Planning and Infrastructure Bill

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 25th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, and I am very glad that he mentioned healthy homes. It is just one of the many issues missing from the Bill.

I like this Bill. I like the ideas and principles behind it, and I thank the Minister for the way he introduced it, but I take issue with him on one point in particular. When he was talking about the current problems the planning system faces, he did not mention the lack of planning officers, which was raised by a number of noble Lords. My noble friend Lord Young of Cookham mentioned it, and the lack of skilled workers was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington. Is the Minister concerned about the lack of planning officers? There has been a huge decline in the last 10 years, and these are going to be key people in the transformation the Government wish to see happen. I think I was not the only noble Lord to be very struck by the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Best, and I hope the Government pay attention to it and take action on it. It is far too easy for the Government to say they listen, but it is time they acted on the listening.

My Lords, I welcome Clause 32 and the ring-fencing of planning fees. Of course we all need some new development, but we also need nature with the new development. I was very saddened by the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Mawson, who went to nutrient neutrality as an excuse for not building new houses. That is a housebuilder’s old chestnut and a nonsense. I give the example of the Hampshire Avon, where so much has been done on nutrient neutrality. There is enough land now for 10 years of housebuilding, and that is a very precious area.

The noble Baroness, Lady Grender, was absolutely right about the missed opportunity of this Bill to make all development more nature friendly. There is a huge opportunity here for the Government to turn the dial to a really beneficial position: healthy homes and good, natural development that new housing can take advantage of. We get better design and a better quality of house as a result.

Let me turn to my main concern, which is Part 3 of the Bill. The more I have learned about the Bill and the more people I have talked to, the more I have decided that Part 3 has been made up on the hoof. It is a good idea but it has been totally overshadowed and destroyed by the Civil Service.

The Government, not surprisingly, are taking a very statist approach to nature and are giving more powers to Natural England. I would advise against that. Natural England has a poor record on protecting nature. It lacks effectiveness and efficiency. A lot of people have said that. I have been waiting—I am still waiting—for over two months for a reply from the chief executive of Natural England. In recent evidence reviews, it has ignored up-to-date scientific evidence which is contrary to its own thoughts.

The funding of Natural England is a concern, but there is even more of a concern when it comes to EDPs and the nature restoration levy. As Tony Juniper, the chair of Natural England, has told us, that is an unpredictable pipeline of money. How will Natural England do a job when it has an unpredictable supply of money?

I hope the Minister will confirm that the private sector is still going to be involved. The private sector has done a huge amount that can help in the development of nature; in particular, with chalk streams. I am glad the right reverend Prelate is back in his place. He mentioned chalk streams and I will support him all the way on that. My final plea to the Minister is: please can we clarify all these overlapping policies—spatial policies, biodiversity net gain requirements, new grey-belt plans, environment outcome regulations, the 25-year farming road map, the environmental improvement plan, and local nature recovery strategies—and how we are going to link those in with EDPs?

Planning and Infrastructure Bill

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 11th September 2025 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I have put my name to Amendment 147, but before I come to that, I want to say how much I support what the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, said. We need this jigsaw of plans and ideas to work on the ground.

The advantage of being sweeper behind my noble friend Lord Trenchard and the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, is that most of what I was going to say has already been said. I just reiterate the key point that we are failing to look after our national treasure of chalk streams. We have only about 280 in this country, which run from west Dorset up to Yorkshire, but those represent 85% of the chalk streams in the world.

Chalk streams are paying the price for being located often in some of the busiest areas of the country and they can be subject to both the direct impacts of development—for example, building next to a chalk stream—and the indirect effects of new development, in terms of additional water requirement and water discharges.

Only 17% of chalk stream water bodies are achieving “high” or “good” status under the water framework. It is clear that further work is needed to protect them. The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, mentioned the recent work of Brighton University on the Itchen. One of the interesting things about that research—and I hope the Minister has read it—is the amount of tyre particles that were found. Can the Minister please confirm that any developments and infrastructure, including transport, will not create further pathways for contaminated surface water and road run-off to enter chalk streams and the drains, streams and brooks that feed them? Special status is needed for these globally rare and locally precious treasures to drive investment and ensure protection and restoration.

The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, mentioned the local nature recovery strategies. She is right that those in themselves are not good enough and there are streams in Norfolk and Suffolk that are not included within LNRSs. LNRSs cannot account for a catchment-wide approach as chalk streams often span multiple local areas, so it is vital that local authorities work together if we are going to save our chalk streams, and that is why the spatial development strategy is important to them.

In conclusion, these low-energy, globally important river systems cannot simply be moved and certainly cannot be recreated elsewhere, so off-setting any impact via approaches such as the nature restoration fund is impossible. The practical, sensible solution is to give them greater protection where they are and include them in any spatial development plan. When I was in government, I was very pleased to work with the Minister on chalk streams. We worked well together and successfully. The tables are now turned; it is up to the Minister whether she will work with us.

[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

My Lords, I support several of the amendments and will speak to most of them. Amendment 146, the lead amendment, is, in essence, the right approach. The importance of chalk streams has been mentioned. I used to live near the chalk stream in Hampshire, the River Test, and as a Minister I visited many.

I welcome the speeches by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, and the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, about the importance of local nature recovery strategies and the land use framework. My noble friends Lord Trenchard and Lord Caithness have gently teased the Minister—often it is easy to say things in opposition and then, all of a sudden, you have to face the realities of government.

The noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, asked about the land use framework. A couple of years ago, I wrote quite a substantial LUF. MHCLG—DLUHC at the time—was concerned about the impact it could have on housebuilding, when we were trying to get a combination of food security and the development of homes and the like. The good news is that it was Steve Reed, who was Secretary of State at Defra until a few days ago, who put out this consultation. Now, of course, he is Secretary of State at MHCLG. I hope that, in his new department, he will not put a barrier in the way of the land use framework, and that together with the new Secretary of State for Defra, Emma Reynolds, this can be published as quickly as possible. I am conscious that new Secretaries of State often want to have a look at these things, but I am sure that Emma Reynolds will trust the judgment of Steve Reed and have an excellent land use framework, which should absolutely be incorporated into spatial development strategies.

I will not say more about LNRSs, other than to say they will be one of the most critical things to happen as a consequence of local government. Therefore, it is a no-brainer that they should be an integral part of SDSs.

I appreciate that the noble Baroness, Lady Grender, who tabled the amendment, cannot respond, but I will pick up on that separately. I want to get clarity on permissible activities. I would not want the SDS to start getting into the nitty-gritty of where there are existing rights. For example, there will be challenges around abstraction rights for a lot of landowners and farmers in 2027, when there will be a significant reduction in abstraction. The people putting together the SDS should be aware of that and need to think carefully about how that interplay goes. However, while it should be considered, I am not convinced the SDS should be the way in which permitting starts to happen—though I may have misinterpreted the amendment.

One reason why the Test is the best place in the world to go fishing for various kinds of trout is that it is a chalk stream. It was fishing that got Feargal Sharkey into the whole issue of water. Through my friend Charles Walker, who used to be an MP until the last election, when he retired—it happens to be his birthday today, so happy birthday to Charles—I know that anglers are very protective of those rights and substantially concerned about the water. My noble friend referred to the importance of good eco status. The Environment Agency’s principal measure in assessing eco status is the size of fish—it is a classic measure. There is a reason for that, and, as a consequence, that is why anglers are so involved. I would be nervous if the spatial development strategy started to get involved in aspects of licensing in that regard.

My noble friend Lord Trenchard tabled the related Amendment 355, which is more strategic and will be debated in a later group, but in one fell swoop Amendment 354 would give formal designation and protection status to rivers, which at the moment only 11% of chalk streams have. That is a clever device in order to achieve the outcomes your Lordships would want.

I wish the Minister well in making sure that her new Secretary of State gives a clean bill to what he proposed in his previous role, and that we get the land use framework as a welcome Christmas present, not only for this House but for the country at large.

Planning and Infrastructure Bill

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 15th September 2025 Lords Chamber

It took me a while to get my head around Amendment 211, but the higher spend of Natural England after compulsorily purchasing something would demonstrate that the contract offered to the owner had indeed been underpriced and the owner had been quite correct to reject it. In other words, compulsory purchase was wrongly used as the site owner had not been made a reasonable offer to take on the contract. Where such sharp practice occurs, the site owner should have the land returned to them or at least be compensated. Amendment 211 is a probing amendment. I support it and I will be very interested to see how the Minister chooses to respond to it.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I put my name to Amendment 211. I support what my noble friend Lord Roborough said on it, and indeed what my noble friend Lord Sandhurst said on his amendment.

I was a chartered surveyor back in 1976 when development land tax was introduced, and I recall the disastrous effect it had on the market for land becoming available for development. There is no doubt that clauses such as those we have in the Bill will have the same deleterious effect on the natural process of buying and selling land and encouraging landowners to provide land for development and therefore fulfil some of the housing needs of this country.

It seems to me quite wrong to get rid of hope value in the way that the Government are doing. It is not, in the words of my noble friend Lord Sandhurst, a fair deal. It is unjust. I too remember the Crichel Down case, which my noble friend mentioned. In fact, I remember talking to Lord Nugent of Guildford, the Minister who resigned over the affair. That shows how old I am now, but it reinforces my dislike of the chances of the land not being returned to the original owner. That is the purport of Amendment 211. I wish my noble friend Lord Nugent was still alive and in his place, because he would be able to give an erudite summary of the difficult problems. I hope that the Government will think again on this issue.

[Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their amendments in this group. Amendments 209B and 209C, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, seek to amend Clause 105 and expand the power introduced by the Levelling-up and Regeneration Act for compulsory purchase orders to be confirmed with directions for the non-payment of hope value compensation where justified in the public interest. The amendments propose to extend the types of CPOs for which directions removing hope value may be sought to CPOs for the provision of sporting and recreational facilities. The amendments seek to introduce a change so that CPOs for the provision of sporting and recreational facilities would not have to facilitate affordable housing provision when seeking directions removing hope value.

While the Government recognise the value of parks and playing fields to our communities—we had a very interesting debate on this subject twice in last week’s Committee—I am afraid we are not able to support these amendments. The non-payment of hope value to landowners through the use of CPO powers must be proportionate and carefully justified in the public interest.

Affordable housing, education and health are types of public sector-led development where the public benefits to be facilitated through the non-payment of hope value can be directly demonstrable to local communities. The Government have concerns that the public benefits and the justification for lower compensation for landowners are likely to be less compelling for sporting and recreational facilities. The proposed changes could make it difficult for authorities to justify directions removing hope value in the public interest, as the benefits to be delivered are clearly less identifiable.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Roborough, for his Amendment 210. This seeks to repeal Section 14A of the Land Compensation Act 1961, which provides the power for CPOs to be confirmed with directions removing hope value where justified in the public interest for certain types of schemes. The amendment also seeks to remove Clause 105 from the Bill, which proposes to expand the direction power to CPOs made on behalf of town and parish councils for schemes that include affordable housing, and to make the process for determining CPOs with directions more efficient. The amendment would remove the power, which was introduced, as he rightly said, by the last Government under the Levelling-up and Regeneration Act. It allows authorities to take forward certain types of schemes by compulsory purchase, and to pay reduced value for land where it will deliver clear and significant benefits and is justified in the public interest. To support the delivery of housing and infrastructure that this country desperately needs, we must make better use of underutilised land across the country. We know that many local authorities share this objective, but their plans can be delayed by heightened expectations of land values by landowners. This can result in the delivery of benefits to the public through the building of homes, transport links and schools being more costly, and significant amounts of developable land remaining unused.

The Government are committed to improving land assembly, speeding up site delivery and delivering development for the benefit of communities. We also remain committed to ensuring that landowners are awarded fair compensation where compulsory purchase powers are used to deliver schemes in the public interest. I therefore kindly ask the noble Lord not to move his amendment.

Amendment 211, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Roborough, would require Natural England to return any land obtained through compulsory purchase orders where the value of the work carried out exceeded the price of the original contract offered to the landowner. I thank him for his amendment. As noble Lords will be aware, we will discuss the nature restoration fund and the role and powers granted to Natural England in more detail later this afternoon. To successfully deliver this new strategic approach, we must ensure that Natural England has sufficient powers and resources to implement the conservation measures required. We expect Natural England to consider using compulsory purchase powers only once other options to acquire the land have been exhausted, especially trying to acquire that land by agreement. Where land is acquired by compulsory purchase, this will be subject to appropriate scrutiny and oversight, including authorisation by the Secretary of State. The landowner will receive compensation in line with the existing approach.

Requiring Natural England to return land in the circumstances set out in the amendment would undermine the rationale for allowing Natural England to have these powers in the first place. Some conservation measures will require Natural England to acquire land, whether by agreement or, where the Secretary of State considers it appropriate, through compulsory purchase. Having this range of options provides certainty that conservation measures can be delivered. It is fundamental to the Secretary of State being satisfied that the overall improvement test will be met.

In line with the safeguards provided in the Bill, if land were required to be returned as envisaged by this amendment, this could lead to the environmental delivery plan needing to be amended because conservation measures would no longer be delivering as intended. That would reduce the amount of development that the EDP would cover; increase cost to developers; or trigger the need to revoke the EDP, requiring the Secretary of State to consider appropriate remedial action to ensure that the impact of development is addressed in line with the overall improvement test.

I recognise that the use of compulsory purchase powers is an issue close to the hearts of many noble Lords. However, I trust that the Committee can recognise the need for these targeted powers, to ensure that the nature recovery fund delivers the much-needed win-win for nature and development. In a meeting with Natural England and a number of noble Lords who are here today, Natural England said that it had used the power only three times ever. I do not anticipate it doing this all the time.

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[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, I speak from a building that is full of moths—but I have never tried eating them.

I approve of Amendment 227GA, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle; it goes to the root of the fact that we must find ways of living with and closer to nature. It ought to be slightly more detailed, so that I am allowed to exclude mice, but the overall principle—that we provide for wildlife living alongside us—is right.

Although I have had provision for swifts for the past 15 years, it has never had a swift in it—principally, I think, because there are probably not enough insects for the swifts to live on. We therefore need to provide a full habitat and not just a nesting place. Swift bricks sound far too much like an easy exit for the Government that will allow them to say, “Tick. Don’t need to do anything more”. I very much hope they can be tempted in the direction that the noble Baroness has outlined for them.

I also hope that they will do something about birds crashing into glass. It is simple: there are technical solutions, and we can live with them. We ought not to do this to birds. Just change the rules and, over time, we will do much less damage.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Randall’s amendment, but I ask the Government not to accept it. I do that for two reasons. First, swifts are not the only migratory birds to come back on migration. Secondly, I believe that if the Government conceded to swifts, they would be able to say, “We’ve done something, we’ve pleased the environmental lobby and now we need not do anything more”. That is a typical reaction of government. I am therefore more attracted to Amendments 225 and 227GA.

The noble Baroness, Lady Freeman of Steventon, reminded us that 30 million birds in the UK get killed on migration. In America, the figure is up to 1 billion, and in Canada it is over 40 million. In this country, cats do not cause as many bird deaths, but they are responsible for a significant number. Therefore, we need to look at this subject much more holistically.

On the question of migration, a huge problem was identified by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, when she discussed the convention centre in Chicago. I would like to add a PS to her story about 1,000 birds in a single night. Since some people have done the simple remedial work of applying small white dots and a two-inch grid pattern to the surface of windows, there has been a 95% reduction in fatalities during the migration period. That is a bonus for the environment and biodiversity that we should aim for.

I will mention one thing that other noble Lords have not mentioned: the planting around buildings. It has been proven that birds get very confused by some types of hedging and trees. When that is reflected in the glass, it disorientates the birds. Although we are all pressing for more trees, shrubbery and greenery, we need to be very careful that we are not building in bird deaths in the process. I hope that the Government will take a holistic look at this and do something that benefits biodiversity and the birds.

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, this is the first time I have had the opportunity to congratulate the Minister on surviving the Defra ministerial massacre. I am absolutely delighted and hope she enjoins all her female colleagues in her attempts to improve the environment.

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[Lord Fuller (Con)]

My Lords, I want to speak strongly for Amendments 334, 346DD and 346DE in the name of my noble friend Lord Roborough. Two years after your Lordships’ House last considered nutrient neutrality, my noble friend’s amendments seek to break the nutrient neutrality deadlock, de-layer this cat’s cradle of conflicting regulations and allow us to focus on those things for best effort.

Three and a half years ago, in 2022, nutrient neutrality rules were created, and then, at a stroke, they hunky-bunkered over 200,000 planning applications in over 75 planning authorities—planning authorities which for the most part have the greatest housing potential, because they are the ones clustered around the conurbations and thus have the greatest capacity to deliver housing growth.

I was the council leader in one of these areas. At a stroke, together with our two neighbouring authorities, over 45,000 houses in a plan were made mute. We will never get roofs over people’s heads, including through affordable and social housing, while homes are not being built.

My noble friend’s amendment gets to the heart of this; it allows us to ask the fundamental question as to whether stopping housebuilding will clean up our rivers. At the outset, let us be clear: the statutory responsibility for ensuring a clean environment falls variously upon Defra, the Environment Agency, Natural England—the statutory water undertakings for the effective running of sewage treatment works.

These bodies have the funding, the powers and the responsibility for cleaning up our rivers, but the nutrient neutrality rulings transfer those responsibilities to a completely different class of organisation with no obvious statutory or financial resources to do so: local councillors, the planning departments of local planning authorities, and the housebuilding industry more generally. It is a buck-passing from those who should be designing and implementing solutions, in favour of the LPAs and builders who do not have any control over the matter at all. Taking all the homes in the UK, the Home Builders Federation estimates that, of all the current planning applications that would be built, it would add just 0.92% to the overall housing stock of 25 million dwellings.

We have to consider materiality here. At this point, I feel I should declare that, when I was not leading a council in a previous life, my business was in the fertiliser industry. I have a degree in agriculture, I studied soil science, and I have built a career around advising on effective plant nutrition and the role of nutrients in soils. If I was on Mastermind, this would be my specialist subject.

As I reflect on my own experience, it is now widely understood that the nutrient effect of the impact of new homes, over and above the existing homes in rural places such as Norfolk or Herefordshire, might contribute just 0.2% of the total phosphate load in a catchment. Put another way, out of 500 potential mitigating strategies, 499 are more likely to reduce phosphate emissions in a catchment than prevent new homes being built. In essence, not building a handful of homes in Holverston connected to a Klargester will not clean-up Rockland Broad, to give a very local example.

It is important to restate why the restrictions have been imposed. The test in the habitats regulations and in law is to avoid “significant damage” to a special area of conservation—significant damage, not purely harm. I will never understand why we have stopped our second-largest economic sector, construction, and put tens of thousands of people out of work while serially sacrificing our housebuilding targets on the altar of nutrient neutrality—a marginal future gain of just 0.2%, when the problem exists here and now.

We are aiming at the wrong target by stopping housebuilding. Just ask the people of the Hereford catchment of the River Wye whether building a few less homes will clean up their river, or whether the wholesale processing and removing of animal waste from the catchment might be a better approach. There, it is generally accepted that 80% of the nutrient load in places like Herefordshire comes from poultry manures—not from industry, or even existing homes; still less from homes that have not yet been built.

Elsewhere in your Lordships’ House, the Environment and Climate Change Committee recently heard that over 20 million tonnes of sludges, slurries and digestates are applied to land from anaerobic digesters, and some of it on valley sides. I would venture to say that the Government would be better advised to focus on this issue, rather than stopping builders building. In essence, there is a dilemma. Do we focus on the 80%, or the 0.2%?

That is why I like the noble Lord’s amendment. It enables us to focus our minds on where the substantive problem is. It directs us at the big numbers, not the trivial numbers. It stops us worrying about the 0.2% that might come from the building of new homes and from the flushing of their loos, damaging a significant contributor to the local economies and supply chains. Instead, the amendment seeks to allow a regulatory focus on where the real problem lies, which is principally with organic manures and digestates applied to land on bare stubbles, with nutrients which become mobilised much later in the summer, after harvest, when the ground has warmed up. The summer rains produce the ideal conditions to break them down into mobile phosphates, but not when the growing crops are there to absorb them, so they run off.

If we focus on some of the bigger issues rather than the marginal ones, it might allow the Government to have a joined-up approach. We might even start to provide the grounds again for slurry schemes and storage, which were cancelled in the previous year; that is the key to handling the problem. The best chance of breaking this deadlock and getting new homes built quickly, as the noble Lord has said, is to take the rapier to Part 3 of the Bill and to work out how can we solve the problem, rather than misdirecting ourselves towards small harms. We need to address the big consequences that are harming our economy and our ability to grow, and to get roofs over the heads of the people who need those homes. These are not rich people. We need affordable housing, housing in villages, and housing on brownfield land. All this is hunky-bunker, and we must sweep it away and focus on the big target, not the little one.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, Part 3 of the Bill gives new wide-ranging powers to Natural England, which has been heavily involved in all aspects of Part 3, much of which has been made up on the hoof as the Bill progressed. Part 3 also contains a good dollop of empire building by Natural England. We should be very circumspect about agreeing this when the Office for Environmental Protection criticises it as environmental aggression and a leaked report suggests that the EU has similar concerns.

Like many of your Lordships, I have been concerned about NE for some time. There have been regular press comments about the mistakes that it makes. It is often criticised for being slow, bureaucratic and inefficient in decision-making. It seems too focused on prescriptive top-down solutions, ignoring the experience of the practitioner, and slow to embrace new technologies in environmental management. Farmers and land managers have lost trust in it, which is a disaster for nature. NE is not fit for purpose. I want to examine why.

Some key factors interlink and have a compounding effect. A major problem for NE is its structure. Where scientific expertise and sound judgment is a prerequisite, there is a lack of good in-house scientists and the consultants that it uses sometimes do not have the expertise needed. Over the last 20 years, due to budgetary constraints, the best scientific experts—and therefore the most expensive to employ—have left the organisation. It used to employ highly regarded scientists but now, with some notable exceptions, it is an organisation operated by low-grade civil servants with insufficient supervision or control by scientific specialists. Yet it is an organisation on whose judgments Ministers must rely, and legal regimes rest. Making those scientific judgments is even more challenging due to Section 63(5) of the Conservation of Habitats and Species Regulations 2017, which sets out a requirement to prove a negative. This is a reversal of the usual burden of proof under the law, raising a fundamental problem which only good scientists can tackle competently.

The job is made much harder because the precautionary principle, which is not mentioned in the habitat regulations, has been established by case law and must be applied to habitat assessment. Here we have a problem. What is the precautionary principle? It has no constant legal definition. Regardless of that, it is cited by NE as justification for giving weight to hypothetical risks for which there is no credible evidence and without being questioned.

So the requirement to prove a negative must be very tightly regulated, as without proper oversight the system is open to abuse. Because of NE’s structure, that abuse is increasingly evident. It is much easier for the civil servant to say no, even though that decision is based on myth or prejudice rather than sound science. This then sets a precedent for future decisions and the downward spiral continues.

That “safe decision” attitude, which pervades NE, is now the ingrained cultural attitude and the reason why it makes so many perverse decisions. Such decisions lead to more costly and/or delayed development, with little or no benefit to the environment. As an example, NE’s assessments of general licence applications 43 and 45 have revealed inconsistencies, a lack of understanding that game management activities are intrinsic to releasing activity, an overprecautionary approach based on bird flu risks and a presumption of negative impact. GL43 and GL45 were brought in to address environmental and legal issues, not bird flu.

NE has become an increasingly powerful organisation that can do what it wants without challenge. Frighteningly, the Bill seeks to give it yet more power. It cannot be challenged from within. However good the executives or members of the board of trustees are, they are not ecologists and they are not equipped to challenge the scientific approach, even if based on myth adopted by the case officer.

It is hard to challenge from without. Developers know how powerful NE is and do not want to campaign publicly for fear of damaging their relationships and having greater difficulty with their schemes in the future. This leads to a conspiracy of silence. Those who wish to challenge NE from outside are faced with every obstruction. I will go into the case of Biocore Agri Ltd in more detail on later amendments. In summary, Biocore was given approval by NE for its scheme in the nutrient market, only for NE to say it would refuse a detailed application due to a change of mind. Not surprisingly, this inconsistency has upset Biocore and it has challenged NE. I am told that, in retaliation, NE has now threatened not to answer future correspondence from Biocore. Given that NE has obstructed the private sector on nutrients, what confidence can we have that NE will not behave in exactly the same way when it comes to EDPs?

I have had the temerity to question NE’s science and scientists. Luckily, I have no land and NE has no hold on me. On 22 April, I wrote in some detail to the CEO setting out my concerns about the science that NE uses regarding wildfires and asked for a meeting. After long delays and a refusal to be allowed to speak to her or her office, I received a reply from a member of her staff, which included the words: “We do not feel such a meeting to discuss our approach to evidence would be productive”. However, I have now heard from the CEO, who has offered a meeting. It will be in October, six months after I asked for it, but it would not be taking place had I not asked the Minister, to whom I am grateful, to look into the matter.

I ask your Lordships to contrast the arrogant, complacent and discourteous attitude of NE with that of the director of the Veterinary Medicines Directorate, which I emailed on 28 June with concerns about the problems fiprinol and imidacloprid are causing to the environment. I received a detailed response before the end of July. That reply gave rise to further questions and, on return from holiday, I asked for a meeting on 20 August. The response was immediate and the meeting took place before the end of the month.

Inadvertently, with NE an organisation more fearsome than the environmental arm of Rostekhnadzor in Russia has been created. This part of the Bill does nothing to rectify the deep-seated problems NE has. A wise Government would drop Part 3 and sort out NE for the benefit of the environment, development and the growth that this country so badly needs before giving it more powers which, unless reformed, it will only abuse.

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[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I have put my name to the amendments in the name of my noble friend Lady Coffey, who made an excellent speech trying to persuade the Government to take out Natural England and put in the Secretary of State. As I said on the last group of amendments, Natural England has become unaccountable and unquestionable. It is also acting as judge and jury in its own right.

If you google Natural England, you come to the GOV.UK website. Under “What we do”, it says:

“We’re the government’s adviser for the natural environment in England”.


If it is the adviser, then it is the Secretary of State who should be totally accountable, as well as the Minister in this House, whom we can question. At the moment, we cannot question Natural England in the way that we can question Ministers. I think that is entirely wrong, and I hope the Government will agree.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

Is this something the noble Earl would want extended to other government agencies? Is he envisaging that, with the Environment Agency, for example, all the powers should be held by Ministers and only delegated on sufferance? The Forestry Commission is in a slightly different position because it is a non-ministerial government department. I am just trying to understand whether this is something he thinks is a good point of principle for a Government’s relationship with all their agencies, or whether this is a witch hunt against Natural England.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

No, it is not a witch hunt against Natural England by itself, because I think a lot of the agencies suffer from exactly the same problem. However, this Bill is giving Natural England huge executive powers which it has not got at the moment. Those executive powers should be used by the Secretary of State so that they can be questioned in Parliament.

My noble friend Lady Coffey also spoke about Natural England’s capabilities. It is worth looking at some of its capabilities. It manages a national nature reserve at Moor House; it is the only one it manages directly. It was supposed to be a beacon of best practice and demonstration. After 70 years of quango management, of the 25 sites of special scientific interest, only five are in favourable condition—as assessed by Natural England itself—and the rest, 80%, are either unfavourable, declining or in one case destroyed. In Dartmoor, the trust between farmers, landowners and Natural England broke down so seriously two years ago that the Conservative Government had to commission a review chaired by David Fursdon. That reflects very badly on Natural England.

More recently, Natural England launched a new interactive peat map and invited the public to use it to inform responses to a live Defra consultation on heather burning. One would think that was fairly simple and straightforward; what could go wrong? Well, within minutes of the map becoming live, owners, farmers and tenants highlighted major inaccuracies in this new mapping tool, making any work based on it of spurious value. These were not minor glitches, but a basic failure of environmental cartography. Natural England’s track record is not very good. In fact, it is pretty useless. I therefore strongly urge the Government to change the wording of the Bill as proposed in the amendments from my noble friend Lady Coffey and myself.

I commend and support the amendment from my noble friend Lord Lucas. If we are going to go down this route with Natural England, it is hugely important that trusted partners take on the work of running the EDPs. If you look at some of the farming clusters already set up and ready to do this, it is much better that people who live on and work the land are the ones who take over and run the EDPs, rather than a quango based elsewhere, which is not there on a daily basis. I will be talking more about the trusted partner in later amendments, but the principle of what my noble friend Lord Lucas wants to do is absolutely right.

[Earl Russell (LD)]

My Lords, I shall speak very briefly to this group of amendments on the role of Natural England. It is a big group, so I will not respond to everyone at this late hour. It is clear that there are remaining concerns about the Bill in terms of not weakening nature protections and the complexity of the new systems that are being put in place. There are two problems here. There is the complexity of what needs to be done and there is the issue of whether Natural England is able to deliver on what it is required to do under the terms set out in this legislation, should it be passed.

Natural England is absolutely central to delivering the environmental delivery plans and the nature restoration fund. I want to return very briefly to the comments in the paper today, because I think this is important. The Government cannot both create more complicated systems that as a result of their actions require more people to do more things, to see that the duties made by their legislation get done, and at the same time say that the actual organisations that need to deliver those need to be slashed and cut. Actually, that tension between what are almost two different sides of government worries me. It worries me a lot in terms of what is being done overall. I will just park that there.

Turning to the amendments of the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, of course I fully understand the intention that it is about looking at responsibility, bringing in the Secretary of State and trying to hold the Secretary of State accountable for what is being done. There is an argument to say that Natural England may not be as accountable, and I understand that. My problem is that the Bill actually sets out a process where we have EDPs and the nature restoration fund and I do not think that just changing the wording of the Bill changes any of the complexities of the reality on the ground. There are other ways that we can do that, in terms of holding the Secretary to State to account in any case, and holding Natural England to account, so I do not particularly feel that that is a solution to the complexities that are created by the legislation.

I want to speak to Amendment 328A in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, and Amendment 333 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh. I was not certain whether Amendment 328A was a probing amendment, but the noble Lord has clarified that it is. As such, I welcome it and I look forward to the Minister’s response. My view is that the national park authority should be included, and I hope that is the case, but I look forward to hearing from the Minister on that.

Amendment 333 in the names of the noble Baronesses, Lady McIntosh and Lady Young, seeks to clarify

“that the powers given to Natural England under Part 3 can only be delegated to a public body”.

I welcome this amendment. I think it is a good amendment. I also note what the Minister said on the previous group, that the intention of the Government was that it would only be a public body. We definitely welcome that statement. I think there is still perhaps a need to have this amendment to the Bill and, with that, I will sit down.

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[Lord Roborough (Con)]

My Lords, this amendment would clarify that the Secretary of State may issue statutory guidance to Natural England or any person preparing an EDP, with they must which comply. We have heard concerns during debates on Part 3 of the Bill about Natural England’s ability to manage EDPs. We also know that 160,000 houses are being held back by Natural England’s guidance on nutrient neutrality. This amendment would ensure that the Secretary of State has greater control over the process by which EDPs are made. This would give Ministers the tools they need to ensure that Part 3 is effective in delivering on their intentions.

Does the Minister agree that this discretionary power granted to Ministers would be helpful in a hypothetical circumstance where Natural England’s implementation of EDPs does not follow the Government’s intentions? I will be arguing in later groups, in support of my noble friend Lady Coffey, that Natural England should continue to report solely to the Secretary of State for Defra rather than to MHCLG as is planned in this Bill. I am deeply concerned that reporting to two separate departments is likely to lead to significant complications in management, direction and allocation of resources.

The amendments in the name of my noble friend Lord Blencathra are sensible. Amendment 270A would require Natural England to have regard to any local nature recovery strategies in preparing an EDP. The interaction between EDPs, the mitigation hierarchy and biodiversity net gain is complex for developers already, but the interaction between EDPs and other strategies for local nature recovery is also complex, especially where the conservation measures specified within an EDP interact with them. My noble friend is right that these should be taken into account by Natural England, and we are interested to hear whether the Government will accept this amendment.

Amendment 277A limits the number of EDPs that Natural England may make each year. This speaks to questions about Natural England’s suitability as the body for making EDPs. I know that several noble Lords have expressed their frustration with specific cases where Natural England has not got things right. I therefore hope that the Minister will be able to tell the House what assurances she has had from Natural England in respect of its plans to ensure that it has the appropriate staffing and skills in place to deliver its functions under Part 3 of the Bill efficiently and effectively. This part of the Bill is designed to unlock development, so any delays or mistakes that have to be resolved at Natural England will hinder the achievement of that overall objective.

The amendments in the names of my noble friends Lord Lucas and Lord Caithness are all sensible amendments that probe some of the crucial questions on EDPs. The reality is that we have still not got real clarity about how well EDPs will fit into the existing environmental protections regime. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, has done some very good work on trying to understand, as the Minister described earlier, exactly how this new process for developers fits into the wider picture. I hope that the Minister can help clarify these issues further from the Dispatch Box today. I beg to move.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to support Amendment 231, moved by my noble friend Lord Roborough, and will also speak to the other amendments in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Blencathra. Currently, the Bill requires the EDP to set out the measures to be taken to address the identified impact on environmental features and to achieve overall improvement. However, no justification or explanation is required, and I believe that that is wrong.

Amendment 249 is needed to ensure that an EDP states that the scientific basis for the conservation measures is considered appropriate, as this will provide greater confidence in the ability of the EDP to contribute to an overall improvement and therefore improved outcomes for nature. Monitoring will also be key to achieving success, as required by Clause 57(7), so it is important that this and associated costs are set out in the EDP under Clause 55(6). In addition, this amendment seeks to link the EDP with local nature recovery strategies and other relevant policies, so that it is clear how it contributes to local nature, and to identify the time frame required, given that this would vary in accordance with the impact being addressed.

Amendment 274 requires Natural England to define at an early stage the proposed conservation measures and then seek expressions of interest from persons or organisations as to their suitability to deliver these. This is key, as it opens up the opportunity for private sector involvement and would also help NE to meet its obligation under Section 57(2). I pose the same question as I did earlier to the Minister: given how Natural England has treated BioCore, as I mentioned earlier, what confidence can she give the Committee that Natural England will treat the private sector in a proper and fair manner when it comes to EDPs? If it does not, it will only be doing EDPs itself, and it will become state-owned and a disaster.

I turn now to Amendment 270 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, and myself. This amendment refers to the land use framework, which was mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, when we were discussing Amendment 214. I am sorry that she is not in her place. This amendment is to ensure that the choice of land and the choice of land management practice to be used for an EDP are not directly contrary to the principles laid out in the coming land use framework. In the same way that some of us might balk at the idea of using first-class food-producing land for, say, solar panels, we might equally balk at such high-production land being set aside solely for biodiversity. I emphasise the word “solely”, because you can produce food and biodiversity from the best land if it is managed properly. I believe it would be sensible if this Bill pre-empted the production of the land use framework and made allowance for its appearance on the scene.

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[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful for what the Minister said. She confirmed that the EDP will state the scientific basis for the conservation measures proposed. What happens if one thinks that the scientific basis is wrong? Given Natural England’s track record so far, how does one get to challenge that when one thinks it is wrong? That is going to be very important.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I cannot remember whether it was in the previous debate or the one before that, but I clarified that a vehicle for challenge is available. It is there. I cannot remember if it was mentioned in the previous debate or the one before that.

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Moved by

[The Earl of Caithness]

234: Clause 54, page 91, line 27, after “date”),” insert “which must be no later than six months after a planning permission has been granted,”
Member's explanatory statement
This seeks to ensure that there is no time drift from the granting of planning permission to the start of the delivery of the EDP.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, in moving Amendment 234, I will also speak to Amendments 235 and 236, in reverse order. Clause 54(7) relates to the start and end dates of an EDP. To ensure meaningful outcomes, the EDP timeframe should not be specified in legislation as it will clearly depend on the nature of the environmental impact and the conservation measures required.

I am sure we all agree that restoring and recreating some habitats can take considerable time to achieve full functionality. Given climate change and other environmental impacts, EDP measures will require adaptive management, hence the need for review and ongoing monitoring. What happens at the end of 10 years? How do we retain the overall improvement? How do we know that a developer will not change the new site? How do we know that a farmer will not return the site to food production in the wrong way? These are hugely important questions in order to fulfil an EDP and I do not believe it should be limited to 10 years.

Given that it is going to take a long time, I need now to look at the start date, because it is vital that, the moment planning permission is granted and thus the loss of a protected site or species is imminent, Natural England should get on with it. According to Clause 58, there is a lot of process and consultation to be carried out, and so not a moment is to be lost. We must bear in mind that the Government are legally committed to halting the decline in our biodiversity by 2030. The concern of the start date moved my noble friend Lord Cameron to poetry. He sends his apologies to Andrew Marvell, as he penned these words:

“Had we but world enough and time,


Delay my Lords would be no crime.

But at my back I always hear

Time’s winged chariot hurrying near.

And yonder all before us lie

Deserts of vast eternity

Where nature bids us all good-bye”.

We need to fire a starting gun to ensure that Natural England gets on with it, hence the amendment. I beg to move.

[Lord Roborough (Con)]

My Lords, this group of amendments addresses concerns that EDPs, as drafted in this Bill and despite the welcome improvements offered by the Government, create considerable unease over their effectiveness and the timeliness with which they will be developed to address the harm being done elsewhere.

Amendment 235A in my name recognises that 10 years is a blink of an eye in environmental terms. It might take only days to destroy a natural environment, but it takes decades to restore it and centuries to return to a more natural state. In our environment, the fastest-maturing native trees take over 30 years to mature and the slowest take over a century. Likewise, it can take decades to restore a blanket bog or peatland.

My Amendment 235B suggests 30 years as the appropriate timeframe for an EDP. The advantage of 30 years, as opposed to 10, is simply that this is a proxy for our own generational timing; that in itself is appealing, but this is also consistent with biodiversity net gain units. I fail to understand why 10 years has been regarded as appropriate for EDPs, and I look forward to the Minister explaining why this should be so. In that regard, I prefer this to Amendment 236 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington. However, his Amendment 234 is a sensible measure that would ensure there is a coincidence in the timing of the EDP and the commencement of the development.

One of the concerns expressed by developers is the reputational risk they carry if they are undertaking a development which has included the NRL as its environmental contribution, but there is no evidence of the EDP associated with that development occurring. I am sure the Minister can understand this concern and will be keen to ensure that developers do not carry that reputational risk to the actions or lack of action by Natural England.

I hope the Minister can reassure us in her reply to this short debate that these concerns are being addressed. However, there is a strong case that these issues should be dealt with in the Bill, rather than relying on guidance that can change over time. The obligations around timeliness and effectiveness of EDPs are simply too loose in the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

Given the safeguards already in place, and for all the reasons that I have set out, I hope that noble Lords will feel able to withdraw or not press their amendments.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that reply; I will have to study it with some care, given the time of night, but a lot of it did not make much sense to me.

The Minister talked about clarity and how the overall improvement needs to be demonstrated by a certain date. She also said that we need to demonstrate an environmental benefit as soon as possible. Nature does not work like that. What if there is a flood? What happens if there is drought for two years? All sorts of things in nature can put down the best schemes. You can certainly demonstrate all this on paper from Marsham Street, York or Peterborough but, out in the real world—if only Natural England would get out there—it is a very different story. My noble friend Lord Roborough mentioned planting deciduous trees. By the time they are 10 years old, they are not very high; they still need a heck of a lot of work. Blanket bog takes years. Goodness, I have lived on blanket bog in Caithness; I know that you cannot re-wet it overnight.

This is environmental theory, not practice, but I will read what the Minister said. We will come back to this on Report but, for now, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 234 withdrawn.

Planning and Infrastructure Bill

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 17th September 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

My Lords, I speak to Amendment 264A. My noble friend Lord Swire cannot be here. He has a particular theme running through on issues regarding pylons and he would appreciate a response from the Minister in regard to what he submitted. There is a broader point on how we are unfortunately going back to prioritising climate over nature, when they should go hand in hand. We hear comments like that from Ed Miliband, the Secretary of State for DESNZ, about how climate change is the number one threat to nature; I am afraid that that is not what the scientists say. It is in the top five, but is not number one. When we are considering changes in this Bill more broadly—my noble friend Lord Swire reminds us of aspects of energy infrastructure—we should have that fully in mind.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I would like to look forward to the Government’s Amendment 346E and in particular subsection (2) of the proposed new clause, which says:

“Natural England or the Secretary of State must take account of the best available scientific evidence”.


I ask the Minister whether that is going to comprise part of the EDP.

In explaining the reason I ask that, I will refer to some of the conversations I had with the Minister on Monday’s debate and, in particular, to the email that I wrote this morning asking for a more detailed reply. In reply to my contribution, the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, said that she had already spoken about getting scrutiny of the EDP. She said:

“I want to clarify that, before the EDP comes to the Secretary of State, it will be subject to proper scrutiny through public consultation”.—[Official Report, 15/9/25; col. 2003.]


It is helpful to have that, but could today’s Minister please enlighten the House about how that consultation will take place? Unless the information is cited in the EDP, it is going to be very hard to challenge. One of the complaints that I have about Natural England is how hard it is to challenge it when it comes to scientific evidence, because it hides behind the legal situation and says it is a precautionary principle: “Lump it, all of you”.

On my noble friend Lord Lucas’s amendment, I wonder if the Minister is satisfied about the present position with regard to Natural England and nutrients. My noble friend wants to limit the EDP to nutrient mitigation, and I think that is sensible and that the current situation is working well. Natural England’s nutrient mitigation scheme was set up in 2022 using £33.5 million of public money. This was based on its proposals to the Secretary of State. Since then, Natural England has spent £17.54 million setting up its off-setting scheme to generate 10,097 nutrient credits by removing 704 hectares of farmland from food production. When a new company in the private sector put forward a proposal to provide nutrient credits without taking farmland out of production, Natural England initially said yes; it then reversed its decision, as I explained on Monday.

Natural England claims that it does not make a profit from the sale of nutrient credits as they are priced at cost recovery. However, if one examines the figures, one can contradict this, because its internal costings show that a credit in Dorset costs £1,685 and that, when administration fees are accounted for, it would cost £1,938. However, it has been selling nutrient credits on the market at a significant mark-up of £3,250, plus a 10% administration fee. This suggests to me that Natural England is making a profit of up to £1,637 per nutrient credit, representing a profit margin of 45.8%.

In the letter that I received from the Ministers this morning, to which reference has already been made— I must say I am grateful for it; I wish we had had it before we began our proceedings on Monday—the last sentence of the third-from-last paragraph says:

“Once EDPs are made, we expect them to be delivered on a cost-recovery basis, while ensuring good value for money for developers by ensuring competition and innovation in the procurement of conservation measures”.


I have just shown that the nutrient market is not being operated at cost recovery by Natural England and that it is excluding the competition. How, when you have that existing situation, does the Minister really expect the EDPs to be offered on a different basis?

--- Later in debate ---

This upfront clarity is vital for developers, especially for smaller housebuilders. When a developer chooses to use an EDP, the payment of the levy legally discharges the relevant environmental obligations. This transfer of responsibility for securing environmental outcomes derisks development, which will be particularly beneficial to SME developers, which often have less resource for consultancy and legal services. The Secretary of State, when making the levy regulations, is already required to ensure that the viability of development is considered and may set different rates for different scales or types of development as well. SMEs have been an important consideration for the Government when we have been designing this legislation, so I hope that on that basis the noble Baroness will not press her amendment. With these explanations, I hope noble Lords are content not to press their amendments.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I am extremely grateful for the offer that the Minister made to join the meeting that I am going to have with Natural England. It was to be a rather focused meeting, but I am happy to widen it. I am delighted that the noble Baroness would come. That would be extremely helpful. I hope that Natural England will give us time to have a proper meeting on heather burning and fuel load, as well as EDPs and the scientific advice, and make it a broader meeting. I am extremely grateful to her and I thank her very much.

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[Lord Randall of Uxbridge (Con)]

It seems to me that the Minister and the department have shot my fox, except I know the Minister is not really keen on shooting foxes at all. In fact, although they have not agreed to my amendments, the very thing that I wanted is in government Amendment 346E. I think that is right. I will blame the fact that I have new glasses and cannot read things very well, but I assume that this is the case, and that is probably enough for me to say.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, like my noble friend who has just spoken, my amendments in this group are about challenging the EDP. We spoke about that on the last amendment; I do not think there is any need for me to repeat myself. I express my thanks to the Minister, who will probably go into this in quite some detail.

[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, my Amendment 285AA is about the way in which the Secretary of State approves EDPs. As currently drafted, the Bill says:

“The Secretary of State may make the EDP”—


that is, approve it—

“only if the Secretary of State considers that the EDP passes the overall improvement test”.

The “overall improvement test” is the key test of whether an EDP is sufficient and should go ahead but the Bill does not make it clear on what basis the Secretary of State will make his consideration. If I understand it correctly, the Secretary of State who will do this part of the process is the Secretary of State at MHCLG and not Defra, unless I have misunderstood what the Minister has just said.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)]

I understand the point that the noble Lord is making. When a developer opts for an EDP, there will be a clear statement of the costs. But I think it would be useful to have a conversation between now and Report, so I am very happy to do that.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the full reply that the noble Baroness has given. Can I ask her just to lift the lid a little bit on the timing of the public consultation? How long a time are the Government thinking of between the Secretary of State receiving an EDP and confirming or denying the EDP? How long is that public consultation going to be?

[Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)]

As the noble Earl will be aware, there are standard timings for government consultations, so we would employ those principles as set out in the government regulations for all consultations. If the noble Earl is not familiar with those, I can certainly send him the details.

Planning and Infrastructure Bill

Earl of Caithness Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 17th September 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I have also got rid of Japanese knotweed—I have not had much success with Himalayan balsam, though.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Roborough, for Amendments 253, 296 and 297, and the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, for Amendment 253B. I will consider these together because they all relate to invasive non-native species and the nature restoration fund. The Government recognise the impacts of invasive non-native species on our native species and ecosystems. As the Minister for invasive non-native species, I appreciate the noble Lords’ intentions in tabling these amendments, but they do not align with the targeted nature of the nature restoration fund.

However, I reassure noble Lords that I have a particular bee in my bonnet about how we best tackle invasive non-native species, because they can have a devastating impact on our native biodiversity. Himalayan balsam means that nothing grows at all, and it wrecks riverbanks. However, it is about not only what is here at the moment and how we manage it but how we stop more invasive species coming in. That is a huge challenge. While I am on that subject, the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, asked about the list—it is retained EU law, but we have been reviewing and amending it in order to tailor it to UK circumstances.

Amendment 253 would require Natural England to take action to eradicate the invasive non-native species that could negatively impact an EDP’s environmental features. The legislation already allows invasive non-native species control to act as a conservation measure, where this would support the action of Natural England to materially outweigh the impact of development on the relevant environmental feature. However, we should recognise that it might not always be the best option in terms of environmental impact, value for money and delivery considerations, such as the need to secure the overall improvement by the EDP end date.

Requiring action to eradicate invasive non-native species, regardless of these considerations, could delay EDPs, increase costs, and limit the ability to secure positive environmental outcomes. With these amendments, the Secretary of State would be required to revoke an EDP—even one delivering effectively for nature—because of the presence of a single grey squirrel, which does not make sense in the bigger picture. Making EDPs contingent on mandatory eradication in this way could also make them unviable. On the grey squirrel question, the noble Lord asked about the sterilisation programme. To confirm, the programme is ongoing, and is being supported by Defra.

Amendment 253B, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, seeks to require bodies exercising powers relating to an EDP to ensure that legal obligations under the Weeds Act 1959 are “publicised, observed and enforced”. The Weeds Act grants powers for the Defra Secretary of State to serve landowners with a requirement to remove the weeds specified within the Act, and ensures that landowners retain responsibility for their own land, instead of public bodies needing to act.

EDPs are a targeted tool to address the impact of development on specific environmental features. Introducing a broad obligation for Natural England, and others exercising responsibilities relating to EDPs, would expand the scope of EDPs, and risk diverting focus from their core purpose. The noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, and others discussed ragwort. I assure the noble Lord that there is nothing in this legislation that would preclude Natural England or others from taking action in line with the Weeds Act, such as reporting the presence of ragwort where this is encountered, or from appropriately removing such weeds where Natural England, or delivery partners, are delivering conservation measures on the ground. With these explanations, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Roborough, will withdraw his amendment.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I was interested in that debate, and would like to pick up what the Minister said. Given her responsibilities, could she update us on the point my noble friend Lord Roborough made about the grey squirrel? Could she be a little more specific about the up-to-date situation on that, but also on deer in general, which are causing havoc to young plantations and farmland? Those might not include non-native or invasive species, but there are far too many deer in the countryside.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

One of the main deer that cause a problem is non-native, but we will not go into that. The department is currently producing the revised deer strategy, which I am sure we can share with the noble Earl when it is produced. The noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, is working closely with the group working on the grey squirrel sterilisation programme. I have had meetings with him and his colleagues, but I cannot provide the details of that, as it is something that they are driving forward themselves. It may be worth the noble Earl having a conversation with the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, and we are supporting the work that he and his group are doing.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I have added my name to my noble friend Lord Roborough’s Amendment 313 and will speak to that and to my Amendments 311, 316 and 318. I hope my noble friend’s Amendment 313 is an easy one for the Minister to accept or at least confirm that the situation will not take place at all when it comes to compulsory purchase orders.

On Amendment 311, I have three items I would like to see included in the regulations. Two refer to the mitigation hierarchy. We discussed that at some length on Amendment 245, so I will not say anything more about that. One of the items I would like to add to the regulations is that they should require Natural England to consider a delivery hierarchy, such that preference is given to those bodies and persons implementing the EDP. I believe that will encourage the private sector to take its appropriate share of the work of EDPs and keep the money with the people who actually manage the land, tend it and care for it, not just for 10 years of an EDP but for the future generations as well.

Amendment 316 seeks to clarify the legal obligations or liabilities of other parties, such as landowners and farmers, in accepting NRF funds delivered to the EDP. Amendment 318 seeks to provide further clarity on the involvement of an appropriate body, not just a public authority. I hope the Minister will be able to confirm exactly what is meant in the Bill on that point.

[Lord Gascoigne (Con)]

My Lords, I wish to speak to a whole raft of amendments in my name in this Marshalled List: Amendments 307, 308A, 309, 310, 312 and 314. All are designed to ensure that the money raised through Part 3 for the nature restoration fund is actually spent on nature recovery rather than bureaucracy and process. This should concern us all because, as we have discussed repeatedly, Part 3 establishes what I see as an elaborate and quite ambiguous mechanism which does, in effect, carve out some developers from certain responsibilities.

Overall, my general approach to legislation is that it needs to be as comprehensive, clear and coherent as possible. We should not seek to keep things vague on purpose, because all that does is create problems, issues and delays down the line. Yet, as drafted, I fear that the Bill leaves a huge amount open to legal interpretation and case law. I am not speaking to any agency, body or department—perhaps it is more a reflection of human nature itself—but my experience is that where there is an ambiguous process, there is a tendency for government and others not to feel as much pressure on the need to deliver cost-effectiveness. On something as bold as this scheme, I fear that there is a likelihood of going through copious administrative procedure to mitigate litigation risk. Obviously, these copious administration procedures cost, and I suppose the ultimate question is: is it fair that nature pays that cost?

These amendments seek to limit the power of Natural England to take a cut from the fund at the expense of nature. I am sure that some will balk at this concept and ask where the money comes from, but that is not the debate here. I am seeking to ensure that the funds raised from developers are spent on their proper purpose. We should recognise that Natural England already has generous provisions allowing for it to charge fees for licenses and other work through Section 11 of the Natural Environment and Rural Communities Act 2006.

Amendment 307 seeks to limit the amount that Natural England can charge in accordance with those existing provisions. Could the Minister explain whether they no longer see those existing provisions as sufficient to recover legitimate costs for Natural England?

Amendment 309 seeks to ensure that any charges taken are used to work within the same local authority boundary. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, who, sadly, is not in his place, for adding his name to the amendment. The amendment makes it clear that the levy raised must be spent within the same planning authority from where the levy originated. I am happy to discuss my reason for tabling the amendment, and there can be debate about whether it is too narrow in its definition. As currently drafted, however, the money raised from one site can be spent anywhere. I am blessed, as I am sure the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, will agree, to have been born in God’s own county of Lancashire. More recently, I confess, I have moved somewhere else. Hypothetically speaking, there is nothing in the Bill, as drafted, for a site to be taken out of where I live in Surrey now—

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In response to an interesting comment from the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, of course farmers and landowners know their land better than Natural England, but it may interest him to know that I and other landowners and farmers have been receiving letters from Natural England asking us if we would share that information with it. I wonder whether that has anything to do with its new-found powers coming in this Bill. I very much look forward to hearing the Minister’s response.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, what my noble friend Lord Roborough has said is very important. I draw the Committee’s attention to an announcement in February of this year from the Environmental Farmers Group, which comprises about 4% of England’s farmland—nearly a million acres—and over 700 farmers. Before the powers of this Bill got into print or came to this House, the Environmental Famers Group managed to reach an agreement with Natural England that satisfied Natural England and the local authority, and ended the moratorium on housebuilding between Salisbury and Christchurch. Thousands of new houses will be built as a result of this agreement, and the environment will benefit. It would be a tragedy if this Bill inadvertently started to block agreements such as that and Natural England resorted to compulsory purchase and a state attitude that it is the only one that can do it. It is vital, as the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood said, that every possible angle is kept open for the private sector in its various forms to contribute to the benefit of biodiversity, development and growth in this country.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Curry, for Amendments 258, 268 and 353. These amendments speak to the role that private providers of nature services will play in the delivery of the NRF.

We share the desire of the noble Lord—and that of other noble Lords who have spoken in this debate—to support private sector investment in nature. We are clear that private and third-party providers will play a critical role in delivering the NRF. By design, this Bill allows a partnership approach to the delivery of conservation measures. This includes explicit reference in Clause 76 to paying others to undertake conservation measures. The Government expect Natural England to use competitive procurement approaches, wherever appropriate, to ensure innovation and value for money.

As the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, said, we tried to spell this out a little better in the letter that we sent round. It explained that EDPs will provide new opportunities for the private sector, habitat banks, farmers, local authorities and environmental groups to supply nature services. Of course, local solutions are an important part of this, but I am happy to write to the noble Lord regarding processes. As part of the wider measures to support the NRF, the Government will issue guidance to natural England specifically on this point.

The noble Lord also asked about the percentage of the levy that would go to conservation measures and how much would be spent on other things. We cannot be specific on that because clearly it will depend on the nature and size of the EDP and the measures that are going to be agreed. Admin will be able to be claimed for, but the overall focus is delivering the conservation measures—that is what we want the money to be spent on. There will be charging schedules which will provide more information.

The problem with enforcing the binary choice in the amendments is that it would reduce the role for private solutions as part of the implementation of Part 3 of the Bill. My The noble Lord—I think I will call him my noble friend—Lord Inglewood rightly said that we need choices in order to have the best outcomes for nature.

On Amendments 318B and 320B, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, Natural England will work with private providers and landowners to deliver conservation measures. We recognise the vital role these providers will play in making the NRF a success. Restricting Natural England’s ability to deliver conservation measures itself in the way proposed would risk EDPs being unable to deliver value for money for developers where the only available and willing providers are prohibitively expensive.

We are shortly going to be discussing compulsory purchase, so I will say here that we expect Natural England to consider compulsory purchase only where attempts to acquire land by agreement have failed, and that use of Natural England’s compulsory purchase power must be authorised by the Secretary of State. I trust the noble Lord will be content not to press his amendments.

I turn to Amendment 318ZA, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Roborough. I understand the desire for clarity on the opportunities for farmers and others to be involved in the delivery of conservation measures. As mentioned earlier, this model relies on close working with private partners and landowners, and we will publish guidance to support this. However, we are aware that local landowners know their land better than anybody else.

On Amendment 325ZA, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Cromwell, I will be very brief. I reassure the noble Lord that this amendment is unnecessary because, where the land is available to Natural England at market value, it will already be able to pursue the compulsory purchase order as there is a long-standing requirement that compulsory purchase orders can be used only where reasonable efforts to negotiate the purchase of land by agreement have failed.

Finally, regarding the noble Lord’s questions around SFIs, to confirm, we are looking to launch a reformed scheme next year. As I know more details, I will keep the noble Lord in touch with that. With those explanations, I kindly ask noble Lords not to press their amendments.

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[Lord Roborough (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to move my Amendment 292 and speak to Amendments 298 and 324 my name. I will leave my comments on other amendments in the group to the time I have available at the end. However, I see merit in those amendments and hope that the noble Baroness, the Minister, listens to those contributions. I apologise if I inadvertently misspoke when I interrupted the Minister at the end of the previous group.

As I have mentioned in previous debates, we are strongly opposed to Natural England being awarded CPO powers in connection with environmental delivery plans. We question the necessity of the nature restoration levy used to fund EDPs. Just 1% of housing applications consulted on by Natural England are objected to on the basis of environmental concerns, and only 10% of long-term infrastructure projects are challenged by environmental concerns. To suggest that environmental regulations are the reason that development is not occurring on the Government’s desired scale is simply not correct. For Natural England to then be given CPO powers for EDPs is surely rubbing salt into the wound.

The Bill threatens to create a Government monopoly on conservation project delivery and delegated responsibility to Natural England. With that in mind, these amendments attempt to rein in the powers of Natural England and outline their scope so that, while still extensive, they do not step into outright intrusive. Amendment 292 ensures that land that is subject to CPO is returned to the original owner if the intended EDP does not go ahead. My noble friend Lord Sandhurst has already discussed the Crichel Down rules, and this amendment simply makes that part of this legislation. I believe that it is a valuable safeguard to ensure that land is CPO’d only when an EDP is certain.

Amendment 298 is in a similar vein, ensuring that land is also returned if a CPO is revoked—again, a valuable sanction against underperformance by Natural England. Amendment 324 seems a simple and obvious amendment, and a critical protection for every home owner or tenant in this country. Surely Natural England’s CPO powers should be limited such that it cannot CPO a garden, an allotment or indeed a home for an EDP. It may seem unlikely for that even to be a possibility. For that reason, some may think that this is not a serious amendment, but it is. What if someone’s garden or allotment is located in an area subject to an EDP and contains a feature, species or habitat that NE finds attractive? Under the Bill, NE has the power to force entry to assess it and to CPO it if the homeowner does not want to play ball. I urge the Government to accept this simple amendment to allow us all to remain secure in our enjoyment of our property.

I hope that the Minister, will listen carefully to the amendments in this group and be sufficiently stimulated to help to prevent Natural England’s becoming an authoritarian empire.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I have put my name to the amendments tabled by my noble friend Lord Roborough, and I thoroughly support them. I do not wish to add anything to what he has said. I have also put my name to Amendment 323 in this group. I ask your Lordships to look at paragraph 816 of the Explanatory Notes to the Bill, which says:

“Subsection (2) sets out that the power can only be exercised if the land is required for purposes connected with a conservation measure”—


and here are the important words—

“set out in an EDP”.

In other words, Natural England cannot go around compulsorily purchasing land for just any old conservation measure; it has to be one set out in an EDP. My Lords, I presume that this is just a typing error between the green pages of the Bill and the white pages of the Explanatory Notes, and that the Government will therefore be able to accept the amendment.

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Moved by

[The Earl of Caithness]

319: Clause 76, page 109, line 1, after “another” insert “appropriate”
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment seeks to ensure that those paid by Natural England to deliver EDPs have the appropriate expertise for the role.

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[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I beg to move Amendment 319 and will speak to Amendment 320. I would like a little bit of clarification on Clause 76(3), which reads:

“Natural England may pay another person to take conservation measures”.


Surely that ought to be “an appropriate person, with the right qualifications, to take conservation measures”? I would be grateful if the Minister could expand a little on what the Government’s intention is on this. Could she also confirm that subsection (3) refers entirely to EDPs, not to wider powers? It just says:

“Natural England may pay another person to take conservation measures.”


If the noble Baroness can help with that, I would be grateful. I beg to move.

[Lord Cromwell (CB)]

My Lords, I have every sympathy with these amendments, which reflect wider concerns expressed about the capabilities of Natural England and those whom they will deploy, but I do wonder how they will work in practice. In that regard, I have three quick questions for the Minister.

First, will Natural England reveal to levy payers which organisations—and, equally importantly, which qualified individuals—will be given responsibility for using that levy payers’ money to deliver relevant EDPs, so that levy payers can, as stakeholders, have confidence in delivery? Secondly, will such levy payers be able to communicate with these individuals or organisations to learn of and discuss progress? Thirdly, how, and by whom, will these individuals or organisations be held to account for the work that they do?

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[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister. Can she confirm that Clause 76(3) refers only to EDPs?

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I apologise—yes, it does.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful. This has been very helpful. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 319 withdrawn.

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Moved by

[The Earl of Caithness]

321: Clause 77, page 109, line 10, after “unless” insert “21 days”
Member's explanatory statement
This amendment, and another in the name of Lord Cameron of Dillington to clause 77, seeks to ensure that both statutory undertakers and private individual land managers are given equal treatment as regards the powers of entry to be exercised by Natural England.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, we now turn to the very important question of the powers to enter for Britain’s new Rostekhnadzor, the dominant state operator. I find it rather terrifying that a Bill can be put before your Lordships’ House by people who seem to be so out of touch with the real world. In Clause 77(3), a statutory undertaker—most likely in this case to be Natural England—gets 21 days’ notice, whereas in any other case the notice is 24 hours.

I understand that Natural England does not visit its trees very often, if at all. They probably do not need much management once they get going. Perhaps there is a bit of thinning to do or a felling exercise, but the people can go home at a set time to their families. Natural England will get 21 days’ notice for the benefit of that position.

On the other hand, the farmer will be working on their farm outside probably from 6 am to 9 pm. Then they come home, start to do their emails and suddenly find that they have Natural England coming the next day and that there is absolutely nothing they can do about it. Why is there this prejudice against non-statutory undertakers? Why are they given such a short time?

While on this part of the Bill, can I ask the Minister some more questions? Clause 77(2) states that the powers

“may not be exercised in relation to a private dwelling”

and quite right too, but are they exercisable in regard to a garden? That is a concern.

In Clause 77(4), why is notice not required for a second or subsequent visit? Surely that would only be courteous if they are going on to somebody else’s land. If it is a farmer’s land, they might be combining, they might be sowing or they might be getting sheep or cattle in for inoculation. They probably have a very full programme. Somebody appointed by Natural England then suddenly turns up. Would the Minister like it if that happened at home in Cumbria? She is about to catch the train down to your Lordships’ House and Natural England says, “No, you can’t do that, Minister. I need to speak to you now. Let us go and have a look at this”. This could be redrafted to be a lot better for the private individual.

The final point I put to the Minister is the question of notice in writing. When I was a surveyor, a letter in writing was all you could do. Can she tell me whether writing includes emails and social media? It comes through in written form on one’s dreaded machines. Will it be a signed letter like the one she sent us this morning, or can it be done a different way? I have asked lots of questions and it would be very helpful to have some answers. I beg to move.

[Lord Blencathra (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Caithness, and the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington, for their excellent amendments—excellent because I was a co-signatory. These amendments seek to ensure consistency in treatment between statutory undertakers and private individual land managers as regards the powers of entry to be exercised by Natural England.

Frankly, this was an unwelcome addition to the Bill in the other place, giving Natural England even greater powers than already envisaged. I have referred before, or my noble friend has, to Natural England being turned into an authoritarian empire. This is part of what I was referring to. These amendments would require that at least 21 days’ notice be given to both sets of parties by Natural England to enter and survey or investigate any land covered by this part of the Bill. This appears to be the least amount of respect that private landowners should be entitled to. There are major issues around biosecurity—the risk that entrants to land carry on animal disease or predatory species. Given Natural England’s activities across the country, there is a considerable and real risk involved in their entry.

Farms may also have livestock that pose some risk to visitors and need to be kept away from roads and public rights of way, but for the behaviour of which they remain liable. Giving the additional time would allow landowners and Natural England to consider the risks around the entry and sensible precautions that can be taken and warnings given.

We in the Conservative Party have always strongly believed in both equal treatment before the law and the importance of public and private land ownership. These are principles we will always continue to support and are rights that we believe all should have access to. I therefore welcome Amendments 321 and 322, and I am grateful for the opportunity to discuss them in further detail.

I hope that those who drafted this law did not take the view—we have no evidence that they did—that, “The public sector is good and can be trusted but private ownership is bad and cannot be trusted, so let us go in and speak to them straightaway”. As an aside, I say to my noble friend Lord Caithness that if inspectors arrived at the farm of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, and wanted to see it immediately, if it meant she could no longer travel on a ghastly Avanti train with me I can understand why she would happily ask them to come in straightaway.

However, I trust that the Government will take these amendments seriously and I agree with the underlying principles. I await the Government’s response to them with anticipation.

[Baroness Taylor of Stevenage (Lab)]

My Lords, I do not want to disturb the travelling arrangements of noble Lords who live in Cumbria. Amendments 321 and 322, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, and ably moved by the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, would extend the written notice period required before Natural England could demand admission to land. This is currently set at 21 days for statutory undertakers and at least 24 hours in other cases.

Although we agree it is important that adequate notice is provided, the provisions in the Bill are consistent with powers of entry in similar legislation. In aligning with other legislation, we are reducing the risk of confusion for landowners but also recognising the justified difference in treatment regarding statutory undertakers, such as utility companies, whose activities may be vital for public services and so may require additional preparation to protect public safety and to prevent disruption.

However, noble Lords have made some very good points and we will consider this further. It is also worth highlighting the additional safeguards in the Bill, such as ensuring that these powers cannot be used to gain access to private residences—I believe it says “residences” not “dwellings”, so I hope that covers the point about gardens that the noble Earl made. These safeguards further ensure that the powers cannot be used in any other manner other than for carrying out functions under this part of the Bill.

The noble Earl made a very good point about a second or subsequent visit. We do need to consider that further. He also raised the point about notice in writing. He is right to point to the fact that this could be an actual letter—a physical letter—or it could be an email; it could probably not be social media, because that would not be an appropriate way of communicating directly with the person concerned.

With that, and a commitment to discuss this further, I hope that, on behalf of the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, will agree to withdraw the amendment.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I think that is the most positive reply we have had from the Government in 48, 58, 68 hours. I am extremely grateful to the Minister for that. I feel she understands the point that my noble friend Lord Blencathra and I are after: fairness. I was involved as a surveyor in giving notices to people, and there are circumstances when 24 hours is required, but this is not emergency legislation. There should be no need for Natural England, if it is doing its job properly, not to be able to give a decent length of notice and treat people in a civilised manner. I am very grateful to her and look forward to hearing from her shortly. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 321 withdrawn.

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Moved by

[The Earl of Caithness]

326: Clause 86, page 116, line 6, after “another” insert “appropriate”

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, this group relates to concerns about the wide-ranging powers afforded both to the Secretary of State and, most importantly, NE by this Bill. Amendments 326 to 332 seek to require the Secretary of State to have regard to the expertise of the person or bodies, giving greater accountability to the power to designate a person to take on NE’s responsibility. We touched on this a moment ago, and I hope the Minister will give a positive reply.

I particularly want to draw attention to Amendment 343 because this introduces a new clause which provides independent oversight for the administration of Part 3. This is important as the Bill currently invests power in Natural England that means it is both a regulator and a beneficiary, with limited ability for challenge—a point raised in earlier amendments. It is important, too, because we have also talked about the ability of Natural England to perform its current duties, let alone the duties proposed under the Bill.

I was at the launch of the IUCN UK Peatland Programme’s report yesterday and talked to a lot of people, and everybody was concerned about NE’s ability to do its job now and, with the financial pressures on it, whether there will be any hope of it doing the work proposed under this Bill satisfactorily in the future. Increased oversight would support greater adherence to scientific evidence—the subject of a number of amendments to the Bill—in the work that Natural England does.

There is also an absence of clarity in the Bill on the transparency and accountability of NRF distribution. We touched on that, and again that should be independently looked at. Amendment 361, which is in this group, is consequential on Amendment 343. The main point I come back to for the Minister is this independent oversight of the administration of Part 3. I beg to move.

[Lord Blencathra (Con)]

My Lords, several of the amendments put forward by my noble friend Lord Caithness seek to ensure that those to whom the Secretary of State may delegate power are more precisely clarified. I support my noble friend’s efforts to ensure that the legislation is as clearly drafted as possible, so that it may be enacted in the way that both Houses intend. Furthermore, under this Bill, Natural England is being conferred a variety of different powers. It is therefore important that those delegated these powers, whether individuals or bodies, are appropriate. As a result, I am supportive of my noble friend’s amendments, and I am sure the Government will provide them with the necessary attention they deserve.

Amendment 343, also proposed by my noble friend, calls for the establishment of an independent body to oversee Natural England’s powers and duties. I support the principles behind such an amendment as transparency and accountability are essential requirements for effective government. I am therefore supportive of some of the ideas included in the amendment, such as requests for information, transparent reporting and independent monitoring. I hope the Government take this amendment seriously as well.

I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington, for his Amendment 328. It is a probing amendment to ascertain which people the Government envisage taking on the responsibilities of Natural England under this part, and whether they include the farmers and occupiers affected by the EDP. I am sure that the whole Committee will welcome clarification of this question, as we have addressed it in prior groups.

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[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her reply. I agree with her that one does not want to increase costs, but if it means producing a better result for nature and a better outcome, the costs are worthwhile. I know that the Secretary of State has a role in this, but the Secretary of State and Natural England are quite interlinked and I was looking for somebody slightly set back. The OEP will certainly help, but it was highly critical of the original draft of the Bill and it is as a result of its criticism that the Government have sought to try to improve it. I wonder whether, in future, criticism will be effected to try to improve the situation if the OEP thinks that the Bill is not working in the way that it wants. However, I will read what the Minister says and perhaps we will discuss it between now and another stage. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 326 withdrawn.

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[Baroness Young of Old Scone (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the noble Baroness, Lady Grender, on Amendment 345 on heritage trees, to which I put my name. This amendment echoes the key provisions of my heritage tree Private Member’s Bill, which, alas, ran out of road at the last ballot. It remains in my heart, and I shall continue to re-ballot it on every possible occasion.

The noble Baroness, Lady Grender, has ably made the case that heritage trees are really important for history, culture and biodiversity, but they have remarkably little protection and are threatened by development, by deliberate damage—as with the Sycamore Gap tree—by inappropriate management or by sheer neglect and lack of management. The provisions of this amendment would bring protection to these important trees, and there is already the beginnings of a register, as proposed by the amendment, in the Ancient Tree Inventory. The Government have shown signs of interest in this in the past and asked the Tree Council to investigate and report on the issue. The Tree Council submitted its report in spring 2025, and concluded that trees of high social, cultural and environmental value are only indirectly protected, with significant legal gaps, and recommended the development of a “robust and effective system” to ensure that they are safeguarded. Other countries, such as Poland and Italy, have very effective protections.

Examples of socially, culturally and environmentally important trees lost in the last few years include the 300 year-old Hunningham oak near Leamington, which was felled to make way for infrastructure projects in 2020. There was a tree in Hackney called the Happy Man tree, which was the named tree of the year in 2020, but was felled in 2021 to make way for a housing development. There were 60 wonderful ancient lime trees in Wellingborough which were felled in favour of a dual carriageway in 2023. There are lots of examples of historic and culturally important trees, as well as their biodiversity significance, simply failing to be protected. I think that the outpouring of grief and rage that arose from the felling of the Sycamore Gap tree shows just how much the public value these trees, and, indeed, that was reflected in the sentencing.

I asked the Government in a Written Question on 17 July what progress they had made in implementing the recommendations of the Tree Council. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, replied:

“We are carefully considering expert recommendations laid out in the Tree Council and Forest Research report. It will be important”—


note the weasel words here—

“to balance our approach with existing priorities and our statutory obligations. We recognise the value of our most important trees and consider all ancient and veteran trees to be irreplaceable habitats”.

I ask just three questions of the Minister. First, am I right in summarising her response to my Written Question as, “Push off: they are irreplaceable habitats already. We aren’t going to do anything more to proceed with this report and protect them”? Secondly, if that is not the case, when and if will the Government come forward with an action plan following the Tree Council and Forest Research report? Thirdly, if they are not going to respond to the Tree Council report with an action plan, will she accept this amendment? I look forward to her response.

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, I support my noble friend Lady Coffey’s Amendment 341, which refers to ponds. She was quite right to mention floods and drought. I would just like to follow up on that and remind your Lordships what happens with flood and drought. It is the loss of topsoil that is so damaging to farms. If one has ponds, one can collect the topsoil before it does further damage. It does further damage in two ways.

First, if you are near a chalk stream, you get silt going into the chalk stream, which is destroying the environment of the chalk stream. A chalk stream should not have silt in it. I remember speaking in the House last year, I think, about chalk streams and how a sudden thunderstorm had turned a chalk stream from being a crystal gin-clear stream, as it should have been, into a dirty brown river, and the damage that that was doing to the environment of the chalk stream.

Secondly, if the water catchment area goes into a reservoir, a huge amount of topsoil is filling up reservoirs. One might look at a reservoir once it is full of water and think, “Gosh, that’s a really big reservoir”, but one finds that actually a third of it is silted up from years of run-off from the adjoining land. Having ponds that stop that must be a good idea. They can easily be sited in areas of unproductive farmland.

I also notice the interpretation of a pond. My noble friend was absolutely right to mention that this should be permanent or seasonal. With the recent flooding we have had, there has been some terrible damage to farmland, sometimes where a pond would have stopped the damage. It would not be a permanent pond, it would be a seasonal pond, but it would help to reduce the damage to farmland from the run-off of the heavy rain. I hope that the Government will look at that amendment particularly carefully.