with specific difficulties, especially associated with disability and so on, their first thought is not, “This would be an ideal case to read out in Prime Minister’s Question Time”—we have heard this in respect of many other welfare changes, particularly from the Labour party—but to say, “You might well be covered by the discretionary payment, and I’m going to make inquiries about that and exercise my influence to say that you should be.”

[Heather Wheeler]

rose—

[Jane Ellison]

I give way to my hon. Friend.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. Just before I allow the intervention, I must remind the hon. Lady that she said that a lot of people want to speak, and they do. After the next speaker, I will be introducing a time limit that will be less than the time she has taken so far, so I ask her to show some self-restraint so that we can make progress. Heather Wheeler, you were about to intervene.

[Heather Wheeler]

Very kind, Mr Deputy Speaker.

I find this really interesting. I do wonder about some of our Labour colleagues. We have mentioned the possibility of someone taking in a lodger and bringing in £4,200 a year tax free. Does the Labour party not want this cash flowing in our communities? Is there a problem with people taking control of their lives? Does it have an issue with that? Are we only allowed top-down rules? What is wrong with taking in a lodger? It might be like going back to the ’50s, but actually we had real communities then, and I think it is an excellent idea.

[Jane Ellison]

I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention. I hope that she makes her own contribution and develops that theme later.

I will wind up now. My principal point is that these debates are not well served by exaggeration and shroud-waving, but I am afraid that that is what we have seen. Undoubtedly, there are difficult cases. We all have them—I have some in my inbox, as have other colleagues on both sides of the House—and we must work with Ministers to look at them. We have had a commitment from the Minister to a rolling review of the policy, but let us also look at some of the potential winners and ensure that we bring to the attention of those in overcrowded accommodation and those who have no chance of qualifying for subsidised public housing the opportunity that might be offered to them by some of these changes.

I shall sit down now, Mr Deputy Speaker, so that others can contribute.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

I am extremely grateful for your assistance. I call Caroline Lucas.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jane Ellison Excerpts

Monday 28th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Steve Webb]

Just to be clear, the women the hon. Gentleman is talking about will get exactly the pension that they thought they were going to get before we made our announcement, and they will get it on the day on which they thought they were going to get it. We have changed nothing at all. However, under the present system, if those women want to defer a pension for two years, they will get that on the current rules plus 20%, which is a generous rate of deferral.

[Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)]

Will the Minister confirm that, contrary to the comments made by some Labour Members, a record number of women are in work at the moment?