Explosive Ordnance Disposal Community

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Wednesday 11th December 2024 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

As always, it is a real pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dowd. You are a friend of everyone in this House—but you already know that. We all appreciate your humour and social engagement. I commend the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Helen Maguire) for setting the scene so very well.

I want to talk about something that has happened in my constituency in the past four months to show why the issue is so important, and I will then refer to the international stage. The hon. Lady has clearly set out the reasons why this debate is important. It is unfortunate that more hon. Members are not here to support her, but there are many demands on Members, so they may have reasons for not being here.

It is a real pleasure to see the Minister in his place. Given his personal experience, I know that we will get a positive response to the things we ask for. It is also nice to see the right hon. Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois) and the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Cameron Thomas); we look forward to their contributions.

I will speak about my recent experience of the issue, not the experience that unfortunately my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) and I have of the 30-plus years of the troubles in Northern Ireland—we can talk about many things that happened. Just slightly over four months ago, we had need of Army expertise in the main town in my constituency, Newtownards. I received a message saying that there was a bomb in the town. When we hear such things, as my hon. Friend and I have done over our lives—we have probably had longer lives than most people in this Chamber, so we can talk about many things that have happened—our hearts sink. I said, “Oh, goodness me. Not again!” We thought that somebody had decided to carry out a terrorist bomb attack somewhere in the town.

The last bomb that I knew of in Newtownards was in 1993. I remember it very well: it was an IRA bomb that devastated the centre of the town. That night, I was at my Orange lodge meeting in Kircubbin, some 10 miles down the road, but we heard the bomb explosion. As soon as we heard it, at that distance, we were mindful of what was taking place. The devastation to property and the mental health of those around it was substantial. It destroyed businesses; some did not come back. Some people were injured, and they still have those scars.

When I received that message four months ago, my heart definitely sank. I probably had a large dose of butterflies in my stomach as I tried to ascertain exactly what was going on. After a quick phone call to the local police, I was able to ascertain exactly what had happened. The munition was from a different war: it was identified as being an airdropped SC 500 German bomb from world war two. That did not lessen the impact, because of where it was. The German bomber dropped that bomb on desolate land and farmland, but now, some 83 years later, it has been built on.

As the builder was excavating, he suddenly realised what he had come upon. The bomb was understood to be about 83 years old, but it still posed a significant risk to public safety even after all that time. It was found as developers were digging foundations at the third phase of the housing development, and the action was quick and decisive. I want to put on record my thanks to the bomb disposal experts and the Police Service of Northern Ireland. They were able to respond in a decisive, impactful, quick and urgent way, because they understood the risk.

The people there had only just bought their houses. I went to the area immediately to speak to residents after they had contacted me. They all had to move out and were worried about their quite substantial new houses. It was a highly complex operation, which prompted the evacuation of hundreds of homes within 400 metres of the bomb’s location.

Local police officers worked around the clock to engage with those impacted. There was a cordon in which all the houses going down to the new development were caught. That is another matter I want to speak about: when there is an unexploded bomb, what does it mean? Some people are not able to move out of their homes because they are disabled. That is unfortunate, but it tells us about life. There were people with terminal cancer on medication. Others had chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, whose very breath of life was in an oxygen bottle in their house, where they were cared for 24/7. That is the impact that those incidents can have.

I spoke on the Sunday to a lady at the cordon whose house was nearest to the bomb. She said that she had just bought the house, with the windows only put in the previous week. She was due to go in the next week to sort out the décor. She wondered whether her house would still be there after the authorities had done what they had to do. That is the personal knowledge that I have to bring to this debate. I understand why it is important and the sort of things that go through people’s minds. I would have those same thoughts about the people who are ill and have health conditions that mean they cannot move out.

Others want to stay in their houses to look after their dogs and cats. Those are elementary but decisive concerns for people. Thanks to the goodness of many people in Newtownards and district, we were able to find Airbnbs and other places for people to stay with their family. We were even able to find someone to look after the dogs and cats. I never fail to be encouraged and moved by people’s generosity and goodness in putting their hands up and doing their best to make life easier for others.

The highly complex operation prompted the evacuation of a large number of homes. The disposal team comprised members of the Army’s 321 EOD & Search squadron, which alongside the PSNI led the major operation. They were assisted by other emergency services and partners, who provided expert knowledge in managing a high-risk emergency.

We had hoped that such things would not happen again, but all of a sudden it was back and we were confronting it. People’s questions are really important. Local council services were also made available at the Ards Blair Mayne leisure centre, if people needed somewhere to stay and had not been able to find accommodation. Other authorities were there, such as the Northern Ireland Housing Executive, the Department for Work and Pensions and the PSNI. Everyone was available; it became a gigantic effort of response from the whole area.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that our thanks are due to all the EOD personnel who act, not just in the United Kingdom but internationally, as we heard from the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Helen Maguire)? In Northern Ireland today, even in the post-ceasefire era that we are in, we have 100 to 200 incidents every year in which EOD personnel are called out to deal with landmines and other devices that are planted; some are not genuine, but they are called out anyway. All of us owe a debt of gratitude to those personnel, who put their own lives at risk while trying to protect others.

[Jim Shannon]

As always, I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. He is right to underline that issue and its importance. While recognising that everybody came together to do their best and to make it happen, I want to move on to speaking about Ukraine, if I may.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Shannon]

I certainly will, and so will we all: the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell has said it, my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry said it, I have said it, and the shadow Minister has said it. I think everyone in the House will reiterate it. We owe them a great debt and it cannot be underlined enough.

The last thing I want to say about the Ards incident is that the residents’ group came to me and asked, “Could we have a public meeting to try to address some of the concerns?” To be fair, McDonald’s, for instance, just up the road, had given 100 or so vouchers to people as well. People’s generosity was incredible. It was not just a trip to McDonald’s, which my grandchildren love; it was a meal for someone who had not got a house in which to make a meal. That was the importance of it.

I remember that when I went to the public meeting— I say this even though it had nothing to do with me, but I do try, as an MP, to be representative—one of the guys said to me as I arrived, “Are you going in there?” I said, “I am, because I am the MP. Of course I’m going in.” He said, “You know, there’s almost 100 people in there.” I said, “Well, I have to go and speak to people. They’ve asked me to come down, and I don’t run away.”

I went into the meeting, and everybody was saying, “Oh my goodness.” We need to remember that when people are under pressure, they deserve to have someone to help them. I was able to do that. It was not because I am better than anybody else; it is never to do with that. It was because I was able to hopefully give them some answers to the questions that they had.

The hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell has secured this debate. I think it is all part of what the ordnance do, but it is about the importance of the project.

It was with no thanks to me, but three quarters of the way through the meeting, guess what? A phone call came in and it was a girl who works for me. She said, “By the way, Jim, it is all over. The bomb has exploded.” I could not say that I delivered that, but it happened coincidentally. I immediately saw the relief on people’s faces and the weight lift off their shoulders, as about half the people in the meeting went out of the room to get back to their house.

[Mr Gregory Campbell]

To finish their McDonald’s.

[Jim Shannon]

Yes, they all got their McDonald’s chippies before they left. Honestly though, it was a relief. My goodness, I have never had a relief quite like it. It was wonderful.

The hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell highlighted Ukraine. Information that I have received highlights that every day 15 people are killed or injured by landmines and other explosive ordnance. Civilians account for 84% of casualties, and more than a third of those are children. My goodness! I think most of those children are under the age of 10. Imagine starting off life with a prosthetic limb—if they can get one. The hon. Lady mentioned that in setting the scene.

By the way, I was not aware, until I heard the hon. Lady say it, that prosthetic limbs for men and women are different. It should have come to my knowledge long before she said it, but I did not quite understand it until she said it. I thank her for reminding us of the greater job that must be undertaken.

About 60 countries are contaminated with landmines, cluster munitions and other explosive ordnance. Those include countries where conflict has ended, such as Angola or Cambodia, and those with recent or ongoing conflicts, such as Lebanon, which is very much in the news, and Ukraine.

Sometimes we need to be reminded of the conflicts in the world, including the impact of conflict on Ukraine. I am not saying that the impact on Russia has not been equal. It is not about them and us; it is more about everyone who has been killed or injured. However, many people have been killed in Ukraine. I do not want to cite the figures, because they are rather worrying; one newspaper says one thing one day and another says something different another day. Nevertheless, of the perhaps 300,000 people injured in Ukraine, I understand that half have had to have limbs replaced, as the hon. Lady said, so there is a great need to help.

I know that it is not the Minister’s responsibility, but I would really appreciate it—I know that the hon. Lady would appreciate it as well—if he could give us some idea about how we can provide more help to those who have lost limbs. Children especially, if people do not mind my saying so, and men and women have to deal with life without an arm, without a leg or perhaps without two legs. We want to give them hope. When we have debates, we always have to give people hope. It is important that we look towards the future.

The UK has long played an active role in tackling this threat, with diplomatic efforts and by providing funding for mine action programmes. The UK currently supports that work in 11 countries, primarily through the FCDO’s global mine action programme. I always do this type of thing, because it is the right thing to do, but I thank the Government—both the previous Government and this Government, who will continue the work—for the global mine action programme. Its work is important and will hopefully continue for the foreseeable future, because there is a great need for it.

What help can the UK give to the victims of conflict who have lost limbs, such as by providing prosthetic limbs? We lead the world in that regard because of the war in Afghanistan. The hon. and gallant Member for Leyton and Wanstead (Mr Bailey), who served in Afghanistan, is present. We thank him for his efforts and we thank many others for their efforts, too.

It is incredibly important that we give people hope. I look back at what has happened in the past couple of years, including Prince Harry’s efforts and the Invictus games. What an example that event gives the world of those who have prosthetic limbs and what they can achieve! I always watch such events, because it is incredibly encouraging to see people overcome disabilities in a positive way.

There is also the Paralympics. Again, there is a mix of life. All the athletes have disabilities. Some of them have lost their limbs for reasons other than conflict. Nevertheless, all the athletes achieve so much. When we see what can be achieved by someone with a prosthetic limb, when they have the opportunity to re-engage in life and have some sort of normality, that is so important.

The debate that the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell has secured has a twofold purpose. One relates to the experience of Newtownards just four months ago; the other relates to where we are in this world today. I have hope about the years to come, and I have absolutely no doubt that the Minister will be totally committed to achieving the goals that we hope to achieve. I am fully supportive of the global mine action programme and urge the Government to continue to support it. In Newtownards, we struggled in a small way for a week with fear about unexploded ordnance, but through the programme we can try to take away that fear from those around the world, particularly in Ukraine, who live their whole life with it.

I suppose I am the eternal optimist. President Trump is now the President-elect, and has said that he will do his best to bring the conflict in Ukraine to an end. I observe that there seems to be movement, and President Zelensky seems to understand that an agreement will come. Whenever peace comes, and we hope it will, we will have to rebuild Ukraine to how it was and help people to re-engage and restart life—which is where prosthetic limbs come in. We also have to remove all the ordnance in Ukraine that the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell referred to. It will take many years for that to happen and for the agricultural land to be returned to the green fields that feed the world, and Africa in particular. That is why this debate is important and why, today, we ask for all those things.

[Mr Calvin Bailey (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)]

Thank you for allowing me to speak following my late arrival, Mr Dowd. I understand that I have perhaps not followed normal procedure.

I start by acknowledging the hon. and gallant Member for Epsom and Ewell (Helen Maguire) for securing this important debate to support the explosive ordnance disposal community. The work of that community saves lives, enables economic recovery and helps to rebuild societies that have been devastated by conflict. It is a critical aspect of our national and international security and it deserves our utmost attention.

As we have heard, the global threat of explosive ordnance—including landmines, cluster munitions and unexploded bombs left behind in the aftermath of conflicts—results in the deaths of 15 people every day. Civilians account for 84% of those casualties, and over a third of them are children. Those tragic figures remind us of the enduring danger that explosive ordnance possesses long after the fighting has ceased.

Contamination spans 60 countries, affecting regions with recent conflicts such as Ukraine and, in particular, Gaza, as well as those with decades-old legacies including, as we heard from the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), Cambodia and Angola, which are particularly afflicted. Those weapons are not just remnants of violence but barriers to progress, safety and prosperity, and they disproportionately impact the lives of women, who have to traverse the terrain to sustain their families. We must not overlook that when we discuss the unexploded ordnance detritus that is left after war.

Mine action goes beyond clearing explosive ordnance; it restores hope and opportunity. Studies show that every £1 spent on mine clearance yields a fourfold return in economic benefits, as well as unlocking land, agriculture, infrastructure and the roots of normal daily life, particularly for women and children in education. For example, in Lebanon, the clearing of landmines has enabled safer farming and access to critical resources such as water, benefiting thousands of families. Explosive ordnance clearance also supports global humanitarian objectives. It aligns with sustainable development goals, fostering food security, economic growth and safer communities. That work exemplifies the transformative power of collaboration between Governments, NGOs and local communities.

The UK has made a proud contribution to that work, which is the subject of this debate. We have a long-standing and distinguished record of mine action. As one of the first signatories to the anti-personnel mine ban convention, and the convention on cluster munitions, our country has demonstrated unwavering commitment to upholding international humanitarian law. Through schemes such as the FCDO’s global mine action programme, the UK has directly supported explosive ordnance disposal in 11 countries, and that benefited more than 1 million people between 2018 and 2020 alone. Organisations such as the Mines Advisory Group and the HALO Trust, which I have been very proud to speak for and associate myself with, are headquartered here in the UK. They are global leaders and they showcase the best of British expertise and values.

I am grateful to the hon. Member for Strangford for making an important and powerful point about honouring and supporting our veterans and their contribution. As we discuss the impacts of explosive ordnance globally, we must also turn our attention to the incredible legacy of our Afghan veterans, many of whom have been injured by landmines while serving our country. This is not a historical issue: it is an ongoing responsibility. Every day, we see veterans going about their business with prosthetic limbs. They have made a valuable contribution and they are a valued part of our community. The armed forces covenant is essential in reminding us of our moral obligation to support those who have sacrificed so much for our security.

This evening, gallant Members and I will meet Afghanistan veterans to hear at first hand their experiences and the challenges they face. Their courage and resilience reminds us of the importance of addressing their needs, from healthcare to employment and community support. Events such as the Invictus games celebrate and strengthen the determination of our injured service personnel, and they are a testament to what can be achieved when we come together to honour and support those individuals.

[Mr Gregory Campbell]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the Army Benevolent Fund does outstanding work to help veterans and that we all should support it? I tabled an early-day motion yesterday to draw attention to that work. The fund has achieved remarkable things in helping former personnel.

[Mr Bailey]

I thank the hon. Member for his powerful and significant intervention. The service charities are critical in supporting our veterans. A powerful part of their work is in normalising veterans in the community and ensuring that people treat them as a normal part of our community. Veterans have left a visible and lasting legacy, and it is essential that the service charities continue to support our veterans long into the future. However, those efforts must be matched by real and sustained commitments from the Government. I welcome the presence of the Veterans Minister, who I know has been key to ensuring that these issues are addressed and that no veterans are left behind.

Our Government’s defence industrial strategy enhances our contribution by integrating explosive ordnance disposal into the broader framework of our national armaments. The strategy prioritises UK-based businesses, fosters long-term partnership and drives innovation at a wartime pace. It also ensures that regions beyond London benefit from job creation and economic growth. However, as a London MP I would like to see that opportunity opened up to all people, including the very bright and promising youth of London, as we produce thousands of personnel who are ready to engage with jobs and opportunities in science, technology, engineering and maths.

In addition, our approach aligns with our national security goals and the work of organisations such as the MAG. Its work in Lebanon accounts for the removal of live munitions decades after their use. That is a demonstration of how targeted landmine clearance can transform lives. Similarly, in Ukraine an estimated 1,500 sq km of land remains contaminated. This will increase massively and impact a country for which agriculture is central to its very existence. Our support must not just be humanitarian; it is also vital for global stability and for food-bearing nations such as Ukraine.

The lessons from Ukraine do not end there. On Tuesday, the Defence Committee heard about some of the lessons we were learning from supporting Ukraine. Our defence industry can rapidly integrate and provide the support that is most relevant to the battlefield situation that Ukrainians face. This is ultimately similar to the battlefields we need to prepare to face as NATO allies, given Russia’s ongoing strategy of escalating aggression. Will the Minister set out any thoughts he has on how that point can be applied to the ordnance removal mission that we share with our partners both in Ukraine and around the world? Surely, the broader point is that, whether in supplying military support or explosives removal, UK expertise can only grow in ways that benefit our own interest and those of our partners if we are responsive, and able and willing to learn quickly.

Explosive ordnance disposal is also an economic opportunity. The UK defence sector already supports 434,000 jobs, with 67% located away from the south-east. By aligning mine action with defence investments, we can ensure that UK regions grow and that all parts of the UK, including my constituency, benefit from this vital work. The challenges posed by explosive ordnance require a sustained and collaborative effort. I urge the Government to restore and expand funding for mine action programmes, particularly in heavily affected regions like Lebanon and Ukraine. This is about not just saving lives but demonstrating Britain’s values on the world stage.

We must also strengthen our partnerships with NGOs, industry, and academia to leverage the unique expertise that the UK has to offer. By doing so, we can ensure that our nation continues to lead in explosive ordnance disposal, delivering both humanitarian and strategic benefits. Let us reaffirm our commitment to explosive ordnance disposal and to the global fight against these silent and unseen killers. Together we can save lives, foster development and, most importantly, uphold Britain’s proud tradition as a force for good in the world.

UK Air and Missile Defences

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Wednesday 27th November 2024 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Dowd. It seems only a few minutes ago that you and I were last in Westminster Hall—you brought the 4.30 pm debate to an end yesterday afternoon, and we moved on, but here we are again, within minutes it seems. I congratulate the hon. Member for North Durham (Luke Akehurst) on bringing forward the debate. I spoke to him last week when I became aware that he had this upcoming debate, and he is right to bring it to Westminster Hall for consideration. We must recognise the importance of UK air and missile defences and of us in Parliament collectively making a clear pledge.

The Ukraine conflict, in tandem with the sustained attacks on Israel, has illustrated—in a way that none of us wants to see, but that has unfortunately become a reality—the need for strong and robust air defence. On Israel, I will just say that it is good news that a 60-day ceasefire with Hezbollah has hopefully been agreed. We hope that the peace agreement will stand firm and can last 60 days, and possibly longer.

As hon. Members may be aware, the leading air defence company Thales in the UK and perhaps the world is based in the constituency neighbouring mine, that of my right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson), although he tells me that the majority of the workers are my constituents. I am thankful to this good local employer for not simply providing skilful, gainful employment at a very decent wage, but offering incredibly helpful apprenticeships. When my right hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East and I met Thales back in August, we pushed for apprenticeships, and we were pleased that the company was approaching the issue constructively. Those who gain an apprenticeship have their student fees paid, because Thales wants to retain those apprentices for the long term. One worker, who happens to be my constituent, has won the Northern Ireland apprentice of the year award, which is an indication of how much Thales does for apprentices. The use of local suppliers also means that more people than just those on site owe their employment to Thales’s innovation and excellence. The company’s design and production of air defence capabilities in Northern Ireland directly employs more than 800 people, and contributes £81 million to Northern Ireland’s GDP.

I am pleased to see the Minister in her place, and I look forward to her support for our requests for a long-term commitment. It is also a pleasure to see the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge), in his place, and I know he has made numerous visits to Northern Ireland; indeed, he will probably comment on that when he makes his speech. We appreciate his past and ongoing commitment.

My gratitude extends to Thales for the security that its products offer our entire nation as we ensure that we can withstand warfare, should that be necessary. Looking back to the start of the Ukraine crisis, Thales was able to supply shoulder-held weapons that slowed down the advance of Russian armies across the whole front. That was Thales in Belfast—part of this great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland—doing its job for liberty, freedom and democracy.

A few months ago, I was pleased to learn that Thales had secured a £176 million MOD contract to produce lightweight missiles for the British Army. The order will equip the Army’s current and future short-range air defence capabilities, such as Stormer combat vehicles, and be fired by the Royal Navy’s Martlet maritime anti-surface missile systems, which are deployed from the Wildcat helicopters the hon. Member for North Durham referred to in his introduction. That is coming from us—Thales, in Belfast, in this great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The MOD said that these lightweight multi-role missiles, weighing only 13 kg each, provide a solution against threats such as drones, helicopters, aircraft, and small, fast maritime targets. They have been used in Ukraine to aid our allies in their ongoing struggle, and they have truly made a difference. It is right and proper that we ensure we have a decent stock and the facilities and capacity to quickly access more, should the need arise.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

My hon. Friend refers to the stock that we require. Hopefully it never needs to be used, but we definitely require it. Does he agree that it would help if the Government were to outline in clear detail how quickly defence spending will get to 2.5%?

[Jim Shannon]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. The Minister, who is assiduous in her work, will no doubt take note of that, or her officials will and will pass forward up-to-date information on where we are. I will comment on that later on, because it is really important that we look forward.

It is my hope—I know it is a shared hope in this room—that we can shortly find a way forward to peace for Israel, Ukraine and Africa—peace in so many theatres of war. Two weeks ago in the Baptist church I attend, the pastor said in his prayers that there are 47 wars in the world; that is how many there are. The ones that feature highly are Ukraine and Israel, of course, but across the world there are wars and rumours of wars. Those 47 wars give an indication of why peace is so important.

While we hope, aim and strive for peace, we must also be prepared for war. We must ensure that our armed forces are equipped and trained on land and sea and in the air, as well as in the new cyber-space, and missiles are part of that preparedness. The UK has to prepare for Russian aggression. It was in the paper this morning—the hon. Member for North Durham referred to this—that Russian drones were looking at the east of England, and I understand that the MOD was responding to them. I know that that is a hot story—if that is the way to put it—having been in the paper for the first time this morning, but maybe the Minister can give us some indication of how we are preparing ourselves for any such incursion by Russian forces, wherever it may be in the east of England—or indeed coming through the Republic of Ireland, into Northern Ireland and ultimately towards the rest of the United Kingdom. I would love there to be a special NATO relationship with the Republic of Ireland, but we must be aware that it is a back door to Britain, so we need to be prepared and ready. What is most important is that we are doing what we can.

I welcome the news that we are again to increase our GDP spend, and my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) referred to that. I know that the 2.5% is something we all want the Minister and the Government to achieve, and nobody differs in that view. What discussions have taken place with our fellow NATO countries and compatriots in battle about their preparedness to spend 2.5% for a similar reason?

I am conscious that within NATO we have our commitment to Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and Poland, who are on the frontline with Russia. They have stood firm, but how can we ensure that their commitment is likewise at 2.5%? How can those that are not on the frontline, who may think they are safe because they are a way behind those countries, also commit to that 2.5%? That is something I would very much like to see. We have a change of Administration in the United States. President-elect Trump will take over on 21 January, I think, with President Biden still there until then. Have there been any discussions with the incoming President on the 2.5% commitment? If there have not been, could the Minister indicate when they might take place?

I conclude with this comment: I welcome the news that we are again to increase our GDP spend on military. This is right and proper. The production of high-level defence capacity by Thales and other UK providers must continue, to ensure that we can help our allies in need and that anyone who positions themselves as our enemy knows that our calmness and kindness are certainly not weakness. I am proud to be part of this great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and I am proud to be the hon. Member for Strangford and to ensure that we, collectively in this House, offer our support. I support the creation of these necessary arms, and I thank those who ensure that we have the capacity to continue having the world’s very best armed forces.

Ukraine and Georgia

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Wednesday 15th May 2024 Commons Chamber

[Leo Docherty]

In truth, those are questions for my colleagues in the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office, but our analysis is that the strong relationship we have with the Georgians in the defence sector is an important means of ensuring that their direction of travel is a positive one.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

There is growing concern across central and northern Europe about Georgia. Will the Minister have conversations with colleagues in government to ensure that the commitment to NATO of our partners across Europe is increased, to prepare for the undoubted expansionism that Putin is currently engaged in and that he will probably step up in the coming months?

[Leo Docherty]

The answer is yes, Mr Speaker. Of course, the hon. Gentleman will have observed, as I have, that the consequence of Putin’s effort to demonstrate NATO’s weakness has been exactly the opposite: NATO is now larger and stronger than it was before February 2022. We will lead the way in ensuring that all members meet the investment required to be a member of that tremendous defensive alliance.

Oral Answers to Questions

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Monday 21st February 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wallace]

My hon. Friend has often campaigned on the size of the Army. First and foremost, we have to recognise that modernisation is an important aspect of making sure that our armed forces are fit to fight. There is simply no point in having mass in a hollow armed forces. For too long, we had that out of step: either we had lots of people and inadequate equipment, or we had expensive equipment and not enough people. This defence Command Paper put that in balance, which means that it can deliver what it says on the tin and it does not let those people down.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

May I thank you, Mr Speaker, for the tribute paid to our dear friend and colleague Christopher Stalford, who we shall all miss terribly? On a lighter note, may I ask the Secretary of State whether he would join me at the Northern Ireland airshow in my constituency, where all the armed services put on a magnificent display each year, in trying to attract young people to a very rewarding career in the armed services?

[Mr Wallace]

I would be delighted to do so.

Defence Spending

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Tuesday 16th July 2019 Westminster Hall

[Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

In the four minutes available, I propose to make two points. First, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Anne-Marie Trevelyan) on a masterly introduction to the debate. Her timing could have been better—to secure a debate so close to the arrival of a new Prime Minister is perhaps chancing her arm. Nevertheless, if we are to get the issue in the news, we need to link it to that, so I will quote the responses of the two remaining candidates in the race to be the next Prime Minister to my letter of 26 June, which asked about their defence policies.

On 2 July, my right hon. Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris Johnson), the former Foreign Secretary, replied:

“The armed forces have done some exceptional work of late in attempting to live within an increasingly stretched budgetary environment. I can give you an absolute commitment to fund defence fully. I believe Military spending should be dictated by the threats we face—and, it is clear that these threats have multiplied in both scale and complexity in recent years. I guarantee, of course, that we will exceed the minimum 2% NATO spending target and the Defence Budget will continue to grow at a minimum of 0.5% annually.”

On 8 July, the current Foreign Secretary replied:

“In this leadership campaign, I have given more attention to defence spending than any other candidate. I have pledged to increase the defence budget to 2.5 per cent of GDP over five years. I have argued that additional funds would need to be”—

made available, I think he means—

“for new capabilities and not simply plugging gaps in existing plans. Were I to become Prime Minister, I would consider the path of further increases in spending once the 2.5 per cent had been achieved.”

That is their position.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Dr Lewis]

I had better not, because of time pressure.

Secondly, to coincide with the debate, the Defence Committee has updated its April 2016 report, “Shifting the Goalposts? Defence Expenditure and the 2% pledge”, in which we set defence spending in context. We showed that, while we spent similar amounts on education, defence and health in the mid-1980s, we now spend 2.5 times more on education than defence, and 4 times more on health.

Our latest report, which was published today—HC 2527, for those who are interested—has recalculated the figures for the last few years and brought them up to date. It shows that, in the last three years, we have spent 2.1% on defence, if we calculate it from NATO’s point of view and bring in extra things such as war pensions, which never used to count towards the total. If we exclude them, the new report shows that our like-for-like defence spending is only 1.8%. Is that credible in an age when the profile of the threats we face includes an adversarial Russia and the revival of a terrorist threat in the form of Islamist terrorism? When we compare it with the 1980s, when we regularly spent 4.5% compared with 1.8%, or 5% compared with 2.1%, we can see the shortfall.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is always a pleasure to speak in these debates. I congratulate the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Anne-Marie Trevelyan) on setting the scene, and thank all right hon. and hon. Members who have contributed.

Like others in this Chamber, I am massively concerned about defence spending, as every hon. Member in this place should be. We are known as a world leader, and for that to be in any way meaningful, it must follow that our defence is top class and that the men and women who wear the uniform of this great country—the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland—are irrefutably the best in the world. The very clear fact is that we do not do as well by them as they do by us.

We sit at the NATO target of 2% GDP for defence, but I cannot quite figure out why that figure means that we are doing okay. Some have outlined to me that while the paper trail can look like 2% GDP, the reality is very different. The Chair of the Defence Committee, the right hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), mentioned the figure of 1.8%, which would not be in order.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that when looking at historical defence expenditure, the UK’s defence spending as a percentage of GDP has been reduced by more than 50% over the last 40 years? That is a real indictment of Governments of all types and descriptions. We need to do better by our armed forces.

[Jim Shannon]

I would adhere to and agree with my hon. Friend’s figures.

The obligations on our armed forces are incredible. From war zones to giving aid in peace zones and every area in between, such as simply helping Commonwealth nations to do the right thing on the world stage, as we often do, our men and women are the first on the scene doing the best job, but we stretch our resources in every operation or every time we lend a hand. I put on the record that some of the other NATO countries need to make an effort to meet their obligations. Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania have met theirs, but where is Germany on its NATO contribution?

All that heaps pressure on the everyday running of the forces, on their recruitment processes, and on the training for the next generation. I am not stuck on a figure for military spending, although I would aim high, and while I understand that a bottomless budget is impossible, an adequate one is not—it is essential.

Between 2018-19 and 2019-20, defence spending is planned to increase by an annual average of 1.4% in real terms. Defence spending in 2019-20 is planned to be £1 billion more in real terms than in 2016-17. That is good news, but if that is the figure we are aiming for, will it do the business? Is it enough to ensure that our armed forces personnel have the right equipment at the right time for the battle, the right training for the situation and the right support for when the fighting is done?

At present, what I am hearing is that we simply are not there. Recruitment officials cannot afford to run high-end campaigns to attract the next generation. We do not have the funding to give new recruits the appropriate training in different situations to ensure that they are as prepared as possible. On the frontline, we are certainly lacking in top of the range and fit-for-purpose equipment.

On recruitment, the armed forces have always recruited highly in Northern Ireland, and I understand that the campaign there is going well. Will the Minister give some idea of the recruitment figures? I commend the gallant Minister for his service and for his commitment and interest. I know that when he responds, we will get a reply that we will be happy with. Are we sourcing as much equipment as possible from our own shores to support local industry? Will the Minister ensure that everyone across the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland benefits? We also need funding to address the mental health of veterans of all ages.

Our Navy, Air Force and Army are simply the best. We need to do better by them and that is why I support the calls for an increase in defence spending above and beyond the schedule and the target.

RAF Centenary

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Monday 26th November 2018 Commons Chamber

[Gavin Williamson]

There is a theme coming out very clearly in this debate, which is the role that the Air Force plays in inspiring future generations—whether at school, college or university—into different careers, both in the Air Force itself and in other science, technology, engineering and maths areas.

It would be remiss of us not to talk about what the Royal Air Force is doing today. As we are in this House, the Royal Air Force continuously stands vigilant to protect our skies here in the United Kingdom, but it is also taking our fight to our enemies abroad—Daesh in Iraq and Syria. The RAF has been using its skills to strike and eliminate that threat by combining precision-guided weaponry with unparalleled surveillance, intelligence gathering and surveillance capabilities; flying at the highest operational tempo for over a quarter of a century; and striking more than 1,750 times. The RAF has played a pivotal role in bringing Daesh to its knees and significantly reducing its influence across the world. People sometimes think that the campaigns that the RAF is fighting are very far away from here and maybe do not have a relevance to the United Kingdom, but by dealing with that threat in Iraq and Syria, the RAF is keeping the streets of Great Britain safer.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that, while we must remember the magnificent 100 years of the RAF, the best way we can pay testament to the nation and the RAF is by ensuring that the RAF and all the armed forces get sufficient funding to keep us all safe?

[Gavin Williamson]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to say that the best birthday present that any service can have is probably a little bit more cash. I am sure that the Chief of the Air Staff would very much echo that.

Afghanistan

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Wednesday 11th July 2018 Commons Chamber

[Gavin Williamson]

We recognise the enormous contribution that so many people made—not just those working with British forces, but the Afghan security forces, who are taking the fight to the insurgents every single day. I am talking about not just the Taliban, but Daesh and other states that seek to extend their influence into Afghanistan.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

May I associate myself and my colleagues with the Secretary of State’s tribute to those who made the supreme sacrifice, including many from Northern Ireland—I think of several from my constituency? Given the deployment that is about to take place, what steps will he take to ensure that other nation states will share skills and training, as we obviously have, so that there is better future for everyone in Afghanistan?

[Gavin Williamson]

This is very much a coalition effort. Last year, a number of nations stepped up to increase their effort and deployment in Afghanistan, and we will be pushing this point going forward. We want all nations to make a larger contribution to this NATO mission, and we very much hope to lead by example.

UK Amphibious Capability

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Tuesday 21st November 2017 Westminster Hall

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Ruth Smeeth]

I am so sorry; I have just finished.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Ruth Smeeth) for bringing this issue to the House. I declare an interest as a former Ulster Defence Regiment soldier and Territorial Army soldier for 14 and a half years. Our armed forces are unquestionably the best in the world; we are second to none. As much as I respect our allies the Americans and Australians, among other nations, it is clear that our brave boys and girls top the table in ability and training. Our abilities and capability act as a deterrent to those who might consider undermining our authority. The Falklands war lasted 74 days and 255 British armed forces personnel died. We were attacked on 2 April and responded by 5 April. We had the capacity to re-route ships and personnel to an area that had no plan in place for an unexpected invasion of a Crown colony.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is vital that the Department, the Minister and the Treasury understand the cross-party consensus and the unanimity that exists, not just in this Parliament but in this country, about the adaptability required by our forces in times such as this?

[Jim Shannon]

Yes, that is exactly right. We in this debate are all saying the same thing.

Our Royal Marines have close international ties with allied marine forces, particularly the United States and Netherlands marine corps. Those ties are imperative to keeping us on the global stage. Although the reduction in the Royal Marines has not been confirmed, it has not been denied either. Any reduction must not even be considered.

Recently, during Hurricane Irma, the Royal Marines were where they were needed most, with the auxiliary boat Mounts Bay followed by HMS Ocean. Help and aid such as that given in the recent crisis are an essential part of our responsibilities to our colonies and Crown holdings, as is our ability to carry out those duties and responsibilities.

I agree wholeheartedly with the former Commander of Joint Forces Command when he told the Select Committee on Defence that it was

“madness”

to

“cull some of the finest infantry in the world”.

We should take note of those words. The Royal Navy needs its three amphibious assault ships HMS Ocean, HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark. I understand that HMS Bulwark is in port in a state of low readiness and is not expected to return to service until 2021; some media reports say that it might not return at all.

Never in history have we had our fingers in so many pies fulfilling international responsibilities. To be able to do so, we must have the force in place. If the reports on what might be proposed are right, it must be opposed.

A Better Defence Estate Strategy

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Tuesday 21st February 2017 Westminster Hall

[Mrs Grant]

My hon. Friend and neighbouring MP—we also share the same first name, which makes for a bit of confusion—makes a very good point. As I will go on to say, the Gurkhas and the Nepalese community are cherished and respected. There is wide opposition to the closure, so much so that a petition against it that I have been running for just a few weeks already has 2,500 names. That expresses the strength of the feeling from the people of Maidstone that we do not want to lose our Nepalese community. The soldiers and their families have worked hard for many years to integrate and to become part of the fabric of the area. As I have said, they have succeeded, and are widely respected and cherished.

One former Army wife, Mrs Jean Ruddell, who lived at the barracks for seven years, told me how difficult it had been for the Gurkha wives when they first arrived in 1998-99. She said that it was a real culture shock and that they had been a little like rabbits in headlights. However, they worked hard, learned English and enrolled in classes to assist them in finding work. They fully immersed themselves in Kent life and in the county town. She said there was mutual respect for different traditions and beliefs. She described it as real harmony and as multiculture at its very best. She remarked on what a tragedy it would be to see all of that broken up, at a time when togetherness and commonality are more important than ever. Another lady summarised well how many Nepalese people feel:

“We will miss the close connection with the Maidstone community. We love it here and have made it our home. We will need to start all over again if we move. It is so hard to build such relations.”

To illustrate the cross-generational feeling, one 85-year-old Gurkha veteran told me: “If our soldiers move, their wives and children will move too. We will be left stranded. We will lose the help and support given to us by our younger generation. We rely upon this heavily, especially those of us who have been injured or who are disabled”.

In the armed forces covenant annual report, the Secretary of State for Defence says:

“We have a duty across society to recognise this dedication and sacrifice, by ensuring that the policies we make, and the services that we provide, treat our Service personnel, Veterans, and their families fairly, and ensure they suffer no disadvantage by comparison to the rest of society as a result of their service.”

I fully support the covenant, and the Minister should be rightly proud of the role he has played in establishing it within society. A key pillar of the covenant, as the Secretary of State said, is to treat our service personnel and veterans and their families fairly. However, if the decision to close Invicta Park barracks goes ahead, the Government will not, I believe, for all the reasons I have stated, be acting fairly, and will be in breach of the covenant.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing the debate. She outlines passionately the impact on her constituency. Does she agree with the wider concern that, if the rationale and thinking behind the estate strategy pervades the training and reserves estate, we could see other problems right across the United Kingdom?

[Mrs Grant]

The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent point, and if he makes a speech today we will hopefully hear more about that. There are a number of important contributions to be made by Members on both sides of the House and it is important that they are all heard. I also want the Minister to have plenty of time to speak and to address the issues that will no doubt be raised.

Falkland Islands Defence Review

Gregory Campbell Excerpts

Tuesday 24th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Michael Fallon]

The very direct answer to my hon. Friend is yes. There are more Typhoons available. If more are needed for the defence of the islands, we are ready to send them, and we have Mount Pleasant airfield to receive them there.

[Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)]

In his statement, the Secretary of State said that our military presence is broadly proportionate to the threats and risks we face. What flexibility is there in our defence preparations for any potential hardening of attitude by Argentina, either unilaterally or with others?

[Michael Fallon]

We have a number of contingency plans, which we continue to refresh, to deal with any increase in the threat level. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will understand that I am not able to spell them out to the House in public session, but I assure him that those contingency plans exist. We take them out every so often to ensure that they are appropriate to the existing level of threat.