Macur Review

David Jones Excerpts

Thursday 17th March 2016 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her response to the statement, and for the spirit and tone in which she made it. I join her in paying tribute to the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) for her long-standing work in trying to achieve justice not only for her constituents who suffered abuse, but for the wider number of care home residents at the time.

When we discussed this issue during a recent session of Wales Office questions, the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley asked me about the redactions. I gave her a commitment that everything possible would be done to ensure that they were kept to a minimum, and that we would be able to explain the reasons for them fully. As I said in my statement, I believe that the letters that we have published along with the report set out those reasons very clearly, but I suggest that Members read Lady Justice Macur’s remarks in the report urging caution in relation to the publication of the names of individuals in the various categories that she describes. I hope that those explanations will provide ample justification for the redactions.

The hon. Lady asked whether we would make a full, unredacted version of the report available to the independent Goddard inquiry. The answer is yes, absolutely. We have also made a full, unredacted copy available to the Crown Prosecution Service, the Director of Public Prosecutions and Operations Pallial, Hydrant and Orarian.

The hon. Lady asked about changes in policy and practice, and about looking to the future. As I said in my statement, Lady Justice Macur has made a number of specific asks of the Government. She has asked for changes to be made, and made recommendations about, in particular, the way in which material is stored and archived. That is one of the weaknesses that she found in establishing her inquiry after 2012, when it was set up. She referred to the “disarray” that many of the files were in. There are important lessons to be learned by Government as a whole—devolved Administrations and the United Kingdom Government—about the way in which sensitive material is archived and protected for the future. Those lessons have been and are being learnt.

As for the wider issue of how we support the survivors and victims of abuse, I think that there has been an enormous cultural change in the last 30 years in Wales and throughout the United Kingdom. That is one of the reasons why more survivors now feel empowered to come forward as part of Operation Pallial, to relive those horrific events, and to make specific allegations, which are being pursued rigorously by the National Crime Agency.

The really positive developments that have taken place since the 1990s, including the establishment of the Children’s Commissioner for Wales, show that as a society we have made a lot of progress. Of course we do not get everything right, and there is much more that we need to learn to do, but we have made a lot of progress over the past 30 years on the way in which we support victims of sexual abuse and address this issue. I do not wish to sound complacent in any way, however, and indeed there is no sense of complacency in Lady Justice Macur’s report that we are publishing today. I hope that that addresses the hon. Lady’s specific question.

The hon. Lady also asked what support was being provided through the independent Goddard inquiry. The inquiry will shortly open an office in Cardiff to reach out to survivors in Wales, and it will work through the mediums of English and Welsh.

[Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con)]

I thank the Secretary of State for his statement. I also pay tribute to the work done by Lady Justice Macur. I know that it has been a monumental undertaking for her. The events she was investigating have cast a dark cloud over north Wales and the Chester area for many years. I am hopeful that the report published today will ease those concerns, but I have to say to my right hon. Friend that I continue to have my own concerns in two respects. The first relates to the absence of documentation. I fully accept what he has said about its storage, which has frankly been little more than a catalogue of disaster, but will he assure the House that not only his Department and Her Majesty’s Government but the Welsh Assembly Government, who had custody of the documents but lost them, have learned the lessons from this?

My second concern relates to the redactions, which I believe will cause the most concern in north Wales. I fully understand the reasons that my right hon. Friend and Lady Justice Macur have given for this, but can he confirm that Justice Lowell Goddard will have the right to pursue in her own inquiry the identities of those whose names have been redacted in today’s report?

[Stephen Crabb]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his questions. He was one of the joint commissioning Secretaries of State for the foundation of the Macur review. He asked two specific questions. The first was about the absence of the relevant documentation. The conclusion that Lady Justice Macur comes to is that she is confident she has seen enough documentation from the Waterhouse tribunal to make some strong conclusions about the overall findings that Waterhouse reached, and that she supports the overall findings of Waterhouse based on her exhaustive trawl through 1 million-plus pages of documentation. Where there are gaps, she has concluded that they are not sufficient to cast into doubt her overall findings.

My right hon. Friend’s second point related to redactions. Again I make the point that a full unredacted copy has gone to the Goddard inquiry. He asked whether Goddard would be able to pursue those names in the unredacted report. Let us bear it in mind that one of the specific recommendations of the Macur review is that the police and the judicial process will be best placed to go after those people against whom specific allegations have been made, and that public or private inquiries are not the best forum in which to do that.

Welsh Affairs

David Jones Excerpts

Thursday 3rd March 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con)]

May I take this opportunity to wish you, Madam Deputy Speaker, a belated happy St David’s day? May I congratulate the hon. Member for Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock) on securing this important debate? Traditionally, it has always been held close to St David’s day. It reminds the entire House that, even in an age of devolution, many of the most important decisions that affect Wales are still taken in these Houses of Parliament.

There have been busy times recently for the Wales Office. We recently had a very full debate on the draft Wales Bill, so I do not propose to rehearse the remarks I made then, save to tell the Minister how pleased I am that he and his colleagues have taken the opportunity to have a pause in the process of developing what will be extremely important legislation. It was generally agreed by hon. Members, and indeed by commentators outside this House, that the draft Bill was really not ready and not fit for purpose.

I am glad that the Minister and his colleagues are giving further consideration to the matter. They are looking at the issue of the list of reservations, but my concern was not so much with the reservations, as he knows, as with the necessity test, which was rather sketchy and ill-defined. I hope he will be able to come back to the House with something that is more fit for purpose.

I wish to speak—briefly, Madam Deputy Speaker—about north Wales, because that is the part of Wales I come from and in which I have lived all my life. Welsh Members frequently think that north Wales is something of an afterthought in Westminster and in Cardiff Bay. In the case of the Welsh Assembly Government, I think few of its members come from north Wales and understand the peculiar circumstances that prevail there. For example, I do not think it is fully understood by members of the Welsh Government that most of north Wales is, in reality, closely tied to north-west England; in fact, it is fair to say that it is very much part of the north-western economic region. That lack of understanding has resulted in certain problems for north Wales, and I am glad to say that north Wales Members of Parliament are beginning to address that through the formation, under the excellent chairmanship of the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian C. Lucas), of the new all-party group for the Mersey-Dee north Wales region.

North Wales needs to maintain its close links to north-west England. Traditionally, it has always looked, culturally and economically, to the great cities of north-west England—specifically Manchester and Liverpool. However, devolution carries with it the danger that those historical and traditional links will be loosened. It is important, now that Government policy is firmly focused on developing the northern powerhouse agenda, that north Wales is not overlooked in that process.

One aspect of the northern powerhouse that north Wales needs to link into is the rail network. I was glad when, a few months ago, the Chancellor announced that he was making funds available to upgrade the Halton curve, which many Members on both sides of the border—not least my hon. Friend the Member for Weaver Vale (Graham Evans)—had been pressing for for some time. However, there is much more that needs to be done.

North Wales MPs hear constantly of the wonderful electrification upgrades in south Wales. Before long, the Great Western line will be upgraded to electrified status all the way through to Swansea.

[Mrs Moon]

Does the right hon. Gentleman share my concern that it appears from announcements by the Department for Transport that the north Wales line to Manchester will be held by an English franchise and that there will be no opportunity for a Welsh franchisee to hold it, because it will not be possible for any franchise that starts or ends in England to be held in Wales?

[Mr Jones]

I do have concerns about the franchise, but now that the hon. Lady has raised the subject, I am bound to say that the citizens of north Wales would not express much satisfaction with the franchise that has been put in place by the Welsh Assembly Government. Arriva Trains provide a very poor service. It is actually much quicker for me, as a north Wales MP, to travel to London by Virgin Trains than to Cardiff by Arriva. Certainly, issues of topography are partly responsible for that, but they do not explain the appallingly low standards of comfort that one experiences on Arriva. I would certainly hope, therefore, that all aspects of the franchise will be looked at, not least the adequacy of the service that is provided at the moment.

The north Wales coastal line needs to be upgraded. We must not miss out on the opportunity to tap into the new service that will be provided as a consequence of the advent of HS2. It looks very much as if a new hub will be provided at Crewe, and it is essential for the travelling public of north Wales that proper, electrified services connect the whole north Wales coast, from Holyhead, all the way to Crewe.

In that connection, valuable work is being done by the North Wales Economic Ambition Board, and the new all-party group can play a role in that. It is hoped that there will shortly be a meeting that will be attended by the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South (James Wharton), who is the northern powerhouse Minister. I was very pleased to see the Minister at a meeting organised by the board in Llandudno a few months ago. It is essential that the Government do not take their eye off the ball, because electrification of the north Wales line is fundamentally important to the economy of north Wales and to its connectivity with the northern powerhouse.

Similarly, consideration should be given to the Borderlands railway line that runs between Wrexham and Bidston, connecting the two enterprise zones at Wirral Waters and Deeside. Electrification of that stretch of line, particularly between Bidston and Shotton, would provide a relatively inexpensive, but highly desirable, piece of infrastructure. It would put Deeside industrial estate within commuting distance of the centre of Liverpool, again improving connectivity.

[Ian C. Lucas]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his kind words earlier. He knows that I strongly share the agenda he is outlining. The Welsh Government have invested £43 million in dualling the Wrexham-Chester line, which is hugely important, and we need to do more. Will he join me in pressing the Welsh Government and the UK Government to put their money where their mouth is? The Welsh Government, to be fair, believe in cross-border transport so much that they have dualled the line in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for City of Chester (Christian Matheson) rather than in Wrexham, and we want it to run right through to Wrexham.

[Mr Jones]

Yes, that is the burden of my speech. As the north-eastern part of Wales is so dynamic and so important to the economy of north Wales, as well as that of the country of a whole, and because it straddles a border—a line on the map that was not there in reality until fairly recently—we need to ensure that differing policies on either side of the border do not have any unforeseen effects. Yes, of course it is essential that both the Westminster Government and the Welsh Government should be working extremely closely together in this regard.

Before I sit down, Madam Deputy Speaker—I am very much alert to your strictures on time—I will mention the A55 coast road, or expressway, which is the most important route in the whole of north Wales, linking the areas around the border to Holyhead. The road is now quite old and in desperate need of upgrading. A few years ago, arrangements were made whereby borrowing powers were given to the Welsh Government—in fact, they were given the right to access the old borrowing powers of the Welsh Development Agency—in order to upgrade road infrastructure. That was stated to be specifically for the M4 and the A55. The Welsh Government are taking steps to upgrade the M4 around the Newport area, and that is all well and good, but looking at this from a north Wales point of view, it is rather galling that they do not appear to be accessing these borrowing powers to upgrade the A55. I ask my hon. Friend the Minister to give his colleagues in the Welsh Assembly Government the message that they should realise that the A55 is just as important to the people of north Wales as the M4 is to the people of south Wales.

There is a strong perception among us north Walians that we always get the short straw. I very much hope that the Welsh Government are listening to the contributions made to this debate and will understand that there is life north of Merthyr Tydfil and that the people of north Wales need their own specific economic interests to be reflected—and that means more connectivity and more integration with the great north-west economy.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

I would like briefly to refer to three issues: first, what has happened to the draft Wales Bill; secondly, the importance of the European Union to Wales; and, thirdly, the need for the third runway at Heathrow airport from a Welsh perspective.

I have to ask where the Secretary of State for Wales is this afternoon. Surely this is an important debate and his place really ought to have been in this Chamber listening to what Members have to say and responding to their remarks. It is not asking too much that he show some courteousness and political common sense by coming here. I very much hope that he will learn the lesson from his embarrassment this afternoon. The Under-Secretary will clearly take that message back to him.

Quite a significant decision has been taken by the Secretary of State over the past week—to withdraw the draft Wales Bill—but I am concerned that there has been no oral statement or even a written statement. There has been no communication with the House of Commons. We learned about the decision from the press. That is a gross discourtesy and an undermining of the parliamentary system that we are all committed to.

That brings me to my main issue. I ask the House this question: what do the following individuals and organisations have in common? They are the Wales Governance Centre, the leaders of three political parties in Wales, the Learned Society of Wales, Sir Paul Silk, Sir Emyr Jones Parry, the head of the Wales office of the Law Society, and the professor of governance and constitution at University College, London—and the list could go on. The answer is that they all said that the draft Wales Bill was not fit for purpose. There was relative unanimity on that among those in Wales who follow these issues closely—the objective experts and academics, and the people who are at the sharp end of implementing legislation. I am sure the Under-Secretary will say, “Well, yes, that is why we withdrew the Bill—we listened”, but would it not have been better if he had listened at the start?

Concern was expressed about the draft Bill right from the very beginning, when it was first published. I have a copy here, and quite a heavy tome it is. The Secretary of State said in the foreword:

“This draft Bill sets out in detail how the Government plans to deliver the St David’s Day commitments to create a stronger, clearer and fairer devolution settlement for Wales that will stand the test of time.”

It stood the test of time for four months, and then he recognised what everybody else was saying—that it was not fit for purpose and he should go back to the drawing board and start all over again.

[Mr David Jones]

I have listened to the hon. Gentleman’s criticisms, but does he not agree that it is far better to get the legislation right than to bring through hasty legislation that does not stand the test of time? In that regard, did he read the recent report by the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee that bemoaned the fact that the Blair Government of 1997 hastened through legislation that has now resulted in the West Lothian question not being addressed?

[Wayne David]

I agree up to a point. Pre-legislative scrutiny is good—it makes for better legislation—but it would have been far better if the Wales Office had recognised that meaningful constitutional change can be achieved only on the basis of a high degree of political consensus. It cannot be achieved by a Government—any Government—trying to push through legislation that does not command broad support and is seen by some people as partisan and not properly thought through. That was one of the fundamental problems with the draft Bill. Many people thought it was purely impractical and would therefore lead to bad governance. That lesson ought to be learned.

--- Later in debate ---

[Craig Williams]

The hon. Gentleman is trying to ruin the consensus within my party as well as the debate. I will try my best to skirt around that issue. Although I disagree with Andrew R. T. Davies, a good friend and colleague, we will work those things out when he is First Minister. I therefore would not worry about that.

Let me move on quickly to the redevelopment and challenges that I envisage for the south Wales and Cardiff economy. The hon. Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) is not in his place, but I am sure that he will read Hansard later. The barefaced cheek of saying that we are waiting for some sort of financial package from the UK Government for the M4 relief road is unbelievable. That borrowing power—the old Welsh Development Agency powers—has been available to the Welsh Government for a considerable time and they have not done much to progress that.

[Mr David Jones]

Does my hon. Friend accept that although the Welsh Government may not have done much in south Wales, they have done nothing at all in north Wales?

[Craig Williams]

I wholeheartedly accept that, and I feel for the A55 as much as I do for the M4. However, the M4 relief road is key for our links to Heathrow, as is the spur for Network Rail. The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) referred to Andrew R. T. Davies—the next First Minister—and he has committed to having, within 12 months, a spade-ready M4 relief road. I massively welcome that and look forward to its coming to fruition.

I am conscious of the time, but I want to touch on the redevelopment of the M4 and the Eastern Bay link road. It is a shame and a travesty that Wales’s capital city does not have a circular road around it, and any visitor to the National Assembly for Wales who comes out of the Butetown tunnels then sees the national disgrace of a road that ends—it is a road to nowhere and it needs finishing. I know that phase 1 is now on the cards, but it is ridiculous to do one phase of a circular road, but to leave out a small section up to what would be an excellent gateway to the new M4 relief road. I have also touched on the metro and the tolls, on which there is cross-party consensus.

Let me briefly mention the Commonwealth games, and a bid that we must champion as a nation. Cardiff is at the core of that, but the games have the opportunity to be a real Welsh national Commonwealth games. When we consider what happened in Glasgow and Scotland, and at the Olympics in London, the kind of economic redevelopment and opportunities that a Commonwealth games presents for Wales cannot be missed. I hope that all parties in the upcoming Assembly election will have in their manifestos a clear commitment to the Commonwealth games. Sports, businesses and Welsh civic society are behind that bid, and we need political vision and leadership from Cardiff Bay. I hope that that will be the only bid within the United Kingdom, and that we can have full support from the UK Government.

I will now touch on sporting success. I asked permission from my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire to mention one hero, but I will actually mention three. He mentioned Barry Williams. I spent many a Saturday morning more than two decades ago selling match programmes with him, and he is a true champion. We finally have something in common again, because he is up for election in the Peter’s Pie competition for a Welsh rugby hero. Outside of Cardiff North, Welshpool rugby club is the finest rugby club in Wales, and I support his bid wholeheartedly. He is a true champion of Welsh rugby and a great friend.

Lewis Wilkins is a young scientist from my constituency, and he is coming to the House of Commons on Monday as part of the SET for BRITAIN initiative to encourage, support and promote Britain’s early-stage and early-career research scientists. It is a great scheme to get young people into science and research and development so early on. He will be in Portcullis House—I will not give the time and date, but if anyone wants to join me in going to see Lewis Wilkins, they will meet a true champion of science and a true advocate for Cardiff and Cardiff University.

Finally, I want to mention Mrs Beth Baldwin, whose son tragically died of undetected type-1 diabetes. This week she presented a petition to the Assembly on raising awareness of diabetes and on having a simple prick test—perhaps as part of schools’ injection processes—to discover whether children are diabetic. She received the Pride of Britain award, and she is an incredibly brave woman from an incredibly supportive and great Cardiff family that have turned a tragedy into a great campaign. She is a true Welsh hero. I am delighted that she will be coming to No. 10 later this month to present another petition about having a gold standard or minimum for GPs and other health care professionals to routinely test for diabetes.

I hope that I have captured the economic development, excitement and potential of Cardiff and Wales. We should not talk it down too much. We have great opportunities, but a Commonwealth games bid could draw much of that redevelopment together, and I very much want that to happen.

Draft Wales Bill

David Jones Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd February 2016 General Committees

[The Chair]

I advise hon. Members that about nine hon. Members are seeking to catch my eye before the end of the debate. I intend to call the winding-up speeches from 3.30 pm. The right hon. Member for Clwyd West was on his feet.

[Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con)]

Welcome to the Chair, Mr Hanson.

Before we adjourned, I was expressing both support for what the Wales Office is seeking to do via the Bill and concern about whether the Bill is the best vehicle for achieving that. The difficulty we have in this country is that, as other hon. Members have said, we have experienced piecemeal devolution over many years, going back to the original defective settlement imposed in 1999. We have asymmetric devolution, which that is not necessarily a bad thing. One of the strengths of this country is the inherent flexibility of its institutions, so I do not think that the asymmetry is the problem. I think that having had years of piecemeal devolution, we are continuing the process and keep tinkering with the devolution settlement. We are trying to fix the big end when what we need is a completely new engine.

I commend to members of the Grand Committee the work being carried out by the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee, of which I am a member, as are the hon. Members for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney and for Newport West. That Committee is carrying out an extensive inquiry into the British constitution, and evidence we have heard in recent weeks follows a pattern, which is that progress of further devolution is proceeding too quickly, with too little thought and, frankly, not in a holistic manner.

For example, we visited the Welsh Assembly some weeks ago and were told by Dame Rosemary Butler, the Presiding Officer, that changes to the devolution settlement are being rushed. Only yesterday we heard evidence from Lords Forsyth and Lang, former Scottish Secretaries, who expressed the same concern; and that concern was echoed in the report by the Wales Governance Centre published yesterday. I know there is anxiety and keenness within the Government that the Bill should proceed as quickly as possible, but I ask my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to give careful consideration to the evidence that is emerging, not only from the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee, but from external sources, that if we carry on at this pace of reform, we are going to make an even bigger mess.

Suggestions have been made, for example by the First Minister, that there should be a constitutional convention. That suggestion has been echoed to a certain extent by Lord Norton of Louth, who has called for a constitutional convocation. There have also been suggestions that a high commission on the constitution should be established. There is merit in giving consideration to all those suggestions.

What we are all seeking is a constitutional settlement that ultimately will settle the question of devolution. I remember when I arrived in this House in 2005 being told by Lord Hain, who was then Secretary of State, that the Bill that became the Government of Wales Act 2006 would settle the issue of devolution for Wales for a generation, and here we are talking about it again. There has to be a terminus to this process and it has to be a terminus that is fair and reflects all the interests of all the people of this country. I do not believe that the bolt-on approach represented by the Bill is the right approach.

I entreat my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State not to proceed at such great speed. I know that, from the point of view of the press, there is tremendous attraction in a Wales Bill being introduced to the House on 1 March—the St David’s day Bill. We need something much more substantial than that. While fully applauding my right hon. Friend’s desire to put right the mess that we inherited from previous Parliaments, I ask him to think about pausing the process. I ask him to give the whole process more time, to listen to the interested parties who are now increasingly making their voices heard, and to consider with his colleagues in Government putting in place a process that gives the people of this country the opportunity to have a devolution settlement that endures, not one that—God forbid—we have to revisit in five years’ time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Hon. Members]

Hooray!

[Mr David Jones]

I do not know if the hon. Gentleman is suggesting that all those issues should be devolved to Wales. I notice he mentioned gender recognition. Would that mean that someone could be a man in England and a woman in Wales?

[Mr Mark Williams]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman, if only because he has given me a chance to catch my breath. Would seeing those powers controlled in Wales mean the unravelling of our constitution and the end of the Union? Should we have not started from the principle that what is devolved to Scotland and Northern Ireland should be devolved to Wales? Better still, if one believes in subsidiarity, should we have not started with the principle that all powers are devolved, and it is for the Secretary of State and Westminster to argue the case for reserving them to Westminster?

However, we are where we are and we have this Bill. The hon. Member for Wrexham, who is not in his place, talked about the need for a constitutional convention and the right hon. Member for Clwyd West said he was open to the case for that. He described the Bill as a “bolt-on”. That and the devolutionary drift in other parts of the UK points to the need to look at such matters in the round. My party has always believed in a federal Britain, with home rule for Wales, and we need a constitutional convention to look into that.

Some have asserted that there should be a pause and, on balance, I agree. Too many concerns have been expressed, as the Select Committee will reveal at some point in the future. The question is: how much of a pause should there be? If a pause means that we lose a legislative slot for the Wales Bill to carry forward devolution, I would be immensely concerned. However, the issues on which the Secretary of State has openly reflected, such as looking again at the necessity test, or whatever form of words we use for that, ministerial consents and the scale of the list of reservations, are a big body of work that needs to be done urgently.

I would not say that the Secretary of State was disdainful when I talked about the need for robust dialogue with Assembly colleagues, but that dialogue needs to happen. I was privy to discussions between Westminster MPs representing the four parties and our Assembly colleagues and given the level of concern expressed since the draft Bill was published, that needs addressing. There are rumours of delays to the suspected date of Second Reading. I do not expect to get a date at the end of the Committee, but we need to be mindful of that and of the work that needs to be done.

The Secretary of State said that he wants the matters to be settled. The issue of a distinct jurisdiction has gained much traction in discussions, with various questions fired around the Committee today asking people to define what that means. I am not a lawyer—perhaps that is obvious—so I cannot give that definition.

--- Later in debate ---

[Byron Davies]

I understand the Secretary of State’s point. We have to realise that the scandal, as he calls it, of the regeneration investment fund for Wales was examined by the Wales Audit Office, which produced a damning report, and by the Welsh Assembly’s Public Accounts Committee, whose damning report was published only last week. I hope that I can have some faith in his suggestion that if we give the Welsh Government this responsibility, they will grow into a more responsible—

[Mr David Jones]

Does my hon. Friend agree that while it is all well and good to give the Assembly Government the responsibility for accounting for the money that they spend, tax-varying powers should not be conferred without the acquiescence of the Welsh people, as was the case with the Scottish people in 1997, and that therefore a referendum should be held on the issue?

[Byron Davies]

It is well known that I think that the people of Wales should have had a referendum on that issue, and it is in the public domain that I have made that known to the Government.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful for that point, which I accept in the spirit that the hon. Gentleman intended. I intended partly to give a light-hearted example of a constitutional convention, and partly to probe the motives of some who call for such a convention to ascertain whether they really want a Bill.

[Mr David Jones]

I fully appreciate my hon. Friend’s point. We do not want a talking shop that goes on for years. I also understand his possible suspicion of Members of other parties, such as the First Minister of Wales. However, given that Lord Norton of Louth, who is a well-respected Conservative peer, is calling for a constitutional convocation, should not the Wales Office at least consider that?

[Alun Cairns]

Certainly, the Wales Office and the Government will listen to all the points that are expressed, but I was merely highlighting the one example that we have in modern history of a constitutional convention and how complicated that became to give a context for the difficulty of trying to resolve some of those issues.

I remind people who have been extremely critical of the draft Bill, the St David’s day agreement and the process that the Secretary of State undertook, of the Richard Commission and the amount of time that that spent, only to be rejected by the Government of the day. That left us with a complex situation and the LCO mechanism. How many of us remember how complicated that was, whether we were in the Assembly or in Westminster? It is therefore a bit rich for some people to suggest that there is a simple and straightforward way of resolving the issues. We are keen to listen to and develop the debate, and the draft Bill was published in that spirit.

To underline the points that were made at the outset, there is a lot of rhetoric and misunderstanding. Some comments that have been made in Committee are simply inaccurate. I will pick up on some of them shortly, including those made by the hon. Member for Clwyd South. The draft Bill is ambitious and extends significant amounts of new powers to the Assembly. Matters that have been raised—be it the necessity test or the consents—are not about limiting Assembly powers. There is no Machiavellian plot to clip the Assembly’s wings. It is about giving the Assembly the powers, with two Governments that have responsibility for matters that relate to Wales: the legitimate Welsh Government, who will have legitimate powers over devolved matters, and the UK Government. Who knows? In the long-term future, there may be a Labour Administration, although I do not expect that to happen for at least another two or three general elections. However, in future, Opposition Members in this Committee Room, who may be Ministers in such an Administration, could be grateful for the powers that the Bill will grant to marry the interface between Wales and the UK Government.

Not unexpectedly, several Members raised the necessity test, and I will not have time to go round all those who mentioned it. Let me clear up the misunderstanding that exists. The necessity test applies only when the Assembly seeks to legislate in relation to England, in relation to reserved matters and in relation to underlying principles of criminal and private law. It has nothing to do with the Welsh Government legislating in Wales on a devolved matter. The necessity test is about when something touches reserved matters and matters that could be deemed to be the responsibility of the UK Government.

I will give a practical, straightforward example relating to the education of a child with special educational needs. If that child, from Wales, is being educated in a school in England, Estyn would naturally have the responsibility for inspecting the provision for that child in the school in England. It would not have the authority to close the school in England, because that would be a matter for the UK Government, but it would have the power to go to that school in England. The necessity test is about making the Welsh legislation effective when it crosses the English border. That is one practical example: there are a whole host of higher education institutions that have bases in England. The necessity test is about making the Welsh legislation effective as it applies to England. That is the scope and the scale of the necessity test. It is about enforcing legislation made by the Assembly.

Draft Wales Bill (Morning sitting)

David Jones Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd February 2016 General Committees

[Nia Griffith]

The issue is, more than anything, the confusion. Everybody wants a clear settlement that will not cause problems. I am not the only one saying this. David Melding, the Conservative Assembly Member for South Wales Central, warns:

“Judicial review could become, if not the norm, then far from the exception. Welsh legislation would be drafted in an atmosphere of profound uncertainty, which itself would curtail its scope and ambition.”

Therefore, the Secretary of State has comprehensively failed his first test—clarity.

If the Secretary of State had really wanted to make the devolution settlement clearer, he could easily have reduced the number of tests that the Assembly has to satisfy before it can legislate. Those are the tests that decide whether a Bill is within the Assembly’s competence. This Bill increases them from nine to 13. Of course, the most controversial, understandably, are the so-called necessity tests. Quite why those tests were dreamt up is not clear. What is clear is that they will make it significantly harder for the Assembly to legislate. That is not just my view, but that of Paul Davies, the Tory Assembly Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire—a colleague from the same constituency as the Secretary of State. He said that

“it’s clear from the evidence...that introducing these tests would restrict the Assembly’s competence.”

As the Law Society said in its evidence to the Welsh Affairs Committee, “necessity” is not a term that is well understood by lawyers. It does not have an established meaning. In fact, the Assembly’s Director of Legal Services has pointed out that there are at least three completely different ways in which the term “necessity” can be understood. Quite frankly, it could mean anything, and the only way to establish what it means will be through reference to the Supreme Court, which is profoundly undemocratic.

[Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con)]

I have considerable sympathy with what the hon. Lady is saying. The word “necessity” is not a term of science nor is it even a term of art. Nevertheless, does she not agree that it is entirely right that the Assembly should not legislate in areas that are beyond its defined competence, so a term has to be arrived at that achieves that?

[Nia Griffith]

Absolutely. There have to be certain consents and criteria, but our difficulty with the Bill is that it does not provide the clarity that we all want in legislation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nia Griffith]

There has to be some sort of framework to define exactly where the Welsh Government can legislate. What we do not want is a situation where we continually dispute that, as that would not help.

[Mr David Jones]

I am grateful for the direction of travel that the hon. Lady is taking. Will she perhaps suggest a term that could be used to achieve the clarity that she desires?

[Nia Griffith]

It is for the Secretary of State to produce a Bill with some form of words that explains exactly how and when the Assembly can legislate. We want to see that in the Bill in a way that will actually work. At the moment, we have turned the clock back, and it looks as if we are asking for many different types of consent. We do not have clarity, but that is what we need. We have a situation where even Bills that have been passed will be contested.

[Mr David Jones]

rose—

[Nia Griffith]

I will not give way any more. It is for the Secretary of State to introduce better legislation. It is simply undemocratic to go continually to the Supreme Court, because it is not for judges to decide this, that or the other about what can be subject to legislation. We want legislation that makes the position clear, rather than having to go to court time after time.

The real problem is the sense that we are going back pre-2006, and rolling back things that have been introduced by the Assembly in the past few years. The Welsh Government have listed no fewer than 14 Acts in this Assembly’s term that would require additional permission from Whitehall if the Bill were in force. The Secretary of State has said that this is all about respect, but where is the respect in making it harder for the democratically elected Assembly to pass laws? The people of Wales did not vote in 1997 and 2011 for a Welsh Assembly hamstrung by Whitehall, able to legislate but only when UK Ministers allowed it. That completely undermines the autonomy of the Assembly and is a major step backwards. As Conservative Assembly Member David Melding has highlighted, that ends with the constitutionally unacceptable position of UK Ministers, who are not accountable to Assembly Members, telling the Assembly what it can and cannot do.

Of course, ministerial consent exists under the current system, but if the Secretary of State really wants to clarify and simplify the settlement, he would clear up the consent process. As the Silk Commission recommended, there should be general transfer of ministerial functions in devolved areas from Whitehall to Cardiff Bay, just as happened in the Scotland Act. The Secretary of State has given no good reason why Wales should be treated any worse than Scotland.

The Bill would make the system significantly more complicated, with the effect of rolling back the Assembly’s powers. In the words of the Assembly’s Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee:

“It is clear to us that the cumulative effect of the approach being adopted…is to reduce the Assembly’s legislative competence.”

Yet again the Bill would fail to deliver a fair and lasting settlement. Instead, it would take powers away from Wales and make it harder for the Assembly to do its job.

Let us turn to the reservations themselves. A primary purpose of the Bill is to introduce a reserved powers model, in order to bring greater clarity to the devolution settlement. The Silk Commission report says:

“In a reserved powers model, the settlement would set out clearly the limits of devolved competence. We would expect law-makers to legislate with greater confidence…rather than being constrained by uncertainty”.

Clarity is about the last thing that comes to mind when reading the 34 pages of reservations in the Bill, covering 267 separate powers, on everything from Antarctica to zebra crossings. Everyone agrees that the list is far too long. Indeed, Angela Burns, the Conservative Assembly Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire, has described the list as unworkable. She said:

“The reservations, as they stand, will hinder the development of policy, will impact on the coherence and unity of legislation and will, in my view, muddy the waters between legislatures.”

Even the Secretary of State has said:

“When I read through the list of reservations I can see for myself that there are things where I think, you know, ‘For goodness’ sake, why is that being held back as reserved?’”

It is his Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nia Griffith]

The problem is that we had the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire telling us that he may not even vote for the Bill; he describes it as an abysmal failure. We had the hon. Members for Vale of Clwyd, for Brecon and Radnorshire, for Monmouth, and for Gower—I see he has left his place—and, indeed, the right hon. Member for Clwyd West, all saying publicly that the income tax devolution that will be included in the final Bill is disrespectful to the Welsh people. So there is utter chaos on the Conservative Benches about the Bill. It is a remarkable situation.

[Mr David Jones]

I need to clarify the hon. Lady’s point. I did not say that I would oppose the devolution of taxation powers. What I said was that to impose such powers without a referendum of the Welsh people was, I felt, disrespectful to the people of Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[Liz Saville Roberts]

Perhaps that is why the Presiding Officer of the Assembly has asked for a consolidation of previous Welsh legislation, because we are effectively building on the previous conferred models and trying to build a reserved model out of that. That is part of the problem we face. I will return to distinct legislation anon.

We are facing a draft Bill that claws back the powers for which the people of Wales voted overwhelmingly in favour in 2011; a draft Bill that, had it been implemented in that year would have required 20% of the current Assembly’s Acts to seek the consent of UK Government Ministers. We are facing a draft Bill that would allow Welsh legislation to be enacted only if it passes no fewer than 10, or perhaps a debatable number of tests on each provision within the Bill in question—certainly a wide range, a battery, of tests. Incidentally, distinguished legal experts have described the tests as

“a failure of comparative legal method”

and claimed that they

“jar with basic constitutional principle”.

Members of the Welsh Affairs Committee have been warned that this could lead to situations whereby legislators would choose to avoid amending the law—a chilling effect—despite it being the better option, for fear of opening a Pandora’s box of debate about what constitutes “necessary”.

Perhaps the most concerning legal aspect of the draft Bill is the reservation of criminal law and private law. These are not policy reservations, they are mechanisms—means—necessary for the enforcement of law. They are what animates the law. They will put policies into effect. They were not discussed as part of the St David’s day process, and, as Professor Thomas Glyn Watkin told the Welsh Affairs Committee, the introduction of these restrictions

“appears to deliberately ignore the express decision of the people of Wales regarding their Assembly’s legislative powers”.

Placing restrictions on the Assembly’s ability to make such modifications to the law not only drastically rows back on the 2011 referendum, but also restricts directly elected Welsh Governments from implementing their policies. It is no wonder that so many people have described the Bill as unworkable.

In fairness, it is proposed that the Assembly should be able to make modifications where such modification is:

“(a) necessary for a devolved purpose or is ancillary…to a provision which has a devolved purpose, and (b) has no greater effect on the general application of the private law than is necessary to give effect to that purpose.”

Simple. I hope Members will have detected that I did not understand what I have just said, although I may have said it with confidence. It asks the question of who is to decide whether a modification to the law is necessary for a devolved purpose or whether a modification has no greater effect than is necessary to give effect to a provision’s purpose. This is not a matter of semantics and niceties; it is a lawyers’ playground.

[Mr David Jones]

I agree with the hon. Lady. The word “necessary” is unworkable. Does she have an alternative formulation that would define the boundaries between what is and what is not devolved?

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I will come to that anon, rather than trying to answer briefly and then repeating myself. As I said, this is a lawyers’ playground and, exactly as the Secretary of State said earlier, means that we will end up in the Supreme Court, which is what we do not want.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian C. Lucas]

I will make a little progress, because I am conscious that others want to speak.

I want to turn to the Chairman of the Welsh Affairs Committee’s comments. The EVEL proposals, appalling as they are, actually contain a kernel of something that could take constitutional considerations further. In general, I welcome the introduction of geographical Committees in the UK Parliament, because the public do not want more politicians. At the heart of Tony Blair’s defeat on his proposals for a north-east regional assembly was the powerful image of such an institution being a white elephant. Basically, for the general public it was unacceptable to have yet more politicians—the very problem that the hon. Member for Monmouth mentioned earlier. The creation of an English Grand Committee made up of MPs who are already elected creates a body capable of scrutiny with no additional costly elected members. It is a possible model for the scrutiny of legislation and budgets not only in England but throughout the UK.

As an MP from Wales, I am conscious of the differentiation of roles created by the devolution settlement across the UK. Some political roles are devolved to the Welsh Government, the most prominent of which is health, yet my constituents have a limited appreciation of the level of government that deals with their issues. Frankly, they do not care. They think that if they have a problem that is of sufficient importance for them to go to their MP about it, he should deal with it. That view extends not only to matters devolved to the Welsh Government. Barely a weekly surgery goes by without an issue being brought to me that is the responsibility of the local council. I deal with such issues, and I know that my parliamentary colleagues in England do exactly the same, yet the parliamentary process makes little concession to either the devolution settlement or the developed role of MPs as constituency advocates.

Politicians at different levels of governance operate as if they were on different floors of an office block that governs: local government on the ground floor; devolved jurisdictions, Members of the Scottish Parliament, Assembly Members or Members of the Legislative Assembly on the second floor; Members of Parliament on the third floor; and Members of the European Parliament on the floor above them. The time is right, in appropriate cases, to put those representatives on the same floor to scrutinise together in the interests of our constituents. The EVEL proposals, which suggest the creation of a separate parliamentary Committee to deal with appropriate legislation on a geographical basis, give an indication of how to achieve that.

For many years, as an MP from Wales I have advocated MPs and AMs working together on joint Committees for the benefit of our constituents. That should be considered further in the draft Bill. The health issues I have set out are examples of issues that need joint work to reflect the reality of NHS provision to my constituents. There has been great resistance to this proposal. Some see it as undermining the principle of devolution, but devolution is not separatism. It is incumbent on those of us who want devolution to work to work together, not separately, to make it work in practice. We must leave separatism to the nationalists.

Parliament needs to recognise in its procedures the role of devolved institutions by incorporating them into the scrutiny process. It must also recognise that, in England, that will mean MPs working in joint Committees with local government. Such Committees must, of necessity, be constituted on a regional basis. Just as the Conservatives propose creating a Committee of MPs in England in their EVEL proposals, Labour should go one step further and create Committees of MPs on a regional basis within England to scrutinise matters relating to that region. In England, that will mean extending Committee membership to local government leaders. In Wales and Scotland, it will mean Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly Committees admitting MPs, and parliamentary Committees admitting MSPs and AMs, as well as, where appropriate, local government leaders.

In appropriate cases, such Committees could extend across national boundaries, so that they could deal with issues that transcend boundaries, reflecting the reality of the situation on the ground for, for example, constituents in the part of the cross-border region of England and Wales that I represent. Such Committees would more accurately reflect the present governance of the UK. Governance is a process that integrates different levels of government, and such Committees would do the same.

[Mr David Jones]

I have a great deal of sympathy with what the hon. Gentleman is suggesting. Does he agree that the issue is not simply one for parliamentarians but for Government Ministers—the Executive—as well? There should be far more discussion of the alignment of policies between Governments.

[Ian C. Lucas]

I agree with that entirely. I do not pretend that what I have said this morning is a solution, but it is a starting point for a debate. The right hon. Gentleman knows that there is an appetite for cross-border working in Parliament, as shown by the recent establishment of the all-party parliamentary group for the Mersey-Dee and north Wales region.

The concept of regional representation in Government and in Parliament is neither novel nor past. As Prime Minister, Gordon Brown introduced regional Ministers. They were abolished by the coalition Government in 2010, but they were very effective. I dealt with them when I was a Minister in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. The Conservative Government have now created a Minister for the northern powerhouse. We should have a Committee to hold such people to account. Bit by bit, the Government are adopting the model through their proposals for regional devolution. To develop regional institutions within Government, we need the parliamentary equivalents. To work with other organisations, we need local government and devolved institutions to take matters forward. The move should be against the separatism that the Government have promulgated through EVEL. We should establish a Committee of elected representatives—MPs, AMs and councillors—who can hold the institutions of Government to account and more properly reflect the situation on the ground.

The tragedy of far too much of the constitutional reform since 1999 is that it has tinkered in a piecemeal way with our constitution, and the draft Bill is another example. Unfortunately, the Government are unlikely any time soon to consider an overall constitutional convention, which is what we need. Those of us who dearly love the United Kingdom need to agree to create such a convention to regularise the rules that we have. Until that happens, the proposal for a regional Committee, which can, if necessary, transcend boundaries, is a good way of taking forward a more accountable and effective governance structure that would address the needs of the people whom we represent.

[Mr David Jones]

It is a huge pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Owen. May I commence by congratulating the hon. Member for Llanelli on calling for this Welsh Grand Committee today? I have often felt that this Committee contributes more than is frequently recognised to the political life of Wales, and I am glad that we are sitting here again. I also congratulate the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd on an excellent contribution to the debate.

This forum is important for Welsh MPs. I am pleased that we have the opportunity today to discuss the draft Wales Bill, which is the latest in an increasingly long line of measures put forward by successive Secretaries of State to address devolution in Wales. Our principal problem is that the devolution settlement as originally implemented was grossly defective. It was put in place in a hurry by the Blair Administration, and successive Governments since have had to make attempts to repair the damage done to the constitution of the United Kingdom as a consequence.

Like the Secretary of State, I started my journey as an avowed devo-sceptic. I have since become, as has Lord Murphy of Torfaen, a devo-realist, because it is clear that devolution will be a feature of the constitution of this country, at least for the foreseeable future. I congratulate the Secretary of State on attempting to put right what is in my view a defective settlement. However, I have huge concerns about this draft Bill, which I shall touch on later. Many have called for a move from a conferred powers model of devolution to a reserved powers model. The view that I have always taken, as has my right hon. Friend, is that simply to do that is not a panacea. We can have the same issues, but in mirror image, so to speak.

The proposed reserved powers model addresses some issues of concern, most importantly those of the silent subjects, which proved so problematic in the Agricultural Wages Board case. However, it is perfectly clear from today’s contributions in this Chamber and externally from experienced commentators that what is now proposed does not go far enough.

I do not want to deal with the specific provisions of the Bill at great length. However, I applaud my right hon. Friend for the reservation of policing from the devolution settlement. Policing is one of the three great public services. From a pragmatic point of view, it is perfectly clear that the Assembly has not so far proved successful in their stewardship of either health or education. I believe to confer competence for policing would be a step too far.

[Jonathan Edwards]

Is it the right hon. Gentleman’s position that policing should be re-reserved in the case of Scotland and Northern Ireland?

[Mr Jones]

I believe that is correct in the case of Wales. England and Wales, as we have heard at length today, is a conjoined jurisdiction. It makes far more sense for such an important public service as policing to be reserved. Furthermore, from a pragmatic point of view, let me say quite bluntly that I do not believe the Welsh Government would be able to handle policing. I think it would be beyond them.

I also have concerns about the proposed devolution of competence for harbours. Harbours are an important part of our economy. Again, I have concerns about the capacity of the Assembly to deal with them. On what may appear to be a minor matter, I think that the proposal to devolve competence for speed limits is, quite frankly, potty.

The problem with the draft Bill is not what is devolved and what is reserved. Those are matters for discussion, negotiation and rethought. The principal problems lie in schedule 2. This has been the subject of much discussion this morning. The core of the problem lies in the use of the word “necessary”. To decide the limits of devolution by an interpretation of the word “necessary” is a positive invitation for many more references to the Supreme Court.

It should be possible to arrive at a terminology. I had hoped that, when I intervened on the Shadow Secretary of State, she might have given thought to this matter and have a formulation herself, but it would appear not. Nevertheless, I suggest to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State that considerable further thought needs to be given to the use of the word “necessary”. Otherwise, we will see many more cases referred to the Supreme Court, which is the last thing that anyone in this Chamber wants.

On the expression “reserved authority”, I see the need to refer to it. Increasingly, legislation emanating from the Assembly has imposed greater and greater burdens on non-devolved authorities and Ministries of State. It is quite right that those burdens should not be imposed and I believe, therefore, that they should be constrained. The expression “leeway and lock” has been used by the Wales governance centre in its recent paper. “Leeway and lock” sounds like the opening words of the 1951 test match. Nevertheless, I believe that it is important to define the area of competence wherein the Assembly operates and it is absolutely right that it should not be passing legislation that has unforeseen consequences on the reserved authorities referred to in the draft Bill.

It is right that, before any such burdens are imposed, the consent of the relevant Minister should be sought. It is, after all, the flipside of the provision that provides that where the Assembly’s competence is being invaded, the legislative consent motion should be sought. This can also be addressed by making provisions for a timescale within which consent can be given, or, as I think the Wales governance centre suggested, by a presumption in favour of a consent, unless consent is withheld within a certain time.

Draft Wales Bill

David Jones Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd February 2016 General Committees

[The Chair]

I advise hon. Members that about nine hon. Members are seeking to catch my eye before the end of the debate. I intend to call the winding-up speeches from 3.30 pm. The right hon. Member for Clwyd West was on his feet.

[Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con)]

Welcome to the Chair, Mr Hanson.

Before we adjourned, I was expressing both support for what the Wales Office is seeking to do via the Bill and concern about whether the Bill is the best vehicle for achieving that. The difficulty we have in this country is that, as other hon. Members have said, we have experienced piecemeal devolution over many years, going back to the original defective settlement imposed in 1999. We have asymmetric devolution, which that is not necessarily a bad thing. One of the strengths of this country is the inherent flexibility of its institutions, so I do not think that the asymmetry is the problem. I think that having had years of piecemeal devolution, we are continuing the process and keep tinkering with the devolution settlement. We are trying to fix the big end when what we need is a completely new engine.

I commend to members of the Grand Committee the work being carried out by the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee, of which I am a member, as are the hon. Members for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney and for Newport West. That Committee is carrying out an extensive inquiry into the British constitution, and evidence we have heard in recent weeks follows a pattern, which is that progress of further devolution is proceeding too quickly, with too little thought and, frankly, not in a holistic manner.

For example, we visited the Welsh Assembly some weeks ago and were told by Dame Rosemary Butler, the Presiding Officer, that changes to the devolution settlement are being rushed. Only yesterday we heard evidence from Lords Forsyth and Lang, former Scottish Secretaries, who expressed the same concern; and that concern was echoed in the report by the Wales Governance Centre published yesterday. I know there is anxiety and keenness within the Government that the Bill should proceed as quickly as possible, but I ask my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to give careful consideration to the evidence that is emerging, not only from the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee, but from external sources, that if we carry on at this pace of reform, we are going to make an even bigger mess.

Suggestions have been made, for example by the First Minister, that there should be a constitutional convention. That suggestion has been echoed to a certain extent by Lord Norton of Louth, who has called for a constitutional convocation. There have also been suggestions that a high commission on the constitution should be established. There is merit in giving consideration to all those suggestions.

What we are all seeking is a constitutional settlement that ultimately will settle the question of devolution. I remember when I arrived in this House in 2005 being told by Lord Hain, who was then Secretary of State, that the Bill that became the Government of Wales Act 2006 would settle the issue of devolution for Wales for a generation, and here we are talking about it again. There has to be a terminus to this process and it has to be a terminus that is fair and reflects all the interests of all the people of this country. I do not believe that the bolt-on approach represented by the Bill is the right approach.

I entreat my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State not to proceed at such great speed. I know that, from the point of view of the press, there is tremendous attraction in a Wales Bill being introduced to the House on 1 March—the St David’s day Bill. We need something much more substantial than that. While fully applauding my right hon. Friend’s desire to put right the mess that we inherited from previous Parliaments, I ask him to think about pausing the process. I ask him to give the whole process more time, to listen to the interested parties who are now increasingly making their voices heard, and to consider with his colleagues in Government putting in place a process that gives the people of this country the opportunity to have a devolution settlement that endures, not one that—God forbid—we have to revisit in five years’ time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Hon. Members]

Hooray!

[Mr David Jones]

I do not know if the hon. Gentleman is suggesting that all those issues should be devolved to Wales. I notice he mentioned gender recognition. Would that mean that someone could be a man in England and a woman in Wales?

[Mr Mark Williams]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman, if only because he has given me a chance to catch my breath. Would seeing those powers controlled in Wales mean the unravelling of our constitution and the end of the Union? Should we have not started from the principle that what is devolved to Scotland and Northern Ireland should be devolved to Wales? Better still, if one believes in subsidiarity, should we have not started with the principle that all powers are devolved, and it is for the Secretary of State and Westminster to argue the case for reserving them to Westminster?

However, we are where we are and we have this Bill. The hon. Member for Wrexham, who is not in his place, talked about the need for a constitutional convention and the right hon. Member for Clwyd West said he was open to the case for that. He described the Bill as a “bolt-on”. That and the devolutionary drift in other parts of the UK points to the need to look at such matters in the round. My party has always believed in a federal Britain, with home rule for Wales, and we need a constitutional convention to look into that.

Some have asserted that there should be a pause and, on balance, I agree. Too many concerns have been expressed, as the Select Committee will reveal at some point in the future. The question is: how much of a pause should there be? If a pause means that we lose a legislative slot for the Wales Bill to carry forward devolution, I would be immensely concerned. However, the issues on which the Secretary of State has openly reflected, such as looking again at the necessity test, or whatever form of words we use for that, ministerial consents and the scale of the list of reservations, are a big body of work that needs to be done urgently.

I would not say that the Secretary of State was disdainful when I talked about the need for robust dialogue with Assembly colleagues, but that dialogue needs to happen. I was privy to discussions between Westminster MPs representing the four parties and our Assembly colleagues and given the level of concern expressed since the draft Bill was published, that needs addressing. There are rumours of delays to the suspected date of Second Reading. I do not expect to get a date at the end of the Committee, but we need to be mindful of that and of the work that needs to be done.

The Secretary of State said that he wants the matters to be settled. The issue of a distinct jurisdiction has gained much traction in discussions, with various questions fired around the Committee today asking people to define what that means. I am not a lawyer—perhaps that is obvious—so I cannot give that definition.

--- Later in debate ---

[Byron Davies]

I understand the Secretary of State’s point. We have to realise that the scandal, as he calls it, of the regeneration investment fund for Wales was examined by the Wales Audit Office, which produced a damning report, and by the Welsh Assembly’s Public Accounts Committee, whose damning report was published only last week. I hope that I can have some faith in his suggestion that if we give the Welsh Government this responsibility, they will grow into a more responsible—

[Mr David Jones]

Does my hon. Friend agree that while it is all well and good to give the Assembly Government the responsibility for accounting for the money that they spend, tax-varying powers should not be conferred without the acquiescence of the Welsh people, as was the case with the Scottish people in 1997, and that therefore a referendum should be held on the issue?

[Byron Davies]

It is well known that I think that the people of Wales should have had a referendum on that issue, and it is in the public domain that I have made that known to the Government.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful for that point, which I accept in the spirit that the hon. Gentleman intended. I intended partly to give a light-hearted example of a constitutional convention, and partly to probe the motives of some who call for such a convention to ascertain whether they really want a Bill.

[Mr David Jones]

I fully appreciate my hon. Friend’s point. We do not want a talking shop that goes on for years. I also understand his possible suspicion of Members of other parties, such as the First Minister of Wales. However, given that Lord Norton of Louth, who is a well-respected Conservative peer, is calling for a constitutional convocation, should not the Wales Office at least consider that?

[Alun Cairns]

Certainly, the Wales Office and the Government will listen to all the points that are expressed, but I was merely highlighting the one example that we have in modern history of a constitutional convention and how complicated that became to give a context for the difficulty of trying to resolve some of those issues.

I remind people who have been extremely critical of the draft Bill, the St David’s day agreement and the process that the Secretary of State undertook, of the Richard Commission and the amount of time that that spent, only to be rejected by the Government of the day. That left us with a complex situation and the LCO mechanism. How many of us remember how complicated that was, whether we were in the Assembly or in Westminster? It is therefore a bit rich for some people to suggest that there is a simple and straightforward way of resolving the issues. We are keen to listen to and develop the debate, and the draft Bill was published in that spirit.

To underline the points that were made at the outset, there is a lot of rhetoric and misunderstanding. Some comments that have been made in Committee are simply inaccurate. I will pick up on some of them shortly, including those made by the hon. Member for Clwyd South. The draft Bill is ambitious and extends significant amounts of new powers to the Assembly. Matters that have been raised—be it the necessity test or the consents—are not about limiting Assembly powers. There is no Machiavellian plot to clip the Assembly’s wings. It is about giving the Assembly the powers, with two Governments that have responsibility for matters that relate to Wales: the legitimate Welsh Government, who will have legitimate powers over devolved matters, and the UK Government. Who knows? In the long-term future, there may be a Labour Administration, although I do not expect that to happen for at least another two or three general elections. However, in future, Opposition Members in this Committee Room, who may be Ministers in such an Administration, could be grateful for the powers that the Bill will grant to marry the interface between Wales and the UK Government.

Not unexpectedly, several Members raised the necessity test, and I will not have time to go round all those who mentioned it. Let me clear up the misunderstanding that exists. The necessity test applies only when the Assembly seeks to legislate in relation to England, in relation to reserved matters and in relation to underlying principles of criminal and private law. It has nothing to do with the Welsh Government legislating in Wales on a devolved matter. The necessity test is about when something touches reserved matters and matters that could be deemed to be the responsibility of the UK Government.

I will give a practical, straightforward example relating to the education of a child with special educational needs. If that child, from Wales, is being educated in a school in England, Estyn would naturally have the responsibility for inspecting the provision for that child in the school in England. It would not have the authority to close the school in England, because that would be a matter for the UK Government, but it would have the power to go to that school in England. The necessity test is about making the Welsh legislation effective when it crosses the English border. That is one practical example: there are a whole host of higher education institutions that have bases in England. The necessity test is about making the Welsh legislation effective as it applies to England. That is the scope and the scale of the necessity test. It is about enforcing legislation made by the Assembly.

Oral Answers to Questions

David Jones Excerpts

Wednesday 13th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Alun Cairns]

The right hon. Gentleman will be well aware of the rail transport summit that was held in north Wales last year. It talked about how we can best bring forward a bid to modernise the railway infrastructure across north Wales, and we look forward to that bid coming forward. Only last week I spoke to the chair of the north Wales economic ambition board to discuss the progress of that project.

[Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con)]

When I have previously questioned my hon. Friend and his colleague about the potential benefits to north Wales of the northern powerhouse, I have been disappointed to be told of a total lack of engagement on the part of the Welsh Assembly Government. Will my hon. Friend say whether they have changed their stance and are now more plugged in to the process?

[Alun Cairns]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for championing the benefits of the northern powerhouse. What is clear is that business sees the benefits. Local authorities also see the benefits. We encourage the Welsh Government to engage positively, because business does not recognise the administrative boundaries between the two.

Oral Answers to Questions

David Jones Excerpts

Wednesday 18th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

The important thing is to welcome the more effective partnership that now exists between the UK Government and the Welsh Government to deliver the inward investment. Of the new projects coming into Wales, 87% were secured on the basis of co-operation between the Welsh Government and the UK Government, and I have no hesitation in congratulating both.

[Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con)]

High-quality transport infrastructure is crucial to attracting inward investment. I was therefore delighted to see the Under-Secretary at the rail summit in Llandudno last week. Will my right hon. Friend convey to his colleagues in the Department for Transport the clear message that came out of that summit that north Wales regards itself as part of the northern powerhouse and demands an electrified railway line?

[Stephen Crabb]

My right hon. Friend has been a powerful champion and advocate for investment in transport infrastructure in north Wales. The summit that happened last week was very important, and the Transport Secretary has received loud and clear the message about the importance of investing in transport in north Wales.

Road and Rail Infrastructure (North Wales)

David Jones Excerpts

Wednesday 21st October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Dr Davies]

It certainly seems so, based on what we all know in north Wales.

Some 85% of cross-border commutes are currently by road, probably because rail is under-utilised, but despite that there has been a 46% increase in rail passenger numbers over the past decade, and evidence suggested that there could be a 21% transfer to rail if services were improved further. The roads in north Wales, which are already congested, are predicted to be subject to increased traffic. It is clear that the current transport infrastructure, whether road or rail, is inhibiting further growth in the area.

There is a strong perception in north Wales that the region’s needs are not fully recognised by a Cardiff-based governmental culture. Major infrastructure has been earmarked for south Wales in recent times—I need only mention the £1 billion “black route” for the M4 in south Wales and news that at least £12 million has potentially been wasted in buying up land that might not be used—but sadly we are yet to see the same commitment for north Wales.

Let me focus on rail. Improvements in speed, frequency and reliability are needed. Electrification brings the prospect of faster, greener and quieter trains, with more capacity and greater reliability. Purchase costs, track wear and tear and running costs are lower than for diesel. Unbelievably, only 10 miles of track were electrified in the whole of the UK during the previous Labour Government, and under 50% of lines are currently electrified, so we compare quite poorly with other developed nations. The aim must be that from my constituency one could, for example, reach London in two hours and key employment sites in the north-west in 45 minutes. Electrification of the north Wales line would allow the whole west coast franchise to operate on electrified lines for increased efficiency and flexibility.

[Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con)]

I too commend my hon. Friend for securing this important debate. Does he agree that a very effective piece of electrification would be the line between Bidston and Shotton, which would link two industrial zones, one on Wirral Waters and the other on Deeside?

[Dr Davies]

I do. I will mention that briefly, although it does not impact on my constituency as directly as on others.

There are opportunities for freight and for construction jobs. We need fast, direct connections to other key market destinations such as the Manchester and Liverpool enterprise zones and our airports and ports. Improvements would reduce pressure on an increasingly congested and polluted A55.

Greengauge 21, a not-for-profit company that exists to promote the benefits of a high-speed rail network, has already estimated that a relatively modest investment in electrification and track upgrade from Crewe and Warrington through to Holyhead in the next five-year funding settlement—control period 6, running from 2019 to 2024—would result in upwards of £500 million of benefits over the standard appraisal period of 60 years. I believe that an increasingly favourable benefit-cost ratio could be achieved as more benefits are quantified or if additional financial contributions can be secured. Savings could be delivered through upgrading the line alongside planned signalling improvements or electrification of other routes in the north-west.

The benefits of a railway line upgrade would be gained not only by north Wales and west Cheshire but further afield in the UK. In fact, £100 million of these benefits would be obtained by regional businesses being better able to work and trade with one another. Such benefits are key in an area with poor gross value added statistics. In terms of the northern powerhouse, the upgrade of the north Wales rail line could bring an additional £14 million benefit to Manchester, as well as enhancing the value of HS2. Of course, we hope that the Crewe hub will be in place there by 2027. Looking further into the future, an upgraded north Wales line could link with HS3, providing a fast link between the ports of Holyhead and Hull. In fact, should services to the European continent be operated on the new high-speed lines, we may even one day see services from Prestatyn to Paris or Rhyl to Rome.

When making the case for investment in the north Wales main line, we need to consider that the economic benefits might exceed what has already been outlined. That could partly be explained by current figures showing that passenger demand is being suppressed. There will be construction jobs that have not been taken into account. I am not convinced that the increased attractiveness of the region for investment that would be brought about has been fully quantified. We must also take into account reduced welfare bills and increased tax revenues through tackling the situation of those out of work and assisting areas of deep-seated deprivation. It is important to note that Greengauge 21 demonstrates that there would be a £1 billion disbenefit to the UK economy as a whole were electrification to take place only between Crewe and Chester. The reasoning is the cost to the economy that would arise from the need for a change of rolling stock at Chester for trains running to and from north Wales unless expensive dual electric-diesel trains are purchased.

Decisions for control period 6 are likely to be made over the next year. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Minister and to the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Claire Perry), for their meetings with me. I know that they are keen for cross-party support to make the case for the kind of investment that I have outlined. I also know that all will have been pleased by the interest shown by the Chancellor and the Secretary of State for Wales in the potential for upgrading the north Wales railway.

Last month, the North Wales Business Council held a rail modernisation business round table event and confirmed that direct access for businesses and the tourism sector to and from Manchester airport is the second priority behind electrification. This could happen at short notice through the use of existing lines. It would be a significant boost for north Wales and Chester, but it needs allocation of platform capacity at Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester airport.

There are also calls for direct services from north Wales to Liverpool and its airports as a result of the reopening of the Halton curve, to which the Chancellor pledged his support last year thanks to the lobbying efforts of my hon. Friend the Member for Weaver Vale (Graham Evans). It is due for delivery in 2018.

Further ambitions for rail include a new station at Deeside industrial park; better services to Manchester and Birmingham, which will be helped by electrification; more rolling stock for the west coast main line, to allow Euston services to continue on to north Wales at certain times of the day and not to terminate at Chester; further dualling for the Chester to Wrexham line; more frequent and faster services on the Wrexham to Bidston line; extension of the platforms at Flint; rolling stock that is clean and comfortable, with adequate seats and luggage space, good catering, wi-fi and power sockets; good car parking and park-and-ride facilities at stations; and easy access to stations by other modes of transport.

In 2010, the then Secretary of State for Transport said:

“good transport connectivity is essential for cities and regions to build and maintain their economic competitiveness, and regions served by rapid rail services prosper at the expense of those with inferior connections.”

As for roads, I have already said that the A55 is congested and that congestion is expected to grow by 33% by 2040. There is an increasing number of accidents, with 1,500 vehicles having been involved in crashes over the past year, which represents an increase of 44% since 2012-13. Over recent decades, communities located near the A55 have experienced benefits, but some areas are cut off, such as the populated coastal strip of my constituency, which has relatively poor links. This is an issue for business and commuters, but it also means that tourists bypass the area to reach towns and communities further west.

The Welsh Government’s draft national transport plan for 2015 identifies the need to improve connectivity and congestion; tackle substandard networks and pinch points; and introduce overtaking opportunities to improve road safety. It identifies constrictions along some sections of the A55 and A483 dual carriageways, which result in lower average speeds. Key sections experiencing lower speeds include the A55 Britannia bridge, roundabouts at junctions 15 and 16 of the A55, the 50 mph section of the A55 at Colwyn Bay, and the A494 at Deeside.

I referred earlier to 1 million cross-border commutes per month. Poor rail services result, in part, in congestion at the A494, which links the M56 to the A55, at Ewloe. The A494 is cut in half by the border. On the English side, major improvements have been made to the M56 and A494, taking motorway conditions through to the border with north Wales. That has improved travel times to north Wales, but only up to the border. Ironically, it has also improved employment links for workers from the north-west wishing to access jobs in Deeside in Wales, yet similar opportunities for Welsh workers do not yet exist, because of the lack of improvements to the A55 and the Welsh section of the A494.

The Assembly is currently considering two options, with a decision expected in a year’s time, but construction is four to five years away. It is important that we proceed with one of the options to upgrade the links to the A55 from the M56, but we really need improvements above and beyond that. We seriously need to consider hard-shouldering or a staged upgrade to the motorway, starting at the most congested eastern section; crawler lanes; redesigning and improving slip roads; and the possibility of a smart or managed motorway through the use of active traffic management. The Highways Agency has had some success with the reduction and variability of journey times, as well as with a reduction in accidents, fuel consumption and pollution.

I make a plea on behalf of north Denbighshire and Flintshire for an upgrade of the A548 from the border to Denbighshire. The A548 currently has a plethora of speed limits and bottlenecks. It could provide a fast link to the Deeside enterprise zone, Chester, the M56 and beyond for populated areas, including deprived areas in my constituency and Delyn, and it would also relieve pressure on the A55.

I pay tribute to the North Wales Economic Ambition Board, which brings together the six north Wales unitary authorities to help transform our economy, partly by championing infrastructure improvements. Councillor Dilwyn Roberts is its chairman and leader of Conwy County Borough Council, and he is keen to ensure cross-party support. The board’s lead for the work stream on connectivity and infrastructure, Rebecca Maxwell, is particularly engaged in making the case for rail modernisation, and she recently warned that road and rail links have to improve to stop the transport system “grinding to a halt” as the regional economy tries to grow. It is holding a north Wales rail summit for business and community leaders in Llandudno next month, supported by the Mersey Dee Alliance and the Cheshire and Warrington local enterprise partnership, to push for better rail services across the wider region.

In conclusion, north Wales needs and deserves investment in transport infrastructure to realise its potential for economic growth. As the Chancellor has said, north Wales should very much be considered part of the northern powerhouse. An integrated approach to planning capacity and improvements for both road and rail is needed across the border with aligned plans, not plans developed in isolation from one other. In view of the devolution of trunk roads in particular, this is a challenge for both Westminster and the Welsh Assembly Government. That challenge has proven difficult to overcome in recent years, but it is in the interests of the region as a whole that we all unite on a cross-party basis to deliver the improvements the region desperately needs.

Oral Answers to Questions

David Jones Excerpts

Wednesday 16th September 2015 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

The hon. Lady knows, because we discussed this on Monday, that I share her excitement and enthusiasm about the prospect of a spaceport coming to Llanbedr in her constituency. The Government are looking at various sites and various options, but I am in discussions with my colleagues at the Department for Transport about how we can secure that facility potentially for Wales.

[Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con)]

9. What assessment he has made of the potential effect on north Wales of the northern powerhouse.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Alun Cairns)]

The northern powerhouse is a fantastic opportunity for north Wales. My hon. Friend will appreciate that there is significant economic and business value in strengthening links in the region.

[Mr Jones]

Will my hon. Friend say whether Welsh Ministers are engaging positively with the United Kingdom Government in pursuing the northern powerhouse agenda, or are they maintaining their customary position that nothing that happens in Cheshire is of any interest to the people of Flintshire?

[Alun Cairns]

My right hon. Friend makes an important point. I must admit that I was disappointed with the Welsh Government’s attitude to the northern powerhouse, highlighting what they said was lowly aspiration and offering only trickle-down benefits to north Wales. The reality is that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor’s plans for the northern powerhouse are about building a strong economy and a strong United Kingdom.

Oral Answers to Questions

David Jones Excerpts

Wednesday 17th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Crabb]

The right hon. Lady makes an extremely useful and important point. We want the people of the UK to make an evidence-led decision. It is not for the Wales Office to commission such a report, but I suspect that many other independent organisations will be looking at such evidence, and we look forward to seeing the results.

[Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con)]

The provisions of the European Union Referendum Bill that relate to the dilution of purdah would apply no less to the Welsh Assembly Government than to Her Majesty’s Government. Will the Secretary of State please undertake to mention that to his right hon. Friend the Minister for Europe so that the people of Wales can expect a fair referendum?

[Stephen Crabb]

I have had several discussions with my right hon. Friend the Minister for Europe on issues relating to the EU referendum in Wales, and the important decision that has been taken is to avoid the referendum clashing with the Assembly elections.